Super Social Analysis: Gender, Race, Ethnicity, and LGBT in Movies

[ApathyMonger]

Based on the trailer, Ghost in the Shell looks like it may be the first-ever major US movie (as in one released in 1,500+ theatres) with a queer female lead character.

I'm not convinced the movie will be good, but it's something at least.

[galax-arena]

Not for me. The whitewashing* already left a bitter enough taste in my mouth, and as someone who could count the number of prominent Asian lesbian characters in the media on one hand and is always desperately on the lookout for more, the idea that we could have had an Asian female LGBT lead in a major movie, only to get Scarlett freakin Johansson, pisses me off even more. Gonna hope her character is straight so I'm only semi-pissed instead of fully pissed. 

* ETA: As a preemptive strike, no, her character being a cyborg is not an excuse! 

Edited November 14, 2016 by galax-arena

[feverfew]

As of right now, I'm pissed. Because I thought Disney/Lucasfilm were finally on the right track with the new Han Solo movie (Glover! WoC female lead), and then we get this:  Emilia Clarke will star in the new Star Wars Han Solo spin-off

What the heck happened? I mean, I think both Zoë Kravitz and Tessa Thompson can be rather hit-and-miss, but ... really? Clarke? Miss-my-eyebrows-does-all-my-acting-for-me? If anybody throws out the whole "she was the best for the role"-excuse, I will throw something!

[Joe]

15 minutes ago, feverfew said:

As of right now, I'm pissed. Because I thought Disney/Lucasfilm were finally on the right track with the new Han Solo movie (Glover! WoC female lead), and then we get this:  Emilia Clarke will star in the new Star Wars Han Solo spin-off

What the heck happened? I mean, I think both Zoë Kravitz and Tessa Thompson can be rather hit-and-miss, but ... really? Clarke? Miss-my-eyebrows-does-all-my-acting-for-me? If anybody throws out the whole "she was the best for the role"-excuse, I will throw something!

It's possible they'll have two prominent women in the movie. Here's hoping.

[absnow54]

It's getting frustrating that every female lead of a Star Wars movie looks.exactly.the.same. I'm also hoping that there just happens to be more than one female lead in the Han Solo movie (blasphemous, I know!)

[Joe]

47 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

It's getting frustrating that every female lead of a Star Wars movie looks.exactly.the.same. I'm also hoping that there just happens to be more than one female lead in the Han Solo movie (blasphemous, I know!)

But what if she wears the Dany wig? Also, her eyes are blue instead of brown. Splitting hairs, I know. :)

[Silver Raven]

I'm confused.  Are white women not allowed to star in movies any more?

[vibeology]

12 minutes ago, Silver Raven said:

I'm confused.  Are white women not allowed to star in movies any more?

Sure they are but we have now had 7 Star Wars (with an eight only a month or so away) movies and the female leads in all of them have been white women. Part of this is connected to the narrative. I would expect Leia and her mother Padme to be the same race and since there is speculation about Rey's relationships to either the Skywalker or Solo families, I also expect that she'll look enough like Leia to be believable as either her daughter or niece. But seeing as these movies have been full of white women, it would have been nice to have the lead of the Han film be a woc since there should be no need for her to look like she might be part of the family line.

The complaint isn't about movies in general but about this franchise where women have been underrepresented in general and woc have been basically invisible.

[Silver Raven]

If POC played all the "white" roles in movies.

 

[topanga]

9 hours ago, Silver Raven said:

If POC played all the "white" roles in movies.

Loved it! I especially loved the quotes from critics: "Where are all of the white people?" and "Is this how people of color feel when they watch...everything?"

[starri]

On 11/11/2016 at 0:10 PM, galax-arena said:

ETA: Wait, dude's wearing an Ed Hardy shirt? Never mind. starri, what's wrong with you?? 

I can't excuse the Ed Hardy shirt, but still...8/10, would bang.

Off the subject completely, I was really hoping in the ten years since Brokeback Mountain, we'd have more/better gay cinema.  But until Moonlight, has there really been much?  I guess Milk, but that was a biopic, so not quite the same thing. I mean, things from the US, foreign films have done okay.  It's just the same disposable crap, albeit occasionally with higher production values.

Edited November 24, 2016 by starri

[vibeology]

There was Carol last year. It was pretty successful and mainstream. I personally didn't love it, but it has its fans.

[JBC344]

On ‎11‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 9:39 PM, Silver Raven said:

If POC played all the "white" roles in movies.

 

 

My favorite line from "Morgan Freeman";  "What am I supposed to do?  Compete in a fair and equal economy".  Greatest line ever. 

[starri]

23 hours ago, vibeology said:

There was Carol last year. It was pretty successful and mainstream. I personally didn't love it, but it has its fans.

Forgot about that one.  With straight people playing gay people and it getting completely ignored for Best Picture and Director.

[xaxat]

Cliff Curtis really is the Anthony Quinn of this era.

[maraleia]

I would highly recommend Summertime (a French lesbian movie) that's currently airing on Netflix. It was sensual and romantic with a great story behind it.

