S01.E09: Woman Down

[formerlyfreedom]

Plum receives a cryptic message from an old friend, propelling her to find answers behind enemy lines.

[Ottis]

While I appreciated the fact the show walked down the list of all the excuses Plum (and, metaphorically, real life rape victims) used as to why she she didn’t want to press charges in her assault, I appreciated less the way her list went from realistic to ridiculous, undermining the whole point. She didn’t want to hurt his feelings? Really? I’m sure some small number of women feel that way, but adding it just made the scene ridiculous. It felt more like the writers were straining to make a point than anything realistic based on what we saw and know of Plum.

And she is still a virgin? So... did the guy have his pants down or not? It’s still an assault, and yet to Plum’s point, it wouldn’t be viewed the same. 

Yep, more men kill women than women kill men. No doubt, men are stronger, etc. so let’s try to dig a little deeper shall we? Let’s look at data about the men who who this. I’m betting there are some similarities. Probably a better route than blaming all men. 

So some women kidnap Plum and hold her hostage, and ... it’s OK in service of the story. If men had done that, wonder how that would be treated on this show?

Why is patrolling an abandoned factory treated like infiltrating the front lines in a war? Who are they going to run into? Bums? Cops? Security? I suppose there are gangs, but if armed gangs find them the women will need a lot more weapons to win that. Better to stay unseen, vs. wandering around with a flashlight. Makes me wonder how they captured and killed the men. 

And Jennifer thinks Julia is white? What? 

So Julia’s sisters not only want out, they will finger Julia? That seems ... harsh. 

Dominic is a loser because... he bent department rules to get confidential info? What? Was he drink or high at some point? I don't get whatever the back story is. If anything, he seems *too* dedicated to his job, so the reason that would upset his wife and cause her to leave would not be the reason that would upset his boss/higher up/relative.

Edited July 24, 2018 by Ottis

[voiceover]

So: of all the irritating crap that continues to annoy, I think tonight's winner was that "Princess" moniker the Jenny-gals bestowed on Plum.  Hey, I guess it's better than "Entitled Bitch", but only just.  First the magazine; then Verbena & co.; then the disaster dates; then the rapist; now Jennifer, beating Plum down, making sure she knows her place!

Obviously with one more ep, hope springs eternal; but then I thought that of Girlfriend's Guide to Divorce, and boy was I wrong.

All these supposed empowerment series the past few years, and my takeaways are Miriam Shor!(Younger), houseporn! (GGtD), the return of Adam Rothenberg! and Joy Nash! -- a very appealing actress who frankly deserved better  than this.

[ichbin]

There's only one episode left so I will watch the season to the end, but the story has been losing more of my interest every week.  I don't need to have likable characters, but they need to be interesting and that interest needs to build and not wane as the series progresses.  This show is all over the place and I find myself no longer caring how it plays out.  At this point I would rather be watching a show about Kitty and Stanley clawing at each other in the corporate world.

[voiceover]

I saw that next week's ep is referred to as "Season", as opposed to "Series", finale.  Does this mean, they're hoping for Season 2?  I guess the book fans would know better than I, how much story is left to tell after next Monday.

[BooBear]

7 hours ago, Ottis said:

And she is still a virgin? So... did the guy have his pants down or not? It’s still an assault, and yet to Plum’s point, it wouldn’t be viewed the same. 

It feels like the show is trolling us at this point. Plum is upset like it was but then seems to admit that it wasn't. 

I will say I thought this was an improvement. Plum was back to being semi normal... she admitted a lot to herself this episode.. like Dominic was the one who really hurt her... and she was smart to never go back to Verbenia.  I was glad she admitted surgery wouldn't change her.  I also feel like they admitted her value to Jennifer was in being a writer who could persuade the masses to their cause.  But... there was so much wrong.

• Plum why did you go to Jennifer if you weren't ready to kill. Did you think it would be sewing classes? They have killed numerous people... they aren't going to let you in and then "send you home". 
• The most likely way Jennifer would get caught is by someone turning them in... Julia's sisters were completely expected. Though the moment they told Julia - I expected the next scene would be her at the FBI.
• Dominic's storyline confuses me. They seem to be implying he is a loser or mess up in someway but then seem to be implying he is what Plum really wants and will get, him.  But if he is a loser, I don't want him to? 
• I truly don't care about Daisy Chain now that Plum isn't there anymore. Who cares if Kitty is CEO? 
• I know i have to stop drifting off but how did Plum's hair get cut?  Did I miss a scene?

Quote

Why is patrolling an abandoned factory treated like infiltrating the front lines in a war? Who are they going to run into? Bums? Cops? Security? I suppose there are gangs, but if armed gangs find them the women will need a lot more weapons to win that. Better to stay unseen, vs. wandering around with a flashlight. Makes me wonder how they captured and killed the men.

That was ridiculous. Not to mention the majority of the activity has been in new york but their HQ is in Detroit? Man that is a long ride and also, a great way to have some flat foot on the interstate find you traveling back and forth. 

[Iguessnot]

Yep, Julia was supposed to be passing as white. Only way that stupid scene made sense.

Several times when Sana was talking to Verena and during Plum's babbling, they ramped up their baby voices to level 10. Something else to piss me off about this show. 

That childish hang up message to Dominic was embarrassing. The whole show is an embarrassment.

Plum is straight out hallucinating her Leela (forgot her name) conversations. This must (should) have major implications in the storyline. 

Edited July 24, 2018 by Iguessnot

[JudyObscure]

12 hours ago, voiceover said:

So: of all the irritating crap that continues to annoy, I think tonight's winner was that "Princess" moniker the Jenny-gals bestowed on Plum.  Hey, I guess it's better than "Entitled Bitch", but only just.  

Yes, I think that's probably what put me over the edge between, "this show is all over the place but kind of interesting," into, "I really hate this now, it has zero subtlety or sense." 

