Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[ChromaKelly]

7 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Bucky isn't "only" his friend. Pretty much everything Steve has ever done was for Bucky. He marched into a prison for him. He stopped fighting the Winter Soldier as soon as the world was rescued because he believed in Bucky. He protected Bucky all through Civil War. Bucky has been the main motivator of Cap for three movies. And on the flipside: When Steve was weak and needed defending, Bucky was there for him. When Steve's mother died, Bucky was there for him. Other than the brief period between getting defrosted and Civil War, Steve spend his whole life with Bucky. Leaving him behind is like leaving behind a brother.

Don't forget about Sam. I can't believe Steve would leave Sam who just returned like five minutes ago, found out about all that went down, INCLUDING Natasha's death (let's remember, between CW and IW, Team Cap was underground, they were a pretty tight crew) and just be like, hey mind if I peace out?
Steve watched Bucky die, then go back in stasis, then fucking disintegrate. He's finally back in one piece and he leaves him? WTF did he fight for Bucky all those years for?
Gah. Now I'm mad again.

[Crs97]

I am still confused by all this.  If we know the past can’t change the present, then does Steve going back and creating an alternative timeline actually screw Peggy out of her original husband and kids, or does it give her the best of both worlds that she got to marry him in one life and her husband in the other?

[festivus]

5 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

Steve watched Bucky die, then go back in stasis, then fucking disintegrate. He's finally back in one piece and he leaves him? WTF did he fight for Bucky all those years for?

Yeah, I'm still mad too. Could we at least have not got one good scene between the two if this is the route they had to go? Every damn body else got a scene.

Edited July 1, 2019 by festivus
forgot a word

[ChromaKelly]

8 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I am still confused by all this.  If we know the past can’t change the present, then does Steve going back and creating an alternative timeline actually screw Peggy out of her original husband and kids, or does it give her the best of both worlds that she got to marry him in one life and her husband in the other?

The Russos said Steve was Peggy's husband all along, which is so stupid I can't with that. Did they not watch TWS or CW?

Edit - sorry, it was M&M that said this. I got mixed up. I know the Russos said one thing and them another.
 

Edited July 1, 2019 by ChromaKelly
Correct my mistake.

[swanpride]

Yes, there are two Peggys now, one which married Steve and one which didn't. But there are also two Steve's now, because in the alternate timeline there is another Steve on ice waiting to be found.

Quote

The Russos said Steve was Peggy's husband all along, which is so stupid I can't with that. Did they not watch TWS or CW?

No, Marcus and Mcfeely claimed that. The Russos said he created an alternate timeline. Which shows how little both the writers and the directors truly thought about the implications of the decision they made.

[ChromaKelly]

1 minute ago, festivus said:

Yeah, I'm still mad too. Could we at least have not got one good scene between the two if is the route they had to go? Every damn body else got a scene.

I KNOW! Every time Cap gets Bucky back, something happens and Bucky is gone again. He rescues him in TFA, then Bucky fall from the train. He gets him back in CW, he goes into the freeze to get fixed. Bucky is healed in IW, then he turns to dust. So now, Steve decides to leave him? I would have at least liked a conversation. I mean I know they weren't going to have them kiss but damn, something to acknowledge their friendship and all they've been through?

[PepSinger]

5 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

I am still confused by all this.  If we know the past can’t change the present, then does Steve going back and creating an alternative timeline actually screw Peggy out of her original husband and kids, or does it give her the best of both worlds that she got to marry him in one life and her husband in the other?

This is what I’ve been saying this ENTIRE TIME. Thank you. I feel validated. LOL.

[ChromaKelly]

4 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Yes, there are two Peggys now, one which married Steve and one which didn't. But there are also two Steve's now, because in the alternate timeline there is another Steve on ice waiting to be found.

No, Marcus and Mcfeely claimed that. The Russos said he created an alternate timeline. Which shows how little both the writers and the directors truly thought about the implications of the decision they made.

Crap, sorry I mixed it up. Well, they wrote TWS and CW too! 

[swanpride]

And the pilot for Agent Carter. So they should understand the implications better.

[GHScorpiosRule]

39 minutes ago, festivus said:

Of course they are. I just feel the Steve I watched in every movie up until this one would not. I cannot see this Steve leave not only his friends but a world that is in chaos. The people in charge of the MCU wanted Captain America out and while I can understand that I don't like the way they went about it. I would rather they have just killed him or stranded him somewhere because of having to return the stones because fucking off to go live another life is not the Steve I've been watching.

