Gimme That Old Time Religion

[autumnh]

http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/23/8-steps-to-confront-your-wifes-sexual-refusal/

 

Wow.

[Churchhoney]

Wow, that story was scary! Glad you escaped. As to Gothard's siblings, you should check out Steve Gothard, Bill's brother who used to be high up in the IBLP world before resigning after having multiple affairs with its secretaries. On the surface, I would have said that an affair is better than sexually harassing over 30 women (probably many, many more who will never come forward) but the fact that it was multiple secretaries makes me highly suspicious that Steve was possibly intimidating these women and abusing his power. Either way, they are a creepy, super hypocritical pair of brothers.

 

And then there's the other Gothard brother, who in December was accused of  this:

 

'State Attorney General Pam Bondi has sued a Naples businessman on racketeering and fraud charges, alleging he stole millions of dollars from victims nationwide — many of them elderly — by making false promises and offering stocks that turned out to be worthless....

 

'...Roger Nixon, 72,....a retired law enforcement officer who provided Bondi with all his records, compiled a list of roughly 200 victims he says lost about $5 million.

“He’s defrauded us out of our life savings,” said Nixon, adding that he lost $285,000 after meeting Gothard through his church a decade ago. “We’re flat broke. We didn’t have hot water for a year.”

 

'Nixon said Gothard used his brother’s church ministry “to lure victims in the name of Christianity.” Since then, Nixon contracted Lyme disease and can’t afford treatment, lost vision in one eye, had a stroke and had to undergo a heart bypass last Christmas that he can’t pay for.'

 

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/state-sues-naples-businessman-saying-he-bilked-elderly-people-out-of-millions_44739110

Edited May 30, 2015 by Churchhoney

[NextIteration]

http://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/23/8-steps-to-confront-your-wifes-sexual-refusal/

 

Wow.

 

Disgusting.

 

And then there's the other Gothard brother, who in December was accused of  this:

 

Well of course.  /facepalm

[Churchhoney]

Seriously.

 

Makes you wonder whether the Gothard bros were chewing the fat one day in their preteen years, when one of them said, "Hey, I know! When we grow up, let's start a 'religious group.' We can use it as a combination piggybank/escort service to satisfy all our needs and desires!"

[b2H]

Comparative religion is a subject I have always had an interest in, including the cults (i watch the FLDS stuff whenever it is on). This thread is certainly interesting from my viewpoint.

Are there any books on Comparative Religion or on cults that should make my must-read list? Although I am currently not working, books and airplanes go together very well and I would like to put together a reading list on this topic.

[Bella]

Are there any books on Comparative Religion or on cults that should make my must-read list? Although I am currently not working, books and airplanes go together very well and I would like to put together a reading list on this topic.

 

It's too bad you didn't post this a few days ago. Our lead mod, Rhondinella, just left on a short trip. She and her husband are both professors of religion and would undoubtedly have some great suggestions. When she gets back in a few days, you might ask again. In the mean time, I'm sure other posters will have recommendations.

[b2H]

It's too bad you didn't post this a few days ago. Our lead mod, Rhondinella, just left on a short trip. She and her husband are both professors of religion and would undoubtedly have some great suggestions. When she gets back in a few days, you might ask again. In the mean time, I'm sure other posters will have recommendations.

I could also PM her. Thanks!!!

Will take all recommendations.

Edited May 30, 2015 by b2H

[Churchhoney]

Comparative religion is a subject I have always had an interest in, including the cults (i watch the FLDS stuff whenever it is on). This thread is certainly interesting from my viewpoint.

Are there any books on Comparative Religion or on cults that should make my must-read list? Although I am currently not working, books and airplanes go together very well and I would like to put together a reading list on this topic.

 

Well, this won't help on a plane and it's not a book but a website, but have you ever looked at Mormon Stories? http://mormonstories.org/

 

Really excellent website full of life stories and analysis shared with the a 5th-generation Mormon and psychology grad student by mainstream Mormons -- including currently practicing Mormons, Mormon theologians, many who've struggled with problems between them and the church while staying in it, and many who've left or are in the process of leaving. Extra Reality TV connection: One of the stories -- described in a lengthy (four-hour-plus, I think) series of interviews -- is that of Benjy Schwimmer -- winner of the second season of the Fox show So You Think You Can Dance, who describes his long struggle to reconcile being a devoted Mormon and being gay.

 

A sholarly book on Mormons that I found really interesting is The Angel and the Beehive, by Armand Mauss, a scholar of religion and sociology and a practicing Mormon. The book explores Mormon history (and present) with respect to the church's attempts to assimilate but also to back away from mainstream culture. Mauss sees that dynamic as key to the study of all religions -- how much are you in the world and how much separate from it. -- And it's certainly an interesting dynamic in the Duggar saga, too!

 

Literature scholar Harold Bloom has a book about the religions with U.S. origins that I find really fascinating (but that I think most religion scholars think is the nutty ravings of an uninformed amateur!). It's called The American Religion and it expounds his theory that the American impulse is toward gnostic beliefs. His theory probably is the ravings of an uninformed amateur, but as another uninformed amateur I really enjoyed the basic look he gives at the many faiths that have originated in the United States. 

 

Another book that I enjoyed that's mostly about the made-or-remade-in-America religions is Religious Outsider and the Making of Americans by R. Laurence Moore. He writes about the tense relationships between the mainstream Protestants who long dominated this country and the other groups that have come along as religious-minority upstarts -- including not just the usually examined ones, such as the Mormons, but more recent groups as well, such as the Nation of Islam.

 

If you're interested in original sources, there's a wonderful book compiled and edited by an actual religion scholar, Laurie Maffly-Kipp, called American Scriptures: An Anthology of Sacred Writings. It includes interesting founding documents from sects like Christian Science as well as more individual "scriptural" writings by Americans, like Jefferson's re-do of the New Testament. (Wonder how the Gothard Seminar books would fit in here? )

 

Another book related to this topic but more about philosophies than religions (although Christian Science gets a lot of attention in it and some of the other philosophies have been cultlike) is One Simple Idea: How Positive Thinking Reshaped Modern Life, by Mitch Horowitz. It's an interesting exploration of the "self-help" nature of a lot of the beliefs and groups -- including Prosperity Gospel churches ant the like --  that have arisen since the 19th century and are super-common today. Gothard's stuff has appealed to many in part because of a self-help dynamic -- i.e., do these things and your life and your children's lives will be great. Interesting dynamic between religion as a belief system about the meaning and nature of life and of the universe and a belief system about WHAT IT CAN DO FOR ME!!! (which I guess is where a lot of the legalism comes in...)

