Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[festivus]

4 minutes ago, johntfs said:

The thing about Steve and the rest is that this movie had one main job to do.  It had to end the Avengers - at least in terms of the original team.  Clint is with his family.  Tony and Natasha died heroically.  Bruce is probably teaching and doing research.  Thor is with the Space Thieves, er, Guardians of the Galaxy without the Throne of Asgard hanging over his head.  And Steve, Steve got to live out his life in peace.

I understand that, I do. I think that different people needed different things from this movie but as my son said to me: "Mama, not everybody is going to care about the lack of Steve and Bucky in this movie." But I care because out of all these movies, Steve and his friendships were the most important to me and second to that was the Guardians of the Galaxy (especially Rocket) and their found family. We got to see them reunite and we know they'll get another movie and I'm happy about that. I'm hoping for Asguardians of the Galaxy with Thor and Nebula. Those two need a family.

Like I said before there were things I really enjoyed, I thought Thor's and Tony's story was very well done over the last two movies. Everyone will see things differently because of what they bring to table in terms of enjoyment of the various storylines in all these movies. I know one movie cannot be all things to all people but my feelings are still my feelings.

I'm really hoping to see the Steve living out his life in peace differently one day and enjoying the way that story ended. Today is not that day.

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, festivus said:

And Steve, Steve got to live out his life in peace.

Part of the issue, though, too is that the only "happy ending" they could conceive for Steve (or apparently anyone) was to "have a wife and kids".  There are so many more options for a happy life than just that, and they had to twist the story to an extraordinary extent to give him that.  As I said, I am genuinely glad for anyone who got what they wanted/needed out of that.  But, in the end, it was... uninspired.  

[festivus]

1 minute ago, Wynterwolf said:

As I said, I am genuinely glad for anyone who got what they wanted/needed out of that. 

I am too because a lot of people did want that. Just wanted to say that wasn't my quote in your post though. That one is from johntfs

[Wynterwolf]

Yeah, sorry I knew that... I just grabbed it from yours, because it was on the same page.  😉

[stealinghome]

Poor Natasha, not at the ladies' lunch though...sniff.

Quote

Think back a little bit to Age of Ultron.  One thing Ultron said to Cap was "The Soldier, pretending he can live without a war."  By going to live with Peggy he could finally stop being The Soldier.  That was never going to happen in "our" timeline.  There would always have been another mission, battle, war for Captain America, the super-soldier.

But at the end of Ultron, Steve himself also says "I don’t know. Family, stability...the guy who wanted all of that went in the ice 75 years ago. I think someone else came out." And then when Steve looks around and the trappings of military life are there, he says he's "home." I've always taken the point of Steve's character arc across Winter Soldier, Ultron, and Civil War to be his conviction that the moral compass of the present has become horribly skewed and that it's his job to push it back in the right direction however he can, even if in just small incremental ways. He made peace with his life and found a new purpose (and made great friendships...Natasha and Sam foremost among them).

Further, I just don't see an alternate reality where Steve marries Peggy and says "all these shitty things I know are happening...nah, I won't stop them, I'll just be a house husband forever." He's still going to be The Soldier in the past; it's just that he's The Soldier in the past instead of in the present. Of all of the Avengers, I've always seen both Natasha and Steve as the greatest lifers (which is why, incidentally, Natasha/Bruce was never really going to work but Natasha/Steve are such great friends). No matter where they are, they're going to be hardwired to go do something and help people. They can't just sit on their hands and do nothing and find satisfaction in other ways. Clint could retire happily to his farm and family, Bruce can retire from superheroing happily and go back to making solely scientific contributions, Thor is still figuring out who he is (but as an Asguardian prince his case is fundamentally different from the others')...Tony is a more complicated case, as Endgame illustrates beautifully--he can't do nothing if there is something to be done, but if he perceives there is nothing to be done, he can indeed find satisfaction in other things/ways...but Steve and Natasha are lifers. That idea that Steve could sit idly by while he knows horrible things are happening and do nothing imo flies in the face of how the character has been presented since his first movie. It's basically character assassination in my eyes.

Quote

I know that probably creates its own set of issues and complications that I haven’t entirely thought through, but I like the idea of seeing Peggy in the future more than I like the idea of Steve going to the past.  I can live with it, since it has been clarified that he did create an alternate timeline, but it still wouldn’t have been my choice, for a multitude of reasons (many of which have already been laid out here by other posters).

