S04.E10 Episode 10

[Diane12251]

17 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

she looks hispanic to me to. i hate when they can't cast related people to look anywhere near related. 

The little girl who plays Joanie (actually twins) must be someone's daughters.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Diane12251

[msrachelj]

3 minutes ago, Diane12251 said:

The little girl who plays Joanie (actually twins) must be someone's daughter.

what?!

[Milburn Stone]

9 minutes ago, Diane12251 said:

Me, too!!!  It would really irk me if they leave it at Ben getting away with Alison's murder!!!

Think how it will irk Ben if they frame him for Alison's suicide. :)

[Diane12251]

9 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Think how it will irk Ben if they frame him for Alison's suicide. :)

But Alison didn't commit suicide.  Ben killed her.  

Edited August 21, 2018 by Diane12251

[LuvMyShows]

On 8/19/2018 at 3:17 PM, LilaFowler said:

But Noah had told her that very thing moments before: that he would want to be with her when he died. She thinks that it's the nicest thing he's ever said to her -- because she's still in love with him. She has a love for Vik but Noah's the One. I don't know how the show will make their reconciliation organic but I think we saw the start of that with this episode.

19 hours ago, Pat Hoolihan said:

Remember, the final scene was Helen's POV - with Noah conveniently behaving exactly how she'd want and telling her exactly what she needed to hear. 

Yes!!! Nothing about the revelations in that scene rang true to me, especially given that even as recently as when Noah dropped off Alison at Helen and Vik's, we weren't seeing this sort of deep appreciation of Helen from Noah, or vice-versa.  Their marriage had been shit for years, they treated each other horribly during the divorce and after, and we haven't seen near enough to suggest this sort of water-under-the-bridge nostalgia for each other...especially on the part of Helen, even moreso than Noah.  The realizations she has come to about her feelings for Vik would likely only confirm for herself how big a narcissistic a*hole Noah was, and how miserable her marriage was. 

On 8/20/2018 at 9:31 AM, GussieK said:

Hospitals no longer adhere strictly to the "next of kin" rule for a variety of reasons, particularly under circumstances like this where they already know who Helen is and she has regularly been admitted to the room under all kinds of dire conditions.  She said she was his wife to get past the gatekeeper, but she said it hesitantly, because she is not really his wife, I think we have figured out from hints.  If there has been anything explicit one way or another, maybe someone could point it out. 

We also got confirmation from Vik's parents that Helen and Vik aren't married, because I doubt that even they would have called that female-doctor-from-Vik's-long-ago-past his "girlfriend", if Helen had been his wife for several years, nor do I think Helen would have reacted as charitably as she did when they said that.

6 hours ago, attica said:

I do enjoy that at least one person in every ep (in which he appears) calls him 'Noah Fucking Solloway.' It just feels right.

Love this, and wish they would throw in more intentionally humorous throwaway things like that.

On 8/20/2018 at 12:35 PM, preeya said:

Strangely and The Affair go hand in hand.   But yes the Joanie thing was very weird. Also, I can't imagine where he'd be going with her. Doesn't she have school?

They mentioned it was Thanksgiving, when Helen was surprised when what's-her-brat was in her kitchen and not away at school.  So that at least allows for a getaway of about 5 days.  

On 8/20/2018 at 5:02 AM, weaver said:

By the way, my memory is failing me.  When did Cherry become such a caring and articulate parent?  (and give Mare Winningham a chance to strut her stuff beautifully?)

Yep, another relationship where the conversation this episode rang entirely false.  We've seen Cherry for years, from multiple people's perspectives, and never seen anything close to this, even in other emotionally challenging/devastating situations.

[LuvMyShows]

On 8/19/2018 at 12:25 PM, weaver said:

The Princeton scene was ridiculous.  

 

On 8/19/2018 at 3:17 PM, LilaFowler said:

I did groan a lot during Noah's segment. Of course the kid in that class was a huge fanboy. Of course the blonde Head of the Department had a secret crush on him and was still enamored. He really is arrogant, isn't he?

And the fact that the class discussion took place in a dark-paneled room with leather chairs/sofa, made it all that much worse.

Interestingly, even in Noah's version, he was a petulant dick, running out all in a huff when he heard Anton's "wonderful" prose, and lighting in to him without ever stopping once to consider a different point of view.  IRL, our arrogant Noah would have been quite flattered that Anton had chosen to write about him, and would have focused on the positive.  He also never would have let his emotions get the better of him at a place like Princeton, in public, especially when he had already been praised to the heavens by that fan-boy and wouldn't want to tarnish his image

On 8/19/2018 at 10:26 PM, PrincessPurrsALot said:

I assume the cancer story from English Professor Donna* was the reason she didn't expose her breast on the quad to entice Noah to sleep with her.  Princeton is a mighty big place for him to have been such a BMOC.  Has any woman ever met Noah and not wanted him?

