S04.E07: The Wrong Side of Where You Are Now 2018.06.03

[raven]

Quote

Madison's decision to help an adversary has unintended consequences. John Dorie's life hangs in the balance.

[DeadandBloated]

OMG the sun is going down and it's still 100 degrees outside. I'm melting lol

[raven]

So after all that buildup, it looks like whatever happened to Madison happened because Alicia and Nick were too dumb to drive a car away from a bunch of zombies.

Not to mention going after Mel because of Charlie or because if they didn't they'd be bad people or something.

John Dorie's life is still hanging in the balance.

But we got ourselves a convoy!

[patty1h]

I'm so confused by the flashbacks! Nick is alive, and talking to Madison and that tween Charlie at the stadium, then Charlie is in that army vehicle with Althea saying she's sorry that she killed Nick. Also, I don't know when Kevin Zeger's character injury happened. That's just two aspects of the janky timelines that are leaving me scratching my head.

[DixonVixen2359]

Well everything went to shit, Mel actually tried to warn them, Madison is stubborn, and Nick and Alicia are nitwits. 

[DixonVixen2359]

We got about 10 seconds of an semi conscious John in this episode...not enough!

Really hoping they don't kill him off. He has blown past Daryl as the heartthrob of the Fear/TWD franchise, and I'm liking the dynamic between him and Morgan. Please don't kill off my eye candy.

Goodnight everyone, thanks for the chat. Until next week

Edited June 4, 2018 by DixonVixen2359

[JackONeill]

I know we’ve had two timelines. The Old Days, pre fall of stadium. And the New Days, post fall of stadium and where Morgan “lives.” But was there a third timeline tonight. For instance, when did the ambulance blow up? When was John shot? 

Morgan et al grab John at the beginning of the episode during the firefight, and drive him to the stadium, but they don’t get to the stadium until the end of the episode, which is after the stadium has fallen. And at what point of time was Nick killed? Because the girl is with Morgan et al. which I guess is now — not in the past.

And is Mel dead or not?

[SoSueMe]

10 minutes ago, DixonVixen2359 said:

Well everything went to shit, Mel actually tried to warn them, Madison is stubborn, and Nick and Alicia are nitwits. 

Way back, second episode in, I remember thinking these idiots were too stupid to live. And yet, they live. Well, not Nick, I guess :)

[redpencil]

Quote

I know we’ve had two timelines. The Old Days, pre fall of stadium. And the New Days, post fall of stadium and where Morgan “lives.” But was there a third timeline tonight. For instance, when did the ambulance blow up? When was John shot? 

There's still just two timelines. Everything in the Old Days (stadium pre-fall) has been chronological. Everything in the New Days (stadium post-fall) has been chronological. The Old Days have yet to catch up to where we started with the New Days (after the stadium fell, when Alicia/Nick/etc. initially encountered Morgan/John/Al). John being shot and the ambulance blowing up was just a continuation of the New Days timeline. Mel is dead, because Alicia killed him after the ambulance blew up.

[Iguessnot]

This is the first time the two time periods got a little wonky for me because I had to keep remembering what I know because they were going back and forth continuously.

I have a problem with this Charlie character because the show seems to think the audience feels like Madison and overlooks everything she does. Although Nick questioned believing her, his tone and demeanor was so "suburban mom" is was sickening. Even when she killed Nick, Alicia and Luciana (Lucia?) became passive in her pursuit. When Luciana (Lucia?) comes face to face with her tonight during their revenge shooting, all she can muster up is a frightened stare. Charlie is not a toddler and she doesn't deserve such deference. I can overlook Morgan, because that's his thing and doesn't know her full treachery, but there's no excuse for the others.

Dumb and dumber sitting in a running car waiting for a bunch of walkers to surround them -- whenever the originals show up in mass, everything suffers.

[MostlyContent]

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

The Old Days, pre fall of stadium. And the New Days, post fall of stadium and where Morgan “lives.”

The 'then' and the 'now'.  They're usually delineated by either sepia tones or color, and they switch that shit from episode to episode.   Apparently they think that's cute.  :)

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

But was there a third timeline tonight.

Nope. 

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

For instance, when did the ambulance blow up? When was John shot? 

In the 'now'.   Happening now in real time.  

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

Morgan et al grab John at the beginning of the episode during the firefight, and drive him to the stadium, but they don’t get to the stadium until the end of the episode, which is after the stadium has fallen.

