Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[jay741982]

23 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

What's interesting about that arc is that AJK was talking it up as a BC trilogy of sorts one minute, and totally denying it the next. Probably because they realized not a lot of people were interested in that. In fact, those 3 episodes showed who the leader of the group is when Oliver is not around: Felicity. Remember the framing of her seated in her chair flanked by Roy, Laurel and Digg, all standing, while facing off against Malcolm? 

I LOVED that scene of Felicity in the center while Roy Diggle and Laurel were around her with Malcolm talking directly to her lol I was Like YAAAASSSS Queen!

[way2interested]

4 minutes ago, kismet said:

In a way, because if FS was a typical damsel/fridged then they would have easy stories to write. The writers rely heavily on tropes and cliches, so because Dig & FS defy they their little boxes, the writers are out of quality storylines for them. Hence, the fact that they wrap up all their interesting plots within an episode or give it to another character. Also, as a result the writers spend more time on the newbies, or stick the OGs on baby-sitting duties.

Alright, I can see where you're coming from. Agree to only partially degree (5b didn't really do that, etc.), I just didn't get the racial or sexual implication of it. Bad writing is just bad writing, it doesn't matter which character they're writing for.

4 minutes ago, kismet said:

Personally, I do not think that there are no more good stories for Dig & FS,

Yep, 6a and 6b looks like they might have them, even if the separation from others is annoying so far.

Edited October 24, 2017 by way2interested

[kismet]

2 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Cliche plots yes but why mention race or gender in it?

Because if they were white men, the writers would leave no stone unturned. They would continue to write and find plot for the character. They would delve into the story and characterizations. But they can just put Dig & FS on a shelf because they have other POCs & females to write stories for. It's almost like they are interchangeable in the writers' minds. They only have a limited number of plots available.

It's just my personal opinion, I feel like the writers dismiss/trivialize FS & Dig's stories because of their gender & race. It would honestly just make me too sad and even more bitter to list examples. But I think there are concrete supporting evidence to race and gender impacting the deficits in FS & Dig's plots. However, we are allowed our opinions, so if you disagree that is ok too.

[kismet]

10 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yep, 6a and 6b looks like they might have them, even if the separation from others is annoying so far.

I've been burnt by the Arrow writers for too many seasons. I don't trust them anymore. Nor do I appreciate how they ruined a show I used to love. They set false promises, hopes and traps for s4 & s5. I will not be tuning into s6 to get hurt again. I hope they have good stories for Dig & FS, I just don't believe that they do.

[Mellowyellow]

I have long since accepted that this show is not exactly quality viewing. After all they let that hack Bamford and his demented camera angles direct a bunch of episodes so I think that says a lot about the quality of the show. Not to mention the re used sets, dubious acting by certain parties who shall remain unnamed and story lines that seem to be less thought out than your average fanfic. 

That said it does on occasion give me some very squee worthy moments. I like half of the cast and ADORE EBR so I still get an immense amount of joy from it. I think if I were to actually expect nit picky quality I would have quit long ago. But it is extremely addictive, fandom is fun and it has given me a wonderful hobby in writing fanfic so I'm pretty satisfied for now! Plus I kinda love you guys and would miss you all if I quit!!!!! 

[Featherhat]

On ‎23‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:59 AM, Hiveminder said:

They ruined the possibility of doing BC justice from the very start when they set up the sister triangle and with every development of Laurel’s personality. Their relationship was never equal in any way, and they had no respect for each other. 

They had a tiny chance to course correct by making Sara their BC, but they blew it. 

Weeelll. no it's not Arrow or BOP or that since Sara doesn't have the name Dinah she can't *possibly* be BC, Sara as White Canary is currently leading the Legends and generally doing a good job. I would actually say that she has more respect and trust among her team than Oliver does ATM, despite the Legends constantly being the goofy fuck up show. They can turn a Canary into a leader of an ensemble team and make her a believable equal to Oliver in terms of knowledge and fighting skills. It's just they threw it away to insta Laurel and now Dinah. I know Sara's arc on Arrow had a lot of issues but being a believable BC wasn't one of them and whilst she felt omnipresent because of the flashbacks she did pop in and out of the present day doing her thing. Although that too had to be curtailed somewhat because Arrow is The Oliver of It All. 

Right now they're doing BC on auto pilot and its showing, especially in things like Quentin not even reacting to the "Dinah Drake" part etc but when they cared they made me care.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Featherhat

[kismet]

15 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

That said it does on occasion give me some very squee worthy moments. I like half of the cast and ADORE EBR so I still get an immense amount of joy from it. I think if I were to actually expect nit picky quality I would have quit long ago. But it is extremely addictive, fandom is fun and it has given me a wonderful hobby in writing fanfic so I'm pretty satisfied for now! Plus I kinda love you guys and would miss you all if I quit!!!!! 

