S11.E03: Rosa

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

A totally shallow observation here. I was upset, at first, when the new Doctor was revealed to be a woman, because then I wouldn't have a yummy British man to watch having adventures in all of space and time. I frankly never wanted to BE the Doctor, I just wanted to travel with him. But I am finding that Graham is giving me all I need in that category, thank you very much. Bradley Walsh is wonderful to watch, I enjoy every scene he is in. (I am a woman of a certain age, ahem.) 

Serious observation:  I'm enjoying this cast very much.  This particular episode, though, seemed, well, like a VERY IMPORTANT EPISODE, although it was well done. I wish the motivation of the BAD GUY was made more clear other than racists exist throughout all of space and time. That seemed like a missed opportunity there.  Also, he was incarcerated for some event, but we didn't get the specifics. Maybe we weren't meant to.  It just seemed very nebulous to me.  And, as others have said, I too, was a bit surprised that the Doctor wasn't upset with Ryan for using the weapon on the bad guy.  Maybe that will be addressed in a later episode. 

Like you part of Doctor Who has been crushing on the Doctor (not the classic ones so much with the exception of Pertwee and Davison). I want to travel with him too!!! Not be him. I really found myself like Capaldi quite a bit as he is nearest my age and he was so cute in Vicar of Dibley. 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

5 hours ago, marceline said:

Yeah, I'm kind of sorry I watched this. I couldn't stand Ryan running all over Montgomery doing a million different things that could have gotten him lynched. It almost made me angry to see how none of them really seemed to grasp the amount of danger they were in. I come to Doctor Who for escapism and this gave me the exact opposite. I know the show meant well but this didn't work for me. 

I see what you're saying, this episode didn't grab me either. Reminded me too much of a Timeless type episode. Later that night, BBCAmerica showed the Doctor Who episode The Bell's of st. John with Matt Smith ''s Doctor and Clara. Well written, fun and enjoyable. Made me realize how much I miss those two.   

[taanja]

20 hours ago, babs j. said:

I don't know if you've ever seen the news photo of Rosa Parks being booked but it packs a punch.  She may come up to the shoulder of the policeman booking her but no more - this physically short slender woman with a large man behind her.

I concur! A very powerful image indeed.

[Eulipian 5k]

Race is always a difficult subject, especially for whites, these days, and segregation is a difficult subject for people of color to watch and live. That's just the nature of our world, and Dr Who poses that this will continue for centuries. It's interesting that Bill was in less danger in her first trip to 19th century London than Ryan was in 20th century US. Notice, no one dares talk about "anvillicious" or heavy handed when presented with just about every marriage on Dr Who being same sex or inter-species, far more than the occurrence of either in the general population. It seems that "taboo" will be accepted long before racism ends up on the scrap heap. Racism will fall probably two weeks after  the "Silence will fall".

[QuantumMechanic]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Notice, no one dares talk about "anvillicious" or heavy handed when presented with just about every marriage on Dr Who being same sex or inter-species, far more than the occurrence of either in the general population.

That's not anvilicious.  Neither would having having lots of marriages be same-sex or whatever (assuming you don't have some character commenting on it over and over, especially with a bunch of And As You Know, Bob stuff).

What makes things anvilicious is stuff like crappy or forced on-the-nose dialog, forced actions, having characters do idiotic things so the writers Can Make Their Special Point (like taking two non-whites, one of whom is black, into a bar that has impossible-to-miss "Whites only" signs all over the outside so that you can set up some Meaningful Moment about what a horrible thing segregation is), and other similar things.

In contrast, the scene where Ryan picks up the handkerchief and grabs the guy to give it back to him and gets slapped and threatened is not anvilicious (and is in fact quite good) because it's a natural action by Ryan and a natural action by people of that time and place.

Edited October 23, 2018 by QuantumMechanic

[Eulipian 5k]

So the characters should avoid going into a bar or pub when Graham had dialog saying he was very hungry. The scene of Ryan in a whites only bar isn't just forced to write a Special Scene; it was a routine description of life in the US. I've heard hundreds of stories where musicians followed the band into a whites only establishment ignoring the signs incredulously. Every black musician who toured the south in those days has commented on it; I guess they should have known their place and saved us these "uncomfortable" confrontations.

Every word and euphemism would be hurled at a scene that showed the ease at which so many embraced this bigotry. I didn't need  Dr Who to learn about this, but why would a show about the whole universe avoid this subject so crucial to life these past centuries? We'll be back to the cat people and headless monks next week.

[ae2]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I've heard hundreds of stories where musicians followed the band into a whites only establishment ignoring the signs incredulously. Every black musician who toured the south in those days has commented on it; I guess they should have known their place and saved us these "uncomfortable" confrontations.

Source? That seems like a crazy specific thing for there to be hundreds of stories about it. I'd like to read them.

[elle]

4 hours ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

I see what you're saying, this episode didn't grab me either. Reminded me too much of a Timeless type episode. Later that night, BBCAmerica showed the Doctor Who episode The Bell's of st. John with Matt Smith ''s Doctor and Clara. Well written, fun and enjoyable. Made me realize how much I miss those two.   

