Season 2 Talk

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I found it sad that Nina is ditching Garrett for a new guy because she doesn't want to talk about her rape. I get what she said in an earlier episode because she doesn't want him to look at her differently, but if you're going to be more than casually dating, you're going to have to talk about it eventually. Everyone heals on their own timeline and that's totally fine, but if she isn't ready to tell a boy she's dating about her rape, then she probably isn't ready to be dating again.

As an adult, I feel like it's probably not quite as important to address it with high school boyfriends (especially if they're seniors because realistically, if they make it through the summer, they will most likely break up once they start college) but at the same time, the bigger issue is that she clearly isn't comfortable talking about it with people outside of their support group which tells me that Jessica was correct - Nina is NOT done dealing with it yet.

The biggest bummer about that whole scene is that now Jessica has lost the one friend she had who really understood what she's been through. As nice as Alex is to her, he will never totally get it because it didn't happen to him.

Tony asking out Ryan was so cute. I like that in the midst of these really serious issues, the show still takes time to show us moments of the characters in regular high school moments that we've all been through. Although Tony definitely looks way older than a high school kid (which is why I laughed when the police later said they were looking for a suspect in his late teens or early twenties), he did a great job of portraying a high school kid asking out someone he has a crush on.

I'm glad Porter is trying to help Justin while he still can because Justin needs all the help he can get. That poor kid. His mom is never going to be a parent to him. She is never going to keep enough food on the table or a roof over his head. She isn't going to protect him from her abusive asshole boyfriend. She is never going to take care of him the way a child should be taken care of by a parent. She will always choose drugs and her boyfriends over him.

While I totally agree that Tony needed that anger management class, it's hard for me to sympathize with the "victim" who called him the F word. FUCK THAT GUY.

Bryce's rah rah "we're brothers" and "this is where we take our stand" speech made me want to puke. Yeah, we're all brothers as long as you don't question me or disagree with me. As for making your stand on the baseball field, as Zach pointed out, winning a baseball game doesn't prove you aren't a rapist. I mean, great, you're a rapist who can hit a ball with a bat.

I was disappointed that Clay and Justin waited until the fourth inning to finally break into the clubhouse. They should have gone in as soon as the game started!

I was not at all surprised that Zach was the one who was leaving the polaroids for Clay. As he said, he's a coward. But what redeems him is that he's trying. I know that some people may say that it's too little too late, but I appreciate that he's been making an effort, which is more than several other people can say (MARCUS). But man, Zach put a huge target on his back by yelling that they both know Hannah didn't lie on those tapes and then walking off the fieldi in the middle of the game.

I know that some people will think that Sheri's smackdown of Clay was too on the nose, but she was on the money. If you're going to blame the girls for going there and "getting themselves into these situations," you should ask yourself why you aren't blaming the guys for assaulting them. I mean, seriously, Clay. The next thing you know, you'll be blaming them for what they were wearing too. That's like saying Tony deserved to be called the F word because he was dumb enough to show any affection for his boyfriend in public.

Poor Chloe. It is beyond fucked up that Bryce would rape his own passed out girlfriend. I wonder if that happened before or after they officially started dating. Either way, it's a horrible violation but I still wonder.

I've watched enough tv shows to know that Clay and Justin better scan every single one of those polaroids and store them in multiple locations. I'm talking the cloud, safety deposit boxes, etc.

Edited May 22, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[SadieT]

While I appreciate Shari's new skill, you can't really detox someone from heroin with a bottle of Gatorade. Opiate withdrawal is extremely dangerous. 

[Empress1]

I laughed through the whole fight. "LET'S GO MOTHERFUCKEEEEEERS!" (I don't know any of the names of the players who aren't Bryce or Zach.) I started cracking up when Porter and the coach were fighting. I also cracked at the adult straight up asleep in detention.

"You are a stranger in this house." I mean, OK, but how about some consequences, Mom? (Besides slapping him in the face, which he deserved. She should have hit him with a closed fist.)

The phrase "made love" coming out of a teenaged boy's mouth should have been a clue that Bryce's story was bullshit.

[mntnsrck79]

I really enjoyed this episode. Yes, it’s totally unrealistic that this relationship was never mentioned before, but moving beyond that point, I liked seeing Hannah happy with Zack (who has always been one of my favorites). Even though the way Zack ended things was shitty, he seemed remorseful then and obviously even more so now. It was also more of a relatable teenaged problem (thankfully) instead of the outright villainy shown in the series, which made it more poignant for me.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I don't care how lonely poor little rich boy Bryce is all alone in that big house. He is still a gaslighting rapist who loves using his privilege to silence anyone who dares to stand up to him.

Now that he's admitted to his mother what he did, what will Nora do? The cold way he told his mother how he raped Hannah ("until she cried") makes him totally irredeemable (not that I thought he was one of the characters who would get a redemption arc this season, but still).

I feel like this is Pretty Little Liars where every time we find out one of the culprits, my response is "But what about _______? Who the fuck did that?" Zach left the polaroids for Clay. Chloe was the one who put up the pictures to scare Jessica. But who hung up the blow up doll at Jessica's house? Who left a gun for Alex at the pharmacy? Who stole the pictures out of Clay's car? Who smashed up Tony's car? I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS! All of this is some A level creepery (and at least on PLL we were told that A had cameras hidden everywhere and minion to do her bidding). Like how did this person know that Clay had the polaroids in his car? How did this person know that Tony had parked his car in an alley while he was walking around town with Caleb?

Although I felt Mackenzie has been a bit overenthusiastic about Tyler from the very beginning, it was nice to hear her apologize to him about telling one friend what happened.

Damn, Chloe. That was a regrettable swerve.

The baseball coach can eat a dick. He is just like Bryce - he thinks he can threaten and cajole people into obeying him. I'm glad that Zach stood up to him and quit the team. I'm glad he plays other sports so that baseball wasn't his sole hope of getting a college scholarship.

Once again, Clay's jealousy is making me angry. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Hannah did hang out with Bryce and have sex with him right after she moved to town. SO THE FUCK WHAT? She never said on the tapes that she DIDN'T do those things (and as Zach pointed out to Clay in S2.E6, she obviously didn't put everything about everyone on those tapes). Even if she had sex with Bryce a hundred times during their junior year, that doesn't give him the right to rape her even once. Husbands can rape their wives. It's called consent and it has to be given every time. The number of times you had sex before that has no bearing on consent.

