Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[Fool to cry]

 

[Anduin]

 There's no disability in movies thread, so I suppose that this is close enough. Peter Dinklage complains about the planned live-action remake of Snow White.

Quote

“I was a little taken aback when they were very proud to cast a Latina actress as Snow White. You’re still telling the story of ‘Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.’ Take a step back and look at what you’re doing there. It makes no sense to me,” the actor told Maron. “You’re progressive in one way and you’re still making that fucking backwards story about seven dwarfs living in a cave together, what the fuck are you doing man? Have I done nothing to advance the cause from my soapbox? I guess I’m not loud enough.”

He makes a good point. I once read that he tries to avoid dwarf stereotypes when possible. But he did play a fantasy dwarf in one of the Narnia movies, along with Warwick Davies. OTOH, TV Tropes points out the similarities between Tyrion Lannister and stereotypical fantasy dwarves.

Quote

He fights surprisingly fiercely with axes and crossbows, grows something you could call a beard, makes a big deal about Casterly Rock and its gold mines being his rightful inheritance, drinks heavily, has trouble controlling his temper, holds grudges like nobody else, mistakes a female dwarf for a male one.

Outside of that, short actors need to work no matter what the project. Maybe if there were a couple of female dwarves, and their home was just a far-flung outpost of a larger dwarf culture, it wouldn't be so bad. Maybe one that recently collapsed for some reason, and they're cut off from home. I for one would like to see more of Arti Shah, though that might just be because she's pretty and I'm shallow.

Thanks, Bastet!

[Kel Varnsen]

16 minutes ago, Anduin said:

 There's no disability in movies thread, so I suppose that this is close enough. Peter Dinklage complains about the planned live-action remake of Snow White.

He makes a good point. I once read that he tries to avoid dwarf stereotypes when possible. But he did play a fantasy dwarf in one of the Narnia movies, along with Warwick Davies. OTOH, TV Tropes points out the similarities between Tyrion Lannister and stereotypical fantasy dwarves.

Outside of that, short actors need to work no matter what the project. Maybe if there were a couple of female dwarves, and their home was just a far-flung outpost of a larger dwarf culture, it wouldn't be so bad. Maybe one that recently collapsed for some reason, and they're cut off from home. I for one would like to see more of Arti Shah, though that might just be because she's pretty and I'm shallow.

Thanks, Bastet!

So is his concern that they would cast little people to play the dwarves or that it is a movie where 7 out of the 10 or so main characters are dwarves. Would he be ok if taller people were cast and made to loom short like they did in Elf (which he was in). 

[Anduin]

6 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So is his concern that they would cast little people to play the dwarves or that it is a movie where 7 out of the 10 or so main characters are dwarves. Would he be ok if taller people were cast and made to loom short like they did in Elf (which he was in). 

No, that it's playing into hackneyed stereotypes of little people. Ones that he's worked to overcome. Even your average fantasy dwarf has evolved beyond the Snow White/Tolkien depictions. This movie will be going backwards in that respect.

[possibilities]

I say we just flat out abandon the whole Snow White story. No more remakes. No more!! There are plenty of other stories to tell.

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by possibilities

[Anduin]

1 minute ago, possibilities said:

I saw we just flat out abandon the whole Snow White story. No more remakes. No more!! There are plenty of other stories to tell.

 

Disney have apparently discovered that there's a lot of money in these remakes. I haven't heard anyone say that they're really good, worth making from the artistic side, but from the financial side, it seems like a winner.

[possibilities]

Just because they can make money off it, doesn't mean they should. It's not like Disney can't make money some other way. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Anduin said:

No, that it's playing into hackneyed stereotypes of little people. Ones that he's worked to overcome. Even your average fantasy dwarf has evolved beyond the Snow White/Tolkien depictions. This movie will be going backwards in that respect.

It seems more like he’s objected to them making any movie based off of the story of Snow White. Nothing is actually known about how they are doing to handles the dwarves. So far the movie has been called just Snow White. He may be right or the movie could actually do something good. 