 

There are a lot of interesting books on Scientology, which is a current fascination of mine. Beyond Belief, by Jenna Miscavige, niece of current Scientology leader David Miscavige, is one that I've recently enjoyed. It details the life of somebody born into the group and who eventually left it. It has some similarities to The Book of Mormon Girl, by Joanna Brooks, which I also enjoyed. Interesting takes on the long, slow painful process of leaving something that's woven into the core of your being.

 

There are lots of good books on Scientology. Going Clear, by Lawrence Wright, on which the recent movie was based, is a pretty good one.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Churchhoney

[Bella]

The Scientology books you noted are excellent, Churchhoney. I had a brush with Scientology a long time ago (consulted with a small business owned by a woman active in the church) and have been fascinated with it ever since.

 

When I think about the Duggar kids possibly leaving, I wonder if there might be a template in any of these stories. Unfortunately, there probably is not. However, Scientology and Gothardism have a number of things in common: isolation, us-against-them mentality, absolute need to follow designated leaders, draconian punishments, etc. 

 

Those who have broken out of Scientology usually have an ally in the form of a spouse or family member who has also questioned the religion. They have also come to the point of being unable to withstand or even witness further abuse.

 

Will that happen with any of the Duggars? That's what I keep looking for.

[zenme]

Heh. I was such a literally-minded child that when my grandfather took me to confession for the first time, I remember asking the priest if I really had to confess *all* my sins because if so he was going to be there for a while. He had to explain that I didn't need to account for every single instance in which I had ever been mean to my brother, failed to clean my room, or whatever.

 

My 3rd grade Catholic school teacher, a nun, told us that when we talk about others or or gossip, we kill someone's spirit. So, before my 1st Communion, I confessed murder to our parish priest.  He laughed very loudly, and you should have seen my fellow parishioners as I left the confessional.

[mbutterfly]

And then there's the other Gothard brother, who in December was accused of  this:

 

'State Attorney General Pam Bondi has sued a Naples businessman on racketeering and fraud charges, alleging he stole millions of dollars from victims nationwide — many of them elderly — by making false promises and offering stocks that turned out to be worthless....

 

'...Roger Nixon, 72,....a retired law enforcement officer who provided Bondi with all his records, compiled a list of roughly 200 victims he says lost about $5 million.

“He’s defrauded us out of our life savings,” said Nixon, adding that he lost $285,000 after meeting Gothard through his church a decade ago. “We’re flat broke. We didn’t have hot water for a year.”

 

'Nixon said Gothard used his brother’s church ministry “to lure victims in the name of Christianity.” Since then, Nixon contracted Lyme disease and can’t afford treatment, lost vision in one eye, had a stroke and had to undergo a heart bypass last Christmas that he can’t pay for.'

 

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/state-sues-naples-businessman-saying-he-bilked-elderly-people-out-of-millions_44739110

PAm Bondi better move fast. Maybe some people would be able to recover at least a decent percent of their losses. 

[melanie]

I just love reading these forums!  I have been busily reading and digesting everything over the past couple of weeks.  Thanks to everyone who posts here because I have learned so much and been refreshed by the courteous discourse which takes place here.  Much of that is due to the diligence of the moderators and I appreciate that so much!  

 

I have a few interesting perspectives which I will share at some point, but I would like to post about how I became interested in this unfolding drama and hopefully gain some wisdom from you.  I actually started researching the Duggas/19kac/ati, etc. about 2 weeks before this scandal broke.  The reason is because I have suspicions that a former friend and her family have become involved in this movement.  She has very little to do with me now although we became friends initially because we both homeschooled our children and were involved in some extracurricular activities with them together.  We never attended the same church and quite honestly religion never came up as a topic of conversation.  We are friends on Facebook and I started noticing some interesting posts she was making and began putting 2 and 2 together if you will.  

 

I would be interested in learning about how one goes about identifying people involved in ATI/IBLP and churches involved in this movement.  They seem so secretive about mentioning Gothard by name and do not share much about what they do.  Are there any telltale signs indicating involvement or are there other movements that you all know of that may be similar to this?  I could share specifics about what I have witnessed if that would be helpful.  My motive is pure curiosity.  My husband and I got caught up in a cult-like movement many years ago for a relatively short period of time and it was a real eye opener for me.  I am fascinated, like many of you, with the whole phenomena, and always hope to learn a little bit more about myself through the process.  

 

Thanks again!  

[HumblePi]

There's no doubt in my mind that Jim Bob and Michelle are a cult. They are no different than cults like the ones that Jim Jones, David Koresh or Charles Manson headed, They had that type of power. That's what a cult is and that's why cults are potentially dangerous to themselves and to others.

There are characteristics of any cult leaders. It's clear to me that Jim Bob Duggar is a cult leader. Here's some of the hallmarks of a cult leader. You be the judge.

 

    He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.
    Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.
    Demands blind unquestioned obedience.
    Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.
    Has a sense of entitlement - expecting to be treated special at all times.
    Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives putting others at financial risk.
    Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.
    Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.
    Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.
    Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.
    Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.
    Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.
    Makes members confess their sins or faults publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing   exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.
    Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.
    Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.
    Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to insure that he or she is being noticed by arriving late, using exotic clothing, over dramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.
    Has insisted in always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.
    Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others, communication is usually one-way in the form of dictates.
    Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.
    Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.
    When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.
    Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”
    Refers to non-members or non-believers in him as “the enemy.”
    Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.
    Believes himself to be omnipotent.
    Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.
    Is superficially charming.
    Habitually puts down others as inferior and only he is superior.
    Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.
    Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.
    Treats others with contempt and arrogance.
    Is constantly assessing for those who are a threat or those who revere him.
    The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.
    Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly - when he does he acts out with rage.
    Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.
    Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.
    Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.
    Rigid, unbending, or insensitive describes how this person thinks.
    Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.
    Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or outside world.
    Monitors and or restricts contact with family or outsiders.
    Works the least but demands the most.
    Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”
    Seems to be highly dependent of tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.
    Uses enforcers or sycophants to insure compliance from members or believers.
    Sees self as “unstoppable” perhaps has even said so.
    Conceals background or family which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.
    Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself – in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”
    Has taken away the freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life, and liberty of followers.
    Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.

 

"You can take your children to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, but if you’re blowing up at home, it will undermine your whole ministry."

“I really never had an anger problem until we had started having children,” Jim Bob said. “I realized that when we started having these kids and I started blowing up in anger to correct them, it was building a wall between me and my children.”

~ Jim Bob Duggar ~

Edited May 30, 2015 by HumblePi

[HumblePi]

My 3rd grade Catholic school teacher, a nun, told us that when we talk about others or or gossip, we kill someone's spirit. So, before my 1st Communion, I confessed murder to our parish priest.  He laughed very loudly, and you should have seen my fellow parishioners as I left the confessional.

