Season 18: Jack McCoy, D.A.

[ApathyMonger]

I watched a few episodes of S18 recently. It's interesting to see some of the changes made with René Balcer in charge, like getting rid of the opening "body-finding" scenes. They seem to do more of the Criminal Intent-style tricks to turn accomplices against each other too.

 

I don't miss Branch, but having McCoy still around (and much more involved in episodes than previous DAs) makes it harder for Cutter to carve out a place for himself as EADA, at least early on.

[radishcake]

Season 18: Episode List

 

1 Called Home 2008-01-02
2 Darkness 2008-01-02
3 Misbegotten 2008-01-09
4 Bottomless 2008-01-16
5 Driven 2008-01-23
6 Political Animal 2008-01-30
7 Quit Claim 2008-02-06
8 Illegal 2008-02-13
9 Executioner 2008-02-20
10 Tango 2008-02-27
11 Betrayal 2008-03-05
12 Submission 2008-03-12
13 Angelgrove 2008-03-19
14 Burn Card 2008-04-23
15 Bogeyman 2008-04-30
16 Strike 2008-05-07
17 Personae Non Grata 2008-05-14
18 Excalibur 2008-05-21

[FormerMod-a1]

I'm watching Bogeyman right now.  This is the one with "Systematics" and the paranoia about it having people placed throughout all government and industry.  They also get babies killed with "cleansing" routines.  I don't know that I love the plot overall, but I do like how Cutter wins (assuming I'm remembering correctly since I haven't seen this in some time).  

 

The Cutter/Rubirosa and Lupo/Bernard years are when I started watching religiously again.  For a while there I'd watch if I was around, but didn't care if I missed it.  But L&O really seemed to find it's footing again, and get good again, and then was cancelled (boo).  Granted, that spanned into later seasons.  

[augmentedfourth]

The Cutter/Rubirosa and Lupo/Bernard years are when I started watching religiously again.  For a while there I'd watch if I was around, but didn't care if I missed it.  But L&O really seemed to find it's footing again, and get good again, and then was cancelled (boo).  Granted, that spanned into later seasons.

 

Same here. The Dennis Farina years barely existed for me, and I'd watch here and there (mostly when I remembered it was on and wasn't doing anything else) when Detective Beauty Queen came on board. But I started watching regularly again at the same point as you and really enjoyed the new characters and roles.

[Princess Sparkle]

Lupo/Bernard is actually my favorite detective pairing throughout the years. I thought Jeremy Sisto and Anthony Anderson had great chemistry together, and I was surprised at how good AA was at a serious role.

And you know, for as much as I disliked McCoy as an ADA, I liked him as DA, because in an effort to keep voters happy, he didn't have as much righteous indignation.

[radishcake]

Lupo/Bernard got me back watching after Farina made me meh on the series. Not that I haven't watched every episode but man was I sad that they cancelled it when they did. It was like they had just gotten their groove back.

[wanderingstar]

Of the later seasons, S18 was probably my favorite. I liked Jack as D.A. and I enjoyed the brief partnership of Green and Lupo.

[DXD526]

Saw "Red Ball" the other night, the first episode of S16, which ends with Foghorn Leghorn telling Jack he'll never be a D.A. Jack, of course, replaces him a couple of seasons later. 

[wanderingstar]

I am watching "Challenged" now on TNT, and I just realized that Michael Rispoli - who I'm used to seeing in mob/tough-guy roles - is the actor playing the mentally disabled man who was sent away by his family. He does a good job in the role. 

[Chaos Theory]

I just watched "Driven"  I thought it was really good.  I liked the ending.   Basically what starts as a simply altercation over a basketball turns deadly when a white woman drives her kids with baseball bats to a black neighborhood to get the ball back and a black boys father grabs a gun and begins shooting.  Both parents are brought up on charges and both parents blame the other.     

Edited January 10, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[txhorns79]

I just saw Bogeyman, and it was fine, right up until what I thought was quite a bizarre ending.  I'm trying to imagine how the guy was going to allocute in court that he wasn't unduly influenced or pressured to take the deal, when it was entirely based on Cutter scaring him into submission by pretending to be an agent of the fake-Scientology cult. 

[Spartan Girl]

Both of the parents in "Driven" got exactly what they deserved.  I do love happy endings.

[wanderingstar]

Submission was also on this past weekend. I always liked that episode. Cutter is just a lot of fun in that one. And Connie got a fair amount of snark in as well. 

