S01.E07: Part 7

[Irlandesa]

On 12/31/2018 at 5:32 AM, CynicalGirl said:

.And of course we only have Sweat's version of events, but I do think he was the brains of the operation. On both the inside and outside. 

 

During her interview with Sweat, Lehey Scott mentioned that he did about 20 miles with Matt but did 18 without him.  If that's the case, even if what happened in the woods isn't entirely accurate, it's pretty clear that Matt was an albatross. 

9 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I bet the Emmys are going to come down to a battle between this show and Dirty John, assuming they'll be in a separate category from regular dramas.

They will be but they'll be in the same category as other anthology or mini-series like Sharp Objects (people keep forgetting this one--maybe because it aired in July but it'll be up for next year's Emmy Awards) and the new season of True Detective which looks more promising than season 2.

[Armchair Critic]

9 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

This is the NY IG's report: https://ig.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdfs/DOCCS Clinton Report FINAL_1.pdf 

Wow, that really goes into detail. Interesting.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

They will be but they'll be in the same category as other anthology or mini-series like Sharp Objects (people keep forgetting this one--maybe because it aired in July but it'll be up for next year's Emmy Awards) and the new season of True Detective which looks more promising than season 2.

That's interesting. You'd think mini-series based on actual events would be in a separate category. They're almost like documentaries but with some added dramatic license. Shows like True Detective are pure fiction though there may be elements inspired by real life events and people.

[tennisgurl]

This was a seriously wild ride, you might as well have titled it "Truth is Stranger than Fiction!" the mini series. Its the kind of tawdry crime drama that seems made up, except it all really happened. I mean, depending on who you ask I guess (and by who, I mean Tilly) and some things were certainly changed or streamlined to make it a more cohesive story, as are many shows based on a true story, but its still all pretty amazing how all this went down. The acting was amazing (give Patricia all the Emmy's), the production was top notch, and I really felt immersed in this story and this place. It was just super fascinating all throughout.

I do wish we had seen more of the process of Tilly being interrogated, prosecuted, and sent to jail, because oh my GOD I wanted to see her get hers. At least we saw Matt and Sweat getting caught, I wanted to see her sweat more! Like, have the cops find her bathing suite and Mexico books or something. She really is a vile person, and her constantly acting like she did nothing wrong, is just nails on a chalkboard. I can kind of get her son sticking with her (plenty of people of complicated feelings about parents and want to give them the benefit of the doubt) but Lyle standing by her is just sad. Lyle was just so in love with her, and didnt seem like a very bright guy, that he was an easy target for her to manipulate. Not that he was an innocent victim here (she did cheat on his wife with her, and he is standing by a woman who did really awful things) but there is something pitiable about a person that has apparently given their whole self to a person who did not give much of a crap about them. 

I also would have been fine watching Bonnie Hunt just walking about being super competent and only barley rolling her eyes at this prison and what a mess it clearly was, and handling business. Her expressions, like when the prison guard Matt was friends with was saying how women shouldn't have relationships like that with prisoners, but when he did it, it wasn't as bad. "So when you do it, its alright?" And I liked Michael Imperiolli in his brief part as the Governor as well, who also seemed to be walking about like "oh come on!" as he sees how lazy this prison has gotten. I mean, its just an amazing cast all throughout, both the main parts and the minor roles. 

I do think that Sweat got the most sympathetic treatment of the three main characters, to an extent anyway. They dont ignore what he did, or that he was a dangerous criminal, but it did seem like he could have been rehabilitated, and was a young guy messed up on drugs who committed a terrible crime while in a panic or in the heat of the moment, unlike Matt or Tilly, or were both more cold blooded and calculating in their evil deeds. I think that Matt really was a serious drain on their escape, both just because of general strength (Matt was pushing 50 and seemed to have lived a pretty hard life, while Sweat was in his 30s and in decent shape) and his personality. We saw in the flashback that, while Matt can be charismatic and manipulative, he is also kind of an idiot, especially when he drinks. I can imagine Matt getting caught no matter what, after he broke into someones house to steal cheap booze or something, while Sweat maybe could have laid low. It really is a bit sad, how both men had some real skills that could have been translated to being successful people, especially Sweat, who really did/does have some real engineering skills, just his life when off the rails at some point. Not that it excuses what he did, but its does make me a bit sad at the waste. 