Just because she didn't include certain information on the tapes and she didn't tell Clay about XYZ doesn't make it untrue and it doesn't make Hannah a liar. She never said that the tapes were the equivalent of an all-encompassing history of the world. Clay's relentless jealousy really gets me mad. They weren't even dating! She had no obligation to tell him all of these things that weren't on the tapes. The fact that he was surprised by many things that WERE on the tapes should be a pretty strong indicator that she didn't tell him everything, so why should he be surprised that there are even more things that she didn't tell him and that she didn't put on the tapes?

Some of that is moot since Bryce was clearly lying, but it's Clay's reaction that bothers me. Every time some new piece of information comes out in court, Clay treats it a some kind of betrayal that Hannah never told him this before. He acts like she owed him every minute detail of her life, which she did not. Even if you're married to someone for fifty years, you don't owe them that. You still get to be a separate person and have private thoughts and experiences.

I get that he's frustrated by trying to figure out what's true, but this kid needs some intense and frequent counseling. I totally understand that he's still upset by Hannah's death, which is normal, but this obsession and feeling of ownership are very unhealthy.

[project90]

Just confused so he apologizes to her about stealing her positive notes she forgives him they start romantic relationship and then she leaves out of her tapes but chooses to bring up something she had moved past by time she made the tapes. Also was misunderstanding of Hanna thinking he just threw her note away that he actually kept explained?  Maybe I've missed something 

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I'm distracted by Clay's hair. It makes the shape of his head look odd. He needs a trim. 

[Tired of Lurking]

Strongest episode of the season so far. Kevin's admission of guilt and remorse really caught me off guard. I was bawling right alongside. Wonder who the mystery woman is?

 

I didn't see Clay joining the Assholes coming, so that was an awesome twist.

 

Looks like we are rolling to another strong finish! I am off today so I should be able to binge through it.

[project90]

On 21/05/2018 at 1:16 PM, Lady Calypso said:

 The only one I'm unsure about is Bryce. I get that he's transferring, but when he talks about being a junior, he means for the following school year, right? I always get confused with the American high school system because where I live in Ontario, we finished high school in June, but I know most American schools finish, I think, in May? 

Bryce was a senior when Hannah went to Mr Porter tell him about the rape he told her to deal with it and that he a senior and be gone in a couple of months 

[millennium]

When Clay's parents gave him a Prius as a first car, it occurred to me that these brats may have a touch of affluenza.   They seem to have too much time to sit around contemplating their belly-buttons, having sex, terrorizing each other, etc.   Too much access to money, as well.    

[ElectricBoogaloo]

So the clubhouse was supposedly only for baseball players and the girls they invited, which is why we’re supposed to believe that Justin (who was always hanging out with Bryce, Zach, Monty, and Scott) didn’t known it existed, but somehow Marcus was in there with a stripper and at least one other guy (who filmed the incriminating video)?

I was trying to imagine someone hiring a stripper and then saying, “Oh the address for the party? Okay, so you know where the high school is? No, wait, it gets better! Do you know where the baseball field is? Just wait out there and we’ll come get you.”

[amazinglybored]

5 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Disagree with the notion that the attack on Tyler was just for shock value.

It was a deliberate form of sexual assault on a male. One that happens more than reported. 

It also plays into this odd inner workings of homophobic people. Gang up on, assaulting, sexually assaulting a guy for being gay or doing it as a insult. Why are you so worried about that guy being gay? Why are you concerned with physically being all over them?

 

I can get wanting to bring attention to that. The way they showed it was just shock value and it didn’t need to be so graphic. Purely for shock value? Maybe not. Purely to raise awareness and start a discussion? Definitely not.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

What did the text to Tyler say (the one he got right before his parents came into his room and said that Marcus’ parents called to say that Tyler and Cyrus blackmailed him)? And does that mean Marcus told his parents about the stripper? I’m guessing he told them the bare minimum that would get him off the hook. “These guys MADE me get a lapdance! I just went along with it so I wouldn’t hurt anyone’s feelings! And the stripper is a single mom putting herself through college so I wanted to be supportive!”

Edited May 22, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[memememe76]

I don't know how the scene could not be shown without it ever being accused of what it is being accused of. I can't see it working at all if Tyler talks about it after the fact, with none of it shown. I think that is probably the main reason why I cam glad Tyler did not shoot up the school--it allows the writers to explore his assault. 

[Tired of Lurking]

Gawt damn. That ending. I think I need to take a small hiatus from powering through. That was intense.

[monagatuna]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Brenda Strong! aka Sue Ellen Mischke on Seinfeld and Mary Alice on Desperate Housewives (among other things, but those are the two I will always remember her for).

But yeah, that look she shot him was like "Uh, seriously?"

I think it was this same episode where they're discussing whether Bryce should wear glasses to testify.

Dad: They make you look kind and compassionate.

Mom (with a Look): or, uh, he could....be those things.

[tennisgurl]

First of all, I am super releaved that Tyler and Cyrus were just pulling a prank on Marcus, and not building a bomb or something. Its nice to see Tyler build a real friendship, without any kind of dark undercurrent. Of course, being this show, I am already waiting for the other shoe to drop, and Tyler is still clearly a ticking time bomb. 

Marcus really is a smug asshole, and I could not have been rolling my eyes harder during his fake testimony. What a dickhead he is. He has major issues with women, and is a million times more interested in looking good than actually being good. 

I hope Zach finally cuts ties with Bryce. It really seems like Zach is a good kid, he just lacks confidence, and goes back to his asshole friends instead of his real friends because he is too afraid to take a real stand. 

Clay means well, but he really comes off as a selfish asshole sometimes. Constantly trying to get Jess to testify against Bruce even when she is clearly uncomfortable, being snappy towards Shari, giving Tony shot for understandably not wanting to violate her probation, acting like Justin going through withdrawl is just a big inconvenience to Clay, and yeah a lot of those people did shitty stuff to Clay, but its a huge lack of empathy on his part. he sees himself as the white knight avenging Hannah, and everyone else just exists to get him closer to that goal. And now that he keeps hearing about Hannah being into other guys, its getting him all in a tizzy. 

