Season 5 Chat

[tennisgurl]

I guess now we know why they had Devonte...so he can warm up microwave food! Devonte is still such an adorable little baby. 

Go Eustace! 

Brandon Routh! Awesome seeing him here, I guess he had some time off between Legends of Tomorrow episodes! I cant even decide my favorite part, jacks voicemail, or Dre just sitting their pouring endless sand out of his shoes. 

"I need to know about deserts, you know I am gonna wanna bury something there some day."

[Traveller519]

That Pops and Junior pairing was really good! I do enjoy when they let oops be a little more wise with his family. It's like watching "Furious, the Golden Years." Of course, I always love his comedic hits too. Nice to see Junior with Siem confidence too.

I can't believe that Superman's detailed rundown of the trip didn't include a "We'll be out of cell range... But that's part of the plan"

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Dre's sudden terror at his kids being out of his range of supervision just made me roll my eyes. There are a good 8 hours a day when he doesn't have eyes on them and he was fine with that. Anything could happen to them while they're at school or at after school activities or hanging out at their friends' houses, but it just never occurred to him. And no overnight trips until they're 16? Have Jack and Diane never spent the night at a friend's house? Do kids not have slumber parties and sleepovers anymore? Those were a staple of my elementary and middle school years.

[xander874]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Dre's sudden terror at his kids being out of his range of supervision just made me roll my eyes.

To me, this seems a bit late in the game for this episode. He's gone through 2 kids already so this FEAR should not be new. I understand he has it with all kids but they seem too old for this to be such an issue. This episode should've been a couple of years ago.

I didn't mind this episode, even if Dre was pulling his man-baby shenanigans. At least it was grounded in love for his kids and not his stupid pride or reputation like usual. I liked Pops and Junior's storyline.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Using Charlie as an example of someone with a good job but no college degree was a smart move. 

[readster]

13 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Using Charlie as an example of someone with a good job but no college degree was a smart move. 

Completely agree and I actually like that they kicked Junior out. The problem is, I feel the writers either forgot or didn't care the real reason Junior dropped out of college was because he was scared of his roommate. Not the: "Why can't I just go with what I feel is right." Acting out of fear is being scared, learning to face your fear is courage. However, I thought they were going to make more ties in with Grown-ish with Zoey being there and her being cut off, but apparently not. 

  I would like to see Junior finding out that trying to strike out making just what he makes with only possible advancement in his dad's company is going to at least make him see he needs more education AND work experience to get anywhere in life. 

[Irlandesa]

13 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Using Charlie as an example of someone with a good job but no college degree was a smart move. 

But no way would Junior ever forget about a kid the way Charlie does. 

I do wish they would have offered Junior the idea of potentially doing an undergrad degree online while he works.  I don't think it's terrible that he wants to work at a good job since he wasn't feeling the college experience but if he ever wants to move on, he might need that degree. 

[readster]

5 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

But no way would Junior ever forget about a kid the way Charlie does. 

I do wish they would have offered Junior the idea of potentially doing an undergrad degree online while he works.  I don't think it's terrible that he wants to work at a good job since he wasn't feeling the college experience but if he ever wants to move on, he might need that degree. 

Right and it would pretty much make everyone happy that Junior was trying. How he is shown now, he has scored some big things, but he keeps acting like he's good now. He got a dose when he was kicked out of the house and even Pops telling him all the sacrifices his parents have made and he is just throwing it away. He's lucky he has a girlfriend to live with in his new apartment because it pretty much shows that Junior has no friends now, they have either moved on or went to college and are starting to find themselves. Junior's mind set is: "If I get some big scores, life is good." Missed a piece between Junior and Zoey, but I blame that on the writers. 

[LadyintheLoop]

I lost some sympathy for Bow when she revealed her weirdly specific expectations for Junior.

So just how long can the kid keep his nickname? Dre will always be Dre, so Junior could become the Andre Johnson. Imagine how his father would feel about that.

Quote

 I would like to see Junior finding out that trying to strike out making just what he makes with only possible advancement in his dad's company is going to at least make him see he needs more education AND work experience to get anywhere in life. 