It's turned into an excuse for a bunch of self-righteous hatred.   Women hating all men and black people hating all whites, without anyone taking a split second to get to know the individuals or even to admit that they might not all be the same.  Plus the assumption that people who are historically oppressed can do no wrong themselves -- they are all perfect, I guess.

28 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

 

Several times when Sana was talking to Verena and during Plum's babbling, they ramped up their baby voices to level 10. Something else to piss me off about this show. 

That childish hang up message to Dominic was embarrassing. The whole show is an embarrassment.

 

You're so right. I'm now hoping no one is watching and it wont get second season.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I saw that next week's ep is referred to as "Season", as opposed to "Series", finale.  Does this mean, they're hoping for Season 2?  I guess the book fans would know better than I, how much story is left to tell after next Monday.

It may mean they hope for a Season 2, but it doesn't actually guarantee there will be one.  As to the book, I've never read it, but The Handmaid's Tale, with some success, has expanded well beyond the original source novel.

Quote

Yep, Julia was supposed to be passing as white. Only way that stupid scene made sense.

Maybe it's just because I know the actress from all her other work, but that's just a big fail to me.  I remember they made a big deal about her taking off her make up, but I don't see how she could pass for white.

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, Iguessnot said:

Yep, Julia was supposed to be passing as white. Only way that stupid scene made sense.

Is it possible that has been what the show intended? I just assumed it was a failure of intel by Jennifer. Or some kind of aside that was meant to show Jennifer doesn't do enough due diligence to really have a clear view. Because at no point in this show have I ever thought Julia was white, and I don't know who would.

1 hour ago, Iguessnot said:

Plum is straight out hallucinating her Leela (forgot her name) conversations. This must (should) have major implications in the storyline.

Mr. Robot style, right? I never get how those kind of hallucinations work. They are meant as metaphors for the real character thinking through something, but the interaction is so lively, and some things that are said by the real character I don't think (in this case) Plum actually knows on her own, that I get lost. I know she is reading Leeta's diary so that must be the source of new info, but it's still jarring.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

It's turned into an excuse for a bunch of self-righteous hatred.   Women hating all men and black people hating all whites, without anyone taking a split second to get to know the individuals or even to admit that they might not all be the same.  Plus the assumption that people who are historically oppressed can do no wrong themselves -- they are all perfect, I guess.

In that way, you're right - it is a reflection of our society. No context, little thought ... just reaction based on inarguable positions.

[Iguessnot]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Maybe it's just because I know the actress from all her other work, but that's just a big fail to me.  I remember they made a big deal about her taking off her make up, but I don't see how she could pass for white.

 

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Is it possible that has been what the show intended? I just assumed it was a failure of intel by Jennifer. Or some kind of aside that was meant to show Jennifer doesn't do enough due diligence to really have a clear view. Because at no point in this show have I ever thought Julia was white, and I don't know who would.

 

That was the problem. Even if someone never saw the actress Tunie before, they wouldn't mistake her for a white woman. Knowing now that the showrunners thought that was an assumption the audience would make, makes it clear why the whole show is a mess. Whomever is in charge, is in their own bubble.

[atlantaloves]

I tell you, when the after show is 100 times better than the actual show you have a problem. I'll stick it out for the last episode, but this program reeks, and I seriously loved it when it started out. It's just horrible. Bad writing. Anyway, the after show was wonderful last night.  Great guests. 

[mjc570]

Yeah, I'll stick it out, but this show has become a major disappointment, which is a shame, because most of the acting is so good.  I think it would have worked a million times better if there had been fewer episodes, maybe 6 at the most.  It's just getting ridiculous and boring and senseless, now.  I liked Plum int he beginning, because I thought a lot of her reactions and feelings were so realistic, but now she's just all over the place. That scene where she was supposed to kill the "rapist" was just embarrassing - who possibly thought that after 1 lesson, she could shot someone?  And then run away without being caught?  Such an obvious set-up.    And Detroit makes no sense whatsoever, 

I'd totally watch the Stanley/Kitty show, along with the cafe guys.  They all seem like they're having fun.  And Tamara Tunie, because I've  liked her so much. for so long.  Her SL is terrible, though.

I totally don't get the Dominic thing - why did his wife leave?  Who cares?  I assume this is so he and Plum can get together, which would be a huge step backwards for her, I think.  Also, I never thought he was all that good -looking.   

[BooBear]

15 minutes ago, mjc570 said:

I totally don't get the Dominic thing - why did his wife leave?  Who cares?  I assume this is so he and Plum can get together, which would be a huge step backwards for her, I think.  Also, I never thought he was all that good -looking.   

I know Dominic is a new character for the series but I think it is shaping up to be horribly insulting. The message I get is that Plum can only hope to get *maybe* a washed up loser who is with her only because the A team options are out.  Is that all Plum can hope for? I doubt it. But if it is... isn't the message that Plum should just learn to accept being single until someone who is a good catch comes along, which is maybe never. Real self acceptance is Plum realizing that Dominic isn't good enough for her in an organic and genuine way. 

41 minutes ago, mjc570 said:

That scene where she was supposed to kill the "rapist" was just embarrassing - who possibly thought that after 1 lesson, she could shot someone?  And then run away without being caught?  Such an obvious set-up.

Ok again I thought I missed something. I trained on firearms last year. I took a two hour class and fired at the range for an hour. I hardly came close to center mass - I could not shoot anyone at that distance. Did anyone else think it was weird that the guy didn't seem to notice Plum standing across the street with a gun? I mean did Plum have an invisible shield on? Was Plum ok with committing murder in broad daylight? 

Shall we even comment on what is going on with the real Leena and Julia? I don't think I really care but what would cause her to be mulling to herself in a stupor? 

[tennisgurl]

You know, I think this show would have been better if it had just focused on one idea, instead of doing about a billion ideas. Do a dark comedy/satire with Jennifer and be a revenge fantasy against rapists and abusers where the story actually has something to say about revenge, resistance, or gender issues, in a more over the top way (kind of like how Mad Max Fury Road was a deconstruction of objectification and toxic masculinity inside of an over the top action movie), or do a more down to Earth story of Plum and her self esteem issues, with the backdrop of gender issues in the modern era. I think that would make the weird mood whiplash and the confusing morals make more sense, or at least be more consistence. 

