Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[Angel12d]

If this show were better written, I could see them trying to contrast Felicity telling Donna to trust Lance with the fact that Felicity herself has massive trust issues. She doesn't practice what she preaches, and having Oliver break her trust should be an opportunity for the show to explore that.

But they're setting up Oliver for a change way way way more than they're setting up Felicity for a change, because this show is not great at multitasking.

 

This is exactly what I was hoping they'd do actually because, not surprisingly, Felicity does have trust issues. But then I also thought the 'emotional storyline for O/F' would also include linking Oliver maybe not being in his kid's life to Felicity being abandoned by her dad and well, I was naive. LOL.

[Password]

I think the only way it might possibly be brought up again is once Oliver has done his grand gesture of sharing something with Felicity that he might've kept from her, Donna will use that to help convince her to give him another chance. And that would definitely make me feel better about the whole thing, since then it'd have a purpose.

If it happened in this way it would make sense. But knowing these writers Oliver would do absolutely NOTHING and Donna or whoever would bring it up because Oliver won't stop sad panda-ing.

[HighHopes]

I am so bitter that it appears the Diggle/Felicity friendship is gone for good. We haven't really had a scene between them since 3x07 where Digg told Felicity that her moving on and dating someone else (when Oliver pretty much refused to be with her) was "messing with Oliver's head" and since then it really has only been downhill for them... Last night I was reminded of Digg's line to Ray about how "if he hurt Felicity, they would never find his body" (or something similar), and then Oliver hurts Felicity and Felicity according to Digg "will come around and get over it". For someone who started the season telling Oliver that "You don't love and you don't trust" i really don't understand how they now have him believing that Felicity should get over Oliver not trusting her. 

[dtissagirl]

Plot-driven flakiness is a serious disease, okay.

[BizBuzz]

Ok ya'll ... does no one celebrate holiday's anymore???  I came on to five separate reports all having to do with almost the same complaint ... you have all been busy during a holiday ... wow.

 

Please remember, snark the show, not the posters nor the fans.  This thread is to talk about PAST episodes.  

 

Remember this is a BITTERNESS thread, which means ... most likely ... there will be viewpoints that don't mesh with yours.  This thread is here to be a place where you can vent in peace.  Keep it that way, ok?

 

Snark ... show/characters ... not fans/posters.  Got it?

 

Thanks!

[rtalive]

I think the show lost it's focus and changed it's direction drastically. So in a way I feel cheated, because if it was like it is today I would have never become a fan. I watched the first three seasons after they were released and I watched four episodes per night. That's how intense and interesting it was. The thing is I like the main character, his story, the adventure, the fights, the heroism and the sacrifices were intense and compelling. For me this season the show main topics revolve around the other characters and is divided between them taking turns for importance and the main character is reduced to minimum and the worst thing - to stupid and weak unrealistic presentation of a man. The other characters are good but for me not interesting to drive a show called Arrow, and no matter how cool is to see that Thea can fight now or that Felicity can save GA it just takes away the main reason why I am watching this show - and it is to see how GA saves the day.

So there is this poll, because I am interested in other people opinions on the matter, and also I thing there are big division in the fandom these days about the quality of the show. So if you guys care you can also share it somewhere else, so we can gather more data. It does not matter if you agree with me or not.

http://www.poll-maker.com/poll636298x24404351-26

[apinknightmare]

For me this season the show main topics revolve around the other characters and is divided between them taking turns for importance and the main character is reduced to minimum and the worst thing - to stupid and weak unrealistic presentation of a man.

I agree that the stupid is strong with Oliver, but how exactly is his character a weak, unrealistic presentation of a man? If it's because he's in love and willing to show that he's upset and hurt, likes to cook or some other kind of sexist reason, feel free not to answer. Otherwise, I'm really curious about why you feel that way.

Edited March 31, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

Last season they killed Oliver to give space to another character so if that wasn't reducing the main character to a minimum I don't know what that was.

[Password]

For me this season the show main topics revolve around the other characters and is divided between them taking turns for importance and the main character is reduced to minimum and the worst thing - to stupid and weak unrealistic presentation of a man.

*whistles*

Yikes.

[dtissagirl]

Historically, lead actors in network shows that have a secondary ensemble tend to work less the more seasons their shows have.