That is so funny and so relatable. I was raised strict Catholic, Catholic grammar school and the whole mess. Talk about a cult.... so anyway we had to say our confession at the most every two weeks. How many sins does a 7 year old kid have?  so...anyway again, I still remember trying to come up with stuff to confess since we went as a whole class to the church and waited our  turn to go into the confessional. I'd sit and think 'hmm I can tell him that I had 'bad thoughts' or that I called my sister a 'snot', and what else could I 'confess'? What else did I do that was so bad that if I was killed crossing the street to get to church and was run over by a car and killed that I would be sent directly to Hell?

 

The bottom line here is that those 19 kids lived day and night with a cult that warped their minds. They were isolated through home schooling and basically had their minds molded into whatever Jim Bob wanted them to be.

 

Oh by the way, I got over all that Catholic guilt and Hellfire and brimstone stuff long ago.

[NextIteration]

Using the Lord's name in vain.  That was on top my 5 to use interchangeably with disobeying parents, being mean to my little sister and not doing chores.  We actually had 1st communion in 2nd grade and 1st confession in 3rd.  One year dispensation, ha!

[b2H]

Well, this won't help on a plane and it's not a book but a website, but have you ever looked at Mormon Stories? http://mormonstories.org/

 

Really excellent website full of life stories and analysis shared with the a 5th-generation Mormon and psychology grad student by mainstream Mormons -- including currently practicing Mormons, Mormon theologians, many who've struggled with problems between them and the church while staying in it, and many who've left or are in the process of leaving. Extra Reality TV connection: One of the stories -- described in a lengthy (four-hour-plus, I think) series of interviews -- is that of Benjy Schwimmer -- winner of the second season of the Fox show So You Think You Can Dance, who describes his long struggle to reconcile being a devoted Mormon and being gay.

 

A sholarly book on Mormons that I found really interesting is The Angel and the Beehive, by Armand Mauss, a scholar of religion and sociology and a practicing Mormon. The book explores Mormon history (and present) with respect to the church's attempts to assimilate but also to back away from mainstream culture. Mauss sees that dynamic as key to the study of all religions -- how much are you in the world and how much separate from it. -- And it's certainly an interesting dynamic in the Duggar saga, too!

 

Literature scholar Harold Bloom has a book about the religions with U.S. origins that I find really fascinating (but that I think most religion scholars think is the nutty ravings of an uninformed amateur!). It's called The American Religion and it expounds his theory that the American impulse is toward gnostic beliefs. His theory probably is the ravings of an uninformed amateur, but as another uninformed amateur I really enjoyed the basic look he gives at the many faiths that have originated in the United States. 

 

Another book that I enjoyed that's mostly about the made-or-remade-in-America religions is Religious Outsider and the Making of Americans by R. Laurence Moore. He writes about the tense relationships between the mainstream Protestants who long dominated this country and the other groups that have come along as religious-minority upstarts -- including not just the usually examined ones, such as the Mormons, but more recent groups as well, such as the Nation of Islam.

 

If you're interested in original sources, there's a wonderful book compiled and edited by an actual religion scholar, Laurie Maffly-Kipp, called American Scriptures: An Anthology of Sacred Writings. It includes interesting founding documents from sects like Christian Science as well as more individual "scriptural" writings by Americans, like Jefferson's re-do of the New Testament. (Wonder how the Gothard Seminar books would fit in here? )

 

Another book related to this topic but more about philosophies than religions (although Christian Science gets a lot of attention in it and some of the other philosophies have been cultlike) is One Simple Idea: How Positive Thinking Reshaped Modern Life, by Mitch Horowitz. It's an interesting exploration of the "self-help" nature of a lot of the beliefs and groups -- including Prosperity Gospel churches ant the like --  that have arisen since the 19th century and are super-common today. Gothard's stuff has appealed to many in part because of a self-help dynamic -- i.e., do these things and your life and your children's lives will be great. Interesting dynamic between religion as a belief system about the meaning and nature of life and of the universe and a belief system about WHAT IT CAN DO FOR ME!!! (which I guess is where a lot of the legalism comes in...)

 

There are a lot of interesting books on Scientology, which is a current fascination of mine. Beyond Belief, by Jenna Miscavige, niece of current Scientology leader David Miscavige, is one that I've recently enjoyed. It details the life of somebody born into the group and who eventually left it. It has some similarities to The Book of Mormon Girl, by Joanna Brooks, which I also enjoyed. Interesting takes on the long, slow painful process of leaving something that's woven into the core of your being.

 

There are lots of good books on Scientology. Going Clear, by Lawrence Wright, on which the recent movie was based, is a pretty good one.

About half of these are on iBooks, but this is a wonderful start. Thanks!!

[Churchhoney]

About half of these are on iBooks, but this is a wonderful start. Thanks!!

You're most welcome. Love sharing my obsessions!

[Wellfleet]

And then there's the other Gothard brother, who in December was accused of  this:

 

'State Attorney General Pam Bondi has sued a Naples businessman on racketeering and fraud charges, alleging he stole millions of dollars from victims nationwide — many of them elderly — by making false promises and offering stocks that turned out to be worthless....

 

'...Roger Nixon, 72,....a retired law enforcement officer who provided Bondi with all his records, compiled a list of roughly 200 victims he says lost about $5 million.

“He’s defrauded us out of our life savings,” said Nixon, adding that he lost $285,000 after meeting Gothard through his church a decade ago. “We’re flat broke. We didn’t have hot water for a year.”

 

'Nixon said Gothard used his brother’s church ministry “to lure victims in the name of Christianity.” Since then, Nixon contracted Lyme disease and can’t afford treatment, lost vision in one eye, had a stroke and had to undergo a heart bypass last Christmas that he can’t pay for.'

 

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/crime/state-sues-naples-businessman-saying-he-bilked-elderly-people-out-of-millions_44739110

 

Good grief, what a family. The Borgias without the fashion sense. These Gothard sibling stories have me wondering two things. What type of twisted, goofball tree did these 3 acorns fall from? And how much $$ did Boob fork over to old Bill over the years?  Who, BTW, I'm officially referring to as "old Bull" from now on.

[Rhetorica]

I checked "The Handmaid's Tale" ebook from the library last week. It was written close to forty years ago, I think. I've read it before and this is a terrible time for a re-read with today's news. It is a dystopian novel set in the not so distant future. A totalitarian Christian theocracy has overthrown the United States government and, you guessed it, women have no worth or rights. First clue is that all women's names are changed. A women is now named "Of someone" - a man. For example, the protagonist is named Offred, or of Fred. I will finish it even though I know the outcome but only if to fight against those who long for these things to come to pass.

