Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[aradia22]

Quote

I'm pretty impressed by his apology and don't know if he's "changed", but people need to realize that the internet is forever and stop saying and doing stupid shit on there. It's easy to apologize once you got caught for being a racist jerk, but why did he say that in the first place?

I'm sure he had lawyers or PR people helping but still, that apology could have come across much worse even so. As for his judgment, I don't know what the specific video was but it's very possible he did it intentionally. There's a strain of internet person who courts disaster like that. Shane Dawson used to do full on blackface. For all the SJW types who go overboard trying to prove their wokeness, there are those who use the n-word or embrace cultural appropriation and racist ideologies. I don't recognize this kid. I'm assuming it was something more casual (because if he was a really controversial edgelord figure I don't think they would have hired him in the first place knowing that) where he said or did something he thought was OK because in his heart he doesn't think he's a hateful person. The article said he only started making videos in 2010 but he looks pretty young. A lot of these kids start very young, don't know anything about comedy, and say a lot of dumb racist and/or homophobic shit. It's laziness. It's the comedy of a school bully except it's recorded on the internet forever and broadcast out to tons of people. That's not an excuse. Plenty of kids never say heinous shit, whether or not they're being recorded. I'm just explaining why he probably said it. Part of the internet cultural exchange is a lot of people who live in insular, homogeneous communities taking BS views out into the world and realizing how hurtful and hateful people find them when they're called out for their comments for the first time. Or maybe he's just a shithead. I don't know. 

The book has been on all the bestsellers and recommended lists. I've just been saving it for when I'm in the mood for that kind of fiction. Though now that I've heard the protagonist's name... it's a bit dumb. But that's YA. 

[topanga]

27 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

The book has been on all the bestsellers and recommended lists. I've just been saving it for when I'm in the mood for that kind of fiction. Though now that I've heard the protagonist's name... it's a bit dumb. But that's YA. 

I know of a few teenagers named Starr (or Star). And that’s one of Venus Williams’s middle names. So it’s more common a name than you’d think. 

[JessePinkman]

He knew what he was doing. Why did he do it? Does he hate black people or is stereotyping and using the n-word endless hilarious to a subset of people? Who knows? Regardless it was intentional and needlessly aggressive in tone and language. It's only 11 seconds, watch below.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1622814/Old-video-shows-YouTuber-Kian-Lawley-using-N-word.html

[aradia22]

Quote

I know of a few teenagers named Starr (or Star). And that’s one of Venus Williams’s middle names. So it’s more common a name than you’d think. 

Not to get too sidetracked but I'm conservative when it comes to names. A youtuber I like recently had a baby and named her River Wren. I could not have rolled my eyes harder.

[festivus]

On 2/7/2018 at 8:43 AM, topanga said:

I know of a few teenagers named Starr (or Star). And that’s one of Venus Williams’s middle names. So it’s more common a name than you’d think. 

I know one myself. She's white. This will show my age but whenever I hear the name I always think of The Lost Boys. I wonder how many people named their kid Star because of that movie. I like the name, I think it's pretty.

[galax-arena]

I saw this trailer yesterday, I have not read the novel but it looks like a good venue for Rachel McAdams who has not had any big projects lately.

I am so excited for this movie, because I love the two Rachels and I love lesbians and I love religious angst. 

I've heard that they changed the book's ending for the movie; apparently the movie's ending is more hopeful than the book's. That's all right with me! 

[Silver Raven]

On 2/4/2018 at 1:17 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I saw this trailer yesterday, I have not read the novel but it looks like a good venue for Rachel McAdams who has not had any big projects lately. 

 

She's in the upcoming Game Night with Jaston Bateman.

[Silver Raven]

Among others, Oscar presenters will include Oscar Isaac, Lin-Manuel Miranda, Gina Rodriguez, Wes Studi, Kelly Marie Tran and Zendaya.

[JessePinkman]

How many movies with black leads can anyone think of where the female lead was darker than her male counterpart? A comment in the Black Panther thread has me pondering this. 

[Trini]

Catwoman?