 

I also liked "Darkness," which features a nice guest star turn from Tom McCarthy; and "Bottomless," the famous SavingsMart episode. Ron Canada was great in that one as Van Buren's friend and former mentor. 

 

Season 18 really did have some gems.

[Spartan Girl]

I loved the moment in "Darkness" when the victim's daughter called him out on not telling the truth just to save his own ass and using the fact that he'd be sent to jail as an excuse.  "If you won't tell the truth, I don't want to live with you anyway."  *applause*

[wanderingstar]

I loved the moment in "Darkness" when the victim's daughter called him out on not telling the truth just to save his own ass and using the fact that he'd be sent to jail as an excuse.  "If you won't tell the truth, I don't want to live with you anyway."  *applause*

 

 

That's a great moment in the episode, and the actress really sells it.

 

I watched Ed Green's farewell episode, "Burn Card," last weekend as well. I'd forgotten how good it was. From Lupo's travails with his dog, Otto to Green telling Van Buren about his gambling addiction, there were just some nice moments between the characters - especially for longtime fans.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Gillian Rosh

[WendyCR72]

I'm an unabashed Ed Green fangirl. I think he was Lennie's best partner. Part of me wonders if my belief that Martin and Orbach had a natural bond as theatre men that it transcended their characters, and so I read more into their camaraderie than there is but... there it is.

 

 I really liked Green and Briscoe but I still must give a slight edge to Briscoe and Logan. I can't help it!

[txhorns79]

Part of me wonders if my belief that Martin and Orbach had a natural bond as theatre men that it transcended their characters, and so I read more into their camaraderie than there is but... there it is.

 

I think they had a nice chemistry that worked very well.  It probably looks even better in hindsight given the meh-ness of Fontana and the general awfulness of Detective Beauty Queen. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I loved the moment in "Darkness" when the victim's daughter called him out on not telling the truth just to save his own ass and using the fact that he'd be sent to jail as an excuse.  "If you won't tell the truth, I don't want to live with you anyway."  *applause*

 

        Solid episode. 

 

        The scene with Jeremy Sisto and his RL ex-wife Marisa Ryan was quite odd.

 Part of me wonders if my belief that Martin and Orbach had a natural bond as theatre men that it transcended their characters, and so I read more into their camaraderie than there is but... there it is.

 

        I think so.  I recall reading that Jessie cried like a baby at his funeral.  

[FozzyBear]

I'm re-watching S18 right now and JS does some fantastic work as Lupo. I love they way he looks uncomfortable in his own skin for the longest time. It makes sense, he was out of the country doing undercover work and comes home to deal with his brothers death. He has all these moments where it looks like he's trying to remember how he should act. It slowly falls away, which would be natural, and is really great to watch. S18 is when the show started to come back for me.

Edited January 24, 2015 by FozzyBear

[Maherjunkie]

How do you think he compares with Goren?

[WendyCR72]

How do you think he compares with Goren?

 

Obviously not @FozzyBear, but I don't see any real comparisons with Lupo/Goren save for the military angle and dead brother. And Goren, by the time CI premiered, had long been out of the service, whereas Lupo was trying to re-acclimate and find his way.

[Maherjunkie]

I'm not Fozzy Bear!  I meant in a brooding, mysterious, tall way.  

[WendyCR72]

I'm not Fozzy Bear!  I meant in a brooding, mysterious, tall way.  

 

Maybe I should have written "I'm obviously not Fozzybear", because that is what I meant.  :-P

[FozzyBear]

Uh, I never compared Lupo to Goren. I know some have and I sort of see why, but I think they are very different characters and that JS and VDO approached them in really different ways. I was speaking more to the way JS portrayed somebody slowly interesting back into his old life. I think with VDO and Goren it was more a case of somebody who never really fit in to begin with.

[friendperidot]

My love for Sam Waterston knows no bounds, have loved him for a zillion years. Just watched Asterisk from season 13. He is brilliant, there is a scene near the end where Serena tells him off & storms out of the room. He gives her this very brief look, rather mocking, I've given that look to people who were higher up the food chain at work when I've been chewed out for something that I felt was unfair, it's that kind of "neyh, neyh, neyh, neyh" look. 

[friendperidot]

It's been a while, but my tv watching situation has changed, no Directv anymore, trying to get by with antenna and Netflix. Just watched an episode where tabloids were making a big deal that Jack McCoy had not spoken to his daughter in several years. At the end, he was sent pictures that had been taken in Maine of his daughter. Does anyone know why they were estranged? Or is it never talked about again?

