Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Mindymoo]

My cousin was 18 and she committed suicide. She had severe mental issues, along with a history of physical and sexual abuse that we didn't find out about until after she died. They wouldn't bury her in the Catholic cemetery next to my beloved Aunt Lulu because she was a suicide, and I heard distant family members whispering about how she was going to hell. At the age of five, I said to myself "this is garbage: a loving god would not send my cousin to hell just because she committed suicide. She was sick and wanted to end her pain." (I was an enlightened child, a depressed child, and had been suicidal myself.) That's when I realized what BS it all was, and stopped believing in god.

[Satchels of gold]

Oh Bella and Mindy perhaps we were seperated at birth.... I came home from my first week of school ( catholic school of course) with a lovely picture I drew about Noah's arc and shocked my mother by asking " you don't really beleive that do you?" She was taken aback because she was in her mid thirties and it was the first time she had questioned it. So yea, My parents had fun with me as well.

[Aja]

Not Mindy, but when I was 7, I figured out that there was no Santa because there were starving children in the news and no one would deliver toys to American children if other children were hungry. I then announced that if Santa was impossible, God was even more impossible. My parents had fun with that one!

I would have literally spontaneously combusted with motherly pride if that was my kid.

[NextIteration]

Tee hee, curious and thoughtful children are dangerous!

[JennyMominFL]

I think I knew I was an Atheist while I was pretty young. When you are raised a nice Catholic Girl though, it's not easy to come to grips with not believing. For years I explored other religions ,looking for God, before converting to Judaism 15 years ago. Eventually, I realized  that while I like the beliefs of Judaism, I just don't believe in God.. To people who do, I say. There are many supposed gods. You believe in only 1 of them and I believe in one less than you.

Funny thing though is that I still feel absolutely Jewish and I fit in quite well with my many Jewish atheist friends. And I'm very pround of the 3 caring conscientious atheists I have raised.

Edited July 14, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Rhetorica]

My heart just bursts with pride from all your your caring and moral postings. Humans don't have to be afraid of the afterlife to be humane. <3

[galax-arena]

Man, y'all are making me feel embarrassed for not questioning anything when I was a kid... 

[Aja]

Man, y'all are making me feel embarrassed for not questioning anything when I was a kid... 

Don't feel badly. I used to make lists of all the sins I committed during the day so I wouldn't forget to ask for forgiveness for anything during my bedtime prayers or it was off to hell I went. I thought that was how it worked until I was, like, twelve.

[kalamac]

Telling me you are a good Christian means nothing. As if Christians have a corner or morality. Good Christians are no better than good Jews, Good Muslims, Good Buddhists or good Atheists. Goodness isn't tied to religion and I'm tired of people assuming it is

Disclaimer, I  not  saying you guys do this ..The Duggars do

From Terry Pratchett's novel 'Snuff':

"...good people have no business being so bad. Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."

[Churchhoney]

Not Mindy, but when I was 7, I figured out that there was no Santa because there were starving children in the news and no one would deliver toys to American children if other children were hungry. I then announced that if Santa was impossible, God was even more impossible. My parents had fun with that one!

 

I came to that conclusion in the exact same way when I was 6. I didn't tell anyone, though. Thought it was too risky. Instead, I went on a binge of religious reading that lasted about five years, trying to figure out where my thinking might be going wrong. I looked like the biggest churchy child prig ever, and nobody knew there was a six-year-old atheist behind it all.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

Actually, I don't think Ben's message had anything to do with homosexuality at all. It's one I've heard in various contexts all my life, and in the right context, by the right person, has been really healing and helpful for certain women to hear. It's not all that different from secular advice columnists who say if you date a string of men who treat you badly, look and see what the common denominator is - it might be the kind of man you are attracted to.