But even so, his POV had her walking up behind him in the quad and hugging herself against his back (or something like that).  I remember assuming at the time that they must have had a sexual relationship in college, but we found out that didn't happen, so it made her doing that gesture even more unlikely.

[Milburn Stone]

18 minutes ago, Diane12251 said:

But Alison didn't commit suicide.  Ben killed her.  

It strikes me as the height of comedy (and irony) that the various camps are proving the supremacy of subjectivity just as the show has claimed. We all watched the same show. Some think they saw (for all sorts of reasons) that Alison was murdered. Some are just as sure they saw (for just as many if not more reasons) Alison's fantasy as she committed suicide. Sarah Treem (no exception herself to the rule that all humans see everything subjectively) sees murder in the events she put on the screen--but she is in no more control of the meanings she has purveyed than the patient on the psychoanalyst's couch is of the dreams she reports.

[Diane12251]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

It strikes me as the height of comedy (and irony) that the various camps are proving the supremacy of subjectivity just as the show has claimed. We all watched the same show. Some think they saw (for all sorts of reasons) that Alison was murdered. Some are just as sure they saw (for just as many if not more reasons) Alison's fantasy as she committed suicide. Sarah Treem (no exception herself to the rule that all humans see everything subjectively) sees murder in the events she put on the screen--but she is in no more control of the meanings she has purveyed than the patient on the psychoanalyst's couch is of the dreams she reports.

Interesting... I don't agree, but your perspective is interesting.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Diane12251

[lampwick]

On 8/20/2018 at 1:37 PM, CleoCaesar said:

I guess I'll never understand this postmodern (?) approach to text analysis. IMO of course an author is more privvy to the characters he or she created. They literally wouldn't exist without the author, nor would anything that happens to the characters. An author's interpretation of his or her own text will always be the correct one, and certainly more correct than a fan's reading of it. I think it takes a certain amount of arrogance (no personal offense intended, Milburn Stone) to state that someone understands an author's words/character more than the author who wrote/created them. Or that a fan's reading and the author's reading is on the same level of "correctness."

I’ll take a shot at this - let’s say you write a paper and the teacher says “you didn’t explain x” and you say, “yes I did- look at this paragragh, it’s right there” and the teacher says “that’s not what this says; this says y”. Your intent was different from what the reader understood.  Sure, you can say the teacher is wrong, but the intent of the writer can be unsuccessful.  When that happens, it’s the reader’s perception that becomes the reality of the writing.  Another example is when you have muddy dialog or actors who fail to emote properly.  When that happens, the screenwriter’s or director’s “right answer” doesn’t hold water because that is not what was conveyed.  More specifically, let’s say an actor in a movie is slightly smirking while crying?  If most of the viewers believe the grief is disingenuous, does that mean true grief was still the “right answer” because the director says so?    Quite often the intent of the writers and/or directors fails because the acting and/or the dialog is unclear - which is why it’s instructive what the writers and directors intended when trying to figure something out, but it might be in conflict with what was actually shown to the viewers- in which case, their intent is irrelevant.  Show me, don’t tell me ;)  

[Diane12251]

6 minutes ago, lampwick said:

I’ll take a shot at this - let’s say you write a paper and the teacher says “you didn’t explain x” and you say, “yes I did- look at this paragragh, it’s right there” and the teacher says “that’s not what this says; this says y”. Your intent was different from what the reader understood.  Sure, you can say the teacher is wrong, but the intent of the writer can be unsuccessful.  When that happens, it’s the reader’s perception that becomes the reality of the writing.  Another example is when you have muddy dialog or actors who fail to emote properly.  When that happens, the screenwriter’s or director’s “right answer” doesn’t hold water because that is not what was conveyed.  More specifically, let’s say an actor in a movie is slightly smirking while crying?  If most of the viewers believe the grief is disingenuous, does that mean true grief was still the “right answer” because the director says so?    Quite often the intent of the writers and/or directors fails because the acting and/or the dialog is unclear - which is why it’s instructive what the writers and directors intended when trying to figure something out, but it might be in conflict with what was actually shown to the viewers- in which case, their intent is irrelevant.  Show me, don’t tell me ;)  

But even so, obviously some people think Alison's murder by Ben was clearly shown, and others don't.  So... 

[AngelaHunter]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

his parents will ask Helen, "Who is she and why is she here?" and Helen will think for a moment and then say, "Vik cheated on me by fucking her next door".