The stadium fell some time ago.  As far as I can tell, a LONG time ago.  Since then, apparently Alicia, Nick, Strand, and Nick's gf have been pissed off about what happened at the stadium, and traveling alone until (beginning of the season) they ran into Morgan, John, and the chick from LOST.   Shortly after the two groups met up, the duplicitous devil child killed Nick.  So he's been dead for at least a day or two (or a week or two).  

So the Laura person obviously did something that the stadium group blames her for (death of Madison??), hence Alicia shooting John accidentally while aiming (ha) at Laura/Nicole/Naomi/whateverthefuckhernameis.  

10 hours ago, JackONeill said:

And is Mel dead or not?

Dead.  Alicia killed him during 'now' this episode.   

Edited June 4, 2018 by MostlyContent

[MostlyContent]

7 hours ago, raven said:

So after all that buildup, it looks like whatever happened to Madison happened because Alicia and Nick were too dumb to drive a car away from a bunch of zombies.

Yes.  ~sigh~   

I guess if we wanted logic, we'd be watching.............hmmm.  I really can't think of anything I'm watching right now that is logical.  lol!

[JackONeill]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

 

ETA:  Did Althea really have to be told to putdown the damn camera and help transport John?  What an awful human being. 

I think the camera is her characterization. 

Think about it: the writers on this show and the, ahem, other one are not the world’s best. For them, they have “created” a three-dimensional character if they give them a prop. Morgan has his stick. John Dorie has his silver guns. Althena has her camera (and tank!) Madison has her perpetually frozen face. And think of the characters on the other show (that we’re not supposed to talk about.)(Shhh!). There are a whole of lot of characters over there: a cross-bow, a cowboy hat, a silver gun (the first one), a baseball bat. There was even, for awhile, a tiger!!!!!  Wow—that was quite a character.

[nodorothyparker]

I've mostly been okay with the two timelines as a narrative device this season, but yeah, the storytelling was definitely feeling murkier about what happened to characters in which timeline in this one.  Some of it I'm sure was bound to happen as the two timelines began to converge, but the end result left me feeling like I needed a scorecard to keep track of who was on what side in each one and what they knew when.  And for the love of whatever deity, can we please stop having Alicia and crew pull their ridiculously oversized guns on people who are mostly trying to help them whenever things don't go immediately their way?  From the season opener when they crawled out of the roadside ditch to try to rob? hijack? our newer cast, they haven't exactly made much of a case why these newer more interesting characters should want to have to anything to do with them, let alone help them.

Of course we were going to find out that the Clarks went the usual route of this franchise at crunch time running around outside the gates and disregarding whatever plan was already in place.  I would have been more surprised if they hadn't.  The whole Vulture story, though, makes less and less sense unless we're again going to the same tired well of no other reason than crazy's gonna crazy that both shows have done to death.  Okay, you're scavengers and your schtick is to wait people out instead of outright attack.  It seems a tedious route to go for a few canned beans and old boxes of Band-Aids, but they've got the time now that the world has ended.  Which I guess explains how you decide that rounding up a convoy of walkers is a good way to be spending that time.  But you've already got at least enough supplies of food and gas and trucks to comfortably wait them out.  How do you convince other people in large enough numbers to do this that it's also a good use of their time instead of finding someplace safe and also hunkering down?  And assuming you manage to do that, how do you convince yourself or them that it's still a scavenging mission when you set the whole place on fire?  What exactly do you think is going to be left to scavenge?

I don't mind characters having their own identifiers as long as that's not the entire extent of their character.  I would imagine if the world ended and took everything about society that you typically used to define your place in it you'd hang on for dear life to those few things that you knew made you you.  I don't see it as that different than Naomi telling people she's a nurse.  We haven't gotten a ton on Althea beyond her "so what's your story" gimmick yet, but it reads like how she's holding on to who she was before.  As long as she's still playing the journalist on the sidelines, she can tell herself it's just a story she's not a part of, even when she's the one driving these people around to go kill other people.  I liked Morgan reminding her that real people she knows are involved and are going to die if she doesn't get off those sidelines.  But you know, Morgan already had me when he made it plain he didn't give a single fuck about their stupid firefight to stay with John because "he's my friend."  

[JackONeill]

Speaking of Althena (I prefer Maggie) as a journalist.

There was a great Nick Nolte movie back in the ‘80s. He played a journalist who had been sent to Nicaragua during one of their many civil wars. He hung out with a photographer, played by Joanna Cassidy. (Gene Hackman has a GREAT role.)

