Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[TyranAmiros]

I was listening to a comic book fans' podcast of the episode, and they raved about how the wink was "such a Black Canary thing." So I'm guessing it's a nod to or in line with the comics.

I have to things I want from Laurel this season: more independence and an earned victory. I want to see Laurel moving on from non-stop LFD (that's Lance Family Drama, which includes anything with Oliver, her father, Sara, etc) in favor of her own storyline where she actually succeeds. We've never seen her win a case. We've never seen her complete a full investigation. We need to see her do something, not merely be told she can.

[EmeraldArcher]

If I had any interest in LL, I think the only redemptive path for her in my opinion of her as a character is in her friendships with the other women on TA. I don't believe that KC is ever going to interact with SA/OQ in a way that isn't overtly hostile or inappropriately "WE'RE ENDGAME!" now that's he's with Felicity. I've never been convinced of her warmth or even her trademark compassion, not even when she was at CNRI. I could appreciate her being great friends with Thea and Felicity as a supporting character, as long as there is 0% of the LL hautiness evident in their interactions. She can be as bitchy to OQ as she wants, but there has to be some redeeming aspect. I do not want a LL/OQ close friendship, as they've proven they just can't pull it off.

[KenyaJ]

I was listening to a comic book fans' podcast of the episode, and they raved about how the wink was "such a Black Canary thing." So I'm guessing it's a nod to or in line with the comics.

 

The wink itself didn't bother me at all. Had it just been a silent moment, I would have found it cute and charming. But the writers ruined the moment with the "You're so strong" comment. Instead of showing, they had to tell, which always sucks.

[statsgirl]

I adore Laurel in season one. Superficially because Katie was so pretty. But I often find myself watching Laurel episodes of season one. Which is why I feel that it's unfair to blame Katie for Laurel. It's hard to act when nothing makes sense.

I agree that the writing often was problematic but it has been for everyone on the show. Just look at what they did to Dinah, and to Quentin in 3B.  The problems were made worse by the fact that KC only ever played the top note and so the fip-flopping was even more evident.  Just look at Susanna Thompson or Willa to see what a nuanced actress did the with bad writing.  Thea was awful in s1 but there was still a lot of sympathy for her.  An added problem was that she was told that Oliver/Laurel were end game so even with Tommy, a relationship that made Laurel the most likable she's been, it always seemed like Oliver was the one she wanted and she would dump Tommy in a second if she could get Oliver. As she did at the end of the season.

 

I agree with EmaralArcher that her female friendships could help redeem her, as could her setting up a new CNRI.  The SWFing of Sara got her the Black Canary persona but it's too thin to give her a real motivation to be a superhero as opposed to just a vigilante. She has to want to do it for reasons other than finally finding a place for herself.

[aslightjump]

What's wrong with having the same reasons as Oliver? Why is protecting the city enough for him and Diggle but not Laurel? Is it because she hasn't said it ad nauseum? Laurel is all about saving the little guy, this has been a character trait since day one with CNRI.

 

And I know you're talking about your opinion of her, but the whole thing about Laurel needed to be redeemed just bugs. To an audience, Laurel might need to be redeemed. As a character, Laurel has done nothing so horrible she needs redemption except become an addict, which she constantly works on. She's not, you know, a serial killer. 

 

The wink was very Dinah and the 'you're so strong' was lame. Literally ANY OTHER LINE GUYS.

 

ETA: Lying to her dad. That's one thing Laurel would need to be redeemed for. Which, again, she is working towards.

Edited October 14, 2015 by aslightjump

[apinknightmare]

I don't think she's working toward redemption for lying about Sara. Maybe things will change this ep, but she and Quentin seemed to be past it last week.

I really hope wanting to bring Sara back isn't part of some dumbass plan to make amends with Quentin, although I can't think of any good reason for that, so.

[statsgirl]

What's wrong with having the same reasons as Oliver? Why is protecting the city enough for him and Diggle but not Laurel? Is it because she hasn't said it ad nauseum? Laurel is all about saving the little guy, this has been a character trait since day one with CNRI.

