Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Sunshine]

I should have been more prepared for what was coming when I heard/read pre-season SA refer to Arrow as a comic book show.  He resisted that description for years.      

[rtalive]

On 11/6/2016 at 5:27 AM, statsgirl said:

They've done a major job on the female characters in general on the show.  For the third season in a row, Thea's storyline is about being someone's daughter, or replacement daughter in Quentin's case, and now she also gets to be someone's sister and run the mayor's office for him.  They added six new characters in the present, seven if you count Curtis, and only one is female, and her purpose seems to be entirely to provide someone for Wild Dog to to tell his POV to.  If you missed Canary Cry last season, you wouldn't know why she even wants to be a vigilante.  In the flashbacks, there are no female characters at all.

This has become a show for the comic book bros.  I'm not surprised women directors don't want to work on it.

You are right. There are a lot of dudes in this show now. But this is even more prevalent in the crossover promotions. So many dudes ;)!

I am hoping Arrow will add more female characters and develop them more. I hope they will give Thea and Felicity their arc stories in future episodes, like they gave Diggle.

I hope we will find more about Artemis and see more of Susan Williams investigations.

And I can't wait for Talia al Gul and the other teased female character.

[doesntworkonwood]

I think the frustrating thing is that Oliver's story is tied intrinsically into his interactions with the women in the show. Like obviously, Oliver is a guy and the show is about a guy, but most of his major relationships have been with women (Laurel, Moira, Thea, Felicity). His character growth is tied to women (how he treated Laurel in the past, admitting he's the Arrow to Thea, falling in love with Felicity), and yet these women aren't allowed to be... women. The show places a massive amount of importance on these characters (through Oliver's relationships with them), but then doesn't really follow through with them as characters in their own right. They're not even allowed to acknowledge each other most of the time. It's a really weird writing choice, and it shows how much TIIC actually know about writing women. 

[statsgirl]

I think it also speaks to how little they value women as independent actors as opposed to what they can bring to the stories of the male characters.  Kevin Smith slipped up and spoke the real sentiment when he said that Iris's importance is being Barry's spine rather than as a person in her own right, just as double MA Felicity being unemployed doesn't matter as long as she can help Oliver and bring a boyfriend into the show as a red herring.

[tv echo]

The other day I was talking to some friends, who are casual Arrow viewers - meaning, they record the show and watch when they can, don't follow news about the show, don't care about spoilers, and don't care who Oliver is romancing or not. However, even they noticed the significant change in Oliver & Felicity's relationship this season. One friend found it "jarring" how the show reset the relationship without any explanation. Another friend found it "odd" that Oliver & Felicity now act like they were never engaged.

Edited November 27, 2016 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

I'm adding a new word to my dictionary.  "To Iris" defn: to have no storyline other than to aid the men in your life:

E.g.  Both Thea and Felicity were Irised this season.

[popgoesculture]

I had hopes that the crossover would bring the show back to me, but it seems like confirmation that the show is going in a direction I'm not interested in. Why bother writing a show that doesn't utilize the chemistry of your cast? Why erase the story lines of the women of the show? Why not get rid of them entirely and let the actors explore other projects rather than keep them to the periphery? 

I'm just frustrated. I think Felicity is a huge part of the show, and yet her appearance in the 100th episode was overshadowed and overwritten by the various men on the show. She could've not been there and there would be no difference whatsoever. Do the writers and EPs truly not see what they're doing?

[statsgirl]

I can see how MG would think they had done Felicity justice.  After all , she had a fair number of lines.  It's just what the lines were.  From the Invasion episode thread:

On 2016-12-01 at 5:28 AM, doesntworkonwood said:

I was really disappointed with the writing of Felicity this episode. She didn't get to do anything, or even say anything. I'm pretty sure Wild Dong got more lines that her (mostly because all of her lines were interrupted). Felicity is the reason that I've watched the show for 100 episodes, so whilst I really enjoyed Moira, the fact that show not only didn't celebrate Felicity, but minimised her role in the real world, means that it didn't work as a 100th episode for me. I think it focused too much on what the show had without celebrating what the show has got. I think it would have been much more interesting if Oliver actually wanted to go back to the real world, not because of obligation, but because he's actually happy there. 

 

On 2016-12-01 at 7:26 AM, AD35 said:

 When the Smoak Technology sign appeared at first I thought Felicity had found a way to hack into whatever system that had Oliver and company in a hallucinatory state.

I swear the Felicity on Arrow has lost 80 IQ points this season (the one on The Flash and LoT is much better).  MG appears to have no clue why she's popular.

For me, Felicity is the only relatable hero/role model on the show.  A kid watching is probably never going to fight well enough to don leather and a mask and go out and beat up bad guys but he or she can learn code or engineering or become a CEO who provides a biochip at an affordable price that can change lives and the EPs have no clue how important that is.

[tv echo]

Humming...