They go behind enemy lines ... and they start to feel that the rebels—who had first been betrayed as the bad guys—might actually be the good guys. (Revolutions are like that.)

Nolte’s character (and all the other journalists) professed that he was neutral, that he was only there to report the story NOT to become part of the story. Well, of course they do became PART of the story, but in a convincing way (though some may argue about that). But it’s a tough and troubling movie, but it gives a better understanding of how reporters are supposed to think. Reporters don’t pick up guns and shoot back just because someone is shooting at who they think are their “friends.”

So, I have no problem , at least to this point, accepting that it’s thinking like that is causing Althena to hang back. Well, that and she probably has some horrific back story, that probably has something to do with this point.

[Juliegirlj]

Photojournalists have always wrestled with the moral aspect of being strictly an observer. One incident that comes to mind is the burning girl in Vietnam. Although it is a ZA, Al’s main objective was to document- now she has chosen a side so I wonder if she will lay down the camera. 

As was  mentioned up thread, I also thought they should have shot out the tires on the convoy and turned the tables. Nick and Alicia are so dumb and Madison is the Queen of dumb. 

Did not love this episode. 

[MostlyContent]

20 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

The whole Vulture story, though, makes less and less sense unless we're again going to the same tired well of no other reason than crazy's gonna crazy that both shows have done to death.  Okay, you're scavengers and your schtick is to wait people out instead of outright attack.  It seems a tedious route to go for a few canned beans and old boxes of Band-Aids, but they've got the time now that the world has ended.  Which I guess explains how you decide that rounding up a convey of walkers is a good way to be spending that time.  But you've already got at least enough supplies of food and gas and trucks to comfortably wait them out.  How do you convince other people in large enough numbers to do this that it's also a good use of their time instead of finding someplace safe and also hunkering down?  And assuming you manage to do that, how do you convince yourself or them that it's still a scavenging mission when you set the whole place on fire?  What exactly do you think is going to be left to scavenge?

This.  ^^  Exactly.  

Rather like the wolves and the weird 'wants music vinyl' woman in the program that shall not be mentioned.  

Now I'm expecting in the little preview of next week........Madison has been surviving there for ages and somehow blows the back door off the pope mobile in the midst of about 1K walkers.  That would piss me off.  (actually, not really.  I left my expectations at the door a long time ago)

Just in it for the story.  :)   I am enjoying the rejuvenation of FTWD.  I really am, no matter how much I bitch about it.  

Edited June 5, 2018 by MostlyContent

[nitrofishblue]

Both WD shows really stretch the events. I want to know where is this huge  gas station where they get their gas/diesel? All people seem to be able to tool around the countryside with no regard to gas usage. The same goes for ammo. None of them shot worth a c*** and bullets go flying around with no restraint. At least in TWD, there was Eugene with his bullet making factory. There is nothing like that in FTWD. Amazing the amount of ammo they waste. They couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at five yards.

[Mahamid Frauded Me]

The back and forth between the story lines really confused me, I could have used some cliff notes . So was the stadium occupied previously and abandoned ? 

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I was impressed by Mel's hair even after he got flambéed. 

[CloudySky]

3 hours ago, Mahamid Frauded Me said:

The back and forth between the story lines really confused me, I could have used some cliff notes . So was the stadium occupied previously and abandoned ? 

Madison and crew are happy in the stadium celebrating their 1-year anniversary of living there. They have taken in a girl named Charlie.

They go looking for her parents but find Naomi instead.

The happy life hits a snag: Nick's crops have weevils. Charlie who was secretly spying for the Vultures reports back everything she found out as we meet our villains for the season.

The food situation at the stadium goes from bad to worse. Just when all hope is lost, Naomi pulls through with her secret FEMA JIC truck.

The Vultures "give up" and leave them alone.

Mel and Ennis get into a fight about how to proceed and part ways. Mel gets hurt in the bus accident and Charlie runs back to the stadium for help.

They ultimately take them in but eventually kick Mel out. Charlie and their moral compass compell Alicia and Nick to go out there looking for a hurt Mel so he doesn't die as the Stadium prepares for Ennis' attack.

Alicia, Nick and Mel are in the car outside as the flaming walker herd heads for the stadium. Madison decides to open the gate to go help them out. The fate of everyone hangs in the balance but we already know Alicia, Nick, Mel, Strand, Luciana, Charlie, Naomi make it out alive. Somehow Charlie and Mel end back up with the vultures and Naomi and Madison end up presumed dead. Probably the rest of the stadium people too. How this all happens remains a mystery.

