Season Two: Marvelous Full-Season Discussion

[Pallas]

Here's the place to discuss the entire second season of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. 

[SailorGirl]

I just finished bingeing the second season -- I personally thought it was even better than the first. I feel like everything was more polished, we got a lot more character development from all the main players -- I felt much more emotionally invested in all of them, and I definitely laughed out loud a lot more than the first season. I also liked that they showed some of the repercussions of Midge's always being "on" and that she's gaining a deeper understanding of both the positives -- and the negatives -- that come with the choice she's made to pursue success as a comedian. 

And on two utterly shallow notes . . . Hello Zachary Levi! I was peripherally aware of him before, but damn, he can show up on my tv screen any ol' time!!! 
And Rufus Sewell. Just this. Rufus Sewell. Any time, any place, any where. 

I'm all in for season 3!! 

[TexasGal]

5 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

And Rufus Sewell. Just this. Rufus Sewell. Any time, any place, any where. 

 

Joel de la Fuente tweeted yesterday about watching Rufus Sewell in another Amazon show, and I was so excited when Google informed it was this one. I know what I'll be binge watching this weekend!!  Is he only in one episode?

[SailorGirl]

16 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

Joel de la Fuente tweeted yesterday about watching Rufus Sewell in another Amazon show, and I was so excited when Google informed it was this one. I know what I'll be binge watching this weekend!!  Is he only in one episode?

Yes, and when you watch it, you'll see why he wouldn't make sense as a recurring character.  Its another great episode in a series full of them. And we get full-on Sewell sexiness. 

And even though it is completely unrelated to MMM other than he's in it, this picture is never a bad thing to have in your day . . . 
 

Edited December 6, 2018 by SailorGirl
who doesn't want to see this picture of RS?

[qtpye]

I binged the entire season as a special treat for myself. I loved every moment and was sad when it was over. 

My greatest nitpick would be the rehabilitation of Joel at the expense of other characters, though thankfully not Midge (at least not usually). 

Last season Joel happily left his wife and children to play with some silly bimbo, he also freely stole material from Bob Newhart, and claimed that they owned their apartment when it was in his father’s name. His parents were more working class than his in laws but they still retained some dignity, even if his father could be a jerk. This season his parents are idiots who are hiding money all over the place (that they can not find) and need Joel to explain the benefits of a bank loan. Joel’s mother was never the posh fashion plate Midge’s mother is, but she still looked nice last season. This year she looks like a crazy person in unflattering dresses and gambling all night at mahjong. Joel is comes off looking like a saint for taking care and loving these two. I hated it when Joel had to rescue Susie from the closet and was ever so manly punching out the guy that would not pay them. The biggest eye roll was all the ladies in the Catskills fawning over Joel like he was Elvis Presley and of course now, conviently, he only has eyes for Midge. A whole resort full of eligible men and the woman all only want the unexceptional looking guy who deserted his wife and children...totally believable. 

I like Midge’s mom but sometimes it’s hard to relate to someone whose biggest issue seems to be that she does not know what to do with herself as a “lady of leisure”.  A lot of modern day women would kill to have her lifestyle of privilege.

Ovetall, excellent series and can not wait for the third season.

[DianeDobbler]

The problem with Joel is not the character but the actor. All the rehab in the world isn't going to give him charm and charisma. Or sex appeal. Plenty of jerks who left their wives and regretted it have won audience approval because of one or all three attributes plus effective acting and an appealing personality. None of which is present in this actor in this role. You can't write it into him.

[Pogojoco]

On the last episode, and it's very funny and sparkly, in general. 

The Benjamin stuff was really rushed. And there is entirely too much Joel. 

[ChlcGirl]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

 

My greatest nitpick would be the rehabilitation of Joel at the expense of other characters, though thankfully not Midge (at least not usually). 

Last season Joel happily left his wife and children to play with some silly bimbo, he also freely stole material from Bob Newhart, and claimed that they owned their apartment when it was in his father’s name. His parents were more working class than his in laws but they still retained some dignity, even if his father could be a jerk. This season his parents are idiots who are hiding money all over the place (that they can not find) and need Joel to explain the benefits of a bank loan. Joel’s mother was never the posh fashion plate Midge’s mother is, but she still looked nice last season. This year she looks like a crazy person in unflattering dresses and gambling all night at mahjong. Joel is comes off looking like a saint for taking care and loving these two. I hated it when Joel had to rescue Susie from the closet and was ever so manly punching out the guy that would not pay them. The biggest eye roll was all the ladies in the Catskills fawning over Joel like he was Elvis Presley and of course now, conviently, he only has eyes for Midge. A whole resort full of eligible men and the woman all only want the unexceptional looking guy who deserted his wife and children...totally believable. 