 

It's actually part of the perks of being the lead in a successful television show -- the ensemble gets to do more because the show is doing well, and the lead gets better working hours [i.e. instead of working 16 hours a day 5 days a week, they work 14 hours 4 days and take one day off].

Edited March 31, 2016 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

There were episodes of Buffy in which you could practically see SMG's exhaustion. I'm all for the lead taking an occasional step back, they just need to make sure the other characters and stories are worthy of taking the occasional step forward. For me Buffy and Veronica Mars did that well; Arrow does it less well.

[Chaser]

Since people are talking about the relationship between Oliver and Laurel in the episode thread, I'm going to reiterate that I'm bitter over them not make Laurel the snarky ex. 

[bijoux]

It was my wish for them to go with Laurel as the anti-heroine. I feel like it's something more accepted with men, but I think it could have been a) interesting, b) justified, and c) played to KC's strengths.

[thegirlsleuth]

I think it could have been interesting to have Laurel go into a total alcoholic spiral in season two, lose her law license, and become a wise talking private detective--which plays to KCs strengths--who fights for the little guy and eventually becomes the black canary.

 

In other words, I wanted her to be Jessica Jones.

Edited March 31, 2016 by thegirlsleuth

[MostlyC]

Butterness?

 

or bitterness?

[wonderwall]

Butterness?

 

or bitterness?

Bless you for bringing this back :D

[Nostariel]

Butterness?

 

or bitterness?

 

[DeadZeus]

Oliver to Thea during their last training session: "You have to sense my presence even when i'm not in your eye line"

Meanwhile this Season... Oliver gets shanked in the back by a cop, and even funnier, league members just happen to appear out of thin air in the lair.

Atleast not only the drama is full of hypocrisy.
 

I mean what Oliver says is true ofc. But he sucks at it himself lol.

[Sakura12]

So now it's canon that Sara Lance has defeated both the Huntress and Hawkgirl in a fight. Yet the other one is supposed to be comic one of the best martial artists in the DC verse Black Canary.

[Scribbles]

So now it's canon that Sara Lance has defeated both the Huntress and Hawkgirl in a fight. Yet the other one is supposed to be comic one of the best martial artists in the DC verse Black Canary.

Good thing for Sara....she is beyond comic canon and free to break the ties that bind others.

[rtalive]

I agree that the stupid is strong with Oliver, but how exactly is his character a weak, unrealistic presentation of a man? If it's because he's in love and willing to show that he's upset and hurt, likes to cook or some other kind of sexist reason, feel free not to answer. Otherwise, I'm really curious about why you feel that way.

I am sorry for the late answer, I wasn't around for a while. No nothing sexist. To be honest my disappointment with the show has nothing to do with the relationship but i will say something about it also since you brought it up. I am disappointed that the side characters look more powerful this season and that Oliver is like the supporting character. I think he is unrealistic, because they showed him too quickly to become the perfect boyfriend, the one that wants to go to Bali instead the one who does everything to save his city, after all this is a show about a hero who saves his city, I think, not show about a former playboy who suddenly is perfect husband material.. But that's ok in a way. What's more bothering is that the writers took his abilities to fight crime away and now he is just pushed and punched each episode. That's all.At least if they had combined his gentle new nature with the toughness he had before on the field, it would have been good.

Edited April 15, 2016 by rtalive

[looptab]

I'm sure people will answer to you 10x more eloquently than I will, but those things you quoted are totally unrelated.

It's true that Oliver seems to have lost all his skills in the field - but that's not because of his transformation into a semi-well-adjusted man. We discuss this often on these boards, the problem has everything to do with the number of the fighters and the need to show them all being at an equal level, giving all of them the spotlight - and all at the same time. Rather than showcase a couple characters for each fight, they all go in together, and it ends up being boring, repetitive, and it makes Oliver looks like a fool.

 

As for the idea that the show is about a playboy transforming into husband material, that's not at all what I think the show is about, nor I think that's what the writers are trying to portray. But I guess perception is everything. To me, the show is about a reluctant hero and his journey. Try as he might, in the end he can never be able to put his own needs above those of the city. He tries  to go away, but he comes back. Because he is a hero. The show is about his journey towards finally embracing that.