[Mindymoo]

The best part of it all was when I became an altar girl. I was the best damn altar girl there ever was, because the more times you served mass, the more of a discount you got on the end of the school year trip to Cedar Point. I got to go for free, and since the priest trusted me so much, he had me serve funerals and weddings. And I got PAID. $15 per funeral, $45 per wedding. At an old Polish parish where a ton of parishoners kept dying off, I was making bookoo bucks. We switched churches and schools when I started sixth grade, and since they didn't have those perks, I quit being an altar girl. I did a lot of religious research, liked nothing but some Buddhist teachings, but still am an atheist. (Okay, I did get ordained as a Dudeist priest.) I also told my parents that if they made me get confirmed, I would stand in front of everyone, tell them that everything they believed in was bullshit and that I worshiped Satan. My brother and his friend kept telling me that if I got confirmed I'd make a ton of money, but I refused because it was against my principles. My parents never made me get confirmed or go to church outside of a wedding or funeral again. I wish that one of the Duggars would have that kind of a revolt against their parent's teachings. I pissed off a lot of nuns back in my Catholic school days.

[Sew Sumi]

Actually, I don't think Ben's message had anything to do with homosexuality at all. It's one I've heard in various contexts all my life, and in the right context, by the right person, has been really healing and helpful for certain women to hear. It's not all that different from secular advice columnists who say if you date a string of men who treat you badly, look and see what the common denominator is - it might be the kind of man you are attracted to.

I think the OP meant that Ben's message could be tailored to deal with homosexulaity, in the vein of being a "loving" message, not that this particular message was meant to deal with both young women's dating habits as well as the ebil gheys.

[Churchhoney]

The best part of it all was when I became an altar girl. I was the best damn altar girl there ever was, because the more times you served mass, the more of a discount you got on the end of the school year trip to Cedar Point. I got to go for free, and since the priest trusted me so much, he had me serve funerals and weddings. And I got PAID. $15 per funeral, $45 per wedding. At an old Polish parish where a ton of parishoners kept dying off, I was making bookoo bucks. We switched churches and schools when I started sixth grade, and since they didn't have those perks, I quit being an altar girl. I did a lot of religious research, liked nothing but some Buddhist teachings, but still am an atheist. (Okay, I did get ordained as a Dudeist priest.) I also told my parents that if they made me get confirmed, I would stand in front of everyone, tell them that everything they believed in was bullshit and that I worshiped Satan. My brother and his friend kept telling me that if I got confirmed I'd make a ton of money, but I refused because it was against my principles. My parents never made me get confirmed or go to church outside of a wedding or funeral again. I wish that one of the Duggars would have that kind of a revolt against their parent's teachings. I pissed off a lot of nuns back in my Catholic school days.

 

Okay, you're my hero.

 

In some households, though, kids are likely to think it's far too dangerous to carry on the revolt openly, and I think the Duggars may be this kind. Mine was, so I had my revolution internally, and that does seem like cowardice many times, even to me. But in my household it looked way too likely that someone could trip a kid on the basement stairs so that her death from a cracked head on the cement seemed like a tragic accident about which some people would cry but not mean it. I got suicidal at 8, with repressing everything I thought a big cause of it, I suppose. But it wasn't really depression, just steeped fury, so I managed to think my way out of it, mostly, plotting the escape I could make some years down the line after I had a high school diploma and a little money from working as many jobs as I could get. If I had been a Duggar, without the possibility of that diploma or those jobs, I don't know what I would have done.

[Rhetorica]

From Terry Pratchett's novel 'Snuff':

"...good people have no business being so bad. Goodness is about what you do. Not what you pray to."

I love Sir Terry! Have you read "Small Gods"? It's great! Explains organized religion, faith, and the meaning of life.

[galax-arena]

Actually, I don't think Ben's message had anything to do with homosexuality at all.

Just confirming Sew Sumi's interpretation of my comment. It's true that Ben's message, while patronizing and presumptuous, isn't really hateful, and there are certain contexts where that sort of advice could be needed (but not coming from a 19-year-old blowhard, tbh), but that's not the sort of thing people typically bust out "love the sinner, hate the sin" for, which was the context of the whole "don't tell me you love me, show me" bit that we veered off into. So his instagram post isn't really applicable to what we were talking about, is what I was saying.  

