S03.E04: Unlikely Pairing

[Sew Sumi]

Quote

Leah and Mike discuss the strange alliance between the Nation of Islam and the Church of Scientology; two guests, a former member and a current member of the Nation of Islam, share their personal feelings about the collaboration.

Airs December 11, 2018

Edited December 12, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[auntieminem]

I guess I have not been paying any attention to Nation of Islam but I didn't know they are aligned with Scientology. I need to do a bit more reading about this.

[ramble]

There’s a lot to digest here. Inviting the Nation of Islam into the cult family seems like a very deliberate attempt to capture members and money dressed up in a disguise of diversity and outreach. I like that they brought up love bombing. I learned about that when I did research on psychopathy. 

And I just want to say, yet again, go Leah. Damn that woman is not afraid to stand up to anyone! Thats Remini, Mr. Farrakhan, Remini. I have a feeling Miscavige watches this show with his serfs nearby to scream at and/or hit as needed. 

[sigmaforce86]

I can't help but believe the explanation comes down to "follow the money", I'm very sure Miscavig is using Farrakhan and Farrakhan is allowing it (or maybe doesn't even realize it or a little of both) because he  and his upper level lackeys are getting some royal treatment and payoffs.  Even though we know Davey likes his wealth I'd also be willing to bet any money that goes out to Farrakhan is heavily re-accounted in COS's favor and is just a drop in the buckey compared to what they're raking in from Nation of Islam members.

I think I feel sorriest for the second guest Hector who got the bums rush along with a character assassination just for questioning some things.  

Looked up Topani Grey after seeing the "In Memory" tag at the end of the show, it was taped in July and she died in November of "natural causes".  Not much other info available (not that the family owes us all the intimate details) but it is a shame, she was still young and was so nice and well spoken when she appeared last night.

https://tonyortega.org/2018/12/12/tiponi-grey-1968-2018-a-woman-who-told-off-scientology-for-its-lack-of-compassion/

[libgirl2]

2 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I can't help but believe the explanation comes down to "follow the money", I'm very sure Miscavig is using Farrakhan and Farrakhan is allowing it (or maybe doesn't even realize it or a little of both) because he  and his upper level lackeys are getting some royal treatment and payoffs.  Even though we know Davey likes his wealth I'd also be willing to bet any money that goes out to Farrakhan is heavily re-accounted in COS's favor and is just a drop in the buckey compared to what they're raking in from Nation of Islam members.

I think I feel sorriest for the second guest Hector who got the bums rush along with a character assassination just for questioning some things.  

Looked up Topani Grey after seeing the "In Memory" tag at the end of the show, it was taped in July and she died in November of "natural causes".  Not much other info available (not that the family owes us all the intimate details) but it is a shame, she was still young and was so nice and well spoken when she appeared last night.

https://tonyortega.org/2018/12/12/tiponi-grey-1968-2018-a-woman-who-told-off-scientology-for-its-lack-of-compassion/

I was just going to look her up. Thanks for sharing. 

That was quite a show! How long will the Nation of Islam go with Scientology? What happens when they are told there is no God? Will they really be willing to give up Allah? 

[3girlsforus]

18 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I was just going to look her up. Thanks for sharing. 

That was quite a show! How long will the Nation of Islam go with Scientology? What happens when they are told there is no God? Will they really be willing to give up Allah? 

This really stunned me. Even in the promotional video Tony Muhammad says Scientology makes him a better Muslim. I can’t imagine how that is true since Scientology teaches there is no Allah. I’m a Christian so to me that would be the same thing as joining a group that says there is no Christ but it makes me a better Christian. That is impossible. I wonder how many members of the Nation of Islam realize what Scientology really teach. Does someone like Tony Muhammad not know or does he just love the power and attention so he doesn’t care. 

[BonnieD]

I'm interested in the Nation's reaction to this episode. I just did a search. Other than a number of articles about the episode itself, I couldn't find any official response/backlash from Nation of Islam. This has to have ruffled feathers. Here's hoping at least some of those who attend have just become aware what their hierarchy is up to!

[Pondlass1]

The Co$ with all their millions won’t even hand out free turkeys at thanksgiving?  

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, 3girlsforus said:

This really stunned me. Even in the promotional video Tony Muhammad says Scientology makes him a better Muslim. I can’t imagine how that is true since Scientology teaches there is no Allah. I’m a Christian so to me that would be the same thing as joining a group that says there is no Christ but it makes me a better Christian. That is impossible. I wonder how many members of the Nation of Islam realize what Scientology really teach. Does someone like Tony Muhammad not know or does he just love the power and attention so he doesn’t care. 