I can't help but think what would make that even better would be Helen then saying, "But I forgave him. That Sierra's got something extra special and I fucked her too" (something I don't understand, but whatever) and then sailing out, head high.

[Diane12251]

7 minutes ago, AngelaHunter said:

I can't help but think what would make that even better would be Helen then saying, "But I forgave him. That Sierra's got something extra special and I fucked her too" (something I don't understand, but whatever) and then sailing out, head high.

That would be hilarious!!!

[Pike Ludwell]

17 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

Whitney has always been that way, it isn't a new development.  

Didn't say it was new. Earlier she had to be judged as a child, or teenager, and her ways could have been attributed to that. Now her behavior seemed to me worse than ever, and she is an more of an adult, so you can fairly judge her as an adult as a pretty hideous person. You can't really generalize children like that because their weird behavior is usually more short-lived, and they grow out of it. Last season with Noah she at least showed some signs of maturing - learning from her stupid mistakes. So it was up in that air if she'd end up ok. This episode showed she hadn't changed. Now she seems worse than ever.

Edited August 21, 2018 by Pat Hoolihan

[AngelaHunter]

Whitney - I just want to grab and shake her until her brain rattles. She's a spoiled drama queen who may even have some mental issues, but was it so bad that she was upset that Helen hadn't told her that her husband/the kids' stepfather was dying, when everyone else knew? I mean of course Whitney makes it all about her, but that's something the young do since they have no comprehension that others, particularly their parents, even have feelings and think they are the center of the universe.

[vixenbynight]

On 8/19/2018 at 11:16 PM, subina167 said:

So Cole tells Cherry he was coming back for Alison. What made him think that Alison was still in love with him and even wanted him back? She didn't.

Cole felt like if he didn't at least try and work for another chance with Alison, that he would end up regretting it for the rest of his life. I do not think that Alison ever wanted to get back with him, but that isn't Cole's POV.

On 8/20/2018 at 3:03 AM, DakotaLavender said:

I think her smile was genuine happiness. I think she was happy to be alone and looking forward to her future free of all her male baggage. 

I loved Helen and Vik, but I hope that when he passes, she will not have to deal with his deluded parents in her life anymore. 

 

21 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Noah giggling when Helen ruefully admits that she fucked Sierra was strangely adorable. That whole scene was excellent.

I think that Noah and Helen could truly end up being real friends to one another in the future. I think that after all the pain and hurt that Helen went through due to the affair,  she has been able to let go. She knew that if she wanted to live, she had to let go of Noah. 

Cole has really never allowed himself to let go of Alison and that is why he was so utterly torn up about everything and still resentful about Noah.

[AngelaHunter]

6 minutes ago, vixenbynight said:

I loved Helen and Vik, but I hope that when he passes, she will not have to deal with his deluded parents in her life anymore. 

 

That's the thing with inlaws. Once the tie is broken, when someone passes on, you never ever have to deal with them again. You don't have to speak to them even. If they phone you, you can say "Fuck off", hang up with no repercussions and block them.  Helen must be thanking her lucky stars she never got pregnant (which I thought ridiculous anyway with her agreeing to be left alone with a new infant to raise at her age.) I know extreme circumstances can make people kinda crazy, but that was insanity.

I still think Ben killed Alison. I don't think he ever planned it or even meant to do it. I think it was what used to be called (Is it still?) a "crime of passion" (and frustration, anger, possessiveness and maybe fueled by booze or drugs.)

[chabelisaywow]

Quote

she looks hispanic to me to. i hate when they can't cast related people to look anywhere near related. 

Maybe next season will find out that Joanie isn't really Alison's daughter. SHE'S LUISA's (spoiler!) LOL

[Lemons]

On 8/20/2018 at 3:03 AM, DakotaLavender said:

I think her smile was genuine happiness. I think she was happy to be alone and looking forward to her future free of all her male baggage. 

Yeah, she’s at the acceptance stage of what’s happening.  If I was her I’d be happy the other woman is pregnant.  He wanted a baby so badly, mostly for his parents, and Helen couldn’t give him that and didn’t want to.  That worked out nicely.  

I’m still thinking that whole murder scene was ridiculous and unlikely but the next season will probably be all about that.  

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I can't help but think what would make that even better would be Helen then saying, "But I forgave him. That Sierra's got something extra special and I fucked her too" (something I don't understand, but whatever) and then sailing out, head high.

Okay, I like this better...THEN she tells them Sierra's knocked up, and then Helen walks away from the three of them forever. Why dont we just shoot our own ending to this shitshow and call it a day!