So, is Julia really supposed to be passing as white? When she took off her wig a few weeks ago, were we supposed to really think "oh my god, a black woman?!?!" and gasp in shock? That cant be for real, can it? Because, even if I hadn't seen the actress before, I would never think she was white if I met her in real life. I mean, I dont mean to say that all races look exactly the same, but come on! And, from a story perspective, whats the point? 

Plum at least is making a bit more sense (or as much sense as someone joining a terrorist cell can be) and is acting more like an actual person, and not just a plot device. I still hate that they had her be raped just to get to this point. Its rape as plot device, and I always find that to be very uncomfortable to watch at best, and is disgusting and tasteless at worst. And from a show that seems to be trying to make some kind of statement about feminism! Also, to be a member of Jennifer, you have to be condescending as hell, and have a love of black beanies and puffy black coats. Is that the dress code of female Detroit terrorists? 

The issue with having such an unclear tone, is that its hard to tell what is intentionally over the top to make a broader point, and what is the show actually trying to make a real statement. Is the show really saying that all white guys are totally evil and pervy (except for Dominick I guess, who is still an apparent loser who strung poor Plum along) and that skinny women are asking to be raped, and porn stars deserve to die for having sex on camera, or is this just part of the over the top satire, or Plums point of view based on her own issues? Or is Plum being unable to find any man ever who would like her, besides a perverted rapist who just is turned on by her fat, supposed to be saying "all fat women can hope for is to be raped by a guy with a fat fetish", or is it saying that this all all just a part of Plums story, and not any kind of greater point on the lives of fat women? Or is the show saying nothing, and is just doing stuff? 

It has a rather late 90s/early 00s take on feminism, or at least the way I have seen it in retrospect. Feminine things are bad (hence the dismissive Princess stuff), sex is evil, all men are rapists, etc. Or, maybe its satire. I DONT KNOW!

Edited July 25, 2018 by tennisgurl

[SunnyBeBe]

To me, Plum's reaction to the incident in the guy's apartment was ODD.  She was upset when on the phone with her mom, but, later she says she was raped, sort of.  So, what does that mean?

  At least she was accurate in that she didn't even think the guy knew he did anything wrong. He thought she was into it.  And, she's still a virgin?  I guess we have to use our imagination, but, whatever happened, didn't seem to impact her for too long.

She jumped at the chance to join a terrorist organization. I wonder if she realizes that even if she doesn't actually kill someone, conspiring and aiding those who do, can get you the same sentence.  How would she do in prison for the rest of her life?   I don't think she even considered it.  She and all the women that I have seen at Jennifer seem to be very immature and not very bright.  How does this advance the idea of female equality?

[Accidental Martyr]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 

It makes sense that this book is from the early 00s, because it has a rather late 90s/early 00s take on feminism, or at least the way I have seen it in retrospect. Feminine things are bad (hence the dismissive Princess stuff), sex is evil, all men are rapists, etc. Or, maybe its satire. I DONT KNOW!

The book was published in 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietland

[tennisgurl]

Wow, I swear I heard someone say it was written awhile ago. Interesting. 

[BooBear]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Wow, I swear I heard someone say it was written awhile ago. Interesting. 

That was probably me sorry, I had thought that.  I had heard that this was inspired by Fight Club which came out in 1999 so perhaps it was published well after written.  It just seems so old fashioned. 

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wonder if she realizes that even if she doesn't actually kill someone, conspiring and aiding those who do, can get you the same sentence. 

Does not seem she has.  She really could have been the hero and improved her life by going to the authorities once she found Jennifer. But noooo...  I hope next week she doesn't get out of this unscathed. 

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The issue with having such an unclear tone, is that its hard to tell what is intentionally over the top to make a broader point, and what is the show actually trying to make a real statement. Is the show really saying that all white guys are totally evil and pervy (except for Dominick I guess, who is still an apparent loser who strung poor Plum along) and that skinny women are asking to be raped, and porn stars deserve to die for having sex on camera, or is this just part of the over the top satire, or Plums point of view based on her own issues? Or is Plum being unable to find any man ever who would like her, besides a perverted rapist who just is turned on by her fat, supposed to be saying "all fat women can hope for is to be raped by a guy with a fat fetish", or is it saying that this all all just a part of Plums story, and not any kind of greater point on the lives of fat women? Or is the show saying nothing, and is just doing stuff? 

The thing is... where are we getting that this is satire? I am not getting that. I am getting that the show is taking itself pretty seriously and it actually does think all of the above. That is profoundly depressing because it says even when someone is trying to write an empowering story for a large woman their prejudices and societal influence keep them from doing so.  Ultimately if they wanted to say these things and explore them I might have been up for that... I would have liked to hear Plum's inner sarcastic monologue about fat fetish guy...  or Dominic stringing her along.... and it could have been satisfying but it is mostly lazy.  Where is the fight club for women? Cause this isn't it. 

[nikita]

On 7/23/2018 at 10:43 PM, Ottis said:

And she is still a virgin? So... did the guy have his pants down or not? It’s still an assault, and yet to Plum’s point, it wouldn’t be viewed the same. 

Some people who are virgins before a sexual assault are still considered/still consider themselves virgins after. Because it was rape, not sex. This thought crossed my mind when Plum said that, but I think if the show meant that, it would have been elaborated on in at least an additional sentence.

 

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

That was probably me sorry, I had thought that.  I had heard that this was inspired by Fight Club which came out in 1999 so perhaps it was published well after written.  It just seems so old fashioned. 

It's Second Wave feminist movement rather than the Third Wave that is popular now (sex-positive, pro-sex worker rights, etc.), but there are still a lot of Second Wavers active. However, they seem to be very hated.

