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Spoiler Discussion Thread: The Sequel


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My only confusion is that why would they decide on doing Crisis as the next crossover when they knew they would have to do extra negotiations to bring SA back or have to try to scrape together some s8 plot for Oliver for 9 episodes, even if just appearances to try to lead up to the crossover while also leaving Beth to try to frame an exit at the same time. I get that maybe they only ultimately greenlit COIE because they got SA to agree to be in it and parts of a s8, but then they did it presumably after Beth was already preparing to write him off? I just say this since it seems like 722 will end with Olicity running off together, and that somehow will still give Arrow enough ammo for Oliver without Felicity to have a plot for 9 other episodes?

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1 minute ago, way2interested said:

My only confusion is that why would they decide on doing Crisis as the next crossover when they knew they would have to do extra negotiations to bring SA back or have to try to scrape together some s8 plot for Oliver for 9 episodes, even if just appearances to try to lead up to the crossover while also leaving Beth to try to frame an exit at the same time. I get that maybe they only ultimately greenlit COIE because they got SA to agree to be in it and parts of a s8, but then they did it presumably after Beth was already preparing to write him off? I just say this since it seems like 722 will end with Olicity running off together, and that somehow will still give Arrow enough ammo for Oliver without Felicity to have a plot for 9 other episodes?

Crisis gives them a way to write Oliver off by dying or disappearing. They even set that up with the last crossover (by leaving some wiggle room with regards to what his actual deal was). 

Also, we don't know that Oliver is going to be in all 9 episodes next season, or if he is - that he would have a big part. 

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8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Crisis gives them a way to write Oliver off by dying or disappearing. They even set that up with the last crossover (by leaving some wiggle room with regards to what his actual deal was). 

Also, we don't know that Oliver is going to be in all 9 episodes next season, or if he is - that he would have a big part. 

Oh, the reasoning of using Crisis doesn't confuse me. It's more of having Crisis as the ultimate reason but then also having a reason in the show separately of Olicity leaving town, especially since I don't think s7 is going to mention Crisis or the Moniter or Oliver's deal at all any time soon (but we'll see for 721/722). 

But yeah, what Oliver's actual role in s8 basically would actually clear it up for me, but it's just at this point I can't think of anything for present day Oliver to do in the meantime for more than just the crossover in s8 unless they reveal him in the FF and still keep the focus on the FF crew, but even that I'm not sure is what they would do.

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26 minutes ago, way2interested said:

My only confusion is that why would they decide on doing Crisis as the next crossover when they knew they would have to do extra negotiations to bring SA back or have to try to scrape together some s8 plot for Oliver for 9 episodes, even if just appearances to try to lead up to the crossover while also leaving Beth to try to frame an exit at the same time. I get that maybe they only ultimately greenlit COIE because they got SA to agree to be in it and parts of a s8, but then they did it presumably after Beth was already preparing to write him off? I just say this since it seems like 722 will end with Olicity running off together, and that somehow will still give Arrow enough ammo for Oliver without Felicity to have a plot for 9 other episodes?

Maybe he didn't tell them in time?  I don't think SA ever specified when he told Berlanti.  Maybe they had already pitched this season's crossover and didn't have time to change plans and make S7 COIE

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Oliver is currently dead or missing in the flash forwards, I think the point of COIE is to reverse that future. I doubt they will ever kill Oliver, they want SA to return for future guest appearances however it may be.

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13 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Oh, the reasoning of using Crisis doesn't confuse me. It's more of having Crisis as the ultimate reason but then also having a reason in the show separately of Olicity leaving town, especially since I don't think s7 is going to mention Crisis or the Moniter or Oliver's deal at all any time soon (but we'll see for 721/722). 

Maybe they couldn't be flexible in their crossover plans, or wanted to take advantage of having everyone under contract in S7 to finish out their stories and Stephen told them that he didn't want to continue with the show in a full-time capacity in S8, so they wrote an exit for him from Arrow so that he would have a written-in excuse to not be around so much in the present in the lead-up to the crossover. 