Edited May 22, 2018 by tennisgurl

[dlyn]

Even more than the Zach stuff in the previous episode, there’s no way that Clay (or Alex) would have heard Hannah say that she wanted to stop living and not have mentioned it with the all the tapes and guilt last season. I understand that you have to do some hand-waving when the writers have to go back and tell stories that didn’t exist, but I couldn’t get past that. 

 

I wish Alex had texted Tyler or sent Zach after him. I don’t even like Tyler and that broke my heart a little. 

[memememe76]

I am not familiar with the actual drugs they consumed, but could Hannah have just forgotten about it? Also, I am pretty I missed this part, but how did the defense even know about the party?

[tennisgurl]

Olivia has a Murder Board! And is sharing it with people!

I was glad to see more of Ryan, and more of his thought process as to why he published Hannah's poem. I do think he had at least some good intentions with doing that, even if it went very wrong, and some of it was certainly to boost his magazines profile. He did a good job at the trail too, and I think he made some good points in Hannah's favor. The revenge Tyler tried to get on him seemed rather misplaces. There are so many worst people around here than Ryan. 

I really liked the scenes of Justin and Tony hanging out, playing some game they clearly made up, talking about their issues, and walking around. They're a fun combination, and they already seem to get each other and feel for each others issues. 

When Clay was yelling at Ghost Hannah for liking Justin, I was getting a serious Nice Guy vibe from Clay. "Why did you like these others guys! You should have only ever liked nice humble me you bitch!" I know he is still grieving, and he is still a young teenager with a LOT of shit going on, but he has been working my last nerve with his Hannah obsession this season. And of course, when he actually shows some empathy and compassion for poor Alex, he instantly runs off to deal with his Avenging Hannah obsession. 

I really hate that lawyer that the school hired. She is just so freaking smug, and her whole defense seems to boil down to "Hannah was a bitchy slutty hoe bitch who deserved to die" and her strategy seems to be "berate teenagers until they break down if they're not singing to my tune,, and get pissed if they dont", and she just seems to take so much pleasure in it. It would be one thing if this was just her job and she was putting in a strong defense, but she is just so seemingly happy to tear down this dead girl, its messed up.

[dlyn]

48 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

I am not familiar with the actual drugs they consumed, but could Hannah have just forgotten about it? Also, I am pretty I missed this part, but how did the defense even know about the party?

Clay asked Sherri if she said anything. She said no. Then he said “Maybe Leah (Jeff’s girlfriend) said something in her deposition.” So I suppose that’s what we’re going with. They never actually confirmed that. 

[shouldbedancing]

Honestly, nothing on this show has been more disturbing than watching Bryce get hard and jerk it off to the memory of raping Hannah. Granted, I fast forwarded through the suicide scene, I couldn't do it. But yikes. I thought they were gonna try to redeem him with like an incest storyline with his mom but... no. He's all the way evil forever. I, too, have to take a break after this one.

[Racj82]

4 hours ago, memememe76 said:

I don't know how the scene could not be shown without it ever being accused of what it is being accused of. I can't see it working at all if Tyler talks about it after the fact, with none of it shown. I think that is probably the main reason why I cam glad Tyler did not shoot up the school--it allows the writers to explore his assault. 

Whether it's rape or the suicide, any depiction of the violent and troubling acts in the series will seen as too far by some people. 

But, I think you can only do so much when you keep telling and not showing. The impact won't be the same for everyone but it won't hit as hard without the visual for many. 

I get how hard it would be for some people and just salacious for others but I do think there is a in between. The scene is meant to jolt you. Feel like it comes out nowhere. Not all violence is predetermined. Tons of buildup or a solid motivation. I don't even think Montgomery thought any of that out. He called him a homophobic slur and the thought probably popped in just then.

These violent acts on men by men are happening. It wasn't pulled out of thin air for the show. I think it deserves to be explored. The scene may come off one way but I think the actions of the crew were a lot more thought out than just pure shock value.

We keep seeing young men being physically assaulted on this series. Sadly, what happened to Tyler is one way that it escalates.

[bettername2come]

That opening scene with Clay was awesome. Love Justin being a decent guy and talking back to Bryce. Dylan Minette played Clay's breakdown well. Really liked how Justin ignored the fact that Clay was talking about Hannah in the present tense when he said she wanted Bryce dead.

I loved that scene of Clay and Alex showing up at her door and then the reveal of everybody else in the car behind them. Good on you, kids on the tapes. Y'all have all shown some nice character growth (except for Marcus and Bryce).

The opening scene with Bryce helping Justin out in the flashback was so sweet...and then Bryce just walks over and takes some kid's Twinkies because he wanted it. I kind of like how they're humanizing him, but just a little because while he's human, he still made a choice to be a fucking rapist and all around terrible person.

Loved how Cyrus is calling Tyler out on his shit and admitting that he's been all talk. All season I've felt like the finale is going to have a school shooting by at least one of these two. Guess now it's gonna be Tyler. 

Suddenly thinking Chloe stole the Polaroids. Not sure why, but I feel like she's got to do something dramatic in the coming episode.

This and the previous ep have been my favorite episodes of the season.

[Craphole Island]

So while I have a lot of thoughts I just want to say, was anybody else missing Sheri in the last few episodes?? I was disappointed we didn’t see her rallying around Jessica and Clay with the others. Seems like she definitely would’ve been involved considering she played a role in helping Justin and trying to take down Bryce. Not to mention she was friends (or at least teammates) with Jessica!

 

Marcus was also missing but was not missed.

[memememe76]

I was totally missing Sheri. I wonder if the actress just was not available? 

[Glade]

Everything seemed to have gotten better for Tyler at the beginning of the season, when at least he had Alex's friendship, and it was disgusting to watch the group shut him out again, as if he was worse even then Bryce (who Zack in particular handled with kid gloves while he violently repelled Tyler.)  And of course Tyler with being sent to a 'therapy' bootcamp and Justin spending one  month in lockup (where of course he wouldn't have been able to magically kick his drug addiction) got worse punishment then Bryce did.  That scene was graphic, but they showed Hannah and Jess being raped as well, so I don't see why it should be kept out of view.  