Edited July 15, 2015 by galax-arena

[Mindymoo]

Okay, you're my hero.

 

In some households, though, kids are likely to think it's far too dangerous to carry on the revolt openly, and I think the Duggars may be this kind. Mine was, so I had my revolution internally, and that does seem like cowardice many times, even to me. But in my household it looked way too likely that someone could trip a kid on the basement stairs so that her death from a cracked head on the cement seemed like a tragic accident about which some people would cry but not mean it. I got suicidal at 8, with repressing everything I thought a big cause of it, I suppose. But it wasn't really depression, just steeped fury, so I managed to think my way out of it, mostly, plotting the escape I could make some years down the line after I had a high school diploma and a little money from working as many jobs as I could get. If I had been a Duggar, without the possibility of that diploma or those jobs, I don't know what I would have done.

We'd be having a "Free Churchhoney" rally in your honor. I knew kids kinda like the Duggars. They went to public school, but everything was church, church, church, god, god, god, all the time. One girl, a Mormon, was abruptly removed from school and sent to live with relatives in Utah when she was caught kissing a black boy in the broom closet. We also had a lot of these churchy girls getting pregnant from trysts in said broom closet and disappearing for a few weeks, and coming back magically without child. A lot of these girls are saddled down with multiple children, a divorce or three under their belt, and not even thirty. Many didn't even make it to graduation. I went to a Pentecostal youth group with a girl who was an acquaintance from the school rock band that I was the lead singer/guitarist of because she wouldn't stop bugging me about it. Because the place scared the hell out of me and due to their bashing of gays (which I am) Catholics (which my family is) Muslims and waiting for the rapture, I refused to go back. She started telling everyone I was a demon because of that. I'm a lot of things, but I'm a nice person, and even if I don't believe in an afterlife, I'm not going to let you condemn my Busia, the best person I have ever known, to hell just because she's a Catholic. They also said stupid stuff about how Jesus wouldn't go near AIDS patients without wearing rubber gloves- and they weren't joking. A lot of these people would use the phrase "I will pray for you" as a code for "fuck you". Very judgmental, but they were raised that way and I hope that some grew out of it.

[Churchhoney]

Because the place scared the hell out of me and due to their bashing of gays (which I am) Catholics (which my family is) Muslims and waiting for the rapture, I refused to go back. She started telling everyone I was a demon because of that. I'm a lot of things, but I'm a nice person, and even if I don't believe in an afterlife, I'm not going to let you condemn my Busia, the best person I have ever known, to hell just because she's a Catholic.

 

Awful. I hope they grew out of it, too. So hard to see why people believe this stuff and want to teach children to believe it. I suppose it makes them feel secure? In any case, you certainly found yourself in a hotbed of terror-based, terrorizing religiosity. Wow. Also, I'm glad I never needed the rally. Hurrah for public school.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Churchhoney

[kalamac]

I love Sir Terry! Have you read "Small Gods"? It's great! Explains organized religion, faith, and the meaning of life.

I've read them all. I was so devastated when he died earlier this year. Such a great mind.

 

I love how he deals with religions on the Discworld.

[Love2dance]

CHURCHHONEY and MINDY MCINDY, thank you for sharing your stories. I am learning that not everyone had an easy going, loosey/goosey upbringing. So many of you have survived really challenging childhoods. I admire the strength that you possessed as you found different ways to survive, even when your beliefs were different from your parents/families.

[GEML]

Fundamentalist families lose about 50% of their children. Evangelicals are currently bleeding out by 75%. (You can find figures in publications such as CHRISTIANITY TODAY.). Quiverful fundamentalism is a relatively new explanation for a traditional Fundy practice, and their numbers don't seem to be any higher, although the final counts aren't really in yet. But you can look anecdotally on tons of websites, and there's a lot of fractured families out there. And the accounts aren't only coming from survivors, but also from ministries still trying to stop it.