[SunnyBeBe]

Instead of rooting for Plum, I found myself hoping that she gets caught. If she's hell bent on killing people, because someone with Jennifer told her that they were bad people, I hope she is stopped.  I don't know how she would handle that.  Lots of free time to write in prison.  Of course, perhaps Dominic can get her out of trouble again. 

[nikita]

37 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

A couple of links.

 

https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/dietland/

https://tvseriesfinale.com/tv-show/dietland-season-one-ratings/

Ratings continue to sink.

I think I have finally turned on Plum.  I had sympathy for her up to a point, but once she turned on Steven that was it.

Steven had shown concern for Plum's health, that was all.  He didn't beat Plum over the head stating that she had to lose weight.  He just mentioned his concern about her weight once.  He was concerned, because she was breathing heavy when entering his restaurant.  And for that, in this episode, she has basically written him off? 

Friends aren't supposed to stand by and watch their friends destroy themselves.

I never noticed Plum wheezing during the numerous scenes she entered the cafe. In any case, in the world of fat politics, it is considered bigoted to bring up a person's health. Most fat acceptance advocates believe that a person's health is her own business. Not to mention that health is the cudgel by which fat people are beaten. No one wants to be seen as shallow in just disliking the look of fat people, but they feel entitled to and morally superior in commenting on fat people's health. I 100 percent get why Plum is upset with Steven.

Would Steven tell a promiscuous friend s/he is playing a dangerous game with his/her sexual and emotional health? Would he tell a boozy friend s/he drinks too much? I doubt it. But friends and strangers feel free to comment on fat people's health. To a "rad fattie" doing that is a politically charged act.

And that doesn't even get into the evidence that fat isn't in itself unhealthy, something I imagine Plum learned at Calliope. Basically, this show could actually be much more radical LOL

[msrachelj]

On 7/24/2018 at 12:23 AM, voiceover said:

I saw that next week's ep is referred to as "Season", as opposed to "Series", finale.  Does this mean, they're hoping for Season 2?  I guess the book fans would know better than I, how much story is left to tell after next Monday.

i hope this crap is cancelled so i'm not tempted to watch another season .

[msrachelj]

On 7/24/2018 at 7:49 AM, icemiser69 said:

During their first meeting, didn't Plum call that guy who raped her a four?    Do the writers even know what they wrote in previous episodes?  My memory has always been horrible, absolutely horrible, and even I can remember the first meeting between Plum and rapey dude didn't end well.

I have no idea what happened during that assault, but if he penetrated her at all, it could have been anal sex.  In that case, she would consider herself a virgin.

We're nine episodes in and Plum is still a rudderless ship.  She keeps looking for others to give her life meaning/direction, and in the process constantly allowing herself to be manipulated.

She (Princess) is afraid Steven will judge her?  Guess what "Princess", I hate to break it to you.  You have been judging everyone else just as much as they have been judging you.  The difference "Princess" is that when people judge you, you act like a professional victim.  I feel bad that people treat you badly "Princess", but as soon as you start dishing it out as much as you have been taking it, I start viewing you as a hypocrite.

Plum's mother isn't as skinny as I thought she was.

Kitty is just as big of a dirt bag as everyone else.

At the beginning of the episode when Plum was talking about flailing, all I could think of was that she was in a sink hole of despair, depression.  As I said in the last episode thread,  I think she is emotionally constipated.  She can't move on, because she just holds on to her emotional shit. 

Now, I am beginning to wonder if she gets something out of being that way.  Some sort of satisfaction.  She has to be emotionally exhausting to be around, because she appears to be nothing but constant "drama", making everything about her.

this show stinks. i'm bored by it. i have come to dislike plum and that was not the case in the beginning of the series.  what did  happen to plum? i sincerely doubt it was anal sex, i think she would have screamed in pain. . unless she is an anal aficionado and calls herself a virgin because she still has a hymen and so technically, a virgin? 

[SunnyBeBe]

13 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

this show stinks. i'm bored by it. i have come to dislike plum and that was not the case in the beginning of the series.  what did  happen to plum? i sincerely doubt it was anal sex, i think she would have screamed in pain. . unless she is an anal aficionado and calls herself a virgin because she still has a hymen and so technically, a virgin? 

I'll have to watch her description of what happened again.  She did say that creepy guy was into playing with her back or something like that.  Like in....backside, meaning butt?  IDK.  Maybe, the guy thought that he was doing something, but, he was not in the right position and just lost it......IDK.  It's difficult to say, but, I agree about the anal thing.  I'm not sure why she didn't seem to be in more pain, regardless of the area, if she was a virgin, but, it didn't appear that her tights were down and when you tell someone that you were raped, why say sort of?  I don't get that.  I suppose the guy could have been so very small in penis size that it didn't hurt much.......we may never get a real answer on that.  I'll have to check the interviews, but, honestly, the actors may not know what the hell is going on either. 

[Ottis]

3 hours ago, nikita said:

Would Steven tell a promiscuous friend s/he is playing a dangerous game with his/her sexual and emotional health? Would he tell a boozy friend s/he drinks too much? I doubt it. But friends and strangers feel free to comment on fat people's health. To a "rad fattie" doing that is a politically charged act.

Obviously within the context of the show, we don't know what Stephen would do but - IRL, I think most people would comment on your two examples long before they would ever mention weight.  Cautioning a friend who drinks a lot is pretty common, IMO. Sexual behavior is less so, but that's largely because it isn't as visible. I'd also add smoking and health as something a friend commonly makes a comment about. I actually think most people don't comment about weight. Maybe the fashionistas and "skinny bitches" do. I don't know any of them. Now, many people *react* in a variety of ways to those who are seen as very overweight. But that's a different thing. And i wish that is the line this show stuck with and focused on.

[izabella]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'll have to watch her description of what happened again.  She did say that creepy guy was into playing with her back or something like that.  Like in....backside, meaning butt?  IDK.  Maybe, the guy thought that he was doing something, but, he was not in the right position and just lost it......IDK.  It's difficult to say, but, I agree about the anal thing.  I'm not sure why she didn't seem to be in more pain, regardless of the area, if she was a virgin, but, it didn't appear that her tights were down and when you tell someone that you were raped, why say sort of?  I don't get that.  I suppose the guy could have been so very small in penis size that it didn't hurt much.......we may never get a real answer on that.  I'll have to check the interviews, but, honestly, the actors may not know what the hell is going on either. 