[melanie]

HumblePi -- I am just curious b/c I have heard several people refer to the Roman Catholic Church as a cult and I just don't see it at all.  No isolation, no charismatic leader, no brainwashing (at least when i attended Catholic school I was taught critical thinking skills), they have doctrines and teachings on certain things like birth control, but no real "enforcement", no believing that they are the only ones going to heaven, no strict legalistic dress codes, etc.   

I just think that some reason should be given for referring to the RCC as such since I see no similarities.  Having been involved in a cult situation for a few years, I am pretty quick to pick up on cult-like behavior.  

It does sound like you attended a rather strict Catholic school (confession every 2 weeks) -- we only went twice a year once during advent and once during Lent, but still you were able to leave.  I don't know that the Duggar children will feel as free to leave their religion as many, many Catholics have over the years.  

[Julia]

The RC church before Vatican II was a very different organization than the current church, particularly in the US. The current Pope, happily, seems much more comfortable with that than the previous gentleman.

[GEML]

Plenty of children who grow up in cults do leave. One of the interesting things about cults is how short term most of them are. We only really know about the really successful ones. Most are only small time operations with a handful of followers that are enough to support a leader in a comfortable lifestyle that lasts a generation at the most.

Pick up a book such as CHURCHES THAT ABUSE and you might be surprised by how few you know and how quickly they rise and fall (this is a pre-1990's book I think, so it's a full generation after the 1960's explosion, but we've already had another full generation rise and fall since.)

[mbutterfly]

I could also PM her. Thanks!!!

Will take all recommendations.

And I hope you will share. Thanks in advance.

[Mindymoo]

HumblePi -- I am just curious b/c I have heard several people refer to the Roman Catholic Church as a cult and I just don't see it at all.  No isolation, no charismatic leader, no brainwashing (at least when i attended Catholic school I was taught critical thinking skills), they have doctrines and teachings on certain things like birth control, but no real "enforcement", no believing that they are the only ones going to heaven, no strict legalistic dress codes, etc.   

I just think that some reason should be given for referring to the RCC as such since I see no similarities.  Having been involved in a cult situation for a few years, I am pretty quick to pick up on cult-like behavior.  

It does sound like you attended a rather strict Catholic school (confession every 2 weeks) -- we only went twice a year once during advent and once during Lent, but still you were able to leave.  I don't know that the Duggar children will feel as free to leave their religion as many, many Catholics have over the years.  

I went to a Catholic school and was raised by a Catholic family, though I've been a dyed-in-the-wool atheist since I was about five years old. I wouldn't say that the Catholic Church is a cult. Perhaps that's because I'm really familiar with it, but mainstream Catholicism isn't up there with Gothardism, the FLDS, etc. in the least. Yeah, you're not supposed to use birth control, have in vitro fertilization, have sex before marriage, blah blah blah, but few actually follow that stuff. The pope, cardinals and bishops are figureheads and tend to skew conservative, but parish priests themselves are really a mixed bag, and that is who the flock really tends to listen to. The priest at my Busia's church, for example, refused to read the pamphlet that the bishop put out that was encouraging people to vote against allowing domestic partnerships for gay people. He said if they want to read it, you can find it in the back of the church. Only he just printed out one copy as a "screw you" to that line of thinking. He also teaches that anyone, regardless of religious belief or lack thereof, can go to heaven as long as they live a kind, good-natured, charitable life. Why? Because that's living in a Christ-like manner. Some churches have priests that are way more conservative, but you find really progressive and liberal ones like this guy too. But yeah, it's really not cultish, unless you're of the mind that every religion is a cult. The way they closed ranks around pederast priests is sickening, but as we're seeing more and more, this sadly happens in a lot of religions.

[JennyMominFL]

Just a historical/theological note on original sin is that not all of Christendom believes in that theory.  Orthodox (capital O) do not.  It originated with St. Augustine.  

It is not a teaching of Judaism either. 

[JennyMominFL]

I have a friend who lost someone at Jonestown.  Jonestown is one of my earlliest and most vivid memories. As such, I have read a lot about cults over the years.

IMO, this is the best website fot this

http://culteducation.com/

[melanie]

My religious upbringing is kind of a mixed bag.  I should clarify because I attended Catholic schools, but I was not Catholic.  My Granny was a non-practicing Catholic and my parents were "occasional" Baptists which means that there would be periods where we would go to church every week and periods where we watched Star Trek on Sunday mornings instead.   I mainly went to a Catholic school near my house because my parents wanted to avoid the "forced bussing" mandates that were happening in the city where I was raised.  I have to say that while I did have to sit through religion classes and going to mass once a week, they were always very considerate and respectful of my different beliefs and I tried to be considerate and respectful of theirs.  I actually did not have real "beliefs" at that point, I just knew that I wasn't Catholic.  

I just would not describe the Catholic church as I experienced it as any more cult-like than the Baptist church I was a part of growing up.  However, I have been involved with a church that is most definitely a cult in my experience.  So, if you consider all religions to be cults then I think you need a different descriptor for movements like the FLDS, Gothardism, that IOCC that another poster spoke of, etc. that do focus on isolation, fear, and brainwashing.  

One of the most insidious parts of the cult that we were a part of was the fact that they encouraged members not to fellowship or socialize with non-members at all.  They would monopolize all of our time so that our only friends were in that church.  They would be subtle about it, but discourage relationships with even family members that were not members.  This is what I worry about the most with the Duggar children because that is all that they know.  If they leave, they are not just losing their religion, but they are also losing their family and friends.  They may not be invited back for holidays or visits or important events such as weddings and funerals.  They also do not have the freedom to think through these things or even talk about them because they might be "outed" to their parents and sent away for more indoctrination.  I had my husband and children that I could discuss things with that I found inappropriate.  I had someone that I felt comfortable talking to about leaving and how we should go about it.  If I had been raised in that situation I don't know that I would have been strong enough to leave.  It was hard enough after 3 1/2 years.  I pray that they are stronger than I was.  

[GEML]

I don't know that they would be shunned completely. The Keller children aren't. So that's hopeful.

[melanie]

I don't know that they would be shunned completely either.  I hope I did not imply that I did know.  I was only speaking about my personal experience and projecting potential stumbling blocks to these children being able to break away from this lifestyle.  The fear may not even be rational, but it can feel very real to someone involved in such groups/families.  

[Happyfatchick]

I checked "The Handmaid's Tale" ebook from the library last week. It was written close to forty years ago, I think. I've read it before and this is a terrible time for a re-read with today's news. It is a dystopian novel set in the not so distant future. A totalitarian Christian theocracy has overthrown the United States government and, you guessed it, women have no worth or rights. First clue is that all women's names are changed. A women is now named "Of someone" - a man. For example, the protagonist is named Offred, or of Fred. I will finish it even though I know the outcome but only if to fight against those who long for these things to come to pass.