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It fits in as an excuse for Oliver not to be around at all more than just not so much though is my issue. Like, what role would he even have in the present at all sans the crossover if the exit for him in s7 was him leaving town to begin with? Would it just be a couple of calls or visits for advice or would he even have a plot in s8 or would he even come back to Star City for all of s8 to set up COIE, which would render him and Felicity leaving at the end of 722 a useless exit?

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24 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Maybe he didn't tell them in time?  I don't think SA ever specified when he told Berlanti.  Maybe they had already pitched this season's crossover and didn't have time to change plans and make S7 COIE

Yeah, he said in his FB Live he told GB "last year" which we all assumed was during season 6, but who knows? But even before they announced that this year's crossover would be COIE, the last crossover set it up pretty clearly that Oliver would be a big part of the next one. So I feel like when the crossover aired last fall, they were pretty confident that SA would be around for the next one to fulfill Oliver's promise to the Monitor.

I think you're probably right that the negotiations with SA was in stages. Like, perhaps when he said he wanted to be done at the end of S7, they secured him for just the xover, thinking that all the new characters they were introducing would have enough legs to do the rest of S8 without him (and EBR). But once they realized the audience didn't seem interested enough in the new characters to do a full S8 without SA, they negotiated again to do a shortened season that included him. His FB Live very much made it seem like GB & co. convinced him to come back for 10 episodes, not that it was already set in stone.

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10 minutes ago, way2interested said:

It fits in as an excuse for Oliver not to be around at all more than just not so much though is my issue. Like, what role would he even have in the present at all sans the crossover if the exit for him in s7 was him leaving town to begin with? Would it just be a couple of calls or visits for advice or would he even have a plot in s8 or would he even come back to Star City for all of s8 to set up COIE, which would render him and Felicity leaving at the end of 722 a useless exit?

But it's not a useless exit? He left town at the end of season 3 with Felicity, he came back, but it was a way to not have to explain what he'd been doing the past 5 months. He leaves town for whatever dangerous reason they come up with, he spends the summer with his pregnant wife in hiding. He gets called back a lot because they have some storyline they need him for, or he comes back here and there to set up for COIE or whatever storyline they have going on. Stephen gets a lighter filming schedule, there's an in-story excuse for where he is when he's offscreen. Makes perfect sense to me, and is a rare case of actual good planning and leaving themselves some breathing room from TPTB. 

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2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But it's not a useless exit? He left town at the end of season 3 with Felicity, he came back, but it was a way to not have to explain what he'd been doing the past 5 months. He leaves town for whatever dangerous reason they come up with, he spends the summer with his pregnant wife in hiding. He gets called back a lot because they have some storyline they need him for, or he comes back here and there to set up for COIE or whatever storyline they have going on. Stephen gets a lighter filming schedule, there's an in-story excuse for where he is when he's offscreen. Makes perfect sense to me, and is a rare case of actual good planning and leaving themselves some breathing room from TPTB. 

I guess so and that makes sense, I just wonder what that entails for Oliver's story exactly, like what storyline would even happen to still stay in canon for the FF and stuff like that. It's more of me just wanting a point blank explanation on how it all ends like everyone else XD

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Oliver and Felicity exiting stage left at the end of this season and the Oliver, at the very least, appearing in the crossover would have made sense story wise. The crossover threats have always been bigger than just one city apart from the first one. So the threat would have directly affect their family as well. 

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11 minutes ago, ladylaw99 said:

There are only 2 things I know

1. This is a mess

2. I want a tell all

Seriously, when is DR appearing next? Someone needs to have a conversation with that man. 

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That post made me sad. Whatever you can say about SA (and I've said A LOT), I do believe that he truly cherishes his scenes with EBR and this is not the way he wanted it to go down. Fingers crossed this isn't actually their "last episode together." Also, when he said he'd have more to say Monday I was very much hoping it would be a Facebook Live (preferably with her), but I guess that's too much to ask for at this point. Maybe next week when filming for the season wraps?

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

But it's not a useless exit? He left town at the end of season 3 with Felicity, he came back, but it was a way to not have to explain what he'd been doing the past 5 months. He leaves town for whatever dangerous reason they come up with, he spends the summer with his pregnant wife in hiding. He gets called back a lot because they have some storyline they need him for, or he comes back here and there to set up for COIE or whatever storyline they have going on. Stephen gets a lighter filming schedule, there's an in-story excuse for where he is when he's offscreen. Makes perfect sense to me, and is a rare case of actual good planning and leaving themselves some breathing room from TPTB. 