[Gemini Gipsy]

On 8/20/2018 at 2:02 PM, Blinkoshuman said:

MY condolences on your loss. I have lung cancer (good results so far from treatment.)  THe last scene with Vik and Helen was really hard for me and my husband to watch. I was hoping he’d change his mind about treatment. His statement that he wants more life is exactly why refusing treatment was never an option for me, and why I never ask the docs about a prognosis. 

I also think we are being prepared for a Helen and Noah reconciliation, and I’m fine with that.

Thank you Blink,  I wish you the best with your treatment.  I truly believe one's will contributes to the end result as much. If not more than treatment (or lack thereof).

Helen and Noah ending up together in the end would really bring everything full circle but it's hard to root for them to succeed when Noah has been painted as such an arrogant, emotionally vacant jerk on most occasions. Helen was no peach in the beginning but she has won me over. They both need to be good for each other to make the audience care. 

[Elizzikra]

5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Doesn't she have school?

Plus her mother just died, so I’m thinking the school would be pretty forgiving about absences...

[lampwick]

On 8/20/2018 at 9:48 AM, Blakeston said:

It doesn't matter that he committed plagiarism, apparently. All that matters is that, when asked to write a sketch of a fictional character, he chose to blatantly describe the distinguished guest lecturer instead - and publicly humiliated him by basically calling him "the psychopath who's fucking my mother."

Universities go wild for students who do that!

Sarah Treem clarified on Twitter that Helen and Vik were never legally married.

The funny part was that Anton was the contradiction - saying he understood what they wanted and then gave it to them.... but isn’t he seeking authenticity?  I thought he didn’t want to be around fake people and didn’t want to have to champion a cause (Malcolm X napkins).  When is he going to start being authentic himself?  Sad, that he is so programmed to give people what they want.... he’s cognizant of it now and does it intentionally, but you do that long enough, and you lose your identity all together to the point where you don’t even know who you are.  

Strange that Noah allowed the Prof to think he was a total psychopath about casually checking out the university when his wife just died.  In fact, he seemed taken aback at her question why he was there.  Cold.  He didn’t even bother to explain that they were separated.... or were they divorced?  I can’t remember.... but he didn’t feel the need to explain why he was so nonchalant about the whole thing - which made Anton’s sociopath description so perfect.  

One more thing - how do we know for sure that she was murdered again?  Is it because the previously part for episode 10 only referenced that version?  So that’s the correct version - all of it?   If so, forget the murder, the most disturbing revelation for me is Alison admitting in that point of view that she didn’t take Gabriel to the hospital because she was mad at Cole - even though he was vomiting and had diarrhea.  (Before that episode, didn’t we think Gabriel seemed okay and that when they woke up he had died with no warning? Am I misremembering here?!L)  No wonder she never forgave herself.  Apparently she needed to defy Cole and that was more important than Gabriel’s well being.  Both of them know that Cole thought Gabriel should go to the hospital and she shut him down.  Of course Cole could have taken him to the hospital when he asked her to and she said no, but Cole was relying on her nursing expertise.  She said herself she thought she knew better because she was a nurse.  Her guilt explains why she always thought she bore the brunt of the grief.  The drowning happened on his watch, but arguably the death happened on hers.  What a horrific situation to live with in addition to losing your child. I shudder.

[Gemini Gipsy]

2 hours ago, lampwick said:

The funny part was that Anton was the contradiction - saying he understood what they wanted and then gave it to them.... but isn’t he seeking authenticity?  I thought he didn’t want to be around fake people and didn’t want to have to champion a cause (Malcolm X napkins).  When is he going to start being authentic himself?  Sad, that he is so programmed to give people what they want.... he’s cognizant of it now and does it intentionally, but you do that long enough, and you lose your identity all together to the point where you don’t even know who you are.  

Strange that Noah allowed the Prof to think he was a total psychopath about casually checking out the university when his wife just died.  In fact, he seemed taken aback at her question why he was there.  Cold.  He didn’t even bother to explain that they were separated.... or were they divorced?  I can’t remember.... but he didn’t feel the need to explain why he was so nonchalant about the whole thing - which made Anton’s sociopath description so perfect.  

One more thing - how do we know for sure that she was murdered again?  Is it because the previously part for episode 10 only referenced that version?  So that’s the correct version - all of it?   If so, forget the murder, the most disturbing revelation for me is Alison admitting in that point of view that she didn’t take Gabriel to the hospital because she was mad at Cole - even though he was vomiting and had diarrhea.  (Before that episode, didn’t we think Gabriel seemed okay and that when they woke up he had died with no warning? Am I misremembering here?!L)  No wonder she never forgave herself.  Apparently she needed to defy Cole and that was more important than Gabriel’s well being.  Both of them know that Cole thought Gabriel should go to the hospital and she shut him down.  Of course Cole could have taken him to the hospital when he asked her to and she said no, but Cole was relying on her nursing expertise.  She said herself she thought she knew better because she was a nurse.  Her guilt explains why she always thought she bore the brunt of the grief.  The drowning happened on his watch, but arguably the death happened on hers.  What a horrific situation to live with in addition to losing your child. I shudder.