I will admit that I do really miss posting and discussing here. I just can't live through another season of raging every week because the writers can't get it together, when it doesn't seem that hard to fix a lot of my concerns and issues with the show. It seems like everything they try to fix, they only make worse. And I really miss OTA, Olicity & I don't see that coming back in a way that will satisfy me.

[tv echo]

I'm a little bitter that The Flash and other Arrowverse shows will always get the benefit of learning from Arrow's mistakes. For example, here's one storyline that's now guaranteed never to happen on The Flash...

Barry runs into Patty Spivot, who's visiting friends in Central City. To his surprise, she's accompanied by a small toddler who looks just like Barry. Patty reluctantly agrees to let Barry visit his child, but only if he promises never to tell anyone that he's the father, not even Iris. Barry agrees because... reasons.  He then hides his secret child from Iris while making flash visits out of town... And so on.

Edited October 30, 2017 by tv echo

[kismet]

1 minute ago, tv echo said:

I'm a little bitter that The Flash and other Arrowverse shows will always get the benefit of learning from Arrow's mistakes. So Arrow fans have to suffer through misguided story arcs that the other shows' fans won't have to.  For example, here's one storyline that's guaranteed never to appear on The Flash...

Barry runs into Patty Spivot, who's visiting friends in Central City. To his surprise, she's accompanied by a small toddler who looks just like Barry. Patty reluctantly agrees to let Barry visit his child, but only if he promises never to tell anyone that he's the father, not even Iris. Barry agrees because... reasons.  He then hides his secret child from Iris while making flash visits out of town... And so on.

Never underestimate the Flarrowverse writers... in a few seasons who knows what the Flash writers may resort to. Perhaps Patty also left town because of a pee stick.  And we did get surprise son in the form of Wally. As for the Legends, I would not be surprised if they are tons of random offspring through the decades. Heck we already got surprise time aberration kid and convenient grandfather in the Justice League.

I think the difference being Arrow has never been good at integrating their twists into a beneficial thing for character or show development. They use it to break-up relationships and team dynamics. It is all about the shock and awe, they forget that they have to live with the aftermath and the consequences. The existence of William was never the problem with Arrow or OQ's storyline, it was how they chose to integrate his being into the show. Flash & LoT have found a way to integrate their shocking !!surprise offspring!! into decent character development. Arrow chose to go BMD route, like firefighters deciding to wear kerosene as perfume.

It could be that the other writing groups have learned from Arrow's mistakes. But I also think the showrunners influence a lot. MG has always gone for "game-changing" twists over logical, genuine or organic choices. He's all about the sizzle and often forgets the substance. Perhaps the other writers have showrunners that look beyond just OMG that would be such a crazy twist. MG also seems to live in the moment of the decision, I don't feel like he has a lot of people around him that look at the long view or encourage him beyond the here & now.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I'm a little bitter that The Flash and other Arrowverse shows will always get the benefit of learning from Arrow's mistakes. For example, here's one storyline that's now guaranteed never to happen on The Flash...

Barry runs into Patty Spivot, who's visiting friends in Central City. To his surprise, she's accompanied by a small toddler who looks just like Barry. Patty reluctantly agrees to let Barry visit his child, but only if he promises never to tell anyone that he's the father, not even Iris. Barry agrees because... reasons.  He then hides his secret child from Iris while making flash visits out of town... And so on.

I don't watch The Flash apart from when characters I care about cross over, but given the amount of times I've read about them following Arrow's story beats in Mind Your Surroundings, I wouldn't say this is completely out of the question at some point.

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 hours ago, WindofChange said:

I'm not really a fan of putting them in a lose-lose situations. If OTB start doing more in the field to show their usefulness people will complain about how they're taking away from OTA, if they don't do anything other than fight more minions then they're useless.

At least this way we can see OTA team up like we wanted and OTB can actually prove their usefulness. 

This is an instance where I'd rather Arrow tells rather than show so OTB doesn't take away from OTA. Just have somebody say all the noobs are out patrolling the city, then I can have all the OTA moments without the noobs. 

[kismet]

The problem with the noobs is that they bring nothing to the table. They are just masks and paper-doll personalities. I don't need to actually see them fighting in the field. I would be content with them spending their entire time offscreen. Last season just about every scene with or about the noobs was a waste of time I assume the same thing is happening this season. So it's not about their usefulness to me. It's about the fact that they just aren't interesting enough to warrant screentime. Anyone can be shown to be useful, it doesn't mean I want to see their journey or their adventures. OTA was amazing and interesting from their inception. Even TA in later seasons with Roy, TQ & LL while not perfect at least you were invested in the characters and it was a good team dynamic overall.