It's a case of good planning if you assume most of the audience will be down with an EBR-free, possibly SA-lite shortened season. I'm genuinely curious how the majority of casual viewers will react. I would definitely have preferred for their plan to result in S7 being the end, and Arrow regulars appearing in just the crossover next year (maybe by extending Flash's by two hours if Arrow is no longer on the air?). Arrow has always, always had to sacrifice its own story building to set up new DCTV shows/accommodate crossover storylines, but the show finishing without vital cast members just so they can make it to COIE feels like a bridge too far.

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Quote

It fits in as an excuse for Oliver not to be around at all more than just not so much though is my issue. Like, what role would he even have in the present at all sans the crossover if the exit for him in s7 was him leaving town to begin with? Would it just be a couple of calls or visits for advice or would he even have a plot in s8 or would he even come back to Star City for all of s8 to set up COIE, which would render him and Felicity leaving at the end of 722 a useless exit?

Well SA did agree to come back for a short final season 8, I would think he is fully committed to being prominent in all of it. Im guessing the point of a short final season 8 is that so the show ends on and with Oliver and not some knock off they initially were planning when SA wanted out. Seems to me its important to SA that Oliver and the show gets a proper wrapping up. Its short enough that he can commit to all of it, otherwise why come back at all.... He would just have let the showrunners continue with a different lead and the knock off show. They decided to end the show on SA/Oliver, its only fitting that the final season should be Oliver centric. 


In story, there is the 9th circle threat that may carry over for next season , I cant see Oliver  settling outside Star City with that threat looming. He has to be there to destroy the final big bad. That could be his storyline for final season and everything else that needs closure. The show is already losing 2 cast members this season, so they are gonna really need their lead actor/character for season 8.

Just speculating. 

Edited by suncity
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3 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

Oliver is currently dead or missing in the flash forwards, I think the point of COIE is to reverse that future. I doubt they will ever kill Oliver, they want SA to return for future guest appearances however it may be.

Technically Oliver is only not mentioned.  We don't know he's officially missing or dead.  Just that he wasn't there in the scenes we saw.  They've let us draw conclusions but they also implied Mia's whole life was on the mean streets of Star City.  

3 hours ago, Trisha said:

Yeah, he said in his FB Live he told GB "last year" which we all assumed was during season 6, but who knows? But even before they announced that this year's crossover would be COIE, the last crossover set it up pretty clearly that Oliver would be a big part of the next one. So I feel like when the crossover aired last fall, they were pretty confident that SA would be around for the next one to fulfill Oliver's promise to the Monitor.

I'm pretty sure he's said elsewhere specifically at the end season six that he let them know he'd be done after season 7.  

6 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

OK I was trying to remain calm and collected but SA's post sent me over the edge. It really is over isn't it.

I don't think SA's post changes anything we know or any possible plans for the future.  They are starting their last scene with EBR as a regular.  Nothing else is guaranteed but there's nothing that has said they won't be able to find a way for her to make an appearance in a finale episode next season.  

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No, I just meant in that it really is the end of my fav couple. Whether it's now or next year, they really are gone forever and I'll never be as invested with any other ship as I was with them. Which is a good thing for me, my heart can't break again. It's like losing a loved one.

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Everything in the flashforwards are so vague, I almost wonder if even THEY know where Oliver is in the future, or what happened to him. They might be waiting for Crisis to really reveal anything, and see how that goes over with people first.

All I know is, even if Emily is gone for most of the season, if Oliver and Felicity dont end up riding off into the sunset together at the end of the show...what has even been the point?

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If they don't ride off together, I think the Arrowverse is going to take a hit.

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I think the point, rather poorly made is that once Arrow ends DR is done with the Arrowverse (at least for now, always possible he'll take a Guest Star Gig).  Wheras JH and RG are trying to get series regular jobs on Flash, LoT, Supergirl, Batwoman etc

It makes sense that he would be done with the Arrowverse oncey Oliver and Felicity are gone. There's no real role for Diggle on the other shows except as an occasional guest star.  JH, RG and EK probably want more work.