[slf]

So Bernardo Bertolucci finally fessed up that Maria Schneider's account of that scene in Last Tango in Paris was true, so of course now people believe it. Fuck all the directors, actors, and crew members who've watched women exploited and assaulted on movie sets and did nothing. Bertolucci and Brando got career boosts from that. But poor Schneider, had that happen to her and then had to listen to people fawn over it and talk about how artistic it was. And it defined her career.

This is why assault scenes in movies (or shows) always make me cringe, especially if the movie was written/directed by a man. Did the actress fully consent, what was the motivation for including the scene, etc.?

Edited December 4, 2016 by slf

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 11/11/2016 at 0:20 AM, Silver Raven said:

One of the love interests (I don't know if he's the one she winds up with or not) in The Edge of Seventeen is Chinese Canadian actor Hayden Szeto.

So.

I tried to go to the theatre to support this movie and the Asian (Canadian!) male love interest.

I ended up being so consumed with anger.  Why?  Because Hailee, in the film, is given a white twin brother, and two white parents.  I couldn't handle it. I was consumed with my negative thoughts through more than half of the film.

I'm sick of this shit.  Actors who have multiethnic backgrounds are often orphaned, adopted, or given white parents in Hollywood movies.  Why?  My guess is so that no one in the audience has to see the reality of their backgrounds and ethnicities  Anything, anything but let the main star have 1, or god forbid TWO!!!, parents of colour.

Rashida Jones was the love interest in I Love You Man.  Her parents CONVENIENTLY didn't exist, I think her character was orphaned, and she had nobody to walk her down the aisle at her wedding.  God forbid somebody in the audience would have to witness the horror of Paul Rudd marrying a black woman!

If you are wondering, Hailee's background is part Jewish, part black, part Filipino.  She plays a fake white person in this movie.

Hayden Szeto was great.

I'm not even going to touch on the movie trailer I saw before the film.  Martin Scorsese's "Silence", which looks to be a bunch of Hot White Men at the Moment who save some Japanese people.

"Fences" with Denzel and Viola looks awesome.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

http://www.theestablishment.co/2016/12/01/how-to-make-white-movies/

[aradia22]

Quote

Affleck is also, according to critics, talented. As Amy Zimmerman pointed out in her piece for the Daily Beast, audiences can be incredibly forgiving of flawed male auteurs, especially if the media is not instructing them to be critical. Affleck will likely have a long, storied career like Woody Allen’s, and industry publications will never force him to answer for his actions like they did Nate Parker. Parker’s Oscar hopes for The Birth of a Nation were quashed earlier this year when outlets began asking him about the fact that he was acquitted of campus rape in 1999. Affleck has all the privilege and protection that Parker did not, which is why, although their cases are not completely analogous, their Oscar journeys have played out so differently. Parker’s career is likely over, while Affleck’s is on the rise.

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/why-the-casey-affleck-sex-harassment-allegations-wont-stick.html

[Silver Raven]

Quote

If you are wondering, Hailee's background is part Jewish, part black, part Filipino.  She plays a fake white person in this movie.

 

Her cousin, True O'Brien, played white character Paige Larson on Days of Our Lives (for which she won a Daytime Emmy Award).  I don't know what mix of ethnicities True is, but it was believed throughout her appearance on the show, that she was white.  It was only after her character was killed off, was it revealed that her father was Hispanic.

[xaxat]

I'm kind of cheering for the mummy to defeat the white people "stealing" an Egyptian antiquity out of the country.

That's so 19th century. . . 

[Silver Raven]

The Hollywood Reporter decided to have a conversation about race and gender in animation, and invited seven white guys to talk about it.

[topanga]

1 hour ago, Silver Raven said:

The Hollywood Reporter decided to have a conversation about race and gender in animation, and invited seven white guys to talk about it.

Unreal. And the sad part is reading quotes from the directors saying things like, "we went to a Saudi Arabia convention in LA to learn about the Middle East" or "We didn't know anything about China so we Googled it." Those were sound bites, of course, but I didn't detect any sense of concern or request or even questioning of their actions. I know it takes confidence to be a director, but it's as if these guys are saying that if they did it, it must be right. 

And no one else questioned the make-up of this panel, not even the participants themselves?

[ChelseaNH]

Steven Yuen of The Walking Dead still has to audition for bit parts: http://www.vulture.com/2016/12/bobby-lee-and-steven-yeun-auditioned-for-5-lines.html

[galax-arena]

Margaret Cho got a call from Tilda Swinton over Doctor Strange controversy: "I felt like a house Asian."

Oh my god, this is ridiculous. She and Margaret aren't friends; according to the article, Tilda got in touch with Margaret through Alex Bornstein, so they don't even know each other. Who does that?? If Tilda really wants to learn, get on the Internet like everybody else. Or maybe reach out to an Asian media advocacy group because at least they're in the business of educating ignorant people. (I know Margaret said it was okay for Alex to give out her number, but it's still silly.)