Maybe its both? 

[AmyA]

This episode made my head hurt. Scientology is just so, so white. Hubbard is on record for being racist, with especially nasty words for black and Chinese people. How can any NoI member get up the bridge and hear that shit and not dip out? The complete disregard of the NoI teachings of independence, self reliance, and critical thinking goes against the strength and empowerment that these people strive for. Not to mention Hubbard's dismissal of Allah, to whom their entire faith is dedicated. This isn't like random people looking for spiritual guidance or self help. This is a group of people who already have teachings and processes in place for that kind of stuff. Strict ones! It just doesn't make sense.

[Rlb8031]

5 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I can't help but believe the explanation comes down to "follow the money", I'm very sure Miscavig is using Farrakhan and Farrakhan is allowing it (or maybe doesn't even realize it or a little of both) because he  and his upper level lackeys are getting some royal treatment and payoffs.  Even though we know Davey likes his wealth I'd also be willing to bet any money that goes out to Farrakhan is heavily re-accounted in COS's favor and is just a drop in the buckey compared to what they're raking in from Nation of Islam members.

I think I feel sorriest for the second guest Hector who got the bums rush along with a character assassination just for questioning some things.  

Looked up Topani Grey after seeing the "In Memory" tag at the end of the show, it was taped in July and she died in November of "natural causes".  Not much other info available (not that the family owes us all the intimate details) but it is a shame, she was still young and was so nice and well spoken when she appeared last night.

https://tonyortega.org/2018/12/12/tiponi-grey-1968-2018-a-woman-who-told-off-scientology-for-its-lack-of-compassion/

I'm positive this is it. The NOI was never set up to make its leader rich the way some other religions/ charismatic religious leaders have been. While Farrakhan lives far better than most of his flock, he can't preach self-reliance and care for others while also flying around in a fleet of private jets and having multiple gated compounds. I'm sure that he looked at this as a way to stack some cash for his family to assure generational wealth before the end of his life. I also think that he believes he's smarter than DM, knows that he's being used, and will attempt to turn the tables on him at some future point in time. When that time comes, he will have added significant indoctrination, fair gaming, disconnection, and slavish adherence to the NOI repertoire and will also have gotten rid of any naysayers. So I'm betting that he's playing the long con here, and not the other way around. 

[Lugal]

5 hours ago, sigmaforce86 said:

I can't help but believe the explanation comes down to "follow the money", I'm very sure Miscavig is using Farrakhan and Farrakhan is allowing it (or maybe doesn't even realize it or a little of both) because he  and his upper level lackeys are getting some royal treatment and payoffs.  Even though we know Davey likes his wealth I'd also be willing to bet any money that goes out to Farrakhan is heavily re-accounted in COS's favor and is just a drop in the buckey compared to what they're raking in from Nation of Islam members.

And my gut tells me that Farrakhan is using Scientology "tech" entrench his own power and authority.  After all the second guest said one of the things they smeared him with was supposedly calling for the assassination of Farrakhan.

[libgirl2]

25 minutes ago, Lugal said:

And my gut tells me that Farrakhan is using Scientology "tech" entrench his own power and authority.  After all the second guest said one of the things they smeared him with was supposedly calling for the assassination of Farrakhan.

Its all about that power. 

[2727]

35 minutes ago, AmyA said:

This is a group of people who already have teachings and processes in place for that kind of stuff. Strict ones! It just doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me, either, but I think at least the regular NOI members who study Scientology don't pay for lessons the way normal Scientologists would, nor are they continually pestered to donate. Parishioners like Leah are dunned to donate on their behalf.

But even if they view it as general self help-ish ideas, done at the direction of their own spiritual leaders, there must come a point when their eyes will open pretty wide.

[funky-rat]

1 hour ago, AmyA said:

This episode made my head hurt. Scientology is just so, so white. Hubbard is on record for being racist, with especially nasty words for black and Chinese people. How can any NoI member get up the bridge and hear that shit and not dip out? The complete disregard of the NoI teachings of independence, self reliance, and critical thinking goes against the strength and empowerment that these people strive for. Not to mention Hubbard's dismissal of Allah, to whom their entire faith is dedicated. This isn't like random people looking for spiritual guidance or self help. This is a group of people who already have teachings and processes in place for that kind of stuff. Strict ones! It just doesn't make sense.

Or maybe they're figuring that the NOI people won't have the money to get to the uber-double-secret-Xenu stuff.