Laurel was about saving the little guy at CNRI but then she spent two seasons prosecuting.  She's still prosecuting.  (And even at CNRI she was less than completely strict about the law.)

 

Laurel put on the black leather because beating up people was the only way to quell the fire inside her (stereotypical addict) and because she wanted to be like Sara.  Oliver became a vigilante to right his father's wrongs, Diggle became a vigilante to protect Oliver, Roy did it to save people like the Hood saved him.  Sara did it "so that no woman should have to suffer at the hands of a man".

 

I need something from Laurel, some speech, that takes her from prosecuting the little people and beating up bad guys to make herself feel better to doing it to help people in need.  Right now, her stated motivation is that she's doing it for her own ego and her unstated one seems to be she's doing it because she wants to be one of the cool kids.

[Primal Slayer]

Laurels motivation changed from anger to honoring her sister to wanting to save the city.

[apinknightmare]

Non-snarky question, because I honestly don't remember: did she ever talk about that? The last stated reason I recall was because it made her feel better.

[HighwayFlower]

That's what they tell us, but once again, have not shown us. Anger I get, but I only ever saw her being jealous of Sara and wanting to be her, not honoring her. The only motive I would buy is that she wants people like the dumb wink kid, to admire her.

[statsgirl]

Laurels motivation changed from anger to honoring her sister to wanting to save the city.

I've heard KC and the EPs say it in interviews I don't remember Laurel saying anything of that on the show.  IIRC the last I heard was about quelling the fire in her and I really need something to make being the Black Canary about more than herself if she's going to be a true superhero.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Disregard

Edited October 14, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[Primal Slayer]

Non-snarky question, because I honestly don't remember: did she ever talk about that? The last stated reason I recall was because it made her feel better.

Basically the entire time Oliver was "dead" was leading up to it. I think it mightve been Canaries when Oliver confronts Laurel about suiting up and she comes back with heroes fight for their cities and he tells her she isn't a hero then she says maybe they shouldn't talk or something like that.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[aslightjump]

Laurel wasn't jealous of Sara. Well, let me rephrase. I think Laurel was jealous of Sara's ability to rise out of the ashes as well as she did, because her little sister was a hero in Laurel's eyes. Sara inspired Laurel. Laurel wasn't trying to steal from her sister, she was trying to honor her, and I think originally she got lost from that path. (if I'm missing a scene please tell me, I'd love to discuss this because I think it was something complex that the Arrow writers really could have done something with.) Sara made Laurel want to be strong. I think Laurel's original mistake was pinning her entire motivation for taking up her sister's mantle on Sara herself. That wasn't fair to anybody.

 

But by the end of the Brick arc, when she helped Arsenal save the city? She was doing it for the city. I'm sorry but I don't understand this concept of Laurel's wearing a mask for herself being selfish. She's helping people.  Oliver's stated motivation is to be a hero for Tommy. Diggle's is to be a hero for his brother, and then his family. Laurel's was be a hero for Sara. They all drew inspiration from people, and then they got their own.

 

Would a big speech from Laurel be nice? Yeah, that'd be great, I'd love to hear what's going on in her brain when she's out there. Maybe that's something she and Thea can talk about. Why is Thea out there? To defend the city? To not waste the skills she's learned? Because she can? Cause I'm gonna be honest, and this is my unpopular opinion: because I can is honestly a good enough reason to be a hero for me. Granted, being a 'hero' is so hard to define, but going out there and fighting the good fight because you have the ability to do so and you want to help is enough.

 

Oliver places a lot of self-worth in being the Arrow, as did Roy. They also wear the mask because, like Laurel, they want to help people. But Laurel was always a hero, she didn't have to wear a mask to prove that. The first season episode where she helped out that little kid, standing up against villains who threatened her because she refused to be cowed, because she wanted to uphold the law and defend the weak. Then in the second season she completely falls down the well but is the one who figures it out about Sebastian Blood. In the third season, she steps into vigilantism. 