2 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Just because they can make money off it, doesn't mean they should. It's not like Disney can't make money some other way. 

I’ve never really understood this argument. Plenty of people will enjoy the movie and that is more than enough of a reason for any movie to be made. 

8 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Disney have apparently discovered that there's a lot of money in these remakes. I haven't heard anyone say that they're really good, worth making from the artistic side, but from the financial side, it seems like a winner.

Personally, I do think a few of the remakes have been really good. They don’t replace the original but the are entertaining and often it is easier to get kids to watch the new version than the old fashioned cartoon version. I have had to sit through so many truly awful kids shows and movies that I will gladly take anyone of the remakes any day of the week if it means I can skip power rangers. 

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

I’ve never really understood this argument. Plenty of people will enjoy the movie and that is more than enough of a reason for any movie to be made. 

We stop producing all kinds of things that are full of offensive garbage. There are probably people who would enjoy Little Black Sambo, too, but that's rightly not going to be seen in any new Disney production, either.

[Anduin]

5 hours ago, Dani said:

It seems more like he’s objected to them making any movie based off of the story of Snow White. Nothing is actually known about how they are doing to handles the dwarves. So far the movie has been called just Snow White. He may be right or the movie could actually do something good.

I suppose that I agree with his sentiment that it'll be, if not actually offensive, then certainly backwards-looking. By all accounts, the new remakes have played it close to the original. This one probably will too.

[angora]

If it IS played close to the original, Snow White will be patronizing as hell to the dwarves. They're all grown men working in a mine, and most of them are old enough to have white beards, but she coos at them like they're children in the animated film.

And on some level, regardless of whether the portrayal is "stereotypical," the idea of fantasy/fairytale dwarves in and of itself is probably a big part of what Peter Dinklage takes issue with. Every time characters like fantasy dwarves, leprechauns, or Santa's elves pop up onscreen, it reinforces this weird, dumb notion that people with dwarfism aren't actually human. Not that people of average height are running around going fully Will-Ferrell-in-Elf on folks with dwarfism all the time, but these not-fully-human tropes do affect how people with dwarfism are treated. I can't find it now, but years ago, when Dinklage was a known actor but before he had his present clout/fame, I was reading an interview with him where he mentioned people coming up to him on public transportation to literally rub him for good luck. When he won his first Golden Globe in 2012, he brought attention in his speech to Martin Henderson, a guy with dwarfism who left partially paralyzed after someone picked him up outside a pub and tried to THROW him.

Obviously, not all actors with dwarfism are as reticent to play non-human "creatures" as Dinklage, and many need to make their own choices amid extremely limited options for them, but I understand why the mere idea of a live-action Snow White remake, sight unseen, would be distasteful to Dinklage.

[Spartan Girl]

Peter is right to feel this way. Yeah, he played a dwarf in the Narnia movie but that was earlier in his career; he did what he had to do to get his foot in the door. Ever since then, he’s spent his whole career trying to give little people respect in the entertainment industry instead of being just used as punchlines. Playing Tyrion in GOT was a gamechanger: he was a smart, complex character who just happened to be a dwarf. His height was not his defining quality. And ever since that success, he’s managed to land roles of similar substance. He’s even playing the lead in Cyrano now.

So yeah. It’s more than understandable that he’s taking this personally.

[supposebly]

4 minutes ago, angora said:

I was reading an interview with him where he mentioned people coming up to him on public transportation to literally rub him for good luck. When he won his first Golden Globe in 2012, he brought attention in his speech to Martin Henderson, a guy with dwarfism who left partially paralyzed after someone picked him up outside a pub and tried to THROW him.

I don't understand people. How do you confuse a real person with a fairy tale dwarf? Where does that come from that rubbing a dwarf is for good luck? Or that you should be throwing someone with dwarfism around?

I can't think of any fantasy story where that would be a thing? And let's just not mention Peter Jackson including something like that in the LOTR movies. Ugh. It was not in the books.