I guess this means Tilda has no Asian friends, which is why she had to bother a complete stranger and couldn't fall back on "my Asian friend said it was okay." Margaret says they got into a long fight about it, after which Tilda told her not to tell anybody. LOL, but you know that if Margaret had validated her, Tilda would have jumped at the chance to bring up their conversation to the press.

ETA: Tilda provided Jezebel with the  correspondence she had with Margaret. First thing that jumps out at me is that Margaret acted like they had a phone conversation, but it was really over email. I mean... potayto, potahto, I guess, but still. The situation's weird enough without her having to embellish stuff. And it makes me wonder if Margaret was mischaracterizing other stuff (can't read the emails right now). 

Edited December 16, 2016 by galax-arena

[raezen]

The film Passengers is getting some scathing reviews. So far none of the top critics like it and even a 'fresh' review had a statement saying "If you aren't nauseated by the ethics" you might enjoy it. The question of ethics being that more than some of the reviewers think the plot promotes rape culture. 

And yes, a lot of the reviews will have spoilers but the main disappointing element of the plot was in its original plot summary ,  so I don't know how peoplefeel about that for spoilers.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/passengers_2016

[Athena]

6 hours ago, galax-arena said:

I guess this means Tilda has no Asian friends, which is why she had to bother a complete stranger and couldn't fall back on "my Asian friend said it was okay." Margaret says they got into a long fight about it, after which Tilda told her not to tell anybody. LOL, but you know that if Margaret had validated her, Tilda would have jumped at the chance to bring up their conversation to the press.

ETA: Tilda provided Jezebel with the  correspondence she had with Margaret. First thing that jumps out at me is that Margaret acted like they had a phone conversation, but it was really over email. I mean... potayto, potahto, I guess, but still. The situation's weird enough without her having to embellish stuff. And it makes me wonder if Margaret was mischaracterizing other stuff (can't read the emails right now). 

I am Asian. I love Tilda and have been a fan of hers for many years. This is probably the only big blemish in her public life that I've seen. In her defense, I don't think it means Tilda has no Asian friends, but I can see her logic in reaching out to an Asian American who was the the most vocal about the casting. I think Tilda was willing to listen and open the dialogue. However, there is something that many visible minorities hit when they discuss these topics: the other party has a big blind spot. You can't simply explain what it feels like to be sidelined, overlooked, or typecasted due to your other ethnicity. I think Tilda and many other people try to understand, but most of the time, they honestly never get it. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes and all that, but it is very difficult when you haven't had to be hit with that over and over like some of us have.

As for how Margaret Cho looks in this, I get her frustration. Don't like that she embellished or mischaracterized things, but that seems typical of her personality as well.

[gator12]

I was turn off by the Passengers film back in the summer when I first read the synopsis. 

[angora]

Having read the emails, I'd say Cho embellished things, but I can also see how the two women could have come away having very different takes on the conversation.  Both are very polite throughout, so I can understand the hold on - that's NOT what happened! reaction from Swinton's camp, but it doesn't take much of a stretch to believe that Cho was doing everything in her power to be "diplomatic" all the while shaking her head in are you KIDDING me with this shit?

And personally, even though it's not really as Cho described it, I still don't think Swinton comes off very well.  Her whole I don't social media, so I don't even know what's going ON, but there's this thing, I guess, can you explain it to me? in her initial email feels disingenuous.  Her only reference to the controversy is that the "diversity debate" has come to Doctor Strange - not even mentioning it in connection with her character.  She never says "Asian," "whitewashing," or even "casting," and Cho has to open her own email with, well you see, the white female character you're playing was an Asian male in the comics.  If she was emailing Cho out of the blue to talk about it, clearly she had some idea.  If she was "told that [Cho was] aware of this," presumably she could have asked the same people who told her that to explain the basics of the controversy and then demonstrated to Cho that she was at least aware of the issue even if she didn't fully get why it was such a big deal, ie, the LONG history of whitewashing in Asian roles. 

In subsequent emails, she brings up Marvel's defense that the character in the comics was too stereotypical and there was no way it could be updated in a thoughtful way, and they couldn't have tried casting an Asian woman instead because it would've been impossible for the character to be anything other than a Dragon Lady (whatever,) so she evidently does have SOME idea what's going on.  She also points out that she already made it clear to the public that the character as played by her isn't SUPPOSED to be Asian (ie, it's not a yellowface situation,) which she considers "the most significant and damaging misunderstanding out there" - why do so many actors seem to think that whitewashing is only racist if it involves a Mickey Rooney makeup job?

Overall, while Swinton says she's there to listen and not talk, it doesn't really feel like that to me.  Again, she and Cho never get visibly heated throughout the exchange, but I can totally see Cho reading these emails and feeling, as she says, like the "house Asian."

[Ms Blue Jay]

What many women and minorities point out on social media: it's not their (unpaid) job to explain facts, patriarchy, oppression to you - it's just not.

[vibeology]

The whole thing is awful from Swinton's side and anything Cho said that is off, I give her a pass because come the fuck on, Tilda. She doesn't know Cho but reaches out to her to deal with the controversy rather than just read the 100s of articles online about it? She instead expects Cho to take time to explain why its upsetting that a white lady got cast in a role that had been originally conceived as Asian? That's garbage.

