Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Rhondinella]

Let's move back closer to religious topics DIRECTLY related to the Duggars, the show, etc., please.  While I do like reading all your thoughts and experiences concerning religion, we don't want this to become a place for just any religious discussion.  Thanks.

[Julia]

I know people who are genuinely offended by religion (although generally most by the one their parents tried to make them practice, so not particularly Christianity), but I don't really think that's what offends people about the Duggars. I do think it factors into the reaction - I believe it's human nature to feel satisfaction on some level when the person who's been throwing a volley of first stones gets busted and is dragged away yelling "You're not without sin either" - but it's not the whole story, or even the biggest part of it.

 

What I find terrifying and angering and genuinely worthy of opposition about the way the Duggars view the world - which they choose to frame as religion - is that for all that they're fervently in favor of writing their interpretation of the word of God into the legal code for the rest of us, they genuinely appear to believe that Jim Bob and by extension whichever messianic yahoo with a Y chromosome he subjugates himself to and on up the tower of turtles to where they can see past the swamp into the next county are the ultimate authorities, and that _the secular laws which allow us to live as a pluralistic democracy don't apply to them_

 

They barely pretend to educate their children, they've carefully structured their lives (and their finances) to avoid rendering unto Caesar whenever possible, they don't believe women of any age deserve any form of physical autonomy, and we have Jim Bob's word for it that his faith community is covering up family issues that make Josh's pale in comparison.

 

Granted, for all we know when Jim Bob mutters about worse things, he could mean that there are gay cousins, Obama voters and girls who spell better than he does, but that's kind of the point. These are people who want to decide what freedoms my daughter has and what laws she has to obey, and they consider what consenting adults do with each other more worthy of being addressed by the law than what's being done to girl children not even capable of consent in their own household, and that's not OK with me, even if they maintain that they're doing it for the glory of God.

 

I don't believe the fact that Jim Bob cafeteria shopped until he found a fringe sect of penis worshippers who think he speaks for God in any way makes his family a microcosm of christianity, any more than wahhabism speaks for all muslims or the ultra-orthodox represent all jews or the dizzying array of intersectional violence throughout history defines whatever religions people claimed to be fighting for. I'm sure Jim Bob thinks it does, but he's wrong about most things, JMO. And he's allowed to be wrong, because despite what he appears to believe, we have an establishment clause. Against that, it's difficult to play the God card.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Julia

[GeeGolly]

There is a lot of talk about one or some of the kids going rogue.

I'm curious, is Gothardism fairly new? And what are the statistics on extreme Fundamental Christians belief systems being carried down through generations?

[GEML]

Gothardism came out of the 1960's. The Duggars are late to the first phase, but pioneers of the second phase, which occurred after Wisconsin V Yoder opened up homeschooling as a viable (and profitable) option. Gothard was one of the first groups to pretty much demand his followers to pull their children from even Christian schools and use his curriculum.

[GeeGolly]

So then there are 3rd generation Gothardites. Has it grown? Are the 2nd & 3rd generations raising their families the same way? Not sure if anyone has the answers but my curiosity is piqued.

[Churchhoney]

So then there are 3rd generation Gothardites. Has it grown? Are the 2nd & 3rd generations raising their families the same way? Not sure if anyone has the answers but my curiosity is piqued.

 

Just in general, the history is that these fringe-y groups peter out, even in the second generation, and certainly in the third and fourth. The United States has a particularly rich history of new churches, denominations, splinter groups, cults and so on, most but not all Protestant-related, with many springing up, especially beginning around 1800 or so. Few have survived very long at all, although a handful have persisted. It's hard to get converts after the first few generations, partly because the charismatic founding figures are gone, and they're a big part of the draw. So you're stuck with just passing the thing down in families, and kids in the later generations don't have the same motivations as their parents, who came to the group as adults. Anecdotally, it seems that Gothard's group is going the same way most have gone -- i.e., losing its momentum.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Churchhoney

[NextIteration]

Did the Quiverfull movement spring from Gothard or was it more or less simultaneous?  I know I could Google this, but it wouldn't have the meaning that one of you that have a better understanding could convey.

