Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[looptab]

16 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I think if I were enjoying the show, I would appreciate his tweets on process a whole lot more. Alas.

What is it you're not enjoying? Honest question - I was under the impression you were one of the few in the wait and see camp. Sorry if you already said this somewhere else - wednesday was madness and I caught up a day after, so it's all a blur, haha.

Edited November 4, 2016 by looptab

[Chaser]

I'm so confused about 5x05 cause isn't that S3/S4.

[Thundercatmary]

Random thought, i wish they hadn't  killed off Cooper. I thought he got a bit of redemption at the end plus I think the actor had good chemistry with Emily.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Thundercatmary

[GirlvsTV]

Just now, Chaser said:

I'm so confused about 5x05 cause isn't that S3/S4.

I was thinking the same thing. 

[looptab]

If there's not a "I don't want to be Oliver Queen without you" down the line, then I don't know what the point of 505 was.

[dtissagirl]

4 minutes ago, looptab said:

What is it you're not enjoying? Honest question - I was under the impression you were one of the few in the wait and see camp. Sorry if you already stated this somewhere else - wednesday was madness and I caught up a day after, so it's all a blur, haha.

I'm not enjoying Oliver anymore. I mean. I liked 501-503 fine, although I was already annoyed by the noromo vibe. I didn't hate 504, but it was when I started being bugged by Oliver and/or Steve's acting choices. I shut off 505 about 10 minutes in, haven't gone back to finish watching it yet.

Edited November 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Carrie Ann]

I kind of can't believe that Brian could say the journey of 505 was identical to the journey of the entirety of S3 and not even realize it. Like...glad I watched that whole shitty season for nothing at all.

Anyway, I look forward to finally learning the point of this whole dumb season next week (from you all, I won't be watching). I'm sure it will be great and not at all repetitive.

[Belinea]

What are they even doing?! Instead of explaining what they are doing on twitter every other week, maybe they should use their time and energy to write a coherent storyline...

[looptab]

@dtissagirl  Got it. Yeah, don't know what's up with Steve. Somehow this "spring in his step" he's feeling - it doesn't translate.

Edited November 4, 2016 by looptab

[Chaser]

1 minute ago, Carrie Ann said:

I kind of can't believe that Brian could say the journey of 505 was identical to the journey of the entirety of S3 and not even realize it. Like...glad I watched that whole shitty season for nothing at all.

Anyway, I look forward to finally learning the point of this whole dumb season next week (from you all, I won't be watching). I'm sure it will be great and not at all repetitive.

These tweets are actually making me more bitter. Nice to know I could have just skipped S1 - S4. 

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Carrie Ann said:

Anyway, I look forward to finally learning the point of this whole dumb season next week (from you all, I won't be watching). I'm sure it will be great and not at all repetitive.

I bet it's going to be that he needs to trust people and let them in. (And then he's going to trust

Spoiler

Susan Billiams, and she will, in turn, "let him in." ::rimshot::)

[Carrie Ann]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I bet it's going to be that he needs to trust people and let them in. (And then he's going to trust

  Hide contents

Susan Billiams, and she will, in turn, "let him in." ::rimshot::)

OMG. That is an important lesson to learn, and how else can you learn it than with positive reinforcement?

[Chaser]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I bet it's going to be that he needs to trust people and let them in. (And then he's going to trust

  Hide contents

Susan Billiams, and she will, in turn, "let him in." ::rimshot::)

In what way are we using rimshot... Cause lol 

[lemotomato]

12 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I love how embracing being Oliver as well as the mask in 505 translated into "well, maybe I should look into boning new women."

I love how he's implying that Felicity apparently has nothing to do with Oliver Queen anymore, just GA. 

Nevermind that embracing OQ and being GA at the same time was supposed to be his journey last season.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Chaser said:

In what way are we using rimshot... Cause lol 

In every possible way, because if he's going

Spoiler

full Ollie - well, you know he'd be down with that and more. 