[iMonrey]

I learned a lot about Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam this episode, but I'm more interested in the upcoming episode about Shelly Miscavige. 

[Sew Sumi]

Yup, Where's Shelly is next week!

[tobeannounced]

I was shocked to learn there are so few NOI in the US and that COS is even smaller. I guess the way it's talked about, it seems like it's so much more widespread and powerful, but those membership numbers are pretty dinky.

[Rlb8031]

3 hours ago, tobeannounced said:

I was shocked to learn there are so few NOI in the US and that COS is even smaller. I guess the way it's talked about, it seems like it's so much more widespread and powerful, but those membership numbers are pretty dinky.

NOI has a LOT of competition. Many folks start out in the nation, become disillusioned and default to a more mainstream (Sunni, Shiite, etc.) Muslim faith.  Those that are in it for the black nationalism aspect sometimes move on to the other sect that Leah met with the (UNOI?). Its hard holding on to adherents when there are so many options. 

[CrystalBlue]

https://mystylenews.com/tv-movies/tiponi-grey-death-what-happened-to-her-following-leah-remini-scientology-aftermath-episode/

[Mardo2044]

I find it interesting that AME indicated the community would benefit from the drug programs (assumed for free) and CO$ said no.  So basically, not interested in helping community.  The money spent on buildings is just an asset, does not benefit anyone.  I still don't get how CO$ thinks they are going to money from these poor communities.  I don't really get the upside for them besides continue to fool their cos members that a building means outreach, which it does not

[Yeah No]

I'm not seeing how NOI and Scientology can be melded together given the contradictions between them, but I agree that doing so is all about power from Farrakhan's point of view.  Very sorry to hear about Tiponi Grey's untimely death.  No specific cause was given, but usually "a long illness" suggests cancer.

On a more shallow note, I loved Mike's jacket/shirt/tie combo. in this episode, but Leah's lips were looking more grotesque than usual.  The clip of her 20 years ago made me realize just how ridiculous they look now.  I don't know what kind of "lip dysmorphic disorder" makes a woman think she needs lip injections when she already has beautiful lips.  That look will not age well on her, I hate to say. 

[sigmaforce86]

19 hours ago, funky-rat said:

Or maybe they're figuring that the NOI people won't have the money to get to the uber-double-secret-Xenu stuff.

Good point,.  Plus they can be delayed for years while still shelling out big bucks.  I can't remember the exact quotes now but didn't Leah, Mike and various guests in several past episodes say that a COS tactic was having people re-do levels by making various claims like there were changes to the wording of the course so people end up descending instead of ascending and paying for the same level or levels again?  And at the really high levels the info is incredibly protected  I imagine they can keep people from NOI hopping around for years and as long as those people don't look up how LRH really felt about certain ethnic groups or they see it but dismiss it as false info they'll continue to buy into the teachings and courses and never really know how they're being used or how the COS big wigs really feel about them.

 

ETA:  Found it:

As you get higher in the Scientology church, you’re expected to consistently take courses (beginner courses cost around $650, escalating into the thousands as you get higher) to reach the “OT Levels” (Operating Thetan levels). Not only that, but you’re concurrently shelling out big dough for “audits” ($800 per hour) and Dianetics books (a package of books costs, on average, $4,000) along the way. Scientology consistently updates the course material, so even if you reach the top, chances are you’re looking at additional courses and more spending.  After Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard died in 1986, there were suddenly no new “discoveries,” and higher-level Scientologists were told they had to start descending the bridge, rather than ascending. Additionally, little changes like punctuation and sentence structure were made to Dianetics books and other course content, meaning any Scientologist had to retake the course/level (and re-pay the original cost, again) in order to reflect those changes.

By the time you reach OT III, according to Remini, the materials involved in the course level are locked in a briefcase attached to the Scientologist’s body at all times  Don’t even think about telling anyone about what you’ve learned as you ascend, either. That’s considered “confidential information” to Scientologists, and there’s a $100,000 fine any time someone reveals details about Scientology teachings and beliefs to anyone outside the organization. It’s even punishable to tell your husband, wife, family, friends or fellow (lower ranked) Scientologist.

Edited December 13, 2018 by sigmaforce86

[tobeannounced]

10 hours ago, Yeah No said:

On a more shallow note, I loved Mike's jacket/shirt/tie combo. in this episode, but Leah's lips were looking more grotesque than usual.  The clip of her 20 years ago made me realize just how ridiculous they look now.  I don't know what kind of "lip dysmorphic disorder" makes a woman think she needs lip injections when she already has beautiful lips.  That look will not age well on her, I hate to say. 

