Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[Goldmoon]

Quote

As for less brother banter, with Jared and Jensen only working part time these days, maybe the writers are trying to maximize the time they have with them.  One day of shooting equals five minutes of screen time, so while a 2 minute exchange may not seem like much, that would be almost half of one of Jensen and Jared's shooting days. 

Then they should have 30 seconds here and there which is what, one eighth of their shooting days by your formula?  It is too important to remember the relationship that drew us to the show in the first place.  And if, by your reckoning, it would take half a day to do a two minute riff like the one I described above, it would be well worth it!

[Geordiegirl1967]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think it's exclusion was indicative of any pandering or intentionally playing down the brothers relationship. But that's just my opinion.

The point I was addressing was the opposite of this. I was responding to someone saying that if they HAD hugged (and some other examples I gave where some organic, in character moments between the brothers could have been added) it would have been 'pandering' and 'condescending'. I certainly wasn't saying that the writers NOT putting that hug in was pandering etc.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

This might be an unpopular opinion but Sam and Dean reunions where one comes back from the dead are about a dime a dozen at this point.  No need to repeat the exact same material. 

You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree. But my broader point was that as this is their usual response when they are reunited after a traumatic event it would have made perfect sense and been totally organic and in character for them to have done it in ep2. Which begs the question - why didn't the writers include ANY emotional reaction to their situation? Doesn't need to have been a hug; a look, teary eyes, an emotionally delivered line, a touch on the shoulder, helping Sam up, showing concern for his injuries, ANYTHING. In fact it was treated like Sam had been a bit longer on a beer run than they were expecting rather than a mentally and physically tortured, badly injured (he'd been shot aswell as all the torture wounds) and grief stricken Sam, and a frantically worried, furious (at Lady B who had hurt Sam) yet relieved Dean reuniting. Dean seeing how hurt Sam was. Sam realising his brother was alive. An emotionally charged moment you would think. Yet we got nada. It was poorly written and it undermined all the set up that had led them to that moment. That's how good drama works; you lay the trail, you move your pieces on the board, you strum at peoples emotions and build up the tension. If there isn't then a pay off people feel cheated and let down. These points aren't just about Sam and Dean (though that is the point in this example) it is about good writing and the fall in writing quality we've seen this season of which this was the first and still one of the worst examples. 

And it hasn't just been in the big moments that they have let themselves down and underserved the relationship. 

4 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Not enough casual interaction that makes me smile.  I  just watched Hibbing 911 from season 10.  After the boys interrogated the sheriff and his deputy, Sam cautioned Dean to not get so protective of his fake FBI job.  Dean said, "This badge means something!" completely seriously and Sam said, "I made it at Kinko's" Then Dean says, "you should be proud of that" while walking away.  This is one of my favorite dialog exchanges ever.  Did we need the info that the badges were made at Kinko's?  Not really, but it was a 20 second piece of banter that highlighted the boys' camaraderie and was very funny, too, especially with the actors' delivery.  THIS is what I want to see more of.  Throwaway moments that bring me into the personal orbit of the character's sense of humor.  The show is so angst-ridden that these little touches remind me why I started watching in the first place.

I agree with this. These things are not hard to fix. Writing little exchanges like the above - which s11 was fantastic at sprinkling in - is vital to what makes the show fun to watch. 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As for less brother banter, with Jared and Jensen only working part time these days, maybe the writers are trying to maximize the time they have with them.  One day of shooting equals five minutes of screen time, so while a 2 minute exchange may not seem like much, that would be almost half of one of Jensen and Jared's shooting days.

So re the comment above - yes the Js are on set less than they were in the early seasons. But they are still there most of the time and there are plenty of scenes written that they are both in. So why waste that valuable on-screen time with pointless exposition, viewing bodies, talking to witnesses which they could do in their frequent 'you do this while I do that' excuses for doing scenes separately. Why not use to showcase the bond, have some banter, a bit of teasing, whatever. That is certainly more entertaining than montages of them researching or looking in the fridge for bugs! It is an easy fix so why not do it?

1 hour ago, Goldmoon said:

Then they should have 30 seconds here and there which is what, one eighth of their shooting days by your formula?  It is too important to remember the relationship that drew us to the show in the first place.  And if, by your reckoning, it would take half a day to do a two minute riff like the one I described above, it would be well worth it!

Totally agree!

My general point is that the writers have seriously under served the key relationship on the show and have squandered all that history, emotion and the incredible chemistry between the Js by having them do no more than; deliver exposition, punctuated by place holders like 'have you heard from Mom/Cas', 'any leads on Kelly' etc, get knocked out or not even be on screen when the main action goes down (variously affecting both Sam and Dean this season), be hit with the stupid stick to make silly plots work, and so on. Meanwhile it seems like all the writing effort has gone into Ketch/Mick/Rowena/Crowley/Cas/Mary/whoever. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Geordiegirl1967

[Res]

4 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Then they should have 30 seconds here and there which is what, one eighth of their shooting days by your formula?  It is too important to remember the relationship that drew us to the show in the first place.  And if, by your reckoning, it would take half a day to do a two minute riff like the one I described above, it would be well worth it!