I put a lot of the stuff with Joel's parents down to ASP being .. ASP.  It happened in The Gilmore Girls.  During the first season, things were pleasantly eccentric but with each season after, things got more and more ridiculously over the top.  By the end of the seventh season it was like Stars Hollow was inhabited entirely by mental patients.  I had hoped that age would have curtailed this quirk in Amy but alas.  As soon as they started talking about Joel's mother having an accounting system based in ancient aramaic and the absence of the number 6 I knew we were in for it.

I loved the season overall but I did find myself disappointed in Midge's choice at the end.  Walking away from your kids for 6 months without a second thought? Throwing over a decent man who loved and accepted her without being jealous of her talent to go to JOEL?  Not smart.

[qtpye]

8 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

The problem with Joel is not the character but the actor. All the rehab in the world isn't going to give him charm and charisma. Or sex appeal. Plenty of jerks who left their wives and regretted it have won audience approval because of one or all three attributes plus effective acting and an appealing personality. None of which is present in this actor in this role. You can't write it into him.

 

7 hours ago, ChlcGirl said:

I put a lot of the stuff with Joel's parents down to ASP being .. ASP.  It happened in The Gilmore Girls.  During the first season, things were pleasantly eccentric but with each season after, things got more and more ridiculously over the top.  By the end of the seventh season it was like Stars Hollow was inhabited entirely by mental patients.  I had hoped that age would have curtailed this quirk in Amy but alas.  As soon as they started talking about Joel's mother having an accounting system based in ancient aramaic and the absence of the number 6 I knew we were in for it.

I loved the season overall but I did find myself disappointed in Midge's choice at the end.  Walking away from your kids for 6 months without a second thought? Throwing over a decent man who loved and accepted her without being jealous of her talent to go to JOEL?  Not smart.

Agreed on both points. If they had been patient with the Joel rehabilitation it would have been much better. Last year when Joel stole material from Newhart, he did not even seem to realize that he was wrong for doing so. He rejected     Midge again at the beginning of this season because he can not take being married to a comedian. The doctor happily accepts Midge for everything she is where Joel wanted her to choose. I liked the contrast between Midge’s and Joel’s parents because the educated did not look like snobs and the working class did not look like slobs. Now Joel’s parents can barely function without him and the dad has been stealing from him since he was a child.

Edited December 7, 2018 by qtpye

[retrograde]

Enjoyed the season, but it could've done with a lot less Joel and a lot more Lenny Bruce. I maintain my critique from season one that it's a shame they didn't go with a Lenny Bruce-esque character to have more options there. I don't think he was ever intended to be anything other that Midge's antihero guru, but it's unfortunate for the show he wound up being more interesting and charismatic than the leading man (or whatever Joel is). 

The stuff with Benjamin did feel rushed, but at least he had chemistry with Midge and was a fun character.

[AuntieMame]

Thanks to everyone for putting their finger on just how much the character and actor of Joel puts a damper on this wonderful series. I can never quite buy the idea that Midge, even a Midge trained for the fifties milieu, would be deeply in love with Joel. Even given the connection of shared children. 

What I can believe, and find especially heartbreaking, is the inherent sexism that Joel absolutely refused to support Midge’s talent in the context of a marriage and that his male pride, privilege and prerogative were the reasons he couldn’t and wouldn’t. This was underlined in the last scene of the season when Midge realized she couldn’t marry the doctor. Yes, he liked the real Midge, but I suspect that after marriage there would be conflict around Midge pursuing her comedy career versus being a doctor’s wife. 

This all made me so sad. Because talented women are still an issue. Very few marriages would even acknowledge much less support the idea that the female half was more talented and that support should go to her career. Think about all of the articles written in the last decade about the strain on marriages when the wife makes more money. Or the fact that more women are graduating from college and getting more seats in the professional schools. These women are basically educating themselves out of the marriage market say the articles and even if some of it is get back in your place propaganda, that doesn’t make it wrong. Seeing Midge free and happy and pursuing her talent made me both happy and sad because for women there is a price for that pursuit. 

The sad thing is that this is probably true. And since all women are taught that their looks, desirability and marriagability are the main criteria that they and their lives are judged on, these scenes were brilliant and poignant. The price of genius and talent in women and developing it is a life as a partial outcast, either alone, in a conflicted marriage, or ignore your talent and sacrifice your true self for social acceptance. 

I felt for Midge and all women here and was glad she didn’t marry the doctor. He was a charming robot and I didn’t see things ultimately going well. 

I love, love, love the singer who is taking Midge on tour. I’ll write about their charming scene in the ladies in the episode thread as that thread needs posts. 

Finally, I want to shout out to the costume designer who is doing an amazing job. Her color sense is wonderful and her techniques for putting those draped dresses together? Just wow. She manages to be period authentic and give the tiniest nod to the contemporary eye. I hope she gets nominated because those clothes are all more complex than they appear. I loved Abe’s Paris leather coat and Midge’s pinkish trapeze jacket with the rounded edges and the diagonal pockets. Her dresses are of course beautiful. It goes without saying that the milliner is having a field day.  

