S01.E09: Henry Deaver

[Anela]

The Kid tells Molly where he came from, and his connection to Henry.

Edited September 5, 2018 by 17wheatthins
Episode description

[WearyTraveler]

I don't know how I feel about this episode yet.  I have a feeling many people are going to LOVE it, but I'm tired of time loops and alternate universes colliding.  I don't know. Maybe it is because I really got into Westworld and their first season of non-linear storytelling was great, but the same tactic didn't work so well for the second season; or maybe because I just recently binged a German (I think it's German) time looping series called Dark, but I'm just exhausted with all the space-time continuum exploration everywhere.

This series being billed as a Stephen King project, I was really looking forward more to the supernatural / horror angle than to the sci-fi angle.  I have to think about this some more to make up my mind.

But, I will say this, they got us good. The reason for "the Kid" not disclosing his name was a big clue that I don't think any of us even guessed right

[snowwhyte]

When they first found him and he said the name Henry Deaver why didn't they assume that was his name? Yes, there was already a known Henry Deaver from their town but there can be more than one person with the same name.

I did enjoy the episode. It felt like we were finally getting answers and I enjoyed seeing the differences between the two towns. I particularly liked seeing the differences between the two Henrys. Our original Henry has a visible weariness and wariness to him. He seems weighed down by his past but other Henry got out of Castle Rock and seems lighter. 

[Anela]

I need to watch it again, because I'm seriously lacking focus today. I'm glad that we got answers.

[jcin617]

All I could think of was the Dark Tower series:  “Go then, there are other worlds than these.”

[Cheezwiz]

I am utterly confused. The only thing I'm getting from this is that Castle Rock is a giant wormhole that scrambles people's timeline continuums and identities.

4 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

This series being billed as a Stephen King project, I was really looking forward more to the supernatural / horror angle than to the sci-fi angle.  I have to think about this some more to make up my mind.

This is how I'm feeling as well. Dealing with astrophysics &  string theory in what I thought was supposed to be an entertaining horror series is kind of wiping me out.

By the way, how many episodes are there supposed to be in total for this season? Ten? If so, I guess only one more left to wrap things up!

[tennisgurl]

We wanted answers, and answers we got! I mean, lots of questions too, but we did get answers! So, holy crap! The Kid is actually another Henry Deaver, from another universe, the bio son of Ruth and the Reverand, who died in "our" universe, who somehow ended up here, and was kidnapped and locked in the cage because Lacey thought he was the devil? I feel like an idiot for not making the connection that "oh yeah, he was saying his name. Duh" when I really should have. So maybe the voices they hear in the woods are from different time periods, or different time lines? Maybe its a hole in reality, which is something a few Stephen King stories have played with, or somewhere where time just generally gets wonky? And that cant be it, because how does that explain the hate plague The Kid, and the town in general, seem to generate? Being Stephen Kings Maine, it could be demons, ghosts, aliens, crazy people with mallets, alternate dimensions...maybe all of the above?

It was so weird seeing The Kid back when he was a normal guy, and it makes his current, almost ghostly personality, rather tragic. Really, the AU world was weird in general, and kind of seemed...a bit less crappy? Mollie is the coolest person in town (but her sister is now the screw up), Ruth is still sick, but is in Florida with a still alive Pangborn who she lived a whole life with, Dennis is alive and a cop instead of a security guard, etc. Granted, its still not great in AU Castle Rock, but its certainly different. And poor little AU Henry. Not sure if we will end up with more of a science fiction reveal, or fantasy, or some of both. But weird shit is doing down. And in any reality, Henry's dad is a crazy bastard. Maybe thats why Mollie killed him? 

At least, I think thats whats happening. I might be off on a few things though. This also confirms that, yes, Pangborn allowed his buddy to kidnap an innocent person, who is probably any more of a demon than Mollie or either Henry, and leave him in a cage for years. Nice work Johnny Law. 

Really liked this episode in general, actually. I felt like we got some answers, and I am really fascinated in seeing where this goes next. 

[ferjy]

6 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I don't know how I feel about this episode yet.  I have a feeling many people are going to LOVE it, but I'm tired of time loops and alternate universes colliding.  I don't know. Maybe it is because I really got into Westworld and their first season of non-linear storytelling was great, but the same tactic didn't work so well for the second season; or maybe because I just recently binged a German (I think it's German) time looping series called Dark, but I'm just exhausted with all the space-time continuum exploration everywhere.

This series being billed as a Stephen King project, I was really looking forward more to the supernatural / horror angle than to the sci-fi angle.  I have to think about this some more to make up my mind.