That might have been what drew some viewers into the show but YMMV. I didn't get drawn in by it and, if anything, especially lately, UO I find it beyond irritating (in fact, I find it infuriating) that the writers would rather cut short potentially interesting storylines, ignore realistic consequences and create OOC moments just to pander to something that wasn't originally part of the show just because they lucked into two Texas boys who really sold the brother chemistry. There weren't even supposed to be brothers in Kripke's original plan then, when they needed to be brothers, family wasn't supposed to be the main focus of the show. 

That being said, yes, I know the show is now about Sam and Dean, their trials and tribulations in the unknown supernatural world but their "bro-bond" was not the focus and has never been MY focus. I came because of the supernatural, mythology and Dean's strength of character (because Sam didn't really feature much in the first episode I saw of the show). That's what pulled me in and kept me interested through season 1 where their relationship was not that great. I still think season two was the best one in regards to their relationship and the only one where they were actually equal as well as on the same page. After that, it never really recovered from all the drama and angst so I'd rather have things at least be semi-logical and plausibly realistic in the relationship of the writing. Just hunting together and talking to each other normally does NOT make on them on the same page IMO. It means they are coworkers who are related and have history which is fine as far as I'm concerned because, contrary to several opinions I see here, I know this is the UO thread, there hasn't been serious resolution for a lot of things that have happened over the past seasons. 

The fact that the show continuously winds up the viewers over the season only to sweep everything under the rug for the next one doesn't make everything okay. The writers ignoring what happened for whatever made up reason ("time", "men don't talk it out", etc.) because they have a new idea, they wrote themselves into a corner, etc., just make the writing look even more incompetent because DO have "time" to make "men talk it out" when they do things that they want to, like intense damning speeches or decisions it takes two years for a character to apologize for while other things are brought up every other episodes to make a character look bad. 

So, yeah, UO, not only do I not watch for the infamous "bro-bond", I actually believe in it and think the show and the characters would be better served while growing more with the brothers NOT ALWAYS hunting together. Expand the cast with one brother or the other teaming up with other hunters for whatever reason. Or Sam researching at the bunker while Dean is out with a hunter. The reverse works as well. It also works better with the Js request for time off.

At this point, the "brothers stay together" formula feels very played out, rote and extremely predictable. 

[CluelessDrifter]

11 hours ago, Res said:

That might have been what drew some viewers into the show but YMMV. I didn't get drawn in by it and, if anything, especially lately, UO I find it beyond irritating (in fact, I find it infuriating) that the writers would rather cut short potentially interesting storylines, ignore realistic consequences and create OOC moments just to pander to something that wasn't originally part of the show just because they lucked into two Texas boys who really sold the brother chemistry. There weren't even supposed to be brothers in Kripke's original plan then, when they needed to be brothers, family wasn't supposed to be the main focus of the show. 

That being said, yes, I know the show is now about Sam and Dean, their trials and tribulations in the unknown supernatural world but their "bro-bond" was not the focus and has never been MY focus. I came because of the supernatural, mythology and Dean's strength of character (because Sam didn't really feature much in the first episode I saw of the show). That's what pulled me in and kept me interested through season 1 where their relationship was not that great. I still think season two was the best one in regards to their relationship and the only one where they were actually equal as well as on the same page. After that, it never really recovered from all the drama and angst so I'd rather have things at least be semi-logical and plausibly realistic in the relationship of the writing. Just hunting together and talking to each other normally does NOT make on them on the same page IMO. It means they are coworkers who are related and have history which is fine as far as I'm concerned because, contrary to several opinions I see here, I know this is the UO thread, there hasn't been serious resolution for a lot of things that have happened over the past seasons. 

The fact that the show continuously winds up the viewers over the season only to sweep everything under the rug for the next one doesn't make everything okay. The writers ignoring what happened for whatever made up reason ("time", "men don't talk it out", etc.) because they have a new idea, they wrote themselves into a corner, etc., just make the writing look even more incompetent because DO have "time" to make "men talk it out" when they do things that they want to, like intense damning speeches or decisions it takes two years for a character to apologize for while other things are brought up every other episodes to make a character look bad. 

So, yeah, UO, not only do I not watch for the infamous "bro-bond", I actually believe in it and think the show and the characters would be better served while growing more with the brothers NOT ALWAYS hunting together. Expand the cast with one brother or the other teaming up with other hunters for whatever reason. Or Sam researching at the bunker while Dean is out with a hunter. The reverse works as well. It also works better with the Js request for time off.

At this point, the "brothers stay together" formula feels very played out, rote and extremely predictable. 

I think for me, my annoyance about the lack of communication between the brothers isn't as much about the bro-bond as it is us missing out on their POV.  Like, I'd really like to know what they think about some of the things going on this season, but we haven't really seen it, because they either don't know about most of the things going on this season, or those conversations between them have taken place off screen (I guess?), they haven't talked to anyone else about them, and we haven't really seen them have any alone time to show us that they're struggling with something.  I think it's a disservice to both characters to have them so emotionally far removed from the stories, is what I guess I mean.

Edited May 17, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[shang yiet]

Focus on the bro bond does not mean the brothers have to be joined at the hip. It does not mean the brothers have to agree on everything. It does not mean they must never quarrel.

I think Mary took the focus off the bro bond this season. Sam and Dean barely had any time to react to their reunion since a bigger more astounding reunion with Mary awaited.

And yes, I would like more focus on the bro bond, that very complex and fascinating relationship that pondlass described. That bond and the supernatural drew me to the show. Now the supernatural is boring neverending angel wars so there's just the bro bond left.