[GEML]

Quiverful is MUCH bigger than Gothard. There were even some mainstream churches that became very Quiverful in practice, although their denomination never espoused or took that up as part of the official belief system. Then others have no ties to any organization at all. Gothard pushed his educational materials, but there are also Quiverful groups that don't homeschool, actually.

[kokapetl]

Quiverful is MUCH bigger than Gothard. There were even some mainstream churches that became very Quiverful in practice, although their denomination never espoused or took that up as part of the official belief system. Then others have no ties to any organization at all. Gothard pushed his educational materials, but there are also Quiverful groups that don't homeschool, actually.

Catholicism would be Quiverful, if Quiverful was defined by it's barebones tenents, 'no contraceptive aids, leave family size up to God', right?

[GEML]

There are a few Quiverful Catholic groups, actually. My father has a close friend involved in one.

[frenchtoast]

A few posts were just removed as they were off topic and argumentative. Per the pinned note at the top of every page:

This thread should be reserved for matters of religion, churches, church related-groups, and particular beliefs and practices that are  somehow related to the Duggars. It is not intended to be a catch all topic for any religious issue you want to talk about.  If you want to do that, please go to the Small Talk thread in this forum.  The mods will start deleting posts that are off-topic.

[NextIteration]

I don't see Catholicism as Quiverful at all, they aren't using fertility as a political agenda.

[kokapetl]

I don't see Catholicism as Quiverful at all, they aren't using fertility as a political agenda.

How many Gothardites are having sex when they feel like it, and how many are doing what Jimchelle did, which was track menstruation and become the beast with two backs, based on a schedule?

[Sew Sumi]

Oh, Hamlet! Well played! 

 

I also wonder about the Bateses. Kelly had even more kids in that 13-15 months apart range than Mechelle did. I doubt that either family truly "left [family size] up to God." Of course, the Duggars distanced themselves from being Quiverful when that became a four-letter word a few years back. They used to have the Psalms verses front and center on their website, which doesn't even seem to exist any longer, replaced by DuggarFamily.com, set up by the same people who did both Jill's and Jessa's sites. No overt bible verses to be found there. 

[GEML]

There is a lot of variation in both Catholicism and Quiverful movements. It's not only about politics.

[KatWay]

I know some very conservative Catholics who don't believe in birth control and having as many children as God gives them, and yet they all manage to stay below 10. Most end up having six, maybe eight maximum. They have an active sex life and use no birth control, ergo there's a lot of kids - but they don't push out kid after kid as a political mission, and desperately try to conceive even after No.19 and the age of 45 like the Duggars do.

[GEML]

Even in the "God's Army" world the Duggars and Bates' are unusual. Six-eight children are much more keeping to the norm for nearly every Quiverful family. Although no one talks about it, I think a lot of women have trouble with the strength of their pelvic floor after quick pregnancies, and these are couples, after all, who do put a real value on the sex life. I notice there is often a gap between three or four births of a few years - it's too coincidental to be pure chance.

Clearly, Michelle has a very strong pelvic floor. Even her last births were full term up until Josie, and that wasn't a muscular, ligament, or cervical issue. Say what you want about her (and we do!) she was built to give birth.

[JoanArc]

 

Clearly, Michelle has a very strong pelvic floor. Even her last births were full term up until Josie, and that wasn't a muscular, ligament, or cervical issue. Say what you want about her (and we do!) she was built to give birth.

Except for the c-sections, and she admitted to needing Cerclage with a few of the pregnancies...

Edited June 26, 2015 by JoanArc

[Satchels of gold]

The Pope made a statement in January stating that catholic have a moral obligation to limit family size to a number they can emotionally and financially take care off. Catholics believe in birth control just not contraceptives. Which reminds me of a joke. What do you call people who use the rythme method of birth control? Parents!

