Gimme That Old Time Religion

[hlemommy]

For a Christian which I am, I know the rapture will happen, I don't know when but I know it will. The bible tells me so! I've done some research in the few days I've been reading comments in here, Kent hovind it think that's his last name, anyway he writes books and whatnot on creation/evolution and Lee strobel, he was a atheist who got mad when his wife became a Christian and he set out to prove God isn't real. He wrote several books and gave his life to God bc he couldn't prove he isn't real. The bible gives eye witness accounts, it's historically accurate and archeological accurate.

While I was at the Christian book store today talking to the owner about the duggars I felt compelled to tell him about this forum and the things that was said and he was awesome! You don't have to believe in God personally I'm not going to push the bible on anyone, but I don't appreciate the person who called me a idiot because I believe, I love to learn about other ppl and their religion and if you tell me you worship a horse (just an example) I'm not going to poke at you and tell you how wrong you are, and I'd like the same curtsy.

Rant over

[GEML]

Has anyone here called anyone an idiot? I'm actually a pretty devout Christian myself, so it certainly wasn't me. I find this board to be pretty respectful of religious belief overall, but then, I'm not looking to be insulted.

[hlemommy]

GEML I would have to look for the post either here or on the jill and Derek thread a few pages back when we first started talking about religion. but yeah I was called an idiot for believing

Typo there.. trying to do this in the dark with one hand

Edited April 14, 2015 by hlemommy

[GEML]

Well, I'm very sorry about that. If I had been reading more closely I would have said something. Plenty of us are believers here too!

[jcbrown]

I would never call anyone "a idiot."

[kalamac]

I'm a non-believer but I try to be respectful of everyone and their choices, and in return I hope they're respectful of mine.

[Sew Sumi]

Wasn't me. I've been here forever, and I think everyone does a great job of respecting values that they may not hold. 

 

Also know that talking about religion is not a personal attack. If you're reading a Duggar thread, religion is going to be discussed. A lot. Calling one's views idiotic is not the same as calling a person an idiot. Message boards can be tricky like that. 

 

Let's talk about the Duggars and their foray into Christian Zionism (ie. Israel David). :D

Edited April 14, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[JenCarroll]

GEML I would have to look for the post either here or on the jill and Derek thread a few pages back when we first started talking about religion. but yeah I was called an idiot for believing

Typo there.. trying to do this in the dark with one hand

If there is a specific post where someone said that you, personally, are an idiot, you should report that to the mods. There's a button for that on every post.

[GEML]

I think it's interesting that Jill and Derick have gone down this road. Sure, it's going to be part of the general Fundy philosophy, but it's not emphasized by Gothard as far as I know. I think this is more Derick than Jill.

[galax-arena]

I think it's interesting that Jill and Derick have gone down this road. Sure, it's going to be part of the general Fundy philosophy, but it's not emphasized by Gothard as far as I know. I think this is more Derick than Jill.

I had a lot of conservative Christian friends who were almost invariably on the side of Israel, and I usually got the sense that it wasn't due to any sincere belief in the part that Jewish people were meant to play in the Rapture, but because they didn't like those evil brown Muslim terrorists. Maybe the two were connected at the root, i.e. those Palestinian Muslims are bad because they're trying to destroy Israel and Israel is important for the Rapture, etc., but I honestly never heard any talk about the Rapture and don't think it was something that they gave any serious thought to.

[GEML]

To be honest, I've spent 40+ years in this world and I've found it to be pro-Judaism, not anti-Muslim until 9/11 whipped people up. Even after Iran, it was still pro-Jew. Muslims, in this world, for better or worse, are see as children of Abraham through Ishmael, and this have a place in the world. There was a reason, until 9/11, many churches were still sending missionaries and setting up schools in these areas in hopes of reconciliation.

[galax-arena]

Well, yeah, I wasn't denying that in the past there might have been more emphasis on being genuinely pro-Jew (as opposed to being pro-Jew because you were anti-Muslim), but it's clear that 9/11 managed to make things majorly shift focus.

 

The Southern Baptist folks I ran with in college - I was a freshman when 9/11 happened - weren't, like, frothing at the mouth about Muslims the way you see a lot of IFB pastors do on youtube, but in retrospect there was a lot of implicit prejudice. 

 

ETA: The other day I found a couple of my old college friends on twitter and it seems like they've doubled down. Sigh. 

