S02.E04: Season 2, Episode 4

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

With the doors to Golden Square barred by the authorities, Lydia must try every trick in the book to get back on top. Can Margaret and Nancy secure the witnesses they need before she once more gains powerful protectors?

[Avaleigh]

I'm really enjoying the hell out of this show. It's exciting, the characters are fascinating and surprisingly funny. 

I like how the women are really forming a bond in this episode. My only issue is that I kind of want Quigley kept in the story because she makes everything more interesting. I feel like the show won't be as good if she ends up being executed. 

I'm still worried for Lucy being hooked up with Lord Fallon but I'm intrigued by the fencing lessons and wonder what his end game is with her. I wish that she and Charlotte had more scenes together. I'd like to know what sort of advice Charlotte would give her now that she has a "keeper". 

I was surprised to see how vicious Cherry is with regard to Emily. I suppose Emily isn't exactly helping matters since she continues to be rude and insulting to Cherry. Still, it's obvious that Cherry doesn't care what happens to Emily as long as she ends up getting what she wants. 

Quigley and the Lord Justice were too funny. That nervous girlish laughter when she realizes this guy wants her. And his cry of Tally ho!! during sex. Lol!

Quigley got pretty lucky overall in this episode. She got her business back, she's getting invited to hang out with a marquess and other titled people, she avoids being arrested, she has a new protector of sorts, and she has a willing spy who is ready and eager to do her bidding. Hopefully some of that luck rubs off on Charlotte (and the other Wells women.)

Nancy seems like she'd be a good fit at Emily's place since it's where men are going to go for something different. 

I hope that Margaret doesn't make that one woman give up her baby. Didn't she indicate that she'd only be able to keep the kid until it's weaned? 

What's the deal with Liv Tyler's character and her brother? She has a bastard child but since she seems to have hidden it successfully, why wasn't she able to move on with her life and get married so that she could be away from her creepy brother? He controls her with money so it seems like the answer to that would be to marry for money. Unless he's controlling her with more than just money?

This show just jumped high on to my list of must see TV. I wish Hulu was like Netflix and just released all the episodes at once. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Avaleigh

[pamplemousse]

Did Fallon plant Liddington's button in Kitty's hair? Because I always thought that was surprisingly sloppy for Fallon to leave his button on her body and he seems smarter and more careful than that. Or do all the Spartans have those buttons as some sign of their membership in the Virgin Hunt Club (shudder)? Now it's been pretty much confirmed that the Marquess of Blayne is the leader or at least high up in VHC with the way he was talking to Fallon, never seen the latter so deferential to anyone before. Speaking of, the Marquess can go choke on a glass of port for treating Charlotte that way, manhandling her out of the card room, and then taking his anger out on her. Also, he was such an asshole for making Liddington flirt with Lucy to get a rise out of Fallon. Yes, Fallon is a serial killer with crazy eyes, but the Marquess seems way more dangerous and creepy to me, his manipulations, be they large or small, are just very cold and twisted (I feel sorry for poor Lady Fitz).

I feel like I say this after every episode but...I'm very worried for Lucy. 

Quigley's surprised girlish laughter and expression after the Chief Justice said he preferred her was completely adorable. She's evil but she's my favorite.

Every episode always seems far too short and I just want to spend more time with these characters, they're all fascinating and so entertaining even down to the smallest roles.

Best line of the episode: "Pretty little fuckpuppet."  (Emily Lacey is the best.)

Edited July 25, 2018 by pamplemousse

[UNOSEZ]

Like everyone else here.. I'm worried about Lucy... She's a bit arrogant And angry in the midsts of powerful men who like to plat games and don't care about anyone... I knew Isabelle had a child out of wedlock... I wonder where it is.. Who's looking after it.. I gotta assume were gonna see the kid sooner than later... Damnit why'd they have to make cherry the mole.. I wanted to like her... And Emily has treated her like trash but still... I do wish we could get two episodes at a time.. Or at least longer episodes.. Every week I'm wanting more.. I wake up early on Wednesdays just to catch the show before my day starts 

[mirandroid]

I know this is out of left field, but with the way that Isabelle keeps looking at Charlotte, it makes me wonder if Charlotte is somehow the baby had out of wedlock. That makes the brother situation all the more squicky.

[UNOSEZ]

27 minutes ago, mirandroid said:

I know this is out of left field, but with the way that Isabelle keeps looking at Charlotte, it makes me wonder if Charlotte is somehow the baby had out of wedlock. That makes the brother situation all the more squicky.

I dint think the ages match up.. I'd gather Isabelle is at least 10 years younger than Maggie wells.. And prob only 10 or so older than Charlotte... But she does look at her funny... The kid could be a child of incest.. Her and her brother have a weird dynamic... Or biracial ...I'll just stop guessing and wait for them to show us

[Avaleigh]

29 minutes ago, mirandroid said:

I know this is out of left field, but with the way that Isabelle keeps looking at Charlotte, it makes me wonder if Charlotte is somehow the baby had out of wedlock. That makes the brother situation all the more squicky.

I'm going to watch the episodes with this in mind. It didn't occur to me until reading your post but now I wonder if you might be on to something. 

