S04.E02: Episode 2

[Meredith Quill]

Episode Synopsis:

The Poldarks determine to get their relationship back on track and the Enyses announce they’re with child. Hugh’s worsening health threatens his chance to stand in the election however, and the prospect of him remaining in Cornwall adds pressure to the Poldark’s fragile marriage. At the Sawle Feast, Tom Harry challenges Sam to a wrestling match. Meanwhile, Cornwall's election looms and the Poldarks face difficult decisions, for the outcomes could change not only their lives, but the future of Cornwall itself.

[Zella]

This is awful of me, but when it became clear Hugh was dying, I was relieved that we are, I sincerely hope, going to be spared his shitty poetry from now on. My luck, there will be some tedious flashback in future episodes. 

Ross is still being far too mature for the situation, but I do think the alternative would probably be unwatchable. The brief look of suppressed rage on his face when he realized Demelza was going to sit with Hugh was priceless, though.

Actually some good rage faces throughout the episode. The look on Evil George's face when he realized he had lost the election was also on point. Ditto Ossie's when he found out he got played by the in-law.

That made up for having to see the look on his face when he was licking the hooker's foot like an ice cream cone. . . . 

[GenieinTX]

15 minutes ago, Zella said:

This is awful of me, but when it became clear Hugh was dying, I was relieved that we are, I sincerely hope, going to be spared his shitty poetry from now on. My luck, there will be some tedious flashback in future episodes. 

 

I was totally relieved as well, but because we will be spared the drama of Demelza being tempted to be with Hugh while Ross is in London.    I was not looking forward to that. 

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, GenieinTX said:

I was totally relieved as well, but because we will be spared the drama of Demelza being tempted to be with Hugh while Ross is in London.    I was not looking forward to that. 

I was also not looking forward to it!

I forgot to mention in my previous post that Hugh stayed skeevy until the end, trying to manipulate Demelza into another round of sex on his deathbed. Stay classy, Hugh. 

[TigerLynx]

I actually liked Demelza spending so much time with Hugh, and being so upset about his death.  I laughed though when Ross questioned why Demelza went to Caroline for comfort and to talk, and his whole "Can't you talk to me about it?"  Yeah, Ross that's what every wife wants to do.  Talk to her husband about her lover's death, and the feelings she had for him.

[Magnumfangirl]

2 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

Demelza went to Caroline for comfort and to talk

I wish they had shown us exactly what Demelza told Caroline.  Did she tell her about the romp in the grass with Hugh?  Did she tell her about Ross's sleepover with Elizabeth?  Caroline holds Ross in pretty high regard, if she knew the whole story that would change things between the Enyses and Poldarks because she would definitely tell Dwight.  

[magdalene]

Ross is a lousy husband and he doesn't deserve Demelza's affection and loyality.  I thought it showed Demelza's class and emotional maturity when she spent time with her dying lover and tried to comfort him at the end. The state of medicine was so atrocious back then.  That poor young man being tormented by all those crackpot treatments was hard to watch.

Oh, I like that ruthless girl who is getting the better of the lecherous vicar. It couldn't happen to a nastier man.  

Edited October 8, 2018 by magdalene

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

 Yeah, Ross that's what every wife wants to do.  Talk to her husband about her lover's death, and the feelings she had for him.

Wouldn’t that be EX-lover? Or is Demelza still carrying on the affair?

[nodorothyparker]

Ye gods, Ossie is just the worst at everything.  Worst gossip, worst husband, worst man of the cloth, worst simpering second to George.  Rowella might as well get what she can from him.

Poor boy band member Hugh.  We barely knew you or cared and now you're dead.  Loved his uncle staring down old quack Dr. Choate and his plans to drill into his nephew's skull and rethinking firing Dwight from the case.  Medicine as it was practiced at this time could be pretty barbaric and there was a lot people still didn't know, but even Falmouth could see that maybe boring a hole into a man's head probably wasn't going to help matters any.  And yet as Dwight remarks, this early death only immortalizes him as the most special to ever special flower to be cut down too soon while a mortal man with all his usual foibles and failures might not be able to measure up in comparison.  Ross was being the model of restraint throughout so much of the drawn out deathbed vigil, yet Aidan Turner was doing nice work letting glimpses of the emotions underneath play out on his face.  He so embodies the character that I seldom think of him separately as an actor or about his acting choices, but he deserves credit here for showing full understanding that he had no choice but to play the magnanimous husband who of course didn't mind his wife sitting vigil with the man she'd cheated on him with and saying all the right things while letting us know that he was definitely feeling some things about it nonetheless.

George is just so exhaustingly petty.  He can't even let what should be friendly wager on what would have been a routine sporting event be just that.  No, it has to be round 4,712 of his grudge match with Ross.    The pettiness and resentment cranked up another few notches during and after the MP voting, where he's just so very sure that it's only Ross's name and bloodline that lets him win there.  Which probably isn't completely off the mark as Ross does have the advantage there and we know that does matter in this society.  But no, it couldn't have anything to do with him earlier bragging about holding various voting members' loans hostage or the utter malevolence he's shown up to this point with the smaller amount of power he's been allowed to wield as a magistrate.  It couldn't have anything to do with the crassness he continually shows in rubbing the old gentry's noses in his new money.  The thing is that George isn't wrong about the way the gentry views and treats him.  But constantly coming at them with the huge resulting chip on his shoulder isn't winning him any friends or elections when they have the choice of one of their own over him.