The noobs were just thrown upon us in s5 (s4 if u count Curtis) and we are some how supposed to care about characters that have no connection to the characters or the show? Sorry but I came to watch Arrow and TA, not some cheap-ass knockoff team. I get that the show is trying to expand, perhaps draw in different audiences - but they went about it all the wrong way. You don't remove the titular hero & his team again, replace it with some rando masks and expect everyone to get on board. It made no narrative sense and it lacked any type of creativity. When TA got revamped the first time in s3/s4 it made sense because OQ had stepped away and then was brought back because he was needed. It also gave characters whom we had known for 3-4 years the opportunity to step up and meet their destiny. These newer people are just substitutes or knock-offs. It's like OTA is Broadway, TA was the touring original production & Noobs are the high-school edition.

[Morrigan2575]

from Spoiler thread

I feel like I appreciate Roy more now than I did when he was on the team.

Especially considering the newbies in 609 and what I assume we'll get from them moving forward trying to form their own team.

For me it started in S2 and bloomed In S3...I hated Roy in S1.

By the time they were wrapping up his story I really was hooked and hate that he left.

This is the problem/difference between OTA/Noobs and Roy/Thea vs Noobs and, I should point out that it's a typical issue as shows age.

When shows are new they take time to develop characters, worlds, relationships as the show ages they tend to take short cuts just to get to an end point. In Arrow's case this is especially true for Masks.

With Roy we had his introduction as petty thief, then Thea's boyfriend, then Arrow Groupie, then Arsenal (and they basically took 13 episodes (212-301) before suiting him up, after developing him as a character.

With Thea, we had her introduction as bratty teen, Roy's girlfriend, maturing 'adults', training ninja and finally Speedy. They took 22 episodes before suiting her up (301-322).

Curtis actually got a similar treatment he was introduced as a size character, given a relationship with Felicity and Paul and brought in a temp tech support for a couple of missions before moving into field/mask. The problem is (for me anyways) is that they don't need him in the field or Tech Support role, so the only way to make him work is to have him overlap or steal Felicity's story/role.

Rene/Dinah were just introduced as masks, they didn't really care about Dinah's character much in S5 and her only storyline in S6 is more about Team Baddie than anything else. 

Rene got the most development of any noob in S5 but, even then he was Mask first. character 2nd.

[way2interested]

37 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

This is the problem/difference between OTA/Noobs and Roy/Thea vs Noobs and, I should point out that it's a typical issue as shows age

Yeah, even AoS seems like it's going through it's own version of this issue this year as well so it's really just a show thing more than an Arrow thing.

Part of the problem to me as well is that they seem to be more on the side of Sara/Ray over Roy/Thea where they need to push so much character for that character's plot purpose rather than trying to make the character for the long game. The thing with Sara and Ray though was that those two were always meant to be temporary and needed their own fast-tracked story/development/progression to fulfill their plot requirements and effects on the other characters in the temporary time they have, while Rene and Dinah (and to an extent Curtis with regards how the character was reintroduced in s5) were introduced in the same fashion but with no indications that they'll be leaving. In their case the fast track of progression and story/room for growth doesn't match characters who are intended to be around for the rest of the series.  One of the reasons Rory did work is because he was that temporary character, so this fast track and basic stabilization of his character right before he leaves felt basically familiar.

The newbies are just randomly on a balance of permanent characters with a temporary character set-up (like between a rock and a hard place), so too much highlighting on them at once feels weird since they're around for the long run and should be a slow burn of a plot and too little doesn't help people care about them. And to make matters worse now the plot is basically putting them into a bad position of possibly asking the audience to sympathize with them quitting the team over the older characters.  

Edited December 12, 2017 by way2interested

[tangerine95]

That might also be because they weren't planing on these characters even showing up at this point.They've had bts issues with team arrow in the sense that actors left and all that.Like I think they planned on Roy being a permanent part of the team so he got the slow development and introduction to the team or planned on Thea eventually becoming Speedy so she got the slow development too but then CH left and there's clearly something bts with WH getting a reduced episode count.So now they have to introduce characters to be part of the team this late in the shows run and they likely are told which masks to include because higher ups want those masks visible and it's kind of a mess.But I think that's also on them not knowing how to handle it and deciding pushing them down people's throats is the way to go.As well as insisting on storylines that are basically the newbies rejecting the sidekick role and wanting to be equals to characters and dynamics that have been around much longer which makes no sense.