Margaret has always preferred Lucy to Charlotte according to Charlotte. Maybe because Lucy is the one who is biologically hers? 

Quigley tells Lady Fitz that her secret grows by the day. It sounds like whoever the child is that Quigley sees them or at least is aware that they're still alive and kicking as opposed to the kid going to some far away family never to be heard from again. Looks wise it fits although casting isn't always all that deep. 

I agree that she does spend a long time staring at her. Maybe she doesn't know for certain but wonders if it could be Charlotte? I agree that this makes the relationship with the Marquess extra squicky. 

On the other hand in this episode, Margaret tells Charlotte that she's very much a Wells woman. 

I wonder if Charlotte or Lucy have ever dared asked about the possibilities of who their fathers might be? I've always been curious about Lucy's father in particular only because Margaret always seemed to favor her and I guessed that it had to do with that on some level.

[HeySandyStrange]

46 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I dint think the ages match up.. I'd gather Isabelle is at least 10 years younger than Maggie wells.. And prob only 10 or so older than Charlotte... But she does look at her funny... The kid could be a child of incest.. Her and her brother have a weird dynamic... Or biracial ...I'll just stop guessing and wait for them to show us

In real life, Liv Tyler and Samantha Morton are the same age, 41...so assuming their characters are of similar ages, and Charlotte is in her early to mid 20s,  it isn't out of the range of possibility the Lady Isabelle could be Charlotte's real mother. Why exactly Quigley would've let Margaret take off with her is another story. It does seem a little melodramatic for this show, though.

[UNOSEZ]

16 minutes ago, HeySandyStrange said:

In real life, Liv Tyler and Samantha Morton are the same age, 41...so assuming their characters are of similar ages, and Charlotte is in her early to mid 20s,  it isn't out of the range of possibility the Lady Isabelle could be Charlotte's real mother. Why exactly Quigley would've let Margaret take off with her is another story. It does seem a little melodramatic for this show, though.

Wow.. Didn't know they make Maggie look older.. But I guess the tough life of a prostitute vs that of a high born lady would account for that... I agree having Isabelle be her mother would be over the top... But Maggie just up and saying she's a wells' woman in this epi felt odd... Ima still say if I had to guess the kid is somewhere else and a bit younger

[Pachengala]

I thought Lady Fitz was conveying attraction to Charlotte; I never even considered it might be maternal!

As far as the girls’ paternity I assumed Lennox was their dad. I’m generally terrible with subtext though, so I wouldn’t be surprised to be wrong.

I guess I’ll have to sit over here alone in my dislike for Emily Lacey. I find her annoying and tedious and I don’t understand why no one reminds her that she didn’t deserve Margaret’s help—she betrayed her! She obviously didn’t deserve to be raped and murdered, but why would she think Margaret would take her back in? 

[dmc]

This show is great, why don't more people know about it?

I am actually not worried about Lucy, Lucy seems fine.  Lord Fallon is the one in danger, either Lucy will kill him or the Lady Fitz's brother will.  The whole flirting charade was to test if Fallon really did secure Margaret's silence.  Fallon failed by being concerned with Lucy meaning Lucy has more power over him than he over her.   If Lucy isn't his pawn than Margaret is not silenced. 

Good for Cherry, she is being marginalized based on her size and now Emily is going to find out...not to underestimate someone who seems harmless. 

I think Lady Fitz has two secrets:  she's gay and was assaulted by her brother resulting in a child.  That's why she's attracted to Charlotte, hates her brother and has an illegitimate kid. 

Lydia Quigley and that sex scene was legit everything

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, Pachengala said:

I guess I’ll have to sit over here alone in my dislike for Emily Lacey. I find her annoying and tedious and I don’t understand why no one reminds her that she didn’t deserve Margaret’s help—she betrayed her! She obviously didn’t deserve to be raped and murdered, but why would she think Margaret would take her back in? 

My issue with Emily is that she's always been kind of mean and doesn't get along well with others. She was the odd one out when she was at Margaret's. She was rude to the other girls from the first episode and acted like she was better than they were because she was the top earner. The dynamic didn't really change when she went over to Quigley in terms of making friends. Once she got her own place, she wanted to get a bunch of girls that she could "boss around" and take advantage of instead of maybe wanting to run a place where the girls could have a better life than she experienced in the places she used to work. She insults Cherry any time they're in the same room together and is likely going to be angry and confused when she eventually finds out that Cherry is Team Quigley without ever considering that Cherry might have been a loyal ally (and employee) if she'd treated her with compassion and respect. Just the fact that she's only willing to pay Cherry half of what she would pay a regular sized girl is enough for me to understand why Cherry isn't interested in being loyal to her.

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I think Lady Fitz has two secrets:  she's gay and was assaulted by her brother resulting in a child.  That's why she's attracted to Charlotte, hates her brother and has an illegitimate kid. 

Lydia Quigley and that sex scene was legit everything

The reason I don't think that the child is an incest baby is that the Marquess doesn't seem to know about it. This sort of secret would ruin him socially as well so in that sense, Lady Fitz would have some power to keep her brother in check. My guess is that he doesn't know about the baby and Lady Fitz doesn't want him to because she doesn't want him to have any more leverage over her.

