Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[kismet]

Maybe BM can finally cash that check and split the money with OQ??? I mean there is no point in keeping it now, the secret is out.

[wonderwall]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

[calliope1975]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

 

You know, I don't know what the next few episodes will hold, but by this point last year, I'd already skipped a bunch of episodes. I hate, hate, hate the BMD, but if that's the only story line I can't stand, I'll take it over hating the majority of all of season 3. 

[Angel12d]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

 

Hmm. I think I'd rather deal with s4 because it's mostly only the baby mama crap. In s3 we had to deal with Sara being killed, Laurel's sloppy BC arc, Felicity and Oliver on the outs, Felicity being a pod person and dating Ray. Diggle being a pod person and getting sidelined. Oliver being a broody idiot. Malcolm mind raping his own daughter. Ray Palmer existing. I could go on.

 

Yep. S4 is so much better.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Angel12d

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I'd take the stupidity of this season over the stupidity of last any day. And there's less LoA, so that's also a plus. 

[way2interested]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

S4 most definitely. I didn't hate s3 at all, but I've honestly genuinely liked 409-414 despite the looming drama to come. By just ignoring that one story, all of the episodes actually become a lot better.

[kismet]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

I feel like I might need to watch 415 to fully answer the question. But as of right now, I would say the contrived drama of s3. I hated O/F apart and I hated RP. But at least there was a point to it. And despite the execution being crappy, it was still better than the current state of affairs on the show with WC, New TA & BMD.

 

The biggest problem is that this BMD could have been told in a very real way that not only introduced drama but led to character development. Finding out you have a child is a major thing. Drama naturally flows from major life changes, it doesn't need to be amped up by forced angst. O&F still could have broken up over the kid reveal, but it could have been more about them & their relationship, not some dumb ultimatum meant only to give writers an easy way out. Perhaps OQ wanted to be more or less apart of W life than FS initially wanted. Perhaps FS could have brought in some of her abandonment & father issues. Maybe BM just had some trouble adjusting to OQ wanting to be a part of her life. Even dealing with residual MQ's actions, would have provided some drama considering OQ/TQ/FS were all part of a paternity drama before.

 

I guess for me, I really can't see them making s3 that much better. I feel like the ideas were not bad it was the execution. And a lot of that went down to casting & connect-the-dots plots. RP was never going to work the way they wrote him. O/F were never going to together until 320. Ras still would have been a letdown. But s4, I see them being able to write far better stories. It's their ideas that are horrible this year on top of the execution. LL raising SL from the dead just because. FS getting paralyzed for flashy storyline & character propping. BM/W being reduced from an unexpected fatherhood story to whatever the crap this is now. I find it more frustrating to sit through stories that potential are being wasted by the showrunners/writers EGO & hubris.

 

S3 is like eating at a fast food restaurant. The food is not great, but it gets the job down. S4 is like eating at an amazing restaurant. Picking out your courses. Eating your appetizers and then being told that the restaurant has run out of all the food you wanted to eat. I also feel that there might be the potential for food poisoning, if the writers continue down this bleak path.

[MsSchadenfreude]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

 

Definitely Season 4 than Season 3.  I'm not even that bothered by the baby mama drama.  It's a standard soap opera plot and this one isn't even that bad. It'll be over soon anyway.  Last season was angst, bad plots and an ineffectual Ra who went down with a whimper.

[Starfish35]

Absolutely season four. I'm not happy with some of what's happened this season. I'm disappointed that they started out so well and seem to have wasted a lot of that good start by going back to the contrived drama. But it's still better than the disaster that was season three.

[jay741982]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

I'd rather have had none of it!

[hogwash]

This BM drama doesn't compare to the bullshit that was Malcolm's "plan" in S03. Also Ray Palmer's entire existence. 

[Password]

I'll throw a cat among the pigeons.

 

I would take the stupidity of season 3 over this nonsense. At least season 3 was rubbish from start to finish. That's why I feel I can easily write it off as crap.