HELL. They should have just put Steve under the glass thingamajig that the '90s animated show did in the final season's Logan episode/flashback to WWII when he and Cap fought side by side, and at the end Logan says he'll wait until Cap wakes up again. or something. My mind is foggy. I only recall Cap being in a glass coffin. I'm NOT saying it should have been Logan, but just have that ending for Steve--for him to wake up whenever.

[Ohiopirate02]

33 minutes ago, ChromaKelly said:

I KNOW! Every time Cap gets Bucky back, something happens and Bucky is gone again. He rescues him in TFA, then Bucky fall from the train. He gets him back in CW, he goes into the freeze to get fixed. Bucky is healed in IW, then he turns to dust. So now, Steve decides to leave him? I would have at least liked a conversation. I mean I know they weren't going to have them kiss but damn, something to acknowledge their friendship and all they've been through?

I think this is the reason why they did not want any scene with Steve and Bucky.  Heaven forbid anyone think that Steve is anything but straight.  I feel like there was at least one Marvel exectuive or the writers or the Russo brothers who felt that --A goodbye scene with Steve and Bucky would make the Stucky shippers go crazy on the internet and that could not happen.  Steve is straight and Peggy is the love of his life and whatever happened in the previous movies does not matter.  

I do believe that Steve deserves the chance to retire, and settle down in 2023.  He has changed since he came out of the ice.  Steve is not the man Peggy fell in love with in the 1940s.  If the writers were so hellbent on a Steve/Peggy endgame and were playing around with time, why did they not have Steve bring Peggy into the future?  There would be 2 Peggys but original Peggy died in 2016(?).  According to the time travel rules established in Endgame, this should work a lot better than Steve staying in the past.

[festivus]

The writers and the directors can't even agree on whether Steve created a closed loop or an alternate timeline. So, I can't write a fanfic (I am a terrible writer) but since they can't even give us a straight answer, I make up my own canon and it goes like this:

First of all, I refuse to even consider the closed loop. Does not happen. Our Steve does return the stones, goes back and has that dance with Peggy that he missed creating the alternate timeline. Then he tells her everything that happened in his future, they go rescue Bucky and dig up Peggy's Steve and Peggy and that Steve and Bucky along with Howard found SHIELD with the Hydra knowledge and make that timeline a much better place. Our Steve intends to get back to our world but things happen and he ends up helping out in other worlds. Perhaps getting to Nebula before Thanos gets his hands on her. Because of this timeline being different he is able to jump through time. (Perhaps Howard has something to do with this) And now for the shocker: That is not our old man Steve on that bench, that is alternate timeline Steve! Our Steve told him when and where to take the shield to Sam. Our Steve still intends to come back to his friends and life in this world. There's just been a bit of a holdup for reasons. Which I don't know. There's a reason I don't write fanfic  😄

I may have too much time on my hands.

[Dee]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Bucky is only his friend.

Sam & Natasha would vehemently disagree.

[clack]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

For the upteenth time, the woman he loved got married and moved on with her life.  The Steve in all the other Avengers/CA movies knew that and accepted that.  But Endgame Steve apparently disregarded all that and decided it was okay to go back and change history/create an alternate timeline to "fix" that scenario to his liking, instead of moving on, finding someone else, and finding his own life in the present.

It's not just what he did, it's the way he did it.

That's only one interpretation.

My interpretation : Steve, and only Steve, was her husband all along, and any evidence to the contrary can be retconned or hand-waved away. The MCU works on emotional sense, not logical sense. If one went by strict logic, the MCU couldn't exist.

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Bucky isn't "only" his friend. Pretty much everything Steve has ever done was for Bucky. He marched into a prison for him. He stopped fighting the Winter Soldier as soon as the world was rescued because he believed in Bucky. He protected Bucky all through Civil War. Bucky has been the main motivator of Cap for three movies. And on the flipside: When Steve was weak and needed defending, Bucky was there for him. When Steve's mother died, Bucky was there for him. Other than the brief period between getting defrosted and Civil War, Steve spend his whole life with Bucky. Leaving him behind is like leaving behind a brother.

Yeah, Steve and Bucky were soldiers together, and best friends before then. They were loyal to each other. But men don't forgo all that life offers in order to remain close by their friends. Chris Evans himself left his parents, siblings and friends behind in Massachusetts when he took up acting. 

It's common for combat vets to say that the closest friendships they ever made were with their fellow squad members.  And then they they return to civilian life and leave those friends behind.

And I would argue that Steve's major character arc was never loyalty to Bucky. His arc was that of a man out of time. In the end, he returned to his time. I found that more emotionally satisfying than having Steve die.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I am still confused by all this.  If we know the past can’t change the present, then does Steve going back and creating an alternative timeline actually screw Peggy out of her original husband and kids, or does it give her the best of both worlds that she got to marry him in one life and her husband in the other?