 

Also, Laurel pretty much implies that she would have kept Black Canary-ing with or without the Arrow's help.Or, what Primal Slayer said.

Edited October 14, 2015 by aslightjump

[Chaser]

I just wanted one conversation that would explain why she felt that she could take her sisters place. An ADA whose only previous fighting experience was self-defense lessons in high school felt that she could take the place her expertly-trained-in-hell sister. Why?

 

Laurel wasn't working at some flower shop, powerless to stop the crime. She wasn't working at a legal aid office with her hands tied. She is an ADA. She works within the justice system already.

 

The only reason they gave us is she has a fridge light in her and she gets a high off of it. That's not character growth. That's arrogance and addiction.

Edited October 14, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[HighwayFlower]

Don't forget, she was always destined to wear the mask! I bet she felt it in her bones.

[Hipkarma]

I will forever cringe at Laurel's grin when Sara gave Laurel her jacket end of s2. So many shades of wrong.

[Starfish35]

Don't forget, she was always destined to wear the mask! I bet she felt it in her bones.

That line was really really stupid and fourth wall breaking.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[KenyaJ]

Don't forget, she was always destined to wear the mask! I bet she felt it in her bones.

Along with the fire inside her? The one that only beating people up quenched?

I've already ranted about the idiocy of not dealing with the ADA/justice system conundrum before she even put on the mask. So I won't repeat myself, but not dealing with that leaves the audience to fill in the blanks why she took up the vigilante life. We can all speculate and reason as much as we want, but the fact is that the show has never clearly defined her motivation. Consequently, figuring out what it is is a Rorschach test that mostly depends on how you already felt about Laurel.

[hogwash]

That was so unbelievably manipulative and frankly, very evil. Why are they writing her like this????

[Delphi]

I honestly don't mind.

And here's something, I enjoyed Laurel this week! There I said it! No one shoot.

[Morrigan2575]

Die Bitch die!

[bethy]

Ugh. Laurel.

[Primal Slayer]

That was so unbelievably manipulative and frankly, very evil. Why are they writing her like this????

While I can see it being selfish, it being manipulative and evil I can't see. She came across a way to bring her sister back to life and she wants to take it. Should they have spent more then 10 seconds on it and talked about it more in depth? Hell freaking yes.

[hogwash]

It definitely needed to be a longer conversation/scene. Or even just an earlier scene where Laurel is concerned about Thea that didn't include the light bulb over her head showing her getting the idea to put Sara in the Pit. I mean, she tells Oliver and Thea that she's gonna take Thea somewhere to take her mind off her issues. Thea agrees that she needs some time off and specifically mentions that she doesn't want to be anywhere near a hot tub. Then Laurel tells her they're going to Nanda Parbat and she brings the subject up by first saying that Thea might be able to get help with her issues there. But considering she just found out about what happened to Thea, how would she possibly know that? She's not completely heartless and I'm sure she does care about Thea and wants to help her. But that's not remotely how that scene came off. To me, anyway.

 

Oliver just go some vague bullshit from Malcolm about the Pit's effect. Laurel sees firsthand what it does to someone she purportedly cares about and she decides to do it to Sara and ropes Thea into it in a really gross way.  

[Primal Slayer]

I think Laurel is fully trying to have her cake and eat it to and try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone, help cure Thea and bring Sara back at the same time and them knowing a way to help Sara as well. But I'm already cringing at the next epsiode.

[yellowfred]

Sometimes I feel like there must be a jar in the writers' room where you have to put in five dollars if you do Laurel any favors in the script.  

[dtissagirl]

But if she kills two birds, isn't that a murder-suicide Canary thing or

[HighwayFlower]

Ok.... The writers really hate her. They have too. What a selfish and manipulative bitch!

[Cerulean Blue]

Along with the fire inside her? The one that only beating people up quenched?

I've already ranted about the idiocy of not dealing with the ADA/justice system conundrum before she even put on the mask. So I won't repeat myself, but not dealing with that leaves the audience to fill in the blanks why she took up the vigilante life. We can all speculate and reason as much as we want, but the fact is that the show has never clearly defined her motivation. Consequently, figuring out what it is is a Rorschach test that mostly depends on how you already felt about Laurel.