[Sew Sumi]

I wonder what the Seewalds' story is? They were chugging right along on the Quiverful train until Tommy Jack was born when Guinn was about 35. Now, 6 years and nada. Tommy Jack  also seems to be favored by both Guinn and the siblings. I wonder if something didn't happen during his birth in which a)he's lucky to be here and b)Guinn needed a hysterectomy?

 

You never hear of fundie women having hystos or tying their tubes. The first one I'd heard of was Brenda Willis. I do wonder how many of these women end up having to close up shop or risk death? Michelle always claimed she was up for that challenge; Josie's birth came close, but Michelle could have denied treatment IF she was a real martyr. Which she isn't. 

[JenCarroll]

Julia, what an excellent writer you are. Reading your posts is always a pleasure.

And not just because I happen to agree with pretty much everything you have to say. :-)

[becca3891]

I wonder what the Seewalds' story is? They were chugging right along on the Quiverful train until Tommy Jack was born when Guinn was about 35. Now, 6 years and nada. Tommy Jack  also seems to be favored by both Guinn and the siblings. I wonder if something didn't happen during his birth in which a)he's lucky to be here and b)Guinn needed a hysterectomy?

 

You never hear of fundie women having hystos or tying their tubes. The first one I'd heard of was Brenda Willis. I do wonder how many of these women end up having to close up shop or risk death? Michelle always claimed she was up for that challenge; Josie's birth came close, but Michelle could have denied treatment IF she was a real martyr. Which she isn't. 

I hadn't realized it had been six years for Guinn. It could just be that her fertility waned earlier than some women's. I remember when the Duggars met Dolly Parton, and she said she was one of 12, and that her mother would have been just like Michelle, except she had some trouble and "the doctor said no more." She probably had no idea how shocking that was to the Duggars, but on the other hand, I do wonder what they would do if a doctor strongly recommended against future pregnancy. I can see Derick being fine with it -- he probably never thought he'd be avoiding birth control until Jill came along anyway. Ben, though, is so rigid in his views that I can picture him telling Jessa that if the only thing that would save her from death was an early delivery/abortion, that it was god's will for her to die.

[cmr2014]

Ben is 19, and he has the certainty of youth right now. There is really no way to know at this point whether time will temper or harden his beliefs. Personally, I think that, even now, if Jessa's pregnancy put her life at risk, Ben would encourage her to terminate her pregnancy without hesitation (or maybe some hesitation, and some prayer).

 

Right now I think that Ben believes that abortion is the province of party girls who go out, get drunk, get pregnant, and just shrug it off with "oh well, off to the clinic!" In his world, good women who love Jesus and live moral lives never end up in a position where they might consider abortion.

 

I do have some experience with this, and I know that a fair number of the people who show up at abortion clinics for abortions also picketed those same clinics in the past, and will appear picketing those clinics in the future. Their own reasons for wanting an abortion are complex, difficult, and personal, but they continue to believe that the reasons of others are simply a lack of moral decency and personal responsibility.

ETA: deleted duplicate post

Edited June 27, 2015 by cmr2014

[GEML]

I also think that if Jessa ran into complications, it would be handled in a hospital as a medically necessary D&C and the only thing anyone would ever be told is that they had "lost" the baby because of a "miscarriage" and they would be genuinely devastated by it. But it would be an abortion just the same.

[Fuzzysox]

So I was raised Catholic but I'm not a bible belting going to church everyday one. My question is why does Derick say "our hope is that all peoples of the world would come to repentance and put their hope in the Lord, Jesus Christ." Umm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jesus the son of God, he is not the Lord!? (or is that because that is what my Catholic belief has taught me?) Please school me because I don't understand it. 

[kokapetl]

So I was raised Catholic but I'm not a bible belting going to church everyday one. My question is why does Derick say "our hope is that all peoples of the world would come to repentance and put their hope in the Lord, Jesus Christ." Umm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jesus the son of God, he is not the Lord!? (or is that because that is what my Catholic belief has taught me?) Please school me because I don't understand it.

