S01.E04: F...This

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Plum participates in the next step of The New Baptist Plan, doing whatever it takes to become truly beautiful; Jennifer's terrorism goes global.

[SimoneS]

Oh, Plum. Her heart is going to be crushed. I hope that Kitty is on Jennifer's list. She is so freaking ridiculous although a very real character.

[formerlyfreedom]

I love Campbell Scott so much. "I don't want to fight Kitty, I just had a hot stone massage" with that little wave of his hand.

[mjc570]

I just really like this show.  I know I shouldn't admit this, but I just love Kitty, and her fierce determination.  The way she took down that CFO was  a riot.  Not a fan of Plum's makeover, except for that fabulous lipstick.  I wouldn't mind a little Jennifer in real life, without the violence, of course.  But imagine a world where women make a third more than men!  Where only women could run for President for the next 50 years. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I understand Plum's mom's concerns about Verena's plan, the way she reacts is not helpful. I have no interest in getting botox, but as Plum pointed out, plenty of women get it done every single day and what her mom was freaking out about was temporary bruising. People do all kinds of crazy/uncomfortable things to themselves (as we saw in this episode) and it's all relative. On one end of the spectrum, there are less invasive/painful things like makeup or coloring your hair. On the other end there are things like plastic surgery, wearing corsets, foot binding, etc. Hell, we put holes in our ears so we can wear earrings and it's no big deal to do that to children because it's pretty adornment.

I loved the contrast between the man on the street who said he was becoming scared and the exhilarated woman who said she went running at midnight for the first time.

Kitty shutting down that patronizing asshole Jeff was everything. I laughed so hard when she added, "I know - HONEY."

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

And how would that make anything better?  It should be about equal treatment for everyone.

I totally agree.  My first thought with the "only women presidents for the next 50 years,"  was yeah, no. If we start making restitution laws, we'll have to have only African American presidents for the next 200 years, plus, to compensate for all the years with no pay at all, we would have to pay them for doing nothing for about a hundred years.   There's just too much to atone for in so many directions -- Native Americans, OMG. 

I think equality is and always will be our first and best goal.

2 minutes ago, 17wheatthins said:

Oh this episode made me cry for Plum when she realized her body would still be “imperfect” even after having weight loss surgery because of all the scarring. I love Plum and am excited to see where her journey through self-love and self-forgiveness brings her. 

Me, too. I've recently lost 42 pounds and hate all the new sags and wrinkles, my face has aged terribly and I know I was "prettier," before the loss. 

I agree with a lot of what Plum's mother says although I know she should just shut up.    "Thin" and "pretty" have never been the same thing to me.   For example, I think the actress playing Plum is very pretty, while I have always found "Kitty," rather homely with the heavy brows and huge face.  (Sorry -- counting on her not reading this.)

[Tetraneutron]

I'm pretty sure Juliana Margulies doesn't read an obscure TV message board. :)

You know what's cool about this show? Plum's mother loves her and supports her. When have we EVER seen that on TV or books or movies? Usually the fat woman will have a thin mother who's horrible and abusive to her. Or else a fat mother who had terrible eating habits and some sort of mental illness. But usually the first one. I don'tthink I've ever seen the show where the fat woman who has a thin mother who believes her daughter is fine. (The mother is played bt Debra Monk, who played one of the ultimate "evil mothers who give their daughters eating disorders" on Center Stage). 

[SunnyBeBe]

Can someone explain to me what the woman with the New Baptist plan is trying to do?  Why is she insisting on Plum do all those things, like botox, waxing, etc.?  And why is Plum doing it, if she is so opposed to it?  I'm confused.  I suppose they are trying to prove a point, but, if they aren't really into those things and Plum isn't either, then what's the point of going through it? 

[Madding crowd]

I think she is trying to show Plum that doing invasive things to your body will not change who you are inside. The problem is none of these women are Plum’s size so they can’t really relate.

I am enjoying the show more than the book, probably because of the actors. I like that Kitty is starting to get things-her takedown of the CFO was great. 

[Princess Sparkle]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

And how would that make anything better?  It should be about equal treatment for everyone.

The one aspect of this series that really needs to be shown is how some men aren't the only ones that treat overweight women and other women in general horribly,  Women can be just as vicious, sometimes more so towards each other.

 

 

Without getting too far into a rabbit hole, I think what Jennifer is trying to show with their manifesto is that it's not necessarily about equality, it's about equity. This poster used to hang in my grade school as a kid, and it's stuck in my head to this day.