Also, the slam-dunk job for Peggy in the present is to re-create SHIELD alongside Fury. Peggy then gets a second chance to create a SHIELD that's not infested from within by HYDRA.

Edited May 1, 2019 by stealinghome

[VCRTracking]

31 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

But at the end of Ultron, Steve himself also says "I don’t know. Family, stability...the guy who wanted all of that went in the ice 75 years ago. I think someone else came out." And then when Steve looks around and the trappings of military life are there, he says he's "home." I've always taken the point of Steve's character arc across Winter Soldier, Ultron, and Civil War to be his conviction that the moral compass of the present has become horribly skewed and that it's his job to push it back in the right direction however he can, even if in just small incremental ways. He made peace with his life and found a new purpose (and made great friendships...Natasha and Sam foremost among them).

Further, I just don't see an alternate reality where Steve marries Peggy and says "all these shitty things I know are happening...nah, I won't stop them, I'll just be a house husband forever." He's still going to be The Soldier in the past; it's just that he's The Soldier in the past instead of in the present. Of all of the Avengers, I've always seen both Natasha and Steve as the greatest lifers (which is why, incidentally, Natasha/Bruce was never really going to work but Natasha/Steve are such great friends). No matter where they are, they're going to be hardwired to go do something and help people. They can't just sit on their hands and do nothing and find satisfaction in other ways. Clint could retire happily to his farm and family, Bruce can retire from superheroing happily and go back to making solely scientific contributions, Thor is still figuring out who he is (but as an Asguardian prince his case is fundamentally different from the others')...Tony is a more complicated case, as Endgame illustrates beautifully--he can't do nothing if there is something to be done, but if he perceives there is nothing to be done, he can indeed find satisfaction in other things/ways...but Steve and Natasha are lifers. That idea that Steve could sit idly by while he knows horrible things are happening and do nothing imo flies in the face of how the character has been presented since his first movie. It's basically character assassination in my eyes.

Also, the slam-dunk job for Peggy in the present is to re-create SHIELD alongside Fury. Peggy then gets a second chance to create a SHIELD that's not infested from within by HYDRA.

Which makes the alternate timeline theory the best option. He knows how messed up the world is going to be, so he has a chance to change that and make it better. He continues being Cap in the past helps Bucky, he exposes HYDRA and he gets to be with Peggy and becoming an inspiration and influence the country didn't have post World War II.

31 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Poor Natasha, not at the ladies' lunch though...sniff.

I realize now this is probably when they were filming the big moment with all the Marvel women in the battle! It's so cool knowing they were all there together and not just filmed separately and comped in!

Edited May 1, 2019 by VCRTracking

[VCRTracking]

[Guest]

4 hours ago, festivus said:

Y'all, I think I could be okay with Steve and the way his story went if I could just see the talk he and Bucky had before he left. I think the F & WS show should show it. I know the movie just wanted its shocking reveal and showing the talk would have taken away from that but I need it. I need to understand why Steve would leave his friends because right now I still don't.

I feel the same way. I hate when a surprising reveal is prioritized over a coherent story. I really hope F & WS will be used to bring closure to that aspect by showing the talk or having oldSteve appear in some way. I know Chris Evans is ready to move on but he seems like the type who would be willing to pop in occasionally for a cameo. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Guest

[wingster55]

Quill hadn't been on Earth for what...3.5 decades? Wasn't he the least bit curious what had changed? Of his family that he was ripped from?

[anna0852]

I love how this is clearly the same day Chris Pratt was shooting his illegal video and that Tessa Thompson is seen doing the same thing in the background 😁

[anna0852]

1 minute ago, wingster55 said:

Quill hadn't been on Earth for what...3.5 decades? Wasn't he the least bit curious what had changed? Of his family that he was ripped from?

Nebula and Rocket and Thor are all going to be way more comfortable on Terra now than Quill is. Actually that gives the GotG more impetus to come back. Nebula seemed to be decent friends with Rhoadey and Thor will want to see Hulk, Valkyrie, Clint and the Asguardians.

[benteen]

9 minutes ago, wingster55 said:

Quill hadn't been on Earth for what...3.5 decades? Wasn't he the least bit curious what had changed? Of his family that he was ripped from?

Now this annoyed me.  Can they PLEASE have Quill visit his grandfather and let him know he's all right?  That man has suffered enough and I feel Quill should have done this a long time ago.