But, I will say this, they got us good. The reason for "the Kid" not disclosing his name was a big clue that I don't think any of us even guessed right

I don't like the time loop either. Like you, I was hoping for more of a horror angle too, something more eerie, the way it started out. The "happy" Castle Rock was not Stephen King fare at all. But I'm still hoping it may go that way yet. Did we really get answers? Remember, this is all from The Kid's point of view, a story he told. No one else is corroborating it. Think back to the scene where he was watching a video in the prison just before his release. The narrator was saying something to the effect of "you can tell your own story and be anyone you want to be".  The look on his face seemed to show that he was really considering that information. Quite ominous. I'm not convinced he isn't lying. Maybe it will take a turn and go into more of a horror ending. The episode did end ambiguously with The Kid asking Molly, "You believe me, don't you?" and her dubious look.

Easter eggs this episode, Claiborne Creamery in the alternative and prospering Castle Rock. Nod to Dolores Claiborne. And Sheldon Stationery (writer Paul Sheldon in Misery).

Edited September 6, 2018 by ferjy

[Clanstarling]

Frankly, this was the first episode where I was truly engaged. I like the alternate universe bit, and liked the way all the little pieces dovetailing in the two universes. I can't remember them all, but the little soap (?) soldier Henry was holding when found by Pangborn in the original, the exploded sound (anti-sound) booth in the woods, etc. The "kid" and "Henry Deaver."

I agree that it's generated even  more questions. It's nowhere near the complete story (how many episodes to wrap it up? One doesn't seem like enough.) But I'd been getting pretty bored, and now, not so much.

17 hours ago, jcin617 said:

All I could think of was the Dark Tower series:  “Go then, there are other worlds than these.”

Yup. Dark Tower, and Hearts in Atlantis. King's been down the AU route. King's work has rarely been simply horror fiction, imo. Some even had no supernatural elements at all - Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption - to name one of the more successful page to film works.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Clanstarling

[freebie]

Argh ... I posted this morning, but don't see it anywhere now. Long story short, I loved this episode almost as much as the Ruth-centric episode. The parallels between Kid!Henry's version of events and original Henry Matthew Deaver (OHMD)'s version were super-detailed and thorough. These stood out to me:

• Kid!Henry gearing up with a flashlight before heading to the basement/Dennis doing the same before descending into the pit at Shawshank
• Dad Deaver and Warden Lacey saying to their respective Henry's, "Remember that story you told me ..."
• Both men being influenced to build a cage and imprison someone
• Both men committing suicide
• Kid!Henry and OHMD both exploring the homes of the recently deceased and finding evidence that the imprisoned Henry had not aged
• The fires attributed to each of the Henrys and the fact that neither was interested in getting too close to a cell mate
• Both Henrys becoming involved in sheltering the recently freed Henrys

I do think we got answers to some questions, like what Kid!Henry meant when he said the forest was where Molly died. I also thought the two timelines explains the anachronisms some folks pointed out early on -- Kid!Henry's timeline is not the same as OHMD's timeline. And the parallel universes could explain what's going on with Ruth, if she's someone not stable in any particular timestream. I noticed that young OHMD had a carved soap figure in his cell, and he had that same figure (or a similar one) in his hand when Pangborn rescued him. Those figures remind me of chess pieces, so perhaps they're meant to be a coping mechanism similar to the one Ruth uses? 

For me, the biggest reveal is that both Henrys are essentially pawns. They're not inherently malevolent or in control of some malevolence.  OHMD found himself in a parallel universe and went "home" just as Kid!Henry's Dad Deaver had received his creepy revelation.  Presumably, Kid!Henry ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time when the warden had *his* eerily similar revelation.  But Kid!Henry is a normal, respectable person in his own universe.  The only weird thing is that neither one aged while in the "wrong" universe.  OHMD was in Dad Deaver's clutches for years, but he walked out onto the ice and was rescued by Pangborn after being missing for a matter of days.  If Kid!Henry makes it back to his own universe, would he similarly be missing only for a short while?

Now I'm really curious about the other figures that were visible to OHMD and Alt!Molly in the forest.  And I want to know what really happened with Kid!Henry's cellmate, Dennis's rampage at Shawshank, the birthday party family, the murder couple, the fires in both universes, etc.  If both Henrys are not evil personified, then why are these terrible things happening around them?  Is there something perhaps neither is aware of going on here?  It's interesting that OHMD has no memory of his captivity or even events prior to it, but Kid!Henry seems to have total recall.  I wonder if that means anything.  At any rate, I'm in for the long haul.  This is getting good!