 

And I think they have done a fairly good job so far showing that women can be pretty nasty to each other - just look at how Kitty treats Plum with disdain. And while Plum now surrounds herself with women who are trying to lift her up, from the few friends she had at the beginning, they were all male and non-threatening, and I think that's intentional.

One small moment I really enjoyed in this episode was that when Plum was getting waxed, she was absolutely certain that the aestheticians were talking about her and her size, when really they were just chatting about their relationships. That is something a lot of people (of any size) do frequently - decide on a narrative, and make everything possible they see fit that, even if it's not the case. Plum is so used to people being shitty to her that she assumes everyone is.

It also took me until this episode to realize the woman playing Plum's mom is from the movie Center Stage. And I see Marti Noxon is doing Marc Blucas a solid and still getting him work after Buffy.

[Ottis]

Like Westworld, this show seems to insist that most everyone (humans in Westworld, and men in Dietiand) are either actively creating or passively supporting an immoral and unfair system whose weight is borne disproportionately by a specific subgroup. Leaving aside the gross assumption of how many people do this, in Dietland it also removes the power of the individual to reject that system and refuse to play by its rules. Sure it’s hard, but people do it all the time. Is it fair? Of course not. Almost nothing is fair. And some of the greatest stories in our culture were written by people who refused to play by the system. We all face challenges, many “unfair.” And we all can rise to them, submit to them or, like this show is starting to feel like, whine and point fingers. I’m trying hard in my limited way to stay with it, but it’s getting more difficult. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Ottis

[voiceover]

It finally occurred to me, why the undercurrent on this series (and the blatantly-expressed current on the Aisha Tyler afterwords show) was deja vu-ish.   

I read The Women's Room as an undergrad, and it had the same "All men are the enemy!" vibe.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The assistant who the CFO screwed was named Jenny so I’m not sure if she’s just one of the many women in the worls named Jennifer or if she’s part of Jennifer the organization. Either way, I liked that small detail. 

[Tetraneutron]

2 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The assistant who the CFO screwed was named Jenny so I’m not sure if she’s just one of the many women in the worls named Jennifer or if she’s part of Jennifer the organization. Either way, I liked that small detail. 

I don’t think it means she’s part of Jennifer. The point (and the show mentions this) is that Jennifer is a very common name. The vast majority (all?) of The Jennifers in the world have nothing to do with the terrorist group. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

But that’s why I liked it. Jenny the assistant is just another 20 something girl who got screwed by someone way over her head on the org chart and that’s one of the many things that Jennifer the organization represents: all those women who got screwed by someone (both literally and figuratively).

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Like Westworld, this show seems to insist that most everyone (humans in Westworld, and men in Dietiand) are either actively creating or passively supporting an immoral and unfair system whose weight is borne disproportionately by a specific subgroup. Leaving aside the gross assumption of how many people do this, in Dietland it also removes the power of the individual to reject that system and refuse to play by its rules. Sure it’s hard, but people do it all the time. Is it fair? Of course not. Almost nothing is fair. And some of the greatest stories in our culture were written by people who refused to play by the system. We all face challenges, many “unfair.” And we all can rise to them, submit to them or, like this show is starting to feel like, whine and point fingers. I’m trying hard in my limited way to stay with it, but it’s getting more difficult. 

You make good points, Ottis.  We all definitely  do make decisions about when we choose to submit to the system and when we don't.  I just watched the after show   and it brought up two things in the news right now:  The Miss America Pageant deciding to drop the swimsuit portion, and the Southern Baptist Church scandal about a leader ignoring rape cases.  I can't sympathize much with women who volunteer to submit themselves to the arbitrary judgement of any beauty pageant, with or without swimsuit segments, or women who choose to worship at the Southern Baptist Church with it's history of anti-integration when they could have gone down the street to the Methodist church where the ministers have such a proud history of participation in the civil rights movement.  So I agree, the show makes lots of sweeping judgments, sometimes by people who are part of the problem, like Kitty.

On the other hand, I think maybe it's good that Plum is playing by the system right now, because  the viewer can learn along with her that she does have this power to change.  I think she's, as we used to say, getting her consciousness raised and the whining and anger are part of that awakening, but eventually she'll need to take responsibility for her own part in some of the very things she's angry about.