 

Season 4 lured me in with organic story telling, in character reactions and Oliver really embracing "no lies". I feel cheated with this horrible, illogical, unreasonable story that Guggie is pushing as a "tough decision". It's tainting pretty much everything in the back half of the season and unless they change script AGAIN, and make it so that Oliver realises that he really didn't have to lie, I won't like the resolution.

 

I'm tired of the writers.

[bijoux]

2. When Felicity was in the hospital, and Oliver was actively avoiding visiting her, did Oliver go visit William? Did he feel guilty about doing that? Did the visits to William influence the fact that he was avoiding dealing with Felicity?

 

6. No, really, why didn't Oliver hire a security detail for Samantha and William at any point in all of this?

 

2. I refuse to believe that Oliver took breaks from electrocuting people to go play with Legos. I know he went back to CC, I just do not accept that he did so during this time frame. And I will keep this belief even if the show tells me otherwise. Just no.

 

6. On the plus side, at least there are less dead security personnel. Not like they were able to do much against Darhk at the holiday party from hell.

[rtalive]

I think that changing the dynamic so drastically this season was a mistake, but I guess they are going to change it again, but not sure if it would be better or worse.

Shows like the X files had great 7 seasons because creators are smart enough not to change the dynamic and the cast(Mulder/Scully/Skinner). The last season were crap because they lost major character(Mulder) and completely changed the dynamic, because they kept Scully and partnered her with someone else.

The Arrow creators are unable, in my opinion, to see when something is good and works. And they change pretty quickly the established dynamic. Laurel was good as a layer and angry ex girlfriend and sister, Sara was amazing Canary, Thea and Moyra were interesting family members with family drama, Malcom was good only as a crazy villain, and Diggle and Felicity are good as a supporting casts that are part of the Arrow team. Arrow is good as a leader and vigilante. Oliver of course as the main character can continue to evolve and learn and get smarter.

[tv echo]

The Arrow EPs have this mindset that the show only works if they keep changing things constantly - regardless of whether something works or not. They definitely do not believe that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it.'  That is why we keep getting surprise, epic, game-changers.  They do shock-by-numbers storytelling.  So their version of a successful show is to keep things moving so fast that we (hopefully) don't see the plot holes and inconsistencies.

 

Sometime last season I reached this point where I became very disenchanted with this show and thought about quitting both Arrow and consequently this forum.  I kinda feel like I'm getting near that point again.  Season 4 started out so great, then they had to go and throw in this BMD crap.  It's not just the introduction of Oliver's son that's the problem, but (as others have detailed) how they did it.  The stupidity and illogic of the entire thing just makes me feel disrespected as a fan and a viewer. I also feel like they try to cover up their story weaknesses by increasing the amount of flashy action stunt sequences - like a magician's misdirection.

 

I'm trying to stay optimistic by keeping in mind Laura Hurley's food poisoning analogy - but if this sickness lasts much longer, I just don't know...

Edited February 24, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

Skipping an episode here and there for the sake of your emotional well being as a viewer = smart choice.

[Morrigan2575]

Skipping an episode here and there for the sake of your emotional well being as a viewer = smart choice.

I only watch if there's an episode i think is worth it.  So far I've watched 1-3. 6-9, 12-13 and, I have no plans to watch 15.  Not sure about the rest of the season, it will depend on what I see on an episode by episode basis.  

[Chaser]

The only episodes I've skipped so far are 4/5/10. I was planning on watching 10 but the Twitter feed wasn't positive so I just watched Olicity Queens videos. If not for Roy and the Calculator I would have skipped 12/13.

4x11 is worth watching. I would check it out.

[Morrigan2575]

I watch Olicity Queen's videos of the episodes I skip.

[bijoux]

Definitely wacth 4x11. It's the best episode after the hiatus and possibly the best of the season.

[Carrie Ann]

I think that changing the dynamic so drastically this season was a mistake, but I guess they are going to change it again, but not sure if it would be better or worse.

Shows like the X files had great 7 seasons because creators are smart enough not to change the dynamic and the cast(Mulder/Scully/Skinner). The last season were crap because they lost major character(Mulder) and completely changed the dynamic, because they kept Scully and partnered her with someone else.