I am intrigued by the Marquess telling Charlotte that his sister has been "lucky" in love. Based on what we've seen this doesn't appear to be the case at all. Whoever the father is, he isn't around now, and she's currently alone without any prospects. It doesn't make sense that he would be referring to himself unless he's 100% batshit. Even if we were to run with the idea that this was some reciprocated love affair between siblings (it's obviously not--it couldn't be more apparent that this guy makes her skin crawl) by no stretch of the imagination could anyone interpret that as "lucky".

I considered that maybe the baby could be a royal bastard but the royals haven't appeared in this at all. Also, would that necessarily be kept a secret? Wasn't it basically standard practice to make sure that a mistress was married so there wouldn't officially be a scandal? I'm thinking of someone like Lady Melbourne who had five kids and only one or two were actually her husband's. (One kid was the son of the Prince of Wales.) Lady Jersey is another one who comes to mind.

I think the strangest part about Lady Fitz's situation is that she's remained unmarried all of this time.

If she's a lesbian, why no snarky comments from her brother? He seems like he'd be the type to make her feel uncomfortable about it.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Avaleigh

[dmc]

1 minute ago, Avaleigh said:

My issue with Emily is that she's always been kind of mean and doesn't get along well with others. She was the odd one out when she was at Margaret's. She was rude to the other girls from the first episode and acted like she was better than they were because she was the top earner. The dynamic didn't really change when she went over to Quigley in terms of making friends. Once she got her own place, she wanted to get a bunch of girls that she could "boss around" and take advantage of instead of maybe wanting to run a place where the girls could have a better life than she experienced in the places she used to work. She insults Cherry any time they're in the same room together and is likely going to be angry and confused when she eventually finds out that Cherry is Team Quigley without ever considering that Cherry might have been a loyal ally (and employee) if she'd treated her with compassion and respect. Just the fact that she's only willing to pay Cherry half of what she would pay a regular sized girl is enough for me to understand why Cherry isn't interested in being loyal to her.

The reason I don't think that the child is an incest baby is that the Marquess doesn't seem to know about it. This sort of secret would ruin him socially as well so in that sense, Lady Fitz would have some power to keep her brother in check. My guess is that he doesn't know about the baby and Lady Fitz doesn't want him to because she doesn't want him to have any more leverage over her.

I am intrigued by the Marquess telling Charlotte that his sister has been "lucky" in love. Based on what we've seen this doesn't appear to be the case at all. Whoever the father is, he isn't around now, and she's currently alone without any prospects. It doesn't make sense that he would be referring to himself unless he's 100% batshit. Even if we were to run with the idea that this was some reciprocated love affair between siblings (it's obviously not--it couldn't be more apparent that this guy makes her skin crawl) by no stretch of the imagination could anyone interpret that as "lucky".

I considered that maybe the baby could be a royal bastard but the royals haven't appeared in this at all. Also, would that necessarily be kept a secret? Wasn't it basically standard practice to make sure that a mistress was married so there wouldn't officially be a scandal? I'm thinking of someone like Lady Melbourne who had five kids and only one or two were actually her husbands. (One kid was the son of the Prince of Wales.) Lady Jersey is another one who comes to mind.

I think the strangest part about Lady Fitz's situation is that she's remained unmarried all of this time.

If she's a lesbian, why no snarky comments from her brother? He seems like he'd be the type to make her feel uncomfortable about it.

Maybe he doesn't know the baby survived. 

[OtterMommy]

3 hours ago, mirandroid said:

I know this is out of left field, but with the way that Isabelle keeps looking at Charlotte, it makes me wonder if Charlotte is somehow the baby had out of wedlock. That makes the brother situation all the more squicky.

FYI - I started a Speculation Thread to go into this further.  There are some interesting ideas here and it will work best if we discuss them outside of an episode thread.  I have my own thoughts, which I will post there!

[snowwhyte]

Lord Fallon might come to regret teaching Lucy to use a sword considering what she did to Sir George. They are definitely Checkov's swords.

I read too many historical romance novels as a teen and part of me wishes that Lord Fallon wasn't a murdering rapist and that he would fall for Lucy, become a better man and make her happy. If we ignore what we know of his character his interactions with Lucy could be considered quite romantic this episode. 

[LadyintheLoop]

I'm imagining the opposite -- Lucy goes over to the dark side.

I've wondered all along why Lydia would have let Margaret keep baby Charlotte.

Seriously, Noah Webster? Loved his dictionary.

[snowwhyte]

7 minutes ago, LadyintheLoop said:

I'm imagining the opposite -- Lucy goes over to the dark side.

Lucy does have a lot of anger and we know she is capable of violence. Fallon did seem to be encouraging that side of her which I found slightly odd since his initial attraction to Lucy was because she was comparatively innocent and reluctant.

Despite her issues Lucy does seem to have a kind nature and any violence she displays tends to be in self-defence. Lord Fallon enjoys using violence against innocents and maybe also wants to corrupt Lucy for fun or for leverage. I am eager to see how their relationship plays out.

[pamplemousse]

2 hours ago, snowwhyte said:

Lucy does have a lot of anger and we know she is capable of violence. Fallon did seem to be encouraging that side of her which I found slightly odd since his initial attraction to Lucy was because she was comparatively innocent and reluctant.