Love love love Elizabeth and Demelza's big moment o' awkward when they realized Valentine and Jeremy were hugging all over each and other playing together.  It's continually amusing that the child they've got playing Valentine looks so much more like Ross with the mop of black curls than the kid playing Ross's acknowledged son does.

[Popples]

LOL at Rowenna (I think that's her name) playing Vicar Meatsweats like a fiddle. I was cackling at his barely contained rage and frustration when he realized she had the upper hand the entire time.

I give the actor who plays Oswald a ton of credit though, he actually sucked and licked on that woman's foot. That made me gag more than anything on Game of Thrones.

That Ross and Drake wrestling scene would have been better with them shirtless. Just saying.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Popples
Unfinished thought

[Driad]

Maybe we can assume that Hugh was not an ancestor of Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings, who wrote the very worst poetry in the history of the universe according to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Sew Sumi]

4 hours ago, Driad said:

Maybe we can assume that Hugh was not an ancestor of Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings, who wrote the very worst poetry in the history of the universe according to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

I thought the Worst Poetry award went to the Vogons. At any rate, far worse than anything Hugh penned.

[Jacks-Son]

15 hours ago, Magnumfangirl said:

Caroline holds Ross in pretty high regard, if she knew the whole story that would change things between the Enyses and Poldarks because she would definitely tell Dwight.

I disagree.  As much as I like Caroline, I don't think knowing that Ross was not a stellar husband will change her opinion of him. At considerable risk to his own life, Ross traveled to France and against all odds saved both Dwight AND Hugh from certain death.  Caroline must know that Dwight was banging Karen right under Mark's nose, just like Demelza in the weeds.  This was one of those episodes bordering on improbable and painful. I had things I liked and things that made me uncomfortable.

Among things I liked:

'Lost Backstreet Boy' Hugh's death.  Just like @Zella said, he insinuated to Demelza, that he would feel immensely better if Demelza would just climb atop him in bed and screw his impending death away.  That would be a sight for both her husband and his father to walk in on.  As much as I liked the Leopard's death (Get it?  Leopard, spotted torso?) Yes, crass, I know, but no more crass than Hugh himself.  I hated that Demelza was more torn up over his death than the possible death of her marriage. Throughout, Ross was an unbelievable trooper and Dwight finally realized that Ross wasn't unaware of the relationship Demelza was having with Hugh. Dwight and Ross are good friends and I don't think Caroline could tell Dwight anything about Ross that he doesn't already know, except perhaps for "that night", but Dwight had many of "those nights" himself. Sure, he wasn't married at the time but Karen and Mark were, but what Dwight did was adultery none-the-less.

Loved that when it came to deciding whether to accept the nomination or not, the Poldarks decided together as husband and wife and accepted the nomination together, holding hands.  I think that the symbology of that dramatic moment was very heartening to me.  

Loved AND laughed when Ossie, the "Odious One", broke the news that Ross had replaced Armitage on the ticket.  He could barely control himself and just blurted out, "Poldark at Parliament" while laughing uproariously at the dinner table.  George probably wet himself, perhaps just a little, after that. Priceless!! AND I loathe Ossie.

LOVED the two Baby Mommas realizing that their boys were practically the spitting image of each other, and that others, BESIDES THEMSELVES, would realize it as THEY had just so brilliantly realized it just then when they exchanged looks of realization and acceptance.  I loved Valentine's joy at hugging Jeremy, his laugh was infectious and wondrous to behold, as well as Jeremy's parting, "Bye, Valentine".  I wish I could have heard what Morwenna whispered to Elizabeth to make her realize that Valentine and Jeremy's behavior was noticeable.

15 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I laughed though when Ross questioned why Demelza went to Caroline for comfort and to talk, and his whole "Can't you talk to me about it?"  Yeah, Ross that's what every wife wants to do.  Talk to her husband about her lover's death, and the feelings she had for him.

Yet, this is exactly what Demelza did and it was hard for Ross to hear, but Demelza was honest in her depiction of what happened and how it led to the affair, and I think it's best that Demelza put it out there and that Ross heard from Demelza herself how she felt about Hugh instead of just reading it in a hastily discarded letter.  I've never read any of the books and I know how such an admission can doom a marriage and I hope this one survives.

And...of course I loved George's delicious fall from near victor to rapidly exiting loser along with his now fully complicit wife and uncle. Cary Warleggan's return to the show was timely that he got to do his ridiculous George introduction in a losing cause. Lost in all that wondrous event was the fact that most of the result of the voting was due to the behind the scenes reasoning and diplomacy from Demelza and Caroline (Debbie Horsfield's show of 'Gurl Power') and Sir Francis Basset's surprising vote, after he realized that Caroline and Demelza were right, that George did a poor job of ensuring the safety of the townspeople by not preventing the riot and the hanging of Zacky's son.  His unexpected vote for Ross opened the flood gates for his followers to eagerly line up en masse to vote for Ross. Good times, eh George? Typically, George reasoned that he lost because of class discrimination. Ha!!!  This from the guy who didn't want Valentine playing with a child beneath his station, the very behavior that Ross and Francis were accused of. How very hypocritical of you, George.  Is there any loathsome trait that George doesn't possess?