Some time after these events Alicia's crew meets Morgan's crew. Nick kills Ennis. Charlie kills Nick. Alicia kills Mel.

Al, Morgan, Naomi, Charlie and Jon escape the standoff in current time between the vultues and Alicia/Strand/Luciana to head to the stadium. The vultures have picked the whole area clean so the overrun stadium is the only place left with the supplies Naomi needs because even the vultures wouldn't risk going in there.

The question is...Why would Ennis do this? Just out of spite? He can't even get their stuff because it's overrun...Why greet Nick so casually when they run into each other like he didn't unleash a horde on his home for no reason...

[Earlwoode]

Okay so that had to be one of the dumbest, stupidest episodes so far.  Why did Nick and Alicia go out after this idiot?  Why did they sit in the car and wait patiently to be surrounded by zombies?  If they knew something was coming, why not booby trap the area around the stadium?  Nails on the ground anyone?  For that matter, why didn't they just shoot the Vultures one by one when they casually sat around in deck chairs when they first showed up?  Three of four getting shot in the head might have discouraged them a teeny bit from just sitting there.  One more question?  Are there any places in America at all where you might find solid stone walls and iron gates instead of every single place being made of plywood?

This show has gotten so dumb and the writing so bad it's beginning to grate on my nerves.  Not sure it's worth watching any more with all these stupid decisions made by the characters all to just to get a herd onscreen.

[Haleth]

Good lord, I'm really hating all the Clarks right now, including Nick's girlfriend.  Especially Alicia.  I was yelling at Al to shoot her from the tank.  Seems to me they are the bad guys now. I don't care if Madison gets killed.  Shooting John, blowing up the ambulance, not letting Mel take Charlie away.  They can all be zombie chow as far as I care. 

[showme]

Well, that is such a disappointing episode!

The story is just so underwhelming and people's actions are so implausible, the whole thing just felt so fake!

[Giselle]

16 hours ago, MostlyContent said:

The 'then' and the 'now'.  They're usually delineated by either sepia tones or color, and they switch that shit from episode to episode.   Apparently they think that's cute.  :)

Nope. 

In the 'now'.   Happening now in real time.  

The stadium fell some time ago.  As far as I can tell, a LONG time ago.  Since then, apparently Alicia, Nick, Strand, and Nick's gf have been pissed off about what happened at the stadium, and traveling alone until (beginning of the season) they ran into Morgan, John, and the chick from LOST.   Shortly after the two groups met up, the duplicitous devil child killed Nick.  So he's been dead for at least a day or two (or a week or two).  

So the Laura person obviously did something that the stadium group blames her for (death of Madison??), hence Alicia shooting John accidentally while aiming (ha) at Laura/Nicole/Naomi/whateverthefuckhernameis.  

Dead.  Alicia killed him during 'now' this episode.   

 

Why can't somebody kill Alicia? PLEASE!

I was smiling at the thought of Madison killed off. She and her family f#_&s everything up just like Rick.

I was estatic when Nick was killed but damn he's still showing up!

And now John Dorie is shot! Shit! I like his character, he hasn't made me want to punch the tv or walk off and make a snack... yet.

[FishyJoe]

I really don't understand why the Vultures are going to all these lengths to attack the stadium. They obviously don't want the stadium or crops, since they unleashed a horde into the stadium. The weapons will likely be useless without bullets or gone if people flee. They have almost no food left. The cars will likely be trashed in the attack. It doesn't seem like they have any dispute or cause for revenge. 

And all Madison has to say is she will burn everything before they let the vultures have it...so why attack??? 

[Philip]

Dammit. This episode was pretty darn boring with the flashbacks and all that, I just wish they would tell the story from its current state.

 

Sucks that they decided to take out Nick from the story, he was one of my favorites.

[JackONeill]

33 minutes ago, FishyJoe said:

I really don't understand why the Vultures are going to all these lengths to attack the stadium. They obviously don't want the stadium or crops, since they unleashed a horde into the stadium. The weapons will likely be useless without bullets or gone if people flee. They have almost no food left. The cars will likely be trashed in the attack. It doesn't seem like they have any dispute or cause for revenge. 

And all Madison has to say is she will burn everything before they let the vultures have it...so why attack??? 