Oh my gosh!!! I am FOREVER comparing Duggs to Amish, and guess what? The Amish have a crazy habit of always referring to the wife by her husband. I have a tribe of aunts we ALWAYS refer to by the husband. There's Bill Mary, Enos Mary, Jake Suzanne and Eli Katie. That.is.cray cray!

[KittyS]

I didn't know that Gothard's brothers were just as slimy as he is. There must be some sort of a charisma gene in that family. Too bad they used it to abuse their power and take advantage of others.

I really hope Gothard and the Quiverful movement come up in the Fox interview. So many people think the Duggars are just a big entertaining family and don't know the underlying reasons for their beliefs. On the surface big families, modesty, and frugality seem like harmless things, but the cult behind the family is truly disturbing. Most of the people I know who love the Duggars have NO idea about Gothard.

[heckkitty]

 

 

Charmed1,

I've been lurking for awhile, but decided to jump in and join the conversation.

I knew you were referring to the International Church of Christ, by the way you described your experience. I'm a former ICOC member. REVEAL.org is a good resource. I wrote a paper for them about my experiences called The Death of A Dream. I've read a little bit about Gothard, and from what I can see, his teachings are quite a bit different from the ICOC, but where there's a convergence is in the legalism and control. A focus on externals. I remember the ICOC emphasizing instant obedience from their children ("obeying the first time"), and that reminds me of Gothardism. The ICOC, however, is not at all opposed to birth control, but then again, women have leadership positions in the church, and large families would hinder evangelism and tithing to the church.

 

Wow, DesertFrank, I could have written your post, except of course I didn't write your paper.  Nice to know there are other escapees out there.  I definitely see parallels between the ICoC and Gothard.  Especially the control part.  That's also where I first heard the term "sin in the camp". And I strongly suspect there of being at least some of the kind of thing the Duggies have going on now, but I can't prove it.

[Potato511]

Comparative religion is a subject I have always had an interest in, including the cults (i watch the FLDS stuff whenever it is on). This thread is certainly interesting from my viewpoint.

Are there any books on Comparative Religion or on cults that should make my must-read list? Although I am currently not working, books and airplanes go together very well and I would like to put together a reading list on this topic.

Check out The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power

[clarkbar]

I think it is unfortunate that so many now think of Christianity negatively because of some of the extreme beliefs receiving publicity.  I am a Lutheran and identify myself as a Progressive Christian.  I put myself with those who believe in a faith that does not seek prosperity but instead looks for ways to help those most in need.  It's a tough place to be these days, because Christianity has received a bad rap because of those who, to my way of thinking, are not truly demonstrating what I consider to be a Christian attitude.  Today was the first day I read through this thread, and I am most appreciative of the diversity of thought I've seen here.  I "confess" to a fascination with this family, but mostly I pray that the victims in this family will find healing and freedom.  Overall, the whole thing just leaves me sad, but also grateful for a church community that is accepting and welcoming.

[Rhondinella]

I could also PM her. Thanks!!!

Will take all recommendations.

 

Yes, do feel free to PM me.  I am on the road, but I should have some internet access occasionally.  Neither I nor my husband are experts on the subject of Comparative Religions by any stretch (most of what we know is about Christianity) but we might be able to give some guidance.

[SomePity1066]

There's no doubt in my mind that Jim Bob and Michelle are a cult. They are no different than cults like the ones that Jim Jones, David Koresh or Charles Manson headed, They had that type of power. That's what a cult is and that's why cults are potentially dangerous to themselves and to others.

There are characteristics of any cult leaders. It's clear to me that Jim Bob Duggar is a cult leader. Here's some of the hallmarks of a cult leader. You be the judge.

 

    He has a grandiose idea of who he is and what he can achieve.

    Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, or brilliance.

    Demands blind unquestioned obedience.

    Requires excessive admiration from followers and outsiders.

    Has a sense of entitlement - expecting to be treated special at all times.

    Is exploitative of others by asking for their money or that of relatives putting others at financial risk.

    Is arrogant and haughty in his behavior or attitude.

    Has an exaggerated sense of power (entitlement) that allows him to bend rules and break laws.

    Takes sexual advantage of members of his sect or cult.

    Sex is a requirement with adults and sub adults as part of a ritual or rite.

    Is hypersensitive to how he is seen or perceived by others.

    Publicly devalues others as being inferior, incapable, or not worthy.

    Makes members confess their sins or faults publicly subjecting them to ridicule or humiliation while revealing   exploitable weaknesses of the penitent.

    Has ignored the needs of others, including: biological, physical, emotional, and financial needs.

    Is frequently boastful of accomplishments.

    Needs to be the center of attention and does things to distract others to insure that he or she is being noticed by arriving late, using exotic clothing, over dramatic speech, or by making theatrical entrances.

    Has insisted in always having the best of anything (house, car, jewelry, clothes) even when others are relegated to lesser facilities, amenities, or clothing.

    Doesn’t seem to listen well to needs of others, communication is usually one-way in the form of dictates.

    Haughtiness, grandiosity, and the need to be controlling is part of his personality.

    Behaves as though people are objects to be used, manipulated or exploited for personal gain.

    When criticized he tends to lash out not just with anger but with rage.

    Anyone who criticizes or questions him is called an “enemy.”

    Refers to non-members or non-believers in him as “the enemy.”

    Acts imperious at times, not wishing to know what others think or desire.

    Believes himself to be omnipotent.

    Has “magical” answers or solutions to problems.

    Is superficially charming.

    Habitually puts down others as inferior and only he is superior.

    Has a certain coldness or aloofness about him that makes others worry about who this person really is and or whether they really know him.

    Is deeply offended when there are perceived signs of boredom, being ignored or of being slighted.

    Treats others with contempt and arrogance.

    Is constantly assessing for those who are a threat or those who revere him.

    The word “I” dominates his conversations. He is oblivious to how often he references himself.

    Hates to be embarrassed or fail publicly - when he does he acts out with rage.

    Doesn’t seem to feel guilty for anything he has done wrong nor does he apologize for his actions.

    Believes he possesses the answers and solutions to world problems.

    Believes himself to be a deity or a chosen representative of a deity.

    Rigid, unbending, or insensitive describes how this person thinks.

    Tries to control others in what they do, read, view, or think.

    Has isolated members of his sect from contact with family or outside world.

    Monitors and or restricts contact with family or outsiders.

    Works the least but demands the most.

    Has stated that he is “destined for greatness” or that he will be “martyred.”

    Seems to be highly dependent of tribute and adoration and will often fish for compliments.

    Uses enforcers or sycophants to insure compliance from members or believers.