Edited April 15, 2016 by looptab

[Password]

I think reluctant hero is the best way to describe Oliver. All the other heroes seem to want to make a difference using their skills and Oliver comes across as almost being forced to do so. Like it's his job, not his passion. And I agree with @looptab that we're seeing his progression to fully embracing being a hero as a "want" instead of a "must".

The fact that at the end of season 1 he was more than willing to hang up his suit to have a normal life with Laurel, then followed through with that in season 3 with Felicity just further proves that he doesn't really...like doing it. He keeps saying the darkness drags him down and I think that's what he sees vigilante-ing as.

Hopefully he will fully embrace being the GA as a "want".

[lemotomato]

Agree about the Oliver's fighting and also the rush to perfect husband romance. I like Oliver and Felicity, think they bring out the best in each other. But rather they did it slower. Let them work together and have a better friendship first for a longer time. I mean they didn't get together in season 3 but it was definitely Olicity then. Instead let Felicity be more independent and not so interested in him romantically, not so impressed with him, and let Oliver spend more time becoming a better person first. Then get them together maybe last season or so and we wouldn't see ups and down ,cuz Oliver has straightened out by then with the lying and lack of trust not problems any more and this BMD type issue wouldn't even come into play.

But this all happened already. "Let them work together and have a better friendship first for a longer time." happened in seasons 1-2. "Let Felicity be more independent and not so interested in him romantically, not so impressed with him, and let Oliver spend more time becoming a better person first" happened in season 3. "Then get them together maybe last season or so and we wouldn't see ups and down"-- Every TV couple has ups and downs after they get together. I don't like to speak in absolutes, usually, but I will this time. Every TV couple has broken up after they officially get together. What's happening to Oliver and Felicity is textbook "Writing for TV relationships 101".

Edited April 15, 2016 by lemotomato

[looptab]

Actually he was. Until the BMD. Which is "writers throwing obstacles at couples because that's what Tv shows do". Yes, it's predictable. And no, you don't have to like it. I don't think there's many of us who like it (there are pages to show for that). Of course you get to be bitter about what you want to, I don't think anyone was denying you that? I think @lemotomato was just adding to the conversation and explaining why we got what we got.

Edited April 15, 2016 by looptab

[lemotomato]

Actually he was. Until the BMD. Which is "writers throwing obstacles at couples because that's what Tv shows do". Yes, it's predictable. And no, you don't have to like it. I don't think there's many of us who like it (there are pages to show for that). Of course you get to be bitter about what you want to, I don't think anyone was denying you that? I think @lemotomato was just adding to the conversation and explaining why we got what we got.

Thanks, looptab. For the record, I hate how the BM drama happened and would have preferred happy, stable Olicity instead of contrived conflict. But that's not how TV works, and the Arrow writers in particular have a tendency to fall back on tired tropes to create drama, especially in the latter half of the season. I was just trying to bring up some thoughts for consideration. Because I like discussion and stuff. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited April 15, 2016 by lemotomato

[dtissagirl]

Maybe but don't see why everything has to be TV Relationships 101 IMO

 

The answer here, unfortunately, is Because CW. The network demands a fair amount of writing specifically towards Sweeps episodes, and the show has to follow the structure imposed by the suits. And one of the main staples of CW's sweeps structure is splashy romance-y things happening in episodes to be aired in November/February/May.

 

I would probably bet the showrunners want to NOT write like that, but they can't.

[Morrigan2575]

I think the other problem here is that MG likes/loves patterns.

X01 always starts out with Oliver running

Up until S4 the Big Bad is revealed in x09

Relationship breakups/temp relationships happen between x13-x20 (or there abouts)

May = SC being destroyed in some form

x22 is always a Springsteen Song Title

x13-x15 mostly flashback episode (except s4)

I really do think that it's partially CW structure and partially MG having some weird writer's OCD that makes Arrow very predictable. Of course Arrow was never high brow/top notch/intelligent writing to begin with, IMO.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

I can only think of two things Arrow ever did that I could not predict:

 

1. Oliver saying "I love you" in the S2 finale.

2. Roy not dying.

 

That's it.