Especially since he'll have no credit, thanks to Pops.

[AnimeMania]

"I should just go F* myself!" You caught me off guard there Rainbow.

How can you kick somebody out on your house and just go visit where they ended up and trash talk place and bad mouth the people they are staying with. They are lucky Junior had a roof over his head and wasn't living in a cardboard box, because that is what they really wanted. They probably haven't changed DeVante's diaper since Junior left.

[Dee]

JACK. JOHNSON. AS. THE. BAD. DOCTOR.

I need this show ABC! I need it ASAP!

[Traveller519]

7 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

"I should just go F* myself!" You caught me off guard there Rainbow.

Don't tell Jack and Diane's classmates. There will be a line around the block to see that...

I thought they handled to resolution of this arc pretty well. Dre had a begrudging acceptance of the Gap year and did feel Junior had come out the better for it, but still wanted to set his child up for success with an education. I like that the family wasn't willing to blindly support the decision either, but ultimately respected him enough to make his own choice.

Can we all agree Dre at his own agency would have been a spectacular failure though?

[readster]

27 minutes ago, Traveller519 said:

Can we all agree Dre at his own agency would have been a spectacular failure though?

In more ways than one. Despite the dumb asses he works with, Dre would have crashed and burned. Same with Charlie, they both keep that company going, as the old saying goes: "They need them more than Dre and Charlie need them."

[ItCouldBeWorse]

15 hours ago, LadyintheLoop said:

I lost some sympathy for Bow when she revealed her weirdly specific expectations for Junior

Exactly. Did Junior ever show a desire to spend 7 or more years post-college training to be a doctor? I thought she wanted him to have a solid education, not just be a mini-me. 

Edited May 22, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Aileen]

Next time I argue with family, I'm just going to yell "I should go fuck myself!" That was so random.

I had no idea who Zion was...but after googling I guess she's the other intern at the advertising agency?

It was nice of them to remember that Zoey exists, but bizarre to see her all smiley with her family considering how the mid-season finale of Grown-ish ended.

[readster]

25 minutes ago, Aileen said:

It was nice of them to remember that Zoey exists, but bizarre to see her all smiley with her family considering how the mid-season finale of Grown-ish ended.

Right and they SAID Zoey's being cut off would effect Black-ish and didn't do anything. If anything, it should have been a wake up call not only to Junior that he also went too far, but also for the twins with: "Remember, be ourselves, but don't do STUPID things like Zoey and Junior." 

[NUguy514]

This Junior arc has been just a spectacular failure.  I think the show just didn't want Marcus Scribner to leave (and Scribner himself probably didn't want to leave either), so they concocted this gap year plot.  They wrote Junior as having made an impulsive, panicked decision to drop out and now are trying to reverse-engineer it as a thoughtful decision that was for him always about realizing college was not for him and forging his own path or whatever.  The problem is that this has never, ever made sense to me for Junior as a character.  The initial fear did, but not anything else about this ridiculous storyline.  Junior has always been portrayed as by far the most scholastic of the Johnson kids, and there is no way he of all people wouldn't be 150% gung-ho about college.

Frankly, if they had wanted to tell this particular story, they chose the wrong Johnson kid: this plot would've made a LOT more sense to me for Zoey, not Junior.

[Arcadiasw]

3 hours ago, Aileen said:

It was nice of them to remember that Zoey exists, but bizarre to see her all smiley with her family considering how the mid-season finale of Grown-ish ended.

Since everyone who watch Black-ish don't watch Grown-ish, they probably thought it would be odd to viewers if Zoey was acting anything but happy with the family. 

13 hours ago, LadyintheLoop said:

I lost some sympathy for Bow when she revealed her weirdly specific expectations for Junior.

So just how long can the kid keep his nickname? Dre will always be Dre, so Junior could become the Andre Johnson. Imagine how his father would feel about that.

Bow has seen how Dre acted with Junior over the years over them not being alike. You would think Bow wouldn't be the same in wanting him to follow her career. 

I'm amazed the nickname has gone as far as it has, too. I thought by high school especially his senior year Junior would want to be called Andre. 