To me, this is the biggest “fail” this season. I’ve never — not for a second — felt any tension between Madison & her tribe and Mel & the Dialtones. Maybe it was the lawchairs and hotdogs. It seemed more like a 4th of July day party.

[nodorothyparker]

The lack of motivation that makes any kind of sense really is the biggest fail in what has otherwise been a much improved half season.  We need an understandable reason the stadium or any of this is worth fighting over, or something that will be a clear gain to the group trying to take it.  Burning it all down just to burn it all down because you're crazy or evil is tediously nihilist and we've already seen it before.

[nodorothyparker]

I think it was the combination of showing up in Madison's escape vehicle AND obviously having been in contact with if not actually a part of the group that lit the stadium up that set Alicia off.  After having been sold out at least once to these people by Charley, who's also a clearly traumatized kid, I can't really fault Alicia for immediately being suspicious of exactly what the timeline with Naomi and the Vulture guys had been too.  The problem comes with her immediately firing at Naomi and hitting John instead without taking the 5 seconds to suss out what the story actually is there first.

That's been my general issue with how the original cast members are being written.  We're finally starting to see that something Very Bad did indeed happen at the stadium, even if we haven't gotten the full extent of it yet.  But Alicia and crew have been pointing guns at everyone they cross without distinction or explanation since they first crawled out of that ditch at the end of season premier, generally behaving like trigger-happy hotheads.    Just on what we've seen we can't be faulted for thinking they're coming off like assholes next to the newer and better cast whose every scene isn't about pulling guns on people or insisting they have to rush off to kill someone.

[Juliegirlj]

This episode made me realize I don’t completely dislike Madison. I just dislike her relationship with her kids. Alicia- I can’t stand. If they got rid of Alicia I would be willing to give Madison another chance. ?

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

If TPTB are going to continue to have two different timelines, then the past needs to be in black and white and the present needs to be in color.  Timelines are squishy enough as it is.

Why not go the whole hog and have someone break the fourth wall every five minutes and explain what's going on? 

I don't get the difficulty with the two time lines, there are only two, they are clearly delineated and two of the main characters only appear in the past as they are dead or missing and possibly dead in the future. It really not that hard.

58 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

That's been my general issue with how the original cast members are being written.  We're finally starting to see that something Very Bad did indeed happen at the stadium, even if we haven't gotten the full extent of it yet.  But Alicia and crew have been pointing guns at everyone they cross without distinction or explanation since they first crawled out of that ditch at the end of season premier, generally behaving like trigger-happy hotheads.

The key theme in TWD is how the ongoing violence and danger inherent in the world of the ZA and the difficult moral choices that arise from this affects the characters and changes them. This has been emphasised repeatedly in this season, with Madison trying to help people who initially at least are hostile to her and act against their own interests. Madison said in this episode that they were better people when they were in the stadium because in there they are building a society that has the capacity to help people and maintain positive moral values, this is in direct contrast / conflict with the philosophy of Mel and the vultures who say that the old world has gone and being selfish and taking what you need for yourself at the expense of others is the only way to go, he actually says "you're trying to be the kind of people who are extinct" meaning you can't be decent in this world if you want to live. the fight between the vultures and the stadium symbolises the conflict between these two ways of living.

From a thematic perspective this works, but there is a problem because the logic of the vultures philosophy doesn't always add up and their are a number of plot holes in their story line. the vultures actively destroying the settled communities doesn't make any sense, whilst there's lifetime's supply of door hinges and lightbulbs out there, it isn't going to be long before the tinned hotdogs are all gone and then what do they do? they are very good at the scavenging thing, it would make much more sense to swap that stuff for an ongoing food supply with the settlers, as it is they're going to eat all the tinned weiners and then realise they killed all the people who knew how to grow more food.

but anyway, the idea is that there aren't any bad guys as such, just people doing bad things because the world they are in is so awful that this is what they need to do, or because they are so traumatised by what they have had to do already. alicia, luciana and strand are at the same place that Laura/Naomi was in when madison found her, they tell us this from the outset, the first thing Alicia says is 'there are bad people out there', and there are, and it's them.

I imagine we'll find out why they have become like this in the next episode, and the question is whether they can come back from it. morgan sees that they cycle of violence and revenge has to end, and there's some hope for them as we see luciana hesitate at  killing a child. for them to be 'saved' they have to forgive charlie and Naomi. (though i suspect Naomi has done nothing wrong anyway). this is again spelled out by madison saying 'no one's gone 'til they're gone'.