 

And letting O/F be friends for 4 seasons and only amping up the romance in S5 was never ever an option.

 

1. The premise of the show demands that Oliver's in love with a woman who will guide him through his hero's journey.

 

2. The network/studio suits would never let the show 'ship stall when they can build up Sweeps around romance-y shenanigans

 

3. Arrow has never ever found a single plot/story arc/narrative beat it didn't rush through. EVER. Why anyone expects them to start doing it, I do not know.

[quarks]

As I said, what I saw was moving too fast and I would have slowed it down to friends all the way until at least season 5, then they are such good friends  they date and know each other so well they're way beyond fights and misunderstanding and lies so it is a relationship WITHOUT ups and downs. Now is that not predictable? Maybe but don't see why everything has to be TV Relationships 101 IMO

 

 

That timing, waiting to put a television couple together until at least season 5? Is also predictable and standard for U.S. television. See, for instance, Castle, Bones, Friends (Monica and Chandler), Big Bang Theory, Smallville (which introduced the endgame love interest in season four, but didn't really get them together until season 10), Leverage, and several more. Revenge only threw its endgame couple together at the end of season 4 because the show was getting cancelled. When the couple does get together earlier than that (Friends (Ross and Rachel), Big Bang Theory again, The Office U.S. version, New Girl, Scandal, Burn Notice), they almost invariably break up at least once for several episodes. 

 

There's some exceptions, of course, but this is still pretty standard for television, which means that basically, you are asking Arrow to exchange one thing that you find predictable (the inevitable television breakup) for something equally standard (not getting together until season five, and generally still having some sort of breakup right before or during the wedding episode).

 

Regarding Oliver as a boyfriend, I think the largest problem is that with the exception of this lie, he's almost been too good of a boyfriend. That is:

 

1. He's saved Felicity's life a number of times.

 

2. He's opened her heart in ways she never thought possible.

 

3. When she revealed that she really wanted to go back to doing Team Arrow vigilanting, he went along with it, even though it meant giving up something he was really enjoying - people not shooting at him.

 

4. He cooks. And he packed her a lunch.

 

5. He gave her a fern.

 

6. He gets along with her mother.

 

7. He risked his life to rescue her ex-boyfriend.

 

8. He stayed with her after she was paralyzed.

 

9. He went with her to her physical therapy sessions.

 

10. He went to her corporate presentations to support her.

 

11. He gave her a codename.

 

12. He listened to her description of marriage, and proposed to her right after that. In public.

 

And in a way, that created the problem - because after all that, the only way Arrow could create the mandated television couple split (something that, as Dtissagirl just pointed out, was almost certainly mandated by the network) was to have everyone except for Malcolm, Damien and Laurel act either nonsensically (Samantha) or wildly out of character (everyone else). So we had Thea "Since you lied to me, I shall bankrupt our entire family" Queen justifying the lie; John "You kept a big secret from me, so I'm not speaking to you for several months" Diggle justifying keeping the secret; Samantha "The normal thing to do here would be to call a lawyer, but why, when I could split up your relationship during sweeps months instead" Clayton forcing Oliver into one stupid secret; Oliver "Ok, ok, I got it. People hate it when I keep secrets, so I'll stop doing that this season" Queen keeping secrets again, and even Felicity "So, your decision to kill Ra's by dying. We should really talk about this," Smoak deciding not to talk about this.

 

So yeah, I think the larger issue is really that because Oliver was too good of a boyfriend, Arrow had to resort to this to break them up. On the bright side, because Oliver was that good of a boyfriend, the also inevitable one or two episode reunion should - should - make some sense.  

[DeadZeus]

One thing pissed me off so much last episode...

It's the same Idol from the flashbacks??? So Oliver KNEW from episode 1 that Darhks magic comes from an Idol. Yet he needed Vixen to tell him that? Why? He already knows that kind of magic needs an Idol.. why did he never go for the Idol before and had to call Vixen.. Bad writing at its finest?

[way2interested]

It's the same Idol from the flashbacks??? So Oliver KNEW from episode 1 that Darhks magic comes from an Idol. Yet he needed Vixen to tell him that? Why? He already knows that kind of magic needs an Idol.. why did he never go for the Idol before and had to call Vixen.. Bad writing at its finest?