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Thanks to everyone for putting their finger on just how much the character and actor of Joel puts a damper on this wonderful series. I can never quite buy the idea that Midge, even a Midge trained for the fifties milieu, would be deeply in love with Joel. Even given the connection of shared children. 

What I can believe, and find especially heartbreaking, is the inherent sexism that Joel absolutely refused to support Midge’s talent in the context of a marriage and that his male pride, privilege and prerogative were the reasons he couldn’t and wouldn’t. This was underlined in the last scene of the season when Midge realized she couldn’t marry the doctor. Yes, he liked the real Midge, but I suspect that after marriage there would be conflict around Midge pursuing her comedy career versus being a doctor’s wife. 

This all made me so sad. Because talented women are still an issue. Very few marriages would even acknowledge much less support the idea that the female half was more talented and that support should go to her career. Think about all of the articles written in the last decade about the strain on marriages when the wife makes more money. Or the fact that more women are graduating from college and getting more seats in the professional schools. These women are basically educating themselves out of the marriage market say the articles and even if some of it is get back in your place propaganda, that doesn’t make it wrong. Seeing Midge free and happy and pursuing her talent made me both happy and sad because for women there is a price for that pursuit. 

The sad thing is that this is probably true. And since all women are taught that their looks, desirability and marriagability are the main criteria that they and their lives are judged on, these scenes were brilliant and poignant. The price of genius and talent in women and developing it is a life as a partial outcast, either alone, in a conflicted marriage, or ignore your talent and sacrifice your true self for social acceptance. 

I felt for Midge and all women here and was glad she didn’t marry the doctor. He was a charming robot and I didn’t see things ultimately going well. 

I love, love, love the singer who is taking Midge on tour. I’ll write about their charming scene in the ladies in the episode thread as that thread needs posts. 

Finally, I want to shout out to the costume designer who is doing an amazing job. Her color sense is wonderful and her techniques for putting those draped dresses together? Just wow. She manages to be period authentic and give the tiniest nod to the contemporary eye. I hope she gets nominated because those clothes are all more complex than they appear. I loved Abe’s Paris leather coat and Midge’s pinkish trapeze jacket with the rounded edges and the diagonal pockets. Her dresses are of course beautiful. It goes without saying that the milliner is having a field day.  

Thank you for making the wonderful point about how Joel is let off the hook for his sexism because why would a man want a wife like that?  If Joel was a woman and Midge a man, Joel would be considered a horrible shrew who was not properly “standing by their man”.

The clothes and the sets are total eye candy and make the show extremely pleasant to watch.

[AuntieMame]

The even bigger point is the subtle and not so subtle ways that talented women are sandbagged and sidelined and punished and then told that they don’t even exist. All to keep male superiority in place. This is a bigger thing than just the sexism of one guy. I actually admired Joel for being honest enough to state it outright. 

Reiterating that I don’t think the doctor would have been much better after marriage. He would want all of the wifely functions fulfilled, emotional labor, household management even when that means management of the servants, entertaining and most likely at least one child of his own. 

Midge’s realization that she would be always alone if she wanted to grow herself? Be herself? That is the price. Brilliant and sad. 

[kathe5133]

Every time "Lenny Bruce" is on the screen I see in my mind his last photo.  Dead, next to the toilet, with a needle in his arm.  Knowing how the real Lenny Bruce lived and ended his life, I don't understand why we need to see more of him.

[Browndog319]

10 minutes ago, kathe5133 said:

Every time "Lenny Bruce" is on the screen I see in my mind his last photo.  Dead, next to the toilet, with a needle in his arm.  Knowing how the real Lenny Bruce lived and ended his life, I don't understand why we need to see more of him.

Because he was a trailblazer for the rights of an artist for free speech...tragic ending but doesn’t mean he wasn’t brilliant and world changing 

[kathe5133]

33 minutes ago, Browndog319 said:

Because he was a trailblazer for the rights of an artist for free speech...tragic ending but doesn’t mean he wasn’t brilliant and world changing 

Oh don't get me wrong, he was all that, but he lived his life on the seedy side.  Maybe we could say that Midge could have changed all that, but maybe he could of dragged her down with him.  I get that they want to tie in that like Lenny, Midge is a groundbreaking performer, but if they are going to use a real life character, make him real, or don't use him.  Mention him like they do Bob Newhart, but don't portray him.

[2727]

So many women's swing overcoats, amen.

[Browndog319]

1 hour ago, kathe5133 said:

Oh don't get me wrong, he was all that, but he lived his life on the seedy side.  Maybe we could say that Midge could have changed all that, but maybe he could of dragged her down with him.  I get that they want to tie in that like Lenny, Midge is a groundbreaking performer, but if they are going to use a real life character, make him real, or don't use him.  Mention him like they do Bob Newhart, but don't portray him.