Tilda might not participate in social media, but anyone can look at Twitter, account or no. There's no excuse for her not doing her own reading on the topic. Google isn't a secret. I can't blame her for wanting the part; its a good, complex part but sometimes you have to sit back and realize that not everything is for you. And it's on her, and me and other white people to do the work on this one because we're the ones who have it easy. (Or, at least, easier since intersectionality is a thing.)

It's not hard to figure out why this matters. Representation matters. I say this having just seen Rogue One this weekend and it reminded me of the literal tears 30 year old me cried last year when I saw Force Awakens and Rey holding that lightsaber. (And yes, I had Leia and I guess Padme, though she was awful, but none of those women got a lightsaber.) Representation matters and in this huge movie, having more Asian representation was important, especially considering how heavily the film borrowed from various Asian cultures to create it's visual look. There's nothing wrong with saying "I got that one wrong. I screwed up. I have learned x,y and z and I will do better" provided you actually do better going forward. Tilda seems to be comfortable with the "I will do better" part but doesn't want to own where she went wrong in the first place.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Margaret was put in a lose-lose situation.  She's not Mr. Miyagi and this is not Karate Kid.

Did Tilda really complain to Margaret that it's hard for her to find roles as a 55 year old Scottish woman, or was that just some sarcastic cleverness on my Twitter feed?

Everyone on social media said that "San Junipero", a Season 3 episode of Black Mirror, is of the best television episodes this year. I finally watched it, and I agree, that it was (I really preferred it over "Nosedive", which I didn't like as much).  But every time I see Mackenzie Davis I can't help but think that she was cast as a person who was Korean in the novel that the movie "The Martian" was based on.  Starring Matt "The Damonsplainer" Damon himself.  The character's name is Mindy Park for crying out loud.  Not Mindy Jessica Parker.  They didn't even bother to change the character's name, either.

People who defend whitewashing of movies, or the fact that Oscars go to white people mostly, or who are against the Ghostbusters remake, always use the same excuse:  "Casting should be based on merit, not for diversity reasons."

Why the fuck was Mackenzie Davis cast in that movie as a Korean woman then?  She was the best actor for the part?  I don't even remember if she got any lines!  She was really so extremely talented that she couldn't be ignored, instead of the billions of Asian women out there to play a VERY SMALL PART?  No.  The reality is, the casting director was uncomfortable having an Asian face play that role, period.  They wanted the faces to look 'familiar' which means white.  And now that the movie has made a billion dollars, this can just be used to reinforce the belief that white faces sell movie tickets.

I also happened to look up the Wikipedia article for the movie "Oblivion" because I hadn't seen it yet.  A movie starring Tom Cruise, and two white actresses:  Olga Kurylenko (Russian) and Andrea Riseborough (British).  In that article the casting process was outlined.   Basically, a dozen white women were screen-tested against Cruise, and I guess the casting directors then picked whoever they thought 'worked the best' with Tom Cruise on screen.

IS THAT hiring based on fucking merit?!?!?!?  Non-white women are not even considered here, and I see no mention of acting ability being a factor in the casting here, either.

Quote

Tom Cruise had expressed interest in the film for a long time, and officially committed to it on May 20, 2011.[20]

For casting the lead role of Julia opposite Cruise, the producers considered five actresses: Jessica Chastain, Olivia Wilde, Brit Marling, Noomi Rapace and Olga Kurylenko, and all five auditioned on August 27, 2011.[21]  [snip]

For the other leading role, Victoria, the producers initially considered Hayley Atwell, Diane Kruger and Kate Beckinsale. The three actresses traveled to Pittsburgh to screen-test with Cruise, who was filming Jack Reacher.[25] The role finally went to Andrea Riseborough.[26]

Edited December 21, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[aradia22]

Quote

  ON 12/15/2016 AT 3:35 PM, SILVER RAVEN SAID:

The Hollywood Reporter decided to have a conversation about race and gender in animation, and invited seven white guys to talk about it.

Unreal. And the sad part is reading quotes from the directors saying things like, "we went to a Saudi Arabia convention in LA to learn about the Middle East" or "We didn't know anything about China so we Googled it." Those were sound bites, of course, but I didn't detect any sense of concern or request or even questioning of their actions. I know it takes confidence to be a director, but it's as if these guys are saying that if they did it, it must be right. 

And no one else questioned the make-up of this panel, not even the participants themselves?

I am super biased. I'm just going to put that out there. Clements and Musker... that's like asking me to be mad at Alan Menken (not quite, but close). That said, I think it highlights the importance of having different voices in the room who look like the people we're starting to try to represent accurately. Even when (unlike Seth Rogen), your heart is probably in the right place the truth of the matter is that often (especially if you're in a privileged position) you often don't have to truly engage with people who are different from you. I believe that when Clements and Musker make movies like Aladdin and The Princess and the Frog, they have good intentions. It's a cartoon so no one's expecting hyper realism, but I don't think they're trying to offend anyone and maybe they do want to be more inclusive. But there are just so many things it's hard to see if you're not used to looking. Take Ava DuVernay who is working on A Wrinkle in Time. As a black female director, she is already used to carrying the responsibility of excellence and also representing the stories of all these communities accurately. Even when these guys have the best of intentions, there's no way they can feel that. You just don't go through life realizing that your actions play a role in how people will view the communities you represent. 