The Arrow creators are unable, in my opinion, to see when something is good and works. And they change pretty quickly the established dynamic. Laurel was good as a layer and angry ex girlfriend and sister, Sara was amazing Canary, Thea and Moyra were interesting family members with family drama, Malcom was good only as a crazy villain, and Diggle and Felicity are good as a supporting casts that are part of the Arrow team. Arrow is good as a leader and vigilante. Oliver of course as the main character can continue to evolve and learn and get smarter.

 

What you're describing is basically a procedural--shows with mostly static or glacially paced character/relationship development--and that's fine! There are hundreds of them on TV, if that's what you're looking for. In fact, The Flash is a lot more procedural than Arrow. But that's not what I'm looking for from this show. I was wary in the early going about how hard they were going to push this "Oliver's not the leader of this team" thing, but frankly...they've kind of dropped that. He may not get as much screentime in the fight scenes as he used to and it is silly to have four costumes out in the field for every little mission, but Oliver is calling the shots for the most part and I've been fine with the dynamic of TA in the lair (which is honestly where I care more about it). 

 

And I disagree that only Oliver should evolve as a character, but I do feel like the writers feel that way a lot of the time, and other characters often evolve only through the magical gifting of costumes or companies. We've sometimes not had enough of others' POVs, and their weaknesses are rarely called out or addressed with growth arcs. So we're left with Oliver as the only character whose full emotional state is available to us, and for that reason alone, many viewers are probably more sympathetic to him than to the others. But it also means that often, he is the only one allowed to make mistakes and pay for those mistakes--which is why they rely on him to be dumb so often. I mean, by Season 4, I feel like my expectations for what I'm going to get from this show are fairly realistic, so I don't really expect this to change, but I would be so pleasantly surprised if they let him achieve real growth this season, and then moved on to let other characters do the same next season.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[NumberCruncher]

Nearly 24 hours later after digesting this utter crapfest of an episode and it only made me more incredulous that they even went down this contrived BM route to begin with. They took a trite concept and made it worse by injecting it with a whole lot of mansplaining and melodrama. Seriously major dumbass writing there. Why the hell do I watch this show again? LOL.

[Lady Calypso]

Nearly 24 hours later after digesting this utter crapfest of an episode and it only made me more incredulous that they even went down this contrived BM route to begin with. They took a trite concept and made it worse by injecting it with a whole lot of mansplaining and melodrama. Seriously major dumbass writing there. Why the hell do I watch this show again? LOL.

 

 It sucks. I put the blame first and farmost on the dumbass who insisted on this storyline, who is Marc Guggenheim. I know Stephen Amell had some say, but from what it sounds like, SA wanted more of a storyline regarding parenthood, not whatever crap he got instead. I'm positive Stephen had an entirely different vision on how this storyline would go. Starting with, you know, not lying to Felicity for months. Then I put the blame on the writers, who I guess did what they could with the storyline they were given, but still have to put the blame on them for their crap lines given to Thea and company. I guess I'll shift some blame to Stephen, who also wanted this storyline, but I don't think he has that much say in what goes into it. Then I put blame on the editors of the breakup scene, along with Gregory Smith  and whoever wrote that scene. Should have made that scene a whole lot better than it was.

[NumberCruncher]

It sucks. I put the blame first and farmost on the dumbass who insisted on this storyline, who is Marc Guggenheim. I know Stephen Amell had some say, but from what it sounds like, SA wanted more of a storyline regarding parenthood, not whatever crap he got instead. I'm positive Stephen had an entirely different vision on how this storyline would go. Starting with, you know, not lying to Felicity for months. Then I put the blame on the writers, who I guess did what they could with the storyline they were given, but still have to put the blame on them for their crap lines given to Thea and company. I guess I'll shift some blame to Stephen, who also wanted this storyline, but I don't think he has that much say in what goes into it. Then I put blame on the editors of the breakup scene, along with Gregory Smith  and whoever wrote that scene. Should have made that scene a whole lot better than it was.