First things first- thank you for such a thought provoking intelligent post.  Posters like you put my simpleton thoughts to shame. I'm not the best at finding those Easter Eggs, and I'm equally as terrible at speculation.  I'm the type who knew Sierra would end up pregnant and that is where my "genius" ends. Which a 5 year old could have seen coming. 

 

I couldnt agree more about Anton. I felt it the whole time, the contradiction, HE was it. If only had I the savvy to state the same opinion with such eloquence.

 

Furthermore- as a trained medical professional myself and from a long line of them....sometimes all of that knowledge flies out of the window when its personal, especially when faced with your own childs mortality/well being.  Especailly when you are in an emotional state like Alison was. This is nothing to he ashamed of. Nothing to hang a hat on. That is for sure. 

In reference to murder vs suicide-

I've grappled with this time and time again and I cannot for the life of me decide if she killed herself or not. Even after all I've read when it comes to opinions of peers, critics and even production and casts themselves. 

 

Perhaps this is what "they" wanted to achieve. At first I was sure she killed herself,  now....not so much. I think this was the intended outcome TBH 

[NeenerNeener]

This season was better than last season but that's a low bar to get over. The only thing that really surprised me was Alison's death. Noah sleeping with the principal and taking her son cross country to visit colleges...yeah, saw that coming episodes before it actually happened. Anton's character description being about Noah AND being unflattering....knew that was coming when Professor Donna asked him to read. Sierra getting pregnant by Vik...saw that coming the first time we met her character by the garbage cans. Cole stealing the urn with the ashes...I was mumbling to myself that Cole should just grab that and run when Athena was explaining the whole beaching ceremony.

I guess I just watch too much tv.

[CountryGirl]

17 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

Someone else said Joanie looks Hispanic, and I agree.  She doesn't look like Alison or Cole - almost more like Luisa.  I agree that this was a bad casting choice.

Older Joanie's casting has always bugged me. The baby they showed Alison with when Scotty's murder was being investigated looked so much like RW, lips and all.

 

I realize there was a bit of a time jump and they had to age her up but they could have done a much better job casting her. 

[AngelaHunter]

14 hours ago, chabelisaywow said:

Maybe next season will find out that Joanie isn't really Alison's daughter. SHE'S LUISA's (spoiler!) LOL

But - she looks too Hispanic to even be Luisa's daughter!XD Too bad she can't be Ben's daughter! She resembles him most.

16 hours ago, vixenbynight said:

Cole felt like if he didn't at least try and work for another chance with Alison, that he would end up regretting it for the rest of his life. I do not think that Alison ever wanted to get back with him, but that isn't Cole's POV.

Agree. He had an epiphany when he got all the low-down on his dad and Pam(? Sorry, can't remember names ever) and went into a panic, terrified of ending up the same way - spending a life of unhappiness/bitterness with the wrong woman.  That panic and terror didn't allow for him to wonder if Alison wanted him back.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

his dad and Pam

Nan?

[Lady Iris]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:30 AM, mxc90 said:

Whitney is and will always be terrible! 

I thought Helen was going to jump off the hospital roof.

Omg, terrible, horrible, shrewish to the nth degree. The man your mother has been living with and helping to raise your siblings is dying horribly but YOUR Thanksgiving is ruined. I can't roll my eyeballs enough which is to say, kudos to the actress because Whitney made me boil.

 

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:18 PM, Penman61 said:

In any case, this scene was hi-fuckin-larious.  Anton is both a codeswitching genius and one ruthless guy.  Kudos to him. 

Savage even! Noah's eyeballs bulging was worth the price of admission. He's so glorified in his own mind that he was not prepared to hear some factual, pen to the paper truths. Well played Anton. I doubt we'll see you next season but I'll miss your character.

 

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:54 PM, crashdown said:

The Noah and Cole bits at the funeral were really well written and well acted; they were so very much in character for both of them. Noah came up with a writerly speech summing up an idealized version of Alison, turning her into a story. Cole, in contrast, was angry, full of deep feeling, and unable to communicate any of it at all. That's who both of them are, to the core. Noah talking to Cole at Gabriel's grave was pure Noah--pompous and annoying but also sort of right, and his interactions with Cole were terrific. I do hope we see more of this character pairing next season. I like it a lot, and I'm hopeful that the final season will actually be a decent one.