[ILoveReading]

23 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Dean sold his soul to bring his brother back to life. You don't do that for a 'co-worker'. You do that for someone you love and want to protect. That wasn't sub text you could choose to pick up on or not. It is canon. It is text.

I personally don't think Dean did this because of of his unconditional love for Sam.  He did it because its a product of Dean's twisted up psyche.  Dean feels Sam's life is worth more than his.  This is what John brainwashed him into thinking from a very early age.   He did it because he thought he failed Sam and couldn't live with him dead.  That is not the same as not being able to live without someone as we've seen Dean this without Sam when he was at school and after Sam went to hell.  Selling your soul also pretty much guaruntees you won't be with that person. 

IMO, the brothers trying to sacrifice themselves for the other isn't a "bond"  It's a toxic codependecny that has hurt more people then its helped since it started two apocalypses.

[SueB]

This is my favorite art today.

Edited May 17, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought Sam and Anna had a lot of chemistry as did Dean and Ruby 2.0. And, I hold a very unpopular opinion that Lisa and Dean had loads of onscreen chemistry.

That's kind of funny, because I remember discussing season 3 somewhere and a lot of people thought that Dean/Ruby and Sam/Bela had more chemistry than the intended pairings.  As far as those 4 go, I didn't particularly see any chemistry beteen ny of them.  And, all I really got from Sam/Anna was  Sam put his hand on should after he told her her parents were dead.

[Aeryn13]

While I think the writers have missed the mark in portraying a positive bond by IMO romanticizing stuff I can`t get onboard with, I believe the relationship between the brothers is supposed to be this all-encompassing force of awe and wonder the show revolves around. Carver seemed to be someone who personally wanted to tone it down a good deal but he a) he went too far in the other direction by demonizing stuff that would be more than acceptable in much more normal relationships, i.e. "not looking is so mature" and b) once the negative reaction hit, he turned tail and ran screaming.  

What other shows do (and screw up) in terms of romantic pairings. the SPN writers do on this show. Basically, Dean and Sam are the "it-couple" of the show. Unfortunately, they don`t work for me.

Thing is, the show build itself at least to some degree on "the brothers" and a too dramatic shift 13 years in won`t work. That`s why they can`t get a spin-off going. The appeal seems quite insular. However, I don`t believe any of the writing problems this year have much to do with the bro-bond. It was neither here nor there for the most part. Not dramatic secret-keeping wangst and neither "codependency is the most romantic thing ever". It`s all the other stuff they fucked up. 

[Whimsy]

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[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I personally don't think Dean did this because of of his unconditional love for Sam.  He did it because its a product of Dean's twisted up psyche.  Dean feels Sam's life is worth more than his.  This is what John brainwashed him into thinking from a very early age.   He did it because he thought he failed Sam and couldn't live with him dead.  That is not the same as not being able to live without someone as we've seen Dean this without Sam when he was at school and after Sam went to hell.  Selling your soul also pretty much guaruntees you won't be with that person. 

IMO, the brothers trying to sacrifice themselves for the other isn't a "bond"  It's a toxic codependecny that has hurt more people then its helped since it started two apocalypses.

I agree with this, for the most part, but with some qualifications. First of all, while I don't think your post implied that Dean doesn't deeply and sincerely love Sam, in the context of the larger discussion of how central the bro-bond is too the show, I do want to clarify that I think Dean certainly did it in part because of genuine love for Sam, and not simply because he is programmed with the prime directive of "save Sam." The fact that Dean would be willing to damn his immortal soul to hell in order to save Sam reflects a deeply, deeply distorted sense of self-worth, but there is real love behind the sacrifice. No matter how much you love someone, it is almost always possible to live without them; that's part of life, and it is what people do. But there are plenty of emotionally healthy people who I think would be willing to die in a loved one's place if it were possible to do so, and not simply because they don't think they could continue on if they were gone. Again, the fact that Dean is damning his soul pushes this over the line from noble sacrifice to incredibly messed up, but that doesn't mean the entire relationship can be boiled down to "Dean thinks he is worth nothing if he can't save Sam."

One of my unpopular opinions is that I actually sometimes like it when a character puts the immediate survival of a loved one above the greater good. Sure, if "greater good" literally means saving/not endangering the world -- as it often does, on this show -- then putting aside your own personal feelings is the necessary call, no matter how agonizing. But short of that, I think it is only human -- and, in some ways, more sympathetic than the alternative -- to act based on overwhelming love for those closest to you rather than considering the utilitarian calculus of letting your loved one die so that some greater number of others might live. The end of S1, I think, is a good example. From any logical perspective, Sam was dead wrong not to kill John in order to kill Azazel (especially knowing what we know now). But I liked the fact that the show actually seemed to validate that choice - John was wrong for saying that the mission was more important than family, and Dean had been right in consistently pushing Sam in the opposite direction. Which is one reason I wasn't fond of Carver's penchant for forcing situations that emphasized the unhealthiness and destructiveness of choosing family. Kripke struck the right balance for me, whereas Carver vastly overshot the mark. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by companionenvy

[shang yiet]

Focus on the bro bond does not mean everything is unicorns and rainbows. By all means, show the dark and negative side of the bond. Show all the dark and light layers. I'm fine with it. This is the most complex relationship on the show so why not continue to touch on it. Kripke never was unicorns and rainbows about the bro bond. We saw the complicated feelings Sam and Dean had for each other right from the start. Just because I want focus on the bro bond does not mean I am seeing rainbows.