The original Snow White (Schneewittchen) I read as a child was more problematic for how a prince falls in love with a corpse and then she marries him. Never even mind the stepmother's obsession with being the prettiest. Now there is a topic that could be addressed in a modern take. 

Snow White kept the household of the dwarves and was being stupid a few times when her stepmother sold her things that could kill her. The dwarves kept telling her not to talk to anyone while they were out working the mines and she wasn't listening. The dwarves are mainly nice people who help her out and in exchange she cooks and cleans for them. And then she abandons them for the prince who begged them to give him the dead girl in a glass coffin. Never to be mentioned again. Instead there is a gruesome ending for the stepmother who has to dance at the wedding in hot iron shoes until she dies.

I've never seen the Disney version, so I can't say but as has been said upthread, there are plenty of stories to be told, redoing another problematic Grimm's fairy tale is really not that high on my list of must-see things. Especially not from Disney.

[Spartan Girl]

One part of the interview that I think we overlooked is that Peter said he wasn’t completely opposed to a new Snow White, just update it to today’s standards— meaning let the dwarves be actual characters treated like adults and not just the childish comic relief. And that’s more than fair. If Disney can do a Latina Snow White, they can modernize the dwarves too.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, possibilities said:

We stop producing all kinds of things that are full of offensive garbage. There are probably people who would enjoy Little Black Sambo, too, but that's rightly not going to be seen in any new Disney production, either.

Sorry. I wasn’t saying that people enjoying something means it is okay to remake offensive content. However, I also don’t agree that we should throw out Snow White. It is very possible to make it in a way that furthers meaningful representation. Taking something that many people (especially children) already love and making it modern and truly inclusive would be a beautiful thing. 

I’m Asian and I just saw Marvel take a character with a horribly racist origin and develop a really amazing movie that furthered representation in wonderful way. I’d love to see that done with other characters. It can and should be done when possible.  

17 hours ago, Anduin said:

I suppose that I agree with his sentiment that it'll be, if not actually offensive, then certainly backwards-looking. By all accounts, the new remakes have played it close to the original. This one probably will too.

How closely they follow the original has varied. They have made changes to make them less problematic. Lion King was virtually a shot for shot remake. Dumbo is basically an entirely different movie. 

Snow White is a story that will have to change more than something like Cinderella just because it is more problematic. I do think that Disney is aware that Snow White needs an overhaul just based on what was done with Once Upon A Time. If they aren’t, than his comments are coming early enough in the process for them to make those changes if they didn’t already intent to. If they don’t I will be right there criticizing them. 

Personally, Snow White is my least favorite Disney princess movie because of all those issues so I am actually excited to see what they do with it. 

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

One part of the interview that I think we overlooked is that Peter said he wasn’t completely opposed to a new Snow White, just update it to today’s standards— meaning let the dwarves be actual characters treated like adults and not just the childish comic relief. And that’s more than fair. If Disney can do a Latina Snow White, they can modernize the dwarves too.

Thank you for posting that. Sounds like I am in complete agreement with him. If it’s done it needs to be done right. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Guest

[JustHereForFood]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

One part of the interview that I think we overlooked is that Peter said he wasn’t completely opposed to a new Snow White, just update it to today’s standards— meaning let the dwarves be actual characters treated like adults and not just the childish comic relief. And that’s more than fair. If Disney can do a Latina Snow White, they can modernize the dwarves too.

Yes, I understand it as him side-eying Disney for proclaiming themselves as being progressive with casting Latina actress as Snow White (what I don't really understand TBH) and overlooking how stereotypically dwarves are portrayed in that story.

In this case I take the opinion of "Why even make the movie", even though I loved some Disney remakes and am looking forward to many others. But Snow White has been done to death, same as Cinderella. There were 2 versions just recently in 2012, one of which even had people of average height as dwarves (I guess they could not find any actors of the height they needed). 

[Spartan Girl]

Disney responds to Peter Dinklage comments

Well, the fact that they’re consulting with the dwarfism community is a good sign. Let’s see how it goes.