As for the make up of this panel... it's a group of white men in America working in a creative field. Of course they didn't notice. Why would they notice? These are the rooms they're usually in... in comedy, animation, etc. 

Quote

ETA: Tilda provided Jezebel with the  correspondence she had with Margaret. First thing that jumps out at me is that Margaret acted like they had a phone conversation, but it was really over email. I mean... potayto, potahto, I guess, but still. The situation's weird enough without her having to embellish stuff. And it makes me wonder if Margaret was mischaracterizing other stuff (can't read the emails right now). 

If that was truly the extent of their correspondence, then yes, Margaret mischaracterized it completely and that's a shame. Because what Tilda released was beautiful and wonderful and respectful and yet still honest and emotional. It also makes me think that this is part of the reason we maybe shouldn't keep resurrecting characters from a (more) misogynistic, racist, etc. past and "trying to make it work." Even if she felt she had to release the emails because of the controversy, I am glad they're out there because they model a great way of talking about all these issues. Acknowledging that people are trying to do better but also that the internet is reactionary and to the extent that it isn't people on tumblr who want to be outraged about everything, it's difficult even when people are trying to do better because there's just such a large history of failing at being inclusive and respectful. This was two ladies having a dialogue and it was awesome and it makes me a little sad that either Cho twisted it in the retelling or Tilda is hiding some later development.

Quote

In subsequent emails, she brings up Marvel's defense that the character in the comics was too stereotypical and there was no way it could be updated in a thoughtful way, and they couldn't have tried casting an Asian woman instead because it would've been impossible for the character to be anything other than a Dragon Lady (whatever,) so she evidently does have SOME idea what's going on.  She also points out that she already made it clear to the public that the character as played by her isn't SUPPOSED to be Asian (ie, it's not a yellowface situation,) which she considers "the most significant and damaging misunderstanding out there" - why do so many actors seem to think that whitewashing is only racist if it involves a Mickey Rooney makeup job?

I don't really want to dig into this anymore because the movie is out and there is other work to be done besides rehashing all the excuses (China/Tibet, etc.) and what other choices could have been made. But for those who have seen the movie, did you get the impression that Tilda was playing a Celtic monk or did they still have a lot of the trappings of Asian culture (costuming, fighting style, etc.)? 

Edited December 21, 2016 by aradia22

[Ms Blue Jay]

Difficult when trying to be better?  Tilda took the job when she knew her role was being whitewashed.  She contacted Margaret in hopes that An Asian Person - any Asian person - would give her a blessing for something she wanted to do and was already going to do.  How is that trying to be better?  How is that better than not taking the role and telling the casting director that the role should go to an Asian actor of which there are many?

Margaret is in the position of explaining a history of racism that is long and complicated and that we're all pretty sure Tilda knew anyway, which is why she'd write the emails in the first place.  That's a difficult position.  Not only is she an Asian person in Hollywood but she's experienced racism firsthand in the industry and then was asked to answer to that to Tilda.  That's a difficult position.

Tilda is in the position of being given a role that shouldn't have even gone to her.  Not a difficult position.  That's a privileged position.  It's kind of rubbing it in Margaret's face that she would even try to talk to her about it (read: justify taking this role from an Asian actor).

[aradia22]

Quote

Difficult when trying to be better?  Tilda took the job when she knew her role was being whitewashed.  She contacted Margaret in hopes that An Asian Person - any Asian person - would give her a blessing for something she wanted to do and was already going to do.  How is that trying to be better?  How is that better than not taking the role and telling the casting director that the role should go to an Asian actor of which there are many?

I just realized that I was typing too quickly. I meant to say we "shouldn't" keep resurrecting these problematic characters knowing there are going to be problems. Anyway, I do believe that it's complicated. Because if they'd hired an Asian American actor... would they have made him or her put on a fake accent? How would they have been dressed? How would they have written that character knowing it was going to be played by an Asian actor? It's a complicated question. Is it better to have an Asian actor play a role that does nothing to advance how Asians are being portrayed onscreen beyond that they're being represented? 

I do think Tilda was speaking in a respectful way. I don't think she saw her as "any Asian person" but as someone who is somewhat of an advocate and speaks about her background/heritage in her work and on social media. According to wikipedia, principal photography wrapped April 3, 2016. The email (or at least Margaret's reply) was sent May 13, 2016. I don't see it as Tilda asking for the blessing of an Asian person for something she wanted to do but asking how to deal with the fallout that was happening as people became more aware of her casting/the release date was approaching. The movie had already been filmed. There was nothing she could do about it. She had evidently bought into the spin... ("They cast Chiwetel Ejiofor as the second lead - a white Transylvanian in the books. And wrote a significant Asian character to be played by Benedict Wong.") Plus the gender flip with her own character. 