Because it was date rape, and a lot of women who are victims of date rape suffer from the blurred lines that go along with it.  Women are taught to fear stranger danger rape.  But few are taught to recognize date rape and call it out for what it is, nor how to react to it.  "Oh, maybe he thought he was being kinky and didn't mean to rape me even though he did."  "Oh, maybe I should have fought harder and he didn't realize I didn't want to be raped."  "Oh, what if he didn't intend to rape me even though he did, what if I'm wrong about his obviously rapist act, and he's just confused and inexperienced, I don't want to make a scene."   Women internalize all the excuses men give for date rape and it makes them wonder if it was rape even though they sure as shit know it was.  Women also internalize "be nice, be polite, don't hurt people's feelings, don't make a scene."  That's also the reason women don't immediately run screaming from a scary guy on the street - maybe he really doesn't intend me harm  and I'm just being a silly, paranoid woman! - and end up as victims of crimes.

Edited July 25, 2018 by izabella

[DiabLOL]

OK because I have tons of real life crap I want to avoid doing, here's what I think.

I was disgusted that Steven thought he had any right to talk to her about her "wheezing" and his "concern". Yes, she did kind of make him feel welcome to do so by even letting him know how she felt about her weight, wanting surgery, being a virgin. Oh and yes he was also entitled to tell Dominick she was a virgin. I'm totally on board with dumping someone like that. Anyone been lectured by an overweight doctor about one's weight? I have been on at least two occasions by two different obese doctors. Being lectured by people about one's smoking or drinking isn't the same. It just doesn't have the same mainstream attractiveness shame stigma attached to it no matter how irritating it may be to the smoker or drinker. You can still somehow pass as dangerously, recklessly sexy, yet fat people wear the byproduct of their "problem behavior" on their bodies. I don't recall Plum asking Steven if he'd noticed anything concerning about her health due to her size. I'm just not ok with this at all.
 

*WARNING: graphic rape talk to follow*

I find it kind of irresponsible for the show to not let us know by now just exactly what creep date guy did back there. I was pretty sure that Plum was wearing not one but two pairs of tights, the opaque colored pair and then large fishnet over them? Also I'll assume underwear just because. Especially due to her size I'd say it would have been really difficult for him to just pull them all down. If he was really intent on penetrating her he'd have torn them open. I also don't believe he penetrated her at all let alone anally. She'd probably end up in the hospital if he had done that with her standing, nonlubricated and by force. So I have to assume that she was violently assaulted.

I think she didn't fight back because it was all too shocking. A lot of crime victims freeze, we all know that by now. I don't blame her for being assaulted but I'm not surprised she was. I want to say she didn't know him well enough to go to his apartment but actually she knew all she needed to know: he showed her on several occasions that he wasn't taking no for an answer. I think it does women a huge disservice to just land on you should be safe in any situation with anyone because while you of course should be, you're actually not. She's not a teen. She was old and wise enough to give teens all sorts of tough advice. Obviously she gave him another chance out of a complicated moment of feeling impulsive and wanting to be with someone and he wouldn't stop video calling. Who is Plum? I have no idea anymore. 

I found it not only deeply disappointing that Plum didn't want to press charges when she was so brutally degraded and assaulted,  it was really inconsistent to then have her join a terrorist organization and pretty much fast track herself to a willing murderer. 

[izabella]

46 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

found it not only deeply disappointing that Plum didn't want to press charges when she was so brutally degraded and assaulted,  it was really inconsistent to then have her join a terrorist organization and pretty much fast track herself to a willing murderer. 

I can kinda understand this.  Not the willing murderer part, but as a manifestation of how angry and helpless Plum is feeling.

Trying to press charges, for her, was an unwinnable battle.  He said, she said.  Did he get her tights down all the way or just partway, and is it rape if he only gets partway into her vagina and comes or does he have to pump a few times?  She doesn't want a whole bunch of cops parsing her anatomy and his dick's whereabouts.  She doesn't want those same cops and lawyers questioning whether she fought hard enough or whether it was just kinky sex.  All the stuff she listed as to why she didn't want to press charges make perfect sense.  He said, she said, and many are not inclined to believe a woman who goes to a man's apartment and flirts and drinks with him wasn't "asking for it."

But Jennifer offers instant revenge, if not on him directly, then on some other guy who had raped someone else and was walking around free to rape more.  I don't agree with it, but she's not exactly in her right mind now.  She should have let her mom come over as she wanted to do.  But she was angry and felt helpless to do anything about her rapist, so she turned to Jennifer who offere instant action, too.

I have not been enjoying this show.  I'm squinting really hard to see the meaning, even though it's drawn in exagsgerations. 

Edited July 25, 2018 by izabella

[BooBear]

57 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

OK because I have tons of real life crap I want to avoid doing, here's what I think.

 It just doesn't have the same mainstream attractiveness shame stigma attached to it no matter how irritating it may be to the smoker or drinker. You can still somehow pass as dangerously, recklessly sexy, yet fat people wear the byproduct of their "problem behavior" on their bodies. I don't recall Plum asking Steven if he'd noticed anything concerning about her health due to her size. I'm just not ok with this at all.

I find it kind of irresponsible for the show to not let us know by now just exactly what creep date guy did back there. I was pretty sure that Plum was wearing not one but two pairs of tights, the opaque colored pair and then large fishnet over them? Also I'll assume underwear just because. Especially due to her size I'd say it would have been really difficult for him to just pull them all down. If he was really intent on penetrating her he'd have torn them open. I also don't believe he penetrated her at all let alone anally. She'd probably end up in the hospital if he had done that with her standing, nonlubricated and by force. So I have to assume that she was violently assaulted.