I think the writers time loop theory keeps being brought up because that is how it plays out in the movie. There are many people who watched the movie and absolutely believe Steve was Peggy’s husband all along.

The alternate timeline theory is the only thing that makes any sense but it still requires multiple fanwanks to explain it. At the moment there is no canon explanation so the debate will probably continue until a future movie gives a definitive answer. 

[ChromaKelly]

7 minutes ago, clack said:

That's only one interpretation.

My interpretation : Steve, and only Steve, was her husband all along, and any evidence to the contrary can be retconned or hand-waved away. The MCU works on emotional sense, not logical sense. If one went by strict logic, the MCU couldn't exist.

Yeah, Steve and Bucky were soldiers together, and best friends before then. They were loyal to each other. But men don't forgo all that life offers in order to remain close by their friends. Chris Evans himself left his parents, siblings and friends behind in Massachusetts when he took up acting. 

It's common for combat vets to say that the closest friendships they ever made were with their fellow squad members.  And then they they return to civilian life and leave those friends behind.

And I would argue that Steve's major character arc was never loyalty to Bucky. His arc was that of a man out of time. In the end, he returned to his time. I found that more emotionally satisfying than having Steve die.

Whether you ship it or not, Bucky is much more than a close friend to Steve. Steve becomes Captain America the Hero because of Bucky. He stops being USO entertainment and goes behind enemy lines to rescue Bucky. He threw down his shield and quit the Avengers because of his loyalty to Bucky. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

The writers and the directors can't even agree on whether Steve created a closed loop or an alternate timeline. So, I can't write a fanfic (I am a terrible writer) but since they can't even give us a straight answer, I make up my own canon and it goes like this:

First of all, I refuse to even consider the closed loop. Does not happen. Our Steve does return the stones, goes back and has that dance with Peggy that he missed creating the alternate timeline. Then he tells her everything that happened in his future, they go rescue Bucky and dig up Peggy's Steve and Peggy and that Steve and Bucky along with Howard found SHIELD with the Hydra knowledge and make that timeline a much better place. Our Steve intends to get back to our world but things happen and he ends up helping out in other worlds. Perhaps getting to Nebula before Thanos gets his hands on her. Because of this timeline being different he is able to jump through time. (Perhaps Howard has something to do with this) And now for the shocker: That is not our old man Steve on that bench, that is alternate timeline Steve! Our Steve told him when and where to take the shield to Sam. Our Steve still intends to come back to his friends and life in this world. There's just been a bit of a holdup for reasons. Which I don't know. There's a reason I don't write fanfic  😄

I may have too much time on my hands.

I am here for it.

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

For the upteenth time, the woman he loved got married and moved on with her life.  The Steve in all the other Avengers/CA movies knew that and accepted that.  But Endgame Steve apparently disregarded all that and decided it was okay to go back and change history/create an alternate timeline to "fix" that scenario to his liking, instead of moving on, finding someone else, and finding his own life in the present.

It's not just what he did, it's the way he did it.

And for the umpteenth time, in the timeline Steve went to, she didn't. While Steve knew that Peggy lived a happy life, he was happy for her and trying to move on with his life. But as soon as the idea of time travel to multiple timelines became a reality, he had the chance to go and live the life he dreamed of. And trying to move on isn't the same as actually moving on.

He didn't change the past. The movie makes it clear that he can't do that. He went back in time to live his life in a timeline that hadn't yet happened. Who gives a shit about some guy that Peggy hasn't even met yet? It's Peggy's choice, and knowing Steve he'd explain everything in detail when he got there. And then, guess what? Peggy would choose him over the guy she hasn't even met yet.

People want to cheapen their relationship simply because it fits an agenda, but The First Avenger showed us that this wasn't a fleeting, wartime moment they shared. They worked together for a long time. Their romance was cut off before it had the chance to really bloom, and then Peggy spent years mourning Steve, and the loss of what they could have had. That was made clear in Agent Carter. And, funnily enough, Peggy and her importance to Steve was brought up as a reason when people were saying they didn't like the Sharon Carter romance.

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Bucky isn't "only" his friend. Pretty much everything Steve has ever done was for Bucky. He marched into a prison for him. He stopped fighting the Winter Soldier as soon as the world was rescued because he believed in Bucky. He protected Bucky all through Civil War. Bucky has been the main motivator of Cap for three movies. And on the flipside: When Steve was weak and needed defending, Bucky was there for him. When Steve's mother died, Bucky was there for him. Other than the brief period between getting defrosted and Civil War, Steve spend his whole life with Bucky. Leaving him behind is like leaving behind a brother.