[blueray]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

I feel the same way. I hate when a surprising reveal is prioritized over a coherent story. I really hope F & WS will be used to bring closure to that aspect by showing the talk or having oldCap appear in some way. I know Steve Evans is ready to move on but he seems like the type who would be willing to pop in occasionally for a cameo. 

Chris Evens 😉

And, I hope this is the case. They can have him appear in a flashback scene, so no need for make up or extra cgi. That way they can get him in and out if he that's what he wants. This would bring more closer to his story.

Edited May 1, 2019 by blueray

[Bruinsfan]

On 4/28/2019 at 6:10 PM, Dani said:

This is exactly the reason I walked out of the theater unsure if I loved it or hated it.

My personal theory is that each time they time traveled an alternative timeline was created. When Steve stayed in the past it created a new reality where he worked with Peggy and created Shield, stomped out Hydra and rescued Bucky (anything else is too inconsistent with Steve’s personality). He then somehow travels back to the MCU timeline unseen. This is the only version that works for me. 

I still can’t come up with any explanation of how he returned the stones. Just traveling back again should create a new timeline. I suppose there could be a minimum change threshold before a new timeline is created.

It's also possible that the Time Stone could be used to prevent the trip from diverging an alternate timeline somehow, if Dr. Strange could instruct Steve on how to use it. (Really though, I don't see why the Time and Space Stones couldn't be used to return all the stones to their proper times/places in those alternate realities without needing to make a delivery trip through the quantum realm. That thought occurred to me during the movie when they were playing keepaway with the gauntlet and announced that Thanos had destroyed the quantum tunnel mechanism.)

[Jeebus Cripes]

You know that clip in the trailer when Steve appears to be pissed and clinching his jaw in the group therapy session? I don't recall seeing it in the film. Makes me wonder what they cut out there. What else is missing that was in the trailer? I know the scene where Scott shows up at the compound was edited to make Nat look like she still had the blond bob. 

[Perfect Xero]

Other than it not making for a trip through the history of the MCU I wonder why no one suggested just going back to some point shortly after the original snap simply taking the stones from Thanos then since they now know where he was hiding.

All the stones in one place, no particular need to worry about the fallout of taking them out of the timelines. Seems like the cleanest option.

[Jeebus Cripes]

7 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Other than it not making for a trip through the history of the MCU I wonder why no one suggested just going back to some point shortly after the original snap simply taking the stones from Thanos then since they now know where he was hiding.

All the stones in one place, no particular need to worry about the fallout of taking them out of the timelines. Seems like the cleanest option.

I thought about this as well. Not much room for hi-jinks and shenanigans then, so I guess this was waved. 

[Anduin]

25 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Other than it not making for a trip through the history of the MCU I wonder why no one suggested just going back to some point shortly after the original snap simply taking the stones from Thanos then since they now know where he was hiding.

All the stones in one place, no particular need to worry about the fallout of taking them out of the timelines. Seems like the cleanest option.

Maybe the writers just didn't think of it.

[Jeebus Cripes]

You could even go back to just before he snapped in the OG timeline. Thor intercepts original Thor and aims for the damned head, they snatch the glove and head back to the present. That's doing a serious solid for that branch off from the timeline. Those folks never even experience the damned snap in the first place. 

[stealinghome]

33 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Other than it not making for a trip through the history of the MCU I wonder why no one suggested just going back to some point shortly after the original snap simply taking the stones from Thanos then since they now know where he was hiding.

All the stones in one place, no particular need to worry about the fallout of taking them out of the timelines. Seems like the cleanest option.

My guess would be the rationale is that with six stones in hand, Thanos would be able to just handily beat the team. I agree though that I thought it was a suggestion that should have been raised to be shot down.

I think I’ve neglected to mention it until now, but I thought Natasha and Tony and someone else (can’t remember whose) late night study session/brainstorming sequence was HILARIOUS. That’s every dorm and college library right now!

3 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Nebula and Rocket and Thor are all going to be way more comfortable on Terra now than Quill is. Actually that gives the GotG more impetus to come back. Nebula seemed to be decent friends with Rhoadey and Thor will want to see Hulk, Valkyrie, Clint and the Asguardians.

I have not generally enjoyed Cheadle’s Rhodey, but I have to say, I LOVED him with Nebula. Disney plus should get a show going for those two...they somehow just played off each other very well.