Die Another Day

Monster's Ball

Something New - but this is specifically about an interracial romance, I don't know if that matters for your purposes or not.

::scrolls through Angela Bassett's resume::

What's Love Got to Do With It ?

Deliver Us from Eva

Think Like A Man

Edited February 23, 2018 by Trini

[Morrigan2575]

On 2/8/2018 at 11:44 AM, festivus said:

I know one myself. She's white. This will show my age but whenever I hear the name I always think of The Lost Boys. I wonder how many people named their kid Star because of that movie. I like the name, I think it's pretty.

That's where my mind goes too. 

[Trini]

The Princess and the Frog

[Trini]

Corrina, Corrina

[JessePinkman]

I was thinking more two black leads where the woman is darker. I should’ve clarified. Thanks though.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

I was thinking more two black leads where the woman is darker. I should’ve clarified. Thanks though.

I didn't do an exhaustive search, but it seems that films with a leads who are a black man and a black woman are not that common. Also, just from my cursory browsing of IMDB, it's amazing how even the 'lightskinned' black men (mostly bi-racial) never get paired up with anyone darker even if it's not a leading role.

I did come across a few more films with two black leads, but both leads looked close enough in skin color that I didn't feel comfortable enough to make a judgement and use them as examples.

---

About Last Night (2014)

[Trini]

Also I found this bit of randomness I'd never heard of: The Man - in which James Earl Jones becomes the first black president after an accident kills off those ahead of him; based on a novel.

[aradia22]

Quote

I was thinking more two black leads where the woman is darker. I should’ve clarified. Thanks though.

It's a weird thing to try and search and I haven't watched enough movies (I don't watch a ton of movies in general) to know. With those parameters, I'd say the best place to start is with directors who tend to make movies with black leads. Tyler Perry... Malcolm D. Lee... Spike Lee... These are probably not all going to be happy movies or healthy relationships but it's a place to start. We can have what I don't think will be a particularly fruitful debate about the relative darkness of two actors' skintones but I would guess that in general, you're more likely to see two black actors with lighter complexions in general, but particularly if they're romantically paired. There's a relatively negligible difference between Taraji P. Henson and Terence Howard and I think it's more likely for actors with lighter skintones to be cast in general so it's harder to have that debate. There's also some weird cultural stuff about how desirability is coded in society. Where Idris Elba and Morris Chestnut have darker complexions but are considered attractive while society is less accepting of women with darker complexions like Lupita Nyong'o and Viola Davis as beautiful, at least in media because it's more threatening to cultural ideals.

Also, speaking of Whoopi Goldberg... I guess technically Sister Act? Even though she didn't end up with the cop in the sequel. And I don't know if you'd consider him the lead. In the musical version it's more explicitly romantic and they play up his role.

[topanga]

19 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

How many movies with black leads can anyone think of where the female lead was darker than her male counterpart? A comment in the Black Panther thread has me pondering this. 

What was the original comment? You’ve started a great discussion in this thread. 

[JessePinkman]

7 minutes ago, topanga said:

What was the original comment? You’ve started a great discussion in this thread. 

Thanks! It was this post by @Athena.

Another one I just remembered, not a movie but Vivian on The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air was darker than Phil. At least initially. 

[Athena]

The original comment was from my friend who is black. She has watched more black films and noticed usually, even in those films, the women tend to be lighter skinned overall. There is colourism because it seemed for a long time that women of colour on the lighter side are seen as more desirable.  I have always found women like Alek Wek and Lupita N'yongo beautiful and didn't understand growing up why I could see women like Wek in editorials but not in TV or movies. Until recently women of their complexion were not cast often as romantic female leads.  Black male actors do not have this issue as much. With Lupita, Viola Davis, Danai Gurira, and other women of darker tones in more prominent roles, this is changing in the mainstream.  On TV, shows like "Orange is the New Black" demonstrate how diverse and desirable women of colour can be.

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Athena said:

  Black male actors do not have this issue as much.