When Junior began working with Dre, I think it would've been more professional to call Junior Andre. 

11 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

How can you kick somebody out on your house and just go visit where they ended up and trash talk place and bad mouth the people they are staying with. They are lucky Junior had a roof over his head and wasn't living in a cardboard box, because that is what they really wanted. They probably haven't changed DeVante's diaper since Junior left.

Agreed and it's Bow and Dre complicity that led to Junior's action on not returning to college. I think the storyline including the kicking out would've worked better if during the season they gave Junior an ultimatum. Be ready to go back to school next year or move out. At least then Junior could've been putting some money away and wouldn't be so caught off guard with being kicked out. 

[LadyintheLoop]

Back in the first season, before the relationship turned toxic, Junior wanted to be called Andy. Dre wouldn't have it.

I think that some of Junior's rebellion has been against the expectation that if you're moderately bright and at least middle class you go straight to college, period, end of discussion. How's that been working out for Zoey?

[gesundheit]

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

This Junior arc has been just a spectacular failure.  I think the show just didn't want Marcus Scribner to leave (and Scribner himself probably didn't want to leave either), so they concocted this gap year plot.  They wrote Junior as having made an impulsive, panicked decision to drop out and now are trying to reverse-engineer it as a thoughtful decision that was for him always about realizing college was not for him and forging his own path or whatever.  The problem is that this has never, ever made sense to me for Junior as a character.  The initial fear did, but not anything else about this ridiculous storyline.  Junior has always been portrayed as by far the most scholastic of the Johnson kids, and there is no way he of all people wouldn't be 150% gung-ho about college.

Frankly, if they had wanted to tell this particular story, they chose the wrong Johnson kid: this plot would've made a LOT more sense to me for Zoey, not Junior.

And truly, there's no reason at all he couldn't go to college locally and still live at his parents' house. Or still do the job and take night classes part-time! This was a bad way to keep the actor.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Frankly, if they had wanted to tell this particular story, they chose the wrong Johnson kid: this plot would've made a LOT more sense to me for Zoey, not Junior.

Exactly.  Zoey just wants to work in the fashion industry; she doesn't appear to have any great interest in discussing literature, mathematics or philosophy with her peers, or learning from great professors. On the other hand, Junior has been written as the type of person who would thrive in such an environment.

There could have been a cool show about Zoey trying to make it in the fashion industry with no training, but I guess it would have been difficult to keep Junior on Black-ish and show his day-to-day life at Howard.

[Dee]

2 hours ago, Arcadiasw said:

Bow has seen how Dre acted with Junior over the years over them not being alike. You would think Bow wouldn't be the same in wanting him to follow her career.

Except that's EXACTLY how Rainbow has acted with Andre's favorite, Zoey; so her behavior, with her own self professed favorite, should come as no surprise.

[readster]

25 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Exactly.  Zoey just wants to work in the fashion industry; she doesn't appear to have any great interest in discussing literature, mathematics or philosophy with her peers, or learning from great professors. On the other hand, Junior has been written as the type of person who would thrive in such an environment.

There could have been a cool show about Zoey trying to make it in the fashion industry with no training, but I guess it would have been difficult to keep Junior on Black-ish and show his day-to-day life at Howard.

In my opinion they went about both characters wrong. Zoey wants to be in the fashion world and could care less about what her academics are teaching her. Especially, if it doesn't relate to her major. Instead they turned into: "Went to college, parent freedom, now due stupid stuff." With Junior they reversed it from what his character has been since day 1. "Do my best and do all the cool stuff I can do in school and then go from there." Instead they turned it into: "Roommate scared me, I NEVER EVER WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE... EVER!" In the end, it was bad writing and just not having really any type of plan for the character. 

[Dee]

2 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

 They wrote Junior as having made an impulsive, panicked decision to drop out and now are trying to reverse-engineer it as a thoughtful decision that was for him always about realizing college was not for him and forging his own path or whatever. 

Or they wrote him as deciding college is not for him and realizing over the course of his gap year where his genuine passion really lies and deciding to take the steps to pursue it.