Bob Newhart so not groundbreaking... yawn

I sort of hear you. I love that they made him a character. And comedy has a seedy side. Even the ones who appear to be squeaky clean can turn out to be Bill Cosby who was doing what he did to women back in the 60s... thank you, I’ll take Lenny Bruce.

[pivot]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:28 PM, DianeDobbler said:

The problem with Joel is not the character but the actor. All the rehab in the world isn't going to give him charm and charisma. Or sex appeal. Plenty of jerks who left their wives and regretted it have won audience approval because of one or all three attributes plus effective acting and an appealing personality. None of which is present in this actor in this role. You can't write it into him.

It's both the character and the actor. The character is a loser and all the revisionist history isn't going to change that. But the actor just sucks in this role and is getting outacted in every scene he's in. Though had they cast the Lenny Bruce actor as Joel, I'd buy Midges obsession. Those two have insane chemistry.  However, The main problem with Joel is that he's the biggest bum note in the series. Plus AMP  is much like Marti Nixon in her ability to fall in love with terrible characters the audience hates and try to change our minds by shoving him down our throats and make all the other characters take a backseat to her character crush (see Christopher from Gilmore Girls and Spike from Buffy). That plus the decision to make Rose just as weird as her daughter were the only downsides of this season. 

 

I could have done without the Paris episodes and more Catskills episodes but overall this show was just a delight this season and I am happy it didn't suffer from the sophomore slump.

[shapeshifter]

I was fine with almost everything this season, including Joel and Midge's choice.

Infinite awards deserved.

And all done without gratuitous sex and violence.

Edited December 9, 2018 by shapeshifter

[debraran]

So many of my Jewish neighbors go the the Catskills every summer but they don't have that much fun. ; ) I liked Paris and Catskills, very funny.

I always love Midge's clothes but nothing this year is as sweet as this one. I don't like 50's clothes for comfort but this was adorable.  Anyone else have a favorite outfit. ; )

[2727]

Sorry to say, but the wedding reception episode ended my enjoyment of the show.

Midge's manic pixie dream girl persona just got really old -- she manages everyone else's problems on the switchboard, she fixes all the makeup counter customers in under a minute, she insists on being the wedding planner for her friend, she charms the reclusive artist to get him to sell, she won the Catskills bathing suit contest 8 years in a row, etc. Give me a -- if I may quote Midge -- fucking break already.

Joel and his parents continued to be annoying in a straightforwardly annoying way.

I was mainly watching for Susie, anyway. Her scenes in the empty Weissman apartment (she used the pink soap!) were a highlight of the season. So happy Alex won the Emmy last year and hoping for more.

Edited December 10, 2018 by 2727

[shron17]

1 hour ago, 2727 said:

Sorry to say, but the wedding reception episode ended my enjoyment of the show.

You might want to go a little farther, when you have a chance.  Susie has some even better scenes in episodes 4, 5 and 6.

[shapeshifter]

I was hoping the season would end with Rose and Abe living in Paris.
It just occurred to me that these lines following Abe's announcement that he's leaving the university give hope:

     [Rose] Colombia owns our apartment, Abe.
     [Abe] Yes they do.
     [Rose] So, what do we do? Move in with Miriam and Benjamin?

For the next year I will imagine them in that great big beautiful apartment in Paris with Midge stopping in during her European tour.
And in the Parisian atmosphere, they will be proud of her--plus, Rose loves Shy Baldwin.

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I was hoping the season would end with Rose and Abe living in Paris.
It just occurred to me that these lines following Abe's announcement that he's leaving the university give hope:

     [Rose] Colombia owns our apartment, Abe.
     [Abe] Yes they do.
     [Rose] So, what do we do? Move in with Miriam and Benjamin?

For the next year I will imagine them in that great big beautiful apartment in Paris with Midge stopping in during her European tour.
And in the Parisian atmosphere, they will be proud of her--plus, Rose loves Shy Baldwin.

That would be nice. I would like for them to live out the rest of their days being happy and enjoying themselves instead of constantly worrying about Midge’s drama or being a constant babysitter to her kids, particularly now that it looks like Joel is back in the picture.

[TexasGal]

Why did the Maisels take out mob loans when they had tens of thousands of dollars hidden in the building?

[sacrebleu]

Agree with those getting a little tired of Midge "all-awesome all-the-time!" Maisel. I think it would be good to see more negative reaction to her growing in confidence as a comedienne (bombing at the wedding reception) I'd like to see friends get a little fed up with her grabbing the spotlight at any opportunity.

 

I mean, Jesus, she even put together a tight ten at that nightclub in Paris that killed. She killed despite freaking out over her dad being in the audience, she killed in the last spot of the night during the telethon. Except for being censored over the pregnancy bit-- and the less than stellar road trip-- we don't see Midge growing as a performer, we just see her succeeding.

I kept waiting for her jokes about her dad's project to bite him in the ass-- I thought that's where they were going with the secret meeting stuff-- but nope. Also, give Tony Shaloub more to do-- he's so great.