God/Jesus is His own father, if that helps. Edited June 27, 2015 by Kokapetl

[Churchhoney]

So I was raised Catholic but I'm not a bible belting going to church everyday one. My question is why does Derick say "our hope is that all peoples of the world would come to repentance and put their hope in the Lord, Jesus Christ." Umm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Jesus the son of God, he is not the Lord!? (or is that because that is what my Catholic belief has taught me?) Please school me because I don't understand it. 

 

Actually, Catholics do use that phrase. The Nicene creed starts this way: I" believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made: consubstantial with the Father; by Whom all things were made."

 

I mean, both Protestants and Catholics believe in Jesus's divinity. I think that Protestants, especially evangelicals and fundies, just talk about Jesus on his own a lot more than Catholics do. Less focus on the divine trinity in fundie talk, I think.

[Julia]

Catholics also believe in a holy trinity. There's some theological disagreement between christian sects about how it plays out, but in some way or another I'm pretty sure they all believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one thing.

 

eta: 

 

and, Churchhoney got there first.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Julia

[Fuzzysox]

So WHY does Derick feel the need to convert?? Makes zero sense to me.

[GEML]

To be fair, there are plenty of people who were raised Catholic who aren't actual believers, just as there are plenty of people who were raised Protestant (or Muslim or Hindu or any religion) and don't believe. And many small villages in certain war torn parts of Central America have no real religious tradition at all.

[Churchhoney]

To be fair, there are plenty of people who were raised Catholic who aren't actual believers, just as there are plenty of people who were raised Protestant (or Muslim or Hindu or any religion) and don't believe. And many small villages in certain war torn parts of Central America have no real religious tradition at all.

 

Yes, you're certainly right about this. I can't say that the folks I know who've gone on the Duggar-type Central American missions ever went to the most troubled or remote areas, however. Of course, that doesn't mean that Derick and Jill wouldn't, since they're looking at a lengthy stay.

So WHY does Derick feel the need to convert?? Makes zero sense to me.

 

Well, if you really believe that your particular belief system is the only path to an individual's salvation (and I'm sure he does) and you believe that Christ's second coming depends on humans preparing the way by making over earth's institutions in the mold of heaven's kingdom (and I suspect he may, since that's baked into a lot of the traditions he's linked to, such as the whole Quiverfull homeschooling post-millennialist enterprise), then converting people is of the essence, really. Not only can individuals not be saved without it, but the second coming doesn't come for anyone unless the faithful bring a Christian-run golden age to Earth.

[GEML]

I do remember the mission the Duggars working in being pretty remote. Granted, given that we are talking about El Salvador and Nicaragua, that isn't saying much. There is a reason people are still to this day fleeing those countries. You may think that religion of any kind is a horrible thing, but given what those countries have been through for the past few decades, it seems to be that religion is actually the least of their problems right now.

[Fuzzysox]

Well, if you really believe that your particular belief system is the only path to an individual's salvation (and I'm sure he does) and you believe that Christ's second coming depends on humans preparing the way by making over earth's institutions in the mold of heaven's kingdom (and I suspect he may, since that's baked into a lot of the traditions he's linked to, such as the whole Quiverfull homeschooling post-millennialist enterprise), then converting people is of the essence, really. Not only can individuals not be saved without it, but the second coming doesn't come for anyone unless the faithful bring a Christian-run golden age to Earth.

OK I get it now. Even though I was raised Catholic I rarely go to church but maybe once or twice a year. My MIL goes everyday and she leaves countless messages on Sunday telling us why we should be in church since she raised my husband to attend. Yeah, after 20+ years I just tune her out because if I wanted to go to church I would but I don't like the priests at our parish and their "message." My mom feels that if I have faith God is always listening, completely different than my over zealist MIL.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[Churchhoney]

My mom feels that if I have faith God is always listening, completely different than my over zealist MIL.