"I never did mind about the little things."
(Point of No Return, 1993)

[rtalive]

On 12/1/2016 at 7:39 AM, popgoesculture said:

I had hopes that the crossover would bring the show back to me, but it seems like confirmation that the show is going in a direction I'm not interested in. Why bother writing a show that doesn't utilize the chemistry of your cast? Why erase the story lines of the women of the show? Why not get rid of them entirely and let the actors explore other projects rather than keep them to the periphery? 

I'm just frustrated. I think Felicity is a huge part of the show, and yet her appearance in the 100th episode was overshadowed and overwritten by the various men on the show. She could've not been there and there would be no difference whatsoever. Do the writers and EPs truly not see what they're doing?

You know I was quite disappointed by the crossover too, in regards of the female characters' screen time. So we had no Felicity/Kara interaction, no Sara/Kara interaction, Vixen was not introduced to Oliver and Barry at all. Sara - an old friend to all the Arrow characters, had no welcome scene and only a brief goodbye scene with Oliver, which was the only interaction she had with someone outside her Legends team(the dream world doesn't count). We had too much bromance scenes and it wouldn't hurt if they showed the girls  - Thea, Sara, Felicity, Kara, Vixen also share a drink and talk about the crazy experience.

Sara Lance, who was promoted to a leader of the Legends, was treated like she is not one in the crossover, and instead we had the hypocrisy of everybody backing up Barry, who screwed up majorly, but because he is the main male hero, he is supposed to do no wrong.

Oliver acted to Kara like a kid, but in the end she saved his life and had to prop up his ego.

Felicity had a scenes with Cisco to comfort his drama with Barry, which was not supposed to be on Legends episode at all, not to mention on a crossover. Why not Cisco comforting Felicity about her bigger problems for a change.

Not to mention how bad they treat the ladies on Flash .

[Hiveminder]

On 11/27/2016 at 8:44 AM, tv echo said:

The other day I was talking to some friends, who are casual Arrow viewers - meaning, they record the show and watch when they can, don't follow news about the show, don't care about spoilers, and don't care who Oliver is romancing or not. However, even they noticed the significant change in Oliver & Felicity's relationship this season. One friend found it "jarring" how the show reset the relationship without any explanation. Another friend found it "odd" that Oliver & Felicity now act like they were never engaged.

It makes me so frustrated that they wouldn't even have had to change much to tell the same story they're telling now without keeping Oliver and Felicity apart.  I get that the writers screwed up last season by pushing fast forward on Olicity, but they didn't have to do a reset to fix it. Have them married but needing to work through their issues, or putting their engagement on hold while they figure their stuff. Hell, have them living apart, but still together and working on their relationship. It's great if two people have fully realized themselves and dealt with all of their issues before getting together, but also unrealistic. Most people have to grow and mature while being in a relationship.  

Malone could have been Thea's boyfriend. If they really needed a Felicity connection he could have been her cousin, or her freaking long lost BFF from childhood. Or here's an idea. He could have been a cop that Oliver meets through the ACU and builds a friendship with, and then his being tricked into killing Billy would still reinforce the I ruin everyone's lives guilt trip without having Oliver appropriate someone else's pain for his own life lesson. 

The biggest changes would have to be with lady reporter, but they could have made it work. Obviously, I don't know what they have planned for her, but with what we know so far she could have been Felicity's friend *gasp*, who becomes suspicious of her friend's husband (who sometimes acts a little shady and who her friend is having relationship issues with) and starts to investigate him. There's even room in that scenario to make her a bad guy if they need to. 

[popgoesculture]

I haven't watched this week's episode and don't plan to mainly because even just reading about it depresses me. 

But it's weird to realize that a year ago, Felicity and Oliver had just gotten engaged, and she was shot and paralyzed. What a wildly different show. It's like none of that EVER happened as it has no bearing whatsoever on present day actions. I can't think of another show that erases its past so entirely. 

What's the point of a show (particularly a drama) that resets itself every season, rather than building on things? The show doesn't want me to be invested, and they succeeded. They've literally broken almost every good thing about the show (and let's face it, Arrow was never particularly amazing, but it was fun and for a brief time, exciting to watch). 

[Sasha]

What a difference a year makes. Dark Waters was the last episode I really enjoyed. I didn't know how I would get through the winter break. Then it all turned to shit. I can't believe we're nine episodes into season five. I no longer watch live, fast forward through half the show and then delete. 

I thought about grading the seasons. B, A, C, D (BMD trashed everything) and now we have fallen to a big fat F for season 5. It's such a shame. I really miss Arrow. We had some good times but then it got ugly. BMD caused a nasty break up but I had hoped with a little time we could still be friends. Now you've changed so much and I don't like who you've become. I think it's time to move on. 

[kismet]

SO I'm behind a few episodes, frankly I forget how many... but looking at the red titles from the episode threads inspired me to put down my current thoughts on Arrow. Surprisingly (ok not surprisingly) they fit most in the beloved bitterness thread.