Oh believe me--I place plenty of blame on MG but I at least thought that WM's influence might have steered the show a different direction. Clearly I was so very wrong on that one. It's starting to feel very S3-esque and that's not a good thing. Guggenheim is the worst thing to happen to this show but because he's the main showrunner now, we're pretty much stuck with whatever the next really bad plotline he decides is his next project. I would feel somewhat better if the writing staff could overcome the stupidity with some solid scenes but perhaps my expectations there are too high for a 4th season show on The CW.

I agree with you though about Stephen wanting to be able to play the father role, but not being a fan of where the writers took it. I know people were mad about him saying this was his favorite episode to shoot but I see that being less about the direction of the storyline and more about it being something different and allowing him some pretty meaty scenes from an acting standpoint. From his various Con appearances you could see that he wasn't exactly super-excited that Oliver being regressed back into an emotionally repressed liar.

[AyChihuahua]

I agree with you though about Stephen wanting to be able to play the father role, but not being a fan of where the writers took it. I know people were mad about him saying this was his favorite episode to shoot but I see that being less about the direction of the storyline and more about it being something different and allowing him some pretty meaty scenes from an acting standpoint. From his various Con appearances you could see that he wasn't exactly super-excited that Oliver being regressed back into an emotionally repressed liar.

And next episode it looks entirely possible we'll have ANOTHER

forced wedding

. It really is S3 redux.

 

I put a little more blame on SA. I'll let the whole "my fave SL EVAH" thing go, even though I personally think it's ridiculous for him to be excited about playing a father when apparently he didn't even interact with the kid in this episode, so it was 30 seconds in the crossover (with, from what I hear, was a terrible child actor). BUT, whatever...however, his face when she dumped him and failure even to begin to stand up or really react were really disappointing. I've seen gifs, and he looks not even mildly bummed. I GET that he was going for resigned, emotionally worn out, etc., but none of that works for me. He could be resigned and depressed and still seem heartbroken. He looked like he just found out his dinner delivery would be late. 

[Lady Calypso]

I put a little more blame on SA. I'll let the whole "my fave SL EVAH" thing go, even though I personally think it's ridiculous for him to be excited about playing a father when apparently he didn't even interact with the kid in this episode, so it was 30 seconds in the crossover (with, from what I hear, was a terrible child actor). BUT, whatever...however, his face when she dumped him and failure even to begin to stand up or really react were really disappointing. I've seen gifs, and he looks not even mildly bummed. I GET that he was going for resigned, emotionally worn out, etc., but none of that works for me. He could be resigned and depressed and still seem heartbroken. He looked like he just found out his dinner delivery would be late. 

 

No, I absolutely agree with you there about Stephen. I forgot to mention in my posts that I'm disappointed in his acting choices in that last scene. Those are all on him. I was hoping for more, and I got disappointment instead. And not really from him, but his choices. I was hoping for a few tears, a little bit more effort to say anything. I do appreciate that the writing didn't have Oliver fully try to excuse his choice. I mean, he told her the truth but seemed to understand that his situation wasn't good, and I think Stephen was trying to have Oliver seem like he knew that they were going to break up (no surprised look, no judgmental looks....actually a good acting choice there) but he missed the mark, an actual rarity for Stephen. I know he's not the strongest actor, but he usually hits the emotional marks really well. So that is really the one major thing I put blame on him for. He could have made the moment more heartbreaking. Sure, Oliver wouldn't have deserved much sympathy, but it might have softened the blow for me.

[kismet]

I will have to say that I was in a very bitter place about this show for the last few weeks. But somehow, 415 was just so poorly written, acted, directed, it was an all around shit show. However, it was almost so bad that it was actually good. Somehow it was cathartic to see that the only way they could write themselves out of the 2 most contrived plots was to have the most anti-climatic break-up followed by a cheesy "it's a miracle" walking scene. It was so cliche.