Edited July 15, 2015 by GEML

[Aja]

Totally. And, in all fairness, one of my best lifelong friends has never lived outside of Alabama. She's one of the most kind, compassionate, fiercely intelligent, tuned-in people I have ever known.

[Bella]

Fundamentalist families lose about 50% of their children. Evangelicals are currently bleeding out by 75%. (You can find figures in publications such as CHRISTIANITY TODAY.). Quiverful fundamentalism is a relatively new explanation for a traditional Fundy practice, and their numbers don't seem to be any higher, although the final counts aren't really in yet. But you can look anecdotally on tons of websites, and there's a lot of fractured families out there. And the accounts aren't only coming from survivors, but also from ministries still trying to stop it.

 

So as hard as the Duggars make it for their kids to leave, I believe we should expect some to do so. I've always felt that. How many stories do we have here from posters who said, in effect, "my family was super-duper-extreme-fundie, and I left even though it was hard"? A number. Losing the TV show may make this easier.

 

But the religions that endorse shunning of family members who leave - that's got to be the worst unless the family members are all jerks. And even then, it's your family.

[GEML]

And I honestly don't think the Duggars will do that. Oh, I think the immediate repercussions will be harsh. I don't know many who left a Fundy family where the immediate implications weren't. There'sa lot of shouting and condemning and hell fire. Some people - I'm always curious about why this person and not that one - continue to feel "convicted" all of their lives. (Which is not always the same as guilt. Many people might feel guilty for leaving, especially if a family member is involved. But that's not the same as feeling "sinful.")

But in the long run, MOST families reach some sort of reconciliation. Not all, and the percentage who don't is still high. But as often as the family shunning the child who left, the child shuns the parents. Not judging - I've know some horrid parents - just saying that's not uncommon.

But yes, some of the Duggars will leave. But I don't believe Jim Bob will cut them dead. Jim Bob worships family more than anything else - especially his position as a patriarch. Michelle, on the other hand, she likes rules that other people have to follow.

[Defrauder]

I just think that the Duggars just have it backwards.  I believe that men are supposed to be the helpers of women, women being the true creators and givers of life.  Unfortunately in some views and families like the Duggars men decided they were supposed to dominate the women and women were supposed to be submissive to them.  The men were using their qualities that were intended to help women, like physical strength, to dominate them instead.  Backwards.  Women are the true creators and givers of life.  The whole God is male thing just doesn't work.

[kokapetl]

And I honestly don't think the Duggars will do that. Oh, I think the immediate repercussions will be harsh. I don't know many who left a Fundy family where the immediate implications weren't. There'sa lot of shouting and condemning and hell fire. Some people - I'm always curious about why this person and not that one - continue to feel "convicted" all of their lives. (Which is not always the same as guilt. Many people might feel guilty for leaving, especially if a family member is involved. But that's not the same as feeling "sinful.")

But in the long run, MOST families reach some sort of reconciliation. Not all, and the percentage who don't is still high. But as often as the family shunning the child who left, the child shuns the parents. Not judging - I've know some horrid parents - just saying that's not uncommon.

But yes, some of the Duggars will leave. But I don't believe Jim Bob will cut them dead. Jim Bob worships family more than anything else - especially his position as a patriarch. Michelle, on the other hand, she likes rules that other people have to follow.

Would the fact that the Duggars seem to be only sort of borderline accepted by Gothard & co be a positive sign?

[GEML]

The Kellers couldn't be thicker in it, and they don't shun their children, although I think there might have been some rougher waters some years back. (Long before the Duggars were in the picture. I don't want to drag up the "Thanksgiving" story again).

And the Bates seem pretty open to knowing some of their children will likely leave.

[mizkat]

I believe that men are supposed to be the helpers of women, women being the true creators and givers of life.

 

Biblically speaking, marriage is a true partnership, so they help each other out equally. Many people pay attention the scripture "wives be submissive to your husbands" and completely ignore what comes after that: "men love your wives as you love yourself".  In any partnership, whether it's marriage or work or even doubles tennis, there's always give and take. Compromise requires concession and submission and relationships work better when this is in equal balance. That's God's intent (as I interpret it and from my 22 years of marriage). But like Defrauder said, some men take one part of the scripture and run with it. That's not biblical. 