Finally, what made me feel uncomfortable was Cudgel's blatant desperate cheating during the wrestling match.  Scratching for Sam's eyes was a despicable tactic and deserved more than a firing from George.  I thought Sure, Ross would enter the fray and beat the ever living shit out of Tom Harry.  I hoped he would and was disappointed that he didn't and that Cudgel won.

Three hours of Demelza sitting at Hugh's deathbed while Ross was left twisting in the wind with regards to his wife's affair and the vote.  Three hours!!!  That's just the time spent waiting to hear from Demelza.  Then, more time added with her breakdown at the Enys house.  I know most readers and viewers side with Demelza as far as who is at fault for the state of their marriage, but is Ross REALLY that bad that Demelza needs to have a full blown sexual relationship outside of her marriage? Yes, Ross had a night he spent with Elizabeth, whatever, your opinion is of that night, but does that negate what Demelza is doing with Hugh?  Ross is mostly guilty of not including Demelza in his exploits, and general failure to pay sufficient attention to Demelza, despite that he's running a mine, trying to restore order in the town, put food on the table for his family and the family of his workers, fight with George and keep his in-laws from being killed by George. Meanwhile, baby-boy Hugh does.........????  Yeah, he deserves a nice cuddle and shag on his deathbed.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[Driad]

33 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

4 hours ago, Driad said:

Maybe we can assume that Hugh was not an ancestor of Paula Nancy Millstone Jennings, who wrote the very worst poetry in the history of the universe according to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

I thought the Worst Poetry award went to the Vogons. At any rate, far worse than anything Hugh penned.

According to HHGTTG, the Vogons were third worst, plenty bad.  Hugh was not in their league.

[HunterHunted]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Loved his uncle staring down old quack Dr. Choate and his plans to drill into his nephew's skull and rethinking firing Dwight from the case.  Medicine as it was practiced at this time could be pretty barbaric and there was a lot people still didn't know, but even Falmouth could see that maybe boring a hole into a man's head probably wasn't going to help matters any. 

Medicine was pretty terrible then, but trepanning had largely fallen out of favor by then. About a decade after this season takes place, Abigal Adams, John Adams' daughter, would be diagnosed with breast cancer and have a mastectomy. She would later die because the cancer had metastasized. Doctors were already inoculating patients. I've never read the books, but I suspect that Dr. Choate was deliberately written to advocate trepanation to indicate that he was horrifically ignorant and backwards.

31 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Loved AND laughed when Ossie, the "Odious One", broke the news that Ross had replaced Armitage on the ticket.  He could barely control himself and just blurted out, "Poldark at Parliament" while laughing uproariously at the dinner table.  George probably wet himself, perhaps just a little, after that. Priceless!! AND I loathe Ossie.

Ossie's obvious relish at relaying this info to George is every bit of karma that George deserves for marrying Morwenna off to this toad. George chose a name and connections over temperament and this is what he got--a hateful troll who still treats George like shit because he doesn't really consider George to be of the same social set.

31 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

LOVED the two Baby Mommas realizing that their boys were practically the spitting image of each other, and that others, BESIDES THEMSELVES, would realize it as THEY had just so brilliantly realized it just then when they exchanged looks of realization and acceptance.  I loved Valentine's joy at hugging Jeremy, his laugh was infectious and wondrous to behold, as well as Jeremy's parting, "Bye, Valentine".  I wish I could have heard what Morwenna whispered to Elizabeth to make her realize that Valentine and Jeremy's behavior was noticeable.

I LOVED this!!!!! It was probably my favorite scene from the episode.

44 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

Finally, what made me feel uncomfortable was Cudgel's blatant desperate cheating during the wrestling match.  Scratching for Sam's eyes was a despicable tactic and deserved more than a firing from George.  I thought Sure, Ross would enter the fray and beat the ever living shit out of Tom Harry.  I hoped he would and was disappointed that he didn't and that Cudgel won.

The lack of repercussions for Tom Harry's cheating bugged me too until I remember that they were operating under the common law. Unfortunately, Sam consented to any potential injury even if Tom Harry blatantly cheated multiple times.

[Neurochick]

16 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

I actually liked Demelza spending so much time with Hugh, and being so upset about his death.  I laughed though when Ross questioned why Demelza went to Caroline for comfort and to talk, and his whole "Can't you talk to me about it?"  Yeah, Ross that's what every wife wants to do.  Talk to her husband about her lover's death, and the feelings she had for him.

The thing is, Demelza was in love with the IDEA of Hugh, not really Hugh himself.  To me, Hugh was like a schoolboy with a crush on his older neighbor.  They took it too far with their sex, but Ross knew damn well that Demelza wouldn't leave him for Hugh, and he's not exactly the most virtuous man either.  Both of them have screwed up in different ways.  It makes better sense to be mature in that case, the only other alternative would be Petty Georgie Porgie.

Yes, everybody can see now that Valentine looks more like Ross than Jeremy...everybody except George, or maybe George can see it.