[dtissagirl]

I guess because at least I like to point and laugh at myself as much as I like pointing and laughing at stupid tv shows, it's been fun these past weeks realizing that I really only like Oliver when he's in love with Felicity and showing it too. YAY I ONLY CARE ABOUT OTHER STUFF IF THERE'S ROMANCE IN IT FOR ME. I 'ship therefore I am.

Edited November 4, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

Looking at the replies to BFS - I totally missed Felicity telling Tiny Hands that she "owed him" for canceling their booty call the night before. 

Gross, gross, gross. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gross. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

10 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I guess because at least I like to point and laugh at myself as much as I like pointing and laughing at stupid tv shows, it's been fun these past weeks realizing that I really only like Oliver when he's in love with Felicity and showing it too. YAY I ONLY CARE ABOUT OTHER STUFF IF THERE'S ROMANCE IN IT FOR ME. I 'ship therefore I am.

I'm kind of at the same point. I only started to like Oliver as a person because of his interactions with Diggle and Felicity. I saw a different side to him and that was the side I wanted to root for. And that deepened when he was in love with Felicity. Now it's not enough. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Angel12d

[insomniadreams88]

13 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I bet it's going to be that he needs to trust people and let them in. (And then he's going to trust

  Reveal hidden contents

Susan Billiams, and she will, in turn, "let him in." ::rimshot::)

Oh, I'm going to be so pissed if that happens. And if

Spoiler

they have Felicity talk to Mayo about Havenrock or anything emotional since she and Oliver "don't have that kind of relationship anymore" and I feel like she needs to talk to someone soon. 

I wouldn't be surprised about anything right now. 

[EmeraldArcher]

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Looking at that hashtag - I totally missed Felicity telling Tiny Hands that she "owed him" for canceling their booty call the night before. 

Gross, gross, gross. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gross. 

Um, which hashtag?  Almost afraid to ask, even though I did catch the gross(x4) "owe him."

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Oh, I'm going to be so pissed if that happens. And if

  Hide contents

they have Felicity talk to Mayo about Havenrock or anything emotional since she and Oliver "don't have that kind of relationship anymore" and I feel like she needs to talk to someone soon. 

I wouldn't be surprised about anything right now. 

Don't worry - Havenrock likely isn't going to be spoken of again. 

Just now, EmeraldArcher said:

Um, which hashtag?  Almost afraid to ask, even though I did catch the gross(x4) "owe him."

Sorry, I didn't mean hashtag - I meant the thread of replies to Brian Ford Sullivan.

[EmeraldArcher]

Just now, apinknightmare said:

Don't worry - Havenrock likely isn't going to be spoken of again. 

Sorry, I didn't mean hashtag - I meant the thread of replies to Brian Ford Sullivan.

Thanks for the clarification.  My hackles were halfway raised already that they were stupid enough to flippantly allude to it in a tweet.  What a state of affairs when one can conclude the absolute worst about them, right?  Ugh.

[Angel12d]

I'm still laughing that a TV writer has to explain plots and emotional journeys on twitter because it's not coming across in the actual episodes. Haha, this show. WRITING FAIL.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Angel12d

[dtissagirl]

8 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'm kind of at the same point. I only started to like Oliver as a person because of his interactions with Diggle and Felicity. I saw a different side to him and that was the side I wanted to root for. And that deepened when he was in love with Felicity. Now it's not enough. 

And like. I'm still not actually worried they killed O/F. I think they'll go right back to it in a not so distant future [Feb sweeps?]. But I legit truly do not want to watch noromo!Oliver in the mean time, because he's the opposite of entertaining.

[looptab]

2 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I'm still laughing that a TV writer has to explain plots and emotional journeys on twitter because it's not coming across in the actual episodes. Haha, this show. WRITING FAIL.

And.. kinda pointless? I think everyone got the single episode's 'journeys', it's the reasoning and how and why he needs to go through those again that's confusing. At least for me.