I remember when Sam chose not to kill possessed John because Dean was begging him to, fandom cheered Sam on. Because, family, you know. Now it seems Sam was wrong.
 

Quote

 

I think Dean certainly did it in part because of genuine love for Sam, and not simply because he is programmed with the prime directive of "save Sam.

 

I agree. Dean is not the Terminator programmed to save John Conner at all costs. But I 'm curious because Sam has also been willing to give up his life for Dean. Was Sam also brainwashed by John to think he is worthless without Dean?

[companionenvy]

39 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

But I 'm curious because Sam has also been willing to give up his life for Dean. Was Sam also brainwashed by John to think he is worthless without Dean?

Exactly. Sam was even willing to take Dean's place in hell - although the difference, I think, is that Sam, devastated as he would have been by Dean's death, wouldn't have made the original deal. That's where John's erosion of Dean's self-worth came into it. No matter how angry he was at Dean having made the deal in the first place, Sam couldn't cope with knowing that Dean was in hell for Sam, to the extent that, if one of them was going to have to be damned, he was willing for it to be him. But Dean wasn't saving Sam from eternal torment. He was submitting himself to eternal torment to save Sam from what was, at worst (as they didn't know about heaven at the time), non-existence. 

Of course, Sam has had his own issues with self-loathing, but they came from a different source, namely his feeling of being tainted and different. And I do think Sam's willingness to trade for Dean was motivated in part by the sense that if anyone deserved hell, it was Sam.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Exactly. Sam was even willing to take Dean's place in hell - although the difference, I think, is that Sam, devastated as he would have been by Dean's death, wouldn't have made the original deal. That's where John's erosion of Dean's self-worth came into it. No matter how angry he was at Dean having made the deal in the first place, Sam couldn't cope with knowing that Dean was in hell for Sam, to the extent that, if one of them was going to have to be damned, he was willing for it to be him. But Dean wasn't saving Sam from eternal torment. He was submitting himself to eternal torment to save Sam from what was, at worst (as they didn't know about heaven at the time), non-existence. 

Of course, Sam has had his own issues with self-loathing, but they came from a different source, namely his feeling of being tainted and different. And I do think Sam's willingness to trade for Dean was motivated in part by the sense that if anyone deserved hell, it was Sam.

Yes.  ITA.  Dean traded his soul for Sam's life, which was moronic. It's like trading a million dollars for a penny.  But, Sam was trying to trade his soul for Dean's soul which is even.  Plus, he had the guilt factor of knowing it was his fault Dean was in Hell, which Dean really shouldn't have felt when Sam died.  At least not to that extent.  Of course, he's going to feel guilty and do the whole "if we just got there 5 minutes earlier" spiel, or whatever.  But, Sam's death was not a direct consequence of anything to do with Dean, unlike Dean's deal directly dealing with Sam.

[gonzosgirrl]

My UO:  IDGAF about the majority of the other characters on the show unless their story is directly interwoven with Dean & Sam. ie, Jody & the vampires, Donna and the fish-tacos, etc. I watch for the Winchesters.

[Mulva]

I'm glad Cas is gone.  They ran out of ideas for the character years ago.

[companionenvy]

23 minutes ago, Mulva said:

I'm glad Cas is gone.  They ran out of ideas for the character years ago.

Gone doesn't have to mean dead. I would have been fine with Cas being written out, but it didn't have to be this way (if he is, in fact, gone).

If Cas IS dead, I'm bitter at the unceremonious, meaningless death of such a core character. I understand that deaths in real life are frequently random and without purpose. And if Cas had been better treated over the past several seasons, I might accept this as a quick, shocking exit. But as the show explicitly acknowledged this season, Cas hasn't had a win for ages. Instead, he's basically screwed up in every way possible, and has been diminished to the extent where he couldn't even complete an ordinary hunt on his own. Absolutely disrespectful to a character with such epic beginnings, and such a long history on this show.

If Cas ISN'T dead, I'm annoyed at the show for manipulating us.

And if Misha comes back as alt-Cas, I may be done. Although I'm a glutton for punishment, so I'll probably be around until the bitter end. 

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

. And if Cas had been better treated over the past several seasons, I might accept this as a quick, shocking exit. But as the show explicitly acknowledged this season, Cas hasn't had a win for ages. Instead, he's basically screwed up in every way possible, and has been diminished to the extent where he couldn't even complete an ordinary hunt on his own. Absolutely disrespectful to a character with such epic beginnings, and such a long history on this show.

This is what the show is doing this season for any character not named Sam. If Crowley stays dead, it is awful they overshadowed his death with Cas's. And then Rowena didn't even get an onscreen death. If either Crowley or Rowena are dead dead, it's a jerk move whether Cas comes back or not. And I think he will, but I think Mark is moving on. Like I said, Jerk move Dabb. Way to treat actors who have given years to the show."

[Hana Chan]

Been awhile since I posted here, but I need to say this - Castiel was long past his expiration date.

For me, the only two characters that are completely indispensible are Dean and Sam. End of story. Everyone else is a supporting player in their story and it's been clear for a very long time that the show was running out of justifications to keep Castiel around. He's been useful at time, and more often than not convenient for a cheap laugh, but his purpose has long since passed. And we've lost other supporting players that I felt a ton of affection so I never felt that Castiel was off limits to being removed permanently. It was especially problematic when the writers tried, unsuccessfully IMO, to expand Castiel's storyline to run more independently of the Winchesters. 