 Perhaps the two main types of Christians, in a nutshell. I find myself wondering which type Jill is. For no specific reason I can point to, I feel as if she might be your mom's type, but that could be total fantasy (just like so much else of all our speculations).

[Churchhoney]

I do remember the mission the Duggars working in being pretty remote. Granted, given that we are talking about El Salvador and Nicaragua, that isn't saying much. There is a reason people are still to this day fleeing those countries. You may think that religion of any kind is a horrible thing, but given what those countries have been through for the past few decades, it seems to be that religion is actually the least of their problems right now

 

Yes, no question at all about that.

 

And this is one of those places where I'm handicapped by never having actually watched 19 Kids. I have no idea what kind of places they actually went to, so I'm basing my comments on some real-life acquaintances who've gone on mission trips to the same countries and did seem to spend their time in pretty heavily Catholic areas and away from the poorest, most stressed areas. I'm sure not every trip is like that.

[RazzleberryPie]

Well, if you really believe that your particular belief system is the only path to an individual's salvation (and I'm sure he does) and you believe that Christ's second coming depends on humans preparing the way by making over earth's institutions in the mold of heaven's kingdom (and I suspect he may, since that's baked into a lot of the traditions he's linked to, such as the whole Quiverfull homeschooling post-millennialist enterprise), then converting people is of the essence, really. Not only can individuals not be saved without it, but the second coming doesn't come for anyone unless the faithful bring a Christian-run golden age to Earth

What church/denomination teaches that certain things can bring on Christ's second coming? I've never heard this. I've been terrified through plenty of Methodist, Baptist and Church of God (COG loves some hellfire and brimstone, with the Rapture taking place any second), and all I have ever heard it the Bible verse that says not even the angels in heaven know when Christ will return, so you better be ready, but you can't speed it up or slow it down. Do the Duggars believe they're ushering in the Rapture? Of course my Catholic side thinks the whole Left Behind train of thought is made up Protestant stuff.

[Churchhoney]

What church/denomination teaches that certain things can bring on Christ's second coming? I've never heard this. I've been terrified through plenty of Methodist, Baptist and Church of God (COG loves some hellfire and brimstone, with the Rapture taking place any second), and all I have ever heard it the Bible verse that says not even the angels in heaven know when Christ will return, so you better be ready, but you can't speed it up or slow it down. Do the Duggars believe they're ushering in the Rapture? Of course my Catholic side thinks the whole Left Behind train of thought is made up Protestant stuff.

 

I don't know what the Duggars believe, but a lot of American Protestant theology (in particular, though the ideas have appeared in other times and places as well) has dealt with this whole "When will Christ return and then what?" question. A lot of stuff flows from the idea of a thousand-year reign of Christ on Earth before the last judgment -- a millennium, but there are different schools of thought about how it happens.

 

One school of thought is postmillennialism, which teaches that there will be a millennium but that it can only come after believers on Earth have created hospitable conditions for it. One impetus for homeschooling among some of its high-profile champions -- such as the Calvinist theologian Rousas Rushdoony, for example -- has been that children of believers have to be pulled away from all influences of the current worldly government and trained in the home to take over the nations of the world as a necessary precondition of the millennium. Some people call this Christian Reconstructionism. I'm sure there are some influences of the Duggars that embrace this idea or something like it, but I have no idea whether they consciously hold it or what. There's a lot of stuff written about all of this, although many of the homeschooling people seem to be keeping it more under their hats these days. Here's just one tiny example:  https://understandingbooksbible.wordpress.com/2013/10/10/premillennialism-postmillennialism-and-amillennialism-part-1/   

[GEML]

There are some groups who do believe it, but it's not going to be found in any of your mainstream churches. Some of the mega church ministers believe this, such as the minister John Hagee, and people like Jack Van Impe have been on the air, what, 40 years now, tell us how this week brings us this much closer?

But none of this is new, really. There were whole movements throughout the 19th century that we're SURE it would come during their lifetime. Groups like the Shakers and the Harmonists stopped having sex because being pure for the second coming was more important than more people. Mormons aren't known as the "Latter Day Saints" by accident.