Before "The Bells of St. John", BBCA ran "The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe".  It seemed like the end credits of the episode"Rosa" had barely finished when we jumped right into the big spaceship exploding over the Earth and the antics of Eleven.  It was a jarring transition to say the least.

[owenthurman]

20 minutes ago, ae2 said:

Source? That seems like a crazy specific thing for there to be hundreds of stories about it. I'd like to read them.

I'm not the person who made that statement, but anyone who has read the biographies of jazz and blues musicians from a certain time period has come across lots of stories like those.

Or like Billie Holiday's dad dying because the whites-only hospital wouldn't admit him... And, later, how the director of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics ordered her -- ordered her -- to stop performing her song "Strange Fruit," about racism, and when she refused, he had her framed for buying heroin, and she spent 18 months in prison... and then he used the false conviction as a pretext to remove her cabaret performing license... all because she refused to follow a white man's orders to stop singing a song saying racism exists and is bad. (His name was Harry Anslinger.)

These are just some of the first ones to pop into my head, because I read her biography fairly recently, but there is a long history of racist persecution of Black musicians in the US.

Edited October 23, 2018 by owenthurman

[QuantumMechanic]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

So the characters should avoid going into a bar or pub when Graham had dialog saying he was very hungry. The scene of Ryan in a whites only bar isn't just forced to write a Special Scene; it was a routine description of life in the US.

After Ryan was assaulted and basically had his life threatened when they first showed up, after Rosa Parks told them about Emmett Till and warned them to leave or be very, very careful, after the cop confronting the crew in the hotel room, and the other similar things they went through before that scene -- it was idiocy.  

Edited October 23, 2018 by QuantumMechanic

[Eulipian 5k]

49 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

After Ryan was assaulted and basically had his life threatened when they first showed up, after Rosa Parks told them about Emmett Till and warned them to leave or be very, very careful, after the cop confronting the crew in the hotel room, and the other similar things they went through before that scene -- it was idiocy.  

We saw how they entered the hotel; imagine what they had to do to get any food. I imagine the writers spared us the "uncomfortable" and "anvilicious" drudgery of watching them find anywhere to get a glass of water or all the other places they turned away from because of the signs. Ryan is Grace's progeny, he would start a riot with his 20th century mind.

To the other point: There were millions of black people in the south since the the slave trade began; if you really need me to tell anyone where to find hundreds of stories about life for a black human being in the Jim Crow south, ask a social studies teacher, or read any biography or autobiography of every black entertainer who toured thru the South. If that's hard to believe Congratulations! You've been privileged to ignore much of human history all around you.

[owenthurman]

19 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Ryan is Grace's progeny, he would start a riot with his 20th century mind.

Did you mean 21st? Not sure I'm interpreting you right. The rest of your post is spot-on.

[starri]

3 hours ago, ae2 said:

Source? That seems like a crazy specific thing for there to be hundreds of stories about it. I'd like to read them.

Hattie McDaniel wasn't allowed to attend the premiere of Gone with the Wind because it was held at a whites-only theater in Atlanta.  Even in Hollywood, she accepted her Oscar in a segregated theater, and that took David Selznick calling in a favor to allow her even to attend.

Anyway, about the episode:

...I cried.  And I really wish Grace could have been there.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, owenthurman said:

I'm not the person who made that statement, but anyone who has read the biographies of jazz and blues musicians from a certain time period has come across lots of stories like those.

And Quincy Jones when he was running the band for Sinatra in Las Vegas. "Hundreds" of stories is probably undershooting it. 

It's a little much that Ryan was running around, but it was at night.  I honestly thought the woman dropped the glove on purpose. 

It did bother me slightly that they didn't show that Parks' stand (uh sit) was kind of planned. I thought when Ryan visited her and King at the house they would have brought up something like "we need to do this on the 1st because if we screw it up we won't get another chance for months and people will forget." Or, I could buy "we need to do this sooner than later," and maybe with the three of them there, and Graham looking like he wanted to melt into the floor she knew this was the day.

It looked to me like she was looking at Ryan at the end like she knew exactly what she was doing, so I'll take it. 

I think it might miss the point of the episode to say that even if she didn't get arrested the civil rights movement would have happened. They were making the point that seemingly small acts end up making a big impact. Maybe this isn't the particular event to try to underscore that, but I like the message. 

I thought they could have been much more emphatic on portraying what life was like back then, but looking at it as a kids' show, I think it's enough that kids got the point. 

Cast-wise, I thought everyone was able to contribute. I like that they haven't forgotten Nan, and I like the running gag of 'just ask a bus driver'. I also liked his crack that they seem to not have enough time to stop and eat a lot. 

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, owenthurman said:

Did you mean 21st? Not sure I'm interpreting you right.

Time Lord aging. Thanks to Nan, he's older on the inside.

[elle]

I want to thank everyone for their posts about this episode.  I have learned about the history of the show as well as the history of the time this episode explored.