I could really see the resemblance between Leah and her family in that old clip. It was such a contrast. It's been obvious for a while now that she's been messing with her face, but she's at that point where the effect is starting to make her look odd, not younger.

[Neurochick]

22 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

I'm positive this is it. The NOI was never set up to make its leader rich the way some other religions/ charismatic religious leaders have been. While Farrakhan lives far better than most of his flock, he can't preach self-reliance and care for others while also flying around in a fleet of private jets and having multiple gated compounds. I'm sure that he looked at this as a way to stack some cash for his family to assure generational wealth before the end of his life. I also think that he believes he's smarter than DM, knows that he's being used, and will attempt to turn the tables on him at some future point in time. When that time comes, he will have added significant indoctrination, fair gaming, disconnection, and slavish adherence to the NOI repertoire and will also have gotten rid of any naysayers. So I'm betting that he's playing the long con here, and not the other way around. 

I agree.  I would NOT mess with Farrakhan at all.  

BTW, the COS does have a huge building in Harlem, but unlike the Mormon temple, it's not in an area where they'd get a lot of foot traffic.

[juliet73]

3 hours ago, tobeannounced said:

I could really see the resemblance between Leah and her family in that old clip. It was such a contrast. It's been obvious for a while now that she's been messing with her face, but she's at that point where the effect is starting to make her look odd, not younger.

Her sister Nicole was on the Emotional Aftermath episode a few weeks ago. They definitely look similar. I don't know if Nicole had work done or not, but she looked great. If she did, Leah needs to go to her Dr. If she didn't, I think Leah would been aging beautifully if she would have left her face alone.

Edited December 13, 2018 by juliet73

[Skycatcher]

I am loving Leah (and Mike) on this program. But she definitely needs to put down the hypodermic and step away from the botox and lip injections.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The clip of her 20 years ago made me realize just how ridiculous they look now.  I don't know what kind of "lip dysmorphic disorder" makes a woman think she needs lip injections when she already has beautiful lips.  That look will not age well on her, I hate to say. 

Yeah . . . I don't want to harp on this too much because I really like Leah, but in this episode there was a clip of her from 2011 talking about her new project, and that was only 7 years ago. She looked SO different. I think she's using a lot of "fillers" because in the 2011 clip her eyes had a somewhat sunken look to them. I never watched King of Queens so I'm not overly familiar with her earlier work, but I get the impression the fillers are even affecting the way she talks because her mouth doesn't move normally anymore.

[Yeah No]

52 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah . . . I don't want to harp on this too much because I really like Leah, but in this episode there was a clip of her from 2011 talking about her new project, and that was only 7 years ago. She looked SO different. I think she's using a lot of "fillers" because in the 2011 clip her eyes had a somewhat sunken look to them. I never watched King of Queens so I'm not overly familiar with her earlier work, but I get the impression the fillers are even affecting the way she talks because her mouth doesn't move normally anymore.

Yes, I thought that too about the way her mouth moves.  I stand corrected about the 2011 clip - it was only 7 years ago, not 20, but you're right she looked very different then, more different and probably looks much worse now than she would look if she had just left her face alone. 

[Rlb8031]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah . . . I don't want to harp on this too much because I really like Leah, but in this episode there was a clip of her from 2011 talking about her new project, and that was only 7 years ago. She looked SO different. I think she's using a lot of "fillers" because in the 2011 clip her eyes had a somewhat sunken look to them. I never watched King of Queens so I'm not overly familiar with her earlier work, but I get the impression the fillers are even affecting the way she talks because her mouth doesn't move normally anymore.

I think the mouth is botox and not fillers. The muscles are paralyzed so she can't really move her lips  or cheeks much. She almost seems to have a lisp. At first I thought she had some serious dental work happening, but now I'm convinced her face is frozen.

[Skycatcher]

14 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

but now I'm convinced her face is frozen.

 I agree. I watched very closely in one of her Talking Heads, and the only thing that moves as she talks is her mouth and even that movement is odd. There is absolutely no other facial expression. So sad.

[retiredviewer]

To me this was the scariest episode yet. But I was glad to learn how low the memberships are.

[libgirl2]

51 minutes ago, retiredviewer said:

To me this was the scariest episode yet. But I was glad to learn how low the memberships are.