Yes, he clearly loves Bucky like a brother, but the idea that some people push - that Steve somehow betrayed Bucky by daring to go and live a different life - is absurd. Bucky is a grown fucking man, who is capable of owning his mistakes, dealing with his guilty and living his life. Does he want Steve to be in his life? Sure. Does he want that if he believes Steve is holding himself back from happiness? No. Because Bucky loves Steve too, and wants the best for him. Talking about Bucky as though he's an invalid who can't survive without Steve cheapens both characters and the friendship they shared.

But the bottom line is, Chris Evans didn't want to play Captain America any more, and the choice was to either kill him or retire him. The only realistic way to retire Steve Rogers is to remove any possibility of him appearing, so that no one can say 'oh yeah, as if Steve wouldn't come back to help with this!'

[MrsR]

1 hour ago, clack said:

Chris Evans himself left his parents, siblings and friends behind in Massachusetts when he took up acting. 

You're not a Bostonian or a Bay Stater (or Masshole if you prefer).

He's come home. He's got a whole life in Boston. Hell, we couldn't get rid of him if we wanted to.

[swanpride]

You could have written Steve out by simply not having him appear again, leaving it open if he got lost in the time stream. Or you could have simply have him retire, period, because there is no reason for him to appear anywhere if he is out of the loop.

Not to mention that there are a number of ways to bring him back NOW. They could channel time through his old body. They can let alternate Steve appear.

[stealinghome]

2 hours ago, clack said:

My interpretation : Steve, and only Steve, was her husband all along, and any evidence to the contrary can be retconned or hand-waved away. The MCU works on emotional sense, not logical sense. If one went by strict logic, the MCU couldn't exist.

Steve being Peggy’s husband all along doesn’t work emotionally for me because that means Steve is a monster who sat by and (among other things) let HYDRA grow inside SHIELD—which was Peggy’s life’s work—and allowed Bucky to be tortured by the Red Room/HYDRA, mindwiped, and turned into an assassin, all without saying a word; it also means he did nothing to prevent the Winter Soldier’s assassination of Howard and Maria Stark. For me, there is zero emotional sense there—it’s character assassination of the highest order—and while it’s still a bad option, the alternate universe explanation is immensely preferable to the closed loop explanation.

Or the writers could have avoided all this by just writing better!

4 minutes ago, swanpride said:

You could have written Steve out by simply not having him appear again, leaving it open if he got lost in the time stream. Or you could have simply have him retire, period, because there is no reason for him to appear anywhere if he is out of the loop.

Not to mention that there are a number of ways to bring him back NOW. They could channel time through his old body. They can let alternate Steve appear.

Word to all this. It’s not as if the events of Endgame would prevent the MCU from somehow magically bringing young Steve back if they wanted to and somehow could convince Evans to come back. I would also add that they could have written Steve off by having him disappear and Natasha reappear at the end, and wave Nat off into retirement that way (if Scarlett Johansson also wanted out). Nat’s never had any solo movies so it’s easier to swallow her not appearing in the MCU again outside of her solo movie...which could also have been used to tie up that loose end.

[Bruinsfan]

9 minutes ago, swanpride said:

You could have written Steve out by simply not having him appear again, leaving it open if he got lost in the time stream. 

Based on bitterness still felt over the Quantum Leap series finale 26 years later by many fans (myself included), I don't think that was ever an option. If you think people are raising a ruckus about the ending to Steve's story arc now...

[Spartan Girl]

Steve being Peggy's husband all along was BULLSHIT.

And as much as I love Peggy getting Steve as a husband in one universe and Souza/Whoever in the other....I don't know, man, it's like having your cake and eating it to.

Whichever way you see it, this ending just. Does. Not. Work.

[swanpride]

The difference to Quantum leap was always that it was the ending, period, and that wasn't really a great ending for someone who always wanted to do the leap home. With Steve it would have been like "okay, let's put the character aside for the moment, until Chris Evans is ready to play him again or we recast". I am sure a LOT of people would have been okay with that. Because in a way, the issue with Steve is kind of the same issue of Black Widow: Both are very important characters and it just feels wrong that they were shoved out of the franchise in a movie which wasn't even remotely about them. Infinity war and Endgame feel way more like Tony's and Thor's stories, and Tony is the one who gets all the attention you want for a character leaving the stage. It is a little bit less pronounced with Steve because there is some time of the movie dedicated to him, it just feels odd that none of this feels connected to Winter Soldier and Civil War. But Natasha doesn't even get a proper spy's goodbye.