[GEML]

Taking off of the point above, if you are a biblical person, I've always liked the above that you should read and deal with your part, not focused on telling the other person how he/she isn't living up to his/hers. Yes, I know how that can lead to abuse, but it also makes for some truly lovely marriages.

"Headship" and "submission" have a lot of different meanings, by the way.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Not Mindy, but when I was 7, I figured out that there was no Santa because there were starving children in the news and no one would deliver toys to American children if other children were hungry. I then announced that if Santa was impossible, God was even more impossible. My parents had fun with that one!

I'm not Mindy either, but felt like adding my "epiphany" to the list (sorry if these stories are veering far enough off topic that they should actually be in the prayer closet. Maybe they could be moved there).

 

At any rate, I think I was about six or seven, raised Catholic. I was also a very early reader, and loved fairy tales. I really wanted the fairies to be real, but I knew they weren't, no matter how many "pretend" games I played. I remember a friend and I leaving letters for the fairies when we found mushroom circles, and building little houses for them with twigs and petals, etc, but as much as fairyland was a captivating concept to me, I always knew it was just make-believe. We also had a book with some stories of Greek and Roman mythology floating around, and I also found those appealing. For whatever reason, I always equated Jesus stories with all those myths and fairytales. It wasn't until I walked into my parents' room one evening to find Dad kneeling at the foot of his bed saying his prayers that it occurred to me that he actually took it all seriously, and there was something profoundly embarrassing to me about that. Saying prayers was a little-kid ritual which I had pretty much felt as though I was outgrowing by that time myself...

I think I was torn for some time between trying to figure out how one set of stories was supposed to be the truth where all the others were fantasy when the stories in all of them were equally unbelievable.

Mostly I just dealt with it and stayed quiet...I always enjoyed the singing part of Church, at least, and it didn't bother me too much to go. It wasn't until I was in high school and got to know my first Fundie, who became a friend despite the fact that she believed with every fiber of her being that no matter how nice and sweet and kind a person was, if they didn't "have Jesus as their personal savior" they were bound to spend an eternity of agony in the fires of Hell, that I really came to ponder the complexities of religion on a deeper level, trying to find some sort of resolution which would enable it to make sense to me, and found, more and more, that the amount of doublethink involved was just too much for my poor mind to keep up with. Too many contradictions and loose ends...My brain is evidently just not wired for faith.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Jynnan tonnix

[galax-arena]

"Headship" and "submission" have a lot of different meanings, by the way.

Yes, but in the conservative/complementarian denominations at least, somehow this always amounts to the man being the leader of the relationship. No, thanks. I don't care if the man pays attention to the second part about loving his wife or not, or that it doesn't necessarily mean the woman has to be a doormat. I can't be bothered with a denomination that tells me I'm inherently second fiddle thanks to my gender. 

[RainbowBrite]

For myself, my mom took me to a live taping of Sesame Street and I realized quickly that Big Bird was actually a person in a costume. I started extrapolating from there, first asking about Santa. From there, I grew to be extremely skeptical and analytical. My family was non-religious in that we just never spoke about it. I had an illustrated children's bible, because my mom was concerned with me being able to understand literary references to the bible growing up (and even in pop culture) but I was never told that it was a "true story". I did become curious and asked to go to church when I was 6 or 7. My parents signed me up for Sunday School and dropped me off at the door each Sunday. That lasted about 3 weekends before I had enough. I have just always *known* that to me, it is all a story. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by RainbowBrite

[Cherrio]

For myself, my mom took me to a live taping of Sesame Street and I realized quickly that Big Bird was actually a person in a costume. I started extrapolating from there, first asking about Santa. From there, I grew to be extremely skeptical and analytical. My family was non-religious in that we just never spoke about it. I had an illustrated children's bible, because my mom was concerned with me being able to understand literary references to the bible growing up (and even in pop culture) but I was never told that it was a "true story". I did become curious and asked to go to church when I was 6 or 7. My parents signed me up for Sunday School and dropped me off at the door each Sunday. That lasted about 3 weekends before I had enough. I have just always *known* that to me, it is all a story. 