All the awards to Ben Stiller!

[EtheltoTillie]

The IG report is riveting. 

[Medicine Crow]

14 minutes ago, GussieK said:

The IG report is riveting. 

Where can I find it?  TIA!!

[Quilt Fairy]

2 minutes ago, Medicine Crow said:

Where can I find it?  TIA!!

https://ig.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdfs/DOCCS Clinton Report FINAL_1.pdf

[Blissfool]

Sweat has a certain, shall I say, charisma. Tilly pined for him, Ben Stiller found him affable, and many of us sympathized and even rooted for him. 

I wonder if this makes him a "better" person than other cop-killers or an even more dangerous criminal because of his ability to garner sympathy

[Milburn Stone]

6 hours ago, Blissfool said:

Sweat has a certain, shall I say, charisma. Tilly pined for him, Ben Stiller found him affable, and many of us sympathized and even rooted for him. 

I wonder if this makes him a "better" person than other cop-killers or an even more dangerous criminal because of his ability to garner sympathy

Good point. I would add that the IG (at least as portrayed, and possibly in real life) seemed quite taken with the humanity he displayed toward Matt. That's either because the facts justified that interpretation on her part, or because the way he presented himself induced that state of sympathy in her--or perhaps a bit of both.

[CynicalGirl]

^ She also seemed quite taken with the skills he exhibited in planning and executing the breakout. It took a lot of work and thought. And dedication. Matt's contribution was little more than his bullshit abilities, to get Sweat the tools he needed. 

[Janc]

I don't know why they thought getting to Canada would make them home free, the story was huge here in Eastern Canada too. They'd have been recognized and probably caught at the border anyway, and extradited.  Interesting how the show changed Tilly's son's (and ex-husband's) name.

[Chaos Theory]

it is possible to be impressed and horrified at the same time.  I think the RL people were genuinely  impressed with the amount of skill it took to escape but still horrified that two dangerous killers managed to do it.  At the same time Catherine Scott was also impressed At Sweats level of outdoorsmanship which Matt lacked.   It doesn’t matters if you believe the soft edit or not there are certain things personality wise I can believe.  Matt probably was obsessed with Tilly to the extent that without Sweat he would have doubled back to kill her and probably gotten caught  or killed a lot sooner.    

Without Matt I am not sure how far Sweat would have gotten that is an interesting question.  Matt would never have survived long on the outside.   He would have gotten arrested eventually either in the US Mexico or Canada.

Given a second chance I am not sure about Sweat.   

Edited January 3, 2019 by Chaos Theory
Generally and genuinely are not the same thing

[Milburn Stone]

48 minutes ago, Janc said:

I don't know why they thought getting to Canada would make them home free, the story was huge here in Eastern Canada too. They'd have been recognized and probably caught at the border anyway, and extradited.  Interesting how the show changed Tilly's son's (and ex-husband's) name.

I wondered this, too. Even if they weren't nabbed at the border, how long would it have been before they were nabbed inside Canada? Did they honestly believe they could assume new identities?

But then I remembered that Canada wasn't in the plan at all. They wanted Mexico, where (I've learned from movies and TV) they could have started new lives. Canada was a necessary improvisation, and probably a lot preferable to hiding in NYS.

[roughing it]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Good point. I would add that the IG (at least as portrayed, and possibly in real life) seemed quite taken with the humanity he displayed toward Matt. That's either because the facts justified that interpretation on her part, or because the way he presented himself induced that state of sympathy in her--or perhaps a bit of both.

From the little we got to see of the interrogation, perhaps the IG was playing "good cop", in order to get Sweat to talk. 