Edited December 12, 2017 by tangerine95

[SmallScreenDiva]

ITA with the points mentioned above. Also, when the new masks were dumped on Arrow at the beginning of S5, Diggle was essentially sidelined. That lame-ass arc of paying for him killing his brother and being in jail/prison was essentially a way to keep him out of the team. Shades of Oliver being sidelined for the "rise of the Black Canary" arc for Laurel back in S3. When Arrow does that, my inclination is to be resentful of the characters who I feel are being shoved down my throat at the expense of characters I love. (Same deal played out for Felicity at a lesser extent in S2 with Sara's inclusion in the team, IMO)

Edited December 12, 2017 by SmallScreenDiva

[kismet]

I do agree that BTS casting departures or reductions have contributed to the Noobs/Masks problems. Because perhaps it was supposed to be Roy & Thea that were head of the new team. However, I do think the writers & TPTB failed on multiple levels to integrate or develop the newer characters starting with Curtis. So while I can understand that perhaps the plans they laid in place with Roy and Thea fell apart for reasons out of their control. The failure of Noobs/masks is completely within their control and their responsibility.

The Arrow writers & TPTB know exactly how many episodes they are given per season to write a quality story arc with quality character development. They have failed to achieve that for multiple characters and for multiple seasons. The writers consistently choose to take short cuts and focus more on sparkle than substance. It's evident that the show's definition of quality is not based in or concerned with good characters or character development. The show detoured from Character driven storytelling in s3, it became a permanent change in s4 and has only worsened over the last 2 seasons. It's a shame, because I think the show has a lot of potential that is squandered for cheap and unfulfilling plots.

[tennisgurl]

There are many issues with the newbies, but I think a big issue is that, as others have said, they just haven't been integrated into the team/show very well. As even the characters have said, there is so clearly a difference between the ordinal team, and the newbies.  I dont get why, if they really wanted to commit to these characters, they made them such an obvious B Team, even after they'd been around for awhile. They needed to mix them with the regular cast more, or give them more distinct arcs. Really, the only person who has had a real arc is Rene, and that arc has been pretty inconsistent. He finally was starting to mature, and he betrays the team and then acts like an asshole about it.  With most of the Arrowverse teams, when someone new joins, theres an adjustment period, but its not very long, and then they just became another team member, there usually arent tiers based on time served. Even if the newbies were a late replacement, they should have done more to make them more interesting, and more relevant to the show, and the general universe. As of now, I still have no idea why they're even here. Even when I like them, they arent anything special, either in the show, or in the franchise. I think they could be, but it hasn't really happened yet. Maybe thats why I liked Ragman so much. He actually had a unique personality/powers/backstory, and he had an emotional connection to the the cast, and wasn't just awkwardly asked to join the team just because they needed people. Or just because he was awesome. 

Ironically, the most I felt like the whole of Team Arrow was on the same page was during the Olicity wedding reception, and while that was going on, Rene had already turned against Oliver to the FBI, Dinah was keeping her crazy ex boyfriend a secret, and they would all storm off in a huff in just a few days over some crap that, on any other team, would have probably have had the reaction of "oh, you were listening? Did I say anything weird?" I dont think thats going to do much to make the newbies a part of the team, or endear them to the audience. 

[tangerine95]

It probably would have gone over better if season 5 didn't introduce so many of them so fast.I mean there was Curtis(who was a newbie to the team and a different much more annoying character all of a sudden),Evelyn,Rene,Rory and Dinah.Just a crazy amount of newbies and they kept most of them.I don't think it's going to work,at least for me if they don't find a unique role for them because they're all doing the same thing rn.Curtis I think is hopeless and the most unnecessary.His skills are basically what Felicity does and he's done nothing but take away from her skills,his fighting isn't that great either and team arrow doesn't need a hardware guy on a regular basis which is why he barely ever deals with that.He actually had a unique role working with Felicity because we don't have a lot of people on the outside of the team who aren't masks and it makes the world of the show feel small.

With Dinah I guess being a meta is unique so she has that but it's not something arrow should really have imo.But I was hoping a unique thing for her can be finally including some female friendships on the show and she could have bonded with Felicity.Instead they stick her with Digg to basically have the same conversation every episode of season 6 so far.

Rene has potential when he's not being an asshole and he could be the more traditional sidekick role and someone Oliver can sort of mentor.He does come a across as more annoying version of season 2 Roy.

Edited December 13, 2017 by tangerine95

[ladylaw99]

All this talk of BS redemption puts a bad taste in my mouth.

This is exactly what I was worried about back when I found out she was going to be a regular.  Aside from the fact that I don't like KC acting, I don't think these writers are capable enough to write a good redemption story for her fans.  As it is the story is so terrible and it is at Paul Blackthorne's expense. 

I don't understand why people can so easily forget all the people BS has killed without regret and no, I don't believe she had no choice to kill Vince, she could have just as easily killed Cayden James instead or huff and puff to blow him away if she was starting to feel remorse.