Edited April 14, 2015 by galax-arena

[Micks Picks]

OTOH there were muslims celebrating in the streets after 9/11, denying it had anything to do with anyone of their religion, while chanting Death to America.

[galax-arena]

OTOH there were muslims celebrating in the streets after 9/11, denying it had anything to do with anyone of their religion, while chanting Death to America.

Uh, okay? What does that have to do with anything? No one's denying that there are Islamic extremists out there, or else, well, 9/11 (or ISIS, to use a more recent current event) wouldn't have happened at all. What I'm pointing out is the generalization of all Muslims as evil brown terrorists that occurred as a result.

Edited April 14, 2015 by galax-arena

[Vaysh]

OTOH there were muslims celebrating in the streets after 9/11, denying it had anything to do with anyone of their religion, while chanting Death to America.

 

Wasn't that clip rather resoundingly debunked? The people in it were interviewed a while after and they said they were basically offered free food and drink and told to look happy and dance. They were quite horrified about how they'd been used in propaganda. It was in a lot of news outlets, kind of like how it turned out that the iconic picture of Iraqis tearing down the statue of Saddam was choreographed to the nth degree (note to propagandists, don't stage your movie sets next to a tower filled with journalists and photographers). One thing learned from 9/11 and the following wars - don't trust anything you see or hear. ;)

[mbutterfly]

Wasn't that clip rather resoundingly debunked? The people in it were interviewed a while after and they said they were basically offered free food and drink and told to look happy and dance. They were quite horrified about how they'd been used in propaganda. It was in a lot of news outlets, kind of like how it turned out that the iconic picture of Iraqis tearing down the statue of Saddam was choreographed to the nth degree (note to propagandists, don't stage your movie sets next to a tower filled with journalists and photographers). One thing learned from 9/11 and the following wars - don't trust anything you see or hear. ;)

Which reminds us to be awfully careful about our response to video clips. I think of all the clips I see daily on facebook intended to influence my thinking. Usually it is intended for the good -- to make me more loving and appreciative of X. But sometimes it is intended to make me anxious about Y. 

[GEML]

Here's what I remember - women in the war torn country of Bosnia (a Muslim country) who walk every day around the perimeter of their destroyed village in memory of those who were killed by genocide. On 9/11, they announced "Today we walk for the Americans too."

[Wellfleet]

Here's what I remember - women in the war torn country of Bosnia (a Muslim country) who walk every day around the perimeter of their destroyed village in memory of those who were killed by genocide. On 9/11, they announced "Today we walk for the Americans too."

 

Wow, that's truly awesome. I never heard that story. Blessings on the Muslim ladies of Bosnia...

[Rhondinella]

Thank you all for being, for the most part, very respectful during the recent discussion here on religious beliefs about homosexual marriage.  I do feel like that the large majority of people who post here (some who are religious and some who are not) are very tolerant of others not sharing their beliefs and often are happy to hear from someone with a different perspective.  That's why I often let these topics be discussed whereas other threads might be tempted to just shut them down at the first mention of a controversial topic. 

 

I prefer to think we are all adults, intelligent and well-educated for the most part, who are capable of discussing complex issues without resorting to the kind of behavior you see in the comments section of every internet site, and for the most part you all have not disappointed me. I appreciate that. :-)

 

Having said all that.  Let's drop the homosexual marriage discussion for the time being, ok?  Actually it has basically died down on its own, but let's not start it up again unless and until something directly related to it happens on the show or with the Duggars.

 

Thank you all for being awesome.

 

[WalrusGirl]

(From the Josiah/Marjorie thread.)

They are both very Fundy. Derick's mother is Fundy-lite, and he was likely raised that way. Her comment about illness being a satanic attack is not mainstream.

Really? (Honestly asking. Google is obviously giving me a lot of questionable results.) I'm in the same area outside of DC you lived in (not a stalker, just remember your referencing my mall in a thread about child ear piercing! Josh and Anna's, I think.), and someone at my church certainly refers to his cancer setbacks and chemo side effects as spiritual warfare from Satan. And no one corrects him or seems to be subtly looking around quizzically ("really? We're all on-board with that?") along with me. It's a conservative church for the middle-ground denomination, but not out of the mainstream. (Or at least, so I thought until some Sister Wives thread gave me the impression that not all youth groups and retreats in Christianity did the whole "giving away pieces of your heart/then you'll have to walk down the aisle an empty, wilted flower/purity pledges" bit I got growing up there. But that was years ago. If I did have kids I'd never raise them there, but child-free. :-) )

Anyway, the person in question is incredibly liberal (in all ways). So I'm not sure that that alone a fundie makes. Though Derick has certainly drunk the kool-aid at this point regardless. But I'd love to wade through the google results about the devil to figure out which denominations officially hold which positions.