There have been characters who didn't even die who got a better send-off and a more satisfying conclusion to their story than Cap and Natasha got.

[festivus]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Who gives a shit about some guy that Peggy hasn't even met yet? It's Peggy's choice, and knowing Steve he'd explain everything in detail when he got there. And then, guess what? Peggy would choose him over the guy she hasn't even met yet.

That's not what bothers me. What about the Steve in the ice in that timeline? I don't believe Peggy would just let that stand or Steve either.

I will never like this ending and it's not because I don't want Steve and Peggy together again. You can't go live your life over again and if he did do that then he's not doing right by the other Steve or Peggy either. It's a bad message to send. This ending just creates too many problems for me and until someone comes out and definitively says what happened, then I don't accept it. 

I know Chris Evans wanted to leave and I think the MCU in general wanted to move on from this era. I just think there were better ways to do it.

[swanpride]

Yeah, I mean, it is less that I am bothered about Peggy's alternate life, it is more that I hate the implication of it. She isn't some tool who sits around on the shelf to be used whenever Steve has a hang up. She is a character in her own right. There is something dismissive about the way her character is treated in Endgame. As if nothing she did the life she had was more important than her being the woman Steve fell in love with.

But I am also not comfortable with Steve stealing another Steve's life. Okay, he might not know where the plane is, and I guess there are reasonable explanations why they won't be able to find him earlier in this reality either, but it must be confusing as f... for this Steve to wake up and learn that an alternate version of him has lived the life he wanted.

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Whichever way you see it, this ending just. Does. Not. Work.

With all due respect, that’s your opinion. It works just fine for some.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Yeah, I mean, it is less that I am bothered about Peggy's alternate life, it is more that I hate the implication of it. She isn't some tool who sits around on the shelf to be used whenever Steve has a hang up. She is a character in her own right. There is something dismissive about the way her character is treated in Endgame. As if nothing she did the life she had was more important than her being the woman Steve fell in love with.

But I am also not comfortable with Steve stealing another Steve's life. Okay, he might not know where the plane is, and I guess there are reasonable explanations why they won't be able to find him earlier in this reality either, but it must be confusing as f... for this Steve to wake up and learn that an alternate version of him has lived the life he wanted.

This is exactly my problem with it being an alternate timeline. Plus the Steve that returns to Peggy isn’t her Steve. Giving Steve and Peggy a life together is something that sounds nice in theory but becomes problematic the more I think about it. 

Even if Steve told Peggy everything and she chose to marry him she could not understand what she was giving up. The real question I have is would 1970 Peggy have encouraged Steve to go back and create a new timeline or would she have told him to move on without her.

I also think the idea of just creating a new timeline gives the movies to big of cop out when it comes to changing the past. If it’s okay to leave alternate Steve in the ice or for Peggy’s original children to not exist what difference does it make if other people are plucked out from the past whenever it’s convenient.

Endgame tried to have to both ways. It mattered that the stones were removed and that needed to be fixed but then it doesn’t seem to matter Loki stole the tesseract. For me that makes the ending a failure. 

[Jeebus Cripes]

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2475833/watch-chris-evans-struggle-to-explain-avengers-endgames-steve-and-peggy-timeline-continuity

Don Cheadle's answer for the win: 

Quote

Chris Evans: You know, I'm not sure if I can give you those answers. ... But you know what, look, that's weak as shit if I'm like I don't know... But ask the writers! [laughs]. I mean, look, I mean there's a lot of things you can question about the time continuum. But if there's anything I've learned about working with Marvel, they don't leave stones unturned. They really don't. I at times might share some of the questions, but anytime I've kind of asked the question of people, there's always an answer. There's always someone who kind of explains it to me.

Don Cheadle: And then you immediately forget what they said.

Chris Evans: And then I forget it. And then I come onstage, and then I say 'Hey, ask Don Cheadle what it's like to be Don Cheadle!'

Don Cheadle: Steve exists on multiple planes and time is not just a straight line. There's multiple timelines.

Also, this bit from the Russos:

Quote

Joe Russo: The way that it would work, right, is that when Captain America goes back, he would create a branch reality. OK? Now he would exist in that branch reality with a second Captain America who was frozen in ice.

Anthony Russo: Peggy understood that he was dead at that point in the storytelling because Cap went back to a point in time where nobody knew he still was alive, frozen in ice.

Joe Russo: Now what’s also a story for another time is, of course, if he created a branch reality, he would then have to use a Pym Particle to come back to this reality to hand that shield off.

Wish we could get Feige's take on things. 

[Dee]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Yes, he clearly loves Bucky like a brother, but the idea that some people push - that Steve somehow betrayed Bucky by daring to go and live a different life - is absurd.