My guess is that DR is going to try to shift to directing. There are few roles for an older black man and several good actors.

5 hours ago, way2interested said:

My only confusion is that why would they decide on doing Crisis as the next crossover when they knew they would have to do extra negotiations to bring SA back or have to try to scrape together some s8 plot for Oliver for 9 episodes, even if just appearances to try to lead up to the crossover while also leaving Beth to try to frame an exit at the same time.

Because they had an idea that they really wanted to do, especially if it's the grand finale for Arrow. If nothing else, I have learned from these shows that once the EPs get the bit between their teeth, nothing stops them.

Edited by statsgirl
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Arrow has always had to carry the load of launching spin-offs and the COIE crossover seems to be having a disproportionate affect on how S7 plays out and what happens in S8. It annoys me greatly that it’s come to this because it seems they want their comic book extravaganza.

11 hours ago, statsgirl said:

If they don't ride off together, I think the Arrowverse is going to take a hit.

If they write a terible ending for Arrow where Oliver & Felicity don’t get a happy ending and both of them don’t make it out of the series alive it will definitely affect my decision to watch any Arrow: Next Generation spin-off they may want to attempt. I’d also be wary of any new superhero shows entering into the Arrowverse.

In theory COIE should affect every remaining show in the universe. I wonder how much of a hit they will take if all the shows, not just Arrow, suffer drastic changes and cast shake ups as a result of it.

I’m also curious about whether they anticipated how upset a very large part of the fandom would be about Emily leaving at the end of S7. It would explain why the information was released in advance and not left until after 722 aired.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many people talk about walking away from the show with the news that Emily is leaving. I don’t know what the audience numbers will look like for S8 but I imagine Greg Berlanti thinks it’s worth the risk to draw Arrow out for the sake of the crossover. 

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This is why I intend to keep an eye on the show even if I don't tune in officially. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I think they are taking a gamble on average Joe and general comic fans still watching their big crossover. Elseworlds seemed to have a lot of people who were excited to see Superman propose to his Aunt.

I imagine their online engagement will be abysmal though. The engagement and clicks for all the review sites will be non existent. Love or hate Felicity even the haters clicked and logged on just to complain about her. The fans now have no reason to coo over anyone and the haters have no one to fire them up. Felicity gone means they will take a double hit from both groups.

Anyone here know how Once Upon A Time turned out after the regulars left? Didn't Charming, Emma and Snow all leave? What was the level of engagement like?

Edited by Mellowyellow
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(edited)

Here's my speculation (some of which has been mentioned upthread)...

I think that, before or by the end of this season, E2 Laurel will end up fully redeemed (and will leave Star City to be a superhero either on E1 or back on E2), while Emiko will end up still evil as f**k.

Oliver, Felicity, Diggle, Dinah, Rene and Roy (who's returned to explain what happened to Thea) decide to split up and enter into the Mark of Four pact with matching tattoos, so that they will always be there for each other.

Oliver and pregnant Felicity agree that she needs to go into hiding because Emiko and the Ninth Circle are after Oliver's family specifically. However, Oliver feels that his family is responsible for Emiko going bad, so he must return to Star City to try to redeem/defeat Emiko and right this wrong/save his city.

S8 present day will be all about Oliver fighting Emiko/Ninth Circle and laying the seeds for the flashforwards (Diggle/Knightwatch, Dinah/Canaries network, Rene/newGlades), while resolving the flashforwards story in the future.

As for how they will explain Felicity's absence even in the flashforwards, maybe they will resolve the flashforwards story this season and have no flashforwards next season, except in the series finale. Otherwise, I don't know.

I hate the idea that Felicity would be killed off in the future. But I don't see how she would ever agree to leave her children in danger, even with a big bounty on her head, in order to go into hiding again. Maybe Mia or William is captured by Eden Corps, Felicity agrees to trade herself for her child, and then her fate is unknown until the very end of the series. Or maybe - and this is more fanfic than realistic - we find out Oliver is alive in the future this season, we get an Olicity reunion scene, then we find out Felicity is pregnant again in the future and agrees to go into hiding again to protect the new child. (*grasping at straws*)

Edited by tv echo
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10 minutes ago, tv echo said:

As for how they will explain Felicity's absence even in the flashforwards, maybe they will resolve the flashforwards story this season and have no flashforwards next season, except in the series finale. Otherwise, I don't know.