[JackONeill]

Maybe it's deliberate, but Morgan seems to be a real oddball (and I don't mean that in a Three Stooges way — although that might be cool to see. People are just too dang serious on this show.).

I know there are practical reasons for this (TPTB have to deal with the old team—Madison, et.al. I think, even if not liked, the audience expects there to be some resolution, be it death or riding off into the sunset.)

But where does this leave Morgan? I have nothing against the actor or really even the character (although the peace and love thing gets old, and is a bit unrealistic isn the world they live), but my point is that he just doesn't seem to fit. From the little I can tell, he does fit in better with the John Dorie crowd (and I include all the new characters in that group). There seems to be a more reticent, almost-non-viollent vibe given off by them. They are not so in your face as Madison has always been. I wonder if that can sustained. And I honestly do not see Madison "blending" with the new gang. So, yeah, I think she's a goner. But I have a bad feeling we're not going to find out next episode. I have this sneaking feeling we're going to get a "Glenn under the dumpster" thing.

And by the way, does anyone know what kind of contract Lennie James has for Fear? I could see him moving on at the end of this season.

[BasilSeal]

1 hour ago, JackONeill said:

But where does this leave Morgan? I have nothing against the actor or really even the character (although the peace and love thing gets old, and is a bit unrealistic isn the world they live), but my point is that he just doesn't seem to fit. From the little I can tell, he does fit in better with the John Dorie crowd (and I include all the new characters in that group).

I don't think it is, all the violence is largely counter productive, if they are going to have any sort of future, that lies with forming some sort of functioning community. They need to protect that community and fight for it but acts of pure revenge serve no purpose. Charlie asks Morgan why he saved her, given that he was nick's friend and she had killed nick, morgan tells her that it is because the cycle of violence has to stop. (obviously it's unlikely that this will happen because there wouldn't be much of a show without all the mindless violence and bad decisions.)

In this story, the best chance both groups had for long term survival was to reach some sort of mutually beneficial understanding, but instead they engage in a pointless conflict that destroys all of them, which is of course walking dead narrative structure 101.

Morgan's philosophy is an entirely practical one, the conflict between the vultures and the stadium is an extravagant waste of resources for two sides that would be better off cooperating, unless they do this, the world is on a fast track to the dark ages. Morgan's role in the narrative is as the moral center, one formally filled by Travis, his character is important to the key theme of whether it is possible to maintain the moral values of the old world.

[JackONeill]

Although I admire Morgan's peace and love beads kind of lifestyle, and I do think that's best in the real world, this isn't the real world. This is a world with zombies. (Yeah, I know TPTB doesn't use that word.) And I also know we're not supposed to mention the, um, other show, but this whole Morgan peacenik think has been argued ad infinitum there, and I certainly have no intention of stirring it up. My major point is that I haven't seen him (nor, do I see him) integrating with the others. (I know there hasn't been a lot of time. Still.) 

Madison has bigger balls than, um, Rick (shhhh--I didn't mention him), and Morgan had trouble controlling him . . . and they had, somewhat, a history. Strand and Alicia seem to be disdainful and distrustful of everyone after the fall of the stadium. Plus, they've seen so much, or think they have, I don't see them listening to Morgan.

Which leaves Al and John Dorie (and by extension Naomi). They seem to be less adversarial than the Madison group, i.e., less inclined to shoot first and ask questions later. So maybe that's the way TPTB intend on taking the show. A more detente kind of show.

[BasilSeal]

49 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

Although I admire Morgan's peace and love beads kind of lifestyle, and I do think that's best in the real world, this isn't the real world. This is a world with zombies.

In fairness that's doesn't really describe the philosophy of Aikido, the marital art that Eastman taught him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido

[BasilSeal]

53 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

That said, around the net there is a common complaint by some individuals that they are having a difficult time with the switching of timelines

One wonders what these individuals made of westworld.

[Philip]

FearTWD used to give like a real survival feel to the series with zombies but now it's gotten just as bad as TWD. The shooting scenes were completely idiotic.

 

Wasting bullets is like wasting water, both are essential (and not just in terms of a TV show).

[JackONeill]

Just now, BasilSeal said:

One wonders what these individuals made of westworld.