Quote

How best might we focus this thing? To offer intelligent and empowered thinking.. And see something constructive coming out of this moment?

Ducking the issue is not what I am about. I want to meet it, but, if possible, move things forward by how I meet it.

I realise, as far as I am concerned, this possibly means saying nothing: so far I have attempted to correct the notion that I accepted an offer to play an Asian.. (!!) the most significant and damaging misunderstanding out there, it seems. Beyond that, I don’t feel it appropriate for me to add anything, certainly at this point.

But I would love to know what ideas you - or anyone you know - have of something properly progressive to bring to this table. The debate is so important for all of us. It needs to build itself on strong ground.

I hear 'I thought we got this right. Being on the wrong side of the diversity debate is the opposite of how I live my life and what my values are. So what next? Now that it's already been done, how do we move on and move things forward? If there is something you feel I should do, what should it be? I am trying to be an ally. If I have involved myself in this debate then I want to be a positive voice moving forward.' 

Look, do I think the way she phrases things conveniently skirts blame or apologies? Yes. But to me it's more of a highly privileged progressive white feminism and not someone willfully screwing people over and then trying to cover it up. 

[jellysalmon]

I was thinking of what my least favorite movies from this year were and I settled on:

Independence Day 2

Suicide Squad

Batman v. Superman

All three had Asian actors in minor roles.  So minor that it's hard not to wonder if the producers went for some sort of "Asian Participation Score" and just threw in one character to meet the quota.  

I realized that one of the reasons I am apprehensive about Rogue One is that there is an Asian character in it. Not to say that I don't want Asian characters in my movies, but having one in a bit part seems to be the mark of a studio-tempered movie that I might not enjoy. It's not enough to have them in the films, I want them to be meaningful characters in the films.

[vibeology]

7 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I don't really want to dig into this anymore because the movie is out and there is other work to be done besides rehashing all the excuses (China/Tibet, etc.) and what other choices could have been made. But for those who have seen the movie, did you get the impression that Tilda was playing a Celtic monk or did they still have a lot of the trappings of Asian culture (costuming, fighting style, etc.)? 

There's a line of dialogue where they say she is Celtic but everything she does, wears etc is clearly borrowing from an Asian aesthetic. You can easily google The Ancient One and see for yourself but I think it's hard to justify when she looks like this: http://www.comicsbeat.com/preview-review-doctor-strange-film-turns-up-the-sfx-level/

2 hours ago, jellysalmon said:

I realized that one of the reasons I am apprehensive about Rogue One is that there is an Asian character in it. Not to say that I don't want Asian characters in my movies, but having one in a bit part seems to be the mark of a studio-tempered movie that I might not enjoy. It's not enough to have them in the films, I want them to be meaningful characters in the films.

Im not Asian so take my thoughts on this with a grain of salt, but neither of the two Asian main characters are there as tokens and both have substance. One of them is more stereotypical in his fighting style (you don't cast Donnie Yen for nothing) but has enough meat as a character that he isn't defined by that. Rogue One has a diverse cast and none of the main six characters are flimsy in terms of writing. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

9 hours ago, jellysalmon said:

I realized that one of the reasons I am apprehensive about Rogue One is that there is an Asian character in it. Not to say that I don't want Asian characters in my movies, but having one in a bit part seems to be the mark of a studio-tempered movie that I might not enjoy. It's not enough to have them in the films, I want them to be meaningful characters in the films.

There are several Asian actors in Rogue One. I wouldn't even call them minor characters.  There's a band of 7-8 "rebels" and out of the actors, 1 is Latino (Diego Luna), 3 are Asian, 1 is white (Felicity Jones), 1 is black (Forest Whitaker), (the 7th is an Android).  I'd say that's pretty cool.  3 different Asian men have fairly big roles in the film and I really enjoyed their parts.

@vibeology there are in fact three: Donnie Yen, Wen Jiang, and Riz Ahmed (he also starred in The Night Of.  The actor is Pakistani.)

Edited December 21, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[vibeology]

54 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

@vibeology there are in fact three: Donnie Yen, Wen Jiang, and Riz Ahmed (he also starred in The Night Of.  The actor is Pakistani.)

You are right. I should have counted him but for whatever reason my brain just went "Riz is British, I've heard his accent" and completely skipped over his Pakistani heritage. I think because his accent was such a surprise after his work in The Night Of.

[Bruinsfan]

On 9/30/2016 at 3:32 AM, Wiendish Fitch said:

Paul friggin' Newman, one of the most talented, gorgeous actors who ever lived, had the decency to look in the mirror one day and think, "Huh, it's time for me to stop playing roles better suited to young bucks, and I should really  stop macking on chicks half my age"*.

Honestly, I'd still have hit that around the time of Nobody's Fool, when he was pushing 70 (and I was 25).