[Chaos Theory]

Maybe It looks like Sweat got the soft edit because Matt comes off like a sociopath, Tilly like a narcissist but Sweat is just a career criminal.

Then again all of that may be true.  If you read into all of the RL events.  Matt does come off like a sociopath, Tilly like a narcissist and Sweat like a career criminal.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[lezlers]

4 hours ago, roughing it said:

From the little we got to see of the interrogation, perhaps the IG was playing "good cop", in order to get Sweat to talk. 

I listened to an interview with her on the True Crime podcast and she was genuinely impressed, as I believe any person would be.   What he did was impressive.   As someone stated upthread, it's possible to be both horrified and impressed at the same time.

I think Sweat would have remained under the radar for quite some time if he didn't have the human albatross Matt weighing him down.  I think he undoubtedly would've made it to Canada.   They travelled 20 miles in 21 days together and Sweat travelled 18 miles in 2 days alone.   That says everything you need to know.  I think Sweat's crimes were more dumb kid probably hopped up on drugs derived.  He was 35 when he got caught and did 12 years in prison without so much as an infraction for bad behavior as opposed to Matt, who I believe was a genuine psychopath who committed crimes just to commit crimes.   I think that Sweat genuinely did not want to go back to prison and would've found some way to stay on the straight and narrow well under the radar for many years had be been alone.  Does that mean he should have?  Of course not.  But I think he would have, had Matt not been there.

[Thisgirllovespasta]

I thought the entire series was amazing. Thank you for posting the investigation .doc. When I first watched the real interview with Tilly, I kind of felt a little sorry for her but that went out as soon as I read the NYS findings.

Does anyone know what they were sprinkling in the woods? It looks like it was something to maybe cover their scent?

They weren't too concerned about wiping away finger prints from any thing they touched.

When Sweat told Matt to make it look like a branch hit through the bathroom window... I couldn't help but think, your fingerprints are every where!

anyone else think they should have put flatulence sounds after Matt drank the tainted water? When I first saw him walking in the woods and he was walking a little funny, I thought he was soiling himself... 

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, Thisgirllovespasta said:

Does anyone know what they were sprinkling in the woods? It looks like it was something to maybe cover their scent?

Black pepper, for that exact reason.  Pepper spray also does the trick to cover tracks.  

[Thisgirllovespasta]

Just now, Drogo said:

Black pepper, for that exact reason.  Pepper spray also does the trick to cover tracks.  

Thank you!!! I had no idea!!!

[Drogo]

I'd be interested to know if this happened in real life: in the show, Sweat ditches the pistol as soon as he ditches Matt.  (Implying he never had any intention of shooting anyone but Matt.)

While noble to not want to shoot any civilians or law enforcement, it kind of shoots a few holes (pun intended) in his undying loyalty story.  And for such a proudly over-organized planner, he had to have known a handgun would come in handy down the road (for example, if a lone trooper spotted and attempted to apprehend him just a few miles from the border.) 

[roughing it]

4 hours ago, Drogo said:

Black pepper, for that exact reason.  Pepper spray also does the trick to cover tracks.

I'm in the process of reading the IG's report (thanks to QuiltFairy's link above).  It is fascinating, and I'm not getting much work done because of it.  Anyway, it was stated in the report that Tillie brought in over 70 tins of black pepper and cayenne pepper and gave them to Matt in the Tailor Room.

[Drogo]

Just now, roughing it said:

Tillie brought in over 70 tins of black pepper and cayenne pepper

How... but... how do you even... SMH

• Axe
• Shovel
• Zip ties
• Lime pellets
• Latex gloves

Call me craycray, but if you have the above cart at Home Depot or 70 tins of black pepper at Pricewhacker you should be immediately apprehended and taken in for questioning.