I loved your post. But disagree with it in two respects. First... while i know what you are saying with regard to the faux "health concern" and I am 99% certain that was the card that Steven was playing I think health is a concern for large women and it is kind of the reason I continue to diet while knowing it is probably pointless. I have too many large friends who are no longer with us due to uterine cancer which is overwhelmingly related to being overweight and both were... for years.  So there are health concerns even if you aren't sick now. Both friends were fat acceptance people. Steven was a horrible friend you do NOT ever tell a potential suitor that a friend is a virgin. EVER.  To me Steven used Plum. As long as she came and sat in his store for him to talk with she was ok... but he always barked at the young guy who was trying to make friends with Plum and telling Dominic she was a virgin was likely to send him running.  Steven was happy with his little friend who just went to his shop and then home. 

How can we conclude she was violently assaulted? I just can't see it. I think the scene was irresponsible by being so vague and also non violent. At best it can be considered awkward. But if that is a violent assault I probably get worse than that on the subway daily.  I think it does a disservice to violent assault. 

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Instead of rooting for Plum, I found myself hoping that she gets caught. If she's hell bent on killing people, because someone with Jennifer told her that they were bad people, I hope she is stopped.  I don't know how she would handle that.  Lots of free time to write in prison.  Of course, perhaps Dominic can get her out of trouble again. 

I find it ironic also that at the start Plum's biggest concern was impending surgery. And now she literally could spend the rest of her life in prison. I am no longer rooting for her.  Not immediately reporting Jennifer was foolish and immoral. In fight club the narrator actually did go to police when he found out what Tyler Durden was up to and that wasn't murder. 

[Zanne]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'll have to watch her description of what happened again.  She did say that creepy guy was into playing with her back or something like that.  Like in....backside, meaning butt?  IDK.  Maybe, the guy thought that he was doing something, but, he was not in the right position and just lost it......IDK.  It's difficult to say, but, I agree about the anal thing.  I'm not sure why she didn't seem to be in more pain, regardless of the area, if she was a virgin, but, it didn't appear that her tights were down and when you tell someone that you were raped, why say sort of?  I don't get that.  I suppose the guy could have been so very small in penis size that it didn't hurt much.......we may never get a real answer on that.  I'll have to check the interviews, but, honestly, the actors may not know what the hell is going on either. 

I thought there was no penetration, except for his fingers in her mouth. I saw it as aggressive frottage, with both remaining fully clothed. In other words, he was dry humping her butt. It was undoubtedly assault since she didn't want it, but there was no penile penetration of any orifices.

[SunnyBeBe]

11 hours ago, 17wheatthins said:

I watch with closed captioning. Plum said he liked playing with her fat, which really sounds unsavory.  

Yes, I watched that scene again and she does say fat, not back, and it's also clearer to me what they were talking about.  The girl listening after hearing Plum's account calls it assault, not rape.  So, Zanne is right above in her interpretation that there was no penetration, except for the finger in mouth. It makes more sense now.  

I also found in that scene it ironic that Plum is dissing on the Calliopse House saying that's like a cult, people living under Verena rule, in a basement and how she wants her life back, THEN, she turns around and hooks up with Jennifer where she's living under their rule, living in a deserted underground shelter, being ordered to murder.  I mean, she's going from bad to worse.  I suppose that she could say that she was abducted, held against her will and forced to commit crimes.   It didn't work for Patty Hearst, but, she was eventually pardoned.  (And, Hearst WAS actually kidnapped and held against her will.  Not like Plum, who WANTED to go.)

Edited July 26, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[SunnyBeBe]

Another thing that I found rather odd and funny was how Julia and her ladies discuss their involvement in high profile MURDERS in a public place and near others, as if their lives are not at stake.  Granted, they change the subject when the server approaches, but, there are ways to overhear someone at the next table.  There are even devices designed to catch these conversations.  It strikes me as incredibly dumb and naive.  

And when Plum was on the sidewalk with the Jennifer woman handling that firearm.....don't they realize that a lot of houses have security cameras and they could have been easily captured on video?  So, bizarre to me.  Wouldn't Plum, who is so knowledgeable, realize that this group of women are not smart enough to continue on their crime spree and that she's going to likely get caught and imprisoned? It's just so hard for me to buy into this. 

[Ottis]

18 hours ago, izabella said:

She doesn't want a whole bunch of cops parsing her anatomy and his dick's whereabouts.  She doesn't want those same cops and lawyers questioning whether she fought hard enough or whether it was just kinky sex.  All the stuff she listed as to why she didn't want to press charges make perfect sense.

For these very reasons, I wish she *had* tried to press charges and then ran into some of this. Maybe it would have been redundant for some, but it would have served as more reason she sought out Jennifer.

15 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Wouldn't Plum, who is so knowledgeable, realize that this group of women are not smart enough to continue on their crime spree and that she's going to likely get caught and imprisoned? It's just so hard for me to buy into this. 

ITA. I wonder sometimes if the show intends to set up Plum as "the smart one" who corrects all these oversights and becomes Jennifer's leader. Then the one-time, skinny bitch wanna be will turn out to be the leader of a much more effective group of women (people?)  who crush all who try to body image shame/assault/etc. women.

[Iguessnot]

On 7/25/2018 at 7:13 PM, BooBear said:

I loved your post. But disagree with it in two respects. First... while i know what you are saying with regard to the faux "health concern" and I am 99% certain that was the card that Steven was playing I think health is a concern for large women and it is kind of the reason I continue to diet while knowing it is probably pointless. I have too many large friends who are no longer with us due to uterine cancer which is overwhelmingly related to being overweight and both were... for years.  So there are health concerns even if you aren't sick now. Both friends were fat acceptance people. Steven was a horrible friend you do NOT ever tell a potential suitor that a friend is a virgin. EVER.  To me Steven used Plum. As long as she came and sat in his store for him to talk with she was ok... but he always barked at the young guy who was trying to make friends with Plum and telling Dominic she was a virgin was likely to send him running.  Steven was happy with his little friend who just went to his shop and then home. 