    Sees self as “unstoppable” perhaps has even said so.

    Conceals background or family which would disclose how plain or ordinary he is.

    Doesn’t think there is anything wrong with himself – in fact sees himself as perfection or “blessed.”

    Has taken away the freedom to leave, to travel, to pursue life, and liberty of followers.

    Has isolated the group physically (moved to a remote area) so as to not be observed.

 

"You can take your children to church Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night, but if you’re blowing up at home, it will undermine your whole ministry."

“I really never had an anger problem until we had started having children,” Jim Bob said. “I realized that when we started having these kids and I started blowing up in anger to correct them, it was building a wall between me and my children.”

~ Jim Bob Duggar ~

HumblePi - Brilliant post ! A keeper and a treasure. So well said, well-researched, and frightening. JB's anger problem has been thiny-veiled at best, but his quote puts the icing on the cake. Self-serving, selfish, narcissist with a mean streak to be reckoned with. What an absolute asshole...

 

Those poor kids.

[NextIteration]

I think it is unfortunate that so many now think of Christianity negatively because of some of the extreme beliefs receiving publicity.

 

As a recovered Catholc, atheist-lite agnostic, I don't think a lot about mainline Christianity or any other religions.  I probably admire Buddhism the most, but I abhor all fundamentalism.  I admire people their faith it seems to give them a stoicism and grace that I feel that I'm lacking, my grandmother was the most devout Catholic person I knew, she went to Mass every weekday at 5 a.m. before she went to work, she was the most beatific I've ever experienced and the person in my life that I admire the most.  My belief system about religions evolved into an understanding that religion is a reflection of culture, it very much depends on where in the world you are born and to whom you are born unless it is adopted later in life.

 

We made the decision to teach our children about all religions giving them the opportunity to visit different churches, synagogues, temples, etc. and the choice to celebrate and adopt any religion that they chose, we did not want to indoctrinate them in any way.  We ended up with one agnostic and one atheist at this point, but they both know that we'd be accepting of any choice they made.

 

I'm well aware of all the good that Progressive Christianity does, and I find it admirable and very Christ-like.

 

eta: because it was bugging me that I used "strict" instead of what I should have used, devout.

Edited June 3, 2015 by NextIteration

[GEML]

Well, I think there is a lot to be said for Fundamentalism. For one thing, I grew up in it before it was exploited by politics, and that makes a huge difference. There really is something very wonderful, in an age of uncertainty, to know things. Note everyone wants to hear how mysterious or uncertain or how we will have to wait until we get to Heaven to know the answer to X. Fundamentalism often often answers those questions not with metaphysics, but with action. We dress this way. We gather together this way. We break bread together this way. We cry together this way. We sing these songs. We pray. The answers are something to do.

It's a practical religion for practical people. The word has been corrupted in the media and even with churches themselves the past 40 years, as we've used it to mean extremist, but at its heart, Fundamentalists are those who put their simple belief into actions, often outside of the public eye. They are counter cultural. They are the remnant that remains as traditions pass away.

I'm grateful for my time with them. I learned a lot - about God and scripture and myself. But I couldn't stay.

[Churchhoney]

Actual scholars and serious thinkers, avert your eyes from this post. I expect you'll be rightly appalled by my fourth-grade take on the good discussion that's going here, but I'm trying to work out for myself more of what differentiates cults from belief systems we consider legitimate.

 

And I guess I think that iIt's generally not the beliefs but the messed-up people that make religions, philosophies, and political, economic, personal-psychology and other belief systems into cults and, thus, into problem, I think. At the core, pretty much all such things are serious attempts to make sense of the world and develop and promulgate good and useful ways to live. Because that's what most people want to do.

 

But it's also clear that a person with out-of-control power-and-greed urges can take pretty much any belief system that's ever been invented and turn it into a tool to work their will and hurt and enslave others. That's when they turn into cults, as power-hunters turn up the volume on characteristics of the belief system that will play into other people's weaknesses and fears and use their charisma to reel others in. This is where I guess cults like ATI fall. They piggyback on other belief systems -- in this case, Protestant belief -- but constitute a take on them designed to bring out lockstep marching, blind adherence to ideas and other dangerous human tendencies.

 

Then, of course, you've got some people who create belief systems for the sole -- or at least the primary -- purpose of serving their own power-and-greed urges. Those are the ones that are cults from the outset and altogether, like Scientology. Even those, though, usually have some good core ideas and aspirations, because you need those to draw other people in, and the people who devise cults are generally not stupid. I would bet that, for Joseph Smith, Mormonism was this kind of cult from the get-go. I could be utterly off base and he may have really believed in those tablets, but given what I've read I expect that, deep down, he really invented it to get power, and maybe money, for himself. But it's a really interesting example to me, because he also infused it with some good and useful stuff -- and enough of those for his cult to persist and spread and actually (I think I would argue) become an actual religion that's lasted for nearly 200 years now, not dependent on a charismatic leader.

[GEML]

I also think you can take a perfectly ordinary mainstream faith and bring in a charismatic leader and turn a small group within it into a cult. And it can be years until the hierarchy realizes how far that group has veered off course. I can think of one denomination in particular that has had several offshoots like this, but is a very excellent church in and of itself. Giving churches autonomy opens them up for this, but ruling them with an iron hand has consequences too.

[Churchhoney]

I also think you can take a perfectly ordinary mainstream faith and bring in a charismatic leader and turn a small group within it into a cult. And it can be years until the hierarchy realizes how far that group has veered off course. I can think of one denomination in particular that has had several offshoots like this, but is a very excellent church in and of itself. Giving churches autonomy opens them up for this, but ruling them with an iron hand has consequences too.

 

Oh, good point. I missed that one, but now that you mention it an example that a family member of mine was involved in comes to mind right away.

[mbutterfly]

Well, I think there is a lot to be said for Fundamentalism. For one thing, I grew up in it before it was exploited by politics, and that makes a huge difference. There really is something very wonderful, in an age of uncertainty, to know things. Note everyone wants to hear how mysterious or uncertain or how we will have to wait until we get to Heaven to know the answer to X. Fundamentalism often often answers those questions not with metaphysics, but with action. We dress this way. We gather together this way. We break bread together this way. We cry together this way. We sing these songs. We pray. The answers are something to do.

It's a practical religion for practical people. The word has been corrupted in the media and even with churches themselves the past 40 years, as we've used it to mean extremist, but at its heart, Fundamentalists are those who put their simple belief into actions, often outside of the public eye. They are counter cultural. They are the remnant that remains as traditions pass away.

I'm grateful for my time with them. I learned a lot - about God and scripture and myself. But I couldn't stay.