[WendyCR72]

Wait, Jack McCoy had a daughter?! I only remembered him as the lady-loving, bachelor type!

[GHScorpiosRule]

It's been a while, but my tv watching situation has changed, no Directv anymore, trying to get by with antenna and Netflix. Just watched an episode where tabloids were making a big deal that Jack McCoy had not spoken to his daughter in several years. At the end, he was sent pictures that had been taken in Maine of his daughter. Does anyone know why they were estranged? Or is it never talked about again?

 

No, the show never addressed why they were estranged, but she did show up at the end of one episode. I can't recall which season or episode. Just that Jack looked up and there was this young girl at his door, he smiled this huge happy smile, said her name, and she responded with "Hi Dad." and the episode ended.

Wait, Jack McCoy had a daughter?! I only remembered him as the lady-loving, bachelor type!

 

 

Yes, he did. Clearly you weren't paying attention to the latter years! Bad Wendy! No more Criminal Intent for you for a week!

[Maherjunkie]

He made a reference to her having a baby and no longer being pro-choice.

[WendyCR72]

Yes, he did. Clearly you weren't paying attention to the latter years! Bad Wendy! No more Criminal Intent for you for a week!

 

LOL! Well, if McCoy didn't want to remember her or reference her much, why should I remember, huh? Huh?  :-P

[Arcadiasw]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2015 at 11:19 PM, friendperidot said:

It's been a while, but my tv watching situation has changed, no Directv anymore, trying to get by with antenna and Netflix. Just watched an episode where tabloids were making a big deal that Jack McCoy had not spoken to his daughter in several years. At the end, he was sent pictures that had been taken in Maine of his daughter. Does anyone know why they were estranged? Or is it never talked about again?

I always assumed Jack's work and the fall out of his marriage was the reason he was estranged from his daughter. If Lennie couldn't have a happy ending with his daughter at least Jack did. In the last seasons, it was implied he was in his daughter's life again from visiting her when he was in California and the mention of his grandchild.

[roseslg]

And him shopping at the Walmart knockoff to get a bike for his grandkid

[wknt3]

5 hours ago, roseslg said:

And him shopping at the Walmart knockoff to get a bike for his grandkid

IIRC the bike actually for his nephew's (niece's?) daughter.

[topanga]

Sometimes I love Jack McCoy, and other times I hate him because his passion for the law seems misguided. 

I recently watched two episodes that made me want to throw something at my TV screen: "Family Friend," where a home invader stabs a man to death and nearly stabs the man's wife to death. The murderer was eventually acquitted because the prosecution couldn't conclusively tie him to the home invasion or the murder (I forget why). A family friend also happens to be a retired police officer, and he ends up killing the murderer (was it self-defense? a revenge hit?). 

Anyway, McCoy pursued the retired police officer with more passion and efficiency than he did the original home invader/murderer. McCoy also eventually found some Mafia-related dirt on the wife and the murdered home owner, and he essentially blackmailed the wife into testifying against the police officer friend. And she still went to prison! After almost being murdered.   I'm not saying the wife or the family friend were innocent of their crimes, but if McCoy had prosecuted the original case a little better, maybe things wouldn't have come to this. 

Another episode: "Kids" where a 14-year old boy is accidentally shot and killed by another teenager. The teenaged shooter had been aiming for a gun dealer who'd threatened to kill him, but he missed and shot the 14-year-old.  McCoy focused all of his efforts on prosecuting the teenaged shooter after mishandling the case against the gun dealer, who'd sold the teenager his gun in the first place. Oh, and the gun dealer previously shot and paralyzed another teenager for witnessing the gun dealer do something illegal (I'm fuzzy on the details).  

Eventually someone shot and killed the gun dealer (we are to assume that police officers killed him), so justice was served, I guess. But McCoy's passion for prosecuting the teenaged shooter-- who did commit murder (manslaughter at the very least)-- seemed oddly misplaced. 

[fastiller]

TNT is airing S18 this AM. One of my favourite line-ups.

The episode Darkness is on right now. Great episode, I think.