To me it's something one does to try make one's work seem more important than it is (or said another way, it's a way that's sometimes used to hide the weaknesses of the story). Most people (true, not all) have complained that even when the writers for the Walking Dead shows stick with a straight A to B plot, it goes careening off the rails. I don't mind this kind of story-telling in one episode (in fact, I complimented the first episode this season), but to have it continuously makes me think I've found a new way to define pretentious.

[BasilSeal]

3 minutes ago, Philip said:

FearTWD used to give like a real survival feel to the series with zombies but now it's gotten just as bad as TWD. The shooting scenes were completely idiotic.

well at least they were trying to shoot their enemies, rather than their enemies' windows, but yes, it wasn't a good idea, morgan did tell them this though.

4 minutes ago, Philip said:

Wasting bullets is like wasting water, both are essential (and not just in terms of a TV show).

Again, you're absolutely right, I don't think the writers are intending to suggest that what  the characters are doing here is a good idea though. Alicia Strand and Luciana are seeking revenge blindly, this is not going to end well for them, either they will realise the error of what they're doing and be 'saved', and start cooperating with the others, or they're going to get killed. IMO.

[FishyJoe]

8 minutes ago, Philip said:

FearTWD used to give like a real survival feel to the series with zombies but now it's gotten just as bad as TWD. The shooting scenes were completely idiotic.

 

Wasting bullets is like wasting water, both are essential (and not just in terms of a TV show).

These shows are particularly awful at realistic gun battles. A lot of shows are guilty of this but it is really bad. I really hate it when people think car doors are bulletproof. I have to cringe when car doors seem to be a shield of invincibility. 

[BasilSeal]

5 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

To me it's something one does to try make one's work seem more important than it is (or said another way, it's a way that's sometimes used to hide the weaknesses of the story). Most people (true, not all) have complained that even when the writers for the Walking Dead shows stick with a straight A to B plot, it goes careening off the rails. I don't mind this kind of story-telling in one episode (in fact, I complimented the first episode this season), but to have it continuously makes me think I've found a new way to define pretentious.

They needed to introduce a character from another show in the same universe where the action was two years ahead of Fear, how else are they supposed to do this but have some sort of time jump? and if they do that, they have to fill in the gaps. these are bog standard narrative techniques

[Daltrey]

Ten minutes in.

Looks like john will probably make it. Thank god, the show would be stupid to waste Garret that fast.

Alicia realizing Al had her JUST SLIGHTLY outgunned and surrendering was priceless.

Al needs to give up this notion that she's a casual observer to all this. There are no documentarians in the ZA.

LOVE that they drove off leaving the threetards wasting their ammo on a fully armored tank truck.

I fear the day that Morgan's ideals and morality get him killed.

[Daltrey]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

All I am saying is that it would be easier to distinguish between the past and the present by having the past scenes in black and white and the present in color.  I don't see why that would be a big deal, it is a simple fix.

Holy F, it's been fixed since the start of the season! The PAST is in COLOUR, the PRESENT is in near BLACK & WHITE as you can possibly get without using actual black and white film. So far, if Madison is on screen, it is the PAST. That can be used as an indicator to judge what COLOUR looks like. Conversely, Every time that Morgan, John and Althea (Al) are on screen, that is the PRESENT and can be used to indicate what is essentially supposed to be BLACK & WHITE. As others have said, it's really not that hard to follow; at least two others above have given relatively clear explanations. Maybe for some people it just means not having laptops, tablets or other devices and things pulling their focus in five different directions. A little paying full attention can go a long way.

 

11 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

the logic of the vultures philosophy

There is no logic in the philosophy.......

11 hours ago, BasilSeal said:

the vultures actively destroying the settled communities doesn't make any sense

....because rounding up the dead and unleashing them on the settled communities to prove your belief that said communities aren't safe and will inherently succumb and fall to attacks from the dead is idiotic and insane. Just because they believe everyone is safer roaming the streets of the world along with the dead like packs of feral animals doesn't make them clairvoyant......or right. I knew this was going to be the plan the first time the vulture's showed up outside the stadium and herded all the walkers in the parking lot into the horse trailer before plunking their lawn chairs down. I had thought it was kind of a smart and cool way to try and eventually seize the stadium for themselves, but this plot development is just ridiculous. Ironically, I'm still relatively enjoying it; amazing what the addition of a couple of great actors can do for a show, eh?