I loved how Elizabeth looked at Tom Harry, then George like, "You ARE going to fire his ass, aren't you?"  And George was like, "yes dear, happy wife, happy life."

[Jacks-Son]

I have to wonder if Hugh's father/uncle? knew that Hugh was in love with Ross' wife and that a potential tryst was in discussion and that Ross knew about it but didn't make a fuss about it and that also affected his decision to back an accepting Ross as his candidate?

[TigerLynx]

Hugh's uncle's grief might have prevented him from seeing what was right in front of him.  However, that's the only reason I can come up with for him not knowing.  The guy didn't seem like a complete moron.  Between all the Hugh is quite fond of your wife, values her, admires her, etc., and Demezla spending hours sobbing by Hugh's bedside while he dies, I thought it was pretty damn obvious something was going on, they at least had feelings for each other beyond close friendship.

I can't decide who I despise more - Ossie, George or Tom.  I did appreciate Emma pretty much telling Sam, "Yeah, I had sex outside of marriage.  The world didn't end, and I'm not sorry about it."

[Jacks-Son]

8 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

I can't decide who I despise more - Ossie, George or Tom.  I did appreciate Emma pretty much telling Sam, "Yeah, I had sex outside of marriage.  The world didn't end, and I'm not sorry about it."

Why must they be ranked? They each have their own levels of despicable traits.  Ossie has low level self-esteem issues with delusions of piety and inflated self-worth.  His sexual appetites are unappealing.  While having your toes sucked may be pleasurable, I don't have the taste for it regardless if the toes belong to an heiress or a prostitute.  Tom is just a bully and a sniveling coward. His eyes show a malevolence usually reserved for murderers and career criminals and rapists.  While George is a thumb -sucking,  mustache twirling,  evil bastard who will inflict any pain that he can on someone just to prove that he's superior and can cause them pain.  I don't know if his continued abhorrent behavior is solely due to his shoddy treatment by Ross and Francis.  Blamey should have just killed him,  as his only saving grace is that he's Verity's brother.

""Yeah, I had sex outside of marriage.  The world didn't end, and I'm not sorry about it."  is that what she said?  The whole accent thing is difficult to decipher.  (actually the hardest British accents to follow are those spoken in this British show called “No Offence”, damn near impossible to understand unless you came from the British underground) I thought Emma was just telling Sam that Tom was lying and that she didn’t sleep with him (Ewww!!) and hasn’t laid with a man yet but that Sam is too pious for her. 

[Ceindreadh]

I don’t remember what they said in the ep, but if they followed the book then Emma says that no man has had her. 

[Ohiopirate02]

I really had to laugh when George whines about why the landed gentry doesn't like him.  He is too self-absorbed to see that it's not his heritage that is the problem but his actions.  George wants all the privilege of the position with none of the responsibilities.  The men in that room know what he has been up to on the estate he is guardian of.  They can see that George cares more for sticking it to Ross than upholding his and later Geoffrey Charles' responsibilities to the people of the land.   Hiring someone like Tom Harry to do his dirty work has backfired on George.  The locals hate Tom with good reason and word gets around.   George also does not understand why he cannot close a mine as soon as it becomes unprofitable.  Ross gets this.  Ross is willing to forgo profit to pay the wages of his employees because that is his end of the contract.  Yes Ross is also a living folk hero, but Ross fulfills his responsibilities as a landowner.  Also, no one ever likes the man who he owes money to.  The Warleggans will never be completely accepted when the loan out money and threaten the lessees to get their way. 

[Nidratime]

Quote

Blamey should have just killed him,  as his only saving grace is that he's Verity's brother.

That's who I've missed seeing: Verity.

[Hyla]

They do need to bring back Verity.

Glad creepy Hugh is dead. I hope Demelza doesn't feel guilty since she wasn't able to promise him the hope of love that he implied would save his life.

With everything Dwight was saying about Hugh missing something essential that would give him the will to live was the viewer supposed to think he'd died for lack of love from Demelza?

I hope that's not where they're going with her story. 

Finally, Ross steps up and takes responsibility! And George loses the power and prestige he was crowing about for so long. But, poor Elizabeth! She was relying on that gig to distract from Valentine's questionable parentage. 

I suppose it is in Elizabeth's best interest to have a second child by George, but he's not that much better than Ozzie.

Are Ozzie and Rowella going to pick up where they left off? Well, as long as that keeps him away from Morwenna. (Still want to see her with Drake).

Emma was saying that no man had touched her. Because that used to matter then. I don't know if Sam believed her though since he started talking more about her soul. 

[Jacks-Son]

34 minutes ago, Hyla said:

With everything Dwight was saying about Hugh missing something essential that would give him the will to live was the viewer supposed to think he'd died for lack of love from Demelza?

Yes, I also think that's what Dwight implied; that Hugh has lost the Will to live since he has nothing to live for if he cannot have the thing he wants most - Demelza.  Now, how Dwight would know all that is pure conjecture, but I think Dwight went through similar feelings of frustration when he returned from French captivity, plus Dwight was floating around throughout the whole episode.  Every time I turned around Dwight was there. So, he had plenty of opportunity to note the tone of despondency in Hugh's voice.  Boy Band died pining for Demelza and was probably on Suicide-Watch by Dwight.