This is what is the most frustrating thing about Laurel's character to me. With basically every other character, we see their motivation. I understand why Oliver does what he does. I understand why Diggle joined his crusade. I understand why Felicity went from "I'm only doing this to save Walter" to wanting to continue to participate in the mission after Walter was found. I understand Sara's and Roy's and Thea's motivations. But Laurel...Laurel, I don't get. Probably because basically nothing in her backstory has any connection to vigliante-ing (vigilantism?).

 

Why did Laurel decide to be a vigilante? Is it because she has a fire inside of her that can either be quenched by 1. drugs/alcohol or 2. beating people up (which is the only actual onscreen motivation we have, straight from the horse's moth)? Is it because she's invested in saving the world (not actually shown onscreen, but has been told to us by various characters in classic "tell, don't show" fashion)? Is it because comics!Laurel is super-cool and we're supposed to just pretend like this transates to the show (not really feasible for anyone who hasn't read the comics)?

 

Episode 4.02 seems to, once again, contradict the characterization of Laurel as self-sacrificing and heroic. She listens to Oliver explain that using the Lazarus Pit has messed up Thea, she lies to both of them about wanting to help Thea recover, then she uses Thea's trauma to assuage her own pain re: Sara's death (who, btw, Laurel hasn't seemed particularly broken up over for the past year).

 

I realize Arrow isn't exactly the most well-written show on television, but come on. The writers have to know how badly Laurel comes off in all of this, right?

[kismet]

Don't forget, she was always destined to wear the mask! I bet she felt it in her bones.

Dammit, they really do need to get an xray machine down in the foundry with all of these in the bones origins & rationales. I really want radiographic evidence for all of these theories.

[foreverevolving]

Every once in awhile I will have a twitter showdown with a Laurel fan.. and.. *shakes head*

This person is actually saying that Laurel is 100% correct in digging out Sara and wanting to resurrect the one year old dead body, and that it is exactly the same as what Oliver did last year. just...

yea I really need to stay away from twitter, it does little good for my eyes from all the rolling.

Edited October 15, 2015 by foreverevolving

[catrox14]

Just GO AWAY, Laurel Lance. You have failed this viewer.

[KirkB]

To begin with, I find it hilarious that Oliver (and Thea, and Diggle, and Felicity) have all neglected to mention to Laurel, in the past six months or so, that Thea got run through by Ra's, was near death, and was brought back by a magic pool. They were AT Nanda Parbat for that very purpose, and apparently she never asked why and none of them bothered to tell her. She's a friend and part of their team, but they don't seem to think enough of her to let her in on the fairly crucial information which explains a lot of what is happening to them now.

 

Now, I fully understand Laurel wanting to bring Sara back. I have a sister too. If she died and I had just learned about a hot tub which could potentially bring her back I would consider it, though I would not immediately run to the cemetery and start digging her up. Better yet, if I had a friend who was the daughter of the guy who controlled the damn thing I'd be asking her to get me a meeting with him as soon as possible, even if he was a monster I hated who had tricked that friend into killing my sister in the first place. Is it selfish? Sure. But it's her sister. It's not what she's doing or why I have an issue with, it's how. Laurel isn't doing any research or weighing her options, she's charging headlong at the problem and hoping she can bully it into submission as she always does. Plus she's sneaking around everyone else's back to do it, which never ends well for anyone.

 

On the other hand I really want Sara back, even if she is just going to leave for LoT. And frankly I have no real issue with them potentially damaging or destroying Laurel's character to do it. I already can't stand her. They really can't make me hate her more.

Edited October 15, 2015 by KirkB

[apinknightmare]

Laurel didn't go with them to NP when Thea got LPed, she went with them after. Not sure why she thought they were all gone, though, since they deleted that scene.

Like you, I understand Laurel wanting Sara back. I'd understand her actually following through with it if there weren't warning signs that it's a bad idea (no matter how "small" those might seem) and GRAVEDIGGING involved. These are the actions of a person who is still desperate with grief, not a person who has had a year to deal with said death.