[BooBear]

9 hours ago, 17wheatthins said:

Oh this episode made me cry for Plum when she realized her body would still be “imperfect” even after having weight loss surgery because of all the scarring. I love Plum and am excited to see where her journey through self-love and self-forgiveness brings her. 

Yeh I lost weight a few years ago. Plumb thinks she gets hassled on the streets NOW? Wait just wait.   I thought clothing would fit.. still didn't just at a smaller size.  The new baptist people should have her talk to people who had the surgery (or just have her watch my 600lbs life) -- having thin people tell her these things realistically wouldn't do it. 

I also enjoyed her thinking the hair removal ladies were talking about her but they weren't. Still rude not to speak in english and leave her wondering.

5 hours ago, Princess Sparkle said:

And I think they have done a fairly good job so far showing that women can be pretty nasty to each other - just look at how Kitty treats Plum with disdain. And while Plum now surrounds herself with women who are trying to lift her up, from the few friends she had at the beginning, they were all male and non-threatening, and I think that's intentional.

I think this show would be really insightful if it made the point that men aren't to blame for daisy chain... it is women. Women who see an opportunity to advance themselves with what comes natural to them or that they like.  They know it is at the cost of women like Plumb and they don't care. Kitty clearly seems like that kind of person.  They make these false differences among women in order to protect and advanced themselves. IMHO just like the fashion industry. You could make the argument that men, if they do, prefer thin women because they are mystognistic, but rather it is the messages that they get from *women centric* media.  Maybe that is why Kitty is freaking out so much about Jennifer.

Marlo was super annoying.

Marc Blucas is Marti's favorite.

As to Jennifer.. in real life.. probably would not support it but I am a BIG fan of vigilante justice (Dexter) on tv so I like to see rapists get their due. Last nights kind of soured it for me because some of the people Jennifer was going after didn't seem that bad. Like the tabloid guy. Perhaps raising the issue of why you can't allow vigilante  justice at all because it invariably starts taking out less and less truly deserving people.

Plumb's mom isn't really being supportive. She is infantilizing her daughter. Her daughter is a grown woman who lives in a major city. She can handle herself. Unsure yet if mom's attitude is because of Plumb's weight. 

I don't think it is wrong for Plumb to be attracted to a thinner man. I think just due to testosterone large guys are more of a minority than women.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Plumb's mom isn't really being supportive. She is infantilizing her daughter. Her daughter is a grown woman who lives in a major city. She can handle herself. Unsure yet if mom's attitude is because of Plumb's weight. 

I'll say if I heard my adult child had suddenly gotten involved in an organization that was run by the daughter of the founder of another bad organization she had been involved in, I would be concerned.  I didn't really buy that Plumb's mom would go from thinking her daughter was in a diabolical cult to basically signing up Plumb for more sessions in the course of one meeting with Verina. 

Quote

Kitty shutting down that patronizing asshole Jeff was everything. I laughed so hard when she added, "I know - HONEY."

 

She seems like she is having a lot of fun with this role.  I was kind of over her by the end of the Good Wife, but I'm enjoying her again.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

19 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I do find it interesting that she doesn't appear to be interested in dating someone who is her size.

I don't think she's interested in dating ANYONE right now, regardless of their size. She seemed panicked when Marlowe said that the next part of Verena's plan was for Plum to go on some dates.

But even so, why should Plum limit herself to dating someone who is her size? She's attracted to whoever she's attracted to. Besides, we see ugly men dating beautiful women all the time. No one says they should only be interested in dating people who are as unattractive as they are.

On top of that, I don't think that Plum is attracted to Dominic because he isn't fat. I think the only reason she's interested in him at all is because he has paid attention to her. As far as we've seen, he's the only person who has expressed any interest in her in any way. At the point in her life when she met him, she rarely interacted with anyone for more than a few seconds besides Kitty, Steven, and her mother (since then, she has spent some time with Verena, Marlowe, Julia, and Leeta, but even those interactions are somewhat reluctant on Plum's part). If he hadn't been grooming her to be an informant by paying attention to her, I don't think that she would have given him a second thought. He would have just been some guy in the waiting room. It's not like she saw him and was immediately interested in pursuing him.

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

She seems like she is having a lot of fun with this role.  I was kind of over her by the end of the Good Wife, but I'm enjoying her again.  

ITA with all of that. I was getting tired of humorless/blank faced Alicia, but she definitely seems like she's having a lot more fun as Kitty.