[jcin617]

1 hour ago, freebie said:

 If both Henrys are not evil personified, then why are these terrible things happening around them?  Is there something perhaps neither is aware of going on here? 

My suspicion is their presence in the alternate worlds creates a wound or tear in reality.   As a result they are letting evil though.

[snowwhyte]

1 hour ago, freebie said:

 

Now I'm really curious about the other figures that were visible to OHMD and Alt!Molly in the forest.  And I want to know what really happened with Kid!Henry's cellmate, Dennis's rampage at Shawshank, the birthday party family, the murder couple, the fires in both universes, etc.  If both Henrys are not evil personified, then why are these terrible things happening around them?  Is there something perhaps neither is aware of going on here?  It's interesting that OHMD has no memory of his captivity or even events prior to it, but Kid!Henry seems to have total recall.  I wonder if that means anything.  At any rate, I'm in for the long haul.  This is getting good!

I would guess that they have their memories from the alternate universe while they are there but once they return to their original universe the memories fade. 

i might need to give it another watch but I'm assuming that the girl in the woods with the bloody knife is key to the mystery. I don't remember what Kid!Henry said but was the story that the whole settlement died except for her and she had to eat them to survive? 

[ClaireS]

On 9/5/2018 at 6:50 PM, WearyTraveler said:

I don't know how I feel about this episode yet.  I have a feeling many people are going to LOVE it, but I'm tired of time loops and alternate universes colliding.  I don't know. Maybe it is because I really got into Westworld and their first season of non-linear storytelling was great, but the same tactic didn't work so well for the second season; or maybe because I just recently binged a German (I think it's German) time looping series called Dark, but I'm just exhausted with all the space-time continuum exploration everywhere.

This series being billed as a Stephen King project, I was really looking forward more to the supernatural / horror angle than to the sci-fi angle.  I have to think about this some more to make up my mind.

But, I will say this, they got us good. The reason for "the Kid" not disclosing his name was a big clue that I don't think any of us even guessed right

But when the warden asked him his name, he said Henry Deaver.?

[ClaireS]

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

We wanted answers, and answers we got! I mean, lots of questions too, but we did get answers! So, holy crap! The Kid is actually another Henry Deaver, from another universe, the bio son of Ruth and the Reverand, who died in "our" universe, who somehow ended up here, and was kidnapped and locked in the cage because Lacey thought he was the devil? I feel like an idiot for not making the connection that "oh yeah, he was saying his name. Duh" when I really should have. So maybe the voices they hear in the woods are from different time periods, or different time lines? Maybe its a hole in reality, which is something a few Stephen King stories have played with, or somewhere where time just generally gets wonky? And that cant be it, because how does that explain the hate plague The Kid, and the town in general, seem to generate? Being Stephen Kings Maine, it could be demons, ghosts, aliens, crazy people with mallets, alternate dimensions...maybe all of the above?

It was so weird seeing The Kid back when he was a normal guy, and it makes his current, almost ghostly personality, rather tragic. Really, the AU world was weird in general, and kind of seemed...a bit less crappy? Mollie is the coolest person in town (but her sister is now the screw up), Ruth is still sick, but is in Florida with a still alive Pangborn who she lived a whole life with, Dennis is alive and a cop instead of a security guard, etc. Granted, its still not great in AU Castle Rock, but its certainly different. And poor little AU Henry. Not sure if we will end up with more of a science fiction reveal, or fantasy, or some of both. But weird shit is doing down. And in any reality, Henry's dad is a crazy bastard. Maybe thats why Mollie killed him? 

At least, I think thats whats happening. I might be off on a few things though. This also confirms that, yes, Pangborn allowed his buddy to kidnap an innocent person, who is probably any more of a demon than Mollie or either Henry, and leave him in a cage for years. Nice work Johnny Law. 

Really liked this episode in general, actually. I felt like we got some answers, and I am really fascinated in seeing where this goes next. 

I think the kid has been in a universe for 26 years where he’s not supposed to be.  And this has changed him and turned him into a devil or perpetrator by his mind of evil.  He’s not supposed to be there and this has created the chaos and evil???  Though can ALL of Castlerock’s problems be blamed on him?  Maybe the people of CR have to start taking responsibility for their own actions???  Just my thoughts...

[Wicked]

I can't believe there is only one more episode!!  I've really enjoyed the show, I hope they wrap it up well.

[ferjy]

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Yup. Dark Tower, and Hearts in Atlantis. King's been down the AU route. King's work has rarely been simply horror fiction, imo. Some even had no supernatural elements at all - Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption - to name one of the more successful page to film works.