This idea that we live in the Last Days is VERY Anerican is practice. It's not going anywhere soon.

[mbutterfly]

To be fair, there are plenty of people who were raised Catholic who aren't actual believers, just as there are plenty of people who were raised Protestant (or Muslim or Hindu or any religion) and don't believe. And many small villages in certain war torn parts of Central America have no real religious tradition at all.

I asked a missionary from a conservative evangelical church why she went to Central America to make converts when they were already Catholic. She said, and I believe her, that -- at least where she went -- the Catholic Church was not caring for the people,, neither spiritually nor for human physical needs. I'm no expert and wouldn't diss the Catholic Church, but I believe this is culturally true in some parts of Central America. 

Edited June 28, 2015 by mbutterfly

[GEML]

The 1980's wars, now followed by drug wars, were very destructive to the Catholic Church in many of these Central American countries. Plenty of nuns and priests were slaughtered by both sides, often for trying to be decent in times of indecency. Churches were burned and religion of any kind was basically removed from life for many.

These are some very brutal worlds after you scratch the surface. I imagine it will be very eye opening for the Dillard's, even if they do have American style housing and help with cleaning and childcare.

[KatWay]

 

She said, and I believe her, that -- at least where she went -- the Catholic Church was not caring for the people,, neither spiritually nor for human physical needs. I'm no expert and wouldn't diss the Catholic Church, but I believe this is culturally true in some parts of Central America.

In a lot of parts of Central America, the Catholic church is one of the major carers for the poor. I know a lot of Catholics who've worked there and it's not about converting but about building houses, teaching, raising money for the communities, etc.

I'm sure they can't work like that everywhere and there are less tended to communities. It also makes sense for conservative evangelicals to focus on these because they can swoop in there better than in one of the communities that were essentially fine and do their mission work.

[Happyfatchick]

...tippy-toes into this highly intellectual and over-my-head convo...

I've been a Southern Baptist since my first breath, although I did foray out into a Methodist variation for a time (basic beliefs the same). I've never ever been taught, even on a peripheral level that something WE were doing on earth was preparing the way for the second coming. Nobody knows. Like GEML sates, every generation believes it will be THEIR generation, for "the end times are nigh". We are taught consistently that we MUST meet physical needs and plant a seed. No one wants to hear God loves them if they're starving, or living in a ditch. I don't hate missionaries, I believe most (if not all) of them get the principle that they are there to help, usually with their specific skill set. It is typically the very act of kindness that makes people ready to hear. [as I typically do, I digressed]. All I meant to say is, we are taught to do the best we can to prepare others for the second coming. Not to make the world "ready" per se. Nothing we can, do, make, provide or prepare is going to change the timing.

My parents were part of a set of builders with the SBC. Carpenters. (My mom mostly worked on crews feeding said carpenters). They were labeled missionaries. Very proud of their label. Stayed on the road all the time, providing disaster relief assistance. Mostly to damaged churches, so that they could open the doors to help others in need. Neither of them were preachy types, although both were willing to share if asked. They just went wherever they were sent, to help others. Collected things for trips to give away, tried their best to meet every need (always out of personal funds). My mom has dementia today, and she asks all the time at dinner "where are all the guys?" Or "how many do we have to feed today?". I adore my parents (even the one who's gone...). I'm just speaking my heart quietly. Please don't beat me up.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[mbutterfly]

...tippy-toes into this highly intellectual and over-my-head convo...

I've been a Southern Baptist since my first breath, although I did foray out into a Methodist variation for a time (basic beliefs the same). I've never ever been taught, even on a peripheral level that something WE were doing on earth was preparing the way for the second coming. Nobody knows. Like GEML sates, every generation believes it will be THEIR generation, for "the end times are nigh". We are taught consistently that we MUST meet physical needs and plant a seed. No one wants to hear God loves them if they're starving, or living in a ditch. I don't hate missionaries, I believe most (if not all) of them get the principle that they are there to help, usually with their specific skill set. It is typically the very act of kindness that makes people ready to hear. [as I typically do, I digressed]. All I meant to say is, we are taught to do the best we can to prepare others for the second coming. Not to make the world "ready" per se. Nothing we can, do, make, provide or prepare is going to change the timing.