[SunnyBeBe]

14 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

You make good points, Ottis.  We all definitely  do make decisions about when we choose to submit to the system and when we don't.  I just watched the after show   and it brought up two things in the news right now:  The Miss America Pageant deciding to drop the swimsuit portion, and the Southern Baptist Church scandal about a leader ignoring rape cases.  I can't sympathize much with women who volunteer to submit themselves to the arbitrary judgement of any beauty pageant, with or without swimsuit segments, or women who choose to worship at the Southern Baptist Church with it's history of anti-integration when they could have gone down the street to the Methodist church where the ministers have such a proud history of participation in the civil rights movement.  So I agree, the show makes lots of sweeping judgments, sometimes by people who are part of the problem, like Kitty.

On the other hand, I think maybe it's good that Plum is playing by the system right now, because  the viewer can learn along with her that she does have this power to change.  I think she's, as we used to say, getting her consciousness raised and the whining and anger are part of that awakening, but eventually she'll need to take responsibility for her own part in some of the very things she's angry about.

Ref. the boldface above: Can you elaborate on how Plum is getting her consciousness raised and what is she learning to change?  I have trouble with what they are trying to say with the Baptist and those exercises for Plum.

Also, why do you think that Plum is whining and angry? Is she unhappy with herself or the way she perceives she is treated by others?  She seems to be angry or resentful of so many people, everyone except for the the quirky girl who comes down to meet her on the sidewalk. 

[Wings]

23 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone explain to me what the woman with the New Baptist plan is trying to do?  Why is she insisting on Plum do all those things, like botox, waxing, etc.?  And why is Plum doing it, if she is so opposed to it?  I'm confused.  I suppose they are trying to prove a point, but, if they aren't really into those things and Plum isn't either, then what's the point of going through it? 

I wonder, too.  I am not convinced she has Plumb's happiness in mind.  She is up to something. 

 

45 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

15 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

You make good points, Ottis.  We all definitely  do make decisions about when we choose to submit to the system and when we don't.  I just watched the after show   and it brought up two things in the news right now:  The Miss America Pageant deciding to drop the swimsuit portion, and the Southern Baptist Church scandal about a leader ignoring rape cases.  I can't sympathize much with women who volunteer to submit themselves to the arbitrary judgement of any beauty pageant, with or without swimsuit segments, or women who choose to worship at the Southern Baptist Church with it's history of anti-integration when they could have gone down the street to the Methodist church where the ministers have such a proud history of participation in the civil rights movement.  So I agree, the show makes lots of sweeping judgments, sometimes by people who are part of the problem, like Kitty.

On the other hand, I think maybe it's good that Plum is playing by the system right now, because  the viewer can learn along with her that she does have this power to change.  I think she's, as we used to say, getting her consciousness raised and the whining and anger are part of that awakening, but eventually she'll need to take responsibility for her own part in some of the very things she's angry about.

Ref. the boldface above: Can you elaborate on how Plum is getting her consciousness raised and what is she learning to change?  I have trouble with what they are trying to say with the Baptist and those exercises for Plum.

 I think we will see her change, down the line, having gone through all of that. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Wings

[Madding crowd]

9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But even so, why should Plum limit herself to dating someone who is her size? She's attracted to whoever she's attracted to. Besides, we see ugly men dating beautiful women all the time. No one says they should only be interested in dating people who are as unattractive as they are.

Yes, this is part of Plum's issue and the issue of fat women everywhere. No one else is told they are limited to dating a certain type of person, why should Plum (or anyone else) have those limitations? No one tells a person with acne they may only date others with acne. I don't recall Plum saying she wouldn't date a fat man-but like everyone, she is looking for someone she really cares about and has characteristics she values beyond size. Her attraction to Dominic is because he is paying attention to her and acting like he cares about her, we all respond to that to one degree or another. 

In terms of where she is being held back: a perfect example is Kitty asking her to write a story about a plus sized fashion show and then insisting someone else actually go to the show while Plum writes it at home so she will not be seen. There is certainly a lot more to the story than Plum's consciousness being raised, but it does bring up these issues in an interesting way. When I read the book I did not like all of the violence, but did like the message it is sending about the way people of size are treated. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by Madding crowd
Typo

[Ottis]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Also, why do you think that Plum is whining and angry? Is she unhappy with herself or the way she perceives she is treated by others?  She seems to be angry or resentful of so many people, everyone except for the the quirky girl who comes down to meet her on the sidewalk. 