Thank you for this. Early in life I knew so many lovely fundamentalist families. Since my parents had purposely turned their backs on organized religion, I looked at the fundie families and thought how lovely it would be to have what seemed to be a solid, easy to understand set of values and practices. I began my relationship with Jesus by studying -- pretty academic stuff. Now I'm very grown up and fine with my own faith community. But now I'm saddened by what seems to be pressure upon my fundamentalist and evangelical friends to toe a very narrow political line on so many issues (guns, prosperity theology, political chauvinism, English-only) that do not truly relate to the fundamental teachings in the Bible. 

[Vaysh]

I will never stop being curious as to how this group of people explain people who are born intersex. If anyone in the know could explain (in the religion thread perhaps?) I would be most grateful.

[ZoloftBlob]

2 minutes ago

 

I will never stop being curious as to how this group of people explain people who are born intersex. If anyone in the know could explain (in the religion thread perhaps?) I would be most grateful.

 

I'm not religious but here goes.

 

Intersex is essentially someone with an actual physical abnormality in the genitals or gonads. A girl with an enlarged clitoris or a boy with micropenis or a hypospadia are kids with physical problems, like kids with clubfeet or spina bifida. If you follow the "God did it" theory, then God chose these people to have these problems for a reason.

 

Transgenderism, in contrast (and please understand, I don't subscribe to the religious viewpoint, I personally think its hormonal, and happens in the womb) is a person who has no physical genital abnormalities but *thinks* they are the other sex. The more fundie sorts (and not all, and its not just Christians) assume that its really just a form of homosexuality, and a choice.

 

Again, these aren't my views, I've just heard it explained a few times.

[galax-arena]

I think it is unfortunate that so many now think of Christianity negatively because of some of the extreme beliefs receiving publicity.

You might be interested in the book unChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks about Christianity...and Why It Matters by David Kinnaman. It's a book written by an evangelical for evangelicals, and as a Progressive Christian you might therefore not entirely agree with his stances on certain hot-button subjects - I definitely didn't, especially with respect to topics like homosexuality and abortion - but it still makes for some fascinating reading. Although, I'm not sure how effective his book was in reaching the audience it needed to reach; to me, it seems like people who are amenable to his message probably don't need to read the book in the first place, while those who could use a swift kick in the pants won't listen. 

[questionfear]

Pulling a discussion about fringes of different religions over from the Josh and Anna thread [basically, there was mention of Amish, Orthodox Jews, and fundies like the duggars]

But neither does Gothardism reflect Protestant Fundamentalism in general. It always comes down the fringe sects. Even the Amish have their fringe sects within their subculture.

All that is true, and here's where I feel like an outsider understanding Christianity as a non-Christian. When people conflate gothardism with Orthodox Jews, it bothers me because that's like comparing gothardism to all Protestants. My understanding of Christianity is that there's Catholics and then Protestants, under which the various sects exist (I know this vastly oversimplifies a very complex web of religions, but that's kind of how I understand it in broad strokes).

Comparatively Judaism is fairly simple. For a long time there were just Jews. Then there were Reform Jews, who sought to integrate the religion with more modern traditions. The traditional Jews became Orthodox. Then the Conservative movement sought to bridge the gap between Orthodox Jews and reform Jews. There's also reconstructionist which sort of tries to bridge conservative, reform, and from what little encounter I've had with them, a touch of hippie-crunchiness. The only area of Judaism where you see any analog to fundamentalism is in Orthodox Judaism, and even then it's usually in the very, very traditional Hasidic sects.

To give you some idea: I have a grandmother who is technically a conservative Jew but is effectively almost orthodox. I also have several orthodox cousins on both sides of my family. My orthodox cousins did not blink an eye at showing up for my big gay wedding to a non-Jew (we did have a Jewish wedding however, with a rabbi and a ketubah and chuppah). My grandmother loves my wife like her own flesh and blood. It's entirely possible to be an Orthodox Jew and be supportive and loving.

In contrast, the fringy subset the Duggars hail from seems like that would never happen. When I read and hear about all of those fundamentalist groups, all I see are places that demand the world be as they see it, not as it is. Judaism is much more about "live how you want the world to be, and place a peaceful world where families care for each other and the earth above all else". The biggest thing I took away from 12 years of Hebrew school was Tikkun Olam, Hebrew for repairing the world-not by enforcing my moral values on the world, but by being a force for good, helping others, treating the earth with respect, etc.

It just seems to me that there's no trace of that in the fundie circles.

And that's my meandering post about why I don't understand fundamentalist Christianity, and why all but the most absolutely fringey Orthodox Jews have little in common with people like the Duggars.

[Bella]

My grossly oversimplified understanding of what you just said, questionfear, is that any comparison of the extreme fundamentalist Christian fringe with Orthodox Judaism is flawed because it's a comparison of a small slice of Christianity with a large slice of Judaism. It also strikes me as an issue of not having the right terms for the discussion.

 

I did work with a fringey Orthodox Jew once, and I felt like she thought that I, in my okay-whatever lapsed Catholic way, was beyond the pale. She only seemed comfortable around people like herself, and in that regard she was indeed a bit like the Duggars. But most of the people I know who are Orthodox just seem to observe more rules than do the Reform and Conservative Jews I've known.

 

Anyway, I like your explanation - thanks.

[GEML]

If you had a chance to read about the Protestant Anabaptist movement, (Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, Shaker, Harmonists, Amarna and many other type subsets) you would likely have a very different feeling. Gothardism is only one of a dozens of types of American fundamentalisms. And strictly speaking, until a very few years ago, even those versions of Fundamentalists did not even vote. It's only been within my lifetime that Fundamentalists have become politicized. (And they are still not fully reliable Republican voters, which is why Josh had a job.) Many fundamentalists have a much more peaceful outlook.

I don't think it's unfair to compare fundamentalists of any religion because we ARE talking about fringe groups. There are fringe Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Jewish and Mormons. Because Protestantism isn't an actual religion, we tend to break it down - there are fringe Anabaptists, Baptists, Calvinists, evangelicals, etc.

What every group has in common is a stricter set of rules than the larger, more integrated religion that bears the same name. To ensure the rules, the group is almost always more focused on controlling its followers using a mixture of pride on living a "better" way and some fear that not living this way will result in some sort of price.

I want to make it clear that I mean absolutely nothing disparaging by using the word fundamentalist. Millions of people have found peace, productivity and purpose in the fundamentalist world that they never would have found outside of it. The fundamentalist world, with its rules, order and answers gives many people the structure they need to thrive.

Without fundamentalists, many religions never would have survived. I realize that would be fine with many, but I love my religion, and would be sorry if it were lost. I'm grateful for those who do manage to live it daily better than I do.