Oh, for sure. When I was browsing IMDB for examples, I tried looking at a few of the more famous Black actors with long-ish resumés, and I didn't even bother with looking through Wesley Snipes', for instance, because he is very dark-skinned and I knew there wouldn't be any actress as dark, let alone darker than him that he'd be paired with. But then there are stars like Will Smith, who is more in the in the middle range of skin tones, and yet it's the exact same thing - no actress darker than him. (Again, this is from my quick search; there are lots of actors I didn't look at.)

---

But also I think Hollywood is afraid of having two(or more) Black people as leads of a film, because then there's the perception (of some) that it makes it a "Black" film, and therefore will make less money, be less appealing to non-Black audiences, etc. I'm so happy for Black Panther* proving them wrong.
 

*(which admittedly, has the advantage of being a big-budget superhero movie from a studio known for such films)

[JessePinkman]

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

But also I think Hollywood is afraid of having two(or more) Black people as leads of a film, because then there's the perception (of some) that it makes it a "Black" film, and therefore will make less money, be less appealing to non-Black audiences, etc.

Your post above featuring The Princess and the Frog reminded me of this. Not even a cartoon could have two black leads. It's rubbed me the wrong way since that movie came out that her prince was some vaguely brown non-black dude.

[Silver Raven]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Oh, for sure. When I was browsing IMDB for examples, I tried looking at a few of the more famous Black actors with long-ish resumés, and I didn't even bother with looking through Wesley Snipes', for instance, because he is very dark-skinned and I knew there wouldn't be any actress as dark, let alone darker than him that he'd be paired with. But then there are stars like Will Smith, who is more in the in the middle range of skin tones, and yet it's the exact same thing - no actress darker than him. (Again, this is from my quick search; there are lots of actors I didn't look at.)

---

But also I think Hollywood is afraid of having two(or more) Black people as leads of a film, because then there's the perception (of some) that it makes it a "Black" film, and therefore will make less money, be less appealing to non-Black audiences, etc. I'm so happy for Black Panther* proving them wrong.
 

*(which admittedly, has the advantage of being a big-budget superhero movie from a studio known for such films)

Wasn't Aunjanue Ellis Wesley Snipes's costar in Game of Death? I haven't seen the movie, is she a love interest?

[aradia22]

Quote

Your post above featuring The Princess and the Frog reminded me of this. Not even a cartoon could have two black leads. It's rubbed me the wrong way since that movie came out that her prince was some vaguely brown non-black dude.

As a romance novel reader, I get it. It's much easier to have a fictional prince from a made up country than deal with figuring out how to make things make sense for a real-ish place. They put a lot of thought into Black Panther and Wakanda isn't even real. They weren't going to do that for TPATF when the point of that movie was Tiana and New Orleans and not the other place. 

[JessePinkman]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

As a romance novel reader, I get it. It's much easier to have a fictional prince from a made up country than deal with figuring out how to make things make sense for a real-ish place. They put a lot of thought into Black Panther and Wakanda isn't even real. They weren't going to do that for TPATF when the point of that movie was Tiana and New Orleans and not the other place. 

I don't understand...they turn into frogs? It's all fictional. He could be a fake prince and black all at the same time.

[aradia22]

@JessePinkman Fictional worlds still have to be thought through. They invested their time in other places (for example, questioning the princess ideal with the blond character). It's easier to keep inventing fake princes than respectfully figure out how to portray a prince from an African or Caribbean nation if that isn't the project of the movie. To take a romance novel example, romance novels love making up princes from vague Middle Eastern countries because there's a history of fetishizing/erotic exoticism around sheikhs but obviously real world geopolitical concerns and a capital "P" problematic can of worms gets opened up if you pick a real country.

[JessePinkman]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

@JessePinkman Fictional worlds still have to be thought through. They invested their time in other places (for example, questioning the princess ideal with the blond character). It's easier to keep inventing fake princes than respectfully figure out how to portray a prince from an African or Caribbean nation if that isn't the project of the movie. To take a romance novel example, romance novels love making up princes from vague Middle Eastern countries because there's a history of fetishizing/erotic exoticism around sheikhs but obviously real world geopolitical concerns and a capital "P" problematic can of worms gets opened up if you pick a real country.