[Quilt Fairy]

There's a slight inconsistency between the report and the show about the pepper.  The show clearly shows Sweat sprinkling red powder ( probably the cayenne) at least twice.  However, the IGs report says that Matt and Swear disposed of all the pepper they had accumulated because Matt's cell was "searched"  - I think the quotes are appropriate here - about 3 or 4 days before the escape.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I bet Tillie avoided suspicion by shopping at Walmart at 3 a.m. , when the serial killers are shopping, so they all have the same cart of stuff.   However, they should have been suspicious when she didn't buy big garbage bags, and a lot of duct tape too.       And I bet she used her warehouse store discount to get the Cayenne, and other pepper, and it was to ruin the dog's scent tracking.     

Edited January 7, 2019 by CrazyInAlabama

[PrincessPurrsALot]

19 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I bet Tillie avoided suspicion by shopping at Walmart at 3 a.m. , when the serial killers are shopping, so they all have the same cart.     And I bet she used her warehouse store discount to get the Cayenne, and other pepper, and it was to ruin the dog's scent tracking.     

Her cart would blend in and she could meet potential partners.  She is resourceful that way.

[Drogo]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 3:45 AM, Quilt Fairy said:

There's a slight inconsistency between the report and the show about the pepper.  The show clearly shows Sweat sprinkling red powder ( probably the cayenne) at least twice.  However, the IGs report says that Matt and Swear disposed of all the pepper they had accumulated because Matt's cell was "searched" 

They did steal a bunch of shit from that first hunting cabin. 

[smartymarty]

On 1/4/2019 at 11:08 AM, Drogo said:

Sweat ditches the pistol as soon as he ditches Matt

I thought it fell out of his waistband while he ran.

[Chaos Theory]

On 1/4/2019 at 3:22 PM, Drogo said:

How... but... how do you even... SMH

• Axe
• Shovel
• Zip ties
• Lime pellets
• Latex gloves

Call me craycray, but if you have the above cart at Home Depot or 70 tins of black pepper at Pricewhacker you should be immediately apprehended and taken in for questioning.

Well if you live near  the woods that all is legitimate outdoor woodsman gear.  I mean you cloudless but all that stuff and day your going on a long camping trip or buying a trailer in the woods for vay cay. 

[Cheezwiz]

On 12/30/2018 at 9:04 PM, Chaos Theory said:

The truly tragic thing out of all this though is that Matt had talent as an artist

Agreed - I kept thinking that if these two had not been amoral psychopaths, they could have forged completely different paths in life: Sweat as an engineer, Matt as an artist or illustrator. Tilly, on the other hand, was hopeless.

[Umbelina]

On 1/1/2019 at 7:04 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

This is the NY IG's report: https://ig.ny.gov/sites/default/files/pdfs/DOCCS Clinton Report FINAL_1.pdf 

I'm not even half-way through (it's 154 pages!) but it's in clear English, it doesn't read like a legal or government document.   As with most "inspired by a true story" shows, some events in the timeline are condensed, altered, or simplified, but nothing that materially affects the story.  The sole exception is Tilly and Sweat having intercourse, which both of them deny. 

Dang, it says "link not found" but there is a link to a search there.  Was the title "The Clinton Report?" 

I'll have to search later...but if you have a different link?  That would be great @Quilt Fairy, or anyone else who has it.

[itsadryheat]

https://ig.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2019/07/DOCCS Clinton Report Final 6.6.16 with 7.23.19 Typo Correction.pdf

[Calamity Jane]

I read a book about this whole thing, written by a retired corrections officer. He says Joyce was trained more than once about keeping a professional relationship with the inmates. She continually flouted the rules, but she responded so ferociously when corrected that the admin became reluctant to take her on, needing to build an airtight case because she was so resistant. It took away my last shred of sympathy for her. She’s as much a sociopath as the two men, and all her “But I didn’t really do anything awful” just doesn’t ring true to me. 

This author also maintained that the state had cut the budget for many prison issues, including the required inspections of the tunnels. So they had to do them but there was no budget for it. He reallllly hates Cuomo, so I took it with a little grain of salt, but he had facts and figures for the prison cutbacks. It seems the new warden was already making strides but got caught up in the flood of events after the escape.