I hate the fact Quinton looks so pathetic.  Anyone who has lost a child would do anything to bring that child back but I would never disrespect the memory of my child because someone looked like him (they are not the same person) and I would never try to associate my child with a killer.

[apinknightmare]

No, I don't think it matters. 

One thing that does make me laugh on the rare occasion I visit reddit is how many people I see who want BS to be redeemed and say the amount of killing she's done and her taking pleasure in doing it don't matter - she can still be redeemed! But some of those same people think Felicity should be punished (and in some cases even killed) for Havenrock, even though she wasn't the one who set off the nukes, and did the only thing she could think of to divert the nuke from hitting a major population center. So, killing by choice = totally redeemable, and people dying as a result of you trying to keep more people from dying because of a nuke someone else set off = she must be punished/die for it! LOL

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

So killing by choice = totally redeemable, and people dying as a result of you trying to keep more people from dying because of a nuke someone else set off = she must be punished/die for it! LOL

Technically true, Felicity can't be redeemed because she hasn't done that she need's to be redeemed for. But that's not at all what they meant.

[Featherhat]

According to some Felicity is the most villainous person on 53 Earths and her relationship is Oliver is worse and more toxic than his with Laurel, every girl he cheated on her with, Samantha, Helena ans Susan combined because she's a non comic character who has the gall to argue with Oliver sometimes.

[lemotomato]

According to those people, Felicity sticking up for herself = "She abuses Oliver!" Of course, they also think it's romantic and true love that Laurel still calls Oliver the love of her life after he cheated on her and impregnated a friend of hers , cheated on her with her sister, lied to her face repeatedly for 2 years about his vigilante activities, chose to date her sister instead of her, chose to date and propose to another woman instead of her. And that even though Oliver did all these things, he was actually deep in his heart still in love with Laurel the whole time.

Edited February 7, 2018 by lemotomato

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

According to some Felicity is the most villainous person on 53 Earths and her relationship is Oliver is worse and more toxic than his with Laurel, every girl he cheated on her with, Samantha, Helena ans Susan combined because she's a non comic character who has the gall to argue with Oliver sometimes.

But she is--a comic character. Not a main "hero" one, but Felicity Smoak is a comic character. I think in comics, she's connected to Firestorm, I think.

[Featherhat]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But she is--a comic character. Not a main "hero" one, but Felicity Smoak is a comic character. I think in comics, she's connected to Firestorm, I think.

She was married to Ronnie's father at one point so she would be Robbie Amell's stepmother and Caitlin's stepmother in law! But anything other than that or stepping out of her 'funny nerd' box is an absolute  no no.

[Starfish35]

11 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

According to those people, Felicity sticking up for herself = "She abuses Oliver!"

Ugh.  "Felicity is abusive to Oliver" is one of the stupidest things in this fandom, IMO.  :(

[SmallScreenDiva]

That and calling Olicity toxic and comparing it with LOLiver. For real?

I think sometimes we forget that a lot of people in this fandom, even the ones on Reddit, are pretty young. I do, anyway. They may not have had real, adult relationships yet and they think "hurt" or angst equals abuse. Otherwise, it's just so sad to think that they can't pick up the difference. 

[BunsenBurner]

I am bitter that Thea probably inherited Malcolm Merlyn’s wealth yet was a petulant brat and wouldn’t sign the papers so Oliver lost everything. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

12 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

I am bitter that Thea probably inherited Malcolm Merlyn’s wealth yet was a petulant brat and wouldn’t sign the papers so Oliver lost everything. 

I'm bitter that Oliver lost everything and yet it's not really something that was really addressed on the show. I mean, he lost his wealth in S2, seemed like he mooched off his kid sister in S3, mooched off his girlfriend in S4, finally got a job in S5 ... I just wanna know who pays the bills at the bunker! 

Apparently, the new Arrow novel has Felicity saying she's about to run out of money ... I'd love for Arrow to address that on the show but of course, it's not going to. Can't be bothered. Because according to Guggenheim, if they're doing their jobs right, we the audience are not supposed to think about stuff like this. Idiots. 

Edited February 11, 2018 by SmallScreenDiva
because write and right are two different things, doh!

[kes0704]

In 402 Oliver said that Felicity had inherited Palmer Tech from Ray so wouldn’t she have owned the company or at least been a major shareholder, not just been employed as CEO?  If she had a major stake in the company why did she only end up with a severance package?  Did the Board buy out all of her shares?  

Fans only question things because the show tells us one thing in one episode and then something different in another episode. That’s probably why Marc prefers fans skip the details, that way we might not see all of the plot holes and inconsistencies from season to season and episode to episode.  