Despite her issues Lucy does seem to have a kind nature and any violence she displays tends to be in self-defence. Lord Fallon enjoys using violence against innocents and maybe also wants to corrupt Lucy for fun or for leverage. I am eager to see how their relationship plays out.

I guess maybe he enjoys all sides and facets of her and who she was and is now, which would indicate that he's the perfect guy for her since he accepts and likes all of her...but nah, he's a serial killer so a very bad option for Lucy.

Their relationship is fascinating, especially how the balance of emotional power between them is unclear and seems to swing back and forth from moment to moment, but I really hope it doesn't turn out romantic.

[Riplet68]

Lucy is gonna slip up somewhere. She just doesnt have the experience to keep Fallon in check.  She was shaken by the jerk at the party, and she doesn’t have an arsenal of come backs.  Charlotte is always ready with a ready retort and seems to know how to play the game.

glad Ma and Pa are back together.

[kieyra]

Really enjoying this season. I was a little disoriented at first with all the shifting allegiances, but this episode knocked it out of the park. (Everyone looked stunning, too.)

(I don’t want to believe the Charlotte = secret baby theory, but the casting of Liv Tyler makes me wonder. She looks more like Charlotte than Maggie does. If Quigley knows the secret, that means she was involved. Involved means she handled (something) with the baby. Like giving it to someone to raise? Yes, Maggie called Charlotte a Wells woman this episode ... but then Lucy points out that Maggie didn’t follow Charlotte all over town like she follows Lucy. 

In short, I don’t want this soap opera twist, but they very well may be doing a decent job of setting it up. That said, it didn’t occur to me until I came to this thread.)

Am I the only one who looks at the Marquess and sees Mac from Green Wing? (British hospital comedy, he played a romantic lead.) It’s making it very hard for me to take his villain shtick seriously. I think it’s clear he’s a Big Bad for this season, though. If not THE big bad. I have no idea what they’re doing with Lord Fallon. I’m going to guess some corners of the internet are quite smitten with him after this week’s episode. (Note to self: do not go on Reddit.) 

(I kind of want someone to hook up with the bespectacled justice, though. He’s my kind of nerd. If Violet swung that direction I’d probably be shipping them in some sort of Jane Eyre redux fashion.)

[showme]

Lord Fallon is actually kind of hot, especially in his wig. He seems quite smitten with Lucy, will he actually fall for her? It would be interesting if his prey becomes his master.

[pamplemousse]

1 minute ago, showme said:

Lord Fallon is actually kind of hot, especially in his wig. He seems quite smitten with Lucy, will he actually fall for her? It would be interesting if his prey becomes his master.

It's interesting how his wig has changed from season 1 haha. It's a more natural hair color (although why he opted for a pale blond one instead of one closer to his actual hair color...?) and not as bumped up high and less powdered. Funny how close-cropped his natural hair is...weren't the wigs back then super itchy so the men kept their hair very short? Also, he doesn't rouge and powder up his face as much as the other men, it seems. As always the hair and costuming department on this show knocks it out of the park and are, I think, reflecting some of the changing fashion and style from the first season to this one -- more natural colored wigs, less powder, jewel tones (except Quigley and her girls are still clinging onto the pastel palette in their clothing).

I didn't like Lucy's hairstyle when they went to that evening gathering, it looked like a precariously tilted croquembouche. She was very pretty the day after the party though in her half pinned back hairstyle.

Why is it that when Charlotte wears a patch she looks utterly charming but when one of the aristocratic males do, they look silly? Oh right because Charlotte is stunning and can carry off anything.

I don't need 10 seasons of that other Hulu show, I need at least 10 seasons of this one. 

[fresiaa]

14 hours ago, dmc said:

I am intrigued by the Marquess telling Charlotte that his sister has been "lucky" in love. Based on what we've seen this doesn't appear to be the case at all. Whoever the father is, he isn't around now, and she's currently alone without any prospects. It doesn't make sense that he would be referring to himself unless he's 100% batshit. Even if we were to run with the idea that this was some reciprocated love affair between siblings (it's obviously not--it couldn't be more apparent that this guy makes her skin crawl) by no stretch of the imagination could anyone interpret that as "lucky".

I considered that maybe the baby could be a royal bastard but the royals haven't appeared in this at all. Also, would that necessarily be kept a secret? Wasn't it basically standard practice to make sure that a mistress was married so there wouldn't officially be a scandal? I'm thinking of someone like Lady Melbourne who had five kids and only one or two were actually her husbands. (One kid was the son of the Prince of Wales.) Lady Jersey is another one who comes to mind.

I think the strangest part about Lady Fitz's situation is that she's remained unmarried all of this time.

Because because because.... I didn't want to write this 2 weeks ago, because it is such a trope... 

It can all be explained (Such a cheap ploy) with the explanation she married the crown prince when he was an energetic wild teenager, they eloped and therefor had a legal child. Having a mistress is okay, bigamy not, not even for the king, who is head of church. And for a crown prince to marry without consent of the king and parliament is treason. Wasn't there a young princess in England that was executed with her husband when they secretly married? I will have to google that.  Edit: I had Elizabeth I and Jane Grey mashed up here, the first questioned on sexual relation and her co-accused executed, the other second and her teenage husband executed for taking the throne. 