In one of the widely publicized cases where jocks raped a boy with a broomstick in a school locker-room a few years ago there was justice, so I hope Tyler's attackers will also be punished/exposed somehow?  This fucking school still did nothing about implementing a real anti-bullying program or doing anything to protect Tyler when he returned; and naturally when he went through that extremely traumatic assault he wasn't going to suddenly be able to reach out after not doing so after any of the previous incidents.   It was maddening how many physical assaults kept happening throughout this season and none of them ever reported. If Tyler is taken in and examined at a hospital, they could at least record the internal/external damage to show how badly he was physically and sexually assaulted; his injuries probably won't just heal on their own.  I hope he won't an get an 'American Crime S2' sort of ending...I was wishing that Clay would at least fling the gun into the bushes before the police get there.  Did that shot of Clay looking into the barrel of the gun imply it wasn't loaded? 

I really didn't like Hannah returning as a ghost or whatever, but it bothered me less when it was more clearly established as a figment of Clay's internal torture.   Nina burning the entire box of pictures was really messed up, and obstructs getting justice for the other girls.  This was a really compelling second season, I did love Alex's storyline, and Justin's half-happy ending (minus the heroin and the random J/J hookup) warmed my heart.  Hannhah/Zack was a pretty obvious retcon, but it wasn't so bad.  I'm in for S3

Edited May 23, 2018 by Glade

[Lady Sybil Branson]

Was wondering that myself. Must do a rewatch. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, shouldbedancing said:

Honestly, nothing on this show has been more disturbing than watching Bryce get hard and jerk it off to the memory of raping Hannah.

I watched the suicide scene and while it was graphic, watching Bryce get turned on by remembering that he KNEW he raped Hannah was far more disturbing.

At the beginning of the scene when they showed him staring off into the distance while remembering what happened in the hot tub, I thought for a second that they were going to show him having some remorse to bring him into a grey area, not necessarily to redeem him but to show that he isn't completely evil. NOPE. It's not that he's oblivious and unable to read signals. He gets off on the control he gets from raping girls which is sickening.

It's not just that he was projecting his situation onto Hannah (as seen with the scenes where he flipped which one of them was saying certain things or pursuing the other) and seeking revenge against a girl who rejected him because we know he's raped at least two other girls. He's not a guy who misread social cues and mistakenly believed that Hannah was into it. He knows that she wanted him to stop and he enjoyed violating her, forcing her, and making her cry.

There's really nothing they can do now to redeem him in my eyes. I don't care if he was an adorable child who loved puppies and baked cookies for homeless people because now he is an unrepentant serial rapist who gets off on knowing that he can force himself on girls who can't make him stop. He's so disgusting that he makes my skin crawl.

[SadieT]

The fight scene was pretty great. Porter’s WTF when the Coach came at him like they were just another couple students made me chuckle. And Zach jumping in to deliver a beat down was pretty awesome. 

I know Chloe’s a victim but man was it disappointing seeing her back down on the stand. 

Moms of boys like Bryce tend to be some of the worst enablers so seeing Bryce’s mom calling him out for being a creep and not buying any of shit is refreshing but also kind of jarring. 

The dramatic pan down to Bryce’s hard on while he fondly reminisced about raping Hannah was seriously disturbing. Do we really need to see multiple boys’ erections on this show? First Alex and now Bryce. One criticism I've had for this season is that they seem to be trying hard to make every character sympathetic, no matter how shitty they acted last season, but thankfully there's no sympathetic backstory for Bryce. He's just a privileged violent predator who gets off on hurting girls. 

I was half-expecting Clay to shoot ghost Hannah at the end to make her stop describing the rape. 

Edited May 23, 2018 by SadieT

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Wow, Justin stopping Clay from shooting himself or Bryce was amazing, especially because it was to save Clay, not Bryce. Who would have thought that of all the kids on the show, Clay and Justin would be there like that for each other?

Interesting that Tyler is the more idealistic "let's take down the system" one and Cyrus is the more practical "dude, you can't post pictures of us committing a crime!" one. I've never understood why people document themselves committing crimes. That's called EVIDENCE, you dummies!

It would have made more sense if Bryce and the other baseball players had learned about the clubhouse from other guys on the team instead of the coach, especially since Sheri said in the previous episode that the polaroids go back for years. It would be like other school traditions (most less rapey than the clubhouse) where the returning varsity players show the new guys. The fact that the coach not only knows about it but is the one who basically gave them the clubhouse makes him even grosser than before.

I spent the first season thinking that the actor who played Justin was a poor man's James Franco, but he has been doing great work this season. It helps that he's been given more to do, but he's really proven to be a good actor.

Although Tyler has been heading down a slippery slope this season, he was not exaggerating when he told his parents that if the principal was really interested in the truth, half the athletes at the school would be in that mandatory diversion program because the school is aware of what the jocks do and they don't do anything about it.

Ha, I was cracking up that we got a scene of just Scott and Monty. Even with just the two of them, I still couldn't tell which one was which. I had to wait until one of them said the other's name and then I was like okay, Scott is in the varsity jacket and Monty is in the plaid shirt. FINALLY! So Monty is Justin 1.0?

Listening to Jessica tell the police what happened to her had me in tears, but I loved seeing everyone waiting for her afterward. As much as the tapes tore everyone apart last season, finally this group of people has come together to support Jessica. It would have been nice to see Tyler and Sheri there too, but I'm just glad that everyone else was there (well, besides Mr. Porter because duh). I was surprised that even Courtney was there.

The verdict was disappointing but not surprising. It's hard to prove something like that as soon as Olivia said she wanted to file a lawsuit last season, I knew it would be an uphill battle.

Loved that Alex's dad perp walked Bryce during the press conference so that everyone got to see it. Justin just broke my heart. He knew he would be arrested as an accessory and he testified anyway. Even if he ends up not being convicted, now he's in the system and there's no way that he will be able to avoid going into the foster system.

So who the hell stole the box of polaroids? Chloe knew about them, but I keep thinking that the baseball coach did it to protect the team. I keep hearing Puddy from Seinfeld saying, "I GOTTA SUPPORT THE TEAM!"

Did Clay ever figure out what was taken from his room when Monty broke in?