I absolutely adored these two together. The SYTTD scene in the hotel made me titter and teehee. I hope we do get to see them buddy up together again, I mean as much as these two can at any rate. I have to say I hated but appreciated that Noah admitted that Alison didn't make him happy. I was surprised he admitted it.

 

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 5:02 AM, weaver said:

By the way, my memory is failing me.  When did Cherry become such a caring and articulate parent?  (and give Mare Winningham a chance to strut her stuff beautifully?)

Man, I was so blown away at this scene. Cherry can truly relate to Cole's pain at losing a spouse to suicide. When he dropped his head to her lap I was completely verklempt.

 

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 3:02 PM, yourmomiseasy said:

I understand it was supposed to be touching and agree he was probably right about Alison not wanting to buried at sea, but the visual was hilarious.  Something about him running with the urn on the beach in his suit and the mechanics of how he was running.

Well, Cole is pretty much the only character on the show that doesn't buy Noah's BS and think he's god's gift.  I think that helps.

Cole's running reminded me completely of Mose from The Office. Could've even been Mose in a suit come to think of it.

 

23 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

Yes. Can't fault the acting on this show. I've been thinking Cole reminds me of someone and realized that it's "Nate" from "Six Feet Under," a very similar fucked-up asshole who had a murdered wife (who was thought to have killed herself), was left with a small daughter and was always on the precipice of implosion too.

Omg! Yes!!!  Cole is so Nate minus NARM!!! And I'd just love to add this prompted memories of TWoP and the utterly glorious snark that was derived from NARM.

 

I have to say, I've never watched anything with Joshua Jackson before The Affair but I have grown tremendously fond of him and think he's really shone during this arc.

And because it can't be said nearly enough Noah Fucking Solloway! Really has a great ring and packs a punch.

[Razzberry]

19 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

But even so, obviously some people think Alison's murder by Ben was clearly shown, and others don't.  So... 

I thought Ben was sketchy, stalkerish, controlling, dishonest, and just plain creepy from the get-go,  and had no problem believing he killed her.   But if Treem had said she committed suicide, I'd also accept it because that's equally believable. 

[Double A]

On 8/21/2018 at 12:33 AM, yourmomiseasy said:

On 8/20/2018 at 8:45 PM, Pat Hoolihan said:

And Whitney ... she's developed into an extremely erratic, volatile kook who goes crazy at "provocations" any rational person would be able to deal with in a productive way. She has to be handled with kid gloves or she will be hateful. Good to see Helen be blunt with her and not just take her nonsense.

Whitney has always been that way, it isn't a new development.  

Whitney is Noah pre multiple marriages, kids, affair, murder, fame, prison, redemption tour - basically pre descent. Yikes for her.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Double A

[Diane12251]

Just curious - do you think next season, the children will discover that Noah went to prison for Helen, that it was really Helen who killed Scotty?

[vixenbynight]

4 hours ago, Double A said:

Whitney is Noah pre multiple marriages, kids, affair, murder, fame, prison, redemption tour - basically pre descent. Yikes for her.

Whitney has always shown tendencies that are highly defined by Noah's behavior/actions towards Helen and their family. How her recent boyfriend came up with an excuse about her awful behavior during Thanksgiving, makes me think that IF he tries to maintain a relationship with her, that he will be the male version of Helen for Whitney.

 

52 minutes ago, Diane12251 said:

Just curious - do you think next season, the children will discover that Noah went to prison for Helen, that it was really Helen who killed Scotty?

I think that situation is definitely over and will never be revealed to the kids.

I also hope that there will be no "Who Killed Alison?" thread for the final season. 

[AngelaHunter]

7 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Nan?

Thank you. I cannot retain names.

 

6 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Omg! Yes!!!  Cole is so Nate minus NARM!!! 

Really, Cole is so much Nate (minus, of course, NARM) that I have to wonder if the writers here were influenced by Nate.

 

6 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

And because it can't be said nearly enough Noah Fucking Solloway! Really has a great ring and packs a punch.

  Noah Fucking Solloway: I think so many women seem to find him immediately irresistable because at first glance he seems to be successful, so together and so grown up. But it doesn't take long for them to find out he's a fucking mess - even French Woman: "You take care of your daughter and I'll take care of mine" = "Don't call me. I'll call you." 

[yourmomiseasy]

4 hours ago, Diane12251 said:

Just curious - do you think next season, the children will discover that Noah went to prison for Helen, that it was really Helen who killed Scotty?

I thought Helen already told them.  Maybe I'm misremembering and she only told Vik?