Edited October 15, 2015 by apinknightmare

[KirkB]

Laurel didn't go with them to NP when Thea got LPed, she went with them after. Not sure why she thought they were all gone, though, since they deleted that scene.

 

Oops, my mistake. I edited my post. Thanks, apinknightmare. That aside, it still doesn't really explain why nobody in the group bothers to tell Laurel anything, though this episode might point at a reason. Laurel takes snippets of information and runs with them, which is good for investigating but not so much when there are secret death cults, super powered people and magic involved.

Edited October 15, 2015 by KirkB

[KirkB]

Good job then if that's what they're up to.

[apinknightmare]

Oops, my mistake. I edited my post. Thanks, apinknightmare. That aside, it still doesn't really explain why nobody in the group bothers to tell Laurel anything, though this episode might point at a reason. Laurel takes snippets of information and runs with them, which is good for investigating but not so much when there are secret death cults, super powered people and magic involved.

I think that ever since they decided to do this resurrection, they had to be really careful about Laurel getting any kind of whiff of there being an LP. As much as I would've liked to see her think about what she's doing, her deciding to do this after actually weighing her options seems just as bad as being impulsive about it.

[Lady Calypso]

I just wish the episode ended differently. I would have been happier with Laurel if she had thought about it; maybe the last scene isn't her and Thea digging up Sara's coffin, but Laurel sitting at it, talking to the grave about what she wants to do. I just needed a moment of her contemplating what she is about to do, instead of having it cut to her deciding seemingly right away to bring Sara back. I have no problem with her wanting to do it; I just wanted to see her talk it out. Then we could have had her next episode, packing with Thea and telling Oliver that they're going to a spa. At least if we had that, it would have been less...cringeworthy and anger-inducing. 

 

See what this show has resorted me to? Asking for an additional Laurel scene just so things make more sense! 

[writersblock51]

I've actually started to wonder if they're playing to both sides of the audience. Maybe they think the people who love Laurel can defend anything she does, so that frees them up to constantly make her look awful to appease the fans who hate her.

 

Then they're aces at their jobs!

 

Meanwhile, I'm more convinced than ever that the writers don't enjoy writing for the character at all.  I also think Laurel as Black Canary will remain on the show for it's entire run, though that is the last thing that I want.   So we're going to see more of this kind of writing, not less.

 

If the show went with the angle that Laurel is a headstrong, impulsive person with mental issues, then I could buy what I'm seeing.  But she acts like that person while we still get hit with anvils that she's heroic, brave, strong, smart and 'trying to save the world.'   This is more of what I see on screen not matching up, at all, with what we're told is going on with her.

[AyChihuahua]

Look on the bright side, when Oliver finds out what she's done we're likely to get an awesome new "Oh Laurel" gif!

 

She is such a ridiculous character.

[Chaser]

Forever amused that KC only knows one way to stand. Every emotion earns the same stance.

 

She is such a great actress.

Edited October 15, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[SonofaBiscuit]

In the Laurel crosses her arms drinking game, we'd all be massively drunk by the half-way point of the episode.  But I guess if the director is okay with it, we're never going to get anything different.

Edited October 15, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[statsgirl]

If the show went with the angle that Laurel is a headstrong, impulsive person with mental issues, then I could buy what I'm seeing.  But she acts like that person while we still get hit with anvils that she's heroic, brave, strong, smart and 'trying to save the world.'   This is more of what I see on screen not matching up, at all, with what we're told is going on with her.

That's the problem for me.  If they had her being headstrong and impulsive and the consequences of that, I could get behind that.  If they had gone down the grey routine in s2 and made her grey and somewhat amoral as Moira was, I could have got behind that too.  But it's when they keep telling us that she's strong&brave (yes, I can see that) and always right, that I have to stop thinking about her motivations and just lean back and enjoy it for what it is.

 

And that graveyard scene was deliciously campy.