I was the one who, in my post, noted all the whining and finger pointing, so I'll respond to my thought at least. I wasn't talking only about Plum, I meant more the entire dynamic of the show, including Marlo and "Jennifer." There is a lot of blaming of men, and a society whose rules are laid at the feet of men, and less so, women who enable it. Instead of spending time blaming others, reject it. You can reject it without killing people.  And going straight to killing echoes the current environment around Me,Too/Time's Up and related claims where, as soon as a woman alleges something against a man, his career is over. That's death of a sort. There is no dialogue, no discussion, no investigation ... they're done. That makes me uneasy. Maybe I don't get it. I'm just saying that I would rather be who I want to be, and turn my back on body image and these aspects of society,  or launch my own counter efforts  supporting my perspective, than make other people pay for their opinions when it involves simply how people may view me. Of course it is totally different when it is physical abuse. 

[Token]

I really wish they had done something with Plum's hair, with all the makeover stuff they were doing.  That blunt bob, at the length she has, is just so ugly and matronly.  It's a bad style at a bad length, even worse with it all curled under at the end.  It drive me crazy every week so far!!

[Iguessnot]

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I don't think she's interested in dating ANYONE right now, regardless of their size. She seemed panicked when Marlowe said that the next part of Verena's plan was for Plum to go on some dates.

But even so, why should Plum limit herself to dating someone who is her size? She's attracted to whoever she's attracted to. Besides, we see ugly men dating beautiful women all the time. No one says they should only be interested in dating people who are as unattractive as they are.

On top of that, I don't think that Plum is attracted to Dominic because he isn't fat. I think the only reason she's interested in him at all is because he has paid attention to her. As far as we've seen, he's the only person who has expressed any interest in her in any way. At the point in her life when she met him, she rarely interacted with anyone for more than a few seconds besides Kitty, Steven, and her mother (since then, she has spent some time with Verena, Marlowe, Julia, and Leeta, but even those interactions are somewhat reluctant on Plum's part). If he hadn't been grooming her to be an informant by paying attention to her, I don't think that she would have given him a second thought. He would have just been some guy in the waiting room. It's not like she saw him and was immediately interested in pursuing him.

ITA with all of that. I was getting tired of humorless/blank faced Alicia, but she definitely seems like she's having a lot more fun as Kitty.

It seems that the young dude at the coffee/pastry shop pays plenty of attention to her but she doesn't see it. I have never read the book and I'm not really speculating but he talks to her, compliments her and invited her to his party but she takes no note of it. I don't want them together but she's as blind to him as she would accuse "attractive" men of being blind to her.

[BooBear]

5 minutes ago, Token said:

I really wish they had done something with Plum's hair, with all the makeover stuff they were doing.  That blunt bob, at the length she has, is just so ugly and matronly.  It's a bad style at a bad length, even worse with it all curled under at the end.  It drive me crazy every week so far!!

I thought she looks so much worse with the makeover. A major discrimination against fat women is the hair stylists. They always give a large person a cut that frames mops the face as if they are trying to hide the face, but it never ever looks good. That happens to me all the time. I actually told one once you can't put the hair directly over my face because then I can't see but she sure did try.

Quote

coffee/pastry shop pays plenty of attention to her but she doesn't see it.

I am not sure what is going on there but my take is that she thinks he is too young.

[Iguessnot]

24 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I thought she looks so much worse with the makeover. A major discrimination against fat women is the hair stylists. They always give a large person a cut that frames mops the face as if they are trying to hide the face, but it never ever looks good. That happens to me all the time. I actually told one once you can't put the hair directly over my face because then I can't see but she sure did try.

I am not sure what is going on there but my take is that she thinks he is too young.

Yeah, he's too young, but she needs to realize that even if she isn't happy with her body, she doesn't need to carry herself like Quasimodo. She's good looking, dresses well and is skillful. She may not be able to snag the man of her "dreams" but she needs to exude some self confidence.

[BooBear]

9 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

Yeah, he's too young, but she needs to realize that even if she isn't happy with her body, she doesn't need to carry herself like Quasimodo. She's good looking, dresses well and is skillful. She may not be able to snag the man of her "dreams" but she needs to exude some self confidence.

I don't have a problem with any of how she dresses right now. Interesting that this might be bringing out some of your own fashion brainwashing.  That fat people don't have self confidence. She has it. She struck up a conversation with Dominic (I would never do that) and got an article on Kitty's radar.  She just isn't interested in that kid. She is entitled. Frankly I think he is too young for her. Probably looks at her like a mom figure. 