[Angel12d]

13 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

And like. I'm still not actually worried they killed O/F. I think they'll go right back to it in a not so distant future [Feb sweeps?]. But I legit truly do not want to watch noromo!Oliver in the mean time, because he's the opposite of entertaining.

Yeah, I'm sure they will get back together eventually. The trouble is, I probably won't care much when they do. And I know for a fact I'll just be watching their scenes on youtube by that point. Haha.

[apinknightmare]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

And I know for a fact I'll just be watching their scenes on youtube by that point. Haha.

Provided there's anyone left willing to upload them.

[Morrigan2575]

I kind of feel the need to defend BFS here.  His tweets are simply a continuation of his twitter explanation from a few weeks back where he explained how they work on each episode. One of the things he highlighted in his previous "how Arrow works" run down was how each episode was built around a character (Oliver) journey and the lesson that the character learns by the end of the episode.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Angel12d]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Provided there's anyone left willing to upload them.

DON'T GIVE UP ON ME, OLICITY QUEEN! 

[sara1121]

I am 100% certain that they wanted to kill off O/F for good in 5x05 and the current plan is to never return there again. It's possible they may change their minds in the dim distant future, so I think there's still a slight chance of returning to it. But not this season and probably never again. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by sara1121

[apinknightmare]

6 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I kind of feel the need to defend BFS here.  His tweets are simply a continuation of his twitter explanation from a few weeks back where he explained how they work on each episode. One of the things he highlighted in his previous "how Arrow works" run down was how each episode was built around a character (Oliver) journey and the lesson that the character learns by the end of the episode.

They aren't a continuation - they're in a response to someone who tweeted that she hadn't seen an emotional journey established for any of the main characters (she subsequently asked about Thea, Felicity, and Diggle's journeys as well). He just didn't tag her in the tweets that followed:

[dtissagirl]

12 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Yeah, I'm sure they will get back together eventually. The trouble is, I probably won't care much when they do. And I know for a fact I'll just be watching their scenes on youtube by that point. Haha.

I figure if I don't watch the bad parts then they didn't really happen, so that's probably what I'm gonna do? OR I'll do like I did in S3 -- I stopped watching around 311 or 312, and then I got caught up when the 320 sex trailer got dropped.

[calliope1975]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I figure if I don't watch the bad parts then they didn't really happen, so that's probably what I'm gonna do? OR I'll do like I did in S3 -- I stopped watching around 311 or 312, and then I got caught up when the 320 sex trailer got dropped.

That's how I function. I keep hearing about Mayo and Felicity, and I don't know what you people are speaking of. Denial is a hell of a drug. 

It does mean I have to scroll carefully on Tumblr to avoid any scenes that would make my eyes bleed didn't happen.

[Angel12d]

10 minutes ago, sara1121 said:

I am 100% certain that they wanted to kill off O/F for good in 5x05 and the current plan is to never return there again. It's possible they may change their minds in the dim distant future go there once, so I think there's still a slight chance of returning to it. But not this season and probably never again. 

I change my mind almost daily about this, haha. Most days I lean towards a possible reunion at the end of s5, worst case in s6. Then other days I'm all doom and gloom and think it's over for good. IDK. 

 

4 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I figure if I don't watch the bad parts then they didn't really happen, so that's probably what I'm gonna do? OR I'll do like I did in S3 -- I stopped watching around 311 or 312, and then I got caught up when the 320 sex trailer got dropped.

Yep, that's what I'm doing and I did the same in s3. I didn't watch 505 and I'm not interested in seeing Oliver get his flirt on to bang someone new so I'm on hiatus for now, which was actually my original plan anyway. I always said I'd give them until 505. That changed to 509 after the first 2 episodes but now I'm just not interested.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

They aren't a continuation - they're in a response to someone who tweeted that she hadn't seen an emotional journey established for any of the main characters (she subsequently asked about Thea, Felicity, and Diggle's journeys as well). He just didn't tag her in the tweets that followed:

I'm sorry but, they kind of are; he expressly stated that stuff back on 10/26.  