48 minutes ago, Hyla said:

I hope that's not where they're going with her story.

Due to the nature of the recent events, I'm sure there will be lingering resentment, anger, jealousy, fear, depression.  In which case, there might be some familial disturbance in the Poldark residence in the near future.  Demelza's story will probably not be defined by this incident alone.  She has so much more going for her.  I believe she and Caroline should set up a Think Tank set to advise Ross, he'll need the best people advising him.

[Nidratime]

Quote

With everything Dwight was saying about Hugh missing something essential that would give him the will to live was the viewer supposed to think he'd died for lack of love from Demelza?

I know you're being facetious, but I'm betting Hugh died of a brain tumor, which of course, they had no way of properly diagnosing and certainly couldn't treat back then.

[TigerLynx]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:04 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I really had to laugh when George whines about why the landed gentry doesn't like him.  He is too self-absorbed to see that it's not his heritage that is the problem but his actions.  George wants all the privilege of the position with none of the responsibilities.  The men in that room know what he has been up to on the estate he is guardian of.  They can see that George cares more for sticking it to Ross than upholding his and later Geoffrey Charles' responsibilities to the people of the land.   Hiring someone like Tom Harry to do his dirty work has backfired on George.  The locals hate Tom with good reason and word gets around.   George also does not understand why he cannot close a mine as soon as it becomes unprofitable.  Ross gets this.  Ross is willing to forgo profit to pay the wages of his employees because that is his end of the contract.  Yes Ross is also a living folk hero, but Ross fulfills his responsibilities as a landowner.  Also, no one ever likes the man who he owes money to.  The Warleggans will never be completely accepted when the loan out money and threaten the lessees to get their way. 

What's amusing about this is one of the reasons the commoners got so fed up with the gentry (everywhere in Europe) is because most of them began behaving the way George does, wanting all the privileges and none of the responsibilities.  George and his ilk would have been despised by the gentry for being "new money".  The last thing they needed to do was make the commoners angry by acting as bad as or worse than the gentry.

[dubbel zout]

George has never understood the bond between the gentry and the workers. Of course there were landowners who treated their workers badly and didn't take care of them, but there were likely more who did, even if it was done with some condescension. After all, those crops aren't going to harvest themselves, and there's no way the lord is going to get out there and help.

Ross may be self-righteous to a fault, but he understands how the old system works. And for the time being, that's what system is in Cornwall.

[TigerLynx]

There were far more gentry who abused their power than cared about the workers.  That's one reason the French and Russian Revolutions were so violent and bloody.

Elizabeth is far more intelligent than George.  She knows when to mention her family connections, or to play the helpless female whichever the situation requires.  She also knew to go along with George's belief it was discrimination on the gentry's part, and not his own failings that cost him the election.  George had the opportunity to show the workers he could treat them better than the gentry did, while showing the gentry he had the money to keep things going without constantly threatening everyone's ruin if they didn't kowtow to him, and he failed miserably at both.

[Jacks-Son]

57 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

There were far more gentry who abused their power than cared about the workers.  That's one reason the French and Russian Revolutions were so violent and bloody.

Elizabeth is far more intelligent than George.  She knows when to mention her family connections, or to play the helpless female whichever the situation requires.  She also knew to go along with George's belief it was discrimination on the gentry's part, and not his own failings that cost him the election.  George had the opportunity to show the workers he could treat them better than the gentry did, while showing the gentry he had the money to keep things going without constantly threatening everyone's ruin if they didn't kowtow to him, and he failed miserably at both.

Excellent points.  Unfortunately,  it's been like this for years and nothing changes; George still hasn't learned, there's no evolution or progression with the character.  He's still this self-absorbed, non-aware individual.  If it doesn't advance his standing amongst the gentry or bring in coin, George doesn't pay any heed.  At what point does Elizabeth stop enabling this tiresome behavior?  She has to know that her station must rely on George's good standing and her very continued acceptance in high society can either he welcomed or ridiculed.   George is bordering on having the Warleggan family name become a laughingstock. 

[Nidratime]

In addition to Ross being more considerate of his tenants and workers and trying to help them when times are bad, he also jumps in and lends a hand. He's been seen working in the mine, putting his life at risk, trying to find new lodes of copper and tin. He also has been seen working his own land. He chips in and doesn't just sit in his, admittedly less grand, ivory tower, just collecting the fruits of others' labor. You'll never find George doing that. But, to be fair, you won't find many of Ross' compatriots doing that either.

[TigerLynx]

As a woman in this time period, Elizabeth has little power and few options.  She has actually adapted fairly well considering the circumstances.  I would say people like George don't change, but the truth is, most people don't change.  They are who they are.

Some of the gentry/noble class believed they had an obligation to the people who lived on their lands or in their districts.  They actually took the time to instruct their children and grandchildren in how to manage their estates.  Others didn't give a damn, they didn't care about the people, they didn't care if they bankrupted their own family pursuing what they wanted to do.

The Warleggan's have money and power.  They believe that means they can do whatever they want.  To a certain extent, that's true.  Noble birth, money, power, gender, etc., trump any kind of effort at equality for people in general.