[Chaser]

In the Laurel crosses her arms drinking game, we'd all be massively drunk by the half-way point of the episode.  But I guess if the director is okay with it, we're never going to get anything different.

I haven't watch a S1 episode in quite awhile, but I don't remember her being this bad at all.

 

I noticed the stiffness in her acting in S2 but I wasn't sure if that was a side effect of the physical changes. 

[tarotx]

I think this set of writers think they can do whatever with Laurel as long as Laurel can dress up as the Black Canary at night. [Edited by mod.]

 

Laurel is a troubled character in every sense of the word and they rarely allow her to deal with the Consequences past the arc episodes. They happen and then are gone. This year more needs to happen of they want her to grow at all. we'll see what happens and then I can judge this arc better but so far no reflection or true questioning to get honest info :(

Edited October 15, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Primal Slayer]

While the writers failed at properly conveying it, i can only use myself to fill in the character blanks. Laurel had come to terms with Saras death but hearing of this magic cure just brought back all those emotions and made her go backwards temporarily. I could only pray that they lesson the blow next week by writing it better but i know they won't with how fast they already played this storyline.

[Sakura12]

Another issue I have is, it seem like Sara's going to be the one dealing with the consequences of Laurel's choice. While Laurel will probably only have to deal with her dad and Oliver being mad at her for an ep or two then everything will be fine for her, like it always is. 

[Carrie Ann]

Right, there are always things to point at and say, "Well, Laurel paid for this bad choice in this way!" But the truth is that someone else always pays MORE. In S1, it was Tommy, every time, including his own death. In S2 everyone tried to clean up after her for awhile, and then after she heaped on enough abuse, they stopped bothering for all of a minute. And not being coddled caused her to actually snap out of it. Oh, she also lost her job for a few weeks, but then got it back via blackmail, for which she faced no consequences. In S3, Quentin, Oliver, and Roy were the ones who paid for every one of her stupid decisions (not to mention Felicity and Dig, on a meta level). Sure, Quentin was mad at Laurel when he learned she'd lied, but he was way madder at Oliver. Oliver was the one he targeted for arrest, who had to go into hiding, who lost his secret identity. Roy is the one who, as a result, had to leave town for good and give up his own identity. Laurel? Well, her dad scowls at her sometimes.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Happy Harpy]

I understand why Laurel wants her sister back. It's her sister. I have siblings, some in the true sense of the words, some we just share the same blood. But if they were dead and I had a chance to bring them back, I think I would jump on it, if only because of my parents and the unbearable, unspeakable pain that comes with losing a child. The one thing I wouldn't do is keep them in a vegetative state for the sake of them being "alive",

and it won't be Sara's case.

.

 

So I was annoyed, nothing more, at the obvious maneuver "Please forgive us for killing Sara for Laurel and see, she gets you Sara back, please accept her". Not gonna work, not when Laurel is in the lair with her snotty attitude, not when the writers broke up Diggle/Oliver and dismiss Felicity/Diggle in order to give her something to do and someone to talk to, in a word not as long as she's ruining my favorite thing on the show, Original Team Arrow.

 

But I expected yet another case of "Laurel does something because the screenplay says so", and not for the writing to be so horrible. Not only the writers failed imo to convey that Laurel loved Sara beyond the blood bond/wanted to honor her and not take her place, they also failed to connect Quentin with her wish, which would have given selfless undertones to Laurel's actions. They should have used Laurel's guilt for lying to her father about Sara's death, they should have showed Quentin falling apart in front of Sara's picture or anything and have Laurel hear him, or even have Laurel talk about him -for example, in that car scene with Diggle, to express what losing a child does to a parent.

And it sounds like she's using Thea, the only person imo she has had a friendly and established relationship with since mid-season 1 (considering that Thea felt so alone after the Queen Gambit and had no one but a gravestone to turn to, I don't buy an earlier close connection). Thea who is vulnerable and unstable right now. How could the writers let any margin of interpretation that Thea was merely a pretext?

 

As always with Laurel, there's a right choice, there's a wrong choice, and the writers make the worst choice. Imho.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Happy Harpy