 

I will say that I have never laughed as much during a "dramatic" show. It wasn't even dramedy level funny, it skipped over to bad sitcom funny ~ I half expected a laugh track to start playing. And like I said the other night... laughter is the best medicine. So somehow the fact that 415 made me laugh more than cry was probably the best thing the show could have done for me. It eased some of my bitterness.

 

If the writers aren't going to treat their plots & characters with integrity and care, than why should I? Paralysis & Secret kid could have been amazing character stories that could hit multiple characters on multiple levels. The drama and intensity would come from a real place, dare say it could have been "organic". That is the saddest part, is that these storylines had potential. I just don't understand how potential becomes whatever it was they served up this season.

[Duke Silver]

Based on commentary I've read across the interwebs, I'm glad I quit this shit-show after (belatedly) watching the final half of S3.  I couldn't stomach S3...I can't fathom how so many keep watching.  More power to all of you.

[catrox14]

I have a question... 

 

Would you all rather deal with the contrived drama of S3 or S4???

 

This is the literal worst question ever asked.  This is like asking me if I'd rather have my eye put out with a rusty spork or a hot poker.

[KirkB]

Oh, 4, any day of the week. The BMD has screwed up a lot of the momentum this season had but it is nothing compared to the mess made by that pathetic excuse for Ra's al Ghul and almost everything about the League. Not to mention what happened to Sara.

Edited February 27, 2016 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

Even with the BMD and the ridiculous magic, I'd take season 4.

 

I'm bitter at the comments of "it's ridiculous that Felicity can walk after two months of paralysis.  She probably had physiotherapy so her muscles didn't atrophy but even so, in an episode where the viewer is expected to accept magic, choking over distances, a person who can turn into various animals and fly, the League of Assassins, a criminal organization called HIVE, and a microchip that will enabled a person with nerve damage to walk, and the thing they can't accept is that Felicity can walk after two months of not walking?

[Lady Calypso]

Yeah, 4A, up until the crossover, was so much fun. It was light, bouncy, and it just worked pretty well. Yes, there were the obvious issues of Too Many Masks out on the field, so that affected Oliver as a fighter, and there was the obvious issue of Laurel having to be selfish to bring back Sara for her show, but overall, it was just better than season 3 ever was. We had OTA scenes, we had Olicity working really well, we had Lance getting his own storyline, and we got some new kickass villains (no villain could be worse than Ra's Al Ghul...I hope). Even parts of 4B have been decent: Roy, Olicity moments for the most part, Roy, Laurel becoming better by not having a storyline, Roy, Donna/Quentin, oh and Roy.  I hope I didn't forget Colton Haynes reprising his role as Roy, which made Thea likeable (Thea's character has been extremely mishandled this season). 

 

But season 3? What was there really to like? Oliver finally saying I love you to Felicity? Nyssa? Roy being the best character of season 3 for me? That's honestly all I can think of, because I disliked most of everything else. Ok, I was more invested in the flashbacks in season 3 than I have been this season, but that's only one thing. 

 

So yeah, from the crap that was season 3, I'll take season 4's mess any day. 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[DeadZeus]

Why do i have a feeling James Bamford hates the Green Arrow/Oliver Queen? In ep. 7 of this season he got some pretty lackluster fight sequences. But in ep 14 it was downright pathetic. First scene against the demo team GA couldn't even draw an arrow.... huh?

Second sequence he can't even beat 1 guy in hand to hand combat... What? He can beat multiple league members at once, beat Ra's, Malcolm and Slade but some dude who's specialty is BOMBS is too much for him in hand to hand combat? They weren't even good with bombs anyway, they failed a clean assassination attempt on a regular cop...

I don't get it :S

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know. S1 Arrow had some of the best damn fight sequences. I floved the Hood/Dark Archer roof fight in 123.

I don't know if they're just bored with planning fights for GA or they're taming him down to make the others look better or what.

[catrox14]

Man I miss s1 and s2 so much. I just watch them on loop...and cry....:(

[Angel12d]

I don't know. S1 Arrow had some of the best damn fight sequences. I floved the Hood/Dark Archer roof fight in 123.