Me too

[dcubed]

I couldn't bring myself to feel sorry for either of the panelists (former NOI members), not one single iota - not when they could follow a man that is so disgustingly anti-Semitic, who spreads false information about Jews funding the Holocaust.  If you sleep with dogs, you're bound to get flees.  To be clear, I have no issues with the NOI stance on creating separate communities, becoming self-supporting and raising their community up for prosperity.  I understand the distrust of government officials and law enforcement as well as the white establishment.  It's the bigoted crap they spew that are outright lies that turns my stomach and that these men accepted the crap, well, that's karma.  They lived with, accepted and spread hateful lies,.  Now they are victims of hateful lies.  <Shrugs shoulders - too flippin' bad>

[Skycatcher]

On 12/14/2018 at 11:05 AM, retiredviewer said:

But I was glad to learn how low the memberships are.

 Given these low membership numbers and the amount of money CO$ has amassed, they must have milked everyone of those "cows" absolutely dry!

[green]

On 12/12/2018 at 6:23 PM, Rlb8031 said:

NOI has a LOT of competition. Many folks start out in the nation, become disillusioned and default to a more mainstream (Sunni, Shiite, etc.) Muslim faith.  Those that are in it for the black nationalism aspect sometimes move on to the other sect that Leah met with the (UNOI?). Its hard holding on to adherents when there are so many options. 

Thus the need for Farrakhan to employ CO$ strong arm tactics to hold on to his "flock."  I'm also sure Farrakhan has several Swiss bank accounts by now.  He is no modest living person in the least.  CO$ has billions of dollars at this point.  They can afford to pay him tons and it wouldn't ding up their loot one little bit.

Can't wait until Miss Cabbage goes after the neo-nazis groups and tries to meld them in with the NOI.  I'm surprised he hadn't gone recruiting after them first actually.  They really fit in with his "philosophy" big time.

Edited December 17, 2018 by green

[Chaos Theory]

On 12/14/2018 at 5:18 PM, dcubed said:

 It's the bigoted crap they spew that are outright lies that turns my stomach and that these men accepted the crap, well, that's karma.  They lived with, accepted and spread hateful lies,.  Now they are victims of hateful lies.  <Shrugs shoulders - too flippin' bad>

The same could be said for Scientology.    

Edited December 19, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[sainte-chapelle]

On 2018-12-12 at 6:24 PM, CrystalBlue said:

https://mystylenews.com/tv-movies/tiponi-grey-death-what-happened-to-her-following-leah-remini-scientology-aftermath-episode/

I loved it when Leah said she would punch the spokesperson in the face and do Time for it. They purposely misspelled the poor woman's name....f$ckers.

[Court]

Excuse my ignorance,  but is United Nation of Islam the same or did members defect and form a new church? I found this episode interesting as I had no idea this was going on. 

[Rlb8031]

14 minutes ago, Court said:

Excuse my ignorance,  but is United Nation of Islam the same or did members defect and form a new church? I found this episode interesting as I had no idea this was going on. 

Not the same. NOI was founded by Elijah Mohammad in the early part of the 20th century (I believe it was the 20's or 30's). UNOI was founded by some other dude (in the 80's??). NOI sold bean pies and the Final Call on streetcorners to raise money, UNOI ran restaurants in the cities they were active in to raise money. 

[Court]

59 minutes ago, Rlb8031 said:

Not the same. NOI was founded by Elijah Mohammad in the early part of the 20th century (I believe it was the 20's or 30's). UNOI was founded by some other dude (in the 80's??). NOI sold bean pies and the Final Call on streetcorners to raise money, UNOI ran restaurants in the cities they were active in to raise money. 

Thank you! This nagged at me last night and this morning. I figured out why finally. UNOI was featured on cults and extreme belief. Some things are very similar to scientology such as child labor and separating the kids from their families. 

[sleepysuzy]

On 2/11/2019 at 12:42 PM, Rlb8031 said:

Not the same. NOI was founded by Elijah Mohammad in the early part of the 20th century (I believe it was the 20's or 30's). UNOI was founded by some other dude (in the 80's??). NOI sold bean pies and the Final Call on streetcorners to raise money, UNOI ran restaurants in the cities they were active in to raise money. 

From what I remember about Elijah Mohammad, he was as nutty as LRH. I first learned about the NOI by reading  The Autobiography of Malcolm X, and bt the end of his life evn Malcolm was starting to reject NOI and go more toward mainstream Islam, especially after his trip to Mecca.

I view COS and NOI both as controlling cults led by evil men, and I hope the contribute to each other's mutual destruction in this unholy alliance.