 

That's just it, it has already been done. And so many shows are using time this theme lately. I was hoping for something more original. It's true King's work sometimes has no supernatural elements, but this series seemed to be going down that route and was good and creepy. Now it seems those elements were just red herrings, so I feel a bit cheated. For me the shift to sci-fi was a disappointment, I was hoping it would continue with the eerie aspects. Only one episode left, but I'm still hoping for a twist!

Edited September 7, 2018 by ferjy

[ferjy]

22 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

This is how I'm feeling as well. Dealing with astrophysics &  string theory in what I thought was supposed to be an entertaining horror series is kind of wiping me out.

I guess we're in the minority, but that's exactly how I feel. I was enjoying the series up until this episode. We haven't had a good horror series since Exorcist, and they cancelled that!

Edited September 7, 2018 by ferjy

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

That's just it, it has already been done. And so many shows are using time this theme lately. I was hoping for something more original. It's true King's work sometimes has no supernatural elements, but this series seemed to be going down that route and was good and creepy. Now it seems those elements were just red herrings, so I feel a bit cheated. For me the shift to sci-fi was a disappointment, I was hoping it would continue with the eerie aspects. Only one episode left, but I'm still hoping for a twist!

Yes, exactly - for me the series started off in such a promising way, and the tilt toward sci-fi is underwhelming for me. I have a major problem with alternate universe collision stories in that literally ANYTHING can happen, therefore nothing that preceded it in the story necessarily has to make sense. When ANYTHING can happen, NOTHING necessarily has to mean anything. Which is a great lazy way to write yourself out of a corner you've backed yourself into. I feel like alternate universe stories are sometimes the contemporary equivalent of "it was all a dream" tales.

I will say the writers do seem to be making an effort to link things, as detailed by @freebie above (I liked the twist that the Kid was actually saying his own name, not requesting the services of lawyer Henry Deaver), but inside I'm just kind of sighing and thinking "oh man, really? that's where they're going with this?". Plus I get tuckered out trying to figure out multiple timelines. I know some people love deciphering this stuff, but I just... don't.

I suspect with just one episode left, they're not going to devise a conclusion that will satisfy me, but major kudos to all the actors, the cinematography, locations etc. It was a well acted and classy looking show. Very curious to see what they come up with for next season.

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Yes, exactly - for me the series started off in such a promising way, and the tilt toward sci-fi is underwhelming for me. I have a major problem with alternate universe collision stories in that literally ANYTHING can happen, therefore nothing that preceded it in the story necessarily has to make sense. When ANYTHING can happen, NOTHING necessarily has to mean anything. Which is a great lazy way to write yourself out of a corner you've backed yourself into. I feel like alternate universe stories are sometimes the contemporary equivalent of "it was all a dream" tales.

I will say the writers do seem to be making an effort to link things, as detailed by @freebie above (I liked the twist that the Kid was actually saying his own name, not requesting the services of lawyer Henry Deaver), but inside I'm just kind of sighing and thinking "oh man, really? that's where they're going with this?". Plus I get tuckered out trying to figure out multiple timelines. I know some people love deciphering this stuff, but I just... don't.

I suspect with just one episode left, they're not going to devise a conclusion that will satisfy me, but major kudos to all the actors, the cinematography, locations etc. It was a well acted and classy looking show. Very curious to see what they come up with for next season.

“It was all a dream”, lol. Good analogy. And it seems so many shows lately are more concerned with surprising the viewers than good storytelling. I’m with you about being underwhelmed. Everyone is going gaga over the details but I’ve lost interest. I don’t even mind working things out but with the sci-fi slant, people are putting out theories without explanation. Like you say, anything is accepted.

I started losing interest after Filter, though Past Perfect was fun and briefly brought it back to the creepiness. Unless there’s a huge twist leaning back to the original feel of the show, I doubt I’ll be satisfied with the ending. A shame because the acting and production values have been great. I’ll tune in for the second season and hope they will stay away from a sci-fi theme this time, but if it ends up along the same lines, I won’t bother with the show anymore. I suppose I should have been forewarned when Space Channel picked it up in Canada. I wish they’d bring back Dusk channel. It had great spooky and creepy shows, you always knew that would be the theme.

Edited September 7, 2018 by ferjy

[bobbyjoe]

I have to wonder if we’re seeing hints of next season(s) in the in-between world, like the old-timey escaped prisoners etc.  That was Mamie Gummer in there, too, and she seems like too big an actress to just be there for a tiny cameo.  If we’re supposed to get different stories set in Castle Rock each season, maybe this mystical crossroads is going to be some recurring bridge between them?