ETA: I totally forgot to mention that I clapped when I saw Scott was sitting with Clay et al when the verdict was read. Another defector from the baseball team!

Edited May 23, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I fully support Jessica reading her victim impact statement, the sad thing is that it probably just gave Bryce more masturbation material.

I almost guffawed when Bryce's lawyer lamented that the school canceled what might have been a championship season for the baseball team. BOO HOO!

I HATE that all Bryce got was a few months of probation. On one hand, I think that the show is being realistic in showing that men get away with a slap on the wrist for sexual assault ALL THE TIME. On the other hand, I'm afraid it will make girls who watch this show even more afraid to report when it happens to them because they will think there's no point in going through with a trial where you are slut shamed and humiliated just to have the perpetrator get essentially no punishment (see also: Brock Turner). No surprise that the actual convicted rapist only got three months of probation but somehow Justin got six months.

Nitpick: the funeral supposedly took place on Friday, April 19, but that doesn't happen until 2019. According to Porter's testimony, Hannah came to see him on October 9, 2017, so the funeral should take place in April 2018. April 19 was a Thursday in 2018.

Clay's face as he watched Hannah walk out of the church was heartbreaking. I'm not a religious person but the priest they had was pretty great with both Olivia and Clay. If more religions and clergy were less judgmental and open, more people might go to church. I mean, I probably still wouldn't because I like to sleep in on Sundays, but still.

So cute to see Zach hug Justin at the coffee shop. Even more adorable was watching Zach teach Alex how to slow dance with Jess.

I loved seeing Ryan tell Olivia about his travel plans. I know Andy is probably less than thrilled that she's got yet another high school friend, but whatever. If Ryan is encouraging her to go travel then he seems like a good friend for her to have. And hey, you don't share your murder board with just anyone.

OMG, Clay asking Justin if he wanted to be adopted was so sweet. I don't know how all of this works, but couldn't they just take him in as a foster kid first? I mean, I'm all for Justin legally becoming a part of their family, but part of me wondered why they didn't see if he would prefer other options. His mom clearly has no interest in taking responsibility for him so he might as well live with a family that actually gives a shit about him.

At the beginning of the episode, I couldn't tell if Tyler was actually better after the program he completed or if he was just faking it so he could come back at school and get revenge, but he seemed genuine when he apologized to Monty. Any progress he might have made was destroyed by fucking Monty. I was afraid that he had killed him because he cracked his had so hard into the sink. As if he thinks that is going to get him back into Bryce's good graces.

Hahahaha, Clay trying to teach Justin how to tie his tie was hilarious. I love that Justin doesn't take Clay's uptight attitude too seriously and he's able to laugh it off. But poor Justin - it's hard to lose a friend like Bryce who's known you for most of your life.

I know a school dance is cliche, but I love that it showed that these are still high school students who are capable of having moments of joy, however brief. I'm glad to see that Clay is still friends with Cyrus and his group.

The group hug at the dance was even more tear inducing than Hannah's memorial service. Grief is like that though - one minute you're laughing and the next minute something reminds you of what you've lost and all the happiness drains right out of you and the pain and sadness come rushing back. I loved that as soon as the song started, Tony knew and ran off to find Clay. I'm sure that on paper, that brief scene was very simple but it was so effective and touching in its execution. I liked that Cyrus and his friends were just in the background to be supportive of Clay but that they knew not to be part of the group hug.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Parminder Nagra!

Seeing all the women talk about the ways they had been sexually assaulted reminded me of the victim impact statements at Larry Nassar's sentencing. It was a good reminder of what Olivia said in the previous episode about how she didn't know a single woman who hadn't dealt with sexual assault or abuse. It's so pervasive that it's almost commonplace.

On 5/20/2018 at 7:30 PM, Hope said:

Lastly and most importantly, how old are these kids? I'm very confused because Marcus got into Harvard, and Bryce said he had to repeat junior year. So they for sure are seniors, but the rest of the cast are juniors, right? Hannah was alive sophomore year, then season 1 is fall of junior year, and season 2 is spring of junior year? I'm just trying to sort out the timeline.

S1 began in October 2017 and S2 took place in March/April 2018, but there were also flashbacks to the previous school year. The party Kat threw at Hannah's old house took place just before the school year started in 2016 (August or September, depending on the school district). The summer that Clay was visiting his grandparents while Hannah and Zach were together was in between those two school years (summer 2017).

I think most of the main characters are now juniors, but a few of them are seniors. Marcus got his college acceptance letter, Ryan is taking a gap year, and Bryce lost his scholarship offers so they were all seniors. Back in S1 I thought that Courtney was a senior too but I can't remember why.

This was Bryce's senior year but he said that because not all of his classes transferred to Hillcrest, he's going to be a junior there. I'm assuming that means he is transferring to Hillcrest before the school year ends (on the show, it's now April) and that he will be a senior in the fall because there is no way in hell that a high school senior would be put back two years for transferring. Bryce is an ass but he's not a moron so it's not like he's been taking a bunch of random esoteric electives. In the state of California there are mandatory statewide graduation requirements (3 years of English, 2 years of math, 2 years of science, 1 year of foreign language or visual/performing arts, 3 years of social studies aka history, geography, civics, economics, 2 years of PE). Since he was college bound, he must have been taking at least the bare minimum of academic work required for CSU/UC acceptance (4 years of English, 3 years of math, 2 years of science, 3 years of social science, 2 years of foreign language, 1 year of visual/performing arts). I could see being a few credits short of graduating, but to be put back two full years seems unlikely.

This makes me wonder if they're going to have the next season take place during fall of the following school year. If so, then this was a way for them to keep Bryce around for another season. But I feel like they might as well have the next season happen in May/June of 2018 so that they can deal with the immediate aftermath of Tyler almost shooting people at the dance. My guess is they didn't want to have too much of the show take place during the summer because then we lose the school setting, which is where everyone is forced to interact on a daily basis. But if they would have S3 take place during May/June and then the very beginning of summer vacation, they wouldn't have to worry about who's graduating.

On 5/22/2018 at 1:33 PM, amazinglybored said:

I can get wanting to bring attention to that. The way they showed it was just shock value and it didn’t need to be so graphic. Purely for shock value? Maybe not. Purely to raise awareness and start a discussion? Definitely not.