Legacy – Something I thought Arrow was building, but has squandered on WWLD & boring newbies

The Recruits – Not everybody makes the cut even in a rebuilding year

A Matter of Trust – well there is the big one, since I have lost ALL trust with these writers

Penance – I’m waiting writers…

Human Target – Was the bull-eye’s that obvious?

So it begins – my checking of the clock and moving to the door.

Vigilante – Nope, won’t be sucked in again.

Invasion – Enough Said…

What we leave behind – sadly it’s look like that might be Arrow.

[LeighAn]

Ive seen the light. Can I get a refund on my Olicity membership? :p

http://liealittlebetter.com/2016/12/03/arrow-100-oliver-laurel/

[apinknightmare]

Quote

On her deathbed Laurel told Oliver he was the love of her life. In the 100th episode of Arrow, we learn that Laurel is truly the love of his.

I mean...once he decided to leave he said goodbye to his parents and then went to fight his way out without saying goodbye to her. He only did because she ran after him, and then...he left this perfect world where she was. 

I know that's what I do with the love of my life. 

[CooperTV]

11 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Ive seen the light. Can I get a refund on my Olicity membership? :p

http://liealittlebetter.com/2016/12/03/arrow-100-oliver-laurel/

I'd say they started with a bang there:"No one is denying that Felicity broke his heart and that residual feelings remain." I distinctly remember Oliver being lying liar who lies and then proceed treating Felicity like an afterthought, essentially. But who am I to stop Oliver from being self-centered jackass when he wants feel sorry for himself, I guess??

Quote

The love that Oliver and Laurel have, it transcends time and space and reality. It’s ever lasting. It’s the kind of love one imagines soul mates having.

[insomniadreams88]

24 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Ive seen the light. Can I get a refund on my Olicity membership? :p

http://liealittlebetter.com/2016/12/03/arrow-100-oliver-laurel/

Uh, I'm pretty sure that for most of the series after S1, Oliver forgot that Laurel even existed. I only skimmed this, but wow, I feel like we're watching different shows. Did this person just happen to forget that on her deathbed, Laurel also said she knew she wasn't the love of his life? That Oliver told Felicity she's his "always"? 

9 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I'd say they started with a bang there:"No one is denying that Felicity broke his heart and that residual feelings remain." I distinctly remember Oliver being lying liar who lies and then proceed treating Felicity like an afterthought, essentially. But who am I to stop Oliver from being self-centered jackass when he wants feel sorry for himself, I guess??

You know, sometimes I feel like the Laurel that the show wishes they had written - the one they're writing now that she's dead and that's retconning everything we saw about her - deserves better than the Oliver they're writing now. 

[CooperTV]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

ou know, sometimes I feel like the Laurel that the show wishes they had written - the one they're writing now that she's dead and that's retconning everything we saw about her - deserves better than the Oliver they're writing now. 

As much I don't care about Laurel, I wouldn't wish Oliver Queen as he's right now on anyone. Women in Oliver's life, Laurel included, deserve better. We need that Felicity's quote of "I don't want to be a woman you love" from season 3.

[LeighAn]

Now I'm sort of fuzzy on the 100th now but the part where she goes on about how he had a true love kiss with Laurel after he realised it was all an alien brain washing gaslight- did that actually happen?  

But seriously that article is too funny. I'm not even bitter about it haha I just figured it be too petty relationship thread haha.

Edited December 30, 2016 by LeighAn

[bijoux]

5 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Now I'm sort of fuzzy on the 100th now but the part where she goes on about how he had a true love kiss with Laurel after he realised it was all an alien brain washing gaslight- did that actually happen?  

But seriously that article is too funny. I'm not even bitter about it haha I just figured it be too petty relationship thread haha.

I didn't read it but I can't remember any kissing after the bathroom scene at the beginning of the hallucination.

[lemotomato]

10 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Now I'm sort of fuzzy on the 100th now but the part where she goes on about how he had a true love kiss with Laurel after he realised it was all an alien brain washing gaslight- did that actually happen?

No, he doesn't kiss her after remembering. She's pissed at him for missing the rehearsal dinner, and he's panicked and confused. When he ditches her for the real world, he kisses her on the forehead, but I'd hardly call that a true love kiss because he's pretty much kissed all the women in his life on the forehead, including his sister.

For all that Olicity fans are mocked for seeing too much meaning in scenes/symbolism, at least we don't make stuff up that didn't happen on the show.

Edited December 30, 2016 by lemotomato

[LeighAn]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I didn't read it but I can't remember any kissing after the bathroom scene at the beginning of the hallucination.

So he didn't kiss "Laurel the way lovers do" and "convey love and loss and longing to a computer program because he was afraid it would crush him"? Awe sad.

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

No, he doesn't kiss her after remembering. She's pissed at him for missing the rehearsal dinner, and he's panicked and confused. When he ditches her for the real world, he kisses her on the forehead, but I'd hardly call that a true love kiss because he's pretty much kissed all the women in his life on the forehead, including his sister.

Yeah I was going to say I remember the forehead kiss but I couldn't recall there being any other kissing beyond that. 