I don't know if they're just bored with planning fights for GA or they're taming him down to make the others look better or what.

 

This is exactly it. There's two extra masks they have to make look good now within the same amount of time they dedicate to fight scenes in each episode. GA draws the short straw on his own show. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Angel12d

[EmilyBettFan]

I noticed in the last 2 episode they minimized Laurel and Oliver fight scenes. Like her not being there at all. Especially the 4x14 where she is on the roof and they three of them go after Ruve. Also they only had her drive the motorcycle and when they got to Darhk's house she didn't do anything except unsuccessfully trying to park the bike. Lol

Edited February 28, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[rtalive]

What you're describing is basically a procedural--shows with mostly static or glacially paced character/relationship development--and that's fine! There are hundreds of them on TV, if that's what you're looking for. In fact, The Flash is a lot more procedural than Arrow. But that's not what I'm looking for from this show. I was wary in the early going about how hard they were going to push this "Oliver's not the leader of this team" thing, but frankly...they've kind of dropped that. He may not get as much screentime in the fight scenes as he used to and it is silly to have four costumes out in the field for every little mission, but Oliver is calling the shots for the most part and I've been fine with the dynamic of TA in the lair (which is honestly where I care more about it). 

 

And I disagree that only Oliver should evolve as a character, but I do feel like the writers feel that way a lot of the time, and other characters often evolve only through the magical gifting of costumes or companies. We've sometimes not had enough of others' POVs, and their weaknesses are rarely called out or addressed with growth arcs. So we're left with Oliver as the only character whose full emotional state is available to us, and for that reason alone, many viewers are probably more sympathetic to him than to the others. But it also means that often, he is the only one allowed to make mistakes and pay for those mistakes--which is why they rely on him to be dumb so often. I mean, by Season 4, I feel like my expectations for what I'm going to get from this show are fairly realistic, so I don't really expect this to change, but I would be so pleasantly surprised if they let him achieve real growth this season, and then moved on to let other characters do the same next season.

I agree with you. I guess I like more procedural shows, but I think there is a way to make this show and all the characters evolve and have their archs and still keep the established dynamic. And changing the dynamic doesn't actually mean that the characters receive development. For example Thea is the same angry unappreciative character as in s1 but now she parades in a costume. That is not a character development for me. She has the same lines and is usually plot device. Laurel had certain development as a person, because she was able to forgive her sister and Oliver, but also putting on a costume doesn't give her any development. For me her becoming the Black Canary is another selfish act for her and I don't see her as a hero.

Felicity and Diggle can have their centric episodes where we can see more about these people. Giving Felicity more screen time this season was great though. She deserved her own arch. But what was interesting about her development was more about her coping with difficulties(being shot) and working as a vigilante(the consequences and meeting her father also vigilante) than the romantic drama. And I agree with you that: "other characters often evolve only through the magical gifting of costumes or companies", I guess that's what I want to say also. Felicity didn't have any new development as a CEO of Palmer Tech. Just another plot device.

About people being only sympathetic to Oliver, because he is the most developed character I have to disagree. No one likes dumb heroes, no matter how developed they are, and when Oliver is acting dumb people are annoyed, including me.(for example Malcom story and the Baby drama). People like Oliver the most because he is written as the most interesting character in the first couple of seasons.(he was pathetic human being five years ago, who evolved into a strong, selfless, focused, driven, heroic man, who wants to save the city and carries on his shoulder all the guilt he can have. He puts his loved ones and the city first, and is able to sacrifice himself for the others. Which makes him the hero Green Arrow. I guess that is what makes him kind of interesting.) But if they dumb him more and make him not interesting I guess people will just stop watch the show.

There are other interesting characters of course, and everybody have their own favorites.

Felicity for me was interesting because she was normal grounded and very intelligent, also heroic and selfless. She didn't cared much about her personal lifer because what she was doing with the Arrow was more important than being on a date, at least that is how they wrote her in the first two seasons.