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, TexasGal said:

Why did the Maisels take out mob loans when they had tens of thousands of dollars hidden in the building?

Because in order for Joel not to look like a spoiled princeling that he semed like in season 1, they had to retcon his parents being complete idiots without him.  Luckily, it is such a good show that most of it was pretty funny. Even when his father just gives him a huge sum of money, they have to qualify it with him stealing money from Joel for many years.

[Mrs peel]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

That would be nice. I would like for them to live out the rest of their days being happy and enjoying themselves instead of constantly worrying about Midge’s drama or being a constant babysitter to her kids, particularly now that it looks like Joel is back in the picture.

But the meeting Abe had with the lawyer son of an old friend seemed to indicate he was going to get involved in some social justice stuff (and there was the reference during his conversation with - I think - his son about Abe's "past" being an issue for Bell Labs).  So I don't think he's going back to Paris.

I agree with everyone about how Midge is being shown as a great comedian instead of allowing us to see her grow.  And the bad behavior at the wedding and missing the shower, as well as the "yeah, let's go away for 6 months without giving any consideration to anyone else" speaks to Midge being very self-involved.  Which isn't really new; she wanted/needed the "classic 6" apartment in NYC regardless of whether she and her husband could afford it; she moves back in with her parents and leaves the parenting to others, etc. 

The writers truly want us to forget she even has kids, because the Catskills episodes should have shown more with the children. 

The Benjamin relationship was rushed, and I feel we don't really know enough about him to know whether he would be ok with the realities of Midge's career.  He certainly seemed completely self-sufficient, not needing the classic (Jewish) wife.

Do we think Susie is going to Europe?  Or staying behind to manage her new client?  I had the sense she would/was required to drop Midge.  Though that entire sub-plot made no sense - why would an established comedian want to hire Susie?  I get she wanted someone committed to her client, that her current manager won't encourage her desire to be a serious actress, but Susie has no real connections.  Never mind the question of whether she could possibly make the switch to serious acting when she's so beloved as she is.  Can I say how much I love that actress?  Blanking on her name, but she's great in everything I've seen.

[greekmom]

Are we getting anymore episodes past the 10 for Season 2?

[shapeshifter]

47 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Are we getting anymore episodes past the 10 for Season 2?

no. sorry.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

But the meeting Abe had with the lawyer son of an old friend seemed to indicate he was going to get involved in some social justice stuff (and there was the reference during his conversation with - I think - his son about Abe's "past" being an issue for Bell Labs).  So I don't think he's going back to Paris.

I agree with everyone about how Midge is being shown as a great comedian instead of allowing us to see her grow.  And the bad behavior at the wedding and missing the shower, as well as the "yeah, let's go away for 6 months without giving any consideration to anyone else" speaks to Midge being very self-involved.  Which isn't really new; she wanted/needed the "classic 6" apartment in NYC regardless of whether she and her husband could afford it; she moves back in with her parents and leaves the parenting to others, etc. 

The writers truly want us to forget she even has kids, because the Catskills episodes should have shown more with the children. 

The Benjamin relationship was rushed, and I feel we don't really know enough about him to know whether he would be ok with the realities of Midge's career.  He certainly seemed completely self-sufficient, not needing the classic (Jewish) wife.

Do we think Susie is going to Europe?  Or staying behind to manage her new client?  I had the sense she would/was required to drop Midge.  Though that entire sub-plot made no sense - why would an established comedian want to hire Susie?  I get she wanted someone committed to her client, that her current manager won't encourage her desire to be a serious actress, but Susie has no real connections.  Never mind the question of whether she could possibly make the switch to serious acting when she's so beloved as she is.  Can I say how much I love that actress?  Blanking on her name, but she's great in everything I've seen.

Midge is a great character but her flaws tend to be she is shallow and self absorbed. Her pride in winning the bathing suit competition eight years running seemed a little silly to me, even though she has a great figure. I wonder who pays for all her clothes and salon appointments? How she dresses would be way beyond the salary of shop girl. Perhaps she had all the clothes from before, though she seems like the type to shudder at wearing last season’s fashions. Of course Midge would have a handsome and eligible doctor who is crazy about her fall into her lapand choose Joel. I wonder how she would have a different attitude if she did not have a life of great privileges, even while separated?

[Pallas]

3 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

Do we think Susie is going to Europe?  Or staying behind to manage her new client?  I had the sense she would/was required to drop Midge.  Though that entire sub-plot made no sense - why would an established comedian want to hire Susie? 

To win. If Sophie were clever, she might not even insist that Susie drop Midge -- only insist that Susie let Midge know that she now also represented Sophie. Then wait for the venom to take hold. Midge and Susie fall out; Midge and Susie part ways; Midge's career takes a hit; and anytime after that, Sophie could fire Susie.