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

I have to wonder if we’re seeing hints of next season(s) in the in-between world, like the old-timey escaped prisoners etc.  That was Mamie Gummer in there, too, and she seems like too big an actress to just be there for a tiny cameo.  If we’re supposed to get different stories set in Castle Rock each season, maybe this mystical crossroads is going to be some recurring bridge between them?

You never know, but I think it’s a thing in this show to cast bigger actors in cameos or smaller roles. Frances Conroy (Mrs. Lacy) and Jayne Atkinson (Officer Reese) come to mind. 

[Wicked]

On 9/5/2018 at 7:22 PM, snowwhyte said:

When they first found him and he said the name Henry Deaver why didn't they assume that was his name? Yes, there was already a known Henry Deaver from their town but there can be more than one person with the same name.

I think it's because Henry Deaver is so infamous in the town.   The other corrections officer immediately says, "That's not Henry Deaver."

Also, why does the warden say, "When they find you, ask for Henry Deaver."

And how did Matthew Deaver break his back in the original timeline?

[Cruella]

I think Dark does it much more elegantly. They take only one fantastic element, and weave increadibly complex story out of it. Here we have everything and kitchen sink thrown in. 

[sharifa70]

That was an interesting episode but if this show gets all convoluted and alternate universe time shift-y like Haven I’m gonna have to give season 2 a hard pass. 

[The5thGoldenGirl]

I feel really bad because I wanted to like this show, and I did for the most part, but there's no possible way to save this show.  There's one episode left, and they are not going to wrap it all up.  The next episode is going to have to throw everything and the kitchen sink to wrap up this mess.

I enjoyed the show for the most part (specifically the actors... what a cast!) but I feel the writers don't know what they're doing or going for.  From what I heard, this show will go on as a separate story as seasons continue.  Seems like a waste to me.  Awesome actors who barely got used (Jane Levy as Jackie Torrance = wasted)

Sissy Spacek deserves awards for her episode, but really?

I really, REALLY tried to like this show, but people keep showing up then disappearing, like that stupid self-made deaf guy and the Culkin brother; next time we see them, self-made deaf guy is dead and Culkin is gone.

The show was ten episodes, and they lost the plot around episode 4.

[SlovakPrincess]

So basically people need to stay out of those damn woods ....

I actually think the show is pretty well wrapped up, they just need to get Bill Skarsgard / The Kid Henry (BS Henry) back to his own timeline (if they go with a happy ending), and possibly explain a little bit more about why Lacy assumed BS Henry was the devil, what prompted the Reverend and Lacy to kill themselves, and how the Reverend initially got hurt in the woods.

We have timeline 1, where Ruth and the Reverend either had a biological kid or simply adopted BS Henry rather than Andre Holland Henry (AH Henry, the one we're used to).  In this timeline, Ruth leaves and takes her son and they go to Boston (and cut off contact with the Reverend).   She and Alan get together much earlier, move to Florida and are happy until Ruth gets dementia.  BS Henry grows up to be a doctor.    Meanwhile, Reverend stays in Maine, alone and bitter, when  AH Henry (sucked into the wrong timeline) turns up, the Reverend decides he's the devil and locks him in the basement for many years.  AH Henry does not age when he's not in his timeline.   After the Reverend kills himself, BS Henry has to clear out his house and thus discovers AH Henry.   Molly and BS Henry try to help AH Henry, who somehow knows he needs to get back to the woods to get back to his own timeline.   Molly gets shot, BS Henry gets pulled into timeline 2 ...

In timeline 2, Ruth and Reverend have adopted AH Henry.  Ruth doesn't leave the Reverend, and the Reverend keeps bringing AH Henry into the woods at night to "listen for the voice of God."  One night, Reverend gets hurt in the woods and AH Henry disappears because he's been sucked into timeline 1.  The stuff we saw happening with BS Henry, Molly and AH Henry in the woods in timeline 1 happens, then AH manages to get back to his own timeline.  Meanwhile Molly has killed the Reverend because she senses he's abusive to AH Henry (and he is, in both timelines).  Unfortunately, at the same time, poor BS Henry (unbeknownst to AH Henry, I assume) also ends up in this timeline, where he wanders around until Lacy finds him and imprisons him for many years, until Lacy kills himself and he is found in the basement of Shawshank.    BS Henry doesn't age when he's in the wrong timeline (further convincing Lacy he's the devil).  AH Henry has grown up to be a lawyer and had a son of his own by the time BS Henry and AH Henry meet again.   AH Henry has apparently blocked out his memories of being stuck in timeline 1.  