Edited April 17, 2015 by WalrusGirl

[GEML]

Like I said, I'd never base it on a denomination. There are Fundies in pretty much every denomination. (Maybe not Unitarians !). And it's not just one comment, but the way she talked about him courting, and tacitly given approval to that. I don't think she's as opposed to the Duggar lifestyle as we think, I think she's in treatment that can't be exposed to people/ germs.

Most people aren't genuinely unsettled by Fundies unless they LOOK different. This is what I've always found fascinating. You can pretty much get up and say wild and crazy things, but as long as you are dressed like the typical culture around you, people will simply say " that's his right to an opinion."

But if you dress in a typical Fundy way, or take a position even more radical , say, and cover you hair, even if you never mention ANY of that, people feel judged by you. You can talk and agree with every word they say, and they still feel judged.

So I would ask you - does this man, in clothing, speech, mannerism and other class markers fit it otherwise?

[JenCarroll]

Unitarian Fundamentalists burn question marks on people's lawns. (It's a joke, often made by Unitarians.)

Off-topic; couldn't resist; stepping out now.

[Hpmec]

Question for those who know more about fundie beliefs than I do. What is it about the Duggars brand of religion that (so far) keeps 19 children on board? My husband and I were both raised in pretty strict Catholic homes and of our 4 siblings only one attends church, as do I, and that's largely because we take our 92-year-old mother. Our other siblings checked out long ago and practice no religion. My husband lately has been attending Episcopalian services and seems to be happy there, so he's switched brand loyalty to some extent, too. But the Duggars are entirely different - all seemingly staying with every aspect of the program. I know that some of Anna's siblings broke from it, so it's not impossible, but what is that keeps a hold on so many? Fear of being shunned? Fear of going to hell? Or is it something more positive like a genuine belief that their religion is the way to go? It fascinates me that Boob and J'chelle have no dissenters thus far.

[Darknight]

Question for those who know more about fundie beliefs than I do. What is it about the Duggars brand of religion that (so far) keeps 19 children on board? My husband and I were both raised in pretty strict Catholic homes and of our 4 siblings only one attends church, as do I, and that's largely because we take our 92-year-old mother. Our other siblings checked out long ago and practice no religion. My husband lately has been attending Episcopalian services and seems to be happy there, so he's switched brand loyalty to some extent, too. But the Duggars are entirely different - all seemingly staying with every aspect of the program. I know that some of Anna's siblings broke from it, so it's not impossible, but what is that keeps a hold on so many? Fear of being shunned? Fear of going to hell? Or is it something more positive like a genuine belief that their religion is the way to go? It fascinates me that Boob and J'chelle have no dissenters thus far.

All of the above.

[JenCarroll]

It's way too early to say they all have, given how many of them are still children. In general I think fundies have a pretty high attrition rate.

[GEML]

Actually, it's about 50%. Gothardism probably does run a little higher, as it's designed, not unlike the Amish, which it models itself after, to break down individualism and keep children uneducated and dependent upon fathers for employment and housing so they have financial reasons to stay. The Duggars are an extreme situation, of course, having FAR more money than most families, but it's hard to separate out the financials from the faith.

The current Amish retention rates are 90%, which were always the Gothard/quiverful ideal. They haven't come close to fulfilling those, however. They don't have they money to do so. But the Amish also didn't have those retention rated until 1) they aggressively homeschooled and 2) their land became valuable enough to sell as a commodity to plant new communities to retain their youth.

So my answer to the Duggars and the Bates is that right now their oldest children are staying because of a combination of children who genuinely believe and children for whom it's in their best financial interest to do so. Once the second is removed (such as in the Kellers' case) the numbers quick move back into traditional Fundy numbers of 50%.

(My parents went 0-3. We are all Episcopalian, although we all three came to that faith very differently.)

[Skittl1321]

 

But the Duggars are entirely different - all seemingly staying with every aspect of the program. I know that some of Anna's siblings broke from it, so it's not impossible, but what is that keeps a hold on so many? Fear of being shunned? Fear of going to hell? Or is it something more positive like a genuine belief that their religion is the way to go? It fascinates me that Boob and J'chelle have no dissenters thus far.