My parents were part of a set of builders with the SBC. Carpenters. (My mom mostly worked on crews feeding said carpenters). They were labeled missionaries. Very proud of their label. Stayed on the road all the time, providing disaster relief assistance. Mostly to damaged churches, so that they could open the doors to help others in need. Neither of them were preachy types, although both were willing to share if asked. They just went wherever they were sent, to help others. Collected things for trips to give away, tried their best to meet every need (always out of personal funds). My mom has dementia today, and she asks all the time at dinner "where are all the guys?" Or "how many do we have to feed today?". I adore my parents (even the one who's gone...). I'm just speaking my heart quietly. Please don't beat me up.

What a lovely sharing. The woman I mentioned above is no longer living, but her role was much like your mother's cooking, collecting, and also playing whatever instrument might be available (could play anything) for some lively hymn singing. I know it was particularly difficult (back in the day) for a woman to go into some locations (with our different personal care needs). I love to hear about them. They are heroes to me. 

[RazzleberryPie]

There are some groups who do believe it, but it's not going to be found in any of your mainstream churches. Some of the mega church ministers believe this, such as the minister John Hagee, and people like Jack Van Impe have been on the air, what, 40 years now, tell us how this week brings us this much closer?

But none of this is new, really. There were whole movements throughout the 19th century that we're SURE it would come during their lifetime. Groups like the Shakers and the Harmonists stopped having sex because being pure for the second coming was more important than more people. Mormons aren't known as the "Latter Day Saints" by accident.

This idea that we live in the Last Days is VERY Anerican is practice. It's not going anywhere soon.

I've very familiar with beliefs on Christ's return, the Rapture, pre vs post milliniumalism, inheriting the earth, etc., but I've really never heard myself that there's anything we can do to make Jesus come back faster. Of course, we're always closer to the end, because that's just how time works. What I was asking is which churches/denominations preach that we can do things to make it happen - and you answered that with the John Hagee/Jack van Impe (who has been wrong about 1000 times, but still sells those videos and books!). 

[RazzleberryPie]

...tippy-toes into this highly intellectual and over-my-head convo...

I've been a Southern Baptist since my first breath, although I did foray out into a Methodist variation for a time (basic beliefs the same). I've never ever been taught, even on a peripheral level that something WE were doing on earth was preparing the way for the second coming. Nobody knows. Like GEML sates, every generation believes it will be THEIR generation, for "the end times are nigh". We are taught consistently that we MUST meet physical needs and plant a seed. No one wants to hear God loves them if they're starving, or living in a ditch. I don't hate missionaries, I believe most (if not all) of them get the principle that they are there to help, usually with their specific skill set. It is typically the very act of kindness that makes people ready to hear. [as I typically do, I digressed]. All I meant to say is, we are taught to do the best we can to prepare others for the second coming. Not to make the world "ready" per se. Nothing we can, do, make, provide or prepare is going to change the timing.

My parents were part of a set of builders with the SBC. Carpenters. (My mom mostly worked on crews feeding said carpenters). They were labeled missionaries. Very proud of their label. Stayed on the road all the time, providing disaster relief assistance. Mostly to damaged churches, so that they could open the doors to help others in need. Neither of them were preachy types, although both were willing to share if asked. They just went wherever they were sent, to help others. Collected things for trips to give away, tried their best to meet every need (always out of personal funds). My mom has dementia today, and she asks all the time at dinner "where are all the guys?" Or "how many do we have to feed today?". I adore my parents (even the one who's gone...). I'm just speaking my heart quietly. Please don't beat me up.

Your parents sound like very caring, compassionate, people - exactly what I think missionaries should do and should be - spread the Gospel through your actions, not your demands, live humbly, don't intrude, but be available and ready to share when asked.