[JamieLynn832002]

That has always driven me crazy, in addition to Oliver's words, we also saw Ray have her sign transfer of ownership papers near the end of S3 and on LoT Star City 2046 he says she must have changed it to Smoak Technologies after he disappeared. By all appearances Felicity owned PT (or should have) but the board never treated her like she did. It doesn't make sense.

[tv echo]

The LoT "Star City 2046" episode confuses me. I thought that alternate future disappeared when the Legends defeated Vandal Savage and returned to Earth-1. Yet DR keeps talking about his son JJ becoming Green Arrow in the future. And I keep reading about how Felicity's company has to be named Smoak Technologies at some point.

Edited February 11, 2018 by tv echo

[bijoux]

Diggle seems kinda focused on the hood out of the blue this year, so it could be that playing into it. However, I think both those things can happen without that 2046 becoming their 2046. Felicity has been building her company this whole season and there’s no reason for that or a new venture not to be called Smoak Tech. And my personal view has always been that the GA mantle is something that should be passed on. I love the idea of Dig’s kid inheriting it because it reinforces the familial bond between him and Oliver. Naturally, I would have loved it that much more if that kid was Sara Diggle, but that’s a gripe for another day or ten.

[DeadZeus]

I don't really like how the show takes villains away from Oliver.

I mean, when Black Siren was introduced it struck a cord with Oliver cuz you know... It's Laurel.

However as time went on BS became a Lance and Dinah thing and almost through this entire season Oliver had nothing to do with anything related to BS. He's totally cut off from her story. Even though it's Laurel... Someone who was the most important person in his life for a loong time.

Same with Vigilante. He crossed paths multiple times with him in S5. But he also moved away from Oliver's story line to someone else having barely a connection to Oliver anymore. I really thought they deserved another proper fight.

Last season this annoyed the crap out of me with Talia.. She was Oliver's teacher, the one who made him put on the hood... But she stops being Oliver's Villain and Nyssa takes care of her.. And we get no student/mentor closure.. I wanted Oliver to kick her ass, why did Nyssa have to get involved for 1 measly episode?

I get that other characters need villain too.. But i hate that they start with a connetion to Oliver and then get moved to someone else resulting in unresolved battles IMO.

[apinknightmare]

I like what they’ve taken the “if there’s a little bit of Laurel in her I’m going to find it” from Oliver and given it to Quentin. I get there being some conflict because the two Laurels look the same, but that should be over fairly quickly. Treating them like they’re the same and Laurel is replaceable with her doppelgänger is so gross. So if someone’s going to be a boneheaded moron whose mental health I have to question, I’d rather it be Quentin than Oliver. 

[insomniadreams88]

I’m too bitter about them making Cayden James Oliver’s villain to really care about the others. Also bitter we didn’t get another Felicity/Cayden scene before his death. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I like that the show has largely kept away BS from Oliver but I do agree that things that would have gone to him have been given to Dinah, which just annoys the fuck out of me because she's not a co-lead at all and yet it feels like she's being given all these things without earning them. But I guess because BC (Black Canary/because comics) no one is screaming Dinah and Friends. I feel this is what's eventually gonna drive me from the show. That it's no longer Oliver's.

Did the EPs ever talk about Cayden as Felicity nemesis or is that something we just assumed because she broke him out last year and because hacker/hacker? Because that's another villain that got shifted ... not from Oliver but TO Oliver. Felicity had 1 scene with him face to face and 1 hackoff with him.

[Featherhat]

25 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

I get that other characters need villain too.. But i hate that they start with a connetion to Oliver and then get moved to someone else resulting in unresolved battles IMO.

Or in the case of Caden James, start off as a Felicity villain/plot point and move decisively to Oliver with the Myson stuff and Felicity never had another scene with him before his death. Bitter. 

I do understand your point and I do agree about Vigilante it didn't really make sense to connect him to Dinah, especially as he was set up in Star City well before she was, but I guess they needed to give the new BC! something to do to prove she's awesome and a reason to be a giant hypocrite leave the team.  

25 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

I mean, when Black Siren was introduced it struck a cord with Oliver cuz you know... It's Laurel.

However as time went on BS became a Lance and Dinah thing and almost through this entire season Oliver had nothing to do with anything related to BS. He's totally cut off from her story. Even though it's Laurel... Someone who was the most important person in his life for a loong time.

To be honest, the show hasn't been about "because it's Laurel" since season 2 really, except when she died. Since that's been Lance's entire storyline for 6 seasons on the show and KC has her best scenes with him and they had the most emotional bond left on the show I can see why they went with him. Otherwise PB would have no reason to keep hanging around. I agree about Dinah, but they couldn't resist having BC vs BS battle it out and making meta comments about taking over her life etc. 