 

 

A really good paycheck?

 

Maybe they just don't know how much they could make by going the other way and selling the story.  (Or in a prisoner's dilemma situation, no one wants to be the one to cash in on the dissenter story, so they stick with the status quo so all benefit.  Because the second Duggar to break free won't make as much as the first.)

[andromeda331]

Do anyone think Duggar girls now that they were out of the house would ever read the Bible for real and not just what ever version Gothard has or were curious about stories they might be hearing now maybe from their in-laws and such and want to read their Bible?

[JenCarroll]

I'd like to see one of them read something that's NOT the bible.

[Vaysh]

I've always been curious about whether they understand (or are even interested in understanding) the actual text and underlying meaning of the Bible or if they are just memorising its verses. Ben and Jessa apparently go to Bible study but I have to admit that I have no idea about what actually goes on in those. Is it just parroting or are they discussing meaning and context as well? Is there actual discussion and debate or are everyone just nodding along and agreeing to whatever official interpretation Gothard or some other "authority" has set in place?

 

From what I gather they only use the King James version (the one that King James wrote in Edinburgh Castle). Do they believe that the more modern versions are mistranslations or why would they choose that one? Because I've read bits of KJV and it is hard. English is not my first language but I've managed to muddle through Shakespeare and poetry from the Restoration onwards but the KJV is on a whole different level of difficult, and considering that the Duggars don't exactly have a firm grasp of modern English, it makes me wonder how much of the Bible they actually understand, even on a basic level. Especially since their Great Interpreter of All Things Holy is Jim Boob, the man who refers to moss as God's Carpet.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Vaysh

[kalamac]

'God's carpet' always sounds to me like a bad euphemism for pubic hair. "Mum, I've got some hair growing...down there."  "That's just God's carpet. It's there to remind not to touch anything in that area."

 

Like you Vaysh, I do wonder how a bunch of people who sometimes seem barely functionally literate can manage to read and understand a version of the bible that it not the clearest one around.

[JenCarroll]

I wonder if they even know what language it was originally written in.

[GEML]

I think Jessa has been doing some real study with Ben, because her language had actually changed to a more Calvinistic bent recently.

[truelovekiss]

I wonder if they even know what language it was originally written in.

I think they might guess English, because 'Merica.

[JenCarroll]

Oh, right King James obviously would have written it in English...

[hlemommy]

I read king James and yes it is hard. I pray before I read and ask God to show me what he wants to me learn. I usually read something that means something to me at the time, I can go back a month later read the same thing and take something completely different from it. The Lord shows you what he wants you to see and I'm sure he does the same for the duggars

[andromeda331]

They hear the same things over and over again from their parents. Are they understanding or just nodding and going with it. Considering this is JimBob and Michelle who think their experts what are they telling them vs reading the Bible. But now that their out and able to get actual real Bibles are they curious to read for themselves what it says as oppose to what their parents have always told them. I read it when I was in my teens after years of hearing people quote and having debates over the passages I wanted to know what it said. I was very surprised by some of the women that were pretty awesome that no one in my circle had ever mentioned. Are they curious to hear a version other then their parents. Given that they use their Bible to keep their daughters sweet, doing all the work and raising their kids. I wonder what they'd think if they read the non-Gothard version. 

[Wordsworth]

If the Duggars are still following the Gothard method then reading the Bible and memorizing large passages of scripture are going to be something all the kids are encouraged to do.

 

However, the problem then becomes that they are reading the Bible filtered through Gothard's interpretation.  The passages that mean one thing to Christianity sometimes mean something else entirely to those who follow Gothard's teachings on the subject.  That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that Gothard discourages college for both boys & girls, especially Bible college.  Quite a few IBLP students go off to Bible college anyway and find out that what they were taught about the Bible isn't true.  Then they come home and show their parents  

 

 

[galax-arena]

I think they might guess English, because 'Merica.

And that Jesus was totally blond-haired and blue-eyed!

[GEML]

They also memorize large swaths that have been conveniently edited.

[truelovekiss]

And that Jesus was totally blond-haired and blue-eyed!

I wonder if the Duggars know that Jesus wasn't blonde and blue eyed. A couple of years ago, I told my Irish Catholic grandma that Jesus wasn't Caucasian and her response was, "but he is in all of the pictures!"