I hate how much crap Peter is getting on social media, people accusing him of hypocrisy because of the stereotype roles he played in Narnia and Elf. Again, that was before GOT, he couldn’t exactly afford to be picky back then. Now people are acting like he wants to cancel Snow White. Ugh.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Trini]

5 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

 

In this case I take the opinion of "Why even make the movie", even though I loved some Disney remakes and am looking forward to many others. But Snow White has been done to death, same as Cinderella.

And Snow White isn't even that great a story. There are so many other better stories. At least with Cinderella, you've got the basic theme of 'good person overcoming adversity and being rewarded' that can be (and has been) adapted in many different ways.

Snow White isn't as adaptable to a modern setting, or other contexts unless major changes are made.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

In this case I take the opinion of "Why even make the movie", even though I loved some Disney remakes and am looking forward to many others. But Snow White has been done to death, same as Cinderella.

I understand this argument but would counter that it’s not like there are other opportunities people with dwarfism. The sad reality is that for the actors who could be cast in those roles probably just won’t be working if this movie isn’t made. To me taking those characters and creating positive representation makes it worthwhile.

Personally I also see a lot of value in this and the Little Mermaid remake because it takes two characters that often were part of excluding BIPOC and broadens how we see representation. Also it’s a bit of a thumb in the eye of racists which is never a bad thing in my opinion. 

4 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Disney responds to Peter Dinklage comments

Well, the fact that they’re consulting with the dwarfism community is a good sign. Let’s see how it goes.

I hate how much crap Peter is getting on social media, people accusing him of hypocrisy because of the stereotype roles he played in Narnia and Elf. Again, that was before GOT, he couldn’t exactly afford to be picky back then. Now people are acting like he wants to cancel Snow White. Ugh.

I completely agree. I hate that people use what actors had to do to work in a racist industry against them. Of course many of those same people also criticize actors like Mena Massoud who speaks out about not being able to work because he won’t take offensive stereotypical roles. 

[possibilities]

People with dwarfism can be cast in most roles. There's no reason to limit them to roles specifically branded as dwarves.

Edited January 26, 2022 by possibilities

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, possibilities said:

People with dwarfism can be cast in most roles. There's no reason to limit them to roles specifically branded as dwarves.

Of course but will they? There’s also no reason to limit roles for any minority other than racism, sexism, ableism…. Hollywood is a horrible industry. They need to be better at inclusive casting across the board but we are where we are and reclaiming traditionally hurtful roles has it’s own benefits. In the end my thoughts line up completely with Peter Dinklage’s, "If you tell the story of 'Snow White' with the most f---ed up, progressive spin on it? Let's do it. All in".

The beautiful thing about this is that whether or not anyone thinks it should the movie is happening and now the gauntlet has been laid down. They need to do it right and that means listening to the voices of those who are impacted. If they were smart they would invite Dinkage into the process. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Dani said:

Of course but will they? There’s also no reason to limit roles for any minority other than racism, sexism, ableism…. Hollywood is a horrible industry.

Before the sequel to A Quiet Place came out, there was an article in the The New Yorker about how the first movie was 'silently regressive' because of the premise of it.

https://www.indiewire.com/2020/02/john-krasinski-quiet-place-criticism-regressive-white-people-guns-1202212378/

“As horror films go, it’s the antithesis of ‘Get Out,'” Brody wrote, “inasmuch as its symbolic realm is both apparently unconscious and conspicuously regressive.” The review criticized “A Quiet Place” for its central narrative about a white family with guns protecting their home from “a bunch of big, dark, stealthy, predatory creatures.”

I didn't read the original article, so I don't know if the writer mentioned the casting of deaf actress Millicent Simmonds as the oldest child of John Krasinski and Emily Blunt's characters, who saves the lives of her mom and siblings, but if not he either didn't watch the movie, or he did and he wanted the aliens to eat the girl. Especially since he directly compares it to Get Out.