[Chaser]

There is a great gifset floating around that shows the parallels of the real world. Those Ollie and Laurel scenes had a lot in common with (real) Olicity ones.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Chaser

[Lily-n11]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

There is a great gifset floating around that shows the parallels of the real world. Those Ollie and Laurel scenes had a lot in common with (real) Olicity ones.

I saw this on twitter.  https://twitter.com/lyricalarrow/status/812295543024132098?lang=de

[Chaser]

That's the one I was thinking of.

[yellowfred]

Guys, I don't know why you keep pointing out all these actual things that happened on the show.  Did you miss the part about how their love "transcends reality?"

Edited December 30, 2016 by yellowfred

[kismet]

I think LL being in OQ's alien induced hallucination, just like FS in RP's hallucinations was supposed to be logical choices that should make sense but in reality are wrong. Logically, OQ/LL & RP/FS could be together but the reality is that the relationships don't work in real life which was the guttural feeling that both OQ & RP felt something was wrong is what helped break them out of it.

And at the end of the day, OQ ran away from LL again, which is what he always did. I generally always thought that people run towards the love of their lives not away from them. But if running away from someone consistently is how others think of the love of their lives then who am I to change their minds. The world is wide enough for both opinions, however, you won't see me signing up for their romances anytime soon.

[Mellowyellow]

Just curious: Was there a lot of raging when Sara were brought in as the temp LI? 

There is something very hateful about that reporter. She is either written as really bitchy or the actress is choosing to play her as bitchy. Actually I wonder if it is the actress since I HATED her as Louis Litt's LI on Suits as well. 

She's like a super bitchy smug cow but the EPs are trying to sell her as a valid, good for Oliver, real LI. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. I If they wanted Oliver to try and move on couldn't they had had someone more pleasant? Why give him a really skeevy, snotty LI? She's not even evil in the Isabel way. I liked Isabel as an evil character. She was cold and ruthless and upfront nasty. This woman is...snide and smug and very hateful!!!!!

I don't know why people griped against Laurel! Susan is just plain nasty!!!!! Oh the things we have had to put up with the season! 

[HighHopes]

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Just curious: Was there a lot of raging when Sara were brought in as the temp LI? 

There is something very hateful about that reporter. She is either written as really bitchy or the actress is choosing to play her as bitchy. Actually I wonder if it is the actress since I HATED her as Louis Litt's LI on Suits as well. 

She's like a super bitchy smug cow but the EPs are trying to sell her as a valid, good for Oliver, real LI. Something about that rubs me the wrong way. I If they wanted Oliver to try and move on couldn't they had had someone more pleasant? Why give him a really skeevy, snotty LI? She's not even evil in the Isabel way. I liked Isabel as an evil character. She was cold and ruthless and upfront nasty. This woman is...snide and smug and very hateful!!!!!

I don't know why people griped against Laurel! Susan is just plain nasty!!!!! Oh the things we have had to put up with the season! 

I remember there were mixed feelings about Sara. Personally at first I really liked her in S2A when it appeared like they weren't going the LI route with her. Then 2B and the lunge happened, and suddenly Sara was everywhere. She was in the lair, in the flashbacks, and in the regular scenes, so that turned me off from her. I do know that other people however loved Sara and loved the S/O relationship (and would have actually been fine with S/O being endgame (and these were O/F shippers too)). 

Part of the raging for me happened because of how/when S/O happened. Oliver had just realized that something was wrong with Felicity (her acting weird at his mom's mayor thingy) and she revealed what she knew about MM being Thea's father. Then that was it for her scenes (after Oliver told Felicity that "she would never lose him"), the episode ends with a lunge and a hiatus. The next episode picks up with Felicity acting weird again and Oliver being completely oblivious and kind of an asshole to her (2x14 remains my top hated episode of the series and I rage just thinking about it). 

There was also some BTS things with SA saying things in 2A like "Oliver is jealous of Felicity and Barry" and then right before the lunge and post-lunge saying things like "Oliver was never jealous of Barry/Felicity...Felicity and Oliver are just friends! Sara is his equal and his partner!" (or something like that about Sara. I think he said something like "Only Sara understands him/He can be with her without fear because she can protect herself"). 

(Can you tell I hate season 2B and the entire S/O thing? Because I do). 

 

oh oh oh. and also how in 2x20 how Oliver couldn't be bothered to show up to work because he was so busy with worrying about Slade (which ended up costing his friend her job) but he could go rent a hotel room so he and Sara could bang. But that wasn't me hating Sara so much as me hating Oliver. Also I'm pretty sure while he and Sara were at the hotel room Roy was unconscious and then woke up and ran away. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by HighHopes
"he would never lose her" to "she would never lose him". I blame being hungover and a lack of coffee/carbs....