So if this really is Castiel's final death, I'm more than okay with that. He was never my favorite and I'm hoping that in the next season that we can return to something along the lines of season one where it was all Sam and Dean, all the time. 

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Hana Chan said:

I'm hoping that in the next season that we can return to something along the lines of season one where it was all Sam and Dean, all the time. 

Not going to happen. The Js have negotiated time off screen so we are going to get secondary characters even if it isn't Cas. However, I think Cas will be back. I just hope they improve his writing, Of course I hope they improve Dean's more.

[ZennyKenny]

Hi, this is the bitterness thread? Good. I have some bitterness to expel. Because I've slept on it, and digested last night's season finale.

What utter bullshit. God I fucking hate these writers so damn much. They are just so immature. They think that killing people to shock us is good writing. It's not, it's shit writing.

They have almost zero imagination when it comes to giving the characters interesting stories. You really can't give Crowley anything other than ANOTHER cat & mouse back-and-forth with Lucifer? Or to send Cas back to heaven AGAIN?? The fans could think of tons of better unique stories for these guys!

How could you make demons look so scary in the early seasons, and yet make Hell... MFing HELL, look so damn boring with prim & proper suit & tie guys standing around holding their hands in front of them? You could have done so much more with that set piece. It could have been terrifying! Crowley touring the halls of screaming victims, body parts used as chandeliers, a pit of freshly turned demons fighting each other, anything!

Why did you turn Cas into such a sad sack? Just because you don't want him saving the day all the time doesn't mean you have to make him suck at everything. Why not scale back his power level but make him learn how to be resourceful and clever? That's where his human story arc SHOULD have went, it was the perfect opportunity. Not just "Cas learns how to hold down a job and gets laid, hurr durr". To make things worse, you FINALLY create the beginnings of a compelling story arc where Cas takes the side of protecting the baby, possibly pitting him against the Winchesters and giving him an interesting purpose again, and then... kill him off? Dafuq?

You writers act like the characters failed you, but the truth is you failed the characters.

[flyinghigh]

4 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Hi, this is the bitterness thread? Good. I have some bitterness to expel. Because I've slept on it, and digested last night's season finale.

What utter bullshit. God I fucking hate these writers so damn much. They are just so immature. They think that killing people to shock us is good writing. It's not, it's shit writing.

They have almost zero imagination when it comes to giving the characters interesting stories. You really can't give Crowley anything other than ANOTHER cat & mouse back-and-forth with Lucifer? Or to send Cas back to heaven AGAIN?? The fans could think of tons of better unique stories for these guys!

How could you make demons look so scary in the early seasons, and yet make Hell... MFing HELL, look so damn boring with prim & proper suit & tie guys standing around holding their hands in front of them? You could have done so much more with that set piece. It could have been terrifying! Crowley touring the halls of screaming victims, body parts used as chandeliers, a pit of freshly turned demons fighting each other, anything!

Why did you turn Cas into such a sad sack? Just because you don't want him saving the day all the time doesn't mean you have to make him suck at everything. Why not scale back his power level but make him learn how to be resourceful and clever? That's where his human story arc SHOULD have went, it was the perfect opportunity. Not just "Cas learns how to hold down a job and gets laid, hurr durr". To make things worse, you FINALLY create the beginnings of a compelling story arc where Cas takes the side of protecting the baby, possibly pitting him against the Winchesters and giving him an interesting purpose again, and then... kill him off? Dafuq?

You writers act like the characters failed you, but the truth is you failed the characters.

Well said.  

Both Cas and Crowley had become such pathetic characters, I think show did them a favour by killing them off, if at all it is permanent. 

[DeeDee79]

23 hours ago, flyinghigh said:

Both Cas and Crowley had become such pathetic characters, I think show did them a favour by killing them off, if at all it is permanent. 

This is how I feel about it also. I've always enjoyed both characters but it seems like the writers ran out of interesting stories for them.

23 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Hi, this is the bitterness thread? Good. I have some bitterness to expel. Because I've slept on it, and digested last night's season finale.

What utter bullshit. God I fucking hate these writers so damn much. They are just so immature. They think that killing people to shock us is good writing. It's not, it's shit writing.

They have almost zero imagination when it comes to giving the characters interesting stories. You really can't give Crowley anything other than ANOTHER cat & mouse back-and-forth with Lucifer? Or to send Cas back to heaven AGAIN?? The fans could think of tons of better unique stories for these guys!

How could you make demons look so scary in the early seasons, and yet make Hell... MFing HELL, look so damn boring with prim & proper suit & tie guys standing around holding their hands in front of them? You could have done so much more with that set piece. It could have been terrifying! Crowley touring the halls of screaming victims, body parts used as chandeliers, a pit of freshly turned demons fighting each other, anything!

Why did you turn Cas into such a sad sack? Just because you don't want him saving the day all the time doesn't mean you have to make him suck at everything. Why not scale back his power level but make him learn how to be resourceful and clever? That's where his human story arc SHOULD have went, it was the perfect opportunity. Not just "Cas learns how to hold down a job and gets laid, hurr durr". To make things worse, you FINALLY create the beginnings of a compelling story arc where Cas takes the side of protecting the baby, possibly pitting him against the Winchesters and giving him an interesting purpose again, and then... kill him off? Dafuq?