[winter]

On 12/7/2018 at 3:10 AM, TexasGal said:

Joel de la Fuente tweeted yesterday about watching Rufus Sewell in another Amazon show, and I was so excited when Google informed it was this one. I know what I'll be binge watching this weekend!!  Is he only in one episode?

yes. and she gave him the wrong answer when he asked if she was sure she wouldn't sleep with him. ;)

I see a possible season 3 dilemma.

2 men...

was a dna test invented in 1959?

hmmmm....

also...I wonder if Joel will accompany her for the 6 months and maybe sans kids?

probably too long..but 6 months away is also a loooong time.

Edited December 11, 2018 by winter
spelling

[Bec]

6 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

The Benjamin relationship was rushed, and I feel we don't really know enough about him to know whether he would be ok with the realities of Midge's career.  He certainly seemed completely self-sufficient, not needing the classic (Jewish) wife.

I agree it was rushed. But the show took the effort to write Benjamin as such an independent thinker who refuses to conform to society's expectations. So it confuses me that Midge would just assume he wouldn't be cool with her going on tour with Shy Baldwin. I know it's the 1950s, but it couldn't hurt to at least tell him and see how he reacts.

She never told Benjamin, right? I didn't just miss a scene somewhere?

Sure would be ironic if Benjamin would have been completely supportive of her rising stardom, but they break up because she cheated on him based on the assumption he wouldn't be supportive. And cheated with a sad sack who will always be in her life because they have children in common, no less!

If the show was trying to present a situation in which she must choose between marriage and career, they didn't do it very well, because while we saw Joel tell her she can't have both, we never see Benjamin do the same. Not even a little!

[debraran]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Midge is a great character but her flaws tend to be she is shallow and self absorbed. Her pride in winning the bathing suit competition eight years running seemed a little silly to me, even though she has a great figure. I wonder who pays for all her clothes and salon appointments? How she dresses would be way beyond the salary of shop girl. Perhaps she had all the clothes from before, though she seems like the type to shudder at wearing last season’s fashions. Of course Midge would have a handsome and eligible doctor who is crazy about her fall into her lapand choose Joel. I wonder how she would have a different attitude if she did not have a life of great privileges, even while separated?

I feel the same way and have seen many rich women like her. It's like a bubble, but her ego is certainly well massaged. Her looks are her looks (although can you imagine that bedtime routine with makeup?) but it also made her go after her first job and career. It wasn't total insecurity that I see many times with women who look very good, like they are afraid everyone will see all their faults. Midge is just out there and seems to know hers.

I know not every woman is motherly and many kids from richer families are raised by nanny's but I feel bad watching her act like she doesn't have children. I ran a marathon once and was away a day a missed mine. lol  They don't even eat together! I'm glad they have staff that seems to care. There is not even a second thought of going on the road or being away. The actress said on a talk show, Miriam's worst Hanukah gift would be another kid. Probably, but I didn't laugh. ; /

Edited December 11, 2018 by debraran

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, debraran said:

know not every woman is motherly and many kids from richer families are raised by nanny's but I feel bad watching her act like she doesn't have children

We do see Miriam briefly excited about Esther's first word, and we do see her excited to hold her friend's newborn, so I see her as being at least as motherly as mothers who put their 6-month-old children in daycare for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week—which is now the norm in a society that requires 2 full-time salaries to pay the bills. At least Midge declared that she would not be having another baby, which is the responsible thing to do at this point.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, debraran said:

I feel the same way and have seen many rich women like her. It's like a bubble, but her ego is certainly well massaged. Her looks are her looks (although can you imagine that bedtime routine with makeup?) but it also made her go after her first job and career. It wasn't total insecurity that I see many times with women who look very good, like they are afraid everyone will see all their faults. Midge is just out there and seems to know hers.

I know not every woman is motherly and many kids from richer families are raised by nanny's but I feel bad watching her act like she doesn't have children. I ran a marathon once and was away a day a missed mine. lol  They don't even eat together! I'm glad they have staff that seems to care. There is not even a second thought of going on the road or being away. The actress said on a talk show, Miriam's worst Hanukah gift would be another kid. Probably, but I didn't laugh. ; /

 

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

We do see Miriam briefly excited about Esther's first word, and we do see her excited to hold her friend's newborn, so I see her as being at least as motherly as mothers who put their 6-month-old children in daycare for 10 hours a day, 5 days a week—which is now the norm in a society that requires 2 full-time salaries to pay the bills. At least Midge declared that she would not be having another baby, which is the responsible thing to do at this point.

In the finale when she was talking about three before 30 like her friend, I was kinda like “You got to be kidding me”. It never occurred to me that she would ever want another child, let alone be sad about it. The thing is I doubt Midge’s department store job is doing much to support her lavish lifestyle. In today’s world we would really get on her for not spending more time with her kids even though the wealthy in our society have nannies. I also kind of wonder if there is anyone in her group that has any ambitions beyond being a wife and mother? The Jewish society of Midge’s socioeconomic  group was famous for creating a lot of pioneers and Trail Blazers of intellectual feminist movement.  I also wonder how Midge would react  if she is not automatically the smartest woman in the room. She might be very welcoming or It might actually intimidate her a little bit.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I also kind of wonder if there is anyone in her group that has any ambitions beyond being a wife and mother? The Jewish society of Midge’s socioeconomic  group was famous for creating a lot of pioneers and Trail Blazers of intellectual feminist movement.