[insomniadreams88]

18 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

Part of the raging for me happened because of how/when S/O happened. Oliver had just realized that something was wrong with Felicity (her acting weird at his mom's mayor thingy) and she revealed what she knew about MM being Thea's father. Then that was it for her scenes (after Oliver told Felicity that "he would never lose her"), the episode ends with a lunge and a hiatus. The next episode picks up with Felicity acting weird again and Oliver being completely oblivious and kind of an asshole to her (2x14 remains my top hated episode of the series and I rage just thinking about it). 

There was also some BTS things with SA saying things in 2A like "Oliver is jealous of Felicity and Barry" and then right before the lunge and post-lunge saying things like "Oliver was never jealous of Barry/Felicity...Felicity and Oliver are just friends! Sara is his equal and his partner!" (or something like that about Sara. I think he said something like "Only Sara understands him/He can be with her without fear because she can protect herself"). 

oh oh oh. and also how in 2x20 how Oliver couldn't be bothered to show up to work because he was so busy with worrying about Slade (which ended up costing his friend her job) but he could go rent a hotel room so he and Sara could bang. But that wasn't me hating Sara so much as me hating Oliver. Also I'm pretty sure while he and Sara were at the hotel room Roy was unconscious and then woke up and ran away. 

That bothered me about 213 too. It felt like there should have been another scene with Felicity after the "not going to lose me" bit. Just something. Instead, it went from that to all about O/S. I think I would've been fine with the lunge if they had decided after it was a one-time thing. Both were hurting. I could understand that. But after Oliver's "I can't be with someone I could really care about" in 206 and then O/S just together in 214, it annoyed me. 

If Oliver wasn't jealous of Barry, someone should've made that clear while filming 208-210. He was jealous. Pretend he wasn't jealous because of romance reasons, fine (even though it came across like he was), say it was all platonic and whatever, but it was there. 

I will also forever be bitter that Oliver made Felicity his EA without asking her and then lost her her job and it was never addressed. Did they even discuss Arrow business in the office enough that his "reasons" for the job change made sense? Not that I can remember. I think there was more Arrow business talk at work when Oliver didn't work there, Felicity worked in IT and she didn't know he was the vigilante. 

[tangerine95]

I wasn't watching live in season 2 when Sara and Oliver hooked up so I got through it fast but i can imagine how annoying it must have been to watch live. Those were terrible eps for the most part imo. Oliver was an even bigger jerk than he is rn and Digg and Felicity were totally sidelined for the Oliver and Sara relationship and Lance family drama. I wouldn't have tuned into season 3 if the show didn't get much better in the last 3 episodes. 

I didn't hate Sara but I really wanted her to leave. I could see that she was an interesting character even tho the lance family drama dragged her down and was a great version of BC but I just wasn't interested in that story compared to the ota and olicity stuff in the first half of season 2. 

I agree about the reporter coming across so gross being somewhat on the way the actress is playing her. Idk just something about her makes me uncomfortable. Maybe because she's about as stalkery as Ray was or because not even Laurel seemed that desperate for Oliver lol. 

[ComicFan777]

I was thinking about the weird writing choices that the writers are bringing up this season.  They are really dealing with guilt in an unusual way this season, at least with Oliver.

When Roy was under the influence of mirakuru and accidentally killed a cop, he felt extremely guilty and talked to Thea about how he checks on the cop's family, and even brought her once.

After Thea killed Sara, she told Sara to kill her at the hospital.

After Oliver kills Felicity's boyfriend, he goes to Susan for comfort which ends in them making out.  For all we know, Oliver could be oblivious to what's going on with Felicity moving forward and just be in a happy bubble with Susan. 

Edited January 1, 2017 by ComicFan777

[way2interested]

24 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

If Oliver wasn't jealous of Barry, someone should've made that clear while filming 208-210. He was jealous. Pretend he wasn't jealous because of romance reasons, fine (even though it came across like he was), say it was all platonic and whatever, but it was there. 

I always laughed at this because it just showed to me how much the lunge threw SA off as well. Like, coming from 206-210 and then 213 happening, which even CL and SA admitted that this romance came out of nowhere for them (which I guess kind of makes sense, since IIRC, wasn't Oliver actually supposed to have the lunge with Isabel in 213 but SG was unavailable so they just changed it to Sara?), kind of makes it so that he was acting incorrectly for the set-up that the show was going for, even if was helping to set up for the 223 *surprise* in the end.

However, for me 2b was kind of a mixed bag rather than a slug through until 221. I thought 210-212 were kind of dull but still enjoyed them (kind of like a few of the episodes in s5), I liked 213, 214 was kind of strange, 215 was boring but was kicking the plot into gear, I liked 216, 217 was kind of annoying, and then 218-223 I thought were a good string of episodes. I do still get bitter at lost potential (Diggle and Felicity having almost no point in 2b except 216 for Diggle and the last 3 episodes for both of them), but I actually get more bitter at the overkill praise s2 gets. It had some really good episodes and many of the choices they made were ones that worked or at least didn't not work, but let's not pretend that the whole season was this golden holistic standard.