Is there a way to depict rape without being graphic and shocking? I don't think there is, but I also don't think a show that features rape so heavily in the storylines should try to make it look non-graphic and non-shocking. The baseball team at my friend's high school (which was 6 miles/10 minutes from mine) got in huge trouble because they were raping boys with broomsticks. It happens.

And why is seeing Tyler's attack more graphic and shocking than Hannah's?

On 5/22/2018 at 8:20 PM, Craphole Island said:

Marcus was also missing but was not missed.

Ha, this was the perfect way to put it!

Edited May 27, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo
Typo

[monagatuna]

13 hours ago, Racj82 said:

Whether it's rape or the suicide, any depiction of the violent and troubling acts in the series will seen as too far by some people. 

But, I think you can only do so much when you keep telling and not showing. The impact won't be the same for everyone but it won't hit as hard without the visual for many. 

I get how hard it would be for some people and just salacious for others but I do think there is a in between. The scene is meant to jolt you. Feel like it comes out nowhere. Not all violence is predetermined. Tons of buildup or a solid motivation. I don't even think Montgomery thought any of that out. He called him a homophobic slur and the thought probably popped in just then.

These violent acts on men by men are happening. It wasn't pulled out of thin air for the show. I think it deserves to be explored. The scene may come off one way but I think the actions of the crew were a lot more thought out than just pure shock value.

We keep seeing young men being physically assaulted on this series. Sadly, what happened to Tyler is one way that it escalates.

I fully agree with you. I keep hearing people talking about boycotting because the bathroom rape scene was "too far." It's not too far when we have a show about young women repeatedly getting raped and assaulted and harassed, but it's too far when it happens to a young man? The show is about a rape. We didn't shy away from it when it was Jessica or Chloe or Hannah and we had to see Bryce's naked butt, but a violent attack that shows even less is too far? Was it too far because he was also beaten, or because it was a man-on-man sexual assault?

This is a difficult show about difficult topics. I've felt sick since I started watching it last week and having to come to terms with some of the things in my own past, and I doubt I'll be rewatching. Is it "too far" to show bullying, suicide, rape, substance abuse, assault, school shootings, etc., when these are things teens deal with in everyday life? Sure, it's hard to watch, but it's even harder to experience. This show has never been about sugar-coating these issues. If it's too far that is simply because it is the theme of the show. If people want it glossed over, they can watch Saved By The Bell. 

[kilda]

Actually, heroin withdrawal isn't dangerous.  It won't kill you.  It will make you WANT to die, but you won't actually die from it.  Alcohol withdrawal on the other hand is very dangerous.

the idea that Sherri would have gone to juvie for the stop sign incident is ridiculous.  You have to commit serious or multiple offenses to get sent away like that.  Maybe her parents decided to send her to some treatment program for troubled youth, which would be an overreaction, but possible.

I never bought the idea that Sherri did anything that terrible anyway.  Hypothetically, if she had called to report that stop sign being knocked down, what would have happened?  Jeff's accident happened pretty soon after the stop sign accident, definitely within the hour.  It's not like local police are going to send someone rushing out to direct traffic at the intersection because a stop sign is knocked over.  If she had called it in they probably would have put it on a list to get repaired within the next few days/weeks, and Jeff would still be dead.  I totally get Sherri feeling responsible, but I honestly don't see why anyone else would think she is.

Also, where exactly was Jessica in the past 5 months that she wasn't in school?  Obviously getting some help and treatment for her trauma, but why wasn't she at school?  It would make sense for her parents to transfer her to a different school under the circumstances, but why would they just keep her home for 5 months?

[Last Time Lord]

22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was trying to imagine someone hiring a stripper and then saying, “Oh the address for the party? Okay, so you know where the high school is? No, wait, it gets better! Do you know where the baseball field is? Just wait out there and we’ll come get you.”

Perhaps I missed something, or am misremembering but I was under the impression that the lap dance Marcus got wasn’t from a stripper, but a student invited to The Clubhouse that got drunk and/or high and was talked into doing a strip show

[starri]

I cried when they pulled back from Jessica's doorstep and showed the rest of the Justice League there to support her.  Although I was slightly miffed that the producers didn't think to include Sheri, since I don't think there's any way she wouldn't have been there within the fiction of the narrative.

The one black mark on an otherwise stellar episode was Clay telling Hannah that he couldn't forgive her.  What does she need your forgiveness for, asshole?

[Zap]

55 minutes ago, starri said:

I cried when they pulled back from Jessica's doorstep and showed the rest of the Justice League there to support her.  Although I was slightly miffed that the producers didn't think to include Sheri, since I don't think there's any way she wouldn't have been there within the fiction of the narrative.

The one black mark on an otherwise stellar episode was Clay telling Hannah that he couldn't forgive her.  What does she need your forgiveness for, asshole?

Jessica pulled a similar thing on Alex at his party I think.
I guess someone taking their life leaves you so powerless that 'blaming them' can happen.. Just like all those people who feel suicide is selfish, because you should think of all the people around you. (Personally not something I completely agree on. Sure it's sad how much Hannah's decision affected most of these people, but in the end 'think about the others!' is not the most convincing argument to somebody who's depressed (as well as probably convinced people are better of without her))

[Last Time Lord]

I rewatched this episode mainly because I kept dozing off when I watched it the first time. Now that I’ve seen all of the episode this time, I stand by my original post:

 

On 5/22/2018 at 2:06 AM, Last Time Lord said:

Visual representation of me right now:

https://giphy.com/gifs/poldark-masterpiece-classic-HqfuApBtoE6ze

I would just like to say I adored the scene where Olivia showed Clay the list of Hannah’s reasons why not. If anything sums up the show and it’s meaning, it should forever be that scene and Olivia’s line “No matter how many reasons why, there’s always more reasons why not”

About the Tyler scene. I’m frankly a little mad about the negative reaction. Tyler is the fifth character on this show to be a victim of sexual assault, and what gets me is I cannot remember there being anywhere close to this much outrage when it happened to Jessica and Hannah in season one, nor with the fact that Chloe has chosen to stick with her rapist and lied on the stand to protect him  

I really hope Tyler gets taken to a hospital and treated for all of his injuries. 