That is also why Lady Fitz can't marry someone else, neither on conscience, religion or legal grounds (bigamy). Also she would want to remain faithful to the first marriage in order to be able to plead "virtue and innocence" in case it comes out (avoid the Tower on treason), and strengthen the case for the child as heir.  Lady Fitz said "I will be dead when it comes out".

She is "lucky" because 1) a prince chose her, and 2) now as king will do anything to keep the secret. A privilege to be used sparingly and with tact, of course.

Anyway, I don't think they will keep it a secret for us very long.

 

My interpret of the brooding looks from Lady Fitz to Charlotte is lesbian desire.

 

On another note, I missed this info from the show: Was the Marquess part of the killing group in the first season? Is he part of it now?

Edited July 26, 2018 by fresiaa

[UNOSEZ]

24 minutes ago, fresiaa said:

 

On another note, I missed this info from the show: Was the Marquess part of the killing group in the first season? Is he part of it now?

Based on the way he speaks.. He's been a part of it... He just wasn't shown last year

[Elivesta29]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

Based on the way he speaks.. He's been a part of it... He just wasn't shown last year

Yes, it was implied last season there were more members of the Spartans - Fallon was the only one last season's "justice guy" knew of. 

 

Harlot's as a show tends to surprise me - so I can't say how I think Lucy and Fallon's relationship will go. I got the impression last season he liked the idea of a corrupting Lucy with all his metaphors of Hades and Persephone. I can't see Lucy killing Fallon though - I just can't see her getting away with that twice. 

 

I'm not sure about Charlotte not being Margaret's, what motivation would a rather ambitious, relatively self serving bawd have to take in a child that wasn't hers? When Margaret and Nancy escaped Quigley's, taking a child who wasn't either of theirs seems a pretty burdensome thing to do. We know Charlotte was born under Quigley's roof, and it seems Lucy wasn't(as it hasn't been mentioned and Quigley's shown no interest in Lucy, but plenty in Charlotte) maybe Margaret associated Charlotte with Quigley, and perhaps she had less time to bond with Charlotte in comparison to Lucy. 

 

I don't think Lennox was either Lucy or Charlotte's father, I'd have thought if they were Margaret might've tried to use that in her favour when trying to get him to invest in her house. Unless any man was paying to see Margaret exclusively at the time of the girl's conceptions - I don't think she could know who their fathers were. Even if she had an idea, my guess is their attitudes would've been similar to Fanny's constable - who told her she couldn't know he was Mercy's father, and it's true. 

[kieyra]

2 hours ago, fresiaa said:

Because because because.... I didn't want to write this 2 weeks ago, because it is such a trope... 

It can all be explained (Such a cheap ploy) with the explanation she married the crown prince when he was an energetic wild teenager, they eloped and therefor had a legal child. Having a mistress is okay, bigamy not, not even for the king, who is head of church. And for a crown prince to marry without consent of the king and parliament is treason. Wasn't there a young princess in England that was executed with her husband when they secretly married? I will have to google that.  Edit: I had Elizabeth I and Jane Grey mashed up here, the first questioned on sexual relation and her co-accused executed, the other second and her teenage husband executed for taking the throne. 

That is also why Lady Fitz can't marry someone else, neither on conscience, religion or legal grounds (bigamy). Also she would want to remain faithful to the first marriage in order to be able to plead "virtue and innocence" in case it comes out (avoid the Tower on treason), and strengthen the case for the child as heir.  Lady Fitz said "I will be dead when it comes out".

She is "lucky" because 1) a prince chose her, and 2) now as king will do anything to keep the secret. A privilege to be used sparingly and with tact, of course.

Anyway, I don't think they will keep it a secret for us very long.

 

My interpret of the brooding looks from Lady Fitz to Charlotte is lesbian desire.

 

On another note, I missed this info from the show: Was the Marquess part of the killing group in the first season? Is he part of it now?

You might have also absorbed this story at some point: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Katherine_Grey#Second_marriage

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Elivesta29 said:

don't think Lennox was either Lucy or Charlotte's father, I'd have thought if they were Margaret might've tried to use that in her favour when trying to get him to invest in her house. Unless any man was paying to see Margaret exclusively at the time of the girl's conceptions -

I agree.. Because then wouldn't the American girl's kids( the black lady who liked Mr. north who's name escapes me at the moment) be half-siblings to Charlotte and Lucy.. I feel like that woulda been at least mentioned once.. Plus as I think Charlotte might have been older than the son.. Couldn't she have been an heir? 

[rubinia]

19 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

If she's a lesbian, why no snarky comments from her brother? He seems like he'd be the type to make her feel uncomfortable about it.

 

At the pleasure gardens he made some comments like, "You and my sister have been playing a game for girls only," which implied to me that he suspected some attraction on his sister's part. I definitely don't think Charlotte is her daughter.