Quote

here is a lot of blaming of men, and a society whose rules are laid at the feet of men, and less so, women who enable it. 

Yes. perhaps they are trying to show that with Kitty but they make her too sympathetic.  The entire fashion industry is mostly women and there is an argument that the men control but they only do what sells and what sells is what a certain class of women want. Guys are over there like "whatever".  Even Kitty is using her typical non feminist assets (including apparently sleeping to the top) while at the same time pretending she is a feminist to keep her in her position of power.  I dislike Kitty.   

[Iguessnot]

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

I don't have a problem with any of how she dresses right now. Interesting that this might be bringing out some of your own fashion brainwashing.  That fat people don't have self confidence. She has it. She struck up a conversation with Dominic (I would never do that) and got an article on Kitty's radar.  She just isn't interested in that kid. She is entitled. Frankly I think he is too young for her. Probably looks at her like a mom figure. 

Yes. perhaps they are trying to show that with Kitty but they make her too sympathetic.  The entire fashion industry is mostly women and there is an argument that the men control but they only do what sells and what sells is what a certain class of women want. Guys are over there like "whatever".  Even Kitty is using her typical non feminist assets (including apparently sleeping to the top) while at the same time pretending she is a feminist to keep her in her position of power.  I dislike Kitty.   

You must be joking. What kind of brainwashing are you talking about? I'm fat myself and I never had Plum's demeanor. Where did I say I had a problem with her clothes? Yeah she spoke to Dominic, but every single thing he says that could remotely refer to weight, she takes personally and it shows immediately on her face. For example when Dominic mentioned if he ate that cake everyday he'd be as big as a house, she gave that defeatist look. Why? A confident woman would have agreed and said, yeah, that's why I don't do cake anymore. Plum managed to get that article in Kitty's radar, but when she was blocked from Fashion Week, she just swallows it with that look again and not making any case for herself.   She doesn't have to be brash like the woman who walked out of the waist watchers meeting,

And again with the kid. No, she's not interested in him. However I still say she doesn't even see his overtures, even if he likes her as a friend. She hasn't even swatted him away as a pest.

[Former Nun]

Casting Question.    I know this isn't easy, but did anyone recognize the actress in the waxing studio scene?   Pretty.  Young.  She and her coworker spoke Russian.   I've seen her before but can't remember where.  Can you?

[pasdetrois]

I'm enjoying the show and the posters' intelligent viewpoints here. I was quite overweight for about five years in my 40s, and health scares motivated me to lose down to a healthier weight. It was sobering and depressing to me to experience life as a formerly fit woman who became obese, because it was so clear that everyone - family, some friends, the business world, healthcare practitioners, flight crews - treated me very differently. Add aging and being female to that, and the disdain, dismissal, anger, etc. really ramped up.

Psychologically I somehow punched through it - being older helped me maintain my confidence; I knew how to keep up a Teflon frame of mind against the way I was treated, but it was a challenge every day. When I saw a therapist about other issues, she tried to make it about my weight, pressing self-help books on me and trying to raise it in sessions.

I also have a parallel view to all of this. My neighbor is extremely obese. When we first met she tried to engage me in a friendship. I wanted to go out but she only wanted to meet for dinner in our homes; outside of work she is reclusive. When we did get together she projected a lot of her unhappiness onto me, sniping at me as I lost weight and exercised, and also constantly blaming the world for her obesity. I endured her attitude for about a decade, then pulled away. But experiencing that misery and attitude helped me keep from spiraling down into self-pity and anger about being overweight; it was a life lesson.

I hope Juliana lost weight solely as part of Kitty's fashionable character. Her gaunt appearance (and red wig) distracts me.

The all-women manifesto is appealing - I relate strongly to "I was able to go running at midnight."  I despise not feeling safe at night in my own environment, carrying a whistle and pepper spray when I exercise in the dark. And those of us who have been in the workforce for decades, experiencing the birth of the modern women's movement, we know that despite that movement and some progress many things never really changed. I routinely chat with my female colleagues about being resented and undermined by men non-stop in the workplace. I do see some enlightenment with the younger male generation, and I'm blessed with enlightened male family members, so there's hope. But women can be just as difficult and destructive, so I can't get behind the all-women mind set.