Sara also was interesting for me. She had also very difficult path, she wasn't so pathetic as Oliver was five years ago, she did some bad stuff, which can be excused with youthful mistakes, but then she grew to become more dark and her development as an assassin was also very interesting. Then she came back to her city as a heroic masked person who wanted to help women in distress and also protect her family. Her personal life and connection to the other characters was also very well written, with some interesting mysterious elements. 

I like Shado, Tatsu, Nyssa - all characters with very little screen time and development but still very interestingly written.

 

And so on, I apologize for not being on topic. ;) :)

[HighHopes]

Not me...I would ask so many questions about them portraying BM as the Virgin Mary when she's actually a lying hag, and WTF is up with valuing her over Felicity, and WTF with Oliver being as dumb as a decorative doorknob, and what is up with Spawn being maybe even dumber, and also WTF is up with Oliver's obsession with blood and did they do that on purpose, bc it's really super creepy and please knock it off...

 

Anyway, I'd probably get kicked out.

 

Okay but can you please go and ask all of this?? Because someone needs to call out SA to his face about how terrible this storyline is and how can Oliver actually say he loves Felicity and wants to be with her "for better for worse" when he was faced with "the worse" HE DIDN'T TELL HER. And when she was faced with "the worse" he didn't visit her in the hospital and then also had no idea that the dad who abandoned her when she was a kid was not only back, but was also the dude who attempted to destroy the city the previous night. 

[kismet]

Listening to that I could only think of Felicity. That song fits her so well

From the small talk thread about Kelly Clarkson's song about her father's abandonment. I agree I think the song does fit FS.

 

It also makes me a little bitter that this is the season that they decided to bring FS's father back and completely bypassed any emotional conversations about it with OQ & FS. It's like his return was an emotional afterthought after building it up for 2 seasons.

 

Also, a little bitter that they were also not able to somehow connect PapaSmoak's issues to William. I know I wasn't in favor of having them parallel each other. Primarily because I wanted FS & PapaSmoak to have their own arc and not be consolidated into BMD. But it's disappointing that the writers intentionally chose to have OQ not talk to FS about being him a part of William's life, when she out of all the ARROW regulars has the most unique experience about how it feels to grow up without a father. The circumstances are different, but still her perspective would have been important to get, even if they weren't dating. They still could have mustered up the break-up. It's just another one of the disappointing aspects of the BMD, that there could have been a realistic and emotional meaty scene and the writers just skipped over it for plot.

[way2interested]

From the small talk thread about Kelly Clarkson's song about her father's abandonment. I agree I think the song does fit FS.

 

It also makes me a little bitter that this is the season that they decided to bring FS's father back and completely bypassed any emotional conversations about it with OQ & FS. It's like his return was an emotional afterthought after building it up for 2 seasons.

 

Also, a little bitter that they were also not able to somehow connect PapaSmoak's issues to William. I know I wasn't in favor of having them parallel each other. Primarily because I wanted FS & PapaSmoak to have their own arc and not be consolidated into BMD. But it's disappointing that the writers intentionally chose to have OQ not talk to FS about being him a part of William's life, when she out of all the ARROW regulars has the most unique experience about how it feels to grow up without a father. The circumstances are different, but still her perspective would have been important to get, even if they weren't dating. They still could have mustered up the break-up. It's just another one of the disappointing aspects of the BMD, that there could have been a realistic and emotional meaty scene and the writers just skipped over it for plot.

Yeah, gotta say I agree with you there. For me, I think I was more disappointed because I just assumed that part of the BMD would be about Felicity's father issues all this time and then they ended up not really connecting at all and it really threw me off.

 

My own interpretation of the break-up scene kind of had Felicity being upset at being left out of the conversation because she has a unique relevant experience. I know that she was more upset that he didn't share any of it with her as a life partner/potential spouse, but I feel like the extra hurt on her side, or the added insult to injury, was that the decision that Oliver made without her was the same one that was made against her 18 years ago (along with the same exact reasoning, her dad saying that him leaving was what was best for Felicity and Donna, Oliver saying that him distancing himself from his son is what's best for him). The added awareness of Oliver purposefully trying to not talk to Felicity, probably to avoid the eventual break-up that he felt was coming instead of actually trying to sit down and get through it together, even though he knew that Felicity was very much affected by her father's absence and sudden return, added even more of an emotional betrayal from Oliver that could really push Felicity over the edge of tolerance.