[Bruinsfan]

2006 was kind of a banner year, with The History Boys, Quinceañera, Shortbus, and Surrender Dorothy. After that there was Tom Ford's A Single Man in 2009 and Kill Your Darlings in 2013. Of course in that same period there was also I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry, which set us back several decades, and Roland Emmerich attempted to whitewash and twinkify the gay rights movement for posterity with his ill-advised version of Stonewall.

I thought That Isn't Us was fairly well made and enjoyable for a no budget indie this summer, but Moonlight is definitely the crown jewel this year.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[topanga]

On 12/16/2016 at 9:16 PM, raezen said:

The film Passengers is getting some scathing reviews. So far none of the top critics like it and even a 'fresh' review had a statement saying "If you aren't nauseated by the ethics" you might enjoy it. The question of ethics being that more than some of the reviewers think the plot promotes rape culture. 

And yes, a lot of the reviews will have spoilers but the main disappointing element of the plot was in its original plot summary ,  so I don't know how peoplefeel about that for spoilers.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/passengers_2016

I read the spoilers because this initially looked like a good movie. Why were they woken up early anyway? But now I have no interest in seeing this movie, one where women are forced to sacrifice to meet a man's needs and desires.

[xaxat]

13 hours ago, jellysalmon said:

Independence Day 2

Suicide Squad

Batman v. Superman

All three had Asian actors in minor roles.  So minor that it's hard not to wonder if the producers went for some sort of "Asian Participation Score" and just threw in one character to meet the quota.  

The ID2 case is interesting. The character was clearly added to pander to the Chinese market. And, as you noted, had no role outside of being the token Chinese character. I don't remember where I read it, but Chinese moviegoers aren't happy with those types of portrayals. (I think it was an article about an alternate China only cut made for Iron Man 3). So if studios want to do better in that market, they are going to have to have better characters. 

ETA the NYT has a really interesting article on China and the movie The Great Wall.

Quote

Trying to appeal to everyone often warps the result. Movie executives, citing past experiences, say that audiences leave thinking that something was off the mark, even if they aren’t quite sure what.

“The biggest challenge in the film was integrating the two cultures,” Mr. Zhang said in an interview in Beijing this month. “We knew it would not be enough to rely on the novelty of the film’s Chinese elements to attract Western audiences. So we spent a lot of energy and time working on the story.”

Part of the plot — the inclusion of a white hero — has incited controversy. Some critics, judging the film by its trailers, accused Mr. Zhang of giving Mr. Damon a part that should have gone to an Asian actor, a practice known as whitewashing. In truth, the role was written specifically as non-Asian. Mr. Damon was sought for the part because he is a proven box office star around the world, including in China.

Edited December 21, 2016 by xaxat

[aradia22]

xaxat, the juxtaposition of your arguments brings up an interesting point. Have Chinese movies tried to pander to Western audiences with one minor white character? I was going to bring up this dumbness but at least from the trailer, the white actors seem to be the leads again. 

Like... is there the equivalent of Inception where Ken Watanabe is played by the one white actor in the movie? Is there a Guess Who's Coming to Dinner situation? Christian Bale is a lead in this one too.

Maybe I'm just missing something. Sure, there are character actors and supporting characters but I can't think of a movie where a white actor is a supporting character unless there are other white actors playing lead characters. That is, there's never really a token white actor because that actor is usually playing a lead character. Maybe there's one in a Tyler Perry movie or something. I don't watch those. 

The closest thing I can come up with is maybe The Bodyguard? Kevin Costner is still a lead character but at least it's Whitney Houston's movie and her story driving the plot.

[angora]

On 12/21/2016 at 1:00 AM, aradia22 said:

I just realized that I was typing too quickly. I meant to say we "shouldn't" keep resurrecting these problematic characters knowing there are going to be problems. Anyway, I do believe that it's complicated. Because if they'd hired an Asian American actor... would they have made him or her put on a fake accent? How would they have been dressed? How would they have written that character knowing it was going to be played by an Asian actor? It's a complicated question. Is it better to have an Asian actor play a role that does nothing to advance how Asians are being portrayed onscreen beyond that they're being represented? 

But the only options aren't "whitewash the role and cast a white person as a complex character" or "cast an Asian person as an offensive stereotype."  I was looking at this Twitter thread going through Swinton's emails one by one, and when she got to the notion that she was cast to avoid a "Dragon Lady stereotype," I love the simplicity of his response:  "FALSE. The problem w/ racist Asian caricatures isn't that they're Asian, it's that they're RACIST. You can have non-racist Asian characters."  Whenever I see Marvel wringing their hands over "What else could we have done, this was the ONLY way to make sure the Ancient One wasn't racist, you guys," I think, "Right, and this is a conclusion that you came to after all the hard work you did on the script with those Asian-American writers on your creative team?"  Frankly, if the people making your movie don't know how to write your Asian character in a non-racist way, and if you really are "committed to diversity" in everything you do, then you need to find different people.