[OtterMommy]

3 hours ago, Elivesta29 said:

I'm not sure about Charlotte not being Margaret's, what motivation would a rather ambitious, relatively self serving bawd have to take in a child that wasn't hers? When Margaret and Nancy escaped Quigley's, taking a child who wasn't either of theirs seems a pretty burdensome thing to do. We know Charlotte was born under Quigley's roof, and it seems Lucy wasn't(as it hasn't been mentioned and Quigley's shown no interest in Lucy, but plenty in Charlotte) maybe Margaret associated Charlotte with Quigley, and perhaps she had less time to bond with Charlotte in comparison to Lucy. 

1

Replying in the speculation thread...

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

I agree.. Because then wouldn't the American girl's kids( the black lady who liked Mr. north who's name escapes me at the moment) be half-siblings to Charlotte and Lucy.. I feel like that woulda been at least mentioned once.. Plus as I think Charlotte might have been older than the son.. Couldn't she have been an heir? 

Never mind. Got the characters mixed up. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by ferjy

[ferjy]

On 7/25/2018 at 6:29 AM, pamplemousse said:

Did Fallon plant Liddington's button in Kitty's hair? Because I always thought that was surprisingly sloppy for Fallon to leave his button on her body and he seems smarter and more careful than that. Or do all the Spartans have those buttons as some sign of their membership in the Virgin Hunt Club (shudder)? Now it's been pretty much confirmed that the Marquess of Blayne is the leader or at least high up in VHC with the way he was talking to Fallon, never seen the latter so deferential to anyone before. Speaking of, the Marquess can go choke on a glass of port for treating Charlotte that way, manhandling her out of the card room, and then taking his anger out on her. Also, he was such an asshole for making Liddington flirt with Lucy to get a rise out of Fallon. Yes, Fallon is a serial killer with crazy eyes, but the Marquess seems way more dangerous and creepy to me, his manipulations, be they large or small, are just very cold and twisted (I feel sorry for poor Lady Fitz).

I feel like I say this after every episode but...I'm very worried for Lucy. 

Quigley's surprised girlish laughter and expression after the Chief Justice said he preferred her was completely adorable. She's evil but she's my favorite.

Every episode always seems far too short and I just want to spend more time with these characters, they're all fascinating and so entertaining even down to the smallest roles.

Best line of the episode: "Pretty little fuckpuppet."  (Emily Lacey is the best.)

Was it Fallon that killed Kitty? I thought he got Liddington to do it. Didn’t he have an altercation with Liddington after, saying Liddington was supposed to scare them not actually kill the girl? I may have to go back and refresh my memory but I seem to remember something like that. 

[pamplemousse]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

Was it Fallon that killed Kitty? I thought he got Liddington to do it. Didn’t he have an altercation with Liddington after, saying Liddington was supposed to scare them not actually kill the girl? I may have to go back and refresh my memory but I seem to remember something like that. 

I thought Fallon was chastising Liddington for his inept work at trying to scare Margaret and her girls with that bloody heart at the front door theatrics. And then I thought Fallon killed Kitty to finish the job of scaring Margaret that Liddington wasn't able to accomplish. Let me know if upon rewatch, you find out for sure.

[dmc]

44 minutes ago, pamplemousse said:

I thought Fallon was chastising Liddington for his inept work at trying to scare Margaret and her girls with that bloody heart at the front door theatrics. And then I thought Fallon killed Kitty to finish the job of scaring Margaret that Liddington wasn't able to accomplish. Let me know if upon rewatch, you find out for sure.

This is what happened.  Liddington was supposed to scare her and blew it. 

I can't picture Margaret taking a child that isn't her own to raise unless something is in it for her.   Since she clearly isn't benefiting, why would she do this?  Everything I have seen said, Mrs. Quigley is the only one benefitting from this secret.

But I would believe it was Amelia????

 

Amelia and her mother have a connection to Mrs.  Quigley as well and her mother does seem like the type to take in a child. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by dmc

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, pamplemousse said:

I thought Fallon was chastising Liddington for his inept work at trying to scare Margaret and her girls with that bloody heart at the front door theatrics. And then I thought Fallon killed Kitty to finish the job of scaring Margaret that Liddington wasn't able to accomplish. Let me know if upon rewatch, you find out for sure.

Yes, that's it. Thanks for the refresher. Liddington has distinctive eyes which we saw through the mask, that stayed with me, but I'd forgotten about the heart. They didn't show who dropped Kitty's body at the doorstep. So Fallon would have done it, not wanting to leave the deed to another lackey of his. Got it now!  I may need another reminder next week. :-D

Edited July 26, 2018 by ferjy

[Riplet68]

Whoever killed kitty had originally wanted Lucy, only took kitty cause Lucy was elsewhere.  I don’t remember who had pulled up at the door.  Whoever that was is the killer

[ferjy]

1 hour ago, Riplet68 said:

Whoever killed kitty had originally wanted Lucy, only took kitty cause Lucy was elsewhere.  I don’t remember who had pulled up at the door.  Whoever that was is the killer

Well that was Fallon. I don't think he intended to kill Lucy. When he saw Kitty, he probably decided on the spur of the moment to use her as a warning. I think he intends to keep Lucy as leverage against Margaret.

[UNOSEZ]

5 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I think he intends to keep Lucy as leverage against Margaret.