The chaos in the town seems to be caused whenever two timelines cross / when alternate versions of a person are near each other.  The visions Molly and BS Henry had in the woods seemed to suggest that another girl had been crossing timelines and getting stuck in both the wrong time and timeline (the teenage girl in colonial garb who was also in modern clothes and appeared to be slitting her wrist).  So this has happened before and possibly explains previous periods of badness and chaos in Castle Rock.  Some people seem to be uniquely susceptible to the effect of the woods - Henry being one and, if she hadn't been shot first, Molly might have been sucked into another timeline.  

[SlovakPrincess]

22 hours ago, The5thGoldenGirl said:

I really, REALLY tried to like this show, but people keep showing up then disappearing, like that stupid self-made deaf guy and the Culkin brother; next time we see them, self-made deaf guy is dead and Culkin is gone.
 

Oh, right, I'd forgotten about this!  So that's another thing the show needs to explain in the next and last episode ...

Edited September 9, 2018 by SlovakPrincess

[Clanstarling]

18 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

So basically people need to stay out of those damn woods ....

I actually think the show is pretty well wrapped up, they just need to get Bill Skarsgard / The Kid Henry (BS Henry) back to his own timeline (if they go with a happy ending), and possibly explain a little bit more about why Lacy assumed BS Henry was the devil, what prompted the Reverend and Lacy to kill themselves, and how the Reverend initially got hurt in the woods.

We have timeline 1, where Ruth and the Reverend either had a biological kid or simply adopted BS Henry rather than Andre Holland Henry (AH Henry, the one we're used to).  In this timeline, Ruth leaves and takes her son and they go to Boston (and cut off contact with the Reverend).   She and Alan get together much earlier, move to Florida and are happy until Ruth gets dementia.  BS Henry grows up to be a doctor.    Meanwhile, Reverend stays in Maine, alone and bitter, when  AH Henry (sucked into the wrong timeline) turns up, the Reverend decides he's the devil and locks him in the basement for many years.  AH Henry does not age when he's not in his timeline.   After the Reverend kills himself, BS Henry has to clear out his house and thus discovers AH Henry.   Molly and BS Henry try to help AH Henry, who somehow knows he needs to get back to the woods to get back to his own timeline.   Molly gets shot, BS Henry gets pulled into timeline 2 ...

In timeline 2, Ruth and Reverend have adopted AH Henry.  Ruth doesn't leave the Reverend, and the Reverend keeps bringing AH Henry into the woods at night to "listen for the voice of God."  One night, Reverend gets hurt in the woods and AH Henry disappears because he's been sucked into timeline 1.  The stuff we saw happening with BS Henry, Molly and AH Henry in the woods in timeline 1 happens, then AH manages to get back to his own timeline.  Meanwhile Molly has killed the Reverend because she senses he's abusive to AH Henry (and he is, in both timelines).  Unfortunately, at the same time, poor BS Henry (unbeknownst to AH Henry, I assume) also ends up in this timeline, where he wanders around until Lacy finds him and imprisons him for many years, until Lacy kills himself and he is found in the basement of Shawshank.    BS Henry doesn't age when he's in the wrong timeline (further convincing Lacy he's the devil).  AH Henry has grown up to be a lawyer and had a son of his own by the time BS Henry and AH Henry meet again.   AH Henry has apparently blocked out his memories of being stuck in timeline 1.  

The chaos in the town seems to be caused whenever two timelines cross / when alternate versions of a person are near each other.  The visions Molly and BS Henry had in the woods seemed to suggest that another girl had been crossing timelines and getting stuck in both the wrong time and timeline (the teenage girl in colonial garb who was also in modern clothes and appeared to be slitting her wrist).  So this has happened before and possibly explains previous periods of badness and chaos in Castle Rock.  Some people seem to be uniquely susceptible to the effect of the woods - Henry being one and, if she hadn't been shot first, Molly might have been sucked into another timeline.  

Well, that's so reasonable I'm not sure I need to see the final episode. :)

I'd add, thanks to reading your analysis, that the "voice of God" is the sound of the alternate universes colliding, and maybe the only ones who hear are those who can cross them (though that leaves out BS - but he was shifted because young "original" Henry was there as well. Not sure if self-made deaf guy could hear and therefor cross, or was just a convert to the cult of the ringing God (along with Culkin, who was a hesitant convert at best).

[SlovakPrincess]

It may be that BS Henry was always susceptible to hearing the sound of the universes colliding, but Ruth got him out of there early in childhood, so that he had less exposure to it growing up and less time with the Reverend "training" him to listen for it.    

Or, as you say, the confrontation with young AH Henry pulled BS Henry though the timelines when BS Henry couldn't have done so otherwise.