I’m curious what the text he sent Mack actually said, since they didn’t show it. Maybe a warning for her and Cyrus to leave the dance. 

My pet theory is the guns he had weren’t loaded, and was going there to commit suicide by cop.

Has the show been renewed for a third season? I want to see how they go on from here.  

[starri]

3 minutes ago, Last Time Lord said:

My pet theory is the guns he had weren’t loaded, and was going there to commit suicide by cop.

They showed ammo and pipe bombs.  I actually thought the end result was going to be suicide by cop, and I'm glad they didn't go that route.

[Negritude]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 1:16 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The show was filmed in Vallejo. San Rafael, Sebastopol, and Mare Island and they’ve used locations that make it obvious to NorCal people that the show is set here (unlike some other shows that try to pass off one location for another and deliberately don’t show recognizable spots or landmarks). There are some links on the first page of the media thread with specific shootng locations if you’re interested in checking them out!

I live in Berkeley and although hella is still around, it’s a lot less pervasive than it was 10-20 years ago. But the reason I buy the lack of hella on this show is that with a few exceptions (mainly Justin) the main characters are very suburban trenagers (heh, although you could argue at this point, suburban teenagers are more likely to use slang like hella!). Even though Oakland and SF aren’t that far away, these kids might as well be living in any suburban neighborhood in America because they are so untouched by SF and Oakland.

What caught my ear was that when Tony and Clay were talking about going to look for Justin in Oakland, they kept referring to it as the city. Up here, the city always means SF. In local newspapers, SF is often referred to in print as The City. Even people who live way out in the burbs like Walnut Creek or Livermore (and for whom Oakland is closer) know that terminology and call SF “the city.” No one ever refers to Oakland as the city. I’m guessing this was the show’s attempt to make the show seem a little more generic/less location specific and they intended it to come off as “we live in this little town and Justin is in The Big Scary City” but they kind of ruined that by specifically telling us that he was in Oakland. 

Realistically, I think that the show is trying to be presented as more timeless so that it won’t be one of those shows/movies that ages badly, but I agree that if you live within 100 miles of NorCal, these little things are noticeable. 

True about hella being less pervasive now than 10-20 years ago. I'm in Sac and although I'm not a native, I first lived here in the early 00's in my college years and recently came back to the area and I'm not around a lot of teenagers so maybe they don't say it as much. I had the same issue with Ladybird, but that's a whole other discussion lol.

I didn't catch them referring to Oakland as the City and I just referenced it as "The Town" in my original post.

Good point about making it more timeless, I guess that's what a lot of other shows are going for as well.

[Last Time Lord]

7 minutes ago, starri said:

They showed ammo and pipe bombs.  I actually thought the end result was going to be suicide by cop, and I'm glad they didn't go that route.

I remember seeing those in the open chest as he was packing his backpack, but not being grabbed by him. I may be wrong, however. 

I’m glad they didn’t go that route, either. 

[starri]

I guess if nothing else, Christian Navarro did spend the season looking somewhat less terrified that he'd catch Gay from Tommy Dorfman or RJ Brown.

Between a character named "Montgomery" and a second named "Scott" and the fact that both halves of Star Trek: Discovery's gay couple appeared before the season's end, they had to be doing that on purpose, right?  My headcanon is now that the minister and Dennis are a couple.

It was nice that Lainie had quit her corporate job to work with Dennis on stuff that doesn't make her skin crawl, but that seems like something she'd tell Clay about beforehand.

The scene of the Justice League wrapping Clay in a hug circle as he broke down was enough to make me forgive a lot of sins.

[bettername2come]

2 hours ago, starri said:

The scene of the Justice League wrapping Clay in a hug circle as he broke down was enough to make me forgive a lot of sins.

Yes! And I love referring to them as the Justice League, even if they are more of Well At Least We Tried To Get Justice League. I thought it was enough when Tony heard the song and took off for Clay, but seeing them all surround him with the group hug dance was such a thing I didn't know I needed. I loved the scenes at the dance. I loved the weird friendships that have formed out of this tragedy and I love that they all actually went to the dance and hung out. I loved the juxtaposition of Bryce calling Justin "brother" immediately followed by Clay walking up to him to check on him. I love that they want to adopt Justin and that Justin wants to be adopted. I loved when Clay's mom said they would get Justin out and he didn't even look worried as he sincerely said "I know. Thank you." I love that Clay paid it forward from when he had the gun and was ready to die/kill and Justin stopped him. It was a heroic moment for him amidst some dumbass choices, especially when he sent Justin and Jessica back in, and I love giving these characters those moments of selflessness.

I do not love Jessica hooking up with Justin when she's on a date with Alex. I do not love that Chloe's pregnant. I do not love Justin doing heroin. I  do not love Nina burning the pics, although I had her in 2nd place on my list of people who'd stolen them. I do not love the cliffhanger of Clay standing there holding the gun outside the high school.

I'm glad they were able to stop Tyler and I want Tony to drive him to a hospital and get him some help. It's especially sad because he really seemed to mean the stuff he said about learning in that diversionary program and wanting to do better. I want him to be able to move forward. There really did seem to be just a major pattern of hope versus setbacks the last couple episodes.

Edited May 24, 2018 by bettername2come
redundancy is redundant

[DangerousMinds]

On 5/22/2018 at 4:16 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The show was filmed in Vallejo. San Rafael, Sebastopol, and Mare Island and they’ve used locations that make it obvious to NorCal people that the show is set here (unlike some other shows that try to pass off one location for another and deliberately don’t show recognizable spots or landmarks). There are some links on the first page of the media thread with specific shootng locations if you’re interested in checking them out!

I live in Berkeley and although hella is still around, it’s a lot less pervasive than it was 10-20 years ago. But the reason I buy the lack of hella on this show is that with a few exceptions (mainly Justin) the main characters are very suburban trenagers (heh, although you could argue at this point, suburban teenagers are more likely to use slang like hella!). Even though Oakland and SF aren’t that far away, these kids might as well be living in any suburban neighborhood in America because they are so untouched by SF and Oakland.