[vixenbynight]

10 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

I thought Helen already told them.  Maybe I'm misremembering and she only told Vik?

She only told Vik.

[JenE4]

On 8/20/2018 at 1:36 AM, Armchair Critic said:

They did meet once, it was at the Lockhart Ranch when Whitney was seeing Scotty (Cole's brother), Cherry asked them not to turn Scotty in and Cole held a gun on Noah.

 

On 8/20/2018 at 12:08 AM, Jaclyn88 said:

I'm up for cole and Helen to end up together . They never met so I'm assuming that's a no but can we please give these 2 happiness after seeing them depressed for 4 seasons ? 

Helen was also at Cole’s wedding to Luisa, so they knew each other.

On 8/21/2018 at 3:08 PM, AngelaHunter said:

 

Maybe he seemed calm and collected because we only saw him sober? He said he didn't like what he was when he drank, as in when he tied his wife to the bed in front of his child. Some people do turn into monsters when they drink (I've known a couple of them - scary) and maybe he had done so before he came to Alison's place? He seemed a little strung out on something.

I agree. The assessment that #2 couldn’t be the truth because we never saw Ben act that way doesn’t ring true at all. We KNOW he’s an addict with PTSD who has done a lot of work on himself because he was SERIOUSLY fucked up. And he presents himself well today but we also know he’s barely hanging on by a string and is in active recovery—going to AA, etc. Then we see him down a half bottle of whisky (or whatever it was) in like 3 minutes flat, while talking about all of his most emotionally fucked up moments—bringing himself right back into the PTSD of shooting that kid because he wanted to go home. To me it felt right that he snapped and killed Alison. (Though I’m firmly in the camp that it was murder AND suicide based on her soliloquy as she “sunk back into the ocean”—she was still alive at that point and didn’t fight to stay alive at all.)

On 8/19/2018 at 11:54 PM, chocolatine said:

 

I don't know if it was Athena's OTT kookiness or the unintentional comedy of Cole running away with the ashes, but Alison's funeral left me completely cold.

For all of the criticism about the writing of the show, I think that shows that it was written well. It was from Cole’s perspective and he was SEETHING during the whole funeral. So I think the intention was for us to feel that it was terrible and cold and a slap in the face to everything Alison would have wanted. And who the fuck are these people talking about Alison—they didn’t know her like how I (Cole) knew and loved her. And fuck this, we’re out of here [runs away with the urn]. Then, as Noah Fucking Solloway (or Noah F. Solloway) said to Cole, just let Athena be the lead mourner here and we’ll mourn privately in our own way. And they did. That was a very touching scene with Cole and Cherry. And then I thought it was also interesting that both NFS and Helen sort of resigned that we’re each losing a love, but it’s not THE love of our lives—and sort of making a pact that they would be there for each other in death. Cole had the “rights” to Alison’s death because he loved her most, and Vic’s parents have the “rights” to his death. But when it comes time for their lives to end, Helen and Noah know that they’re each other’s greatest loves—and those would be the deaths they would own mourning over. (I’m not saying more than one person can’t mourn a death—my interpretation of what I think the show is saying.)

[dangwoodchucks]

12 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

I thought Helen already told them.  Maybe I'm misremembering and she only told Vik?

You remembered correctly, Helen did tell the kids she was driving and was the one who killed Scotty. It was just before her parents dragged her into the panic room and she ended up locking them in. S03:E09

Whitney was the only kid not there.

[Rockfish]

27 minutes ago, dangwoodchucks said:

You remembered correctly, Helen did tell the kids she was driving and was the one who killed Scotty. It was just before her parents dragged her into the panic room and she ended up locking them in. S03:E09

Whitney was the only kid not there.

Thanks—I completely forgot she told anyone else besides Vik.

Cole running with the urn was funny, but once again I ended up thinking he’s a selfish prick. Basically abandoning his young daughter for hours on the day of her mom’s funeral (not to mention how confusing that stunt would have been to her) = not cool at all. YMMV, of course. I feel like the only poster who doesn’t love Cole.

I just want to add how much I’ve enjoyed everyone’s insights and opinions, even those I disagree with. Lots of smart people here. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Basically abandoning his young daughter for hours on the day of her mom’s funeral (not to mention how confusing that stunt would have been to her) = not cool at all. YMMV, of course. I feel like the only poster who doesn’t love Cole.

I like Cole a lot but it wasn't cool for him to leave Joanie during her mother's funeral - even with family.

[Diane12251]

3 hours ago, dangwoodchucks said:

You remembered correctly, Helen did tell the kids she was driving and was the one who killed Scotty. It was just before her parents dragged her into the panic room and she ended up locking them in. S03:E09

Whitney was the only kid not there.