Edited September 9, 2018 by SlovakPrincess

[littlemommy]

What I need to see is The Kid/Grownup Henry while he’s in the cell for a million years. Did he beg to be released? Tell Lacy the story of the alternate timeline? Because from what we were presented before, I just assumed he spent he whole time creepily and silently staring, like always. 

[fountain]

On 2018-09-06 at 6:15 PM, ClaireS said:

But when the warden asked him his name, he said Henry Deaver.?

Which is why the first episode I was so confused for a while as I thought the kid was Henry Deaver and who was this other person? I figured I just must not have paid enough attention or something.

[snowwhyte]

It is a bit of a ridiculous scene of you think about it. They asked his name, he said Henry Deaver. At the time, I thought, ooh there must be two Henries. I wonder where this one came from and how he's related to original Henry. Then they slipped right to, he's asking for Henry Deaver and altHenry didn't say, no, you idiots, my name is Henry Deaver. He let the misconception stand which meant i let the misconception stand.

[ferjy]

I agree that they’ll probably only address the few timelines issues remaining. I lost interest when it went the timelines route. For me, it completely changed the feel of the show. A shame because it was so good at the start. I’m not very excited about watching the last episode. Judging by the dwindling amount of posts here, looks like a lot of people lost enthusiasm and interest. What a disappointment.

[luckyroll3]

I liked it, especially as we FINALLY got some damn answers.  Although I enjoy this show, my biggest gripe is that I had no idea what the heck has been going on all season and the pace made it seem like we were never gonna find out.  Also, the story reminded me of 2 of my top King books, Regulators and Desperation, which explore this idea of having the same characters who are actually different people (i.e. if they were both movies, there would be the same character names but played by completely different actors [and sometimes genders], in two different stories and settings, but essentially battling the same big evil.  

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, luckyroll3 said:

I liked it, especially as we FINALLY got some damn answers.  Although I enjoy this show, my biggest gripe is that I had no idea what the heck has been going on all season and the pace made it seem like we were never gonna find out.  Also, the story reminded me of 2 of my top King books, Regulators and Desperation, which explore this idea of having the same characters who are actually different people (i.e. if they were both movies, there would be the same character names but played by completely different actors [and sometimes genders], in two different stories and settings, but essentially battling the same big evil.  

I agree with you on pretty much all counts - except that Regulators and Desparation are nearer to my bottom 2 of his books. LOL. Even for fans, mileage varies.

I enjoy alternate timeline stories, so for me the show perked up at that point - especially since it seemed to me that the seeds of this episode had been planted (though slowly, and boringly).

[luckyroll3]

46 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I agree with you on pretty much all counts - except that Regulators and Desparation are nearer to my bottom 2 of his books. LOL. Even for fans, mileage varies.

Lol!  For sure.  They are in my top 10, but I fully admit that part of the reason I like them so much is the connection between the two stories and other stories in the King-verse.

[Maximona]

On 9/9/2018 at 9:23 AM, SlovakPrincess said:

So basically people need to stay out of those damn woods ....

DON'T  go into that basement, Jamie Lee!

I share the general disappointment with the Alternate Universe Trope—which has replaced the It-Was-All-a-DREAM Trope in the arsenal of TV writers who are bad at plotting, I guess.

I mean, I sort of liked seeing The Kid as a lunatic MD who wanted to put Bad Science into people's brains!  And great American accent for a Swede!  But still...

Also, the Alternate Universe Trope did not quite hang together.  Why, for example, was It-Clown Henry Deaver able to give representatives from Evil Prison Security Firms Stage 4 liver cancer so quickly?  I guess I should have kept better track of how many people he actually touched, but it seems to me there were people he touched who didn't get Stage 4 Liver Cancer. 

Also, now I'm curious about Moonlight Henry Deaver's previous life before he was adopted by the Deavers.

What were all the little vignettes that appeared in the woods when the trees got all shmushy and rainbow-y?  Was the girl with the knife supposed to the the cannibal pioneer?  What about all those birds?  I've read a lot of Stephen King, but I'm not what you'd call a completist.

[Anela]

14 hours ago, ferjy said:

I agree that they’ll probably only address the few timelines issues remaining. I lost interest when it went the timelines route. For me, it completely changed the feel of the show. A shame because it was so good at the start. I’m not very excited about watching the last episode. Judging by the dwindling amount of posts here, looks like a lot of people lost enthusiasm and interest. What a disappointment.

Well, for me, I couldn't pay attention. My dog died this morning, and has had me worried for a while, but especially over the past couple of weeks. I always veer between complete denial, and complete panic. I'm also not thrilled with the change in weather. I could use some sunshine and warmth, not rain and 51 degrees. But that will be the perfect weather to binge the whole thing again, at some point. 