Why does he have to be from some researched place in Africa or the Caribbean? I’m just asking for the dude to be unambiguously brown. The same way Prince Charminb is just some white dude from a country with a monarchy.

[aradia22]

Maybe that would work for you but it was the last gasp of 2D animation and people already complained when she was originally a maid, when her name was Maddy, that she spends most of the movie as a frog, etc. etc. I get it. Obviously it's more loaded to have an "unambiguously brown dude." That's why we have a Race and Ethnicity thread. I'm not saying it's right. I am saying there's no point in purposely being obtuse. 

[Ohwell]

On 1/29/2018 at 12:26 PM, topanga said:

Jordan Peele addressed this head-on when Samuel L. Jackson criticized the fact that another Brit was being cast over a black American actor. Peele said that when he started auditioning actors for Get Out, he did plan to cast an American. But Daniel's audition blew him away, and he couldn't imagine the role of Chris being played by anyone else. 

While I liked Daniel in the role, I find it hard to believe that Peele couldn't have found a black American actor who would have been just as good, or better.  I think Peele just got Daniel cheaper.  

I don't even like Samuel L. that much as an actor, but I found his comment to be spot on.

[JessePinkman]

21 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Maybe that would work for you but it was the last gasp of 2D animation and people already complained when she was originally a maid, when her name was Maddy, that she spends most of the movie as a frog, etc. etc. I get it. Obviously it's more loaded to have an "unambiguously brown dude." That's why we have a Race and Ethnicity thread. I'm not saying it's right. I am saying there's no point in purposely being obtuse. 

I don’t think I’m the one being obtuse here but you know what? Bygones.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 1:46 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I did think it was a shame that she’d already revealed that Newt had a wife on Pottermore because he and Jacob could have been a great couple (sorry Queenie!). 

I thought the same thing while I watched FB the first time, but I like Jacob and Queenie, too. Not so much a fan of Newt and Tina though. I know it's not going to happen at all, but I would've liked a slow-burn overarching romance between Newt and Credence though considering Newt loves his FBs and Credence is essentially a human "FB." :P

Anyway, I saw a commercial for Love, Simon for the first time. I'm not confident enough to say if it'll be any good or not, but I'm looking forward to it in any case.

Edited February 25, 2018 by TheGreenKnight

[methodwriter85]

On 1/21/2018 at 6:20 PM, starri said:

Love, Simon dropped another trailer.

 

I am glad the movie has an openly gay director, but it bums me out that, like CMBYN and BBM before it, we have an adaptation of another gay story written by a straight person.  And Colton Haynes has a small part, and Keiynan Lonsdale is openly bisexual, so at least there are two openly queer people in the cast.  So, progress, maybe?

Teen and gay also used to mean an Automatic R so that's also progress. I still remember the director of GBF being pissed that it got Rated R.

GBF Director Blames R Rating on Gay Double Standard

PG-13 gay teen American romantic comedies definitely seem to be on the lean side.

Anyway, I saw a really interesting obscure British indie called Unconditional. It's hard to find and it's a story about two twins (one boy, one girl) who come across a charismatic loan shark named Liam. Liam seems to be interested in the sister Kristen, but then he takes out the brother Owen for a drink. One thing leads to another, and they begin a relationship, just with one catch- because Liam is straight, Owen must be dressed up as a girl and be called Kristen. It's a pretty interesting look into the psyche of the characters. It's got budget limitations and this feels more like a series of vignettes than a full comprehensive movie, but I found it to be genuinely moving.

[Raja]

On 2/23/2018 at 9:19 AM, JessePinkman said:

Thanks! It was this post by @Athena.

Another one I just remembered, not a movie but Vivian on The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air was darker than Phil. At least initially. 

Well if TV and not a movie, the original Lionel from The Jeffersons Mike Evens from All In The Family was lighter than his bride with a white father Jenny. The replacement Lionel, Damon Evens seemed darker than Berlinda Tolbert.

[starri]

11 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

GBF Director Blames R Rating on Gay Double Standard

I'd forgotten about that.  GBF is such an inoffensive little movie.  