[HighHopes]

5 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I always laughed at this because it just showed to me how much the lunge threw SA off as well. Like, coming from 206-210 and then 213 happening, which even CL and SA admitted that this romance came out of nowhere for them (which I guess kind of makes sense, since IIRC, wasn't Oliver actually supposed to have the lunge with Isabel in 213 but SG was unavailable so they just changed it to Sara?), kind of makes it so that he was acting incorrectly for the set-up that the show was going for, even if was helping to set up for the 223 *surprise* in the end..

From what I remember, yes. There was talk about how they had more planned for Isabel in 2B, but they lost SG. I also remember MG saying that when they started s2 they had no idea if it would be Isabel or Sara who was evil, and that they just decided to figure it out as the season went along. 

They really need to learn to lock in their guest actors, because didn't the same thing happen with Wild Cat (?) in season.. three? There was more planned for him and for him/Laurel but they lost the actor? 

Season two remains my favourite season I think and 2x10 was the last great consecutive episode. I enjoyed (parts) of the last three episodes of season two, season three lost me for most episodes and season four was a mess. 

[tangerine95]

I had no idea they had a different plan for Isabel, that makes a lot more sense as  the lunge than Oliver and Sara. They really didn't seem to be writing them as a romantic build up when she first showed up and they made a big deal about how Sara wanted to make it up to Laurel and wanted her forgiveness so dating Oliver didn't really fit with that. 

[Hiveminder]

It goes to show how the writing skill level on this show just isn't high enough for what they're trying to do. They can't follow through with their original plan for Isabel/Oliver so they copy paste Sara in her place. Laurel was poorly written for her entire run, but now we need her to be an inspiration in death so let's just pretend she was a completely different person. We took Olicity too far too fast, so let's just firebomb that relationship along with any emotional progress Oliver has made as a character. The entirety of the season four flashbacks. This is what happens when writers/show runners think they're smarter and more talented than they actually are. 

[statsgirl]

For me, I think they dodged a bullet when SG wasn't available because Oliver hooking up with Sara made sense -- he had known her for a long time, they had gone through a lot together, they were both broken and didn't have to pretend to be anything else than what they were to each other.  I didn't like it much at the time for the reasons others have said (too much Sara in past and present, barely any Diggle and Felicity, Oliver dropping Felicity like a hot potato as soon as he lunged at Sara)  but I always liked Sara.  For one reason, she was always nice to Felicity and even helped her when she was trying to train, unlike Oliver who got judgey because she wasn't sitting at her computer like he expected her to.  I might have rage quit if Oliver had treated Felicity and Digle like that while he was boinking Isabel.

I didn't like Oliver very much in 2B, kind of like I didn't like him in 3B or 4B.  Since I don't like him in 5A already, I'll probably loathe him in 5B.

4 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I will also forever be bitter that Oliver made Felicity his EA without asking her and then lost her her job and it was never addressed. Did they even discuss Arrow business in the office enough that his "reasons" for the job change made sense? Not that I can remember. I think there was more Arrow business talk at work when Oliver didn't work there, Felicity worked in IT and she didn't know he was the vigilante. 

I fanwank that as Oliver knew he was going to be so terrible at the job, he needed someone close by who could do the job for him.  Like Thea is doing his mayoralty job this season.

It doesn't excuse taking advantage of Felicity's loyalty like that though.  Even less letting Isabel bully her and not doing anything about it.

For all the SA says that the Susan storyline is not like the Isabel one, it's travelling the same road so far:  leggy gorgeous brunette ; does the dirty on a woman Oliver cares about; people warn Oliver against her; Oliver ignores warnings and trusts her, later sleeping with her; Oliver ignores friends to focus on his bedmate.  Thinking about it, it's kind of similar to Helena in s1 but that was wrapped up in 2 episodes.  They really need to get some new ideas.

It does however prove that Oliver is still an idiot.  And it explains why the EPs think that Oliver getting together with Susan now is such a brilliant idea of theirs.

Edited January 1, 2017 by statsgirl

[insomniadreams88]

30 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Laurel was poorly written for her entire run, but now we need her to be an inspiration in death so let's just pretend she was a completely different person. We took Olicity too far too fast, so let's just firebomb that relationship along with any emotional progress Oliver has made as a character. 

The Laurel bit especially bothers me because other than the Sara resurrection bit, necessary for LoT, I didn't mind how she was written in S4 when compared to other seasons. I wish they'd remember she had flaws and acknowledge she got past her S2 woes. (And that they hadn't written that 419 retcon. Tommy deserved so much better.)

And just think how they could've shown Olicity as a stable couple with everything else going on pretty close to the same. Oliver probably wouldn't be a complete idiot in S5. That would free up so much time to actually explore some of the stories they've set up. Honestly, shows seem to be moving past the will they/won't they and keeping couples apart. Except Arrow. Procedurals are doing a better job with their couples. The Arrow writers should take note. 