Especially when the case can be made, quite thoroughly, that Steve did as much for Sam (and to a much lesser extent Natasha & Wanda), as he did for Bucky.

Yet barely anyone acts upset that Steve 'abandoned' Sam in the exact same manner in which he supposedly left Bucky. Wonder why....

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Dee said:

Especially when the case can be made, quite thoroughly, that Steve did as much for Sam (and to a much lesser extent Natasha & Wanda), as he did for Bucky.

Yet barely anyone acts upset that Steve 'abandoned' Sam in the exact same manner in which he supposedly left Bucky. Wonder why....

I can’t speak for anyone else but I am upset over Sam’s treatment in the movie. Sam is incredibly loyal to Steve and he doesn’t even get a heads up about Steve’s decision. When Steve doesn’t show up on time Sam is clearly very worried and he deserved better than that. I really dislike that Sam and Bucky were pushed to the side in Endgame just for the reveal of OldSteve on the bench. 

Personally I’m withholding final judgement on Steve, Bucky and Sam until after Falcon and the Winter Soldier. 

[Dandesun]

The idea of Steve having been Peggy's husband in this timeline all along makes Sharon a straight up freak. And not in a good way. I would have been so much happier with Sharon's involvement with Steve being about how she grew up idolizing her awesome Aunt Peggy. ESPECIALLY in Civil War. Instead, we got that weird ass nothing kiss since, you know, at the time Marcus & McFeely were insisting that Peggy meant absolutely nothing and she was just some woman Steve kissed in a car once... but now they're saying that Steve is Peggy's husband in this timeline and always was and somehow that kiss is not fucking gross as all get out as far as they're concerned.

Of course, I am also speaking as someone who has never been big on Steve/Sharon even in the comics... mainly because I didn't like how it generated there, either. (She's Peggy's younger, hotter, blonder sister because Cap couldn't possibly love a 40 year old woman. No wait, she's Peggy's younger, hotter, blonder cousin... no wait, she's Peggy's younger, hotter, blonder niece... I mean, great niece. Time time time, look what it's done to me!)

Anyway, I hate Steve's ending. Some people don't. If you loved it, love it like crazy. Have at it. That's you're prerogative as a fan. If you hate it. Have at it. Same thing.

And at this point, I'm looking forward to what we may possibly get in the future.

I want Kamala Khan. I want America Chavez. I want Billy and Teddy. I want X-Men stories that aren't about fucking Magneto and Charles and Logan. (And definitely not Mystique either unless they actually did her right and even brought Destiny into the mix.)

[morakot]

14 hours ago, Anduin said:

Peggy was on his mind

Plus he'd just seen what she looked like when she was 50 plus and she looked pretty much the same as she had done in her twenties...

Anyway, the one thing I wanted to see in the movie was the other picture(s) on Peggy's desk. Steve definitely pushed something away to look at the picture of skinny Steve. I can wait until I have to get a subscription to the new streaming Disney service to see the recording (I would have to FF most of the Iron Man scenes in any case.)

Edited July 2, 2019 by morakot
Wanted to add something I forgot to mention earlier

[Danny Franks]

3 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Of course, I am also speaking as someone who has never been big on Steve/Sharon even in the comics... mainly because I didn't like how it generated there, either. (She's Peggy's younger, hotter, blonder sister because Cap couldn't possibly love a 40 year old woman. No wait, she's Peggy's younger, hotter, blonder cousin... no wait, she's Peggy's younger, hotter, blonder niece... I mean, great niece. Time time time, look what it's done to me!)

Sharon was a much more important character than Peggy in the comics. If any woman is the Marvel 616 Steve's true love, then it's Sharon Carter, and Peggy was strictly an old flame from the war. She also played a significant role in the Winter Soldier storyline. I think that's what Marcus and McFeeley were trying to honour, with their introduction of Sharon to the MCU. But they underestimated how much people liked Peggy, and how reluctant people would be to accept Peggy's great niece becoming Steve's new girlfriend. And also the people who believe Steve and Bucky are secretly gay. So Sharon ended up being irrelevant and they went back to Peggy being Steve's true love.

[Dandesun]

22 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Sharon was a much more important character than Peggy in the comics. If any woman is the Marvel 616 Steve's true love, then it's Sharon Carter, and Peggy was strictly an old flame from the war. She also played a significant role in the Winter Soldier storyline. I think that's what Marcus and McFeeley were trying to honour, with their introduction of Sharon to the MCU. But they underestimated how much people liked Peggy, and how reluctant people would be to accept Peggy's great niece becoming Steve's new girlfriend. And also the people who believe Steve and Bucky are secretly gay. So Sharon ended up being irrelevant and they went back to Peggy being Steve's true love.