[mattie0808]

I was watching "Misbegotten" over the weekend, and while I know I've seen it before, I really was having one hell of time following it this time around. I sought a recap, and I'm still not sure I've gotten it entirely. So...the victim's brother-in-law was trying to kill the doctor/researcher who claimed to have found a "gay gene." Was he also trying to kill his sister-in-law? If he wasn't trying to kill her, wasn't he surely risking killing her by bombing a building where she worked as a security guard and delivered packages to the offices? *And* she was one of gay-gene-doctors subjects, so must have often had appointments in that office? So there were a couple of ways him sending that bomb (which was supposed to set off a much larger explosion than wound up happening) could have easily killed her?

At the end, the victim's father was going to alibi his daughter's killer (well, she wasn't dead but only had a minuscule chance of recovery) and let him go unpunished, when he hated the guy before any bombs were planted, so that his son-in-law would agree to abort his grandchild and only connection left to his comatose daughter, because the baby might have the gay gene if such a thing exists? So the bomber's father, brother, and brother's father-in-law were all truly so anti-gay that it's better to commit attempted murder, THAT TOOK OUT THEIR DAUGHTER-IN-LAW/WIFE/DAUGHTER, than to maybe have a potentially gay kid in the family? Were we supposed to believe the victim was of the same mindset and was likely to have had an abortion anyway, or why was she participating in this doctor's study and wanting to do comparisons between her fetus and her gay brother-in-law? And didn't anyone hear the part where no reputable scientists believed the gene existed, much less that it had been found?

Maybe it's just me, I found it all very confusing this time. And boy, was the victim's colleague a Grade-A jackass for the two seconds we saw him. Was he really laughing at a pregnant woman who was carrying boxes around while he sat there?

[wanderingstar]

Quote

The episode Darkness is on right now. Great episode, I think.

I love everything about that episode, but I particularly adore the little chase scene that happens in Act II, when Green, Lupo, et. al are trying to track down one of the kidnappers. The show didn't really do a lot of extended chase scenes, so it was cool to see.

[Xeliou66]

I saw Called Home, the first episode of season 18, today, and as I’ve said before the show got fresh life this season with the shift of Jack to the DA role and the additions of Cutter and Lupo. It was a shake up the show needed, and it worked well - Cutter’s introduction was very smooth and I liked how he already knew the others and didn’t need to introduce himself to them and he worked well with Jack and Connie right off the bat, and Jack’s transition to the DA role was also smooth. And while I usually disliked heavy personal stories for a main character, the stuff with Lupo’s brother actually worked well, it was a good way to get Lupo onto the show and establish a background for him and I liked how Van Buren knew Lupo from the time before he was overseas, Van Buren and Lupo always had a very good relationship. These changes really helped the show and the writing improved as well in season 18 as compared to the previous couple of seasons. 

[TotalDrama]

On 5/26/2014 at 10:19 AM, ApathyMonger said:

I watched a few episodes of S18 recently. It's interesting to see some of the changes made with René Balcer in charge, like getting rid of the opening "body-finding" scenes. They seem to do more of the Criminal Intent-style tricks to turn accomplices against each other too.

I don't miss Branch, but having McCoy still around (and much more involved in episodes than previous DAs) makes it harder for Cutter to carve out a place for himself as EADA, at least early on.

It was time for a change. At that point, the show was on for seventeen years and was losing two cast members that year (Fred Thompson and Milena Govich). I like they showcased the last moments of the victims before we see them dead without going full CI and showing the whole ordeal play out sinisterly for the sake of keeping its own originality. My gripe was Jesse L. Martin choosing to leave. They finally update this man's opening credit picture and he leaves. Speaking of which, why wasn't S. Epatha's updated? She had the same one since Season 9 and she did not look the same by then. She could have used an update too. With certain actors, (Jerry and Sam) they just didn't bother to change theirs for 10+ years for whatever reason. As far as Jack getting more screentime, yeah I caught a Season 19 episode and was surprised how involved Jack was with one of the cases, particularly with one of the defendants I think that he apparently knew which I guess was their way of giving him more involvement here. But it makes sense in a way since we saw this man play center stage for a dozen years as the show's leading ADA and I guess the makers didn't want to diminish that even when promoting him, so they still wanted him to be heavily involved. It was different with the other DAs because we didn't start off seeing them as regular ADAs. Like if we were to have Season 18 feature Ed Green as Van Buren's replacement, we'd be seeing much more of him too since he's a long-running familiar character who we followed as a detective. It's certainly like that on SVU with Olivia Benson as the lead character even though she's captain, but her being one of the lead main characters as a detective for many seasons warranted her still having more screentime than when we saw Cragen in that spot. And this surely plays a factor if the actor isn't requesting less screentime so the writers will keep them heavily involved. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by TotalDrama