Oliver might end up being more involved in the back half. He did care when he thought it was E1LL in 5.10 but he's not exactly sentimental about doppelgangers at the moment. And I really don't think Laurel was ever the most important person in his life, even when he "loved" her or when she was a talisman on the Island. I think for a long time that went to Thea and on the Island more practical people under intense circumstances like Shado and Slade. 

25 minutes ago, DeadZeus said:

Last season this annoyed the crap out of me with Talia.. She was Oliver's teacher, the one who made him put on the hood... But she stops being Oliver's Villain and Nyssa takes care of her.. And we get no student/mentor closure.. I wanted Oliver to kick her ass, why did Nyssa have to get involved for 1 measly episode?

Nyssa's always been a more important part of Arrow than Talia, and the Talia parts last season were fairly poorly written and IMHO felt like a "yay, they finally let us use Talia, quick we'll make her yet another teacher for Oliver!!" retcon than anything that felt more organic like Yao Fei, Slade or even Waller. I didn't mind Nyssa fighting her sister, it made up for when Oliver had to be the one to beat Malcolm for Nyssa because it's his show, rather than being able to do it herself because she's been sword fighting since before Malcolm ever did, let alone Oliver. Oliver had more than enough going on with Chase both mentally and physically and Talia ended up being a rather minor character, although she could show up again.  

Edited February 11, 2018 by Featherhat

[kes0704]

22 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Did the EPs ever talk about Cayden as Felicity nemesis or is that something we just assumed because she broke him out last year and because hacker/hacker? Because that's another villain that got shifted ... not from Oliver but TO Oliver. Felicity had 1 scene with him face to face and 1 hackoff with him.

Pre-season or early season Wendy said in an interview that Cayden was a villain for both Oliver and Felicity.  

By saying that it created an expectation for me that Felicity would have a larger role to play in his villain plan.  (I know I shouldn’t take her interviews literally).

None of the S5 Helix / ARGUS breakout meant anything after his motivation was revealed to be a dead son plot that related solely to Oliver.

[Primal Slayer]

I'm just pissed that this group of villains had SUCH potential! And it was wasted. We didn't get to see any of them do any real team ups, they had all of 2 scenes together, maybe 1 line towards one another. 6x10 should've been their big episode where they are the focus, we learn why they are working together, how they work as a team, etc...Cayden/Siren should've had a much bigger bond that would parallel with her and Quentin. 

[tennisgurl]

I feel like they are keeping Quentin and his Oliver away from each other during this whole "Quentin reenacts Misery on this serial killer who looks like his dead daughter" story because Oliver has already met doubles from other Earths who are NOTHING like their Earth 1 counterparts, and has learned that theres no point in treating them like the same person. Hell, Oliver killed his Earth X counterpart without a second look, and we have also met evil versions of Kara, Barry, Cisco, Caitlin, Ronnie, and, yes, Quentin himself. Would he be so quick to think that BS could still be like Laurel if he knew about his evil Nazi counterpart running around in Earth X? I think that most people have have tangled with the multiverse would be smarter than this, and thats why I think Thea and Quentin are stuck in their own little plot thread away from everyone else. Neither of them have met doubles from other Earths, so they dont have quite the same context. Or else, the audience couldn't even get close to buying this crap. Granted, I dont buy this either, but at least it isn't Oliver, who doing this BS obsession would be even MORE out of character. 

I dont like being irritated at Quentin, why does the show keep forcing me to be irritated with Quentin!?

[Primal Slayer]

Like you said, Oliver has met a doppelganger that is NOTHING like their E1 counterpart but as we learned, Black Siren was like her E1 counterpart up until the age of 13 which I think is a big deal to Quentin. But at least they had Quentin acknowledge that he knows this isnt his daughter, but he does think she can be a better version of herself. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

as we learned, Black Siren was like her E1 counterpart up until the age of 13 which I think is a big deal to Quentin. But at least they had Quentin acknowledge that he knows this isnt his daughter, but he does think she can be a better version of herself. 

Everything we know about BS came from BS. So they could always say she was lying if it turns out BS is trying to manipulate Lance. 

Also, I feel like they have Lance acknowledge BS isn’t his daughter and then later in the same scene or same episode act like BS is his daughter. It’s messy. 

If they really wanted to do this storyline - Lance redeeming BS - they could/should have done a better job with it from at least 522 or 601. Starting the season off with her blowing up the police station and killing cops was not the way to go. 

[Primal Slayer]

They could have her lying but I think they've gone to far with this storyline to have her lying about it.

Yeah they've definitely been messy with the first half of the season and dealing with her.

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

They could have her lying but I think they've gone to far with this storyline to have her lying about it.