You writers act like the characters failed you, but the truth is you failed the characters.

This so much. Crowley and Cas were awesome in the earlier seasons after they were introduced. Somewhere around season 8-9ish they lost that and started to become bland.

[sarthaz]

On 5/20/2017 at 9:20 AM, DeeDee79 said:

This is how I feel about it also. I've always enjoyed both characters but it seems like the writers ran out of interesting stories for them.

This so much. Crowley and Cas were awesome in the earlier seasons after they were introduced. Somewhere around season 8-9ish they lost that and started to become bland.

I'm going to this your this.

[Idahoforspn]

On 5/19/2017 at 11:05 AM, ZennyKenny said:

 

You writers act like the characters failed you, but the truth is you failed the characters.

I don't think its limited to Cas and Crowley. Particularly this season, the writing hasn't been great for any of the character. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Pondlass1]

On 5/19/2017 at 1:05 PM, ZennyKenny said:

God I fucking hate these writers so damn much. They are just so immature. They think that killing people to shock us is good writing. It's not, it's shit writing.

Remember when Supernatural was great?  When scenes were thick with atmosphere and tension?  I want those days back. It's all so lame now.

** Oops.  Tried to insert this YouTube video.  Didn't work.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Idahoforspn]

59 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Remember when Supernatural was great?  When scenes were thick with atmosphere and tension?  I want those days back. It's all so lame now.

** Oops.  Tried to insert this YouTube video.  Didn't work.

That was an amazing episode. Your right. We don't get anywhere close to this quality anymore.

[Myrelle]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:05 PM, ZennyKenny said:

Hi, this is the bitterness thread? Good. I have some bitterness to expel. Because I've slept on it, and digested last night's season finale.

What utter bullshit. God I fucking hate these writers so damn much. They are just so immature. They think that killing people to shock us is good writing. It's not, it's shit writing.

I couldn't agree more with the bolded part, but not just because of the mass shock-killings in the finale. I haven't even wanted to post anywhere since the finale aired because I am so beyond frustrated with the awful writing. I just don't have the words for how awful I felt this season was, writing-wise; and the last two episodes were no exceptions. My blood is still boiling too much to even talk about them or discuss them without my blood pressure spiking, but I will say that many of my gripes have been posted to this site already and I'm grateful to see that I wasn't the only one who felt the way that I felt about quite a few things. I've been trying to come up with a post for the episode thread, but nothing yet-or nothing that hasn't simply devolved into something akin to your bolded statement above-just worse. I AM really glad that I don't personally know or have to interact with the writers of this show(especially Dabb and Singer) on any level or for any purpose or reason, though, because I don't think that we'd get along very well at all.

[CluelessDrifter]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I totally disagree that Cas had a good send off if this is his true death. Yes we got a lot of great Dean/Cas bonding and love declarations to all the  Winchesters several episodes ago in a fake out near death but even that death Cas wasn't even able to put up a good fight against Ramiel who could just smite him with his hand but instead used the Michael sword to cause him great suffering before he died.

Then Cas'  final act with the Winchesters was to steal the Colt right out from under their noses, boop them into unconsciousness and take off with Kelly and the Nepheilim. Yes they did  catch up with him and Dean says we'll get through the crap like they always do. That's not sufficient for this viewer.

But even that moment is undercut because suddenly Cas, who wasn't supposed to go  back through the portal a 3rd time,  does something stupid which is try to kill Lucifer with his regular angel blade which Cas knows cannot kill an archangel. And then apparently doesn't bother to make sure Lucifer is really most sincerely dead in the AU. Cas is a better soldier than that. That is a rookie mistake he would not make.And for this viewer, that would be a wholly terrible and dramatically unsatisfactory death of a mostly beloved character. Therefore I call ALL the shenanigans and there is much more to this than meets the eye.

I don't know when we will see Real Cas again but I fully think we will and he will be back on TFW.

I know this is an unpopular opinion, and let me start by saying that I love Misha Collins and used to love Cas until probably around the back half of season 9 or start of season 10, but I'm hoping that Cas is dead and stays dead for a while.  For me, his story lines have been dreadfully dull for years now.  If his story lines are supposed to be filling out the time the Winchesters aren't on screen, and we're getting less and less time with the Winchesters on screen, then Cas's story lines should be good, and they aren't, because the writers have hit a wall on him (and angels in general).  So, do I want to see an AU!Cas for a while who is dark, but not evil; who maybe wears a leather jacket instead of a trench coat while he's figuring out how to interact with the Winchesters; who maybe takes darker paths and is less 'good' in his intentions than our Cas on a lot of things, but especially Jack; and who is learning how to survive in the show's universe instead of a war-torn universe?  Yeah, I think that'd be more interesting than watching Cas drive around with Hannah, so he can learn a lesson that leads him to Claire, or mope around about his place in the universe until he agrees to play host to Lucifer, or mope around about how he's so ineffectual until he dies and gets brought back again but just a little transformed from his ordeal.