[calliope1975]

22 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

For all the SA says that the Susan storyline is not like the Isabel one, it's travelling the same road so far:  leggy gorgeous brunette ; does the dirty on a woman Oliver cares about; people warn Oliver against her; Oliver ignores warnings and trusts her, later sleeping with her; Oliver ignores friends to focus on his bedmate.  Thinking about it, it's kind of similar to Helena in s1 but that was wrapped up in 2 episodes.  They really need to get some new ideas.

It does however prove that Oliver is still an idiot.  And it explains why the EPs think that Oliver getting together with Susan now is such a brilliant idea of theirs.

Even if she eventually doesn't tell everyone and their brother about Oliver's life off the island and as a member of the Russian Mob because of TruWuv or whatever, that doesn't redeem this story line for him. He's still a moron for even going down this road. Treating the protagonist as an utter idiot, when he shouldn't be one, is one choice of TIIC that I can't forgive or handwave away.

[manbearpig]

20 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

The Laurel bit especially bothers me because other than the Sara resurrection bit, necessary for LoT, I didn't mind how she was written in S4 when compared to other seasons. I wish they'd remember she had flaws and acknowledge she got past her S2 woes. (And that they hadn't written that 419 retcon. Tommy deserved so much better.)

Honestly, I don't even think the writers remembered to write for Laurel in season four, outside of an episode or two, and...when they did write for her it was things that made no sense to me, like the Tommy situation you mentioned. I was really excited for the Laurel/Diggle/Thea team-up (I know others were not), but that ended as soon as it began. I think the writers made a lot of missteps when writing for Laurel, but in season four it felt like she was barely a character at times, which is why I don't particularly miss her now that she has been written off even though she was a favourite of mine for those first three seasons.

I'm just not invested in anything that is happening in season five.

[kismet]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

For me, I think they dodged a bullet when SG wasn't available because Oliver hooking up with Sara made sense -- he had known her for a long time, they had gone through a lot together, they were both broken and didn't have to pretend to be anything else than what they were to each other.  I didn't like it much at the time for the reasons others have said (too much Sara in past and present, barely any Diggle and Felicity, Oliver dropping Felicity like a hot potato as soon as he lunged at Sara)  but I always liked Sara.  For one reason, she was always nice to Felicity and even helped her when she was trying to train, unlike Oliver who got judgey because she wasn't sitting at her computer like he expected her to.  I might have rage quit if Oliver had treated Felicity and Digle like that while he was boinking Isabel.

--

For all the SA says that the Susan storyline is not like the Isabel one, it's travelling the same road so far:  leggy gorgeous brunette ; does the dirty on a woman Oliver cares about; people warn Oliver against her; Oliver ignores warnings and trusts her, later sleeping with her; Oliver ignores friends to focus on his bedmate.  Thinking about it, it's kind of similar to Helena in s1 but that was wrapped up in 2 episodes.  They really need to get some new ideas.

It does however prove that Oliver is still an idiot.  And it explains why the EPs think that Oliver getting together with Susan now is such a brilliant idea of theirs.

Personally, I would have preferred they had ditched the Isabel storyline when they lost the actress. I understand your reasons for preferring him having a relationship with Sara over Isabel. But I think it further damaged how I saw the Lance Sisters indefinitely. It they still wanted me to believe that LL saw OQ as the love of her life after he repeatedly chose her sister over her multiple times, and not find her completely delusional. I don't see how that is possible. For me, SL/OQ was to put the final nail in the LL/OQ coffin, until we relived her delusional fantasy in s4b. I just would have preferred the Lance sisters did not have any romantic relationships with OQ after the boat sinkings, I in the moment hook-ups, but I think the relationships are insulting to the other.

As for FS, I think he was still discovering his feelings for her, so him boinking IR or SL did not make a difference to me. I will say thought that him pursuing a relationship with SL did make my interest in show wane. It was just a cliche move. And him admitting his love for FS was actually what got me reinvested in the show because it was a bold move.

SO ironic, as I was reading your post about Sara. I was gonna post something about Susan being the second coming of Isabel. Like you say its like they are travelling down the same road. And frankly, considering this set of writers I anticipate the same outcome. Somebody get FS behind the wheel again and soon please. Also, could TPTB please stop going on interviews and telling me that I'm really going to root for these new characters. If I want to like and root for Susan I will. I did it for many new characters on many shows. The problem is not my willingness to root for new characters, its that you haven't introduced a new good character in over 3 seasons that I want to root for.

And I think after typing this post, I have found another tenet of bitterness I have with the show. They make all these bold moves like killing TM in s1, having OQ confess his love in s2, killing SL in s3, engagement in s4. Then they buckle under the pressure and resort to filling the show with all these cliche moves - WWLD, the lunge, BMD, MM is the bad guy again, OQ is dumb again and LL never got over it. Unfortunately, I believe the cliches are starting to outweigh the bold moves. Because I honestly can't think of many bold moves since the engagement. If this series is truly a trilogy, I would say that so far this middle set of stories have been a dud. Maybe 4-5-6 are supposed to be the forgotten trio. The first trilogy was not perfect, but I really enjoyed the bulk of it. I have to cherry pick most of s4 & s5 to be able to say that I enjoy Arrow.