On 10/21/2018 at 7:36 PM, cardigirl said:

Someone last week was worried this episode would feel like a Timeless episode, and I think it did. I did like parts of it. I was hoping we were going to recognize the guy from the storm cage’s name, and was disappointed that he wasn’t a link back to previous Doctor Who history. 

I liked that Graham and Ryan brought Grace back into the narrative. 

I was one who expressed that concern.   It did not help that as has been pointed out the villain of the week seemed to come out of the "Rittenhouse" casting office.  I know this is not the only show dealing with time travel, it is just the one that first sprang to mind.

The funny thing is  I completely forgot that the show was on!  I was wrapped up in a project.  When I went to check the late news for the forecast, I suddenly remember what night it was.  Still missed the beginning, but caught enough to have some thoughts.

On 10/21/2018 at 7:25 PM, meatball77 said:

I loved this.  I don't know that I've been that moved by a history episode since the doctor took Van Gogh to see his work.  They did well.  I didn't feel like I was being preached at.  I was worried they were going to have the doctor create the moment, to take it away from Rosa but they didn't and I thought them having to sit and be there while the moment happened was a nice touch and they didn't make it about them at all.

While I did not enjoy the episode as much as you did, your comment sums up how I felt about the episode overall.  No preachy speeches, no Doctor making the moment, and that ending, watching poor Graham be the one to trigger the move of the seating placard and the looks on the others' faces...

I did think that they missed an opportunity to explore how different it is for the Doctor to be a woman.  During the scene in the hotel where the cop is harassing them, I thought that he would not have been dealing with the Doctor, a woman, but with Graham.  He probably would not have even acknowledge her or if he did would have commented to Graham about keeping "his woman" in line.  Back in the early 70s, my mom had the experience of having a car salesman completely dismiss her as my parents were buying a car.  He only addressed my dad.  When she did ask a question, he would not respond to it until after my dad repeated it.  If he asked a question and my mom answered, he would not respond.  They did not buy a car there.

Over in the shallow end of the pool, I found myself wondering about Ryan addressing Martin Luther King, Jr. without saying Jr.  He repeated "Martin Luther King" so many times I expected the actor to say that's my father's name, I'm Martin Luther King, Junior.  A minor quibble but it really took me out of that scene.

On 10/21/2018 at 9:37 PM, QuantumMechanic said:

Huh. I never knew there was an episode of Quantum Leap where Sam jumped into an eccentric British woman in Montgomery, AL in 1955.

Not nearly as good as other QL episodes on similar subjects. Though at least it wasn’t as anvilicious as ST:TOS’s “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”.

 

Still liking Jodie and Graham, though.

Ha, that would have been a lot better than a lot of latter QL episodes.  The mind boggles!  I would love to see the other half of that premise where the Doctor gets transported back into Sam's body in the future.

ST:TOS never shied away from the use of anvils!  And I would argue that the last scene of "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” with the two characters running through their desolate home world as one of the striking images of that series.

[owenthurman]

5 minutes ago, eliot90000 said:

the Jim Crow South!  Do they not still teach this stuff in history class?

I suspect it's only taught in history classes north of the Mason-Dixon.

[ae2]

10 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

To the other point: There were millions of black people in the south since the the slave trade began; if you really need me to tell anyone where to find hundreds of stories about life for a black human being in the Jim Crow south, ask a social studies teacher, or read any biography or autobiography of every black entertainer who toured thru the South. If that's hard to believe Congratulations! You've been privileged to ignore much of human history all around you.

That's not what was stated or what was asked. And you're making a whole lot of assumptions about someone you don't know.

You said, "I've heard hundreds of stories where musicians followed the band into a whites only establishment ignoring the signs incredulously. Every black musician who toured the south in those days has commented on it; I guess they should have known their place and saved us these "uncomfortable" confrontations."

I simply asked for some of these hundreds of stories about musicians following their bands into white only establishments. I didn't ask about the general life of a "black human being in the Jim Crow south." 

You made a claim, I asked for a source. Simple as that. No need to get hostile and attack someone for wanting you to back up what you say with facts.

[cardigirl]

7 hours ago, owenthurman said:

I suspect it's only taught in history classes north of the Mason-Dixon.

My husband was raised in the south and he often said he witnessed some of the worst racism he ever saw in the north. 

It's interesting to me when a British show, written by British writers, instructs the audience on United States history, but, whatever.  I'm reminded of River Song's line in The Impossible Astronaut about "They're Americans" when she's afraid the Doctor will get shot. (All Americans must love guns, I guess.) 

I'm sure the conversation behind the dumpster that Ryan and Yaz had was to let the audience know that Britain still has a way to go with race issues and that having no redeeming southern whites portrayed was not to be indicative that the United States was alone in its racial issues. 

[Eulipian 5k]

3 hours ago, ae2 said:

You made a claim, I asked for a source. Simple as that. No need to get hostile and attack someone for wanting you to back up what you say with facts.

No animosity intended! here's the first search entry:

"The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow. Jim Crow Stories | PBS - Thirteen https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories.html there were: About 3,630,000 results (0.54 seconds) 

I was incredulous that anyone, and many ones, think it was a choice to be confronted by the police, hotel owners, restaurant owners, or that people (musicians) would not tell about what happened to them at the hands of the government/society.  I don't know you, but I know my history. Pay attention in high school History/Social Studies!

[Llywela]

22 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

It's interesting to me when a British show, written by British writers, instructs the audience on United States history, but, whatever. 

Bear in mind that the primary audience of this show are British families, most of whom probably won't know a huge amount about Rosa Parks, because, unsurprisingly, American history doesn't play a large role in the history syllabus in British schools. I know the majority of people on this forum are American, but nonetheless, this episode was not designed to instruct an American audience on US history that is presumably taught in American schools, it was designed to introduce a particular aspect of US history to a British audience that may not know very much about it. I mean, speaking personally as a 40-something Brit, I'd heard of Rosa Parks and was vaguely aware of the broad outline of her story, but no more than that, so the content of this episode gave me a much greater understanding of what happened - which this discussion has since broadened further still. And that's what this show was originally designed to do, the so-called 'educational aspect' that Chibnall has said he is keen to draw back into the show. So yes, this was a British show, written by British writers, attempting to instruct a British audience on an aspect of United States history many of them would be unfamiliar with - just as elements of certain 1960s episodes were designed to introduce their young audience to various historical events that they may not have previously known about, providing an interesting setting for a new adventure along the way. What's wrong with that, as long as it is carefully researched and respectfully presented? 

[cardigirl]

1 minute ago, Llywela said:

Bear in mind that the primary audience of this show are British families, most of whom probably won't know a huge amount about Rosa Parks, because, unsurprisingly, American history doesn't play a large role in the history syllabus in British schools. I know the majority of people on this forum are American, but nonetheless, this episode was not designed to instruct an American audience on US history that is presumably taught in American schools, it was designed to introduce a particular aspect of US history to a British audience that may not know very much about it. I mean, speaking personally as a 40-something Brit, I'd heard of Rosa Parks and was vaguely aware of the broad outline of her story, but no more than that, so the content of this episode gave me a much greater understanding of what happened - which this discussion has since broadened further still. And that's what this show was originally designed to do, the so-called 'educational aspect' that Chibnall has said he is keen to draw back into the show. So yes, this was a British show, written by British writers, attempting to instruct a British audience on an aspect of United States history many of them would be unfamiliar with - just as elements of certain 1960s episodes were designed to introduce their young audience to various historical events that they may not have previously known about, providing an interesting setting for a new adventure along the way. What's wrong with that, as long as it is carefully researched and respectfully presented? 

Well, nothing is wrong, per se, except that the show is pretty popular with Americans too.  :)  And it may have 'teetered' a little on some stereotypes just a smidge. But you are right, perhaps he is writing primarily for a British audience, who may not be all that familiar with who Rosa was. 

[owenthurman]

13 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

if you really need me to tell anyone where to find hundreds of stories about life for a black human being in the Jim Crow south, ask a social studies teacher

 

8 hours ago, owenthurman said:

I suspect it's only taught in history classes north of the Mason-Dixon.

 

39 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

My husband was raised in the south and he often said he witnessed some of the worst racism he ever saw in the north.

This is a non-sequitur. I'm not making the argument right now whether south or north is more racist.

"the [official Texas] guidelines for the [public school history] books downplay some issues — like slavery — and skirt others — like Jim Crow laws."

Southern schools are lying to children about our history. The state of Texas mandated rules to teach that "States' rights were the real issues behind the Civil War. Slavery was an after issue." It's a flat-out lie.

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2015/07/13/421744763/how-textbooks-can-teach-different-versions-of-history

Most Secessionists supported the Dred Scott decision -- which took away the rights of northern states to outlaw slavery within their own borders. Quite literally, the leaders of the southern states opposed states' rights when the federal government forced states to allow slavery. The Secessionists only started to support states' rights when the federal government started talking about freeing slaves. The Civil War was about slavery. Yet in Texas, history books aren't allowed to tell the truth.

That article is only about Texas, but the anti-truth movement is an ideology throughout the education systems in a number of southern states. And no, the other side doesn't do it too.

 

23 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I know my history. Pay attention in high school History/Social Studies!

Only if those history classes are north of the Mason-Dixon.

[festivus]

The accents were horrible but as a southerner I'm used to that. The only thing I was worried about with this episode was that they'd have the Doctor playing some part in what Rosa did but that didn't happen. Instead we get the Doctor and companions having to be on the bus and not being able to do anything and Graham having to be the white passenger that Rosa wouldn't stand for. I understand this is more like the old Doctor Who where the Doctor would be present for historical things but not have a direct effect on them. I haven't seen much of the old show but I like this turn. The Doctor can't fix everything and I like the less angsty tone so far. (Having enjoyed it before but by the time we got to 12 and Clara it just became too tiring for me)

The villain I didn't quite understand, but I think this was probably not the only time we'll see him.

[Enigma X]

I really liked this episode, except for not understanding whether the racist was an earthling from the future. I know I may be hung up on this, but I cringe at the thought that black (or any nonwhite) person has to do endure racism from their fellow humans but also someone from Mars, Gallifrey, or whatever also hates specifically black people too and not just all humans. 

I get I may be the only one focusing on this and that it may be frivolous.

[Llywela]

26 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Well, nothing is wrong, per se, except that the show is pretty popular with Americans too.  :)  And it may have 'teetered' a little on some stereotypes just a smidge. But you are right, perhaps he is writing primarily for a British audience, who may not be all that familiar with who Rosa was. 

I don't think there is a 'perhaps' about it. However popular any given show might be in other countries, it is produced first and foremost for the home market, it has to be. And Doctor Who is a British show, produced by the BBC, which is funded by British TV licenses, for a British audience. I think it is sometimes easy for us to forget, as fans of shows made in other countries, that we are not actually the primary target audience of those shows. It is something I regularly encounter when watching US shows, in which Brits are often portrayed in highly stereotypical ways as stuffy, pompous (often villainous) gits, or when there are pop culture references that go clean over my head - however much I enjoy those shows, however much they are marketed to the international audience, they aren't actually made for that international audience, they are made for the home audience. I don't get the references, or am mildly annoyed by the stereotyping because, although I am a fan of that show, it wasn't made for me. So it is here: this episode of Doctor Who was not created to teach Americans about their own history, but to introduce the home audience to a piece of modern history they are unlikely to be familiar with - and as an opportunity to see the Doctor and her companions branching our beyond our own shores!

I mean, I get what you mean - I've seen American shows that made episodes set in the UK, or which attempted to tackle British history or some aspect of British culture, American actors attempting British accents, and it always feels wrong, like, valiant attempt but no cigar. So, this is just that in reverse!

[cardigirl]

7 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I don't think there is a 'perhaps' about it. However popular any given show might be in other countries, it is produced first and foremost for the home market, it has to be. And Doctor Who is a British show, produced by the BBC, which is funded by British TV licenses, for a British audience. I think it is sometimes easy for us to forget, as fans of shows made in other countries, that we are not actually the primary target audience of those shows. It is something I regularly encounter when watching US shows, in which Brits are often portrayed in highly stereotypical ways as stuffy, pompous (often villainous) gits, or when there are pop culture references that go clean over my head - however much I enjoy those shows, however much they are marketed to the international audience, they aren't actually made for that international audience, they are made for the home audience. I don't get the references, or am mildly annoyed by the stereotyping because, although I am a fan of that show, it wasn't made for me. So it is here: this episode of Doctor Who was not created to teach Americans about their own history, but to introduce the home audience to a piece of modern history they are unlikely to be familiar with - and as an opportunity to see the Doctor and her companions branching our beyond our own shores!

I mean, I get what you mean - I've seen American shows that made episodes set in the UK, or which attempted to tackle British history or some aspect of British culture, American actors attempting British accents, and it always feels wrong, like, valiant attempt but no cigar. So, this is just that in reverse!

LOL, I love it!  :)  So many British actors on American television as well, that people (well, Americans) are shocked to hear their actual British accents when not in character.  (House, with Hugh Laurie comes to mind first.) But it's all good. The episode of The Crown where John and Jackie Kennedy come to visit drove many American viewers mad but I liked it. But I am off topic. 

I rarely see Brits portrayed as bad guys. Must be watching the wrong shows.  :) 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, festivus said:

The accents were horrible but as a southerner I'm used to that.

It's kind of an occupational hazard. It didn't bother me, but I tool on actors trying to do a New England accent. If it's not egregiously taking me out of the episode, I can roll with it. 

[festivus]

28 minutes ago, ganesh said:

It's kind of an occupational hazard. It didn't bother me, but I tool on actors trying to do a New England accent. If it's not egregiously taking me out of the episode, I can roll with it. 

Yeah, me too. There are so many different types of southern accents and most actors just go for a broad one so it never sounds right but it doesn't bother me most of the time. Accents are a hard thing to get right if you didn't grow up speaking it.

[Eulipian 5k]

8 minutes ago, festivus said:

Yeah, me too. There are so many different types of southern accents and most actors just go for a broad one so it never sounds right but it doesn't bother me most of the time. Accents are a hard thing to get right if you didn't grow up speaking it.

The bestest example of this was Rose Tyler meeting the Queen's entourage with the Tenth. "No, don't do that"... "Definitely not that". I try to remind myself even Gallifrey has a North.

[Guest]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:58 PM, rab01 said:

Your point about this being planned and Rosa Parks being a determined volunteer is why I didn't like this episode.  Even if the future racist (neoest-nazi?) managed to prevent it on one day, she'd have made her stand pretty soon so this story made our characters too central to the narrative.  That was just a Very Special Episode that didn't do justice to the civil rights movement even while trying to showcase them. 

I did still like the scene setting and the characters' reactions to events.  It's much better than last season when Bill had to remind Capaldi's doctor that her color was a problem for her in older London but then it didn't really show up in other people's reactions to her.

I really expected this to be the point of the episode. They fail to get Rosa on the bus and return home defeated. They step out of the tardis to discover that nothing has changed because Rosa was arrested the next day or the next week or the next month. Even if it wasn’t a planned event the circumstances that happened that day were not unique. This was not a perfect storm of events but rather a daily occurrence that would have been repeated hundreds of times. 

 

Overall I am really loving this season which is such a relief since they show has been a steady decline for me. 

[Chaos Theory]

I think this was such a well done well acted episode that hit all the right notes....except one.  The dude from Stormcage.   Normally I would write him off as a nitpick but when you have such an amazingly great episode something that doesn’t fit is glaring.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Raingirlkm]

On 10/23/2018 at 8:52 AM, rab01 said:

On 10/23/2018 at 5:31 AM, Aussie Grrrl said:

I found it boring. Knowing full well they could just jump in the Tardis and travel back to yesterday if anything happened

That's not how Doctor Who works.  Wherever he goes it becomes very difficult for him to return to that exact time and place.  

Yup, you can't go back on your own timeline, well, except for cheap tricks, as Martha learned.

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

Did anyone else get a  Legends Of Tomorrow kind of vibe from this episode?

[starri]

45 minutes ago, One4Sorrow2TooBad said:

Did anyone else get a  Legends Of Tomorrow kind of vibe from this episode?

In the sense that it involved the characters being witness to a pivotal moment in history, yes.  Tonally, no.

[Llywela]

12 hours ago, Dani said:

I really expected this to be the point of the episode. They fail to get Rosa on the bus and return home defeated. They step out of the tardis to discover that nothing has changed because Rosa was arrested the next day or the next week or the next month. Even if it wasn’t a planned event the circumstances that happened that day were not unique. This was not a perfect storm of events but rather a daily occurrence that would have been repeated hundreds of times. 

It might have been a daily occurrence, but this particular event turned out to be a tipping point, a specific moment in history that all three companions and the Doctor were all aware of, they knew all the details - the date, the time, the names, etc. That moment in history might be small, it might be only one part of a much wider movement, but it is nonetheless a significant event in an established timeline that the three companions are all part of. The show has touched on this a number of times in the past, that changes to a known and established timeline are dangerous and can have unforeseen ripple effects (the 4th Doctor once took Sarah Jane back to the future mid-adventure to show her that the future she remembered was not set in stone and could be overwritten by a new timeline if they failed to stop the alien menace they'd encountered in the past; knowing the future she'd lived did not mean victory was inevitable). That is why the gang here had to make sure that the history they had learned happened as they had learned it, to prevent the future they were born into from unspooling in either major or minor ways. Kinda like what Terry Pratchett had to say about putting your foot down the wrong trouser leg of time - allow a known historical event to change, and you end up living in the wrong timeline.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

It might have been a daily occurrence, but this particular event turned out to be a tipping point, a specific moment in history that all three companions and the Doctor were all aware of, they knew all the details - the date, the time, the names, etc. That moment in history might be small, it might be only one part of a much wider movement, but it is nonetheless a significant event in an established timeline that the three companions are all part of. The show has touched on this a number of times in the past, that changes to a known and established timeline are dangerous and can have unforeseen ripple effects (the 4th Doctor once took Sarah Jane back to the future mid-adventure to show her that the future she remembered was not set in stone and could be overwritten by a new timeline if they failed to stop the alien menace they'd encountered in the past; knowing the future she'd lived did not mean victory was inevitable). That is why the gang here had to make sure that the history they had learned happened as they had learned it, to prevent the future they were born into from unspooling in either major or minor ways. Kinda like what Terry Pratchett had to say about putting your foot down the wrong trouser leg of time - allow a known historical event to change, and you end up living in the wrong timeline.

I prefer the way it played out because it irritates me when other time travel shows alter important historical events and then act as though it’s no big deal. Mostly I was focused on how poorly thought out the bad guys (did we find out his name?) plan was. Even if he had succeeded important things would have changed but it wouldn’t have given him the result he was looking for. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Guest

[Llywela]

2 minutes ago, Dani said:

I prefer the way it played out because it irritates when other time travel shows alter important historical events and then act as though it’s no big deal. Mostly I was focused on how poorly thought out the bad guys (did we find out his name?) plan was. Even if he had succeeded important things would have changed but it wouldn’t have given him the result he was looking for. 

I agree that his plan was poorly conceived and not well executed, but I actually don't mind that - he was just a racist murdering schmuck who got hold of a time travel device and decided to play games with it. Just because someone is evil doesn't mean they will also be good at what they do! I kinda like that his plan was so bad, because it kept the focus of the story off him and his racist ideals and made sure it stayed where it belonged: on Rosa and our gang.

[Daltrey]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:43 PM, justmehere said:

he looked so familiar. Looked him up: Josh Bowman from Revenge

Lol., I had to do the same thing!  I agree with most that it was very well done. There were a few moments that felt a little heavy handed or preachy, for lack of a better word, but I enjoyed it. That ending was quite powerful, emotionally. It didn't really feel like Doctor Who, but in a good way, if that makes any sense.... their minimal interference made it seem more like us watching them watching history unfold before their eyes...just a very different feel all the way around. What I found most impressive was the portrayals of racism from the featured townies, mainly the man who slapped Ryan, the cop at the motel and the bus driver; all were chillingly believable.

I don't believe I've posted on this show board before, so I'll offer some general thoughts, for what they're worth. I guess it's to be expected but the show in general doesn't completely feel like DW to me...yet. There have been glimpses but I think having two earth-centric episodes and a third that looked basically like it took place in the desert have hobbled its Who-ness a bit. That said, I think THE GHOST MONUMENT has been the best so far. I'm sure it will get there. Which brings us to JW. I really wasn't sure about her at first, mainly because she wasn't Peter/Matt/David/Christopher. I've struggled with each regeneration so far, only to end up loving each of them - even curmudgeonly old Peter ;) - for what they are, which is The Doctor. Jody has grown on me a bit, even in three episodes. There are definitely shades of both 10 and 11 in there and I can't wait to see how she develops. I fully expect to miss her just as much as the others once her time comes due.

[ganesh]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

Just because someone is evil doesn't mean they will also be good at what they do

Or that every bad guy has this huge intricate diabolical plan. I think the recent show has gone too far that way. 

He was just a racist jerk who learned something about something when he was in jail. 

[ElleryAnne]

I liked the episode.  But reading through this thread depressed the hell out of me.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, ElleryAnne said:

I liked the episode.  But reading through this thread depressed the hell out of me.

Delurking from the thread just to say that I think there's been some misunderstanding here. My impression was not that anyone was doubting that racism in the Jim Crow South was a very real, daily occurrence. I believe what the poster was questioning, specifically, was the idea that it was common for black people who knew that racism was very real and potentially deadly to flout the rules and enter "whites only"spaces. Someone noted that there were hundreds of stories of black musicians doing just that; I have no reason to doubt that assertion, but neither would I have taken for granted that this was regularly happening, and I was raised in the Northern US where we certainly were taught about Jim Crow. 

If black musicians were routinely trying to get into segregated clubs, that would still be a really different situation from the one confronting Ryan and Yaz, as I would imagine that there might have been some clubs who were willing to look the other way if a couple of members of a band were black even if they wouldn't have been willing to serve a black customer. Even today, plenty of racists enjoy black entertainers. 

I do think that Team Tardis would realistically have been too acutely aware of the racial climate to have gone to that restaurant without considering that it might be segregated. It would have been one thing if they had deliberately decided to ignore the sign, but as it is, it played like they really had just sat down to a meal and hadn't counted on being interrupted. But ultimately, I thought the episode wound up being powerful enough that I'm willing to overlook a couple of missteps. I was pleased with myself for - unusually, for me -- realizing before it happened that it was going to end with the Doctor and Graham being the white people who forced Rosa to give up her seat, but it was still a great scene.

[The Companion]

On 10/23/2018 at 11:55 PM, elle said:

I did think that they missed an opportunity to explore how different it is for the Doctor to be a woman.  During the scene in the hotel where the cop is harassing them, I thought that he would not have been dealing with the Doctor, a woman, but with Graham.  He probably would not have even acknowledge her or if he did would have commented to Graham about keeping "his woman" in line.  Back in the early 70s, my mom had the experience of having a car salesman completely dismiss her as my parents were buying a car.  He only addressed my dad.  When she did ask a question, he would not respond to it until after my dad repeated it.  If he asked a question and my mom answered, he would not respond.  They did not buy a car there.

 

I wish I could say that I didn't have the same experience looking at a car in like 2011, but that would be a lie. This jerk of a car salesman asked my husband if he was buying a car for the "little lady" and spoke almost exclusively to him about car features. He did not make the sale. 

On 10/24/2018 at 12:04 PM, festivus said:

Yeah, me too. There are so many different types of southern accents and most actors just go for a broad one so it never sounds right but it doesn't bother me most of the time. Accents are a hard thing to get right if you didn't grow up speaking it.

These were notably bad. It wasn't just that the accents sounded wrong, they didn't sound like any Southern accent ever. I have learned to largely ignore it (though bad Louisiana/cajunish accents still make me a little stabby) but I always give major props when an accent is good. This was not one of those times. The episode was good enough to overlook it. 

[Kromm]

The actual story of Rosa Parks is actually far more complicated than most people know. Rosa was indeed an activist, but her situation on the bus was allegedly planned by the movement. There had been an earlier incident with a woman named Claudette Colvin, but the Civil Rights movement supposedly wanted to bolster their planned legal and P.R. campaigns by involving more of a pillar of the community than Colvin, who was just a local unknown teenager.  Colvin was denied any place in history for decades because she had a child out of wedlock, with a married man, and also because even before that they felt Parks was a better representative, a better public hero to claim. 

Here's more about Colvin: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/02/27/389563788/before-rosa-parks-a-teenager-defied-segregation-on-an-alabama-bus?t=1540489309571

None of this should ruin your enjoyment of this story, I believe, but it's worth noting that history is rarely portrayed accurately and it's more the sense of what was accomplished in Montgomery that matters than the details. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Kromm

[Kromm]

42 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Delurking from the thread just to say that I think there's been some misunderstanding here. My impression was not that anyone was doubting that racism in the Jim Crow South was a very real, daily occurrence. I believe what the poster was questioning, specifically, was the idea that it was common for black people who knew that racism was very real and potentially deadly to flout the rules and enter "whites only"spaces.