[TotalDrama]

I'm watching some Season 18 episodes and notice they DID in fact change S. Epatha Merkerson's opening credit pic initially, which wasn't changed since Season 9. That was surprising as I know her Season 9 pic was kept through to the very end of the show. It's the same updated pic I saw on a fan-made opening someone made years back on YouTube and I figured the YouTuber had made the change (as one was needed), but now I see the change was actually made on the show. However, it didn't last very long as it was swapped back to the Season 9-17 one by the fourth episode. That's freaking pathetic. Why did they change it back to the old one? -_-

Jesse L. Martin should have gotten an update in Season 17 when they promoted him to senior detective. It made sense to do it then as opposed to the very season he's about to leave in and not even last the entire duration. They were best just leaving his old pic up by that point, haha. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by TotalDrama

[GHScorpiosRule]

How’d I miss this? The return of René Balcer! Technically, he came back at the tail end of season 17, but WAHOO!!!

And it’s Dr. Thomas Wayne Linus Roache as Executive D.A. Mike Cutter! YUM.

I said it over on TWoP when this season aired and I’ll say it again: Jack turned into a politician/thought like one too soon. Then again this wasn’t a serialized drama where we could see him stop thinking like the prosecutor and like the District Attorney.

ETA: on a shallow note, I hate that Rodgers went blonde. I loved her as a redhead!

Edited February 2, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[GHScorpiosRule]

This is really weird. 

We know, come the final season, what will happen with Van Buren. But she stopped wearing her wedding ring this season. Or it might have been last season. Sorry, but my eyes latch on to stuff like that. And I doubt the show runner(s) plan that far ahead.

So I checked S. Epatha Merkerson's IMDb, and she got divorced in 2006, which was during season 17. Now I'm wondering if the wedding rings she wore were her real rings. See, in Bollywood, the actors and actresses who are married, well, okay, I can think of only two, but they wore their wedding rings, even when their characters weren't married. Or married to the love interests yet. One is my NUMERO UNO FAVORITE actor (Amitabh Bachchan), and the other was one of my favorite actresses (Hema Malini).

So that made me wonder, all of a sudden, if Merkerson's rings were her own. Yeah, I'm weird.

On to this season.

I'm really, really, and I mean REALLY not liking the heavy-handed right in my face political angle. Yes, when Schiff was DA, there were scenes of dialogue how his constituency needed him to do A or B, but it wasn't partisan.  I really disliked the in your face dialogue in "Illegal" for instance. And "Quit Claim" was so, so, utterly ridiculous. Wait, I take that back. Of course every MAN (except for Mike and Jack, thank goodness) were taken in by Kim or whatever her real name was. Even the jury. UGH.

What Mike did to Connie in "Tango" was not a good look for him. Or Jack's line about having to "use what we have", especially after what happened with the jury foreperson in "Hubris."

Next up is "Betrayal" which had so many of us on TWoP, posting "Mike and Liz so DID IT!" when it aired and Elizabeth testified how she had a relationship with a police detective who had lost his partner in the line of fire. And I still wish Logan could have appeared to pop Jack one for betraying Elizabeth's confidence. Yeah, there were a lot of Mike and Elizabeth shippers over there.

But I also can't stand the same damn "ominous" and depressing music this show plays that is the EXACT SAME MUSIC used in Criminal Intent. This show IS NOT CRIMINAL INTENT. It doesn't need all those Criminal Intent plot devices and music that was used in the last few seasons.

[Xeliou66]

As I’ve said before, regarding Betrayal, I thought Jack was completely right to betray Olivet’s confidence - Olivet went to bat for a woman who murdered her husband in a jealous rage and was using a phony defense to try to get a light sentence, and Jack was right to tell Cutter about her relationship with the detective, Olivet’s testimony deserved to be impeached and she came across as a massive hypocrite. Putting the woman away for murder was more important than sparing Olivet’s feelings. I was 100% on Jack’s side and I thought Olivet looked terrible, I like Olivet but there were times when she annoyed me and came across as holier than thou, Skoda will always be my favorite of the psych experts. 