It is all a story, your last words is how I have always viewed it too.

      Lately, I have come to the conclusion that it probably was the Harry Potter of its day, with lots of other authors coming out with their own attempts at writing the same kind of stories and hoping to cash in.

[RainbowBrite]

It is all a story, your last words is how I have always viewed it too.

      Lately, I have come to the conclusion that it probably was the Harry Potter of its day, with lots of other authors coming out with their own attempts at writing the same kind of stories and hoping to cash in.

Yes!! I was going to make the Happy Potter connection but wasn't sure how that would go over. I love the series and see the value in it as a piece of art and as entertainment and really, you can learn a lot from the wise words of Dumbledore, but that doesn't mean I will ever believe in magic or hope my son gets his acceptance letter from Hogwarts.

[Happyfatchick]

Just confirming Sew Sumi's interpretation of my comment. It's true that Ben's message, while patronizing and presumptuous, isn't really hateful, and there are certain contexts where that sort of advice could be needed (but not coming from a 19-year-old blowhard, tbh), but that's not the sort of thing people typically bust out "love the sinner, hate the sin" for, which was the context of the whole "don't tell me you love me, show me" bit that we veered off into. So his instagram post isn't really applicable to what we were talking about, is what I was saying.  

It's hard, yes, to listen to a 20 year old man with ZERO experience talk to girls about dating.  BUT...keep in mind that whenever we look at the comments on the IG pics, they always seem to be written by teeage girls.  Not old ones, either, I'm saying I'd place most of them middle-school age.  So for THEM, he's on target.  And maybe that's who they were aiming at??

 

But the religions that endorse shunning of family members who leave - that's got to be the worst unless the family members are all jerks. And even then, it's your family.

Yes, shunning is awful.  My dad was shunned by the Amish (who are PROS) for nearly 60 years.  And some of those people (even though family) were certified jerks.  But you're right... even then, it was his family.  It moved my dad more than anything I've ever seen to have the ban lifted.   Amazing that something put in place when you are 20 can feel like a boulder when removed at 75. 

[galax-arena]

It's hard, yes, to listen to a 20 year old man with ZERO experience talk to girls about dating.  BUT...keep in mind that whenever we look at the comments on the IG pics, they always seem to be written by teeage girls.  

Haha, that's true. But then that's even worse in a way, because I don't want impressionable teenagers having their heads filled by a 20-year-old dumbass with no experience in dating. 

[Happyfatchick]

Edited out - just realized I needed to talk about B&J on their own thread.  Sorry! 

 

Note to mods - I always think it would be nice if we had a way to "flag" someone if we respond to their post - so we could let them know without having to copy their post down when it's not necessary.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[GEML]

In my own marriage we define headship as strategist and submissive (such an odd word in American society) tactician. My husband is the big picture guy. I'm the person who makes it work. Not sure if that's how Paul intended it....

My husband, when we were very young, working class, newly married, was once told by a group of Fundy men that he was intended for great things, they had been told this by God in prayer. But they were honestly perplexed how this was going to happen because his wife wasn't submissive AT ALL and it was their recommendation that he get me in line as soon as possible.

He didn't take their advice. But the prayers were right. My husband is awesome. And I've had very much a life of my ow choosing.

Edited July 15, 2015 by GEML

[becca3891]

I don't think their goal is to win people to Christ or Gothardism. I think JB's goal is to make sure his family never leaves him. And the show is perfect towards that end.

Their whole thing is that potential suitors need to have a "ministry mindset." And a ministry is supposed to be about winning people to Christ, although there may be other components such as providing assistance in poor countries. So I think it's both. Yes, JB is controlling but they also do want to "win people to Christ."