--not that we have seen "in her group," but they brought back the political activist feminist from last season for a couple of lines in which Midge said she planned to show up at a rally. That is the extent of the writers nod to those trail blazers.
Was there much intersection between political feminists and comediennes? That will probably dictate their visibility in the future.

[txhorns79]

What I find interesting is the season ends with Midge, along with Abe, not being able to see beyond their own desires to consider other people.  With Midge, her impulse with Benjamin is essentially to end the relationship (when she was excited to be marrying him earlier in the episode) rather than give him a voice in the decision making.  She gives slightly more than no consideration as to what will happen to her kids while she is away, nor does she give much thought to the burden she is placing on their caretakers.   With Abe, he essentially blows up his life and tells Rose after he's already made his decision.  I mean, can you imagine having to uproot your comfortable life because your spouse unilaterally decides he no longer wants it?  I mean, at least with Midge, her behavior is somewhat understandable as she's being offered a huge break.  

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

What I find interesting is the season ends with Midge, along with Abe, not being able to see beyond their own desires to consider other people.  With Midge, her impulse with Benjamin is essentially to end the relationship (when she was excited to be marrying him earlier in the episode) rather than give him a voice in the decision making.  She gives slightly more than no consideration as to what will happen to her kids while she is away, nor does she give much thought to the burden she is placing on their caretakers.   With Abe, he essentially blows up his life and tells Rose after he's already made his decision.  I mean, can you imagine having to uproot your comfortable life because your spouse unilaterally decides he no longer wants it?  I mean, at least with Midge, her behavior is somewhat understandable as she's being offered a huge break.  

Also because he is tenured he could just take a long sabbatical and still keep the apartment. He is in a great position where he does not have to work to get paid.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Also because he is tenured he could just take a long sabbatical and still keep the apartment. He is in a great position where he does not have to work to get paid.

I think Abe is being ridiculous.  If I were Rose, I would have cleared out the bank accounts and moved back to France immediately. 

[winter]

Knowing the apt. Comes with Abe's job goes a little way to explaining how they maintain that lifestyle. I'm having to include Rose as inheriting wealth as well though, (in my mind)to make it work. 😀

It is very obvious Ms Bronahan has not yet had children. That beautiful figure! And our genius writer also has not, so we need to be a bit lenient. Personally it does not bother me one bit..in fact I find it funny and not necessary for kids to be included much.

For me both seasons have been an outstanding success.

Edited December 11, 2018 by winter

[debraran]

1 hour ago, winter said:

Knowing the apt. Comes with Abe's job goes a little way to explaining how they maintain that lifestyle. I'm having to include Rose as inheriting wealth as well though, (in my mind)to make it work. 😀

It is very obvious Ms Bronahan has not yet had children. That beautiful figure! And our genius writer also has not, so we need to be a bit lenient. Personally it does not bother me one bit..in fact I find it funny and not necessary for kids to be included much.

For me both seasons have been an outstanding success.

 

I have a feeling they had money and having a home for part of his job, have more to spend. My daughter's boyfriend's dad had a house through his school 3/4 of his working life and they finally bought a small home in their late 50's. He wasn't paid as much but they still could save. It is a nice perk.  Money is there for sure and I know Midge doesn't need a job to afford clothes and the makeup etc she gets. They do seem to want her to be self sufficient though which is good and get married.  I know some families where just getting married was enough.

I doubt with next season we will see Miriam home much or her kids and I suppose that one area, I wont relate too. I could never be that uninvolved even with money. But I understood her Mom wanting escape to Paris and I like how she was guiding the young women at the college to see the reality around them and maybe in the future, they will fight for more women teachers, etc. Sure she wanted them to find good "business husbands" but you can see she is growing.

I hope if it continues, they show more growth and less stereotypes (not as funny if overused) I don't think some of the vulgar speech is funny, some is, but I always liked the "cleaner" comics who observed others, Seinfeld, Cosby, Jim Gaffigan, David Brenner,  etc.  As a mother too, she should mix it up and not just be a "shock comic" although I realize her niche is being funny raunchy and a woman in the 50's.

Edited December 11, 2018 by debraran

[Jadzia]

I loved the season overall, but one thing bugged me and didn't really make sense to me, storytelling-wise.

There were several episodes where Joel lamented about how he just wanted to be forgiven, blah blah. But in the first episode flashback, they showed that Miriam did want to take him back, but HE was the one who couldn't handle her making comedy about their relationship.