Last year when she was imprisoned and had alone time with Oliver she told him her sad story about how she lost her Oliver and how that changed her life. This season when she was alone with Lance she suddenly has a story about how she lost her Lance, and how that changed her life. Interesting how she's suddenly soft when she's around people she knows she can manipulate, but when she's around, say, Felicity, she's sneering stuff like "I love hearing my victims scream". Or drop kicking Thea.

Edited February 12, 2018 by lemotomato

[Featherhat]

Hmm, I guess it could go either way re the lying. It's possible she's lying through her teeth to both Oliver and Quentin about her life circumstances to manipulate and get what she wants, it's possible both of her stories are true, although that doesn't excuse the way she's a gleeful murderer now and shouldn't make redemption anymore likely because most villains have awful backstories and so do pretty much every single one of the heroes in this franchise. 

I'm not sure the writers care enough to have it actually make sense. If they want to "redeem" her they will if they don't, they won't, because yeah it's messy as hell. I guess they could sell Lance's flip flopping as deep down knowing it isn't really his Laurel but too desperate to care. I don't think they're even thinking of BS in relation to Oliver or what she said to Oliver right now, because it's all about Lance right now. If Oliver and BS interact, her past with E2!Ollie might come back into play, but even then Oliver killed his Nazi! Doppelganger and I could have seen a situation where he actually did kill Nazi!Kara in that scene in the crossover, even though he likes 38!Kara. 

4 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

If they really wanted to do this storyline - Lance redeeming BS - they could/should have done a better job with it from at least 522 or 601. Starting the season off with her blowing up the police station and killing cops was not the way to go. 

No kidding. 

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I'm just pissed that this group of villains had SUCH potential! And it was wasted. We didn't get to see any of them do any real team ups, they had all of 2 scenes together, maybe 1 line towards one another. 6x10 should've been their big episode where they are the focus, we learn why they are working together, how they work as a team, etc...Cayden/Siren should've had a much bigger bond that would parallel with her and Quentin. 

I agree with this. If they wanted Team Villain to parallel Team Arrow, they needed to do this episode ala LOD (as everyone is tired of me commenting on I'm sure) to really gel the team up as a threat. They could still have had DDDragon turn on CJ and maybe add another player later on, but as it stands we have no idea why they even bothered to team up except money and CJ shouldn't have actually needed the thuggish ones to do what he ended up doing in the first place. It's possible there will be more of them now the "SHOCKING!TWIST!" has been revealed but we haven't heard anything about it yet. I guess we didn't get deep into Chase's motivations until the last 3rd of the season. 

[Primal Slayer]

9 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Last year when she was imprisoned and had alone time with Oliver she told him her sad story about how she lost her Oliver and how that changed her life. This season when she was alone with Lance she suddenly has a story about how she lost her Lance, and how that changed her life. Interesting how she's suddenly soft when she's around people she knows she can manipulate, but when she's around, say, Felicity, she's sneering stuff like "I love hearing my victims scream". Or drop kicking Thea.

Quentin and Oliver weren't coming at her. She didn't automatically fight Thea. She tried the "peaceful " way then did what she had to do to get her prey. And she doesn't seem to have any kind of relationship with E2 Felicity so she could care less about her.

Losing Quentin would've had a tremendous impact on her life as a 13 yr old, same with losing her love later in life to really push her even further down into the darkness.

[calliope1975]

BS may have a tragic backstory, but so do a lot of people. A lot of heroes have horrible backstories. It doesn't negate her joy at murdering random people. She doesn't even have the 'they were bad people' argument that Oliver has. Any redemption would have to come with a whole helluva lot of punishment as well, and being kidnapped by a deranged QL doesn't count. 

To quote the great Jake Peralta:

[tennisgurl]

I think Black Siren could have been redeemed at some point, and if Quentin got involved, it would have been fine. But, they've gone so hard on making her so awful and murderous, to the point of coming across as a particularly sadistic serial killer (as opposed to, say, Nyssa or Deadshot, who were also bad guys who found some redemption, who came across as immoral and maybe unstable, but not deranged and delighting in death), it makes her possible redemption pretty hard to swallow. Even her sad back story, of her Quentin dying when she was 13, is certainly sad, but not so sad that it totally excuses becoming such a monster later on. If they do redeem her, they need to make it HER choice, and not Quentin literally kidnapping her to force her into becoming good. Its fine to tell a bad person that they have potential to be better (Barry and Kara practically have scripts* for this) but you cant FORCE a person to become good, and you really cant force someone to become your dead daughter. Its just such a lame, half assed plot, and if BS does become redeemed after this, its going to feel very unearned. 

*Barry and Kara have had some success in nudging some of their less nasty bad guys towards the side of good, BUT it also seems to have the downside of the bad guy turned good dying pretty soon after. So why not have Black Siren die to save Quentin or somebody, and we can call it a day?