Which ran counter to those who continue to pigeonhole Junior (and by extension Marcus) as the usual two-dimensional Black Male Nerd stereotype.

[Dee]

Quote

Zoey just wants to work in the fashion industry; she doesn't appear to have any great interest in discussing literature, mathematics or philosophy with her peers, or learning from great professors.

Except that's not true. Zoey was a great student in high school, except when the show wanted to shove Rainbow into scenes with her, then the writing became really inconsistent.

And the fashion industry, especially on a macro level, is not some shallow pursuit. It involves a complex knowledge of history, trends, cultural traditions, commerce, business management, etc. become a major success.

Look no further than fashion superstars like Andre Leon Talley, Diana Vreeland, Karl Lagerfeld, Vivienne Westwood, Jason Wu, Donna Karan, Christian Louboutin, Vera Wang, Gianni Versace, Willi Smith, etc.

Quote

On the other hand, Junior has been written as the type of person who would thrive in such an environment.

Not really. Junior, like Zoey has been portrayed as a good student in high school, but is regularly clueless when it comes to interacting with most of his peers socially.

If a good student like Zoey turned into a party animal, unintentionally, during her first year of college, then unfailingly naive Junior wouldn't stand a chance IMO.

[NUguy514]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

Or they wrote him as deciding college is not for him and realizing over the course of his gap year where his genuine passion really lies and deciding to take the steps to pursue it.

That might have been an interesting story to tell, but that's not the story the writers actually told over the course of this season.

[readster]

13 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

That might have been an interesting story to tell, but that's not the story the writers actually told over the course of this season.

Now, the spent the first 3 months of him basically doing nothing or others telling him he was doing nothing. Then finally, Dre decides for Junior to work for his company and first Junior calls him a sell out, when he really didn't get anything. Then they magically had him see a chance to be a personal assistant and Junior was all: "If I get this, I can find a true excuse not to go back to college." Then he strikes a really smart in the moment idea and then he is all: "I have made this amazing break and now I will NEVER GO TO COLLEGE EVER! ME SO SMART!" He didn't pursue finding himself, I was handed an idea and then decided to take advantage of it and now as Dre and Bow and both Ruby and Pops agreed, welcome to the real world and good luck, because we are done giving you free room and board. Of course, now this means that Dre and Bow have to actually take care of Baby D, which was another example of the writers making it up as they go. 

[Dee]

1 hour ago, NUguy514 said:

That might have been an interesting story to tell, but that's not the story the writers actually told over the course of this season.

That is the story the writers told over the course of the season.

Junior got scared at college because he felt he was seriously unprepared, he immediately returned home, proceeded to hang out aimlessly while trying new things until it was made abundantly clear by his parents and his significant other that he needed to make concrete decisions, leading him to intern at Stevens & Lido where he eventually began being mentored by his father until he lucked into a great gig that allows him the freedom to pursue his newfound passion.

.....So yeah, that's a pretty solid character arc.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Dee

[tennisgurl]

So are we finally done with this stupid gap year? Its so obvious that all of this existed because they didnt want to wright Junior out of the show when he went to college, didnt want to go to the trouble of writing him reasons to come home from college, so they decided to have him decide out of nowhere to leave Howard because "his roommate is scary" and he just dicked around at home for most of the season until they remembered to write him a plot. Then they tried to ret con this as him actually taking time to explore his options and what he wants or getting real world experience, and not the scared panicking flee that it was originally.

I dont mind the idea that Junior does not want to go to college, as traditional higher education isnt for everyone, but I feel like if he wants to get ahead in advertising, a college education is a good idea. If he does not want to go to Howard, he could take online classes or something, there are other options here. With a lot of jobs, they wont even look at a resume without at least a bachelors, and while he can be a sort of social media marketer and can probably do alright with that for awhile, there could easily be a time when he regrets having that Howard degree on his wall in the future, especially if he wants to settle down more with something more stable if he has kids or something.

Hi Zoe! Looking pretty perky for a girl who was just cut off!

Edited May 23, 2019 by tennisgurl

[readster]

1 hour ago, Dee said:

That is the story the writers told over the course of the season.