For me, Cas got his final goodbye in 12.12.  It was sentimentally a great goodbye.  He got to say the important things he needed to say, and he got to hear the important things he needed to hear, and maybe his betrayal with the Colt and knocking Sam and Dean out at the sandbox were bad notes for him to end on, but I think he thought he'd have time to make it up to them.  It's like Dean said, they could sort all that other stuff out later, but just like in real life, sometimes we don't always get that later.   Where I think his character wasn't given a good send off is that none of us are sure if he's permanently dead, which I'm guessing will have us all tuning in next season, but it is a disservice to our Cas if he is . . . and Crowley, really, because we know he's dead, and it was overshadowed by what happened to Cas.  If you don't think Cas is going to stay dead, you can focus more on the death of Crowley, but if you're unsure, then you forget about Crowley and focus on Cas.  It's not really fair to either character, IMO, and don't even get me started on Rowena.

[Idahoforspn]

28 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 For me, his story lines have been dreadfully dull for years now.  If his story lines are supposed to be filling out the time the Winchesters aren't on screen, and we're getting less and less time with the Winchesters on screen, then Cas's story lines should be good, and they aren't  

I couldn't agree more. The Cas of the last few seasons is totally unrecognizable as the warrior angel who walked into that barn. 

Quote

Where I think his character wasn't given a good send off is that none of us are sure if he's permanently dead, which I'm guessing will have us all tuning in next season, but it is a disservice to our Cas if he is . . . and Crowley, really, because we know he's dead, and it was overshadowed by what happened to Cas.  If you don't think Cas is going to stay dead, you can focus more on the death of Crowley, but if you're unsure, then you forget about Crowley and focus on Cas.  It's not really fair to either character, IMO, and don't even get me started on Rowena.

Well said. This is one of the reasons I am so upset with the finale.

[companionenvy]

On the Cas front, it will be narratively inexcusable if he is gone without, apparently, having achieved anything of substance. As others have noted, the show has made him almost comically inept for the last few seasons. That might be justifiable (if clumsily executed) if the payoff were "Cas gets a big win," even if that win meant his death. But if that isn't the case, then the fact that, as of this season, Cas with most of his angel powers couldn't even complete a routine hunt successfully is not only mind-numbingly stupid, but insulting. 

I also agree that Rowena deserved an onscreen death, but I don't have a problem if this is it for Crowley. For me, the problem for Crowley for years has been that he never became sufficiently gray to justify the amount of time they spent on him. He is great as a snarky, reluctant ally of the Winchesters when their mutual goals demand it, but I really don't care about his mommy issues, his crises of confidence, and his ambition, because he was and remained an unambiguously bad guy. Occasionally, the show would suggest a certain amount more depth, but then they'd go back to him doing things like training child Amara by having her watch Hitler tapes. In any case, villains tend not to get loving tribute episodes, so I think Crowley going out as part of a final attempt on Lucifer after realizing that he actually hated being king of hell was a fitting end for him -- although I would have liked it better if his final plan succeeded. 

[Bessie]

16 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Cas with most of his angel powers couldn't even complete a routine hunt successfully is not only mind-numbingly stupid, but insulting. 

I disagree with you here because I think that undervalues what Sam and Dean do as hunters. Cas isn't a hunter, so for me, it's not insulting that he doesn't have their skills. Or Mary's, for that matter. 

ETA: Although I do think he gave up way too easily on that hunt, but I don't find a lack of persistence to be inconsistent with his characterization. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bessie

[Idahoforspn]

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

On the Cas front, it will be narratively inexcusable if he is gone without, apparently, having achieved anything of substance. As others have noted, the show has made him almost comically inept for the last few seasons. That might be justifiable (if clumsily executed) if the payoff were "Cas gets a big win," even if that win meant his death. But if that isn't the case, then the fact that, as of this season, Cas with most of his angel powers couldn't even complete a routine hunt successfully is not only mind-numbingly stupid, but insulting. 

I also agree that Rowena deserved an onscreen death, but I don't have a problem if this is it for Crowley. For me, the problem for Crowley for years has been that he never became sufficiently gray to justify the amount of time they spent on him. He is great as a snarky, reluctant ally of the Winchesters when their mutual goals demand it, but I really don't care about his mommy issues, his crises of confidence, and his ambition, because he was and remained an unambiguously bad guy. Occasionally, the show would suggest a certain amount more depth, but then they'd go back to him doing things like training child Amara by having her watch Hitler tapes. In any case, villains tend not to get loving tribute episodes, so I think Crowley going out as part of a final attempt on Lucifer after realizing that he actually hated being king of hell was a fitting end for him -- although I would have liked it better if his final plan succeeded. 

I have to agree on the writing for Crowley. I hated the mommy issues and thought most of the Luci Crowley dialogue was ridiculously boring. However, I still have a soft spot for him because of original Crowley.

[companionenvy]

21 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I disagree with you here because I think that undervalues what Sam and Dean do as hunters. Cas isn't a hunter, so for me, it's not insulting that he doesn't have their skills. Or Mary's, for that matter. 

ETA: Although I do think he gave up way too easily on that hunt, but I don't find a lack of persistence to be inconsistent with his characterization. 

Fair enough on the ETA, but I still think that angelic abilities should be enough of an asset that Cas should be able to compensate for lack of other skills. In either case, it is all part of a big picture. Cas being inept in certain aspects of human behavior was a funny beat when he was also getting to be an awesome angel of the Lord on other occasions. But if he is screwing up on every level, the "Cas doesn't get people" shtick becomes sad rather than amusing. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Remember when Supernatural was great?  When scenes were thick with atmosphere and tension?  I want those days back. It's all so lame now.