Beth said the FF would continue until the end of the series and seems to really like BL and KM, so unless TPTB told her the ax them, I think they are continuing.

12 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I hate the idea that Felicity would be killed off in the future. But I don't see how she would ever agree to leave her children in danger, even with a big bounty on her head, in order to go into hiding again.

In thinking about it more, I actually do kind of think that might be how they resolve Felicity not being in the FF past s7 Not in a "Felicity will leave her children in danger" way per se, but in a "Felicity decides she no longer needs to try to save the city by herself now that she can leave it to William and Mia" to kind of give Mia the push to actually stay with the group (since KM implied that as of 718 Mia is still not gung-ho on actually being a vigilante beyond where her mom was concerned) if it means Felicity would actually go away into safety. Not a perfect reason, since of course Felicity would in actuality stay trying to save the city into her retirement, but it could be a character reason that at least relates to the character development of William and Mia and at least some explanation as to why Felicity would go beyond EBR leaving.

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3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Anyone here know how Once Upon A Time turned out after the regulars left? Didn't Charming, Emma and Snow all leave? What was the level of engagement like?

Online engagement was down but, more importantly, the general consensus was that the last season was boring.  They didn't give Snow or Charming a goodbye episode, which really drove home how little they cared about the characters, but they did give Emma and Hook one where they revealed that she was pregnant and the two went back to Storybrooke to start their new family.  Colin didn't leave the show so they wrote it that a Hook from another dimension was with the remaining cast in the final season.  The joke a lot of people made during the last season was that not having Regina, Rumpel, or Henry around meant that Storybrooke was safe for the first time ever, that the Charming family immediately sealed the town border to prevent them from returning, and that was the real reason we didn't see or hear from any of them.  Even if Arrow decides to end with Oliver's death and no happy ending for him (which I still doubt), it could not possibly eclipse the Once ending of a genocidal dictator being voted Queen of the Universe by all of her victims. 

I saw that Odyssey theory and I could see that happening.  They played with parallels between Odysseus and Oliver beginning in season 1 so that could be how they close it out for season 7.  I still think Crisis will result in a change to the future unless they explicitly say that Star City went to hell as a direct result of the event. 

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1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

I saw that Odyssey theory and I could see that happening.  They played with parallels between Odysseus and Oliver beginning in season 1 so that could be how they close it out for season 7.  I still think Crisis will result in a change to the future unless they explicitly say that Star City went to hell as a direct result of the event. 

I really love the Odyssey theory -- I just wonder if the writers are that clever? (This Twitter thread breaks it down a bit):

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And here it is. EBR is going to be doing an off-Broadway show from July 5-August 3. This would have def cut into Arrow's filming schedule -- I think they usually go back to work around SCDD in July, but hopefully this means she has time post-August 3 to do some filming (assuming this was the only commitment preventing her from signing on to S8).

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I have a feeling if EBR is going to return at any point in S8, especially if it's for more than the series finale, we won't find out until SDCC. 

The thing is, if Oliver does die in COIE, I'm really not going to care how it affects anyone if we don't get Felicity's reaction. Am I supposed to feel bad for anyone from the other shows? For any of the team other than Diggle? Oh, no, Dinah's sad, but in 20 years, she'll be flip-flopping over how she feels about him/if she can trust William just because he's related to Oliver. Oh, no, Rene lost the guy he was willing to send to prison. Oh no, the city lost its hero it couldn't decide if it liked/supported or not. 

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13 minutes ago, Trisha said:

think they usually go back to work around SCDD in July, but hopefully this means she has time post-August 3 to do some filming (assuming this was the only commitment preventing her from signing on to S8).

Lol plenty of time even for the crossover hypothetically. Bet a conversation could have gone like this--

EBR: Ok, but I'm open to coming back, especially since it's the last season and all. I think I'll be free for part of it

GB: Great, you can come back in time to film during the odd stressful hours of the crossover!