[Wynterwolf]

3 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

Those folks never even experience the damned snap in the first place. 

I think the issue would be that they were initially trying not to create any alternate timeline (which they fucked up royally anyway), based on what the Ancient One told Bruce.  So their attempt was based on being able to put everything back the way it was (returning the stones once they used them), and then when everything went FUBAR, I guess Steve figured what the hell, he'd make his own too.  (Yikes, yeah still bitter... gotta work on that. 😬)

[Jeebus Cripes]

32 minutes ago, Wynterwolf said:

I think the issue would be that they were initially trying not to create any alternate timeline (which they fucked up royally anyway), based on what the Ancient One told Bruce.  So their attempt was based on being able to put everything back the way it was (returning the stones once they used them), and then when everything went FUBAR, I guess Steve figured what the hell, he'd make his own too.  (Yikes, yeah still bitter... gotta work on that. 😬)

Thing is, Thanos destroys all the stones, like, 20 something days later after the snap? I don't see how snatching the gauntlet right before the snap causes much hardship at all, other than an alternate, awesome snapless timeline. Shit, I'm depressed that this didn't happen now.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[Wynterwolf]

1 minute ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

I don't see how snatching the gauntlet right before the snap causes much hardship at all, other than an alternative, awesome snapless timeline.

Yeah, absolutely.  And they did end up creating a timeline where the snap likely didn't happen when 2014Thanos was dusted.  I'd love to see that timeline!  

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 minute ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, absolutely.  And they did end up creating a timeline where the snap likely didn't happen when 2014Thanos was dusted.  I'd love to see that timeline!  

Ah, I forgot about that!

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

My guess would be the rationale is that with six stones in hand, Thanos would be able to just handily beat the team. I agree though that I thought it was a suggestion that should have been raised to be shot down.

I think I’ve neglected to mention it until now, but I thought Natasha and Tony and someone else (can’t remember whose) late night study session/brainstorming sequence was HILARIOUS. That’s every dorm and college library right now!

It was Banner with Nat and Tony. 

If they didn’t need to make a movie the best time to go back for the stones would probably be on Titan just before Quill punches Thanos. One person to stop Quill, a couple avengers to help remove the gauntlet and Thor to go for the head. Then they would just need to wait for Shuri to remove the stone from Vision. It would create a alternate timeline but the only real change would be stopping the snap. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Guest

[festivus]

4 hours ago, anna0852 said:

Nebula and Rocket and Thor are all going to be way more comfortable on Terra now than Quill is.

I hope they mess with him with a bunch of more current pop culture references he won't understand. 

Yes, he does need to see his grandpa! And I personally need for Rocket to see a Terran trash panda.

[dkb]

9 hours ago, starri said:

I think I'm going to go again this weekend.  I NEVER do that.

I wanted to see it in IMAX this weekend since I haven't seen it in that format yet, and all the good seats are gone again!

I finally managed a Wednesday afternoon screening next week. But ended up seeing it again today in a smaller cinema with regular screen and it was just as good. This is my third time watching it and it was great to see everyone's reactions to things I knew were coming up. I actually cried more than the other 2 times as well. I started welling up when we see Morgan for the first time, and Natasha being the leader of the team, as well as the major emotional moments.

There was a dad with his daughter a few rows ahead of me who had to console her at the end after she got a little emotional 😭 and a man that literally said "NO!" when he realized that Iron Man was dead dead. 

Also this time I really noticed what a great job both RDJ and Chris Evans did.

[Perfect Xero]

A girl sitting behind me let out a loud "EWWW!" when they showed old Steve.

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 minute ago, Perfect Xero said:

A girl sitting behind me let out a loud "EWWW!" when they showed old Steve.

LMAO. He looked alright for an ancient dude. Kind of like Clint Eastwood without all the scary malice in his face. 

1 hour ago, Wynterwolf said:

Yeah, absolutely.  And they did end up creating a timeline where the snap likely didn't happen when 2014Thanos was dusted.  I'd love to see that timeline!  