Edited June 1, 2015 by GEML

[questionfear]

My grossly oversimplified understanding of what you just said, questionfear, is that any comparison of the extreme fundamentalist Christian fringe with Orthodox Judaism is flawed because it's a comparison of a small slice of Christianity with a large slice of Judaism. It also strikes me as an issue of not having the right terms for the discussion.

 

I did work with a fringey Orthodox Jew once, and I felt like she thought that I, in my okay-whatever lapsed Catholic way, was beyond the pale. She only seemed comfortable around people like herself, and in that regard she was indeed a bit like the Duggars. But most of the people I know who are Orthodox just seem to observe more rules than do the Reform and Conservative Jews I've known.

 

Anyway, I like your explanation - thanks.

Yes, you nailed what I was trying to say! Exactly-the closest term you could have for an analog to fundamental Christianity isn't really orthodox, but Hasidim. Using them interchangeably isn't fair to either group, it's the wrong definition.

  

If you had a chance to read about the Protestant Anabaptist movement, (Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite, Shaker, Harmonists, Amarna and many other type subsets) you would likely have a very different feeling. Gothardism is only one of a dozens of types of American fundamentalisms. And strictly speaking, until a very few years ago, even those versions of Fundamentalists did not even vote. It's only been within my lifetime that Fundamentalists have become politicized. (And they are still not fully reliable Republican voters, which is why Josh had a job.) Many fundamentalists have a much more peaceful outlook.

I don't think it's unfair to compare fundamentalists of any religion because we ARE talking about fringe groups. There are fringe Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Jewish and Mormons. Because Protestantism isn't an actual religion, we tend to break it down - there are fringe Anabaptists, Baptists, Calvinists, evangelicals, etc.

What every group has in common is a stricter set of rules than the larger, more integrated religion that bears the same name. To ensure the rules, the group is almost always more focused on controlling its followers using a mixture of pride on living a "better" way and some fear that not living this way will result in some sort of price.

I want to make it clear that I mean absolutely nothing disparaging by using the word fundamentalist. Millions of people have found peace, productivity and purpose in the fundamentalist world that they never would have found outside of it. The fundamentalist world, with its rules, order and answers gives many people the structure they need to thrive.

Without fundamentalists, many religions never would have survived. I realize that would be fine with many, but I love my religion, and would be sorry if it were lost. I'm grateful for those who do manage to live it daily better than I do.

If I am understanding you right, you see fundamentalism as just deep religious devotion, is that right? For me, that's just being religious. I know reform Jews who keep kosher, for example, but I wouldn't tell them they were fundamentalists unless I had a quick exit. There's s connotation to the word fundamentalist that just doesn't translate well to Judaism in my opinion, unless you're specifically targeting Hasidim (who really are a whole other religion to even Modern Orthodox). Whether it's because of the connection to the Christian religions or just a more modern taint due to the Duggars et al, it doesn't feel like a word that applies to any mainstream variations of Judaism. I get that you can be fundie without being bigoted fundie like the Duggars, intellectually, but the word has a lot of baggage these days.

Especially if you've been on the receiving end of what some of the hate-filled fundamentalists have to say (either indirectly, like when someone like Michelle Duggar campaigns against glbt rights, or directly, like the time a coworker at Panera Bread told me I had the devil in my soul, she prayed for me nightly, and she gave me a book on how to become an ex gay so I didn't go to hell-the cover had the gayest guy and butchiest woman I have ever seen awkwardly holding hands)

[Churchhoney]

Pulling a discussion about fringes of different religions over from the Josh and Anna thread [basically, there was mention of Amish, Orthodox Jews, and fundies like the duggars]

All that is true, and here's where I feel like an outsider understanding Christianity as a non-Christian. When people conflate gothardism with Orthodox Jews, it bothers me because that's like comparing gothardism to all Protestants. My understanding of Christianity is that there's Catholics and then Protestants, under which the various sects exist (I know this vastly oversimplifies a very complex web of religions, but that's kind of how I understand it in broad strokes).

Comparatively Judaism is fairly simple. For a long time there were just Jews. Then there were Reform Jews, who sought to integrate the religion with more modern traditions. The traditional Jews became Orthodox. Then the Conservative movement sought to bridge the gap between Orthodox Jews and reform Jews. There's also reconstructionist which sort of tries to bridge conservative, reform, and from what little encounter I've had with them, a touch of hippie-crunchiness. The only area of Judaism where you see any analog to fundamentalism is in Orthodox Judaism, and even then it's usually in the very, very traditional Hasidic sects.

To give you some idea: I have a grandmother who is technically a conservative Jew but is effectively almost orthodox. I also have several orthodox cousins on both sides of my family. My orthodox cousins did not blink an eye at showing up for my big gay wedding to a non-Jew (we did have a Jewish wedding however, with a rabbi and a ketubah and chuppah). My grandmother loves my wife like her own flesh and blood. It's entirely possible to be an Orthodox Jew and be supportive and loving.

In contrast, the fringy subset the Duggars hail from seems like that would never happen. When I read and hear about all of those fundamentalist groups, all I see are places that demand the world be as they see it, not as it is. Judaism is much more about "live how you want the world to be, and place a peaceful world where families care for each other and the earth above all else". The biggest thing I took away from 12 years of Hebrew school was Tikkun Olam, Hebrew for repairing the world-not by enforcing my moral values on the world, but by being a force for good, helping others, treating the earth with respect, etc.

It just seems to me that there's no trace of that in the fundie circles.

And that's my meandering post about why I don't understand fundamentalist Christianity, and why all but the most absolutely fringey Orthodox Jews have little in common with people like the Duggars.

 

Thanks for this interesting exploration. ....

 

I wonder whether we partly get this impression of Protestant fundamentalists because the ones we most often hear about aren't just fundamentalist believers but also are heavily involved in some other cultish subgroup whose beliefs and activities go way beyond what we'd consider truly bible-derived and into legalistic tangles created by Gothard and his ilk. Quiverfull thinking and some others come to mind as well. These things aren't so much fundamentalism as they're fundamentalism PLUS -- fundamentalism layered over with some other set of beliefs and practices that were devised to attract the most fearful and control-freakish of the group. Plus, in a culture where Protestants have always been the big kahunas, even the fringiest Protestants tend to feel entitled to trumpet their beliefs and judge others for not adhering to them.

 

Seems to me that the emergence of such groups has happened less frequently among Orthodox Jews and whatever such groups exist are probably much much smaller and much much quieter, since Jews are, after all, a minority and sometimes distrusted?  So when we think of Orthodox Judaism, we think of the religious tradition and the cultural tradition that most Orthodox represent. But when we think of Protestant fundamentalism, front and center are a lot of these cult-y groups, so the fringe looks as if it's representative of the whole?