What caught my ear was that when Tony and Clay were talking about going to look for Justin in Oakland, they kept referring to it as the city. Up here, the city always means SF. In local newspapers, SF is often referred to in print as The City. Even people who live way out in the burbs like Walnut Creek or Livermore (and for whom Oakland is closer) know that terminology and call SF “the city.” No one ever refers to Oakland as the city. I’m guessing this was the show’s attempt to make the show seem a little more generic/less location specific and they intended it to come off as “we live in this little town and Justin is in The Big Scary City” but they kind of ruined that by specifically telling us that he was in Oakland. 

Realistically, I think that the show is trying to be presented as more timeless so that it won’t be one of those shows/movies that ages badly, but I agree that if you live within 100 miles of NorCal, these little things are noticeable. 

I was a high school counselor in San Francisco in the mid-late 1990's, and the kids were using "hella" then. Hard to believe it's still trendy so many years later.

[CloudySky]

It was hard to reconcile the Zach/Hannah summer fling with his tape...I find it very hard to believe or understand that what he did would still weigh on her after they semidated for a few months and she lost her virginity to him. They never talked about it or acknowledged it during all their intimate talks? How could they not have worked that out? I get that his actions were a single domino in the chain reaction that lead to her death and her feelings of isolation but she seemed to believe he didn't care about her and threw away the letter...and I just can't believe that at all.

Ugh, that Jessica/Justin hook up was so annoying. Why, show, why?

For a moment I believed Monty was the one who was providing the polaroids but wow did that turn out not to be true. What a vile human being.

That principal is the worst. What the fuck...And how are half the kids at this school showing up with bruised faces to the next period and nobody asks any questions?

It's a strange thing to say and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but well this is only fiction...hopefully Bryce can't help himself at his next school and the girl comes forward. His second conviction could get him some actual time. It'll show that even if it seems like the guy got off scot free, coming forward can make a difference.

And maybe I'm an horrible horrible person, but part of me actually wanted Tyler to go in there and shoot some of those assholes. And that's where the show went wrong imo because I shouldn't have felt that way even for a second about a mass shooter going into a school.

[Primal Slayer]

These past 2 episodes pissed me off to my core. I feel like they just screwed us over and left me with no reason to even care or continue with the show if it should get a third season. 

Bryce gets off the hook scotch free, Tyler comes back only to get beat and raped in the bathroom, Jessica/Justin hook up, Justin is back on drugs, all the photos are burned....why is all this bad stuff still happening? Where are any of the happy endings? 

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/19/2018 at 10:17 PM, Lady Calypso said:

This episode cemented that Zach truly is a good guy who has just made bad choices.

Funny because it cemented to me how weak and a coward he is. Zach reminds me of what one of the Little Rock Nine women said on Oprah's show, when they were discussing the racism and verbal abuse they got when they started at the previously white school. Some of their old white classmates were in the audience and one of them was this guy who never said anything hateful to any of them but he never did a thing to stop it or ever speak to any of them or try to befriend them. He just kept his head down and didn't get involved.  And the woman said that that that guy actually represented most of the students. That the bullies were actually just a few people. The greater threat was the silence and turning a blind eye from the other students. 

That's Zach. And that's why I couldn't get into this relationship between he and Hannah we previously never knew about, because not only do I feel like this is some total rewrite (not surprising since let's face it, there was no source material to go on for Season 2, since the book ends with Clay's giving the tapes to the next person), mainly to drive the "Clay had blinders on and made Hannah into this perfect person and he's realizing she wasn't and is being a slut shaming dick about it" narrative but I don't buy that Hannah wouldn't have seen that coward quality in Zach. And that not only would she start hooking up with him but really believe they would be boyfriend and girlfriend. 

 

On 5/22/2018 at 3:05 PM, project90 said:

Also was misunderstanding of Hanna thinking he just threw her note away that he actually kept explained? 

I think there was no real explanation to be had. It just seemed like Hannah remembered him throwing it away but he actually didn't. But I completely agree with your other point. I guess the explanation they might use is that the real reason Zach was one of her reasons was for his essentially being too coward to be with her publicly but she was too embarrassed, even if she was about to kill herself, for people to know that and so she just talked about the notes and his throwing away her letter. The whole thing still feels like a stretch to me. 

Because while Clay was being a jealous, judgmental tool, his question wondering why Hannah freaked out the way she did when they almost hooked up at Jessica's party but apparently had a summer of passionate sex with Zach, is valid. Because last season clearly showed that Hannah's freak out came from her remembering Bryce grabbing her ass, Marcus assaulting her in public, the photo Justin took being circulated, etc. All that stuff happened before this supposed relationship with Zach. I guess now they'll say she was also thinking about that shame of his not wanting to be seen in public with her but the whole thing is kind of hard to buy. 

We are now being asked to buy that Hannah was still hung up on Justin who allowed a picture of her with her underwear exposed to be passed around and lied about how far they went. Then that she lost her virginity to Zach, one of the jocks in that crowd and spent a summer having copious amounts of sex with him that she clearly really enjoyed. But then her and Clay kissing at Jessica's party triggered so many bad memories that it made her yell and scream at him like she was being attacked. I mean yeah, asswipe though Clay may be, I'd be kind of offended too. 

I get the story that the writers are trying to tell here but this is the first time where I felt like they went a really contrived and forced route to tell it. 

Edited May 24, 2018 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

On 5/21/2018 at 9:02 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Clay's jealousy is still annoying me. First it was about anyone who had ever touched Hannah and now he's jealous of Justin too? Dude, what was he supposed to do? Sit in your room by himself while you were at Alex's birthday party? God forbid he watch tv downstairs with your parents like a normal person.

Clay is a classic only child spoiled brat. He doesn't talk to his parents, shuts his door on them any chance he gets but the fact is, he's essentially been their whole life since he's an only child. So while he'll gripe about them bugging him and being all up in his life, he resents someone else getting any of their attention because their attention has always solely been focused on him. 

[dlyn]

I live in San Jose and I haven’t heard anyone say hella in years, unless it was done so ironically. I also noticed the reference to Oakland as “the city,” which stuck out like out a sore thumb. Even the smallest Oakland suburbs don’t refer to it as such. 

 

I wasted a lot of time trying to match suburbs to their fake city, like where would you find a family as rich as Bryce’s and as poor as Justin’s in the same district. But they probably didn’t give it that much thought. Just Fake Town, USA.