[kismet]

3 hours ago, manbearpig said:

Honestly, I don't even think the writers remembered to write for Laurel in season four, outside of an episode or two, and...when they did write for her it was things that made no sense to me, like the Tommy situation you mentioned. I was really excited for the Laurel/Diggle/Thea team-up (I know others were not), but that ended as soon as it began. I think the writers made a lot of missteps when writing for Laurel, but in season four it felt like she was barely a character at times, which is why I don't particularly miss her now that she has been written off even though she was a favourite of mine for those first three seasons.

I'm just not invested in anything that is happening in season five.

I didn't appreciate the way they brought OQ out of retirement and then treated him like an imposition in the next scene. They were like "what are you doing here and who asked you". I literally wanted to shout into the scene or at least have someone on the screen say, uhm well you guys asked him back. I thought that was handled poorly by the writers, which then made some resentment towards the New Team Arrow.

I also didn't like that once Dig met LL, he seemed to forget that he was good friends with FS - but again a failure of writing. Considering LL & FS were supposed to be besties, they could have had all three of them hanging out together socially and that would have made it better for just about every character.

I do think there was potential in having the New TA work as a trio without OQ. They could have had them do more missions together while OQ tackled another criminal problem some other place. He didn't need the back-up and the newbies needed the experience. I did like LL/TQ in s1, so seeing them in the field together should have been exciting. Throw Dig out there for expertise and we could have had a subplot with substance. I do think the writers failed to deliver on that trio.

I honestly don't know why the writers seem to failure so spectacularly. They really have all the elements to write some good TV. I generally find the characters (minus the newbies) compelling even when they are acting like nobs. The writers have moments of shining brilliance and then fail deliver sustained quality time and time again.

[insomniadreams88]

7 minutes ago, kismet said:

I didn't appreciate the way they brought OQ out of retirement and then treated him like an imposition in the next scene. They were like "what are you doing here and who asked you". I literally wanted to shout into the scene or at least have someone on the screen say, uhm well you guys asked him back. I thought that was handled poorly by the writers, which then made some resentment towards the New Team Arrow.

I think it was because that was when Diggle was mad at Oliver and didn't want him there, which was totally okay. But then when it came to Felicity being angry later in the season, she was expected to just come around and forget because then Oliver's actions and decisions were apparently okay, as opposed to his actions at the end of S3.

I will also forever be bitter that Felicity and Diggle apparently can't be friends anymore. I feel like Oliver really did get Diggle in the breakup sometimes, until they throw in a line here and there (like Diggle knowing how Felicity felt about breaking him out) or a brief scene, which, now, seems more about OTA vs newbies and keeping information from them. Remember them in S2? I miss that. 

[manbearpig]

46 minutes ago, kismet said:

I didn't appreciate the way they brought OQ out of retirement and then treated him like an imposition in the next scene. They were like "what are you doing here and who asked you". I literally wanted to shout into the scene or at least have someone on the screen say, uhm well you guys asked him back. I thought that was handled poorly by the writers, which then made some resentment towards the New Team Arrow.

I agree. They probably should have been more welcoming considering that they convinced him to come back, but Oliver is so consistently shitty to everyone around him that I don't particularly care. It's been a while so I may be way off, but from what I remember Diggle was still (justifiably, imo) mad at Oliver for endangering Sara's life*, Thea was behaving in a very little sister type of way and Laurel has that Eric Cartman 'I do what I want' attitude about everything. It didn't bother me at all because Oliver has grated on me since...well, always, but particularly season three.

*I actually think this should have lasted longer. 

[Primal Slayer]

Screw these people for leaving out this scene. It was so good and very much needed for both of them.

[Sakura12]

Yeah, they probably should've kept that scene in. At least we'd get Laurel admitting what she did was selfish since she knew the effects the LP had on people from Thea. And it would be much worse for Sara because she was already a killer. 

[MaisyDaisy]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Screw these people for leaving out this scene. It was so good and very much needed for both of them.

I have never tried as hard to like a character as I did with LL, and unfortunately I was never successful. However there have been many times where they so obviously dropped the ball when writing her that I have been enraged on her behalf. Sara bringing Oliver to Laurels house and eye fucking him over the table comes to mind- just one of the times that Laurel was justified in her anger and that ended in her having to apologise to Sara. I was speechless when that happened. 

Or when upon hearing that highly trained ninja Sara was killed and their Mother was fine with the barely trained Laurel going after them, ummm you just lost one daughter, shouldn't you want this one safe?

I have thought from the end of season 1, that KC must have pissed of someone BTS, because so often it felt like the ball dropping of LL's writing was intentional.

[Chaser]

Watching LOA made me super bitter about what they did with Lance in S3. Lance deserved to know Sara was dead. Oliver should have told him for Sara. Oliver and Lance teaming up to find Sara's killer would have been so much better. 

Stupid Laurel.