Despite everyone's differences of opinion on this forum, I think we are all glad to have this show try to represent this story.

[SunnyBeBe]

3 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I'm enjoying the show and the posters' intelligent viewpoints here. I was quite overweight for about five years in my 40s, and health scares motivated me to lose down to a healthier weight. It was sobering and depressing to me to experience life as a formerly fit woman who became obese, because it was so clear that everyone - family, some friends, the business world, healthcare practitioners, flight crews - treated me very differently. Add aging and being female to that, and the disdain, dismissal, anger, etc. really ramped up.

Psychologically I somehow punched through it - being older helped me maintain my confidence; I knew how to keep up a Teflon frame of mind against the way I was treated, but it was a challenge every day. When I saw a therapist about other issues, she tried to make it about my weight, pressing self-help books on me and trying to raise it in sessions.

I also have a parallel view to all of this. My neighbor is extremely obese. When we first met she tried to engage me in a friendship. I wanted to go out but she only wanted to meet for dinner in our homes; outside of work she is reclusive. When we did get together she projected a lot of her unhappiness onto me, sniping at me as I lost weight and exercised, and also constantly blaming the world for her obesity. I endured her attitude for about a decade, then pulled away. But experiencing that misery and attitude helped me keep from spiraling down into self-pity and anger about being overweight; it was a life lesson.

I hope Juliana lost weight solely as part of Kitty's fashionable character. Her gaunt appearance (and red wig) distracts me.

The all-women manifesto is appealing - I relate strongly to "I was able to go running at midnight."  I despise not feeling safe at night in my own environment, carrying a whistle and pepper spray when I exercise in the dark. And those of us who have been in the workforce for decades, experiencing the birth of the modern women's movement, we know that despite that movement and some progress many things never really changed. I routinely chat with my female colleagues about being resented and undermined by men non-stop in the workplace. I do see some enlightenment with the younger male generation, and I'm blessed with enlightened male family members, so there's hope. But women can be just as difficult and destructive, so I can't get behind the all-women mind set.

Despite everyone's differences of opinion on this forum, I think we are all glad to have this show try to represent this story.

I appreciate your description of weight loss and the reasons why.  I had a similar experience in losing over 50 pounds.  Most of my life, I have been average to thin in size, and never really got any of the angry/hateful reactions that Plum has suffered after I gained some weight, though, I was not as large as Plum.  Maybe, it's due to where we live.

But, my decision to change my eating plan, not really diet, was due to health concerns.  I wonder if we will see that with Plum.  She's very into APPEARANCE, but, how is her blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol?  Did her doctor check it out earlier when she when in?  Does she experience chub rub (irritation from fat rubbing)?  Does she have lymphedema?  Does she give out of breath walking around the city? Does she has sleep apnea?  Are we seeing a perfectly healthy young woman, whose only issue is being heavy and having the public ostracize her? 

Edited June 23, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Madding crowd]

Not all people Plum's size have the health problems you mention and honestly, chub rub is not so serious as to have people concerned. I personally used to be thin, now I'm not and don't have those types of medical issues ( I have many others but not weight related). The show and the book are really not about health. But I still don't agree that fat shaming is because people are so concerned about a stranger's health. I think fat shaming is mostly about the shamer's own insecurities. After all are people going up to strangers who are smoking or drinking  and say they are concerned about their health? No, because they really aren't.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm just curious as to what Plum's perspective is.  I haven't read the book, so, I don't know. I've never known a person who is more than 100 pounds overweight who doesn't have health issues, but, I suppose they exist and maybe, Plum is one and that has nothing to do with her weight loss goals. 

[Madding crowd]

People of all sizes have health issues, many thin people have high blood pressure, high cholesterol or diabetes. The show is not about weight loss.

[izabella]

I haven't been paying close attention to the animation intro, but just before this episode, I noticed that she starts off wearing black clothes and then at some point she's in a red dress.  Was that change to the red dress new for this episode, or has that always been there, does anyone know?

I started noticing that Plum seems to dress in all black, all the time.  It really stood out next to the bright dress the woman in the shop was wearing when she was measuring her for clothes. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by izabella

[2727]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

They often say all they are trying to do is "help motivate" people to lose weight. Bull crap. They just get off on making overweight people feel worthless.