Yes Peter Dinklage has been limited in his choice of roles by the industry. I even thought he deserved a lot better than Pixels, and he was the best thing about that mess. I don't ding him for taking less than stellar parts so he could get his name out there. But sometimes one person's progress is another person's ism. If this movie has anything that even smells like a stereotype, they'll get crucified no matter how much they involve him beforehand. I haven't seen the animated version of Snow White in a very long time, so I'm not sure if it would even translate into live action. Since it's about a step mom who hates her husband's daughter so much she boots her out into the woods, that seems like a more problematic theme than the dwarves, but I could be reading it wrong.

[Luckylyn]

The movie Snow White: A Tale of Terror is an awesome take on the story staring Sigourney Weaver as the step mother. 

Ranking 9 versions of Snow White

 

[Spartan Girl]

Speaking Peter Dinklage I was pissed to see a bunch of IMDB customer reviewed (yeah yeah I know) already accusing Cyrano of being “woke trash” for changing the character into a dwarf instead of someone with a big nose. As if that’s the most sacred part of the story despite there being TONS of Cyrano remakes/modern takes with the lead not having big noses.

Newsflash, jerkasses: THE NOSE DOES NOT MATTER. It never did. The whole point of the story was Cyrano being insecure about his looks and feeling unworthy of Roxanne. It isn’t “woke” just to swap a big nose with being a dwarf—it actually makes his feelings more valid, given how little people were treated in that time period. It gives the story more depth. If you want things to be exactly like the original, then go watch the original, don’t crap all over the new movie because you’re too narrow minded to see the story in a different perspective!

[Annber03]

I would seriously love it if people would get off of "It's too woke!" as their criticism of why they don't like a movie or show or whatever. If you (general "you") have a specific problem with the story, just come right out and state what your actual issue is already, instead of hiding behind the "too woke!" complaint. That criticism has been thrown around so much to the point where any meaning it might've once had (which honestly wasn't much to begin with) is gone. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

I would seriously love it if people would get off of "It's too woke!" as their criticism of why they don't like a movie or show or whatever. If you (general "you") have a specific problem with the story, just come right out and state what your actual issue is already, instead of hiding behind the "too woke!" complaint. That criticism has been thrown around so much to the point where any meaning it might've once had (which honestly wasn't much to begin with) is gone. 

But then they would have to admit that they actually do have a problem with disabled people, Black people, queer people or women. Most of them are aware enough to realize that hate doesn’t look good and try to appear logical and reasonable. If they play with semantics and fallacies they can get more people to think they have a point or convince themselves that they do have a reasonable point. I have to admit that before I started really listening and paying attention I bought into some of that crap. 

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Speaking Peter Dinklage I was pissed to see a bunch of IMDB customer reviewed (yeah yeah I know) already accusing Cyrano of being “woke trash” for changing the character into a dwarf instead of someone with a big nose. As if that’s the most sacred part of the story despite there being TONS of Cyrano remakes/modern takes with the lead not having big noses.

Newsflash, jerkasses: THE NOSE DOES NOT MATTER. It never did. The whole point of the story was Cyrano being insecure about his looks and feeling unworthy of Roxanne. It isn’t “woke” just to swap a big nose with being a dwarf—it actually makes his feelings more valid, given how little people were treated in that time period. It gives the story more depth. If you want things to be exactly like the original, then go watch the original, don’t crap all over the new movie because you’re too narrow minded to see the story in a different perspective!

I actually hadn’t realized they had made this change. Now I need to go find it and watch because I enjoy the plot but it alone wasn’t enough to make be interested. A new twist with more depth sound interesting. Which is exactly what the bigots don’t understand. Diversity brings interesting new depth to tired plots. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Guest

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I would seriously love it if people would get off of "It's too woke!" as their criticism of why they don't like a movie or show or whatever.

It is a nice time-saving signal, though -- anyone who uses "woke" or "social justice warrior" as an insult immediately tells me whatever they have to say isn't worth another moment of my time.

[possibilities]

I really like Peter Dinklage. The only thing that might get me to watch Cyrano is that he's in it. 