 

9 hours ago, JackONeill said:

we're not supposed to mention the, um, other show

Speaking of, why are we not allowed to mention it? I think that's kind of BS. It's part of a shared universe that already even contains one shared character, with the potential to have more, should they choose to. If we were a group of friends sitting around talking about it, both shows would naturally come up as a means of comparing and contrasting, and as an online community is essentially the same thing, I think the same rules of logic should apply. For example, I should be able to say that while it's been horribly handled and overly drawn out, I think Negan's Philosophy and The Saviours as a whole are more believable as antagonists than the Vultures are, but I feel that so far, FTWD has handled their storytelling better this year than TWD did last season overall.

 

What is so wrong with that?

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, Daltrey said:

Holy F, it's been fixed since the start of the season! The PAST is in COLOUR, the PRESENT is in near BLACK & WHITE as you can possibly get without using actual black and white film

Except in the episode where Nick was killed it was the past that had the washed out colors, except for blue, because, you know, "look at the blue bonnets, Nick."  (Or whatever those blue flowers were that Madison pointed out.)  So they aren't even consistent with the use of color as a time marker.

[nodorothyparker]

Okay, for clarification:

Mentioning the mother show is fine.  A bit of generalization or snark, say that both Rick and Madison's groups have had fairly high body counts or left trails of destruction in their wake, is fine.  They both exist in the same universe and share a character who now has a history with both, after all.  What we don't want is getting into detailed plot discussion or giving away larger plot spoilers for a show that isn't this one in threads about episodes for this show.  Not everyone watches both shows.  Not everyone is caught up on both shows.  

If you need to get into specific compare and contrasts of the two shows, please take it to The Clarks Vs. Camp Dinner Bell, a thread in this forum just for that.  Or if you're wanting to talk primarily about The Walking Dead, it also has its own forum where these same general rules apply.

[seacliffsal]

Well, as a returnee to this show who hadn't watched since the first season, I had been enjoying the season until this episode.  People would not have survived this long being as stupid as they were in this episode.  The real problem was that they didn't send Charlie with Mel when he left.  Then it all went downhill...  Too many decisions/actions that just didn't make any sense other than to allow the vultures to successfully destroy the stadium community.  Depending on next week's episode I may not return for the second half of the season.

[BasilSeal]

15 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

The real problem was that they didn't send Charlie with Mel when he left.

Why send either of them away? Surely Ennis wouldn't unleash fiery walker Armageddon on the stadium when his brother and Charlie were still inside? Why don't they try and draw the walkers away with the range rover when they have the chance? Or make it clear to Ennis that they have his Brother at gunpoint and will shoot him if he releases the walkers, or basically do anything other than just sit there in a fully functioning vehicle and do nothing.

It's disappointing but it's kind of a recurring problem with this franchise, up until now it's been more prevalent in the main show and Fear has mostly avoided the trope of making the characters stupid in order to create conflict and danger. But it seems after this episode that in this world, everyone is infected with the stupid virus.

It occurs to me that there is a logistical problem for the writers in a long running show of this nature, in a film you have say two episodes worth of TV show screen time to tell the entire story so you are going to come o a conclusion, either everyone is killed or there turns out to be some sort of cure. If you want your TV series to go on and on with an open ended story like the comics, then this creates a problem. The zombies in TWD are a plot device, they create a permanent existential threat and much of the narrative revolves around how ordinary people are changed by this threat. The walkers though are governed by a set of fairly simple rules WRT how they work, once you know what these rules are, you an start to find work arounds for dealing with the walkers, like the vultures have. the trouble is if people are smart and find ways of dealing with the walkers other than wrestling them to the ground and bashing them on the head with basic hand tools then the threat is diminished and we don't have a show anymore.

The upshot of this is that the characters never learn, or progress, occasionally we see cool or ingenious ways of coping with the walkers but no one ever uses them again, no one in the TWD universe ever learns anything from their mistakes or the success of others.

Madison's last encampment was over run by a herd, but has she made contingency plans to draw a herd away if the same happened at the stadium? they see the vultures deal with walkers in a really ingenious way, but do they copy them? it's frustrating because the characters aren't stupid, but the writers make them stupid when the plot demands it.

Despite these major flaws though i still agree with @Daltrey that the story telling in this show is better, it's just unfortunate that the thematic aspects of the plot have over ridden the need to have a realistic motivation for the characters' actions.

[zobot81]

Gimple.

Curse you.

[Gobi]

WTF is so special about Charlie? I sort of get it with Mel, but why on earth are the Clarks obsessed with her? Especially after she betrayed them.