 

However, this problem with this is that the show never directly indicated this. Like s3, I'm left to figuring this kind of motivation by myself so I don't have to accept the obvious angry interpretations of Felicity's behavior (ex: "Felicity was mad because she couldn't be part of a decision that didn't even concern her own child" vs "Felicity was upset that someone who wanted to be her life partner refused to share part of his life with her and even after being busted continued to do it") that the writing seems to give. Plus, Felicity's speech was purposefully interrupted by her miraculous and fortuitous recovery, which cut out her pov on the situation even more.

 

Here's hoping that at least one conversation between Oliver and Felicity about the similarities to the situations comes out, but eh.....   It's just a good thing that I don't get overly bitter about things that don't but should have happened on shows.

[DeadZeus]

Anyone else dissapointed about the Legends of Tomorrow Star city episode?

 

I mean.. Team Arrow losing to a snotnose punk kid with his little gang and alot of Team Arrow members dying... Just cuz Sara and Ray were not there?

Then suddenly Old GA and Connor Hawke can beat them with just the 2 of them? What?

They need to stop making Oliver/GA rely on others to help him win. I mean i get that he shouldn't do anything on his own anymore. But just like on Arrow, the LoT episode shows that Oliver can't have a freaking win and needs to rely on others to succeed or die.

He needs a solo win IMO I don't just mean one fight scene. But like a BIG win that only HE, GREEN ARROW could accomplish. Currently he always needs someone to  bail him out. The other teammembers are there to help him. Not do everything for him.

 

I don't like things like... Vixen not there? Can't beat Darhk... Sara not there? Can't beat Grant Wilson... Oliver needs to be able to win some major battles on his own :S

[EmilyBettFan]

That's what happens when you need to make other characters look good. At the expense of Oliver it happens a lot with making Laurel and Thea look good. Another reason why I resent those characters. I like Thea and I never liked Laurel.

[DeadZeus]

So far the GA is nobody, like.. he contributes nothing to the team, getting rediculous...

 

Also, kinda funny the an amazing setpiece action scene for Arrow isn't even on Arrow.. lol... I mean that music was perfect and the action was so good. I don't understand how Arrow S4 action pales in comparison to the LoT episode. And why Old Oliver is more agile.

Edited March 8, 2016 by DeadZeus

[kismet]

It's a modern Samson story. They cut his hair in the fb and they went from bad to unwatchable. They cut his sleeves off his new costume and now he can't fight...

I truly hope they are bringing back longer hair in fb. But more importantly they have to do something about GAs costume. The new turtle like football player is just not working. Digs new mask might be dumb, but at least he can still move.

[bijoux]

Well, sure he can move, but can he see? I'm not so certain. Supposedly he asked Cisco for improvements on The Flash. Why is he dragging his feet?

[DeadZeus]

The costume defintely limits his movement, if you notice his roll or jumps he does it like a tank.. In earlier seasons it was very slick and swift.

[Scribbles]

Don't ya think they did the comic fan service and can change the suit after this season?  While Malcolm could wear the sleeveless suit and pass this season, Diggle can't.  Diggle has had to stand in before....this could give the needed reason for a change.  When the writers need Diggle to play Arrow again, something will need to be done about the suit.

[Sakura12]

CL requested her new suit be sleeveless because she didn't want her movements restricted (the jacket she got was probably just because that ep was shot outside and it's cold in Vancouver). Then SA gets turtle shells on his arms for no real reason which restrict his movement. Did he really think those look good or did he have turtles on the brain since shooting TMNT? 

[Starfish35]

or did he have turtles on the brain since shooting TMNT?

Hahahaha :)

Edited March 8, 2016 by Starfish35