The fact that someone went to him and was like oh I didn't see an emotional journey means (to me) that they were going back to his 10/26 Twitter Posts about how they write Arrow episodes. Incidentally, everyone of those was evident in the episode, with the possible exception of 504 because that's not the emotional journey I got from that episode

However, I'll just leave it at that, I get that this is the Bitterness Thread

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm sorry but, they kind of are; he expressly stated that stuff back on 10/26.  

Eh, we can agree to disagree. A continuation to me would be him voluntarily spelling this out, not doing it because someone called him out about it on Twitter - I thought you were insinuating people were jumping on him for just continuing his previous "educational" thread on his own. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by apinknightmare

[calliope1975]

I liked the BTS stuff that tell you how a story is broken and how a writers room works. That's fascinating to me. I don't like when you have to explain the story being told because it's not being comprehended by a part of your audience. If you think those people are being willfully obtuse, ignore them. If you truly think they just don't get it, maybe look at your output.

[Carrie Ann]

Most of the time, MG blames viewers for not understanding his vision, but even he has occasionally acknowledged in the past that if people didn't get something, then that's on the writers. I don't blame BFS for cherry-picking someone in his mentions for whom he had a ready answer, but eventually, I hope they do all realize where they screwed up here in the early goings. Maybe if they realize it now, they can make adjustments at the halfway mark and beyond.

[apinknightmare]

9 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I liked the BTS stuff that tell you how a story is broken and how a writers room works. That's fascinating to me. I don't like when you have to explain the story being told because it's not being comprehended by a part of your audience. If you think those people are being willfully obtuse, ignore them. If you truly think they just don't get it, maybe look at your output.

Like @Morrigan2575 wrote, I do think these ep-by-ep emotional beats were pretty obvious and didn't need to be spelled out. I wish this person had asked what kind of long-term emotional storylines were set up, because that's what I don't get - the premiere didn't set up any questions that need to be answered character-wise by the finale. All the questions posed then have already been answered. 

According to his tweets, I guess we'll find that out in the 6th ep? Or...whoever's watching it will find out, I suppose. Or maybe we already know what it is, since it's probably something he's already had to figure out before. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

I am highly enjoying that most replies to BFS are people asking why are they repeating lessons from other seasons that we've already watched Oliver learning. This fandom is actually smarter than you, BFS.

[Chaser]

That is my actual issue with his tweets. Explaining the thought process I'm cool with, it's interesting. But he just outlined the previous seasons. We have all spotted how they have repeated story beats and we mock the shit out of it and it just occurred to me that it isn't a mistake. They are sitting down and mapping out the same emotional beats and patting themselves on the back for it.

I'm just a really frustrated viewer right now because I feel like it null n voids the growth I enjoyed watching.

[apinknightmare]

It's doubly stupid because it's basically telling people that they can drop the show and pick it back up whenever because if you missed Oliver "learning" a lesson the first time, you can pick it up again at a later date and not miss much of anything. 

[lemotomato]

If I put together Brian Ford Sullivan's tweets, MG's comments about the show "evolving", and SA's comments about the show feeling "renewed", the conclusion I get is that they're repeating the same story beats from seasons 1-4, but with a new supporting cast and characters because they're incapable of writing new things for the original characters we love. It's a way of keeping the show fresh, but it's certainly not what I'm going to stick around to watch.

Edited November 4, 2016 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

Oh, they are so totally incapable of writing new stories that they're trying to recreate s1 again.  Oliver is a killer, Oliver develops a team, Oliver sleeps around, Oliver learns to trust, Oliver and Felicity flirt but nothing happens. Wash, rinse, repeat.

From the Spoiler Discussion thread:

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

  No, I think you have hit the oncoming problem.  As the show is moving away from exploring relationships between the established characters and to just introducing a bunch of new people, it lacks emotional resonance.  Which leaves me to root for all the characters to get past this weird place where there is nothing to root for. 

The thing is, all these all these beats had emotional resonance in s1. Maybe that was AK, maybe because Berlanti didn't have sixty other shows on then.