He told the creepy brother that she's a hostage.. But then he saw him she ordered Lord Fallon around and started to wonder who was really in charge of who.. And I'm not entirely sure.. What I am sure if is that those two probably aren't good for each other ( Lucy&Fallon) 

[Riplet68]

Not when Lucy did go with him (and I think the large girl was standing with her) a couple episodes ago.  It was night or dusk, kitty was standing at the door and the guy asked for Lucy, kitty sad she wasn’t there, but that she (kitty would be happy to help him). The guy said she looked enough like Lucy to work 

[ferjy]

3 minutes ago, Riplet68 said:

Not when Lucy did go with him (and I think the large girl was standing with her) a couple episodes ago.  It was night or dusk, kitty was standing at the door and the guy asked for Lucy, kitty sad she wasn’t there, but that she (kitty would be happy to help him). The guy said she looked enough like Lucy to work 

Yes, that was Fallon. What he said to Kitty was “You’re just as lovely.”

[Riplet68]

Just re watched the scene: I was wrong. Wish it wasn’t him. I need to go back and watch last season to renew my hate for him 

[tennisgurl]

On 7/25/2018 at 9:06 PM, showme said:

Lord Fallon is actually kind of hot, especially in his wig.

I think he might be the only man on this show who can kind of rock the white powder wig, whole Charlotte is the only women. Although, I am warming to Liv Tyler's wig game. I kind of giggled at him telling the other guy how Lucy is "under his thrall" while she just traipses around not giving a shit. I mean, thats what he likes apparently, but its pretty clear that Lucy is doing this as her job, and nothing more. Although, I am kind of interested in where their relationship goes. Lucy clearly has a dark side, and might like being around someone who is alright with that.

You know, the justice guy might be a whinny self riotous twerp, but he did actually listen to Emily and Amelia, and did try to arrest Mrs. Quigley, despite her political power. Maybe he could actually be some help down the line.

Really loving this season!

[Ripley68]

I'm rewatching season one, on episode 5.  Lucy REALLY did not like/was in pain with all the interactions with men that I've seen (except the stable boy).  That's a HUGE 180 for this season.  Also, the show is much better with out whiny fancy pants on the show.  I forgot how much I really disliked him.    Margaret and Wills had the best relationship, I hope it gets repaired.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm really enjoying this season a lot, although at this point Quigley hardly needs to be paying Cherry or Nell or anyone to keep tabs on all the other women the way they're talking so audibly about plotting against her and meeting so openly in public places to discuss it.  I wanted to yell at Charlotte and Isabella to maybe step outside or do anything else rather than stand around Quigley's drawing room talking about it where even the camera angles suggested somebody was watching.  They've apparently also given up any pretense that everyone and their dog doesn't know exactly why Charlotte is still in Quigley's house.

I'm fascinated by the ideas about female desire and sex work that were running through this one.  The Marquess comments that Charlotte is the only harlot he's ever encountered who seems to genuinely like sex, despite her world-weary attitude about it.  Isabella can be upset that Charlotte had sex with her brother after agreeing that she wouldn't but hey, 100 pounds is 100 pounds and this is what I do for a living.  The fighter guy whose name I can't remember is disappointed that Harriet didn't seem to enjoy the sex he just paid for only to be told she's not being paid to enjoy it.  Quigley was almost bashfully surprised that the justice wanted her instead of her much younger girls, admits it's been awhile, and either really did have a good time or gave a very good impression of it.  Emily takes pride in being known for being the best at it without any commentary beyond that.  Lucy, who clearly wasn't enjoying it much last season, is put in this episode in the odd position of being a paid companion who has to beg for it. 

I'm interested to see where exactly they're going with the Fallon-Lucy relationship.  Fallon brags to the Marquess that Lucy is his hostage against any further issues with Margaret.  But he pretty much lets her walk all over him in public and doesn't do anything to curb her beyond withholding sex, I assume to make her pursue him now that she's already agreed to be kept.  On the face of it, going from last season where he was relentlessly chasing her with his heavyhanded Persephone and Hades and the pomegranates allegory to this season trying to make her want him and being turned on by swordplay and his realizing she has a "violent streak" (Oh, buddy, that would be comical if we didn't also know you're part of a murderous group of men who brutalizes and kills young virgins.) seems like a stretch, but it's entertaining so for now we'll go with it.  I'll admit the whole storyline about the very bad boys club didn't do much for me last season, but now I'm actually interested in seeing the scope of it widen as we meet more of those higher up men who almost certainly had a part in it.

Love that Emily and Harriet seem to be inching more toward a partnership as Emily realizes that Harriet has good ideas and a good head for this sort of thing while Charles is mostly useless in just hanging about the house.  Love how once one person saw potential in Nell as "something different," they all suddenly did.

[chaifan]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:22 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I'm fascinated by the ideas about female desire and sex work that were running through this one.  The Marquess comments that Charlotte is the only harlot he's ever encountered who seems to genuinely like sex, despite her world-weary attitude about it.  Isabella can be upset that Charlotte had sex with her brother after agreeing that she wouldn't but hey, 100 pounds is 100 pounds and this is what I do for a living. 