I feel the later scenes would have made so much more sense without that flashback. Because she did forgive him. He was the one who couldn't forgive her for being a comedian.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Jadzia said:

I loved the season overall, but one thing bugged me and didn't really make sense to me, storytelling-wise.

There were several episodes where Joel lamented about how he just wanted to be forgiven, blah blah. But in the first episode flashback, they showed that Miriam did want to take him back, but HE was the one who couldn't handle her making comedy about their relationship.

I feel the later scenes would have made so much more sense without that flashback. Because she did forgive him. He was the one who couldn't forgive her for being a comedian.

Joel was also being very promiscuous. I think he wanted to "have his cake and eat it too."

[quangtran]

I didn't like Joel in season one, thought he was mostly okay in season 2 but hope his screentime is reduced in season 3.

On 12/7/2018 at 6:46 AM, qtpye said:

My greatest nitpick would be the rehabilitation of Joel at the expense of other characters, though thankfully not Midge (at least not usually). 

This season his parents are idiots who are hiding money all over the place (that they can not find) and need Joel to explain the benefits of a bank loan. Joel’s mother was never the posh fashion plate Midge’s mother is, but she still looked nice last season. This year she looks like a crazy person in unflattering dresses and gambling all night at mahjong. Joel is comes off looking like a saint for taking care and loving these two. I hated it when Joel had to rescue Susie from the closet and was ever so manly punching out the guy that would not pay them.

Not sure I completely agree with this. Some of the stuff with Joel's parent's didn't make sense (like how they took huge loans but had lots saved) but they aren't significant enough for me to care whether they were ruined just to prop up Joel. Also, his rehabilitation has already started in season one when he fought for a promotion and worked hard to set his family for life.  Him suggesting that this father own the building is no different then convincing the board of his old job to become the supplier.

6 hours ago, Jadzia said:

There were several episodes where Joel lamented about how he just wanted to be forgiven, blah blah. But in the first episode flashback, they showed that Miriam did want to take him back, but HE was the one who couldn't handle her making comedy about their relationship.

I don't see this as a story issue, but as a more realistic take on a guilty person. Midge's forgiveness alone isn't going to make him quash all his guilt. It'll hang over his head for the rest of his life and everyone will perceive him differently.

[Bec]

One scene before the scene with Joel hitting some balls and moping about wanting to be forgiven, he got pissy at Midge about "handing off" his children to another man without asking him (he just learned that Ethan met Benjamin), and while they were arguing back and forth, she yelled "I didn't leave you, you left me!", showing deep down inside she is actually still pretty damn angry at him, despite the amicable exterior. (And then Joel whined "you left me back!" like a petulant child.)

Honestly, I was like "go Midge!" for throwing that in his face. I've got zero patience for Joel's self-pity. He brought all this on himself. She didn't "leave" him - she gave him another chance when she didn't have to, and he blew it. I don't think he grovelled nearly enough yet to earn Midge's forgiveness. She's been far too nice to him and gave him far too many chances as it is.

He's got some nerve getting so bent out of shape over Ethan meeting Benjamin for a minute, when Midge let Ethan stay with him overnight back in season one, even though his mistress was living with him and it was a just an unpleasant surprise sprung on Midge.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, quangtran said:

Some of the stuff with Joel's parent's didn't make sense (like how they took huge loans but had lots saved)

I think this reflects a mentality of having lived through The Great Depression. The stashed money was for the inevitable rainy day. If the show ever flashes forward to the recession of the 70s, Joel's elderly parents might be chastising him for having spent the stashed money.

 

25 minutes ago, Bec said:

He's got some nerve getting so bent out of shape over Ethan meeting Benjamin for a minute, when Midge let Ethan stay with him overnight back in season one, even though his mistress was living with him and it was a just an unpleasant surprise sprung on Midge.

Ooo! Touché! I wonder if the writers were thinking of this or forgot it.

Edited December 12, 2018 by shapeshifter

[debraran]

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I think this reflects a mentality of having lived through The Great Depression. The stashed money was for the inevitable rainy day. If the show ever flashes forward to the recession of the 70s, Joel's elderly parents might be chastising him for having spent the stashed money.

 

Ooo! Touché! I wonder if the writers were thinking of this or forgot it.

 

I think they forgot, that would or should have been her comeback, and it would have been dead on target since Joel did it first .. ; )

Re Depression, I hear this a LOT from kids with parents from this era (not mine though, no hidden money) Some are Italian, some Jewish, but I heard from kids who grew up in relative poverty and found stashes of money hidden under drawers, bankbooks they knew nothing about, 20,000 life insurance policy's never spoken of. One daughter said she found 5,000 in a tin in the pantry. She said it was like a scavenger hunt and she still wonders if she missed something.

When I moved into my home, an old colonial owned by an older Jewish couple, we years later, found about 100 in a jar under work bench screwed to the top and some old coins (haven't had those looked at) I happened to crawl under to get something.  I sometimes wonder if there is more.  lol

Edited December 12, 2018 by debraran