[aradia22]

No, those aren't the only two options. But those are generally the only two Hollywood options. Again, I say take the third option and start telling new stories where you have diverse casts and don't have to deal with all this BS. I feel like a big part of the problem is you're taking a shitty character and you have to keep some of it or else why you using that character to begin with? Like, best case scenario, they use the Ancient One in the story and hire an Asian actor. What does that look like? My guess is the Asian equivalent of magical negro. Just that casual, supporting character kind of patronizingly offensive. 

[topanga]

1 hour ago, angora said:

But the only options aren't "whitewash the role and cast a white person as a complex character" or "cast an Asian person as an offensive stereotype."  I was looking at this Twitter thread going through Swinton's emails one by one, and when she got to the notion that she was cast to avoid a "Dragon Lady stereotype," I love the simplicity of his response:  "FALSE. The problem w/ racist Asian caricatures isn't that they're Asian, it's that they're RACIST. You can have non-racist Asian characters."  Whenever I see Marvel wringing their hands over "What else could we have done, this was the ONLY way to make sure the Ancient One wasn't racist, you guys," I think, "Right, and this is a conclusion that you came to after all the hard work you did on the script with those Asian-American writers on your creative team?"  Frankly, if the people making your movie don't know how to write your Asian character in a non-racist way, and if you really are "committed to diversity" in everything you do, then you need to find different people.

Dammnn, angora. Two snaps up for that post. Loved every word of it. 

 

I saw "Office Christmas Party" yesterday (silly, sometimes funny movie). Two things I liked about it: The story took place in Chicago, and there were actually people of color in the movie! Take that, John Hughes (RIP). And I liked that Courtney B. Vance played the executive that everyone at the company--and in the entire tech world--was trying to woo. 

ETA: Three things. One of the main characters was played by Olivia Munn, a Chinese-American actress. Throughout the movie, I kept thinking she looked at least part-Asian. But I was more fascinated by the fact that she reminded me of a brunette Lisa Kudrow. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by topanga

[Ms Blue Jay]

Quote

Part of the plot — the inclusion of a white hero — has incited controversy. Some critics, judging the film by its trailers, accused Mr. Zhang of giving Mr. Damon a part that should have gone to an Asian actor, a practice known as whitewashing. In truth, the role was written specifically as non-Asian. Mr. Damon was sought for the part because he is a proven box office star around the world, including in China.

It's just inside the box thinking, keeping everything as status quo.  Using the same so-called "proven" actors again and again.  I just read "proven" as code for white.  Denzel Washington wouldn't be cast in that movie.  White beauty is loved in a lot of cultures, not just North American.  It's just old-school thinking.  All of this is just justifying not doing something different or new.

I'm personally not going to watch any movies that pretend to tell a black story or an Asian story starring a white actor.  It's not appealing to me.

[aradia22]

Quote

White beauty is loved in a lot of cultures, not just North American.  It's just old-school thinking.  All of this is just justifying not doing something different or new.

I think partially it has cultural roots that make sense. For instance, in some cultures it's not a racial whiteness but a paleness that's prized. Because if you're nobility then you stay inside and pale whereas if you're a common laborer, you're out in the fields tanning from the sun. But I think you also can't discount the damaging effects of Western superiority (that is, people with white features going around telling everyone how great their features and culture are). American media dominates the world over but even before then, people with a Caucasian appearance were sending their tentacles out all over the globe. Actually, adjusting again, this pre-dates Imperialism... though I think that's when the worst of it started. I'm going to say there was cross-pollination as far back as the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians but I haven't read enough of those texts to know how much whiteness was prized in particular.

This is all to say that when people express a "preference" it baffles me when they can't acknowledge that the preference lies in years of societal messaging. And we don't have to just accept that.

I don't know how I'd copy it but if you can somehow track it down... one of my current favorite romance writers, Courtney Milan wrote a little bit about this in the Q&A section at the end of one of her books. Basically, like a lot of other historical fiction romance writers (who are writing about Regency/Victorian England) she was writing things prizing "pale, white skin." (Of course, this generally happens more with female characters but that's another conversation.) Someone was complaining about this trend on twitter (not her books specifically) but it made Milan step back and take a look at her work. And then she started to make a conscious change and do better. It's not that hard, especially when we're writing new stories. Sometimes it's as simple as just flipping a switch and being a little more conscious of the implications. I was guilty of it, too. I was writing a lot of pale, slender characters until one day I made a change. I don't believe that only pale and thin women are valuable or worthy of love and consideration so why am I implicitly saying that in my stories... in the world I am creating for myself? Because I'm following the pattern of the books I've read? I could just not do that. And I did. And it wasn't that difficult.  

Quote

I'm personally not going to watch any movies that pretend to tell a black story or an Asian story starring a white actor.  It's not appealing to me.

I think advocacy and otherwise raising a fuss is as relevant to the conversation as sitting out a movie. We're often told to vote with our box office dollars. But me "boycotting" a movie I wasn't going to see anyway (like an action movie or a superhero movie) doesn't affect the bottom line in a noticeable way. I do think having large groups of people who might have seen those movies sitting out makes a difference. But in this case, I do see the value of articles and blogs and social media in swaying popular opinion and making the studios finally pay attention.