Technically Oliver had no idea that Darhk's magic did come from an idol in episode 1, the audience did. He could have maybe thought that he had one, but Darhk at that point was doing different magic things than Reiter or even Vixen was (Darhk was sucking life out of people and stopping arrows, while Reiter was transparent and bullet-proof and force pushing people out of the way and Vixen was channeling animal spirits) and Reiter seems obsessed with being near the idol while Darhk was never seen with one. Not to mention, Oliver also saw Constantine using magic without any idol at all. By the time Darhk was doing things similar to Reiter, circa 409, Oliver probably should have at least had a thought that maybe this would also be related to an idol, but I'll give him a pass because his sister, best friend, and girlfriend were in immediate danger. But after that, yeah, you're right, he probably should have brought this idea up to the team, which would have prompted Lance to remember that Darhk had an idol and then prompted Oliver to remember that he's seen it before. Maybe Oliver ends up destroying the idol in the past that makes him think that the idol is gone and he didn't bother to think about it?

 

I'm a little less mad at the idea that Vixen had to tell him (because it does give Vixen more to do) and a little more mad at the fact that the writers literally made the same mistake as the whole mirakuru cure thing from s2 with the whole idea that their problems could be solved by Oliver remembering and talking about something from the island. Plus, with the whole effort that it took for them and Vixen to find it and destroy it only for the team to put it together in 418 for no reason? Smh writers.

[Morrigan2575]

I don't think he knew from 401 on but, even if he did, it's not the first time the show has done this. They did the exact same shit in S2 when Oliver conveniently forgot all about the Mirakuru cure until the show needed it's Deus Ex Machina.

[statsgirl]

I can forgive Oliver not knowing about DD having the idol.

 

What I can't forgive is him putting it together again after Vixen smashed it to pieces.

[tv echo]

The new Arrow poster features Diggle front and center, with smaller figures of Felicity and Oliver on either side of him.  The last episode and the next episode will feature a lot of Diggle. And yet I haven't seen a single complaint about the show turning into "Diggle & Friends."  Can you imagine the uproar if a new Arrow poster had featured Felicity front and center, with Oliver and Diggle on either side of her?

Edited April 30, 2016 by tv echo

[NumberCruncher]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

The new Arrow poster features Diggle front and center, with smaller figures of Felicity and Oliver on either side of him.  The last episode and the next episode will feature a lot of Diggle. And yet I haven't seen a single complaint about the show turning into "Diggle & Friends."  Can you imagine the uproar if a new Arrow poster had featured Felicity front and center, with Oliver and Diggle on either side of her?

Yep, I thought the exact same thing when I saw the poster.  I patiently waited for the big uproar (which I knew would never come) over them putting Diggle front and center over The Green Arrow.  Total silence.  People are nothing if not predictable.

[Thundercatmary]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

The new Arrow poster features Diggle front and center, with smaller figures of Felicity and Oliver on either side of him.  The last episode and the next episode will feature a lot of Diggle. And yet I haven't seen a single complaint about the show turning into "Diggle & Friends."  Can you imagine the uproar if a new Arrow poster had featured Felicity front and center, with Oliver and Diggle on either side of her?

This is very true, and on a related note it's why I'm so happy I found my way here. At least it never gets crazy like some other non moderated places that I won't name. Also, thanks mods! :)

[kismet]

2 hours ago, nksarmi said:

What I mean as relationship drama is coming up with contrived ways to not put the couple they clearly intend to be together - together - and keep them together. I hate when shows do that. Not much makes me lose interest faster than that. And I think it weakens the writing because instead of just saying - what cool stories can we tell? It becomes how can we break so and so up and get them back together and tear them apart - oh yea and let's tell some cool crime fighting stories on the side.

I have to agree with some of that. Nothing gets me more bitter than a story that is being told just for shock value and dramatic effect. There are so many rich layers and nuances to good storytelling. That when the writers cop out and take the contrived or easy route for DRAMA, it just makes me made - especially if the subject matter is something realistic or highly emotional like paralysis. They didn't tell that story to tell the story of journey & struggle, they did it fore extreme dramatic effect - which was evidenced by the fact that they had her miraculous gain the ability to walk just at the right moment to literally walk out on him. Same feeling with the BMD, it wasn't about OQ adjusting to the idea of fatherhood or finding a way to keep his child safe. It was about how can we milk these events for ANGST.