How can we conclude she was violently assaulted? I just can't see it. I think the scene was irresponsible by being so vague and also non violent. At best it can be considered awkward. But if that is a violent assault I probably get worse than that on the subway daily.  I think it does a disservice to violent assault. 

I find it ironic also that at the start Plum's biggest concern was impending surgery. And now she literally could spend the rest of her life in prison. I am no longer rooting for her.  Not immediately reporting Jennifer was foolish and immoral. In fight club the narrator actually did go to police when he found out what Tyler Durden was up to and that wasn't murder. 

Yeah, if your friends and family can't tell you that you're too damn big, you have a problem. I've had a couple of caring friends tell me so. I haven't lost the weight yet because I'm not trying hard, but my world and self esteem haven't crashed. Simple acknowledgement of an issue is not abuse or discrimination. Plum acts like it is because she's not dealing with some underlying problems.

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Another thing that I found rather odd and funny was how Julia and her ladies discuss their involvement in high profile MURDERS in a public place and near others, as if their lives are not at stake.  Granted, they change the subject when the server approaches, but, there are ways to overhear someone at the next table.  There are even devices designed to catch these conversations.  It strikes me as incredibly dumb and naive.  

And when Plum was on the sidewalk with the Jennifer woman handling that firearm.....don't they realize that a lot of houses have security cameras and they could have been easily captured on video?  So, bizarre to me.  Wouldn't Plum, who is so knowledgeable, realize that this group of women are not smart enough to continue on their crime spree and that she's going to likely get caught and imprisoned? It's just so hard for me to buy into this. 

It's weird to compare it to the scene with Plum at a table with a man, thereby causing the whole restaurant to watch her every movement and speculate.

[Iguessnot]

Did he indicate during his phone call his marriage was over? I wasn't paying attention so I missed that and I've only heard of it on this board. If so, this show makes up everything as it goes along. 

[ichbin]

On 7/24/2018 at 12:16 PM, Iguessnot said:

Yep, Julia was supposed to be passing as white. Only way that stupid scene made sense.

Now that scene a few episodes makes sense...the one when Julia was at Calliope with Plum and took off her make-up and wig.  Julia prefaced that with some statement making it seem like what she was about to do was a big deal and some kind of reveal.  I remember thinking what was that all about?  

[BooBear]

6 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Another thing that I found rather odd and funny was how Julia and her ladies discuss their involvement in high profile MURDERS in a public place and near others, as if their lives are not at stake.  Granted, they change the subject when the server approaches, but, there are ways to overhear someone at the next table.  There are even devices designed to catch these conversations.  It strikes me as incredibly dumb and naive.  

And when Plum was on the sidewalk with the Jennifer woman handling that firearm.....don't they realize that a lot of houses have security cameras and they could have been easily captured on video?  So, bizarre to me.  Wouldn't Plum, who is so knowledgeable, realize that this group of women are not smart enough to continue on their crime spree and that she's going to likely get caught and imprisoned? It's just so hard for me to buy into this. 

I have always assumed that talk about the crime in a restaurant is some sort of movie / tv convention as it would seem uninteresting to talk about it in your home or something. Because they do it a lot and it seems insane.  But yes, that was stupid when Jennifer is public enemy number one.

 I thought it more bizarre that Plum was aiming a gun at a man who could see her. What if he pulled out his gun? I was also laughable that he didn't notice them. 

The entire idea that they wouldn't have caught Jennifer by now is laughable. I only hope no women watching think that is reality. Law enforcement has seriously sneaky tools.  Plum is truly an idiot if she doesn't see that they are not only going to get caught... law enforcement probably won't let them live. 

I think Plum couldn't say she was abducted because she contacted Jennifer via computer. Every keystroke leaves a record and that would be the smoking gun. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Now that scene a few episodes makes sense...the one when Julia was at Calliope with Plum and took off her make-up and wig.  Julia prefaced that with some statement making it seem like what she was about to do was a big deal and some kind of reveal.  I remember thinking what was that all about?  

I thought the "big reveal" was to show everything Julia had to do to make herself look presentable to the world.  It was more a statement about how it is to be a woman of a certain age.  I mean, I never had the impression we were supposed to think Julia was passing as white.  

I'll admit I do kind of like Kitty's b-story about finally taking over the company.  Though are they doing something to make it seem like Julianna Marguilies has really big boobs?  When she was wearing that outfit in the boardroom with the choker necklace and very low cut jacket that showed off her breasts, they looked huge.   

[juliet73]

This series really turned into a dumpster fire!  This week's episode was just awful! I'm sure next week will be even worse.

I'm confused about Dominic's wife and kids leaving.  The only scene they had together was back in ep 2(?) and it seemed like she was a supporting wife, etc and there were no issues in the marriage.  Now out of nowhere, Dominic is a complete loser and scumbag? 

Why is Kitty still a part of this show?  How does her becoming CEO affect Plum and/or Jennifer.  Her character should have been written out at least 2 eps ago.  

The Jennifer kidnappers put drops in Plum's eyes so she can't see where they are going?  Obviously, once Plum gets to the "secret" destination, she knows she's in Detroit so that made no sense.  

I was confused by the rape scene as well.  I agree that it looked more like a dry hump assault (for lack of a better phrase).  If she was indeed raped/penetrated - vaginally or anally - I would think he would have had a lot of difficulty entering her and she would have been screaming in pain.  Also, it was odd that she mentioned that she knew he was a total creep, etc but then a few sentences later says something like he was a nice guy??  Talk about inconsistent writing!

I'm sorry I wasted 10+ hours of my life on this garbage! 

[txhorns79]

Quote

I'm confused about Dominic's wife and kids leaving.  The only scene they had together was back in ep 2(?) and it seemed like she was a supporting wife, etc and there were no issues in the marriage.  Now out of nowhere, Dominic is a complete loser and scumbag?

You aren't the only one who was confused about that.  There was no suggestion of those issues prior to this episode.  I wondered if this was being done to make Dominic a plausible romantic partner for Plum. 