Oh I know that. Sharon is absolutely Steve's true love in 616. Peggy was not nearly as big a deal but she did exist and the familial relationship between Peggy and Sharon was always there.

This is not me having a snit about MCU Sharon vs Peggy. This is me never liking Steve/Sharon since the 90s when I started reading Cap comics and really having a bad taste in my mouth over the Carter women and Steve's relationships with both of them. I have very simply ALWAYS felt this way... since Chris Evans and Hayley Atwell et al were mere prepubescent teens and Marvel was declaring bankruptcy and selling off their prime properties.

Just like I got my nerd panties in a twist over Jane Foster vs Sif in the comics (and have since come around on that score and really can't wait for Jane to become the first new Valyrie after War of the Realms) but found MCU Jane and Thor to be rather charming. But I know that's an unpopular opinion. So be it.

The MCU made me a Stucky fan and that even took awhile. But I never was a fan of Steve/Sharon comics or otherwise. And I love 616 Bucky/Nat. That's just me.

[swanpride]

I don't care about Sharon either way. I had no trouble with the romance - though I felt that it needed more time to develop. At least suggest that they had contact off-screen between movies - and just like I wanted Peggy to move on, I wanted Steve to move on. I love Steve and Peggy but the fact that it was the romance which never was made up a large part of the appeal.

and regarding Sam: I like Sam, but he isn't an international assassin hunted by the governments of the world after decades of Brainwashing. He will be fine. Bucky deserved better.

[Spartan Girl]

11 hours ago, PepSinger said:

With all due respect, that’s your opinion. It works just fine for some.

That's just fine, and I mean that sincerely.

But I'm always going to feel that the writers shoehorned this ending at the last minute due to the backlash against Sharon. And I'm always going to side-eye Hayley Atwell for egging on the trolls and her stans against Sharon. It was completely unfair to Emily VanCamp when all she did was take a part. She didn't deserve to be harassed on social media any more than Morgan Stark did.

You can hate on MCU Sharon all you want but she didn't get a fair shake in the movies. People made up their minds about her when she barely got five minutes in WS/CW. And people are ALREADY whining about her being in Falcon and Winter Soldier. Me, I'm glad she'll be in there. Like Bucky, she deserves better.

And I refuse to believe that Sharon would ever kiss a guy she thought was her uncle. The writers are just trying to cover their asses.

[ChromaKelly]

I don't hate Sharon, I just felt like it was shoved in there in CW and they had zero chemistry. It's also kind of weird that she's Peggy's great niece. I wouldn't have minded Sharon as an addition to Team Cap but as a friend and ally to Cap. The kiss in CW didn't really have any build up or anything. And, making Steve Peggy's husband all along (which I will never accept, it's just too stupid) makes it even weirder.
I am a Stucky shipper, but I also ship Steve/Peggy, but as an in the past thing. If Steve hadn't crashed in the ocean, yeah maybe he would have married Peggy. Who knows? That's why I'm ok with Old Steve being the Frozen Steve. If 2023Steve rescued the Steve in that timeline, and that's the one that married Peggy (as she would not have moved on yet), I'm cool with that. 

Also count me in as being upset with Steve leaving Sam. And, now that I'm thinking about it even more - leaving what's left of the Avengers. Yes, Steve is free to retire. Zero problems with that. But I would think the Steve we've known for years would stay to at least help them regroup and work through the trauma. Most of the remaining Avengers had been snapped and don't know what went down in the five year gap.

I'm also wondering how Steve got the shield to bring back to Sam? That makes me think maybe he did rescue Frozen Steve.

[swanpride]

Yeah, for all we know the alternate reality is such a paradise that it doesn't need a cap.

[Bruinsfan]

10 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Sharon was a much more important character than Peggy in the comics. If any woman is the Marvel 616 Steve's true love, then it's Sharon Carter, and Peggy was strictly an old flame from the war. She also played a significant role in the Winter Soldier storyline. I think that's what Marcus and McFeeley were trying to honour, with their introduction of Sharon to the MCU. But they underestimated how much people liked Peggy, and how reluctant people would be to accept Peggy's great niece becoming Steve's new girlfriend. And also the people who believe Steve and Bucky are secretly gay. So Sharon ended up being irrelevant and they went back to Peggy being Steve's true love.