Professional writers are privileged to have the opportunity to tell stories and share characters. They should focus more on those elements, than how can we wreck this house only to build it back up again to wreck it again to build it, etc. If you tell a good story, you don't have to worry about keeping the cycle going, your story will just flow and the drama will come out naturally because that is the nature of life and decent storytelling. There is an element of drama in every story, you don't need to force it 99% of the time.

[TrueMyth]

I know many liked the "The President asked me if the fate of the world is resting in the hands of an IT girl, a criminal, and two guys in Halloween costumes" line, but it actually set my teeth on edge.  Felicity hasn't been an IT girl for three years!  I know she was just fired, but that happened while the crisis was going on.  I know "Tech CEO" doesn't hold the same level of derision as the others on the list, but that is rather the point.  Maybe "failed CEO" could have worked?

[Morrigan2575]

That would be outing Felicity to the President. 

[TrueMyth]

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

That would be outing Felicity to the President. 

If ARGUS knows Felicity's connection to Team Arrow, I think the president does, too.  Do you think they redacted her name when they apparently called her an "IT girl"? 

[apinknightmare]

Felicity being referred to as an "IT Girl" doesn't bother me. It was clearly meant to show that the president thought the whole situation was pretty ridiculous, since he referred to Oliver and Diggle as guys in Halloween costumes. Like, we have this whole military, all these defense mechanisms, and the people who are going to wind up saving the world are a little team of vigilantes. 

[TrueMyth]

Yeah, I understand the line's intentional humorous derision, and enjoyed Oliver's defensiveness about the costume.  I understand why others posted it to the favorite quotes thread.  It didn't work for me on a gut level, which is why I posted here in the Bitterness Thread.  Glad it worked for you!

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, TrueMyth said:

If ARGUS knows Felicity's connection to Team Arrow, I think the president does, too.  Do you think they redacted her name when they apparently called her an "IT girl"? 

that was my assumption, that Argus/Lyla knew but the President was just given vague descriptions and Code names.

[wonderwall]

I'm bitter that I missed the opportunity to say that Damien's plan to destroy the world is amaizeing :(

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

I'm bitter that I missed the opportunity to say that Damien's plan to destroy the world is amaizeing :(

I am so cornfused how this happened:(

[wonderwall]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am so cornfused how this happened:(

I've been a fool. A terrible fool.

[tv echo]

Ugh... I just read a 421 episode review (which I didn't post) in which Arrow was criticized for making the nuke strike on a small town a character development plot point for Felicity.  Betcha if it had involved Oliver, there'd be praises galore.  In fact, the show itself - as well as every other superhero show or movie - is about the character development of the hero due to hard choices being made and horrific things happening as a result.  But heaven forbid, there be any character development of Felicity beyond being comic relief and IT support for Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

I was thinking about this this morning, and I think they have been so determined not to allow anybody to cry this season as a MASSIVE overcorrection to last season that some of the characters are starting to come across as psychopaths.

So, in S3, for me, Felicity etc., cried in reaction to really bad things, and in reaction to not that bad of things. I actually do think she cried/did cry voice a bit too much, by which I don't so much mean total times she cried as that she cried in response to stuff that, while it sucked, wasn't THAT bad, and piled on to crying in response to really terrible stuff, it just became too much. So the EPs heard that criticism and massively overcorrected, so that this season, no one is allowed to respond emotionally to, well, anything. Thea nearly dies (again) and people joke and quickly get over it. She gets stuck in a dome and is told everyone else in the whole entire world is going to get nuked, and she's not so much as allowed to act bummed about it. Felicity is paralyzed and she doesn't shed a tear. She's forced to nuke one town to save another town, and that same night she's cracking jokes. These are things that any normal human being would react emotionally to, but bc Guggie has this truly stupid idea that the season is "lighter" as long as the characters never get bummed by any of the horrific things happening, they are not allowed to react in a remotely realistic emotional way, and it's making them come across as a combo of caricature and psychopath.

[ComicFan777]

I think the new rule is: one tear max per person, and only in extreme cases.