 

Not Mindy, but when I was 7, I figured out that there was no Santa because there were starving children in the news and no one would deliver toys to American children if other children were hungry. I then announced that if Santa was impossible, God was even more impossible. My parents had fun with that one!

It took me all the way until college before I fully came to that realization, although for many years before that, I cringed my way through church and wished with all my heart that we could go to a liberal church that didn't take everything literally. Now, I find it hard to understand liberal Christians (although I think they tend to be wonderful people, with their emphasis on love and social justice) because I don't understand how you can believe any of it if you acknowledge that a lot of it never happened.

 

Biblically speaking, marriage is a true partnership...

Biblically speaking, marriage could be pretty bad, though. As in, being forced to marry your rapist, or being kidnapped and sold into marriage, or being picked out as a member of the king's harem (Esther) or many other examples. If you believe the Old Testament, which fundies do, all those laws were designed by god himself, not just manmade laws being described. The Levitical law supposedly was direct from god. The same god who told Lot he was the only righteous man left in the city, even though he volunteered his virgin daughters to be raped because that was less shameful to him than gay angels having sex. (That always struck me as perhaps even more bizarre than the talking animal stories in the bible.)

[GEML]

I've pointed out for years that if we looked to the Bible for strong, complementarian marriages that were functional, we come up with very few examples. That's not necessarily shocking - that was a radically different world from the world we live in. They would laugh out loud at the idea of a "complementarian" marriage as the model. Abigail was David's property, and he had many, many wives. Bathsheba's son ultimately becomes the line to the throne. Abraham crushes Sarah's heart, even if it's what she asks. Do Paul and Peter have living wives when the follow Jesus? (Contextually, we know they must have married.). They're voices are never even mentioned in the gospels as the men leave and are martyred. Paul SAYS he is alone, but does this mean he has no wife somewhere? He must have had at one time....did she refuse to convert? Did she die? The possibilities are tantalizing.

But not one of them would look ANYTHING like today's strictest, most patriarchal marriage. It's just world's away. (Thankfully!)

And I used to think the Duggars "ministry mindset" was about leading people to Christ, but I don't think it necessarily is. I'm not saying it's opposed. I just think JB worships his family most, and a son successful in a secular field is likely to take the girls away. He took a big chance on Derick, and how that goes will have repercussions for the other daughters.

[GeeGolly]

I think while growing God's army the Duggars did have a ministry mindset. However when JB blew the wad on a run for office, finances became the focus. Then in walks TLC and problem solved. I think the Duggars' ministry mindset never evolved though, and that they believed that spouting a few 'values' while people watched them on TV was it. With that said however, I have never heard one of their presentations on the Christian circuit, so maybe they are less simple when speaking to a like-minded audience.

[GEML]

I've also not read any of their books. To be honest, I don't find them as interesting as I find everything else around them. (Including all of you!)

[anony mouse]

I've pointed out for years that if we looked to the Bible for strong, complementarian marriages that were functional, we come up with very few examples. That's not necessarily shocking - that was a radically different world from the world we live in. They would laugh out loud at the idea of a "complementarian" marriage as the model. Abigail was David's property, and he had many, many wives. Bathsheba's son ultimately becomes the line to the throne. Abraham crushes Sarah's heart, even if it's what she asks. Do Paul and Peter have living wives when the follow Jesus? (Contextually, we know they must have married.). They're voices are never even mentioned in the gospels as the men leave and are martyred. Paul SAYS he is alone, but does this mean he has no wife somewhere? He must have had at one time....did she refuse to convert? Did she die? The possibilities are tantalizing.

But not one of them would look ANYTHING like today's strictest, most patriarchal marriage. It's just world's away. (Thankfully!)

And I used to think the Duggars "ministry mindset" was about leading people to Christ, but I don't think it necessarily is. I'm not saying it's opposed. I just think JB worships his family most, and a son successful in a secular field is likely to take the girls away. He took a big chance on Derick, and how that goes will have repercussions for the other daughters.

The only complementarian marriage I can think of in the Bible is the Proverbs 31 wife, where she's kicking butt and taking names with her vineyard and cloth making so her husband can be a busy village elder.