EBR: ...great...

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Luckily she is Canadian and has lived there her entire life so coming back to Vancouver to shoot wont be something she's against which is happens to a lot of actors who leave shows that shoot there and just don't want to be there m

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If she doesn't have anything else lined up afterwards she could easily come back for multiple episodes.  Going by S6 filming, she could easily make any episode after 803.   If that happens, i expect it will be negotiated over the summer.  No idea about an announcement, could be SDCC or right before the premiere...although Paps would spoil it

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(edited)

Congrats to EBR!

But when does the new season usually start filming? Unless she has something else booked, it seems like there would be plenty of time to do some S8 episodes. I really hope she comes back for the finale at least. Crossing all the things right now!

Edited by Guest
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They've usually shot a little bit by the time they go to SDCC in July, so theoretically if the play was the only thing holding her back, she could be in S8 but just miss the first 1-3 episodes. I wonder if it's because she expects the play's run to go longer than a month? Or she has something else lined up? (Lindsay Morgan's IG comment mention how she couldn't wait to "tune into" what's next). Or maybe just because she's not a regular, doesn't mean she won't be popping up more than in just the crossover or finale?

Whatever it is, I do hope we get some clarification going into S8.

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34 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Congrats to EBR!

But when does the new season usually start filming? Unless she has something else booked, it seems like there would be plenty of time to do some S8 episodes. I really hope she comes back for the finale at least. Crossing all the things right now!

Nothing that says she can't but, she would definitely miss the first 3 episodes.  Beyond that who know what's going on.  Maybe she said I'm done and don't want to come back? Maybe she said I'm done but, will come back if schedules align?  Maybe she said I want only 804-810 because i have to do my play and WB said piss off?  Or maybe she said i'll do X numbers of episodes for X amount of money and WB said piss off?

She may have just not wanted to commit to 10 episodes so she could go Arrow S7 to NYC Play, to auditioning for shows in August/September?

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1 hour ago, Trisha said:

And here it is. EBR is going to be doing an off-Broadway show from July 5-August 3. This would have def cut into Arrow's filming schedule -- I think they usually go back to work around SCDD in July, but hopefully this means she has time post-August 3 to do some filming (assuming this was the only commitment preventing her from signing on to S8).

29 minutes ago, Trisha said:

They've usually shot a little bit by the time they go to SDCC in July, so theoretically if the play was the only thing holding her back, she could be in S8 but just miss the first 1-3 episodes. I wonder if it's because she expects the play's run to go longer than a month? Or she has something else lined up?...

I think if she wanted to be in Season 8, she'd be in Season 8, and the show could film around her commitment; like Supergirl did for Benoist. I think she will definitely be back for a few guest appearances, but it seems clear to me she wasn't interested in renewing her contract (play or not).

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19 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think she will definitely be back for a few guest appearances, but it seems clear to me she wasn't interested in renewing her contract (play or not).

Since we can't know for sure, the play schedule at least shows the possibilities so far for those guest appearances though.

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30 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think if she wanted to be in Season 8, she'd be in Season 8, and the show could film around her commitment; like Supergirl did for Benoist. I think she will definitely be back for a few guest appearances, but it seems clear to me she wasn't interested in renewing her contract (play or not).

It could also be that she wanted to still do both but because there was no guarantee that she could do both she chose the play...they probably weren't willing to pay her as a regular if she only could couple of episodes. Also they could've noted to her that her storyline conclusion is only needed towards the end. I can see them wanting to pay lots of money to keep SA but not EBR. Either way Im pretty sure she'll show up in the end.

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(edited)

I don’t know how TV show contracts work but if she was a regular or recurring she’d be locked in and wouldn’t be able to accept other opportunities if something interesting comes up, would she? 

I will be annoyed if they kill Felicity off in the flash forwards so I hope Emily comes back for the series finale or they’ve put a contingency plan in place to film extra scenes and hold it over until the end of S8.  

The Odyssey parallel of a reunion after a 20 year separation doesn’t exactly thrill me but I’ll take it over an ending of death for Oliver and/or Felicity. 

Edited by kes0704
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