[Halting Hex]

I think there are other ways to impeach Olivet's testimony than dragging her sex life into it. I mean, if you're going to go there, why not just bring up that time she was raped and suggest she's being influenced by that (as Stone basically does in "Points of View")?  I don't know offhand, but I'm sure she's been fooled by a slick defendant or two in the past.  Surely that would be more on point about her professional credibility than whether she banged Mike Logan?

(Personally, if I were Liz and Cutter brought that up, I'd be tempted to just say "Have you seen Mike Logan?".  But that's just me…)

And I never liked Skoda, who IMO jumps to conclusions too quickly, lacks empathy, and gets it wrong sometimes, too.  My differentiation between the two is crystallized in 10.02 "Kidz", where Skoda's all "the little girl's a psycho, don't even try to rehabilitate her" and Liz points out that Emil doesn't treat children and basically implies he's an idiot, and then it turns out that girl had what was basically a renunciation defense (thinking the battery in the mouth could resuscitate the victim) and does get a more appropriate result.  But JMO.

(I also think the defendant in "Betrayal" did a darn good job of representing herself, and Cutter only wins because it turns out that the whole case hinges on a ludicrous coincidence.  [If the town in question had been named "Little Falls" or whatever, the crime would never have occurred.  For the record, I've never lived in any city that could be mistaken for a woman's name.  No "I killed him because I thought 'Binghamton' was his girlfriend! How could I have known?"])

Trivia that I don't know where else to put:  the cast we have by season's end (Sisto/Anderson/Merkerson/Roache/de la Garza/Waterston) sets the record for most episodes unchanged.  Never before had a sextet gone more than two seasons intact.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Halting Hex

[Xeliou66]

I guess I’m just going to have to completely disagree with you - I thought Jack was 100% right in telling Cutter about Olivet sleeping with a patient, since it completely discredited her testimony, Olivet was all on her high horse about how terrible it was for a shrink to sleep with a patient and how it had such terrible consequences, and then lo and behold it turned out she had done the same thing, made her out to be a huge hypocrite. She was going to bat for a woman who murdered her husband and was using a phony defense, and I thought it was 100% the right call for Jack to betray her confidence.

 

[Halting Hex]

Fair enough.  I just don't see an equivalence between an emotionally-fragile 14-year-old (whom Waxman was in his 30s while treating) and Mike Logan, whom Liz only dated after she stopped being his therapist.

And even if you want to go "she did the same thing!", how does that mean Liz can't condemn Waxman's behavior?  What, we're not allowed to recognize when others are making the same ethical mistakes we did?  Are you saying Jack can't stop Abbie's "screw the law!" plans in "Agony" (9.05) just because she points out that he hid an exculpatory witness in "Under the Influence" (8.12)?  To quote (or possibly misquote) Jack, "Yes, I did it.  And I was wrong to do so."

Personally, I don't care how many (ex-)patients Liz laid.  She can still call a guy who sleeps with a 14-year-old patient a predator.  Waxman's gooey "I love Katherine so much" tapes (in which he does talk about possibly having her committed) aside.  Just as she was right to call out Dr. Diane Mead (Maggie Walsh) in Season 3's "Promises to Keep".

In fact, how was Katherine using "a phony defense", exactly?  She was going for justification, based on the facts as she reasonably believed them to be.  She did know that Waxman had preyed on her when she was young and vulnerable, she did know that he sometimes spoke of having her committed (regardless of how he claimed it would "break his heart" to do so) and she reasonably thought he was doing it to another young girl.

Now the jury's within their rights to think she was more motivated by jealousy than by idealistic "I must stop this evil man" thoughts, and her earlier attempts to cover up the crime and manipulate her daughter's testimony certainly didn't help.  And it's certainly embarrassing that Katherine was wrong about the whole "Meredith" issue.  But I don't see how that's germane to the legal point about why she did what she did.  And yes, with Jack's help, Cutter was able to smear Liz…but that really doesn't make Liz's testimony any less true, IMO.

Indeed, at the end there's still a chance that the jury would think this was Extreme Emotional Distress, which is presumably why Cutter cuts the deal rather than let the case go to verdict.  (I forget if manslaughter was included in the charges, or if it would have been a simple up-down on murder 2.). But I dispute the idea that it was Liz being "duped" into supporting a "phony" defense.

Again, just JMO.

(I'm pretty sure there's an early-season episode where Liz is completely bamboozled by somebody…I think a woman.  But this isn't that, as far as I can tell.)