But a lot of Christians use that passage to pressure women to stay at home and somehow try and live up to this impossible, fantasy ideal of June Cleaver motherhood.

[GEML]

(Wry tone) and proverbs are stories, even in that time. Not actual living flesh and blood people.

[mizkat]

Biblically speaking, marriage could be pretty bad, though. As in, being forced to marry your rapist, or being kidnapped and sold into marriage, or being picked out as a member of the king's harem (Esther) or many other examples. If you believe the Old Testament, which fundies do, all those laws were designed by god himself, not just manmade laws being described. The Levitical law supposedly was direct from god. The same god who told Lot he was the only righteous man left in the city, even though he volunteered his virgin daughters to be raped because that was less shameful to him than gay angels having sex. (That always struck me as perhaps even more bizarre than the talking animal stories in the bible.)

 

Very true. Unfortunately these things are still happening now (are there still harems, though? Correct me if I'm wrong). 

 

Jesus abolished Levitical law. Love one another, love your wife as yourself, etc. --the New Testament law is about love, not punishment. But yeah, people like to pick and choose which part of the Bible to follow and which one to use to "prove" they're right and other people are wrong. The Bible can't be broken up like that, it's one continuous document and story. There's also a lot of mystery there, and that's where faith comes in. 

 

I've got to say, I've really enjoyed reading everyone's posts. This has been such a respectful discussion among people with different beliefs. Proof that it can be done! :) 

[GEML]

Yes, there are still harems. I'd like to believe there are not Christians practicing harems, but the world is a big place and plenty of people professing to follow Christ do things I find abominable.

[Aja]

I recently watched a documentary on the Children of God cult. You want to talk about people doing abominable things in the name of Christ. While the sick, vile, degrading, extremely illegal things the COG were preaching are not comparable to the Duggars, true, I can honestly say that I found the COG quite a logical extension of Gothardism, just more extreme. There were quite a lot of parallels, starting with women molding themselves in the image most pleasing to the cult leader.

[Mindymoo]

I recently watched a documentary on the Children of God cult. You want to talk about people doing abominable things in the name of Christ. While the sick, vile, degrading, extremely illegal things the COG were preaching are not comparable to the Duggars, true, I can honestly say that I found the COG quite a logical extension of Gothardism, just more extreme. There were quite a lot of parallels, starting with women molding themselves in the image most pleasing to the cult leader.

I was just about to mention the COG/Family International! What they have is basically a harem. They also send young, attractive women out to go have sex with men and bring them into the cult, in a practice called "flirty fishing." Child rape and molestation is rampant, as is encouragement of procreation. The women are just pleasure and procreative tools for the men, but aren't slut-shamed for having sex with a ton of people. It's completely bonkers, and if you leave, you are cut off from your family. (Kind of like Scientologists and their "suppresive person" thing.) David Berg was way worse than Gothard, but they are cut from the same cloth for sure.

[GEML]

There are actually a lot of subtle but important differences between the two groups. CoG come out of a very different religious tradition - David Berg came out of the Christian and Missionary Alliance church, which isn't Baptist/Calvinist In origin, and you see this in the Worldwide approach the group took.

It was also an anti-family organization, and broke up nuclear families for communitarian pods. That's a huge difference.

And for all of the sexual abuse committed in Gothard's world, it's the tip of the iceberg to what took place in CoG communities. It's beyond repugnant.

There is a decent memoir on them called Heaven's Harlots if anyone would like more info.

[Julia]

I started to question what I was being told when the pastor of our parish, who had already moved his mistress into the rectory, told me I couldn't be an altar girl because of reasons and my (white, heterosexual, college-educated, and enraged pretty much constantly in a very MRA way by the HYPOCRISY of people who thought they were more oppressed than he was) dad made excuses for him.

OTOH, I later came to realize that if someone's too ignorant, prejudiced and venal for me to accept their view of religion, they're too ignorant, prejudiced and venal for me to listen to them when they tell me their God is the only possible God.