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, Anela said:

Well, for me, I couldn't pay attention. My dog died this morning, and has had me worried for a while, but especially over the past couple of weeks. I always veer between complete denial, and complete panic. I'm also not thrilled with the change in weather. I could use some sunshine and warmth, not rain and 51 degrees. But that will be the perfect weather to binge the whole thing again, at some point. 

I'm so sorry for your loss, Anela.

[ferjy]

13 hours ago, Anela said:

Well, for me, I couldn't pay attention. My dog died this morning, and has had me worried for a while, but especially over the past couple of weeks. I always veer between complete denial, and complete panic. I'm also not thrilled with the change in weather. I could use some sunshine and warmth, not rain and 51 degrees. But that will be the perfect weather to binge the whole thing again, at some point. 

Aw, sorry to hear that Anela, so sad. 

I agree, the weather is the pits. I’m not ready for this cold yet! It’s supposed to warm up this week for a few days, I’m so looking forward to that.  Then it’s back to cold next week. (sniffle). 

If I rewatch this, it will be the first 5 episodes only. I’ll pretend the rest didn’t happen. ;-)

Edited September 11, 2018 by ferjy

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, ferjy said:

I agree, the weather is the pits. I’m not ready for this cold yet! It’s supposed to warm up this week for a few days, I’m so looking forward to that.  Then it’s back to cold next week. (sniffle).

 

On my side of the map, I'm looking forward to cold and rain, after being choked out by smoke for months. Of course, a few weeks into the rainy season, I'll probably be complaining.

[snowwhyte]

Okay, I'm British so I have to join in a weather conversation. We had a hot dry summer here. One of the nicest summers in years but things didn't grow because we had no rain so there was still some complaints. Then the weather turned and the rain came and people complained that they missed the sun. We were told we would get an Indian summer but it hasn't happened yet. Our weather is all over the place this year.

Returning the conversation to the episode i was a bit confused about alt Henry's age. In the alternate universe he and Molly were around the same age so probably late thirties like original Henry. He looks fairly young though and Pangborn referred to him as a kid. Is it just an older person referring to everyone under forty as a kid? The timeline sync up and the age difference are among the most confusing things for me.

[JenE4]

On 9/11/2018 at 6:33 PM, snowwhyte said:

Okay, I'm British so I have to join in a weather conversation. We had a hot dry summer here. One of the nicest summers in years but things didn't grow because we had no rain so there was still some complaints. Then the weather turned and the rain came and people complained that they missed the sun. We were told we would get an Indian summer but it hasn't happened yet. Our weather is all over the place this year.

Returning the conversation to the episode i was a bit confused about alt Henry's age. In the alternate universe he and Molly were around the same age so probably late thirties like original Henry. He looks fairly young though and Pangborn referred to him as a kid. Is it just an older person referring to everyone under forty as a kid? The timeline sync up and the age difference are among the most confusing things for me.

Yeah, I thought The Kid looks like he’s in his twenties but in this timeline he and Molly are the same age and childhood friends?? I also don’t understand why in the previous episodes he was acting like he was the embodiment of Matthew. Granted,  maybe he knew everything about Ruth because, hey mom, I’m your son, but he was definitely acting like the husband. Was the girl in the woods the same actress as young Molly? I’m terrible with faces, but I’m assuming it is her and all three characters are timeline jumpers and can hear the schisma or whatever it’s called. But it’s not really god—just the voices from the alternate timelines I guess? But that means Molly was “the one who started it all”—the French settler girl who ate the other people.

[yourmomiseasy]

I'm surprised it wasn't more obvious to me this was coming because it was classic King with the alternate universes/different worlds being different floors of the tower and the woods being a thinny and the "Voice of God" being the warbling a thinny makes.  I can't remember if thinnies are cyclic (appearing every x years) and make people go crazy/do crazy things.  I remember there was something in Wizard and Glass about the locals doing weird shit, but I don't remember if the thinny caused it because it's been a good 20 years since I've read it, but I think it was -- I remember them being able to lead you to death and the sound driving people mad, so it seems like passing lunacy would be in its wheelhouse.  It makes sense that the show would all tie in to The Dark Tower series since King considers that his great opus and all roads lead to the tower afterall.  

I think the criticism that UAs are too sci-fi, too unlike King, and being done too much lately are kind of unfounded.  So much of King's work ties into the Tower and its many floors, if only through Easter egg for some, and he's been doing it for at least 35 years.

Edited September 15, 2018 by yourmomiseasy