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

That was an amazing episode. Your right. We don't get anywhere close to this quality anymore.

My unpopular opinion is that I really disliked that episode.* I would go into detail as to why, but I'm pretty sure that I've covered my many reasons previously either here somewhere, in the episode thread, or both. I wouldn't want those particular days (season 4) back, myself, especially in retrospect.

I actually prefer some of the newer seasons to season 4, including some of the writing. For example, I thought some of the writing in season 10 and 11 especially was great, so to each his/her own. *shrug*

* I won't say hate, since I reserve that for episodes like "Citizen Fang" and "Torn and Frayed," but it's close.

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

My unpopular opinion is that I really disliked that episode.* I would go into detail as to why, but I'm pretty sure that I've covered my many reasons previously either here somewhere, in the episode thread, or both. I wouldn't want those particular days (season 4) back, myself, especially in retrospect.

I actually prefer some of the newer seasons to season 4, including some of the writing. For example, I thought some of the writing in season 10 and 11 especially was great, so to each his/her own. *shrug*

* I won't say hate, since I reserve that for episodes like "Citizen Fang" and "Torn and Frayed," but it's close.

We all love or hate different episodes. I have mentioned some in the past that I really disliked most of what happened on screen and  then find out it is someone else's favorite episode. I don't think any of us need to justify what we like or don't like. Fun to discuss reasons sometimes though.

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Fun to discuss reasons sometimes though.

Oh for sure. For me, it would be boring if we all liked the same thing.

That particular episode seems to be a divisive one though, and it's one that pushes my buttons. I tried to reign myself in, and apologize if I wasn't entirely successful.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh for sure. For me, it would be boring if we all liked the same thing.

That particular episode seems to be a divisive one though, and it's one that pushes my buttons. I tried to reign myself in, and apologize if I wasn't entirely successful.

You didn't say anything you need to apologize for! Actually, a HUGE reason I like the episode is Jensen's acting. I detested some of the dialogue....probably the same parts you did.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh for sure. For me, it would be boring if we all liked the same thing.

That particular episode seems to be a divisive one though, and it's one that pushes my buttons. I tried to reign myself in, and apologize if I wasn't entirely successful.

I'm with you; I hated that episode.

[Katy M]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm with you; I hated that episode.

I had to look back to see which epi were discussing, so I'm going to post that it's On th eHead of a Pin, to save others the trouble in case they were wondering.  I liked the fact that the episode answered a lot of questions, i.e. where Sam's powers were coming from (this was the episode where I stopped thinking Ruby was actually a good demon), Dean breaking the first seal, Uriel killing the angels an trying to rally other angels to Lucifer's side.  But, the torture and Dean's brokenness at the end was really hard to watch.

[catrox14]

On the Head of a Pin is in my Top 5 episodes of all time. It's such an incredibly nuanced performance by Jensen that it makes up for IMO a bit of lack of plotting but in general, just every award for that episode in general. 

I think my UO is that I think Samifer in THE END is the best Lucifer that has ever existed. I think he was better than Pellegrino who was good in s5. I loved Misha's Lucifer especially in The Vessel which is where I think he found his legs with Lucifer.

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I'm with you; I hated that episode.

Table for three? Well, hate is a strong word. How about I just don't care for it. I am of the opinion they didn't really understand the script that Edlund wrote and so it comes off as wrong to me. Plus--BLASPHEMY ALERT--I think it's one of Jensen's weaker performances. But, I put a lot of the failures of this episode on the directing, more than anything.

Edited May 22, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Table for three?

Four!

[rue721]

5 plz

[ILoveReading]

On the Head of the Pin was one of my favorite episodes.   I think it was also a fantastic performance by Jensen.  My heart just broke for Dean when Alistair told him about the seal.  Watching Dean, I can pinpoint the exact moment he just breaks.  

I also liked Citizen Fang too. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

On the Head of the Pin was one of my favorite episodes.   I think it was also a fantastic performance by Jensen.  My heart just broke for Dean when Alistair told him about the seal.  Watching Dean, I can pinpoint the exact moment he just breaks.  

I also liked Citizen Fang too. 

Benny! *sob*

I don't know how unpopular an opinion it is, but I would trade Bobby, Mary, and anyone else they might find in Doom!Land to have Benny (the real Benny) back.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Benny! *sob*

I don't know how unpopular an opinion it is, but I would trade Bobby, Mary, and anyone else they might find in Doom!Land to have Benny (the real Benny) back.

I love Benny but with this current crop of writers, I'd rather he stayed gone.  I wouldn't trust them not to destroy the character.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Benny! *sob*

I don't know how unpopular an opinion it is, but I would trade Bobby, Mary, and anyone else they might find in Doom!Land to have Benny (the real Benny) back.

I'd trade for Mary and the rest of Doomland possibly except  Bobby. I actually liked Bobby. But Benny is THE character that supported Dean.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I'd trade for Mary and the rest of Doomland possibly except  Bobby. I actually liked Bobby. But Benny is THE character that supported Dean.

I really liked Benny and his genuine friendship with Dean but I agree with @ILoveReading that the current crop of writers would probably find a way to ruin their friendship.

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Table for three? Well, hate is a strong word. How about I just don't care for it.

Not strong enough for me! I detested Alastair and Uriel was probably my least favorite angel next to Zachariah. Add in how broken Dean was at the end and it ends up as the episode that I skip over every time it airs on rerun.