[methodwriter85]

4 hours ago, starri said:

I'd forgotten about that.  GBF is such an inoffensive little movie.  

Yeah. No one even has sex in that one, right? Both of the gay besties turn down the closeted hot Mormon jock. Meanwhile, I would have jumped in bed with that guy so quick....(I still have residual fantasies of having sex with closeted Mormon jock because of Latter Days.) That one went with the apparently happy ending of "friendship, yay!" instead of the guys finding someone, which I could appreciate.

Geography Club apparently managed an PG-13 rating but it doesn't look like it goes with the happy ending- something probably more similar to the ending of Get Real, which was my introduction to gay films and the message of "don't fall in love with closeted hot guys."

I'm having hopes Love, Simon will be like a John Hughes movie for the gay set. I'm so tired of gay movies always going for the downer ending. That's one thing I really appreciated about Were the World Mine. We had two gay teens fall for each other, and it DIDN'T end in either tragedy or the realization that they weren't right for each other or some other reason they don't end up together.

I really want an adaption of Openly Straight but I can see it getting fucked up badly, especially in regards to how Ben doesn't actually identify as gay/bi.

Edited February 25, 2018 by methodwriter85

[starri]

7 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Yeah. No one even has sex in that one, right? Both of the gay besties turn down the closeted hot Mormon jock. Meanwhile, I would have jumped in bed with that guy so quick....(I still have residual fantasies of having sex with closeted Mormon jock because of Latter Days.) That one went with the apparently happy ending of "friendship, yay!" instead of the guys finding someone, which I c

There's a scene where the besties drunkenly start kissing, and it's left at least a bit ambiguous if anything else happened.

The other nice thing is both of them, and the hot Mormon jock are all played by out actors. Yes, that's kind of a pet peeve of mine.

[methodwriter85]

15 minutes ago, starri said:

There's a scene where the besties drunkenly start kissing, and it's left at least a bit ambiguous if anything else happened.

The other nice thing is both of them, and the hot Mormon jock are all played by out actors. Yes, that's kind of a pet peeve of mine.

Taylor Frey is married to Kyle Dean Massey, lucky guy. (I had a mild obsession with Next to Normal for a little bit. KDM doesn't do it for me as much as Aarton Tveit but I still think he's awesome.) His family seems super-supportive of him which is awesome. I still have very vivid memories of watching Elder Aaron at the conversion camp in Latter Days and knowing that shit is/was happening for real to people.

Speaking of, I kind of want to see the Miseducation of Cameron Post, but I honestly find Chloe Grace Moretz to be "Fetch" in human form, so I'm not sure I want to. It's getting good buzz so good for her, though.

Edited February 26, 2018 by methodwriter85

[starri]

The first, VERY positive, review for Love, Simon.

[starri]

A second rave.

[Trini]

Just thinking of the company Black Panther  joins:

Movies based on comic books with a Black lead:

Steel (1997), Spawn (1997), Blade (1998), Blade II (2002), Blade:Trinity (2004), Catwoman* (2004), Men in Black* (1997) and its sequels in 2002, and 2012.

*The characters were not Black in the comics, however.

"Superhero" as genre can be pretty broad, so these next few are the most "comic book-y": Hancock (2008), and then comedies The Meteor Man (1993) and Blankman (1994).

Any others to add?

---

Also wanted to mention A Wrinkle in Time (2018) here, which may be only the second sci-fi feature film to have a Black girl as the lead. Home (2015) was the first. There's also The Girl with All the Gifts (2016), but I'm not sure if the girl there was a lead or not.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Trini

[xaxat]

I totally forgot about Steel.

[AimingforYoko]

2 hours ago, xaxat said:

I totally forgot about Steel.

Shaq thanks you for that.

[Athena]

[Wiendish Fitch]

3 hours ago, Athena said:

 

I love Pop Culture Detective's videos, and this one? Bang on. Even though I adore Top Hat, my man Fred Astaire is totally guilty of stalker-ish behavior in that one (and a ton of a other movies, let's face it). I rationalize this by saying he's the one actor I'll allow to behave that way in movies.