 

I thought that Isabella's request/demand whatever you want to call it that Charlotte stay away from her brother was incredibly naive.  Charlotte is not in any position to say no, at least not to someone of his position.  She'd risk being turned out of Quigley's for it, and possibly be physically harmed.  Was she really paid 100 pounds by the Marquess?  I've been trying to keep track of who gets paid what.  Lucy negotiated up from 400 pounds to 500 pounds, but that's for an entire year.  I assume she also gets all expenses paid (dresses, wigs, etc.), but still, that's quite a bit for that time.  And how much of Charlotte's 100 pounds went to Quigley? 

Maybe it's the geek in me, but I'd like to see an economic thread to just discuss what people make, how much things cost, etc.  Emily got paid something like six shillings and a piece of cheese, or something of that sort from one of her clients. 

[nodorothyparker]

When Isabella comes to see Charlotte at Quigley's and immediate starts raving at her for "betraying" her by having sex with the Marquess, Charlotte's answer is "He paid me a hundred guineas."  A guinea was a coin worth a pound and a shilling in 1700s money, so Isabella basically would have been expecting her to turn down well north of the average working person's yearly salary.  I suppose that fits in with what we've been shown, that Charlotte is considered a cut well above the average harlot and the upper crust men who patronize her would be expected to pay accordingly. 

There were 21 shillings to a guinea, so Emily's cull was definitely lowballing (hee) her after services rendered.  In an earlier episode we saw Harriet and Emily arguing over whether Emily's cut per cull should be one guineas or two.  We can certainly start an economics thread to try to parse some of this out.

[Riplet68]

Just watched last season again.  When quigley got Charlotte out of jail, she said charlotte could keep all her earnings becUse just her noteriety would help quigley. Charlotte gets paid so much more because she’s supposed to be entertaining and witty.  Lucy gets paid so much because of charlottes legacy, and because she looks so freaking innocent.  She hasn’t earned that high of a contract yet.

[LizzyBennet]

On 7/26/2018 at 9:21 AM, rubinia said:

At the pleasure gardens he made some comments like, "You and my sister have been playing a game for girls only," which implied to me that he suspected some attraction on his sister's part. I definitely don't think Charlotte is her daughter.

Yeah, he also called it “a game of flats” which is apparently a term for lesbianism during the 18th century. 

He very clearly wanted Charlotte because he thinks his sister wants her also. Lady Fitz calls him on it to get under his skin when she says, “you seem to think I have some unnatural lust for Charlotte, perhaps I should find out”.

[rubinia]

22 hours ago, LizzyBennet said:

Yeah, he also called it “a game of flats” which is apparently a term for lesbianism during the 18th century. 

He very clearly wanted Charlotte because he thinks his sister wants her also. Lady Fitz calls him on it to get under his skin when she says, “you seem to think I have some unnatural lust for Charlotte, perhaps I should find out”.

The “game of flats” I interpreted as referring to two “flat” genitals rubbing together—as opposed to one flat, and one pointy. So yeah, basically what you said :)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

So are all of the houses/bawds allowed to take their girls into these parties or do they need an invitation from one of the lords? I don't know if I remember Margaret taking her girls to parties like that in S1. Then again, times are different now. Lydia's house is officially closed and Margaret needs extra money to pay for the broken windows so I guess anything goes.

The one thing I will say in Hunt's defense (as far as finding the man who killed Kitty goes) is that all Margaret's house gave him was a button. I don't think anyone expected him to visit every tailor in London asking who had buttons like that on their clothing. CSI: 18th Century!

While I understand Charlotte recruiting people to help in her quest to take down Lydia, she really needs to be a bit more discreet. When she and Isabella were talking about hating Lydia, I was like GIRLS, SHE JUST WENT INTO THE NEXT ROOM. Maybe try to keep it quiet with that kind of stuff when you're in her house?

Lydia is vindictive enough to want Nell to poison Charles, so Charlotte, Margaret, Emily, hell, EVERYONE needs to learn to be a little bit sneakier and a lot quieter. You know, like Cherry. Although I'm disappointed that she is Lydia's newest spy, I can see why she's doing it. She has no loyalty to Emily and wants Charles all to herself. For a woman fending for herself, there's no reason for her NOT to do it. She is looking at the big picture for herself which means getting rid of Emily so she has Charles for herself. She isn't thinking about the repercussions for anyone else in the house like Harriet and her children, let alone for Margaret's house (not that she has any loyalty to them either).

When Fallon was teaching Lucy to fence, I started thinking that he was going to use this to set her up for something like murdering someone. He's been so creepy that he is not at all attractive to me so (1) I was surprised by how much less creepy he seemed without the wig and (2) I was extra creeped out when they did the Princess Bride "drop your sword" shot with him.

Dodds yelling "TALLY HO!" while having sex with Lydia totally cracked me up!

[rollacoaster]

On 8/1/2018 at 8:13 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Fallon was teaching Lucy to fence, I started thinking that he was going to use this to set her up for something like murdering someone. He's been so creepy that he is not at all attractive to me so (1) I was surprised by how much less creepy he seemed without the wig and (2) I was extra creeped out when they did the Princess Bride "drop your sword" shot with him.

I was put in the mind of an 18th Century Joker and Harley Quinn. 

Also: A strange question. Does Margaret employ any servants to do mundane chores like cleaning, helping the women get dressed, do hair and makeup, etc? Or do they all just help each other out and take turns doing chores?