Junior got scared at college because he felt he was seriously unprepared, he immediately returned home, proceeded to hang out aimlessly while trying new things until it was made abundantly clear by his parents and his significant other that he needed to make concrete decisions, leading him to intern at Stevens & Lido where he eventually began being mentored by his father until he lucked into a great gig that allows him the freedom to pursue his newfound passion.

.....So yeah, that's a pretty solid character arc.

You summarized how it should have gone down. Instead TPTB wrote, acted and portrayed it badly. I never felt for Junior through out the season, if anything, I wish he would have been told when the season started that he had the year to decided what to do and where to go. If he didn't then he could get out. Instead it came off that by the end, Junior just said things that were not written or portrayed for the story to work. So, when he was kicked out it felt like it was 5 episodes later than it should have been.

[Dee]

2 hours ago, readster said:

I wish he would have been told when the season started that he had the year to decided what to do and where to go.

That was what he was told.

Andre & Rainbow hated his decision to leave HU, but they gave him the space to figure things out on his own. When it was clear he still had no plan, his parents made him get serious about his life.

[Dee]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

If he does not want to go to Howard, he could take online classes or something, there are other options here.

And yet, when Zoey suggested those very options for herself, Rainbow treated her like dirt.

[Court]

Couldn't Junior just go to community college near home and still work? While I agree college isn't for everyone, that's just not how this was told. I'm a huge advocate of vocational/trade school but for advertising, Junior will eventually need a college degree.

[Dee]

Everyone doesn't need college and/or a degree to become a success.

And it's not as if Junior can't attend college in the future, if he changes his mind.

[xander874]

This gap year could've been a good storyline. I would have loved to see Junior at various jobs trying to find his voice.

And I wanted him to point out to Rainbow that college will still be there if this thing doesn't work for him. It's not like his life will be ruined if he experiences real life for a couple of years (assuming he fails). I did think that Junior was harsh to Dre in that office scene.

I didn't hate this finale but I felt it was kinda all over the place.

[joanne3482]

20 hours ago, Dee said:

And the fashion industry, especially on a macro level, is not some shallow pursuit. It involves a complex knowledge of history, trends, cultural traditions, commerce, business management, etc. become a major success.

Similarly Marketing isn't just tweeting and putting slogans on things.  There's the analytics, understanding your client base, etc.  I have a friend who has a masters in marketing. Just because Junior has had a couple good ideas doesn't mean it will always be this easy for him. And to climb the corporate ladder he will have to get a more formal education I think. 

4 hours ago, xander874 said:

This gap year could've been a good storyline. I would have loved to see Junior at various jobs trying to find his voice.

I agree. I think I would have liked to see him do something entirely different. He likely has absorbed some of Dre's knowledge about marketing and advertising which has been helpful to him but it feels lazy to me to just have him go into advertising. This is the first real job he tried and he happens to be good at it right now. 

[readster]

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So are we finally done with this stupid gap year? Its so obvious that all of this existed because they didn't want to wright Junior out of the show when he went to college, didn't want to go to the trouble of writing him reasons to come home from college, so they decided to have him decide out of nowhere to leave Howard because "his roommate is scary" and he just dicked around at home for most of the season until they remembered to write him a plot. Then they tried to ret con this as him actually taking time to explore his options and what he wants or getting real world experience, and not the scared panicking flee that it was originally.

Right and no matter what the writers want us to think they had this all planned out, they really didn't. There are too many holes in the entire plot since the season began. I agree, college isn't for everyone, but at the same time. Junior is thinking he can just ride this out and he'll be good in life. Just 5 7 episodes ago, he was happy he got to be an assistant and his words were: "If I keep on this track, I'll NEVER HAVE TO GO COLLEGE AGAIN!" That right there didn't show someone who was trying to "FIND HIMSELF" that was someone who wanted an excuse not to do things. The only thing that was consistent with Junior was he alone took care of his baby brother's needs, which was actually pretty sad and also showed a weakness of the writers had NO IDEA what to do with Demante and have made it up as they went along. Showing the writers can't think of a good story line when they throw something not planned on the show. Baby D was because the show creator had a baby so late in life. Junior's situation was because the writers/producers/actors did not want the character gone from the show. They've proven the past 2 years, that when they don't plan something, it goes very, very wrong. 