 

And I do like that they address the double standard about how stalking in film is seen as inappropriate, creepy, or just plain wrong... when a woman does it.

[aradia22]

Quote

Even though I adore Top Hat, my man Fred Astaire is totally guilty of stalker-ish behavior in that one (and a ton of a other movies, let's face it). I rationalize this by saying he's the one actor I'll allow to behave that way in movies.

I get it, though. I haven't watched a Fred and Ginger movie in a while but even though I noticed the behavior, the way it was portrayed didn't bother me. Whereas I've always had a problem with the way Gene Kelly behaves in movies even though the movie condones his behavior. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

21 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

I get it, though. I haven't watched a Fred and Ginger movie in a while but even though I noticed the behavior, the way it was portrayed didn't bother me. Whereas I've always had a problem with the way Gene Kelly behaves in movies even though the movie condones his behavior. 

Yeah, I agree. Kelly is especially obnoxious in An American in Paris and The Pirate. As for Fred, probably his most appalling stalker-ish actions are in The Sky's the Limit and Yolanda and the Thief.

 

I loved how The Big Sick was used as an example of a positive antidote to the "stalking for love" trope. I appreciated how

Spoiler

when Emily puts her foot down and breaks up with Kumail again, he respects her wishes. And in the end when she surprises him at the New York comedy club, she's making her presence known, and sends the message loud and clear that she wants to give their relationship another chance. Yeah, she followed him across the country, but it actually comes off as a genuinely romantic gesture, not pathetic stalking.

[Spartan Girl]

That video was good, but oy I hate when I have to look at movies I like differently.  

17 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I loved how The Big Sick was used as an example of a positive antidote to the "stalking for love" trope. I appreciated how

  Hide contents

when Emily puts her foot down and breaks up with Kumail again, he respects her wishes. And in the end when she surprises him at the New York comedy club, she's making her presence known, and sends the message loud and clear that she wants to give their relationship another chance. Yeah, she followed him across the country, but it actually comes off as a genuinely romantic gesture, not pathetic stalking.

I liked that too.  I also liked that he took her aside to speak to her in private.  Public romantic gestures are nice and all that, but they can be embarrassing.

[aradia22]

I finally watched the Stalking for Love video. I appreciated a relatively thorough (for a 20+ minute video) look at the subject but I rolled my eyes a little. A lot is made about wokeness these days. Some of us have been awake, my dude. 

Also, I felt like there were a lot of examples but it was low on critique and analysis. 

[Spartan Girl]

I wish someone would do a video on the double standards of cheating. I was watching Forgetting Sarah Marshall the other day, and the part where Sarah rants about how she did everything to save her and Peter's relationship really makes me angry because it's basically her trying to justify her cheating on Peter for a whole year before finally breaking up with him. The movie frames it like we're supposed to feel sorry for her. Oh, but if she was a guy, people would have no problem calling that bullshit.

Instead of just leaving with his tail between his legs, Peter should have been allowed to say something like, "Okay, maybe I was 'too stupid' to notice it wasn't working out. But you know what? You should have just broken up with me sooner instead of stringing me along while you were fucking another guy behind my back!" And THEN leave.

[HunterHunted]

Really? It was pretty clear to me that while Peter is a dork and a bit of a sad sack, Sarah is hateful. I recall a decent number of reviews talking about Sarah being a diva, a mean girl, and a woman who sold out for Hollywood success. I think it does have a slightly lighter touch by not making Sarah completely monstrous.

I think Segel understands that you have make it seem like there was a version of Sarah that could have legitimately fallen in love with Peter. Additionally, that a combination of Sarah feeling herself as a celebrity and Peter's complacency soured the relationship. And that there is part of Peter that didn't really try to make himself or Sarah happy. I think that's why the biggest emotional beat in the conclusion is his puppet opera. Yes, he misses Mila Kunis' character, which they admit at the end, but she gives him time to be appreciated for his work.

I don't think it's as much a double standard as Segel wanting a more nuanced view of a bad relationship. Sarah and Peter were both bad partners in different ways.

Edited March 4, 2018 by HunterHunted