Been thinking on this... that timeline is very different for Quill in particular. He never meets Gamora. Perhaps the X-Men are in this one and he hooks up with Kitty Pryde. 😉

[raven]

So I am OK with the WWTW stuff.   There's so much I love about this movie - the Hell Yeah moments, Rocket's and Nebula's arcs, expanded Rhody - BUT

I am annoyed by Nat's death and the teeny tiny acknowledgement it gets.  She's been an Avenger a long time; she's holding the place together after the Snap, when Tony's retired and Steve is doing group talks; she doesn't hesitate and pushes for the mission.   I honestly, 100 percent thought that because she and Clint wanted to sacrifice themselves, not each other, that it would be a loophole to get the stone without losing either of them.  Yes, I get that she was supposed to be the sacrifice for Clint to get the stone (or vice versa), but HE didn't give her up; she gave up herself, like he wanted to give up himself.  I was also thinking it would work because Thanos shouldn't have been able to get the soul stone because you don't throw someone you love off of a cliff.  Maybe it's just someone you think you love.

/still bitter.

It also makes the "girl power" moment in this movie not really work for me, as it felt like it was there because "oh hey, we need to show the women together" - I mean, it's not like Carol needs any help - whereas in Infinity War it was perfectly placed with Nat and Okoye showing up to help Wanda "She's not alone".

[tennisgurl]

I was visiting my parents the day before I watched the movie, and I mentioned how the movie is three hours long, and my mom said she didnt know why it needed to be three hours! I was like "mom, if I could have it longer, I probably would! We need to get as much packed into this movie as possible!" 

I mean, we had three hours, and we still didnt get Quill seeing his grandpa, Rocket seeing an Earth raccoon, Steve and Bucky talk (except for one brief scene), Goose the space cat, Thor meeting past Loki, any TV characters except for Jarvis (which was amazing!), science bros...

[catrice2]

I never felt that the Peggy Steve relationship was all that deep, except they were thrown together by circumstances and she was the only woman he ever had any type of real contact with.   That being said, I have always known they were going to send him back so I was not surprised or invested in that, just as I thought they would kill Ironman.  My only surprise was Black Widow, I thought it would be Hawkeye.

Thor was the best part of Infinity War and the worst part of Endgame for me. I feel like they spent too many scenes on his angst and the fat jokes that fell flat and seemed force and out of place.  

[Jaded Sapphire]

As was briefly mentioned earlier in this thread, not only do I think the Steve ending doesn't work but I think Tony deserved better. As much as there was talk about him not being worthy (Nick Fury in Iron Man 2) and him not being willing to sacrifice (Steve in Avengers) all of his movies include him putting himself in danger to save people and most of them include Tony specifically putting his own life on the line to save people:

Iron Man 1 - he almost died

Avengers 1 - he almost died

Avengers 2 - he volunteered to destroy the floating city (with Thor) knowing he could die "This could be a one-way trip"

Avengers Infinity War - Tells Spidey that "This is a one-way ticket" so again expecting to die and almost did against Thanos

Avengers Endgame - Actually dies to save the world

So not only is him sacrificing 'old' from a storytelling point of view, he doesn't get to live with and raise his daughter with Pepper and retire. That is something he's been hoping to do since Avengers 2 (Maybe I'll do like Clint and get a farm with Pepper). After everything he's been through he gets only 5 years of peace. 5 years! It may be an unpopular opinion but I think he was robbed.

[Jeebus Cripes]

1 hour ago, raven said:

It also makes the "girl power" moment in this movie not really work for me, as it felt like it was there because "oh hey, we need to show the women together" - I mean, it's not like Carol needs any help - whereas in Infinity War it was perfectly placed with Nat and Okoye showing up to help Wanda "She's not alone".

That moment wasn't organic at all and that bugged. It was perfection in Infinity War. Don't get me wrong, it was cool to see all the women in a kick ass moment, but it was so very forced.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Jeebus Cripes

[Wynterwolf]

BWAHAHAHAHA... another crackpot theory.  Apologies if someone else has already mentioned something similar, I've tried to keep up with posts, but I know I've missed stuff.  

OurSteve, leaves Bucky as we saw, telling him he'll be back.  Bucky is.,.. not convinced, and he doesn't like being left behind, but he trust's Steve, so he's not going to argue.  But our Steve has some sort of CRAZY PLAN (yeah, I have no idea, but... something Steve-like), he goes back in time and returns the stones (maybe, he might actually be trying to use them also), and then goes off to create another universe for Peggy, not with Peggy.  He helps her find her Steve (we didn't see the dude's face, right?... he could have been REALLY YOUNG Steve), he helps them find Bucky, he helps all of them stop Hydra, he kicks Howard's ass and tells him to be a better dad, and he helps them be ready for Thanos.  They also figure out tech to jump timelines.

So then when we see OldSteve, that's actually the Steve from that universe, not our Steve (but he needs them to think he's our Steve, so they don't look for our Steve).  That's why he has the shield, because Howard made another one for their Sam and OldSteve hasn't needed it in a long time. 

And our Steve is still out there somewhere, intending to come back, but he's still doing... something, and he also wants Sam to be able to be Cap, with Bucky's help, but without Sam having to also deal with Steve's shadow. So that's also why he didn't come back right away.  But OurSteve, does intend to come back, that's why he tells Bucky that 'it'll be alright'.  HA, yes... I think I can live with that.  Also, much better than Kidnapped!Steve.  

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

That moment wasn't organic at all and that bugged. It was perfection in Infinity War, and don't get me wrong, it was cool to see all the women in a kick ass moment, but it was so very forced.

When Peter made the comment about not knowing how Carol was going to get the gauntlet through I was expected a smile and a comment about how she could handle it. “She’s got help” seemed like a really weird choice after she just flew through a ship. It would have worked better if they hadn’t felt they need to bring them all together at once and had just shown a battle sequence prominently featuring the woman.

It felt more like pandering than empowering and it was unnecessary because the woman already had some of the best moments in the entire battle. 

[anna0852]

I'm still stuck on and sad about Nats death. I know we're supposed to get a prequel Black Widow movie at some point but that's not the Natasha I want to see. I don't want to see the recent graduate of the Red Room who's busy racking up red in her Ledger. I like the Nat who's an honorary Aunt to her friends kids and a committed friend to Steve (down throwing a sandwich at him) and who gets emails from a raccoon and who is genuinely in awe of flying through space. The Nat who was tearing up when Nick died and who's been wearing her Arrow necklace for nearly a decade even though she hasn't seen Clint in that time. The Nat that can calm the Hulk and get exasperated about bad time travel jokes. It was breaking my heart a little bit that she was not there for the final battle. Not only that Natasha missed the ultimate Avengers Assemble but also that Scarlett Johansson didn't get to be part of the biggest, baddest cinema scene possibly ever filmed and she's been with the franchise for nearly a decade.

[Guest]

Endgame Writers Know That Femme Avengers Scene Was Pandering

They also talk about Natasha’s death. I find it really irritating that they are talking like it had to be a choice between Clint and Nat like the dumb “soul for a soul” is a real rule. It sounds clever but it really makes no sense and it only exists because they made it up. They found a way to have the characters time travel and reunited Steve and Peggy but they really could figure out a way of killing off one of the original six half way through the movie. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Guest

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

That moment wasn't organic at all and that bugged. It was perfection in Infinity War. Don't get me wrong, it was cool to see all the women in a kick ass moment, but it was so very forced.

The woman were tasked with clearing a path for the most powerful force on that battlefield so it felt cheap to us. Then again only General Okoye and maybe Pepper Potts, had the possibility to get a report of just what Captain Marvel was capable of so the rest of the squad just moved forward as they should have.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Raja

[Wynterwolf]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

like the dumb “soul for a soul” is a real rule.

... and like someone else said, when Steve took the Soul Stone back, he should have gotten a soul in return for giving up the power of the stone!  Thanos probably could have even gotten Gamora back, if he'd been willing to give up the stone rather than destroy it to keep anyone from undoing what he did. 

BUT, it you go with my new happy place theory above, Steve did get Nat when he took the Soul Stone back, but took her with him on whatever the hell he's doing.  That's my new theory and I'm clinging to it for dear life!  I don't want to hate Steve!!!  

[stealinghome]

18 minutes ago, Dani said:

Endgame Writers Know That Femme Avengers Scene Was Pandering

They also talk about Natasha’s death. I find it really irritating that they are talking like it had to be a choice between Clint and Nat like the dumb “soul for a soul” is a real rule. It sounds clever but it really makes no sense and it only exists because they made it up. The found a way to have the characters time travel and reunited Steve and Peggy but they really could figure out a way of killing off one of the original six half way through the movie. 

The person who read a script with Hawkeye sacrificing himself, and then said it should be Natasha, should be fired. Talk about a doozy of an awful script decision/edit.

Knowing that the guys who wrote Endgame also wrote the three Captain America movies, The Dark World, and Infinity War explains so much. One is the best movie Marvel has made to date. One is arguably the worst. And three were far weaker than they could/should have been. Explains so much!

[Anduin]

30 minutes ago, Dani said:

Endgame Writers Know That Femme Avengers Scene Was Pandering

The whole battle was pure pandering/fanservice. That moment was fine.

[Jeebus Cripes]

2 hours ago, Wynterwolf said:

BWAHAHAHAHA... another crackpot theory.  Apologies if someone else has already mentioned something similar, I've tried to keep up with posts, but I know I've missed stuff.  

OurSteve, leaves Bucky as we saw, telling him he'll be back.  Bucky is.,.. not convinced, and he doesn't like being left behind, but he trust's Steve, so he's not going to argue.  But our Steve has some sort of CRAZY PLAN (yeah, I have no idea, but... something Steve-like), he goes back in time and returns the stones (maybe, he might actually be trying to use them also), and then goes off to create another universe for Peggy, not with Peggy.  He helps her find her Steve (we didn't see the dude's face, right?... he could have been REALLY YOUNG Steve), he helps them find Bucky, he helps all of them stop Hydra, he kicks Howard's ass and tells him to be a better dad, and he helps them be ready for Thanos.  They also figure out tech to jump timelines.

So then when we see OldSteve, that's actually the Steve from that universe, not our Steve (but he needs them to think he's our Steve, so they don't look for our Steve).  That's why he has the shield, because Howard made another one for their Sam and OldSteve hasn't needed it in a long time. 

And our Steve is still out there somewhere, intending to come back, but he's still doing... something, and he also wants Sam to be able to be Cap, with Bucky's help, but without Sam having to also deal with Steve's shadow. So that's also why he didn't come back right away.  But OurSteve, does intend to come back, that's why he tells Bucky that 'it'll be alright'.  HA, yes... I think I can live with that.  Also, much better than Kidnapped!Steve.  

LOL. I read one last night that said Steve went back, had his dance with Peg and said farewell, then went and found Bucky and married him! Supposedly, the reason he was so vague about the ring with Sam was because Buck was the husband. 😂

It was clearly Steve dancing with Peggy, BTW. They showed him up close, closing his eyes as they swayed. 

[HunterHunted]

On 4/30/2019 at 8:02 PM, Dee said:

Could Okoye's throwaway line about earthquakes happening in the Atlantic Ocean be foreshadowing Namor, perhaps?

On 4/30/2019 at 8:34 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

Oh that would be nice

On 4/30/2019 at 10:09 PM, Kromm said:

I've already seen four or five YouTube videos with people theorizing this.

I actually hope not. I'm not a huge Namor fan, and I don't really see him as the next good Big Bad.  He's also bound up in the Fox acquisition, and if unwinding that now is going on I'd FAR rather see the better villain Dr. Doom. Yes Namor is fresher and unused onscreen, but Marvel is really going to step right in copycat accusations after the big success of Aquaman if Namor is used now.  Even though Namor is either a villain or an Anti-Hero and Aquaman is a hero.

I'd be okay with Namor being used, but as part of the Fantastic Four vs. for the Avengers films (where the biggest bads always live).  Or for Black Panther 2 (which seems possible given the ties between Namor and BP in the comics in recent years--mainly that Namor and Panther hate each other's guts, if I recall things correctly.

I know that Namor's distribution rights are still with Universal like Hulk's. Perhaps now that Marvel has the rights to the Fantastic Four, Universal might be amenable to letting Marvel use Namor. However when they filmed this movie, the Fox acquisition was a long way off. It's also equally likely that earthquakes are hint about the upcoming Eternals movie. 

[Wynterwolf]

11 hours ago, Jeebus Cripes said:

LOL. I read one last night that said Steve went back, had his dance with Peg and said farewell, then went and found Bucky and married him!

Hey man, whatever helps people get through the night (replacement!Bucky doesn't work for me, but I definitely understand it).  And that's okay, if we saw that it was our Steve dancing... my workaround still works.  In my scenario, the Peggy, Steve and Bucky from that timeline lived ployamorously ever after, and OldSteve had another ring on his other hand to signify that.   😉 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Wynterwolf

[Ohiopirate02]

After thinking about the movie over the last few days and reading others' comments, I have realized why I am ultimately disappointed with it.  Superhero stories are all about found families.  It's a main trope of the genre.  Yes there are love interests and biological family units in the stories, but those are not the core relationships.  We don't read (or watch) these stories to see Steve, Tony, Natasha, etc settle down with "the one" and start a family in the stereotypical hetero-normative way.  But, Endgame puts too much emphasis on these types of relationships. 

I get the feeling that the reason why Natasha sacrifices herself for Clint is because he has a wife and biological children and that is something that she will never have.  I hate this.  Clint was willing to die after going extremely dark in those 5 years without his family.  I was upset when Natasha was willing to die so that he could be with his family.  Clint has changed and the movie did not give me enough to see if he could be a family man again after those 5 years.  Personally, I feel that he went too dark to be able to pick up with his family after undoing the snap.  There was not enough dialog in that scene to convince me otherwise.  

And then we get Steve and Bucky.  After everything Steve did to save Bucky in Civil War, I hated this ending.  Steve stays in the  past to be with his "one true love" Peggy without even a conversation with Bucky.  I don't buy it.  I needed at least one scene where Steve and Bucky discuss this.  

[Kanner]

On 4/26/2019 at 7:27 PM, Lady Calypso said:

At least Steve got his happy ending. I do think that he put things into perspective after having to witness Tony's sacrifice. Tony got to lived a few years of a happy life. He got his wife and daughter. And I think Steve realized that it was his turn to be selfish and to simply settle down. Again, him settling down with Peggy doesn't quite fit in the timeline that we know, but honestly, for me, I'm not even too bothered by it because it was a powerful enough revelation. 

So much yes to this.  I am not sure about the timeline thing and how it worked out with Peggy. I cried so hard when they were dancing. I don't even really care about their romance but Steve got to be happy after sacrificing his life, the disorientation of waking up in the future, the Hydra still exists realization, the break up of the Avengers, his friend trying to murder his best friend (who was a victim too) in cold blood, the lose to Thanos, Nat dying, and Tony dying. It was time to live for himself finally. Is it selfish sure but he earned it. And I do think Bucky knew or suspected what he was going to do.

I felt this was a very strong movie for Steve and Cap. I loved Steve's acknowledgement of not being able to move on when he is telling his group to do so.  Just a reminder that Steve is just a man with flaws. Cap got a lot of the big audience reactions in my theater - the elevator, his ass, the hammer, Avengers Assemble.

How old do we think Steve is on the bench? My years may be off - Born 1918, in the ice 1945 (27), 2011 out of the ice (27), the snap 2018 (34), current 5 years later (39), goes back to 1945 (39), on the bench 2023 (117). Is this right? And he didn't seem like on the verge of death.  Thank you super serum.

[Sakura12]

If we go with Steve went to an alternate timeline then he can change that timeline. He could've married Peggy, stopped Hydra's infiltration of Shield and rescued Bucky. Since the reason an alt timeline exists is because different choices were made. In that timeline Steve could be Captain America from the 40's until he's too old. He knows about Wakanda and could've found his way there and befriended T'Chaka's father and had a Shield made from them instead of vibranium being stolen from them. That doesn't mean other bad things didn't happen in his new reality because people still suck. Then when he gets too old he can go wake up that reality's Steve and he can continue to be Captain America for that timeline.

Knowing Steve he will probably be upset that he didn't get to spend his life with Peggy and Bucky, however he'd be happy that they got to live their lives and were happy together. That timelines Steve won't have the same guilt as the our Steve. 

Then our Steve came back to his timeline probably after Peggy died to give a Shield to Sam. As for how he got back, maybe in that timeline Steve had Tony work on time travel earlier and he found a way to jump between timelines without a giant machine. 

[Raja]

My favorite moment was Steve strapping the broken  shield down on a compound fracture and getting ready to face Thanos alone when "on your left" came from Sam on the radio.

Unlike the Civil War advertising which ruined the "I can do this all day" moment, this advertising team didn't ruin just how desperate Captain Rogers was going in his all the way moment 

[festivus]

12 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I'm still stuck on and sad about Nats death.

Me too. It genuinely hurts me to wonder if she was thinking that her life didn't matter as much as Clint's because he has a significant other and children. I definitely don't think he thought that.

So far the only positive thing for me from this movie besides Rocket getting his family back is Thor. I love that after his heartbreak, his losses and the depression that came from it that at the end he was looking to make a new way for himself. It's a good message for me.

I'll probably go see this again next week and I'll see if I feel any differently about it since I now know what happens. Maybe there will be moments I can enjoy more this time.