Edited February 5, 2022 by Halting Hex

[Xeliou66]

As far as I’m concerned her defense was phony because I don’t think she saw her husband as an evil predator who needed to be stopped, she was just angry and jealous because she believed her husband was cheating on her. Waxman may have taken advantage of her but he didn’t deserve to be murdered and I do think Catherine Waxman loved her husband and I don’t think she was in an abusive relationship. So I think it was a simple case of a woman killing her husband in a jealous rage, and Olivet was on her sanctimonious high horse just because the victim had slept with his underage patient, and while I agree that Olivet sleeping with a detective isn’t the same thing, she was still a massive hypocrite for her testimony about how terrible it was for a shrink and patient to sleep together under any circumstances, and then it turns out she was guilty of it. Jack was right to tell Cutter so he could discredit her, Olivet was so distracted by the moral issue that she was supporting a phony defense. That’s just my take on the episode.

[Spartan Girl]

“Angelgrove”: fuck that jury for acquitting that pastor for basically goading that kid into kill his mom. Another episode that proves that so-called religious people wouldn’t know true spirituality if it bit them on the ass. And that juror who had to “consult” his Bible?! Last time I checked, “love thy neighbor” and “tho shall not kill” was crystal clear!

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 2/4/2022 at 5:38 PM, Halting Hex said:

Trivia that I don't know where else to put:  the cast we have by season's end (Sisto/Anderson/Merkerson/Roache/de la Garza/Waterston) sets the record for most episodes unchanged.  Never before had a sextet gone more than two seasons intact.

Nope. Seasons 7 and 8 had Merkerson/Orbach/Bratt/Waterston/Lowell/Hill. As to your question about when Elizabeth was fooled, it was mentioned up thread that it was season three’s ”Point of View”. It was Lennie’s first appearance. 

@Xeliou66, We’ll just have to agree to disagree on whether Elizabeth violated ethics because she got involved with Mike after he completed his required sessions in the aftermath of Max’s murder, and not during. And there’s the fact she didn’t groom him; he wasn’t a minor, and she wasn’t manipulating him.

I just find it odd she would even confide this to Jack.

But at least we did get to see a reunion of sorts, with Elizabeth and Mike on Criminal Intent. I can’t remember if it was his final episode or not-but you could see that Elizabeth is now married and has children from the framed pictures.

I’m watching ”Betrayal” now, so will comment on what the defense was. Phoney to me is when say a mafia Don is faking being whackadoo crazy to get off from a guilty verdict or trial.

[Xeliou66]

I agree about Angelgrove, fuck that jury, I thought it was weird though that the judge didn’t declare a mistrial when it was revealed the juror consulted his Bible, jurors aren’t supposed to consult any outside sources, and there was no telling how many jurors had been influenced by that one guy bringing in his Bible, it was pretty clear the jury had been tainted, and the judge should’ve declared a mistrial.

12 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nope. Seasons 7 and 8 had Merkerson/Orbach/Bratt/Waterston/Lowell/Hill. As to your question about when Elizabeth was fooled, it was mentioned up thread that it was season three’s ”Point of View”. It was Lennie’s first appearance. 

@Xeliou66, We’ll just have to agree to disagree on whether Elizabeth violated ethics because she got involved with Mike after he completed his required sessions in the aftermath of Max’s murder, and not during. And there’s the fact she didn’t groom him; he wasn’t a minor, and she wasn’t manipulating him.

I just find it odd she would even confide this to Jack.

But at least we did get to see a reunion of sorts, with Elizabeth and Mike on Criminal Intent. I can’t remember if it was his final episode or not-but you could see that Elizabeth is now married and has children from the framed pictures.

I’m watching ”Betrayal” now, so will comment on what the defense was. Phoney to me is when say a mafia Don is faking being whackadoo crazy to get off from a guilty verdict or trial.

I don’t know if Olivet violated her ethics, but she did sleep with the patient while he was still her patient, that was revealed during her testimony, she said he stopped being her patient shortly after their sexual relationship began. I’m not saying the situation is the same as what went on in Betrayal, Olivet wasn’t manipulating him and she wasn’t sleeping with a minor, but Olivet still looked like a huge hypocrite after she said it was never okay for a shrink to sleep with a patient and that it could have catastrophic consequences, and then it turned out she had done the same thing. So I sided with Jack in that episode, Olivet’s testimony needed to be discredited.

It was nice to see Olivet on CI with Logan, it was in the CI Season 5 episode To The Bone, after Logan had shot the undercover officer. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Xeliou66