 

The 'missionaries' who annoy me are the ones who beg for money and then either do nothing but take an exotic vacation where they flaunt their 'love' through frivilous things - like painting nails or kissing babies for a week *cough Duggars* - or the ones who stay longer, but don't really do anything but visit tourist sites and tell people they need the missionaries type of Jesus, without any consideration for the culture *Duggars*.

[Churchhoney]

...tippy-toes into this highly intellectual and over-my-head convo...

I've been a Southern Baptist since my first breath, although I did foray out into a Methodist variation for a time (basic beliefs the same). I've never ever been taught, even on a peripheral level that something WE were doing on earth was preparing the way for the second coming. Nobody knows. Like GEML sates, every generation believes it will be THEIR generation, for "the end times are nigh". We are taught consistently that we MUST meet physical needs and plant a seed. No one wants to hear God loves them if they're starving, or living in a ditch. I don't hate missionaries, I believe most (if not all) of them get the principle that they are there to help, usually with their specific skill set. It is typically the very act of kindness that makes people ready to hear. [as I typically do, I digressed]. All I meant to say is, we are taught to do the best we can to prepare others for the second coming. Not to make the world "ready" per se. Nothing we can, do, make, provide or prepare is going to change the timing.

My parents were part of a set of builders with the SBC. Carpenters. (My mom mostly worked on crews feeding said carpenters). They were labeled missionaries. Very proud of their label. Stayed on the road all the time, providing disaster relief assistance. Mostly to damaged churches, so that they could open the doors to help others in need. Neither of them were preachy types, although both were willing to share if asked. They just went wherever they were sent, to help others. Collected things for trips to give away, tried their best to meet every need (always out of personal funds). My mom has dementia today, and she asks all the time at dinner "where are all the guys?" Or "how many do we have to feed today?". I adore my parents (even the one who's gone...). I'm just speaking my heart quietly. Please don't beat me up.

 

I think most people believe and have been taught what you're describing here. It's not that the other ideas are at all common -- and they also don't seem to be closely allied with any particular denominations or major theologians. Rushdoony was a Calvinist, but his postmillennialism isn't at all a mainstream Calvinist belief either. His ideas have had some very prominent proponents, though -- just a lot fewer of them than the number of people who have evangelical or fundamental Protestant beliefs of the regular kind.

 

As I understand it, the "post-millennialists" don't necessarily believe that the end times are coming any minute. But they do believe that Christ is slated to have a thousand-year reign on Earth just before the last judgment, and that that reign will not begin until the Christian faithful themselves transform the planet into a place where Christian ideas hold sway in all areas, including governments.

Edited June 28, 2015 by Churchhoney

[GEML]

Groups like the Shakers and Harmonists were very convinced their actions were hastening the second coming. Not unlike some groups today who do things such as buying land in Israel or attempting fasts to hasten the return. But these groups have always been offshoots, usually lead by some sort of prophet of charismatic leader, not even close to fanatical groups, let alone the mainstream. Even those who believe strongly in a sort of "Left Behind" second coming.

[kalamac]

I've always wondered, if Jesus did come to earth, would people like the Duggars reject him, if he told them some of their beliefs were wrong (all their hate against LGBTQA people etc.), or would they change their beliefs to fit what Jesus told them he thought was right.

[Rhetorica]

Groups like the Shakers and Harmonists were very convinced their actions were hastening the second coming. Not unlike some groups today who do things such as buying land in Israel or attempting fasts to hasten the return. But these groups have always been offshoots, usually lead by some sort of prophet of charismatic leader, not even close to fanatical groups, let alone the mainstream. Even those who believe strongly in a sort of "Left Behind" second coming.

And, ironically, the Shakers and Harmonists believed in celibacy and died out...

[Micks Picks]

Well if the idea is a thousand year reign of christian life and governments, they'd best be talking to the muslims who seem to be espousing something different.   Could they maybe focus on converting them?