I agree it's not genuine concern, especially when the "help" is directed at a stranger. Some people have a phobia about fat (cacomorphobia) but I mostly see a lot of "Ew, gross!" generalized disgust being expressed about all sorts of body parts: feet, hairy backs, yellow teeth, pot-bellies, pubic hair, piercings, saggy skin, etc. I can't blame people for being repulsed by what repulses them, but I do hope they eventually mature out of it. Meanwhile, they should keep their opinions (i.e., fearful insecurities) to themselves in public.

People who are confident, secure and content in their own lives don't stop to mock and tear others down.

[Madding crowd]

I wish I could like your post 100 times. If you are skinny and healthy enjoy your life and let others enjoy theirs. I don’t believe for a minute anyone is worried about a stranger having chub rub.

[Madding crowd]

The show is about how women are treated in society and Plum learning to love herself and feel confident just as she is. Verneena’s goal for Plum is to understand loving yourself cannot be based on superficial things. The name of the show and the book refers to the way women are forced to live. 

[tennisgurl]

As much as I love the idea of taking down the Patriarchy and all that, and holding rapists and the people who protect them accountable, I cant really get behind Jennifer. Kidnapping a little kid to get his dad to print their manifesto is an awful thing to do. And murdering people, even rapists, and dumping them off planes doesn't seem like any real kind of justice. 

I love Plum, and I feel bad for her obvious self esteem issues. To me, she is a very lovely woman (if I was into women, I would probably buy her a drink) but all she sees is FAT, and thats really sad. 

[izabella]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I love Plum, and I feel bad for her obvious self esteem issues. To me, she is a very lovely woman (if I was into women, I would probably buy her a drink) but all she sees is FAT, and thats really sad. 

I wonder if that's because she thinks fat is all everyone else sees when they see her.   Would she see more than fat if everyone around her treated her the same as they would treat someone who is slimmer?

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

Probably.  But then again she chose to work for a very superficial publication.  A publication that wants her writing, but doesn't want her to be seen.

The first thing she needs to do is get a different kind of job.  She needs to get out of that superficial environment that is based on being thin and looks. 

Plum has no control over anyone else.  She has no control over how anyone views her.  All Plum can do, is decide for herself how she wants to react to how others treat her.

Good points.  Plum does seem to value herself based on other's reactions to her body.  And she seems to let those exaggerated reactions define her, in her own mind.  I'm really trying to follow along on this, because her body is just not large enough to draw that degree of a negative response, but, I'm just playing along. 

[Zanne]

On 6/19/2018 at 11:05 AM, Princess Sparkle said:

 This poster used to hang in my grade school as a kid, and it's stuck in my head to this day.

 

I used that in a lesson this year, though it was "equal" vs. "fair". I wish I could remember what it was, but I'd have to scan through my lesson plans for that since my brain has turned off for summer vacation. It started a good conversation with my students, though!

[Miles]

So Jennifer's big objection to UK tabloids was that they showed naked women? Where is all that body positivity bullshit all of a sudden? And their solution was to show naked men with their genitals in full view? How is that equivalent? You aren't allowed to show women's vaginas. Men's asses would have been roughly equivalent. It's also not like there aren't magazines that do show naked men, including their asses, out there. Not sure what the point was, really.

I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to sympathise with Jennifer at this point. I think I am, but man is the show doing a bad job with it. Between murdering people, risking innocent civilians lives and inventing problems where there are non and then going way overboard, I really don't like them.

As for the manifesto, they do know that women make the same money as men when doing the same job and putting in the same hours, right?

The only way that could save my interest in them would be a Fight Club / Mr Robot reveal where Plum is unknowingly the head of Jennifer.

 

On 20.6.2018 at 9:50 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Besides, we see ugly men dating beautiful women all the time. No one says they should only be interested in dating people who are as unattractive as they are.

Yeah, but those men are rich and Plum is broke.

On the plus side, Plum is actually really good looking, no matter what she thinks, so she should be able to bag somebody equally good or even better looking if she put herself out there.

 

On 21.6.2018 at 1:38 AM, BooBear said:

I am not sure what is going on there but my take is that she thinks he is too young.

A lot of people here seem to think this. It didn't cross my mind, but if it did so many of yours, that might actually be a sexism issue worth exploring. If it was a man at Plum's age and a woman at the coffee shop guys, would you still think she was too young for him? Would you project that onto the character?

I'm not even convinced the age difference is that big. Joy Nash is 37 and Will Seefried looks 30ish, though I can't find his actual age, which is a first in the whole history of the internet.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Miles