Right now, it feels like they are going through the same motions but it's just the same motions and no emotional beats.  Like two dimensional drawings instead of three dimensional characters.

3 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I guess because at least I like to point and laugh at myself as much as I like pointing and laughing at stupid tv shows, it's been fun these past weeks realizing that I really only like Oliver when he's in love with Felicity and showing it too. YAY I ONLY CARE ABOUT OTHER STUFF IF THERE'S ROMANCE IN IT FOR ME. I 'ship therefore I am.

Maybe because that's the only time Oliver becomes three dimensional again (see above).  The rest of the time, it's just the s1 motions.  And comic book characters and stories

[lemotomato]

3 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The thing is, all these all these beats had emotional resonance in s1. Maybe that was AK, maybe because Berlanti didn't have sixty other shows on then.

For me, it had nothing to do with who was the running the show. The beats meant something the first time because we were seeing them for the first time between the characters and Oliver, because of the chemistry between the actors, and because they spaced them out over 4 seasons, not 5 episodes.

[statsgirl]

That did help.

But surely we could still get some with the noobs but the only time I saw a connection was Oliver/Rory.  Maybe Diggle had one this week with Wild Dong, I don't know because I'm now ff'ing all WD "emotional" scenes.  We've learned less about Evelyn in 5 episodes than we did in the single episode last season, and I liked Curtis a lot more last year.

MG as a show-runner is just ploty plot plot. We found that out in s3.

Edited November 4, 2016 by statsgirl

[Chaser]

2 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I am highly enjoying that most replies to BFS are people asking why are they repeating lessons from other seasons that we've already watched Oliver learning. This fandom is actually smarter than you, BFS.

I just got the chance to check out the replies and holy hell that's funny. My favorites are the ones including gifs of Oliver learning all these lessons.

[BunsenBurner]

Havenrock reminds me of two stories I was told growing up by relatives who were a part of them. The first is Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the dropping of the A bomb. Tibbets was the man who flew the Enola Gay that was responsible for dropping the bomb. He said he would do it again if told because it was his job and he was following orders. He DID NOT make the decision and there was a war going on. He said he was never bothered by it but my relatives said that whenever he was near Japan he would always do a fly over to show his crew the devastation that bomb did so that it would never happen again.

I don't remember the name of the General but this happened during the Viet Nam war. He was given his orders and he cried because he was the one who had to decide which of his soldiers would live and die. The decision he would make could potentially save more lives by the how he decided to go. He did manage to save more lives but it cost him because the memory of what he did could never justify what he had done. He told my relative that he had never had to play God before and didn't know if he could carry out his orders. He did but retired shortly thereafter and had a hard time living with the souls of all those soldiers on him.

Both were military but one followed orders from above so could live with what he did the other had to make the decision and couldn't.

Havenrock follows IMO the General's path. Yes Felicitly saved millions but she is not a soldier she had to make a quick decision and Monument Pt. had more people so she diverted the bomb to a smaller town. How could her analytical mind conceive that what they did was good? It took lives. She has to live with that the rest of her life.  It's important and yet the writers just glossed over it. How is she able to actually get up each morning and continue on with her life? Her not having a job and not trying to be CEO at Palmer Tech actually makes sense because why would it be important after what she did? The people that have died as a result of her working for the GA were the bad guys so she could excuse their deaths as being necessary but the people of Havenrock could have been the center of the greatest minds in all the world for all she knew and she snuffed them out in a few seconds. This is why this needs to be explored and shown on Arrow but she is NOT a mask so it never will.

[doesntworkonwood]

13 hours ago, Angel12d said:

DON'T GIVE UP ON ME, OLICITY QUEEN! 

At this rate her videos will have much more viewers than the actual episodes themselves.

[Thundercatmary]

I feel like these writers don't understand/realize that a lot of unhappiness with the stories goes back to BMD and 4b. They keep saying that shippers are only mad because they split up O/F but I think it's more than that. The break up was contrived and nonsensical and I think people are just getting to a point where they've had enough.