I was always partial to Bernie Rosenthal myself, probably as a result of the Byrne run on Cap's book back in the early 80s. But I've never objected to Sharon as Steve's true love in the comics; it was very different in the movies/ABC series where Steve and Peggy's feelings for each other arguably got more focus than any other romantic relationship between two characters. And Evans and Atwell had chemistry that would be impressive for a rom-com, nevermind the MCU where couples are usually lukewarm with the occasional deviations into pretty good (Tony and Pepper) or Oh HELL no! (Natasha and Bruce).

[swanpride]

Eh, best romance in the MCU is and will always be Fitzsimmons anyway.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Yeah, for all we know the alternate reality is such a paradise that it doesn't need a cap.

It became a alternate paradise because Steve Rogers cleaned the other heads of Hydra out of the rest of the world's security bureaus instead of just stopping at the Nazi head when he went into the ice. But with that much historical/cultural drift since  194X when a decade older Steve returned via the Pym quantum tech in the MCU you might as well have a world where the Confederacy won the War of Northern Aggression.

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Eh, best romance in the MCU is and will always be Fitzsimmons anyway.

TV allows for long play that movies, even 20 something in 10 years can't touch.

[Jeebus Cripes]

9 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And I refuse to believe that Sharon would ever kiss a guy she thought was her uncle. The writers are just trying to cover their asses.

The writers are caught up in a messy lie. They'll never admit it. Like a kid with cookie crumbs all over it's face, vehemently denying they ate any. It's so stupid at this point. 

[Dee]

The Russos address Gamora's fate at 'Avengers: Endgame' finale

Quote

"The argument could be that Tony [Stark] wished away all the evil, the enemy, so is she still alive?" said Anthony Russo told Fox 5 DC.

"Who knows? That’s a story for another time."

Joe Russo added: "If Tony in fact wanted to eliminate Thanos and his army, was Gamora at that moment still part of that army?"

[Danny Franks]

20 minutes ago, Dee said:

The Russos address Gamora's fate at 'Avengers: Endgame' finale

"The argument could be that Tony [Stark] wished away all the evil, the enemy, so is she still alive?" said Anthony Russo told Fox 5 DC.

"Who knows? That’s a story for another time."

Joe Russo added: "If Tony in fact wanted to eliminate Thanos and his army, was Gamora at that moment still part of that army?"  

Answer: No she wasn't. Because she's actively fighting against Thanos' army in the climax of the movie. It would be oddly specific of Tony to form a thought that included Gamora, because that would require some kind of "everyone who came through the time jump with Thanos" line of thinking... which would also include our Nebula.

[Crs97]

I seem to recall that during press for Iron Man 3 Shane Black was asked about removing the shrapnel from Tony’s heart and whether that would affect how Iron Man proceeds.  As I recall he basically said he liked it for the end of his movie and it was now the next writers’ problem to solve.  I’m impressed that the movies tie together as nicely as they do over 10 years, but cracks do show with all the different writers and directors.

[foxfreakinmulder]

I have a couple of question I hope someone can answer for me.

1. How was Captain America able to hold Thor's hammer? Why did he take it with him to return the stones?

2. How come Thor wasn't the badass thunder god he was at the end of Avengers Infinity War?

I don't read the comic but I enjoy the movies.  I don't know if they have any plans to continue making Avengers movies but if they do I have no desire watch without Iron Man and Captain America and I'll include Black Widow on that list too. I don't care who they try to bring in as the new Avengers that's not going to work for me.

I do like Thor and hope to see more of him. Not fat drunk Thor. LOL!

Looking forward to Guardians of the Galaxy 3.

[Anduin]

25 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I have a couple of question I hope someone can answer for me.

1. How was Captain America able to hold Thor's hammer? Why did he take it with him to return the stones?

2. How come Thor wasn't the badass thunder god he was at the end of Avengers Infinity War?

The enchantment states that whoever is worthy can hold the hammer. Steve was in some way worthy. Proof that MCU Odin is nothing like the mythological Odin, who had some dodgy values. Mjolnir was retrieved from Asgard in the past. Steve returned it to the past to prevent a temporal hiccup.

At the end of IW, Thor drives Stormbreaker into Thanos' chest, instead of going for a head or arm blow. Thanos calls this out and snaps his fingers. In a way, Thor in particular failed to prevent the snap. His guilt drives him into alcohol and generally bad living.

[foxfreakinmulder]

Thank you Anduin.

That makes sense that he was returning the hammer to the past. I don't know why I blanked on that.

I know early in the movie we saw Thor take the head shot, I was expecting him to do it again at some point during the battle and bring down all that power he did in the last movie but I guess he was too out of shape.

Edited July 7, 2019 by foxfreakinmulder
forgot something.

[Guest]

Avengers: Endgame Almost Certain to Pass Avatar, as Gap Narrows to Less Than $7 Million