At the same time, though, I'd like to see more media featuring disabled people, where our characters aren't played for tragedy, insecurity, rejection, or other varieties of misery and angst. Just let us be people. Let us be part of stories that don't revolve around oppression.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

At the same time, though, I'd like to see more media featuring disabled people, where our characters aren't played for tragedy, insecurity, rejection, or other varieties of misery and angst. Just let us be people. Let us be part of stories that don't revolve around oppression.

On the topic of disability in film; I was thinking about the How to Train Your Dragon franchise and how it's one of the few animated children's films with a disabled lead character. Are there other films with disabled characters in leading roles for children?

The only other animated ones I can think of are Quest for Camelot (one lead is blind), and Finding Dory (mental disability).

I know there are others that are not animated, but usually they are centered around the disability. Anyone got titles to recommend?

[topanga]

On 1/25/2022 at 11:04 PM, possibilities said:

People with dwarfism can be cast in most roles. There's no reason to limit them to roles specifically branded as dwarves.

On 1/25/2022 at 11:57 PM, Dani said:

Of course but will they? There’s also no reason to limit roles for any minority other than racism, sexism, ableism…. Hollywood is a horrible industry. They need to be better at inclusive casting across the board but we are where we are and reclaiming traditionally hurtful roles has it’s own benefits. 

I ran across a TV show (not a movie) called Kings of Napa about a black family that owns a vineyard in Napa Valley. The oldest brother is the CFO and happens to be a dwarf. His stature is mentioned once or twice but isn't a focus of the show or the character itself. 

 

[Trini]

"Soul of a Nation Presents: Screen Queens Rising" - special airing on ABC this Thursday:

Quote

ABC News' groundbreaking "Soul of a Nation" returns with the special "Screen Queens Rising," exploring how Black actresses, a historically overlooked and under-valued group in Hollywood, have in recent years begun to ascend to the top echelons of entertainment and American culture. The special examines how Black actresses of Hollywood have become power brokers and the iconic moments and roles have paved the way for them today.

The special, hosted by "ABC News Live Prime" anchor Linsey Davis and ABC News senior national affairs correspondent Deborah Roberts, includes Roberts' interview with actress Tessa Thompson and ABC News' "GMA3: What You Need to Know" co-anchor T.J. Holmes' interview with actress and director Halle Berry. The hour also features interviews with actresses Debbie Allen, Jackée Harry, Marla Gibbs and Regina Hall, and entertainment reporters who look back at the first milestones for Black women in Hollywood, discussing the triumphs, the obstacles and those who blazed the trail. The special includes the return of the fan-favorite "In the Kitchen" discussion moderated by "The View" co-host Sunny Hostin.

"Soul of a Nation Presents: Screen Queens Rising" airs Thursday, Feb. 3 (8:00-9:00 p.m. EST), on ABC.

 

 

[methodwriter85]

It's my fantasy that when Zendaya wins an Oscar, she'll give a shout out to Halle. God, that would be a lovely moment.

[Trini]

I thought this was an interesting twitter thread about how Japanese characters are cast and depicted in Hollywood:

https://twitter.com/Yuki_Mats/status/1497655600830103553

 

Unrolled thread:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1497655600830103553.html

 

I think I knew in general that Japan is more multicultural than most people think, but I've never really thought about if that had been reflected in the media. It was also interesting to me that this homogenization is a thing in Japan itself.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Trini

[Trini]

Still not 100% convinced this isn't another 'magical negro' story [see; my previous post], but Three Thousand Years of Longing has a trailer now:

 

At the very least, it looks like there's more going on than just the Magical Negro trope.

[methodwriter85]

The story of Maya Lin could make an interesting 90-minute t.v. movie on Hulu or something. She was the Chinese-American student who faced racist backlash after her design for Vietnam War memorial was announced in 1981.

 

[xaxat]

On 5/20/2022 at 7:04 PM, Trini said:

Still not 100% convinced this isn't another 'magical negro' story [see; my previous post], but Three Thousand Years of Longing has a trailer now:

At the very least, it looks like there's more going on than just the Magical Negro trope.

I have some faith in George Miller. He managed to take his Mad Max franchise and turn it on its head with Furiosa.