Then that person doesn't read much actual history, because the Civil Rights movement was often about deliberately challenging those laws and rules.  And even though this story is actually massively historically inaccurate (in large part because like any organization, the Civil Right movement promoted the story that worked best for their goals), one thing it did make clear was that Rosa was part of that movement.  The story underneath is that allegedly her actions that day were planned, at the very least in a general way that she was simply waiting for a day when she was on a full bus and asked to move (it could have been any day from her perspective) and I talk more about that in a previous post.  None of which argues the necessity and rightness of what they did.  It's just in retrospect, this many years later, we can probably take the (pun intended) Rose-colored glasses off and see history for what it was.  It was brave action, but not by a lone unsupported individual but by a movement. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Kromm

[Eulipian 5k]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

If black musicians were routinely trying to get into segregated clubs,

This episode is clever in how it brings out the differences in its audiences. Growing up in a British colony I remember the idea that "one should know their place". That sh#t doesn't fly for a red-blooded American,,,life, liberty, right to assemble, all that jazz. The hundreds of stories include those told by musicians (big bands) who were hired to perform; but couldn't go in the front door, or eat, or even pee in the same establishment.

You'll notice the civil rights movement and independence movements happened worldwide in the decades after the second World War.  Many blacks from all over saw one another fighting to preserve freedom for their tormentors. Returning soldiers, like Grace,  started many a riot, thank goodness, that pushed these movements forward.

This is not required knowledge for the average Whovian, but our minds are bigger on the inside so it wouldn't hurt to know. The truth is out there.

[Occasional Hope]

"These were notably bad. It wasn't just that the accents sounded wrong, they didn't sound like any Southern accent ever. I have learned to largely ignore it (though bad Louisiana/cajunish accents still make me a little stabby) but I always give major props when an accent is good. This was not one of those times. The episode was good enough to overlook it. "

 

I think actors often genuinely believe they are better at accents than they actually are.  There have been some horrendous attempts at British accents by Americans (and some excellent, convincing ones too).  (The worst I remember was Anthony LaPaglia as Daphne's brother on Frasier; I still shudder at the memory.)  Dialogue can also be an issue even if the actor is playing their own nation, if the writer is from somewhere else.

[Hannah Lee]

On 10/21/2018 at 10:25 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Most if not all time travel shows get involved in major history at one point of another.  Quantum Leap did it alot.  I remember the show even had Sam “leap” into the body of Lee Harvey Oswald.  Doctor Who has gone back in time to Pompeii on volcano day.   There are probably more but it’s late and I am tired.  Anyway I thought it was a really good episode that ever with a really great moment.  

 

Yes, and Krasko made me think of Quantum Leap a few times, I got a very "evil leaper" vibe from him.  (which made me hope he was just a one-time character...because the evil leapers kind were a little too much on QL)

[Hannah Lee]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:04 PM, festivus said:

Yeah, me too. There are so many different types of southern accents and most actors just go for a broad one so it never sounds right but it doesn't bother me most of the time. Accents are a hard thing to get right if you didn't grow up speaking it.

I'm in New England, and my suspicion is that a good number of actors who try to do a Boston accent are learning it by watching tv/films with characters with Boston accents, or clips of the Kennedys, and trying to mimic what they hear.  I suspect the same thing goes on with "southern accents" too.  Unless a production has hired a skilled dialect/accent coach, things can get very...messy.

 

If anyone I knew was ever trying to play a role with a particular accent, I'd suggest they spend some time watching videos of city council/school committee meetings from the area - listen and watch people who actually live in the area, with real genuine ways of speaking and presenting themselves.  It might not be as colorful and dramatic, but it wouldn't drag audiences out of the story. :)

Edited October 26, 2018 by Hannah Lee

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Kromm said:

Then that person doesn't read much actual history, because the Civil Rights movement was often about deliberately challenging those laws and rules. 

 

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

This is not required knowledge for the average Whovian, but our minds are bigger on the inside so it wouldn't hurt to know. The truth is out there.

Again, I think we're kind of talking past each other. I don't think anyone on this thread doesn't get that the CRM was about challenging these kinds rules, or that every black musician who played in the south would have confronted segregation. But the initial context for the reference to black musicians was evaluating a scene in which Ryan, Yaz, the Doctor and Graham don't seem to have been deliberately defying the "whites only" sign; rather, they go in and appear to be blindsided by the reactions they get. No one is saying they should have "known their place," but that they should have realized that there was going to be an issue. So in that sense, I don't think there were tons of musicians with parallel experiences, because the musicians who confronted and/or defied segregation would have known all too well what they were going to be dealing with. And after the handkerchief incident, it was, IMO, a slightly false note for none of the four to anticipate the problem, in the way that they did when sneaking into the hotel. Just like, on the other side of the spectrum, I felt it was a little unbelievable that Grace, would have known the name of the bus driver in the Rosa Parks case, especially given that she was British and not American.