[joanne3482]

1 hour ago, readster said:

The only thing that was consistent with Junior was he alone took care of his baby brother's needs,

It's unfortunate they didn't expand on that and had Junior look into early childhood education or elementary education.  He seemed to be really invested in Devante and taking care of him.  He cares so much about this child he screwed up TWO dates with a girl to cater to the kid.  To me, that's passion. Now I'm not sure if it is just passion because Devante is his baby brother or no, but that could have been an area to explore.  Especially given the classist values Bow and Dre appear to share. Elementary school teaching requires a college degree, but it isn't nearly as rewarding financially as advertising or being a doctor. It's also a traditionally female role which I could see Dre having issue with.  

[Dee]

9 hours ago, joanne3482 said:

 Just because Junior has had a couple good ideas doesn't mean it will always be this easy for him.

Right. But the gig that Junior was offered does not require those qualifications so he doesn't have to cross that bridge until he comes to it.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Dee

[Joimiaroxeu]

How many guys is in Drake?

I thought that joke about Pops ruining his grandkids credit through identity theft was a fail. IRL that's a serious problem.

Drink. Is that the upscale version of drank?

[LadyintheLoop]

Quote

I thought that joke about Pops ruining his grandkids credit through identity theft was a fail. IRL that's a serious problem.

Pops is a charming old devil and the show has always played his financial shenanigans for laughs -- but yes, it's serious. Junior's inability to get one low-limit credit card could mean that a small financial emergency could snowball into his ruin.

[PradaKitty]

I can see Diane following in Bow’s footsteps and becoming a doctor (with a horrible bedside manner, of course!)

[Dee]

She actually was the only one of the Johnson kids who exhibited any affinity for medicine, after watching Rainbow at work.

[LadyintheLoop]

Diane, a doctor? She'd better become a pathologist.

Edited May 25, 2019 by LadyintheLoop

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Just imagine Dre’s apoplectic reaction if Zoe moved in with some guy who she claimed was just a friend. 

[readster]

On 5/24/2019 at 1:22 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

How many guys is in Drake?

I thought that joke about Pops ruining his grandkids credit through identity theft was a fail. IRL that's a serious problem.

Drink. Is that the upscale version of drank?

Plus, the show is very bad at having Pops or Ruby one minute be words of wisdom and the next: "How are you not in prison by now?" You get they were product of the times, but pretty much ruining your grandchild's credit score or able to purchase things or get loans is a big NO NO. Then people wonder why Dre has so many problems?

[Gothish520]

On 5/22/2019 at 4:08 PM, Dee said:

Or they wrote him as deciding college is not for him and realizing over the course of his gap year where his genuine passion really lies and deciding to take the steps to pursue it.

Which ran counter to those who continue to pigeonhole Junior (and by extension Marcus) as the usual two-dimensional Black Male Nerd stereotype.

On 5/22/2019 at 7:04 PM, Dee said:

That is the story the writers told over the course of the season.

Junior got scared at college because he felt he was seriously unprepared, he immediately returned home, proceeded to hang out aimlessly while trying new things until it was made abundantly clear by his parents and his significant other that he needed to make concrete decisions, leading him to intern at Stevens & Lido where he eventually began being mentored by his father until he lucked into a great gig that allows him the freedom to pursue his newfound passion.

.....So yeah, that's a pretty solid character arc.

Thank you! I totally agree. 

I found Junior's gap year story very interesting. I like that it was the focus of the season finale. Instead of following the stereotypical "nerd goes to college" arc, Junior went left, floundered a bit, and spent some time figuring out what HE wanted, instead of pursuing what everyone else wanted for him.

Sure, he kind of stumbled into it, but that happens a lot in real life. I know more people who have jobs that they took because that was what was available at the time than people who single-mindedly went to college and entered a profession because that's what they decided they wanted to do. I also know college grads who are doing work that has nothing to do with their major, and people who did not go to college who make more money than those that did. IMO this storyline was anything but a failure. It went against the grain and I liked it.