I'm going to have to watch that episode - S03:E09.  I don't remember Helen telling the kids that she was driving the car and was the one who killed Scotty.  I do remember her telling Vik, but not the kids.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Diane12251

[yourmomiseasy]

I remember the kids being assholes, but really that could be any episode.

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, Rockfish said:

Cole running with the urn was funny, but once again I ended up thinking he’s a selfish prick. Basically abandoning his young daughter for hours on the day of her mom’s funeral (not to mention how confusing that stunt would have been to her) = not cool at all. YMMV, of course. I feel like the only poster who doesn’t love Cole.

I just want to add how much I’ve enjoyed everyone’s insights and opinions, even those I disagree with. Lots of smart people here. 

You're not alone.  I used to like Cole, but his acting out lately has been childish and seems more about him.  Agree as well about the great posters here.  

And yet, she spent her entire life living right on the ocean.  Odd.  Maybe Athena didn't take this hatred all that seriously.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

And yet, she spent her entire life living right on the ocean.  Odd.  Maybe Athena didn't take this hatred all that seriously.

I feel like that has been conveniently exaggerated this season. Weren't there first season episodes where she was walking on the beach? I recall at least one where she was sitting on the sand at night, watching the water and Noah found her (right at the beginning of their affair or maybe just before it started). And as you pointed out, she lived right on the ocean - even after she sold the house her grandparents left her and chose an apartment.

Maybe there is some convoluted explanation like Alison constantly choosing to be around this thing she hated was another form of self-punishment or whatever, but honestly I think it was just greatly exaggerated this season to aid in the storytelling.

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I used to like Cole, but his acting out lately has been childish and seems more about him.

Totally. All about him, as he ran off and left his child at her mother's funeral, then sat holding court in the cemetary afterwards, like some teenaged Emo. I was kind of hoping everyone at the funeral would come, one at a time, and converse with him as he sat at the tombstone, but no such luck. That would have been kind of awesome. That he then sticks Joanie in his car and takes off with her to parts unknown and no plan in mind - when she had just lost her mother -  with seemingly no regard as to what would be best for her was also all for him -  selfish and childish, IMO.

 

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

And yet, she spent her entire life living right on the ocean.  Odd.  Maybe Athena didn't take this hatred all that seriously.

And she let herself fall backwards off a boat where she was with a total stranger, and fully clothed, right into the freezing ocean. I love the water but that isn't something I would do. Guess she got over her hatred. Or she was completely nuts.

[Diane12251]

3 hours ago, Razzberry said:

And yet, she spent her entire life living right on the ocean.  Odd.  Maybe Athena didn't take this hatred all that seriously.

I can understand that, though.  I love the beach, but I don't like the ocean - it scares me.  So I can understand living on the beach, but not liking the ocean even though it is right there.

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, AngelaHunter said:

Totally. All about him, as he ran off and left his child at her mother's funeral, then sat holding court in the cemetary afterwards, like some teenaged Emo.

That he then sticks Joanie in his car and takes off with her to parts unknown and no plan in mind - when she had just lost her mother -  with seemingly no regard as to what would be best for her was also all for him -  selfish and childish, IMO.

Great summary of it.

7 hours ago, Rockfish said:

I feel like the only poster who doesn’t love Cole.

You're not the only one!  I think that some of the people who like Cole, are actually Joshua Jackson fans from various shows he's been in before.  I had never seen him in anything before, so I only see him as selfish.

[AngelaHunter]

5 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I think that some of the people who like Cole, are actually Joshua Jackson fans from various shows he's been in before.  I had never seen him in anything before, so I only see him as selfish.

I'd never seen or heard of him before and I find his character here to be extremely unlikable so far. I can't imagine what enticed Luisa to want to marry him. Surely it wasn't his irresistable personality or sense of humour. At least Noah Fucking Solloway is capable of being engaging and even fun sometimes.

[tvviewer]

7 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I'd never seen or heard of him before and I find his character here to be extremely unlikable so far. I can't imagine what enticed Luisa to want to marry him. Surely it wasn't his irresistable personality or sense of humour. At least Noah Fucking Solloway is capable of being engaging and even fun sometimes.

I am a Joshua Jackson fan and I am really pleased to hear your reaction. I don’t like Cole either and it shows Josh is doing a great job.

[Rock knocker]

Next season is going to be hot when Vic's mom and Sierra head for the desert and some girl-on-girl action.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Next season is going to be hot when Vic's mom and Sierra head for the desert and some girl-on-girl action.

If it made Priya less of a bitch and gave Sierra a little more common sense, I could be on board.