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I wonder if the Duggars know that Jesus wasn't blonde and blue eyed. A couple of years ago, I told my Irish Catholic grandma that Jesus wasn't Caucasian and her response was, "but he is in all of the pictures!"

 

LOL Bless her heart!!!

[JenCarroll]

I know a Lutheran, a family friend who is nearly fifty and has been taking adult Sunday School classes off and on for her entire life, who only recently discovered (to her great surprise) that Jesus was Jewish.

[mbutterfly]

May I assume they are reading the New King James Version published post-Dead Sea Scrolls? If so, it would be as accurate as any I believe. I use several translations -- enjoy it very much. NKJV is certainly not my go-to, but it has many strengths. I have this horrible feeling they use KJV instead, though. Does anyone have a thought on which? 

I know a Lutheran, a family friend who is nearly fifty and has been taking adult Sunday School classes off and on for her entire life, who only recently discovered (to her great surprise) that Jesus was Jewish.

I have to say that blows my mind. However, many things about religion blows my mind. I don't mind really. I'm pretty certain a Biblical discussion with, say JimBob, would blow all our minds to pieces. 

This story does remind me of Garrison Keillor who told the story of the Lutherans who liked the magi story because the Magi were Gentiles and thus, conceivably Lutheran. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by mbutterfly

[GEML]

The NEW King James? Oh surely you jest!!!

(It's definitely the old one.)

[andromeda331]

I'm impressed with anyone who can read the King James Version and understand it I tried and switched to a modern translation. I assume that's the version they read since King James wrote it and everything. But its more likely the Gothard's version of the King James version. It does make me wonder if JimBob and Michelle completely believe it or just like using it to control their kids. Given Michelle nearly having a coronary when Jessa and Ben held hands makes me wonder but then they have no problem changing things to fit their version. For all their talk of the Bible they say very little as to what they read and what their Bible studies are like. There most likely not debates, or even kids asking questions about passages. Do they ask questions when they get together with other families? Even with all reading the same Bible its hard to imagine their not hearing at least some bit of different points even between different families. Like Bates who's kids are allowed to have jobs and go to a school?

[GEML]

Gothard is famous for explaining the passages for people. I don't have my books handy, but his explanations in many situations are outright heretical. He takes out entire verses to suit his interpretation, for instance. Draws upon words that even Fundys wouldn't interpret to mean certain things. He's been brought up quite a few times within his own culture for mis teaching. He issues a retraction then retracts the retraction...it's quite boring stuff if you don't live in that world, which is constantly fighting about stuff like this. But even by this world's standards, he stands out.

[Wordsworth]

Second-generation IBLP are somewhat lost.  Their parents joined Gothard's organization when the children were young (or sometimes not even born yet).  The parents had spiritual education outside of IBLP/ATI.  They may have had public school educations.  The parents either jumped fully into the Gothard philosophy or they just picked the ideas out of it that they felt were good and ignored the rest.

 

The problem being that many of the parents never told the children what to ignore.  They just assumed the children knew, too.  But the children didn't.  And when off at ATI seminars and camps and training centers, the kids were given a far more stringent and narrow education than they got at home.  Many parents today are just now finding out what their children were taught at those far off training centers that was much different than what the adults were being told.  Many had no idea that their kids were taking seriously ideas that the parents themselves thought weren't necessary.  

 

Whether JIm-Bob and Michelle have truly bought into the Gothard philosophy hook-line-and sinker, I can't say.  But I will tell you that they had an education outside of the home.  They had spiritual training that didn't involve IBLP.  Their kids, every one of them, from Joshua on down, didn't have that. Everything they've been taught from birth to adulthood is based on these teachings.  Much of their socializing has been with like-minded individuals.

 

Should we be surprised that they don't question it?  What do they have to compare it to?  

 

 

[GEML]

Exactly. It's one thing to fight the world when you have at least some basis for what the world is that you're fighting, but it's another altogether when it's only phantoms. The biggest problem with first generation patriarchal movements (and we've had them at least since Abraham in Christianity, or Greek mythology if you want to look at it another way) is that there is always going to be another generation rising up and declaring itself the next First generation.

[truelovekiss]

Do we know if the Duggars give their children godparents? I would be interested to know who they pick. In my family, there is a lot of politics involved in choosing godparents. With so many candidates, I wonder how that would go.