ETA In addition, the title and scenes from the trailer seem to imply that the story is more about the genie than Tilda Swinton's character.

Edited May 25, 2022 by xaxat

[Danny Franks]

So I'm watching Top Gun for the first time since I was a teenager and I have to wonder, did anyone ever ask Val Kilmer what his internal story for Iceman was? Because, holy shit, does he play it like he's desperately in love with Maverick.

I don't mean this in the old 'Top Gun is homoerotic because there are dudes in locker rooms together' way. Kilmer genuinely plays every scene like he's the love interest in a spiky, love/hate pairing and it's so much fun to watch.

He's putting way more out there than Kelly McGillis (who, of course, later came out as gay). I would bet most people making this movie were too coked out to notice, but Kilmer is having a blast with these scenes.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Speaking of Top Gun I am confused as to why the sequel seemed to display Hollywood politics befitting 1986 rather than 2022. Obviously Kelly McGillis was not brought back for this movie, because god forbid Tom Cruise be on screen with a woman close to his age or older.  By the way, (spoiler here):

Spoiler

the movie made sure to bring back Val Kilmer - who can barely speak

- so it's obvious that kind of challenge was not an issue.  Age when it comes to women, however, was.

Asian actors Manny Jacinto, Raymond Lee, and Kara Wang were hired to be in the movie, to be blurry shapes in the background of scenes only, and completely silent.  No lines, no dialogue.

Black actors Jay Ellis, Charles Parnell, and Bashir Salahuddin, among others, were all hired to play second fiddle type roles - but nobody too important.

And every single 'important' part in the movie was played by a white actor (Besides Cruise, there's Connelly, Teller, Powell, Phoenix, Bob, and Jon Hamm).  Also, the 2022 Millennials in this movie played the song "Great Balls of Fire" and knew the words.

What a weird world this movie took place in.  

Edited June 4, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[methodwriter85]

I think Jennifer Connelly is the closest love interest to age to Tom Cruise since Cameron Diaz back in Night and Day in 2010.

Not surprised about the general conservative mood of Top Gun. They weren't really aiming for a "we're in 2022 now, let's bring out the wokeness!" type of feel. It was basically Hallmark but for straight guys. LOL

Edited June 5, 2022 by methodwriter85

[Hiyo]

Here is an interesting article related to the subject:

No, Top Gun: Maverick’s success isn’t down to being pro-America and anti-woke.

[Ms Blue Jay]

12 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I think Jennifer Connelly is the closest love interest to age to Tom Cruise since Cameron Diaz back in Night and Day in 2010.

I don't see this as a victory in anyway, considering there are several male actors who are fine with love interests the same age or older than they are.  Though, they're probably vastly mostly younger than Tom.  Chris Hemsworth is younger than Natalie Portman - just one example.   Damon Wayans Jr. is younger than Rachael Leigh Cook.  I know that was just Netflix, but it's still appreciated.  Sandra Bullock and Channing Tatum, Chris Pine and Thandie Newton.

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Here is an interesting article related to the subject:

No, Top Gun: Maverick’s success isn’t down to being pro-America and anti-woke.

I am not sure the point that this article is trying to make.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Hiyo]

Well, for one thing, the people trying to claim the success of this movie are being a wee bit misguided...

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I am not sure the point that this article is trying to make.

That the success of a movie with a primarily straight, white cast isn’t a repudiation of inclusion just like the failure of a movie without a white, male lead isn’t proof of “get woke, go broke.” That no matter how hard some people want to assign greater meaning to the success or failure of a movie the majority of audiences are not racist, sexist or homophobic and just want to be entertained. 

[proserpina65]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:05 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Also, the 2022 Millennials in this movie played the song "Great Balls of Fire" and knew the words.

I find that to be the least unbelievable part.  Interest in throwback music isn't uncommon among the millennials I know.

The rest?  Well, it's a Tom Cruise movie so I'd never expect it to be particularly inclusive, but oy.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Of course I am interested in 'throwback' music, but I don't listen to Jerry Lee Lewis and I don't know anyone who does.  That's not even my parents' generation and they are two generations older than I am.  Just my experience.