I've ended up being very disappointed in this show.   

[nikita]

19 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Steven is the one that was talking about her breathing heavy.

My point was that we were shown Plum entering his cafe several times, and never once did she wheeze. So that makes me wonder is Steven so prejudiced against fat people that he's seeing things that aren't there? Because we certainly were never shown Plum out of breath.

19 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

In the real world, people get confronted about all sorts of possibly health issues.  Booze, drugs, cigarettes, sex addiction, and yes, weight.

Fat acceptance advocates, though, don't believe weight is a health issue. And that belief is based on evidence, not fantasy. So maybe that's why Plum took umbrage with Steven? His statements felt like a huge betrayal to me, particularly at the exact moment when Plum felt very confident in her own body.

17 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Yeah, if your friends and family can't tell you that you're too damn big, you have a problem. I've had a couple of caring friends tell me so.

Did they tell you that diets don't work for ~95 percent of those who do them? And that for most people, post-dieting, they gain back what they lost *plus* more. If Plum learned this at Calliope, I see why she felt stabbed in the back by Steven's "concern."

[SunnyBeBe]

46 minutes ago, nikita said:

My point was that we were shown Plum entering his cafe several times, and never once did she wheeze. So that makes me wonder is Steven so prejudiced against fat people that he's seeing things that aren't there? Because we certainly were never shown Plum out of breath.

Fat acceptance advocates, though, don't believe weight is a health issue. And that belief is based on evidence, not fantasy. So maybe that's why Plum took umbrage with Steven? His statements felt like a huge betrayal to me, particularly at the exact moment when Plum felt very confident in her own body.

Did they tell you that diets don't work for ~95 percent of those who do them? And that for most people, post-dieting, they gain back what they lost *plus* more. If Plum learned this at Calliope, I see why she felt stabbed in the back by Steven's "concern."

Ref. boldface above are you talking about those at the Calliope house? 

[nikita]

17 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. boldface above are you talking about those at the Calliope house? 

No, real world people. It's unclear from the show what specifically the Calliope people believe about fat acceptance. Although being aware/involved myself for around 11 years, I see some indicators of what they probably believe.

[Iguessnot]

3 hours ago, nikita said:

My point was that we were shown Plum entering his cafe several times, and never once did she wheeze. So that makes me wonder is Steven so prejudiced against fat people that he's seeing things that aren't there? Because we certainly were never shown Plum out of breath.

Fat acceptance advocates, though, don't believe weight is a health issue. And that belief is based on evidence, not fantasy. So maybe that's why Plum took umbrage with Steven? His statements felt like a huge betrayal to me, particularly at the exact moment when Plum felt very confident in her own body.

Did they tell you that diets don't work for ~95 percent of those who do them? And that for most people, post-dieting, they gain back what they lost *plus* more. If Plum learned this at Calliope, I see why she felt stabbed in the back by Steven's "concern."

I can accept I'm fat, but I also accept that I can't exert myself worth diddly squat. I know I'm sedentary and eat too much. 

One of the friends who told me, adjusted her food intake and food quality, increased her exercise and within a year she lost the extra weight. She has kept it off for many years. Anyway, I'm not demanding they spoon feed me a diet plan. I have to figure out what works for me.

[nikita]

3 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

I can accept I'm fat, but I also accept that I can't exert myself worth diddly squat. I know I'm sedentary and eat too much. 

One of the friends who told me, adjusted her food intake and food quality, increased her exercise and within a year she lost the extra weight. She has kept it off for many years. Anyway, I'm not demanding they spoon feed me a diet plan. I have to figure out what works for me.

One of the best takeaways for me personally from body acceptance was the concept of Health At Every Size (HAES). I'm surprised the show hasn't covered it. One who is fat can still improve her fitness and condition herself even if it doesn't result in weight loss. This was so freeing for me. As was the encouragement to focus on recreational exercise (for example, the fun of recess as a kid versus the "torture" of gym class) and eating what my body craves (because that's what it needs). Allowing myself to eat whatever I want took away the deprivation feeling of calorie-counting and also made previously forbidden foods less enticing because I could have them whenever I wanted.

On topic: despite its flaws, I'm so happy to see this show in the mainsteam, and I love Joy Nash.

[Iguessnot]

54 minutes ago, nikita said:

One of the best takeaways for me personally from body acceptance was the concept of Health At Every Size (HAES). I'm surprised the show hasn't covered it. One who is fat can still improve her fitness and condition herself even if it doesn't result in weight loss. This was so freeing for me. As was the encouragement to focus on recreational exercise (for example, the fun of recess as a kid versus the "torture" of gym class) and eating what my body craves (because that's what it needs). Allowing myself to eat whatever I want took away the deprivation feeling of calorie-counting and also made previously forbidden foods less enticing because I could have them whenever I wanted.

On topic: despite its flaws, I'm so happy to see this show in the mainsteam, and I love Joy Nash.

I'll have to look into that, but I know there are things I have to force myself to do. First, I'm forcing myself to drink water. My body needs it but I don't crave it. However a pitcher of grape kool aid is manna from heaven. It is scary how fast I can down a glass of koolaid whereas I struggle with water.

A well prepared basmati rice pilau slides down my throat without me registering fullness.

Nacho cheese Doritos. OHHHHHHH.

These are the things I crave at ungodly levels, so I will always have to watch the amounts. 

I've never seen Joy Nash, but I really like her. However Plum has gotten on my last nerve.

[formerlyfreedom]

Posts have been removed. The site rule is 'be civil' - insulting fellow posters and demanding 'proof' for their posts is not civil, and continuing to do it will result in warnings.

[Token]

My body craves cake and pizza.  It doesn't need cake and pizza.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I really felt for Plum when she started listing all the reasons why she thought it was her fault that the jerk assaulted her. I know too many women who have done the same thing after being assaulted or raped. As upset as they were about what happened, they couldn't help blaming themselves and thinking about every possible reason that it could have been their fault.