Ironically, Marie Antoinette and Empress Alexandra of Russia had some things in common.  Neither were prepared to become Queen/Empress/Czarina, their husbands weren't prepared for their roles either, they didn't understand or make a lot of effort to learn about the people they ruled, and the problems in their countries had actually been building for decades, but they and their families ultimately paid the price for years of previous mistakes and their own.

[Jacks-Son]

23 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Quote

Blamey should have just killed him,  as his only saving grace is that he's Verity's brother.

That's who I've missed seeing: Verity.

WOW!!!  Did I ever screw up that post.  I incorrectly said that Verity is George's sister, when Verity was, in fact Francis' sister.  Blamey STILL should have killed him.

[Jacks-Son]

15 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

You'll never find George doing that. But, to be fair, you won't find many of Ross' compatriots doing that either.

Which is why when Francis worked the field, it was such a family "feel good moment".  If Francis, who basically loathed to do any manual labor, can WORK the field, George could at least go outside and LOOK at his land.  I think the Cudgel/Sam wrestling match was the first time I've seen George outside, other than around the manor peeing on Aunt Agatha's grave.

[Ceindreadh]

6 hours ago, Nidratime said:

In addition to Ross being more considerate of his tenants and workers and trying to help them when times are bad, he also jumps in and lends a hand. He's been seen working in the mine, putting his life at risk, trying to find new lodes of copper and tin. He also has been seen working his own land. He chips in and doesn't just sit in his, admittedly less grand, ivory tower, just collecting the fruits of others' labor. You'll never find George doing that. But, to be fair, you won't find many of Ross' compatriots doing that either.

 

6 hours ago, Jacks-Son said:

Which is why when Francis worked the field, it was such a family "feel good moment".  If Francis, who basically loathed to do any manual labor, can WORK the field, George could at least go outside and LOOK at his land.  I think the Cudgel/Sam wrestling match was the first time I've seen George outside, other than around the manor peeing on Aunt Agatha's grave.

To be fair though - while I don’t doubt that Ross enjoys the bit of physical labour - a lot of the time he was working in the fields because he couldn’t afford to hire enough people so he wouldn’t have to. George and most of Ross’s compatriots have the money to hire people to work their lands so there’s no need for them to strip off and grab a scythe. 

[nodorothyparker]

George's problem is that he's trying to have it both ways.  He hates the gentry and enjoys ruining them financially when he can.  But he also desperately wants to be one of them. 

Full credit that he and Uncle Cary have made what would have been considered a massive fortune, and this was a time period when successful members of the rising merchant class sometimes bought their way into peerage.  But George goes around flaunting that wealth not with the old money sense of it that Elizabeth naturally has but like the neauvo riche that he is while demanding immediate acceptance as an equal from people who have been raised from birth to believe that name and lineage mean something.  Because he's not of that background he also has none of the sense of noblesse oblige that a family like the Poldarks would have been expected to have in overseeing the local church or justice system.  He has to be goaded into making a charitable donation as a wager, for example.  He takes those offices that traditionally would have gone to someone like Francis to preen about and punitively nurse his petty slights against the "vulgars" or people like Ross.  Basically he's trying to live like nobility while still acting like a merchant in shuttering mines to leave the commoners without wages while jacking grain prices to exacerbate shortages and hunger.  This probably has as much as anything to do with Bassett throwing his vote and influence over other votes to Ross and against George at a time when they'd all be keenly aware of the recent French Revolution and the fallout from it just across the channel.  George isn't just behaving as badly as some of the worst indolent nobility, he's actively harming the people they're trying to avoid rising up against them.

[Ohiopirate02]

11 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

As a woman in this time period, Elizabeth has little power and few options.  She has actually adapted fairly well considering the circumstances.  I would say people like George don't change, but the truth is, most people don't change.  They are who they are.

Some of the gentry/noble class believed they had an obligation to the people who lived on their lands or in their districts.  They actually took the time to instruct their children and grandchildren in how to manage their estates.  Others didn't give a damn, they didn't care about the people, they didn't care if they bankrupted their own family pursuing what they wanted to do.

 

Yes Elizabeth does not have a lot of power in this time period, but she helped to create this situation.  When Francis died he left the guardianship of Geoffrey Charles to both Elizabeth and Ross.  Elizabeth chose to cede her responsibilities to George and asked that Ross step aside.  The George Warleggans are living in the home of Geoffrey Charles and George is managing the estate until he comes of age.  While GC is cash poor he does own the estate.  George's insistence of hiring a man like Tom Harry to harass the tenants can backfire on GC when he takes over the estate.  Also, GC does not have anyone to really teach him how to properly run the estate.   When the time comes for GC to take over the estate, what will he have left?

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

When Francis died he left the guardianship of Geoffrey Charles to both Elizabeth and Ross.  Elizabeth chose to cede her responsibilities to George and asked that Ross step aside.

I'm curious: Since George married Elizabeth, does he automatically become Geoffrey Charles's guardian, regardless of Francis's wishes? And even if it weren't automatic, could Elizabeth or Ross have stopped George had he wanted to be Geoffrey Charles's guardian? As Elizabeth's husband, he has a lot of power.

I doubt he cares about what Geoffrey Charles will inherit, given that GC is a hated Poldark. It's another way to stick it Ross.

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm curious: Since George married Elizabeth, does he automatically become Geoffrey Charles's guardian, regardless of Francis's wishes? And even if it weren't automatic, could Elizabeth or Ross have stopped George had he wanted to be Geoffrey Charles's guardian? As Elizabeth's husband, he has a lot of power.

I doubt he cares about what Geoffrey Charles will inherit, given that GC is a hated Poldark. It's another way to stick it Ross.

I believe that Ross could fight George for control of GC's guardianship but he has chosen not to.  The case would be very expensive and George has more resources than Ross.  Typically you would not have the mother be listed as the legal guardian because she could remarry.  Usually it would be a trusted male family member or friend.  In theory, you wanted to keep the estate in the family.  I don't know how much trouble George could have caused if Elizabeth had not ceded her responsibility.  If Elizabeth had not been so angry at Ross when she married George, then they could have worked out an arrangement that would have benefited everyone.  Francis also should not have chosen his wife for this duty.  He never would have imagined Elizabeth would marry George, but he should have expected her to marry again.  He knew how poor they were and Elizabeth was going to have to remarry in order to live.  This will was probably drawn up when Francis was suicidal. 

[Jacks-Son]

Masterpiece: Poldark Season 4, episode 2: Recap

Paging Dr. Choake

Leeches are just one of the treatments in Dr. Choake’s medicine bag of horrors (see “trepanning,” and shudder) But it’s Dwight who best understands what’s really ailing Hugh: a heart broken by the knowledge that Demelza’s belongs to Ross.

[TigerLynx]

9 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yes Elizabeth does not have a lot of power in this time period, but she helped to create this situation.  When Francis died he left the guardianship of Geoffrey Charles to both Elizabeth and Ross.  Elizabeth chose to cede her responsibilities to George and asked that Ross step aside.  The George Warleggans are living in the home of Geoffrey Charles and George is managing the estate until he comes of age.  While GC is cash poor he does own the estate.  George's insistence of hiring a man like Tom Harry to harass the tenants can backfire on GC when he takes over the estate.  Also, GC does not have anyone to really teach him how to properly run the estate.   When the time comes for GC to take over the estate, what will he have left?

Elizabeth needed money.  Francis left them in debt.  Just one of the things that sucked about being a woman in this time period.  Women were dependent on men for almost everything, there were not a lot of jobs available, and someone of Elizabeth's station wouldn't want the jobs that were.  So she remarried to secure her's and her son's futures.  Elizabeth would be better at teaching her son how to run the estate than either of her husbands would have been.

[Anothermi]

21 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

To be fair though - while I don’t doubt that Ross enjoys the bit of physical labour - a lot of the time he was working in the fields because he couldn’t afford to hire enough people so he wouldn’t have to. George and most of Ross’s compatriots have the money to hire people to work their lands so there’s no need for them to strip off and grab a scythe. 

Ross was also the son of the 2nd born Poldark - in an age where the 1st son inherited everything. He basically had the name and the heritage (and the charisma). So, while he was better off than most, he was related to people who were rich instead of being rich himself (and his father had not kept up with what they did have.)

I'm sure he grew up having to do more work to maintain his holdings than Francis ever did so he wasn't afraid of mucking in.

[seacliffsal]

I really hate the "I'll die if you don't love me" trope that Hugh pulled on Demelza.  I do not see him as a romantic in any way-he is a total manipulator.  How many people have wanted to break up/divorce someone who then pulled out the "I'll kill myself" or "you'll be responsible for what I do" lines?  Way to try to guilt someone into staying.  I wish that Demelza had told Hugh that she was not responsible should he live or die.

I don't know how or when, but Caroline is now one of my favorites.  Well, and her dog.

I am excited to see how the story develops now that Ross will be in Parliament.

[Jacks-Son]

3 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I really hate the "I'll die if you don't love me" trope that Hugh pulled on Demelza.  I do not see him as a romantic in any way-he is a total manipulator.  How many people have wanted to break up/divorce someone who then pulled out the "I'll kill myself" or "you'll be responsible for what I do" lines?  Way to try to guilt someone into staying.  I wish that Demelza had told Hugh that she was not responsible should he live or die.

The thought that someone would actually say these things to someone they love is laughable. However, while I dislike that whole storyline, I don't think it was done out of pure manipulation.  I think Hugh is simply naïve and too much of a child.  He reminds me of a child that can't get the toy he wants because another kid is playing with it and won't share.  I want it!....(pout!!). He's not manipulating Demelza, he's simply showing that he's a toddler while he's dying.  If a woman told me that, I would be so completely turned off that I would think she was weak-willed and not someone with whom I should continue a relationship with.

[dubbel zout]

Hugh's a really young man who's besotted with a woman, and he's dying to boot. There are a lot of Feelings to deal with. I kind of get where he's coming from. It's a little early for the Romantic era, but Hugh certainly has the emotion down.

I do think the show overdid things a bit with this story, but it was also a way for Demelza and Ross to be able to talk about their relationship.

[Casually Observant]

On 10/8/2018 at 12:21 PM, Jacks-Son said:

"LOVED the two Baby Mommas realizing that their boys were practically the spitting image of each other, and that others, BESIDES THEMSELVES, would realize it as THEY had just so brilliantly realized it just then when they exchanged looks of realization and acceptance.  I loved Valentine's joy at hugging Jeremy, his laugh was infectious and wondrous to behold, as well as Jeremy's parting, "Bye, Valentine".  I wish I could have heard what Morwenna whispered to Elizabeth to make her realize that Valentine and Jeremy's behavior was noticeable."

Well now, I didn't get that take from that scene at all. One boy was taller and had straight, close-cropped golden brown hair (Demelza's) while the other was smaller and younger perhaps with dark curly hair like his mother (Elizabeth). They two boys were near in age and seemed to like each other as playmates, but nothing more.  I went back and watched the scene over and over, but I saw no obvious resemblance or inference that this was being implied at all.  I think the awkward glances between their mothers was that the two families bore such animosity between them that the thought of their boys being together as playmates was just too uncomfortable and not going to be allowed.

[Nidratime]

Quote

I think the awkward glances between their mothers was that the two families bore such animosity between them that the thought of their boys being together as playmates was just too uncomfortable and not going to be allowed.

I agree with this interpretation.

My fantasy plot line would be a potential romance between Valentine and Clowance (Ross and Demelza's daughter) and the horrified reactions of their parents. LOL! Of course, as I understand it, this show will not get far enough along for that type of thing to happen.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Quote

I think the awkward glances between their mothers was that the two families bore such animosity between them that the thought of their boys being together as playmates was just too uncomfortable and not going to be allowed.

I agree with this interpretation.

Not to mention it might bring to light the fact that the boys are half-brothers. Elizabeth is desperately trying to keep that from George, even though I think he realizes it on some level. As long as it isn't publicly acknowledged, I think George can pretend it's not true. He's already somewhat responsible for one Poldark (Geoffrey Charles). He doesn't want to deal with another.

[nodorothyparker]

It's probably a combination of all of the above.  George wants very badly to believe that Valentine is his son.  As long as they maintain all the boundaries and distance from each other, most people are naturally only going to see Valentine as the offspring of George and Elizabeth.  Even Geoffrey Charles as a Poldark and his half-brother doesn't challenge that because they have the same mother.  But put him next to any other Poldarks, especially a half-brother close to him in age, and there's always the danger that people might notice certain similarities even if they don't have any context to know what it means.  Neither Elizabeth or Demelza want any mental wheels to start spinning or tongues wagging on that front because it can't lead anywhere good for either family with all the animosity and George's jealousy and suspicions that already exist.  They surely don't want the reminder either.

[Jacks-Son]

On 10/17/2018 at 8:44 PM, Casually Observant said:

Well now, I didn't get that take from that scene at all. One boy was taller and had straight, close-cropped golden brown hair (Demelza's) while the other was smaller and younger perhaps with dark curly hair like his mother (Elizabeth). They two boys were near in age and seemed to like each other as playmates, but nothing more.  I went back and watched the scene over and over, but I saw no obvious resemblance or inference that this was being implied at all.  I think the awkward glances between their mothers was that the two families bore such animosity between them that the thought of their boys being together as playmates was just too uncomfortable and not going to be allowed.

So, it's your belief that there was nothing more in that interaction than BOTH Elizabeth and Demelza wanted the boys separated simply because their two families are at "war"?  Two kids who obviously enjoy each other's company can't play together because both their mothers simultaneously thought that it wasn't suitable? I didn't see that many other kids around for either kid to play with.  How do they explain to kids that they can't play with each other because the two families are having a silly feud?  The incident seemed more than just two mothers who felt their sons shouldn't play with another boy.  Incidentally, my memory seems to picture Valentine in that scene and the later scene when GC comes home, where Valentine no longer had black, curly hair. I don't know if it's a different actor, but Valentine's hair seemed a lot straighter and a lot fuller.  When GC greeted Valentine and picked him up, George got a chance to view their hair right next to each other. Valentine's hair didn't seem to be curly at all. It looked liked just a large mop of black non-curly hair.  Perhaps it's because as @nodorothyparker and I believe, that Valentine IS Ross' son and both Elizabeth AND Demelza are obviously aware of this, hence the swiftness to separate the two kids before others became aware of any similarities; also hence the extended look between Elizabeth AND Demelza.  In my opinion, that scene was filmed to show way more significance between the interaction than simply two mothers who were concerned that their child would get swept up in the Hatfields and the McCoys local drama.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[Nolefan]

Sorry if this was addressed somewhere else, maybe last season’s discussion, but does Demelza know that Valentine is Ross’ son? I cannot for the life of me understand why Ross and Demelza have not discussed this — it is a BIG deal that your husband has a child with another woman. Maybe it is the American in me (more used to talking about sensitive stuff), but I cannot stand this about Ross and Demelza’s relationship.  There seems to be a bunch of talking in some sort of ambiguous code, but they seem incapable of just directly speaking to each other, and Valentine being Ross’ love child is a prime example of this. Just seems like Ross and Demelza’s relationship has just been spinning its wheels since Season 2, and, frankly, it is boring me now.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Nolefan