Even by the time of the ORIGINAL Top Gun when they played it, the song was already 30 years old!   Now it is 65.  And they expect me to believe some 20 somethings would randomly start singing this at a bar and know all the words.

The sad thing is that much older Tom Cruise movies than this were more inclusive, like Paula Patton and Thandie Newton playing big roles in the Mission Impossible franchise, or Cuba Gooding Jr. and Regina King in Jerry Maguire.

Of course, some are absolutely horrible for diversity, like "Oblivion" from 2013, where they specifically only auditioned beautiful, thin, young, white actresses to play opposite him.

Racists love to argue that hiring is based on merit, and only the best actor gets each part.  How can that possibly be true when only white people are allowed in the door?

Even worse, the movie was set in 2077.   Do we really think only white people will exist by then?  LOL.  I've probably complained about this before because I think it is so egregious.  

Quote

For casting the lead role of Julia opposite Cruise, the producers considered five actresses: Jessica Chastain, Olivia Wilde, Brit Marling, Noomi Rapace and Olga Kurylenko, and all five auditioned on August 27, 2011.[18]

For the other leading role, Victoria, the producers initially considered Hayley Atwell, Diane Kruger and Kate Beckinsale. The three actresses traveled to Pittsburgh to screen-test with Cruise, who was filming Jack Reacher.[24] The role finally went to Andrea Riseborough. Melissa Leo was cast at a later date as Sally.[25]

Edited June 8, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Hiyo]

Quote

I find that to be the least unbelievable part.  Interest in throwback music isn't uncommon among the millennials I know.

Maybe in the Top Gun universe, the song trended a year or so on TikTok before the events of the sequel? ;)

Edited June 8, 2022 by Hiyo

[Guest]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I find that to be the least unbelievable part.  Interest in throwback music isn't uncommon among the millennials I know.

It always surprises me how some songs will just never die. I frequently hear my 13 year old niece singing songs from decades before she was born. Most of the time she has no clue who the artist is but knows all the words. I don’t know if she knows Great Balls of Fire but it’s exactly the type of catchy upbeat song that seem to be played at sporting events so it wouldn’t surprise me. 

If that generation didn’t know it before many probably will now thanks to the movie. 

[proserpina65]

23 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Even by the time of the ORIGINAL Top Gun when they played it, the song was already 30 years old!   Now it is 65.  And they expect me to believe some 20 somethings would randomly start singing this at a bar and know all the words.

I completely believe that would happen.  I suspect the millennials I know travel in different circles.  As Dani said, it's the sort of song which tends to get played at things like baseball games.

23 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Even worse, the movie was set in 2077.   Do we really think only white people will exist by then?

Well, if some people had their way . . . but I certainly hope not.

[supposebly]

On 6/8/2022 at 10:45 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

but I don't listen to Jerry Lee Lewis and I don't know anyone who does. 

Neither do I. I know the song from the biopic Great Balls of Fire with Dennis Quaid. Granted, that's old too but about 30 years more recent.

I would imagine people also hear older music from ads, trailers and soundtracks.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I completely believe that would happen.  I suspect the millennials I know travel in different circles.  As Dani said, it's the sort of song which tends to get played at things like baseball games.

I've been to many baseball games over my life (basketball, hockey, etc.)..... hence my username.  Typical songs:  The Sweet Escape, We Will Rock You, Get Ready for This, Sandstorm, etc.  I've never heard it.  

27 minutes ago, supposebly said:

I would imagine people also hear older music from ads, trailers and soundtracks.

Yes, but every friend in this group knowing this particular song from all the same source is stretching the imagination.  And where other movie do we know this song from?  Top Gun, a movie that does not exist in this world.  😄

It was clearly only done to bring a song back from the original movie, I get the plot device.  I understand it.  I just think it's silly.

The more believable thing was that Goose showed Rooster this song in childhood and he grew up with it.  How old was Rooster when Goose died?  A baby?  

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay