S06.E10: START

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

She never would have gotten into GW if she didn't have the grades to do so.  So yes, she must be book smart.

Without ever picking up a book about WWIi, a huge subset of her emphasis of study. I guess what I am saying is that the character of Paige, like Stan, could have used some sharper writing.

[hellmouse]

3 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

Elizabeth's reaction seemed to me to be entirely instinctive, rooted in her role as their mother. She wants to gather her children and get them to safety, which she believes is with her. It's not logical and she knows it once Philip breaks it down to her. 

For most of this season we didn't see those motherly instincts.

I agree - that's why I think it's instinctive. She doesn't act nurturing or motherly with either child. She seems utterly cut off from Henry and mostly focused on Paige as a not-very-good spy-in-training. But at this crisis moment, she is reacting to a threat to her children. They are hers. She believes that only she and Philip can adequately protect them. If they had managed to escape with the children, I think she'd soon be back to being a detached, somewhat cold parent. But in that moment, it's not even something she has to think about. When she does think about it, she realizes Philip is right. 

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Which is another reason Paige could easily cut a deal.  I do think she'll call Stan after another drink, and possibly a nap.  He'd help her with that for all the information she could supply so they could catch more illegals.

Paige may not know much, but what she knows might be useful, especially when put together with information they have from other sources. 

[DrumJunkie]

My apologies, Bannon.  I didn't mean to discount your viewpoints.  While I don't understand why someone would watch something they find large problems with, it is your prerogative to "Hate watch" (as you've said.)  I've come late to the game on the Previously forums, though I've been a fan of this show since it's pilot aired.  I agree with you completely on the quality arc of Martha's story - simply fabulous. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Of that there is no doubt.  The characters are incomplete.

Of course there is the possibility that Paige views American history books as propaganda and dismisses them entirely.

At one point, wasn't Claudia bitching about how American's view WWII?

Yeah,  but Paige was completely ignorant of the facts of WWII put the Soviet Union in a favorable light! What the hell?

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, Mrs peel said:

I don’t think that was claudia’s Apt, but a safe house.  It was pretty sparse every time the 3were there.

I've seen a couple voice their opinion that it was a safe house, not Claudia's apt, but, I'm still leaning towards her apt. For one, the Old School Recap calls it her apt.  Plus, it seemed to me that it did have stuff around that it appeared to be lived in.  When Paige arrived, it was obvious Claudia's things were gone.  Not that it's crucial for me, but, it also seemed to me like Claudia was at home there.  E would just drop by to see her, where there didn't seem to be any prearranged messages sent for Claudia to meet her there, if she didn't live there.  I'll check on it more when I watch this season over again.  I'll do that pretty soon I think.  

[RedHawk]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think that Stan covered that by alerting Adeholt that he left his stakeout to check Paige's apt. and didn't see anything.  I take it that his trip there happened before the other agents showed up to stake it out. 

I hoped that the other agents arrived after the garage encounter. For a moment there Stan didn’t seem too sure that Aderholt’s next words were not going to be that the agents had seen the whole thing. But as Stan’s wheels (and mine) turned, we both realized the agents would not have let P&E (and Stan) out of that garage. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by RedHawk

[scowl]

45 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Kim Philby didn't personally murder wholly innocent British subjects in large numbers. This gets to the problem of having Liz and Phil murder so many people. It would have been a better show without that level of violence.

This was my continuous disappointment with the series. P & E were terrible spies because they routinely killed anyone who could have given them trouble. I wanted to see good spies, ones that were smart enough to never get themselves in that situation, or at least not in every episode. 

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

My apologies, Bannon.  I didn't mean to discount your viewpoints.  While I don't understand why someone would watch something they find large problems with, it is your prerogative to "Hate watch" (as you've said.)  I've come late to the game on the Previously forums, though I've been a fan of this show since it's pilot aired.  I agree with you completely on the quality arc of Martha's story - simply fabulous. 

It is extremely unusual for me to watch a show more than one or two seasons. Most television writing and acting just doesn't appeal to me. I thought the acting on this show was among the best I've seen. I think the writing whiffed on Stan and Paige, and the showrunning had some problems. I'd watch all seasons again in a heartbeat, just to see Allison Wright again in the Martha arc.

[DrumJunkie]

Agreed.  This will be the first show where I'll buy the season DVD's.

[Bannon]

48 minutes ago, benteen said:

It's not a bad idea though Paige has nothing to trade with.  She knows that her mom worked with a B team but they are likely gone and Paige doesn't know their names or where to find them.  Her only chance is to plead ignorance/say she was coerced and hope that Stan and maybe Aderholt will be able to protect her.

I could see her pleading down to a felony entailing 5-10 years in prison. If she had something really useful to trade, avoiding prison altogether. It's possible she learned something in the 3 year time jump.

[Sarah 103]

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

The last scene of the two of them looking out onto Moscow made me think to myself "be careful what you wish for". Because I wanted them to escape and I wanted them to be together. I predicted they'd end up in Russia without their children (although I thought they'd choose to leave both children, rather than having one abandon them!), and here they are. But without their jobs as spies and travel agents, without their American children, without their operations and disguises, who are they?

They're still KGB. Having sucessfully worked in America for decades, they will train the next generation. Someone else will have to take thier place, until it all comes crashing down in the early 1990s. 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Was Paige's roommate EVER in that apartment?

In college, when I lived in the dorms, I had roommates who were almost never around, so that worked for me/seemed realistic enough. 

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, scowl said:

This was my continuous disappointment with the series. P & E were terrible spies because they routinely killed anyone who could have given them trouble. I wanted to see good spies, ones that were smart enough to never get themselves in that situation, or at least not in every episode. 

Yeah, but, they had really difficult missions.  Their assignments were pretty risky and entailed much more challenging jobs than just sneaking some documents every once in awhile.  P's job with Kimmy went well and pretty safe for years.  And, E did okay with the one where she was friends with the sales lady, until she faked having sex with her husband. Still, no one was killed. I don't think murder was their first choice, though, they were ready and willing to do it, in a second. They really were not inclined to get caught, because they let someone walk away.  But, do you recall that one guy in a plant where E did let a guy live.  He knew she shouldn't be there and she threatened his child, but, let him live?  That surprised me. 

[gunderda]

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Was the place that P met up with E after he gave her the bug out code, a place that could have been on the FBI watch list?  

How did Arkady know to meet P and E on the roadside?  Was there a message that E gave the Soviet Border guard. She told him something, but, showed no papers.  He let her through.  Did he contact Arkady in light of that message?

I have a feeling the garage they met in was probably set up differently than the rest - it was probably a place to use if they felt they needed to run. Like everything else they had a plan for when the time came.  I don't think they'd use a regular garage. 

I was also curious how they knew to meet Arkady. At border I have a feeling they told the guard they were KGB coming home. I thought they had russian passports but they didn't so them anything.  The guard made a call and let them through. 

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 

No, Arkady was pro-Gorbachev, he sent Oleg.

then who was the guy that Tatiana was talking to about how Oleg was not 'with them' after she met with Oleg and got angry at him?

5 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Another thing that Stan did that didn't seem right to me, but, maybe was minor, was leaving the other agent alone in that stake out. What if an illegal or two, had shown up and the guy had to subdue them? He would be in much more danger having to do it alone or he would have had to call for backup and wait, because Stan was violating protocol.   Maybe, the guy wasn't too optimistic about getting any action, but, I think that I would have told Stan that I wanted him to stay or get me alternate backup.  

There is no way they were there to capture someone coming out of that garage.  I'm guessing they probably had people on the ground waiting in case someone did go in or out.  It would have taken them too long to get down to the ground floor of that building to grab someone. 

4 hours ago, Marianna said:

I have two questions, one probably answerable, one maybe not:

 

1.  How/why did the FBI start staking out garages?  Did P and E have space in an outside garage (not in their house) that I totally missed?

2. How did they find Arkady/get past border patrol?

I think they had multiple garages they used. It's where they kept most of their disguises.  They would leave their house, go to a garage, change, leave their car there, trade out cars.  Maybe they moved to different garages throughout the years - I know we've seen different ones.  Elizabeth burned that painting in one of them. 

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I saw it on Reddit. 

I don't get it! Help me out a bit lol 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Was that a pre-dug hole or did Elizabeth throw a shovel into that go-away bag? 

They dug it, but makes me wonder... did Paige go back and dig out her wallet? lol 

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm just guessing that we can imagine that Paige had some money on her.  If she was pretending to be traveling alone with a fake ID, she would certainly need to have some cash or credit card on hand or else it would look suspicious.  On a train, leaving the country, but penniless, would have drawn their attention if she was questioned or searched.  I bet she would have had some funds. 

Edited May 31, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[gunderda]

I don't think Paige expected Claudia to be in the apartment.  She didn't look shocked that she wasn't there.  Still curious as to why she thought it was ok to go there. I get that she had no where else to go. 

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, KBrownie said:

He has no reason to trust or believe anything coming from her.  She lied to him too.  She chose not to tell him and bring him into the fold when she found out about her parents.  And no, she didn't keep quiet to protect him.  She liked the attention knowing got her.  I don't buy her super sudden interest in Henry.  There was absolutely no build up, and there was the opportunity to do so, to any sort of meaningful bond or relationship between Paige and Henry.  And really, what does she have to tell him about their parents? She didn't know or understand them.  She only knew the lies they told her.  She knows nothing about who they are or what they did.  She'd just be repeating more lies to Henry and he's had enough people lying to him for a lifetime.  She's also in no position to do anything for him.  It was good to see that apparently, the school hadn't kicked him out after finding out his parents were spies.

I disagree. Paige has the most important information for Henry.  It's not about their crimes. He would want to know who they were and Paige is the person who could at least begin to try to describe it. That's why her confrontation with Elizabeth last week was so important.  That's where Elizabeth gave the clearest glimpse of them. 

At the time maybe Paige only understood it as her Mom being horrible but with time she might really start to understand using all the little clues she got that her parents were truly and forcefully molded into very different people than her and Henry. They truly believed their bodies belonged to their country. They had everything demanded of them and gave it but didn't want that for their kids. 

That's what Henry would need to know although their parents were usually bad at explaining it.

 

13 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

In a way though, it was Oleg and Paige who were alone. Henry with Stan, P and E and Paige in that apt by herself. That was her biggest fear..being alone.

You know I actually think the opposite about Paige in a way. She's alone in that moment certainly but she chose the life that gave her more of a chance of companionship. Her parents assumed she'd go with them not just because of Elizabeth's training but because Paige has always followed them. She's been doing it from the start.

But she also recognized back in S2 that they are more closely bonded to each other than anyone else. As one reviewer described them back in S1 they're not even like a married couple or brother and sister.  They're like cats from the same litter. If she went with them she'd be still outside their relationship, forever the child and now adrift in a country where she has to depend on them even more. They'd be Russian and she wouldn't.

In the US she can be herself and look for her real companion. She was doomed the other way. More doomed.

12 hours ago, skippylou said:

Renee will be looking for a way to break up assuming she is KGB.  Her "job" is over; presumably it was to keep an eye on P & E.  

If that was her job she sucked at it!

12 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It was nice how even though P and E are back in Russia and alone, they still in English. 

The show's always been realistic in how they show bilinguals switching. If you've only spoken to someone in one language it's apparently hard to switch.

Recall Oleg and Nina always spoke Russian until the polygraph lesson where they use English because that's the language the test will be in. Later they speak a little English in bed, barrier broken.  Likewise when Harvest speaks in Russian Philip answers his questions in the language Harvest spoke whether English or Russian. Here Elizabeth is intentionally switching to start them being able to do both. Perhaps in time they'll be switching mid sentence. 

 

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige won't try to be someone else.  She doesn't have the skills, or the money for that, or anyone backing her.  Also, she wants to be there for Henry, she, more than anyone else, knows what he's going through right now.  She doesn't want to be alone, and she doesn't want him to be alone

Yeah if she was going to be someone else which I don't think she'd know how to do she wouldn't be on the streets of DC without disguise. She's herself she just needsa breath.

7 hours ago, companionenvy said:

 

Beyond that, I think the show is guilty of forgetting that relationships that matter to us because they've been given significant narrative attention shouldn't necessarily have the same weight to our characters. I believe that Stan and Philip genuinely care about each other, as do Stan and Henry. But let's not pretend they've been devoted bosom buddies for years. Philip and Stan are friends, and good ones. Because of the relative isolation of their respective lives, that friendship has more emotional significance for both than it might otherwise have assumed. But they are both extremely busy men who have their own lives and other connections. Stan has been with Renee for several years. He has a son who he has at least some relationship with. He's friendly enough with Aderholdt and his wife to socialize together outside of work. I just don't believe he's so deeply emotionally tied to Philip that, even after coming into the garage prepared to make an arrest, he's willing to overlook the fact that he and his wife are spies who have been involved in the murders of people Stan cared about. It isn't like Philip nursed Stan through advanced cancer or took his family in after their home was destroyed in a fire. They were friends - maybe close ones, but not extraordinarily so.  Similarly, while Stan and Henry have an unusually close relationship, Stan is not Henry's surrogate father and Henry is not Stan's foster son. Henry has his own parents, one of whom he has a reasonably close relationship with. He's also been away at school for long portions of the last three years. Stan is a trusted adult, but I don't actually believe that Henry "loves" him. He likes and respects him. Trying to sell it as more than that is, IMO, symptomatic of the exaggerated relationship we're supposed to believe Stan and the Jenningses had in order for Stan's decision the end, I differ from a lot of people in not thinking that her actions were primarily directed by concern for Henry; while I'm sure she loves him, that relationship hasn't had enough focus for years for me to accept it in narrative terms as the prevailing reason. Rather, I think a lot of her distress over Henry's fate was driven by the recognition that, had things gone a little differently, her parents might be willingly leaving her behind as well

, even if she continues living in the DC area as Paige Jennings, I don't see her actually developing a close relationship with Henry, continuing with college, etc. We heard how destroyed Jackson the intern was last week; Paige is going to be at least as badly off.

 

I think there's often a temptation when watching to make relationships neat when they're messy too. As you say Philip and Stan are not brothers. Paige and Henry did not raise themselves or each other. Stan is not Henry's surrogate father or regular father and Henry is not his son. 

Of all these relationships the only one that's been tested is Philip and Elizabeth.  Warm feelings do not predict how life or psychology will move everyone. Even the body language at the end with Stan and Henry shows Stan comforting him and touching him and Henry not pushing him away but turned away because he has to process this internally. He's not a child who's going to move onto to a new Mommy and Daddy. He's an already very independent near adult who lives at school.  

Even if he wasn't already close to Philip as a father this trauma would make Philip his father forever.  Henry will never stop thinking about himself as related to this man.

2 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

 

, there were so many hints that Philip wanted to defect, and didn’t Elisabeth say in the car that she would too if they could all be together? Why didn’t they just come in from the cold.

They did. In Russia.  I didn't see any hints Philip was thinking of defecting.  His fantasy was about hiding out so he could talk to the kids but that was just wanting the kids. They were both determined to get their news to Russia.

BTW note that Elizabeth who always followed orders because that's what patriots do was the one to kill a fellow officer because that was the best thing for the USSR.  Philip who always thought good fathers kept families together was the one to release the kids--one kid which gave Paige an example--to be a good father.

2 hours ago, scartact said:

Knowing the show to be what it is, I realize (and perhaps this is dissatisfactory for those who want clear answers) that it is quite possible for that confrontation with Philip and Stan to hold both truths that perhaps Philip was playing Stan, but also he was as sincere as he could be, to an extent (I mean, the moment they admit to murder, I can't see Stan letting them go at all). I can totally live in a world where Nussbaum interprets that scene as Philip's final greatest act of espionage, but also one where I can see it as coming from a very real and sincere place. That just reifies the thematic concerns around the tensions between artifice and reality, and I don't find either interpretation mutually exclusive based on the show's conceit.

 

Totally agree with Nussbaum.  It was sincere but so is lots of Philip's best work. Elizabeth has been murdering people right and left and packed a gun but it was Philip's relationship with Stan that saved it. Some of their best sources are lonely people who love Philip even after they learn the truth. 

I have a theory about Father Andre and the names that I'll post in the Philip thread.

[Marianna]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Paige and Henry's destinies were fraught from conception(!):  They exist AS COVER FOR SPYING during a Cold War, in the foreign country. 

They NEVER had anything like a real chance to form lasting bonds with their parents who brought them into this world for that reason.  It's to Paige's great credit that she rejected her parents in favor of Henry (and her truer self, of course).  

I do not buy that Paige’s decision was influenced in any material way by Henry, except possibly as an additional data point about her parents. 

It occurs to me that none of Stan, Paige, and Henry know that the marriage was initially fake and the kids were part of their cover. Now that would blow their minds. 

[DrumJunkie]

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm just guessing that we can imagine that Paige had some money on her.  If she was pretending to be traveling alone with a fake ID, she would certainly need to have some cash or credit card on hand or else it would look suspicious.  On a train, leaving the country, but penniless, would have drawn their attention if she was questioned or searched.  I bet she would have had some funds. 

What kind of teenager would she be if she didn't bum some money off of her parents?  :D

[Marianna]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

I like this. Game recognizes Game. However, then why didn't Stan do something to help Oleg? It would have been nice if we could at least see him try. I always that Stan and Oleg had some level of trust. 

One of my biggest regrets about this series is that there was never a scene of Henry and Paige alone after she found out thier parents were spies. I would have loved to have seen another moment of them alone and to be able to compare what thier relationship was like before the reveal (the hitchhiker scene) to what it was like after. 

This would have been more meaningful if there were any kind of sibling bond ever shown during the series. 

[RedHawk]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

Little details that I liked...

-Philip not being able to remember the name of the colonel that told him about his assignment.

-Stan seeing the little Christmas tree when he got home.

Also that when Philip was talking to Stan he stumbled and couldn’t quite say how many years theyhave been in the United States. I didn’t know if it was because he genuinely couldn’t do the calculation in that stressful moment or because he didn’t want to give that information away to Stan. I’m leaning toward the latter. (We’ve seen a flashback to what appears to be their first night in the United States and the date was August 1965, so they lived in the U.S. for 22 years and ~4 months.)

When we saw Stan talking to Henry at his school, Henry is in his hockey uniform, and the camera pans around to show him from behind with the name JENNINGS on the back. Henry is learning that Jennings is not even his family name.

Edited May 31, 2018 by RedHawk

[DrumJunkie]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

One of my biggest regrets about this series is that there was never a scene of Henry and Paige alone after she found out thier parents were spies. I would have loved to have seen another moment of them alone and to be able to compare what thier relationship was like before the reveal (the hitchhiker scene) to what it was like after. 

There were a few scenes that I remember.  Paige, Henry and Matthew at Stan's.  She shared her beer.  I thought there was a scene of them playing on the computer.  In hindsight, those showed that Paige cared about Henry and had a seemingly typical brother/sister relationship.  If you're asking specifically about a scene of them alone together, it would have been nice as well.

[Penman61]

15 minutes ago, Marianna said:

I do not buy that Paige’s decision [to stay in the US] was influenced in any material way by Henry, except possibly as an additional data point about her parents. 

Truly?  Not even 1%?  "What about Henry?" is Paige's first and strongest objection when her parents tell her (in her apt.) they have to leave; overcome with emotion, she's unable to speak with Henry on the phone for the final goodbye.  I'd say the writers certainly wanted us to think Henry was at least a key reason, if not the key reason why Paige stayed in the US.  (She had plenty of additional reasons not to go to Russia.)  YMMV.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Penman61

[dubbel zout]

46 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

At one point, wasn't Claudia bitching about how American's view WWII?

She was, but that's not Paige's fault. I was both sympathetic to and laughed at Claudia when she was on her rampage at how Americans have no idea about WWII. She was right, of course, but given how communism was taking hold, she shouldn't have been so surprised that the Soviet effort was undersold in western history books.

16 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm just guessing that we can imagine that Paige had some money on her. 

I assumed that Elizabeth divided up the go-bag money between the three of them, since they weren't supposed to look like they were traveling together once they were on the train.

[Marianna]

Just now, Penman61 said:

Truly?  Not even 1%?  "What about Henry?" is Paige's first and strongest objection when her parents tell her (in her apt.) they have to leave; overcome with emotion, she's unable to speak with Henry on the phone for the final goodbye.  I'd say the writers certainly wanted us to think Henry was at least a key reason, if not the key reason why stayed.  YMMV.

It’s obviously a natural question that she would ask. It’s not that I think she hates him, or, that having stayed, she wouldn’t seek him out. It’s just that they aren’t that close, and the stakes are very high for her. She doesn’t want to live in Russia, and she cannot think clearly about her parents. (Or she can, and that’s how she chose.) I just think those are the main drivers of her decision. I don’t think she sacrificed anything for Henry. It’s also not clear that she perceives that she herself could be in any trouble. This is obviously ridiculous - aside from the back and forth on whether they would be able ultimately to convict her, the possibility clearly exists. She gives no signs of being aware of it. 

[hellmouse]

12 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

(We’ve seen a flashback to what appears to be their first night in the United States and the date was August 1965, so they lived in the U.S. for 22 years and ~4 months.)

Wow. That means they'd lived half their lives in the United States, since they were 22 when they arrived. I wonder where they'll be in another 22 years... 2009. Still in Moscow? Still alive? 

[Kathemy]

17 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

E won't be able to get American cigarettes in Russia. She won't be happy.

She'll get Russian ones and they're way stronger. She'll be ecstatic.

[Erin9]

15 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Also that when Philip was talking to Stan he stumbled and couldn’t quite say how many years theyhave been in the United States. I didn’t know if it was because he genuinely couldn’t do the calculation in that stressful moment or because he didn’t want to give that information away to Stan. I’m leaning toward the latter. (We’ve seen a flashback to what appears to be their first night in the United States and the date was August 1965, so they lived in the U.S. for 22 years and ~4 months.)

When we saw Stan talking to Henry at his school, Henry is in his hockey uniform, and the camera pans around to show him from behind with the name JENNINGS on the back. Henry is learning that Jennings is not even his family name.

Good point. Philip probably didn’t want to give away anything more than he had to. He was stressed, but he was clearly really  thinking about what he said- and thinking fast. It was a masterful blend of mostly honesty coupled with Philip figuring what Stan needed to hear to let them leave. 

Yeah. Seeing Henry’s uniform name as he was finding out the truth was a good call. 

[whiporee]

40 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I could see her pleading down to a felony entailing 5-10 years in prison. If she had something really useful to trade, avoiding prison altogether. It's possible she learned something in the 3 year time jump.

What would she be going to prison for? There’s no evidence we’ve seen that the FBI has anything on Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings, much less anything that would implicate their daughter.  

You have to have proof to convict in the US.   Unless P&E kept records of their activities at the house or agency, it sure seems like a hard case to make.  And even if they make it against P&E, making an actual legal case against Paige seems even more daunting.  

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Side note: Why was there a Violence warning for this episode? There were some brutal emotional hits—Elizabeth gasp/sobbing when she realizes Philip is right that they have to leave Henry in the States; Philip being honest with Stan that he and Elizabeth are spies; the looks on Philip and Elizabeth's faces when they see Paige on the train platform—but I think this is the only episode where no one was shot and there wasn't even a fight scene.

 

To be fair if there wan't the usual warning about violence it might tip off the audience that nobody got killed.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Macbeth

[Marianna]

3 minutes ago, whiporee said:

What would she be going to prison for? There’s no evidence we’ve seen that the FBI has anything on Phillip and Elizabeth Jennings, much less anything that would implicate their daughter.  

You have to have proof to convict in the US.   Unless P&E kept records of their activities at the house or agency, it sure seems like a hard case to make.  And even if they make it against P&E, making an actual legal case against Paige seems even more daunting.  

Everyone keeps saying this, but people do get convicted unfairly (in this case, meaning without enough evidence, since it’s not “unfair” in the sense that she is actually guilty). Also, people confess against their interests/are tricked into confessing. 

[SunnyBeBe]

2 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

 

To be fair if there wan't the usual warning about violence it might tip off the audience that nobody got killed.

Really. I didn't notice. Good catch. 

[dubbel zout]

8 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

To be fair if there wan't the usual warning about violence it might tip off the audience that nobody got killed.

I never thought about it as a spoiler, ha!

[becauseIsaidso]

Haven't had the time to go through everyone else's posts, so hopefully I won't be too redundant.

In the garage scene, each of the 3 mains showed their patriotism, Philip with his confession and reveal about Oleg's mission, Elizabeth by NOT resorting to violence, taking in the conversation around her and supporting Philip, Stan by actually listening and realizing that the only thing each of them were doing was working for their country, whichever one it was.

Stan: He finally grew a brain. When he told Philip that Oleg had been arrested, I could see in his comprehension of Philip's reaction that he knew it was the truth. We already had the corroborating scene of Stan with Oleg in the cell when Oleg tells Stan how this is all about Gorbachev. I think that was the moment Stan knew he would let them go. 

Oleg: I think he stands a chance. In my fantasy continuation, P&E are taken to friendlys by Arkady, Gorbachev gets the story on how P&E& Oleg all worked to save G's skin, and some arrangement is made to release Oleg, probably banished for life from the US, which I don't think he would look upon as any great hardship, all things considered.

Elizabeth: surprised me with her abstinence from violence, especially when Philip flipped into confession mode. There seemed to be a moment at the beginning where she may have been considering the 'get down on your knees' command as a prelude to an attack as we have seen her do before. But when Philip demurred, there was just a flicker of recognition in her eyes (fine bit of acting craft, that) and things went uphill for the Jennings clan. At first I thought that moment of hesitation before they crossed the border was the prelude to another disagreement, but it morphed into 'coming home', which was good to see.

Philip: definitely the absolute star of the episode, if not the series. Particularly about Henry. He knew how much child-Henry had idolized Stan, considered him a hero, wanted to be like him - and that has to be hard for any loving dad to take. But they did good  in leaving him behind and in the good-bye without spilling the beans phone call.  I LOVED it when he asked Arkady to pull over - all just to take a look at what they had left so long ago - what was home. I had been thinking about that. I have not lived in the place where I was born for over 50 years, BUT it is still the first thing that comes to mind when I say or think 'home'....so I get something of how they feel, but for them it must have been SO much more intense as they were returning to a place they had only known as full of deprivation and hardship (which some say is the best place to find good soldiers). I had always had the sense that his occasional suggestion of turning themselves in and staying in the US wasn't really his idea of the best was to get out of the spy game - just the most expedient. I could see how much it cost him to, in essence, acknowledge that Stan was the best choice to look after Henry. I also think one of the things Arkady would do for Philip is to arrange for him to at least meet the son who went thru so much trouble to try and see him.

Paige: what and Idiot! Even when momma and papa spy are telling her they have to leave fast and have to leave Henry behind, she doesn't have enough brain cells or training to figure it out but has to throw yet another tantrum and demand they all stop and take a minute!!  Most telling was her final scene in the safe house...instead of going to her apartment, to the FBI, or to Henry, or pastor Tim...little miss wanna have the ultra cool & romantic life of a spy just couldn't take that final step and go to Russia cuz it all fell apart. I see her spending a LOT of time being questioned and attempting to rationalize her entrance into  Spy School 101.

Henry: He's gonna be fine. They will do a LOT of in-depth investigation (but will have to admit that Stan DID suggest P&E were spies long before TPTB in the FBI would even consider such a ridiculous premise), but with uber-patriot Stan standing up for him, and the totally clear background and US birth certificate, he will eventually be granted his parents net worth of assets left behind, probably become Stan's ward for a while and may even, sometime in the distant future, make a trip to the USSR to see his parents - but he'll have a lot to forgive before he can even consider that.

Renee: Yup, never been a doubt in my mind that she is either deep cover KGB, or deep cover white-supremacist (but I think they would have gone for the quick revenge, so my money is on  KGB) I can just picture Stan during that heart - to  - heart at the hockey rink telling Henry that 'oh, by the way, don't say too much in front of Renee'.

All in all, I loved this finale. It really did live up to it's title

Yes, I did miss one more Martha moment...but who knows....maybe we'll be graced with a spinoff?!?!?!?

[meowmommy]

Instead of an ever-so tentatively optimistic ending, P&E bathed in the light of the university (and I really thought someone was going to come up behind them and shoot them in the head, fade to black), plop them in Martha's dank, dark, depressing, understocked, underwhelming grocery store, Elizabeth in a babushka, Philip digging in his pockets for enough rubles to pay for an underripe potato, stepping out into the cold, gray slush, back to their ratty apartment, and a mutual look of "so this is what we sold out our comfortable middle-class existence, two children, and our souls for."  But if Dexter can become a lumberjack, with his only punishment his memories, I guess P&E can skate, too.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

That's right. Amador was killed in episode 9, and Zhukov episide 11, of season1. It makes no sense that Stan doesn't immediately grasp the likelihood of Phil being Clark, and having killed Amador. Man, that garage scene is going to be, for me, the worst scene of a long running show that I liked, of all time.

I don't get why Stan should suddenly be thinking Philip or Clark killed Amador. They all thought it was Gregory who was tied to Elizabeth and that it was about something totally other than Amador stalking Martha. Why would Clark who Stan didn't even know existed at that time suddenly come into it?

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

It was almost like a father picking up his kids who've been away at camp, and they fall asleep in the back seat because they're so exhausted and they feel safe enough to be able to relax. 

Absolutely. That's one of my favorite shots of the whole series. We'd seen them earlier driving with Paige in the back and now Dad was driving and they were asleep--and finally snuggled together in the way they couldn't be on the train or the plane.

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Philip wanted to leave Henry behind, because he was doing what was in the best interest for Henry and not for himself.  I have no clue what Elizabeth was thinking.  She certainly wasn't looking out for Henry's best interests. 

Elizabeth wasn't looking out for Paige's best interests either, otherwise she would have known that Paige has an unrealistic view of the world and had no business being involved with the spy stuff at all.

Elizabeth denied wanting kids before she had them but a lot of her story has been trying to hang onto them. Especially Paige, maybe to undo what her mother did to her. When they met Elizabeth's mother Paige asked if Elizabeth would ever do that to her and Elizabeth said Paige would never ask her to do that. But in fact Elizabeth would never do that to Paige. She'd tie Paige to her in terrible ways before she'd banish her to another country so Paige had to cut the cord herself. So Elizabeth did not have to do what her mother did--but she was abandoned on both sides.

Except by Philip.

2 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

I really wanted to Paige to know exactly what her parents had been doing. She finally put it together that they sometimes have to have sex with people (OMG!) but she still doesn't know about the murders of innocent people and the true extent of ruining people's lives (Martha, Young Hee, poor suitcase woman who's name I can't remember). 

I think she did know. Once she admitted to Elizabeth that she knew these lies were lies there was, imo, no reason to think she bought the reflexive "We never kill people!" with Stan. She knew they were lying too. If Elizabeth would do anything for her country of course she'd murder.

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Paige and Henry's destinies were fraught from conception(!):  They exist AS COVER FOR SPYING during a Cold War, in the foreign country. 

They NEVER had anything like a real chance to form lasting bonds with their parents who brought them into this world for that reason.  It's to Paige's great credit that she rejected her parents in favor of Henry (and her truer self, of course).  

I don't think it's true they never had a chance for lasting bonds or that Paige rejected her parents. I don't think she rejected them at all, actually. She chose what was best for herself. Nor did the parents reject Henry in leaving him behind. They chose what was best for him. Paige drinking vodka at the end was I think a sign that she had not rejected the two of them. She just recognized she couldn't be them. Besides, they had each other.

2 hours ago, Ina123 said:

A

The first time they suspected him he got out of it but became persona no grata because of the suspicion. When it finally was discovered to be true, they sent his dear friend Elliot to try to get a confession. He did eventually confess but later denied that he confessed. (It's a long story).

 

 

57 minutes ago, scowl said:

This was my continuous disappointment with the series. P & E were terrible spies because they routinely killed anyone who could have given them trouble. I wanted to see good spies, ones that were smart enough to never get themselves in that situation, or at least not in every episode. 

Philby also benefited hugely from class bias in MI-6 from what I've read. Plenty of Americans and MI-5 agents were screaming that he was a spy long before he was finally allowed to escape but since he was part of the upper class MI-6 didn't believe it. Plus the head of the CIA at the time was an anglophile who was pretty much an honorary Oxbridge upper class Englishman too.

In fact, I went on a spycatchers walk in London once and when the host was talking about Philby he said he once had a guy on the walk who *still* didn't believe he was a spy. When the host pointed out that there was no doubt he was a spy all the guy could say, with great frustration was, "Dammit, man! He was in my CLUB!"

16 minutes ago, DrumJunkie said:

There were a few scenes that I remember.  Paige, Henry and Matthew at Stan's.  She shared her beer.  I thought there was a scene of them playing on the computer.  In hindsight, those showed that Paige cared about Henry and had a seemingly typical brother/sister relationship.  If you're asking specifically about a scene of them alone together, it would have been nice as well.

Mostly she did the older sister thing, scolding or criticizing him in a way to seem mature. The show seemed to make the choice to admit that they didn't have much of a personal relationship as they got older. Paige at least twice used a story about taking care of Henry in some way as an excuse to go to Matthew's. In this ep Paige again makes it clear that she doesn't honeytrap.

2 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

She'll get Russian ones and they're way stronger. She'll be ecstatic.

According to Arkady, Russia does vodka better but America does tobacco.

Oh! And also my favorite moment in the garage scene is when they're first talking and Philip hasn't dropped the act yet and Stan yells, "STOP MOVING!" because now Stan can see Philip totally acting like the dangerous opponent he is. We've seen him disarm people this way before--get close enough and then attack. Stan could see he was instinctively in fight mode--it made me also think of when Philip spars with Paige and finally gets her to try to hit him for real and me immediately starts this little weaving motion where he's adjusting to her own stance in advance. That's not what he was doing with Stan (who had a gun on him, not his fists up) but it was a similar circling of an opponent.

Then he just as instinctively goes into survival mode when he convinces Stan to let them go--doesn't he even hang his head for a long moment before he does it? It's like he's thinking before he does it. This is his evil superpower and I think it's also the reason he never ever really used it on his kids. Often to his own detriment.

[Kathemy]

17 hours ago, Bannon said:

If you assume the FBI never recovers any of the cars Paige was in on operations, and she never left any hair in them.

Okay, I'll assume the FBI never recovers a car that Paige was in on operations, identifies it conclusively as such, finds a hair belonging to her, and has it scanned for her DNA in the eighties.

I don't think that's stretching credibility.

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

According to Arkady, Russia does vodka better but America does tobacco.

Maybe it's "better" but Liz is a nicotine addict and have you smoked papiroshki?

[Penman61]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think it's true they never had a chance for lasting bonds or that Paige rejected her parents. I don't think she rejected them at all, actually. She chose what was best for herself. Nor did the parents reject Henry in leaving him behind. They chose what was best for him. Paige drinking vodka at the end was I think a sign that she had not rejected the two of them. She just recognized she couldn't be them. Besides, they had each other.

 

I should have been more precise: If you are Russian spies having children to provide cover, then you probably aren't going to be around to watch the grandkids grow up.  Listen to P & E's final conversation about their kids: "They'll always remember us."  "They're already grown up."  These are the words of parents who know they have lost their children, probably forever; they're also the words of parents hoping to God they're right about it.  They are separated, for good.  And the original sin in this final separation was that they, as foreign spies, had kids as cover to pretend to be Americans.  The kids were never going to have a life-long relationship with those parents.  And the finale dramatized that.

Adding:  Yes, "choice" is very fraught concept in these grey areas.  Of course Paige "chose" what was best for her (don't we all, even when we "self-sacrifice"?).  My point is that the original sin was what led her to have to make that choice.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Penman61

[dubbel zout]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige drinking vodka

There's no way Claudia would stock anything but good Russian vodka. ;-)

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Philby also benefited hugely from class bias in MI-6 from what I've read. Plenty of Americans and MI-5 agents were screaming that he was a spy long before he was finally allowed to escape but since he was part of the upper class MI-6 didn't believe it. 

That was pretty much why Philby got away with it for so long. Philby might not have personally murdered innocent people, but his betrayal was directly responsible for many deaths, so it's not as if his hands were spotless. 

[Dev F]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Philby also benefited hugely from class bias in MI-6 from what I've read. Plenty of Americans and MI-5 agents were screaming that he was a spy long before he was finally allowed to escape but since he was part of the upper class MI-6 didn't believe it. Plus the head of the CIA at the time was an anglophile who was pretty much an honorary Oxbridge upper class Englishman too.

Yep. The mole hunt in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy is based on this same idea, since John le Carré was one of the intelligence agents betrayed by Philby. When I read le Carré's original novel, I was stunned that unlike the miniseries and film adaptations of Tinker, which treat the search for the mole as a whodunit, the book is basically about how everyone knew in their hearts all along who the mole was, but they just couldn't accept it, because he represented everything most right and proper in British society that they found lacking in themselves.

In that way it's sort of like The Americans, in that the spy thriller elements are subordinated to a more interior struggle between the patriotic spies / spy hunters and the social structures that both motivate and alienate them.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

I should have been more precise: If you are Russian spies having children to provide cover, then those parents probably aren't going to be around to watch the grandkids grow up.  Listen to P & E's final conversation about their kids: "They'll always remember us."  "They're already grown up."  These are the words of parents who know they have lost their children, probably forever; they're also the words of parents hoping to God they're right about it.  They are separated, for good.  And the original sin in this final separation was that they, as foreign spies, had kids as cover to pretend to be Americans.  The kids were never going to have a life-long relationship with those parents.  And the finale dramatized that.

Ah, well there of course I agree.

Though that also makes me remember that in fact most of the Russian characters whose children we know lose their children because of their work. Igor's son Oleg is in the US. Oleg's son Sascha is in the USSR. Philip and Elizabeth's children are in the US. They all took a risk going to the US and wound up separated. Plus, of course, all those years ago Philip was separated from the son he never had. Even Claudia lost contact it it seems with her daughter. Ilya's parents were murdered, though he doesn't quite count.

[Chaiboy]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm just guessing that we can imagine that Paige had some money on her.  If she was pretending to be traveling alone with a fake ID, she would certainly need to have some cash or credit card on hand or else it would look suspicious.  On a train, leaving the country, but penniless, would have drawn their attention if she was questioned or searched.  I bet she would have had some funds. 

Well she bought a drink on the train...so she must have had some money.

[AMDG]

A few random thoughts:

Are Paige and Henry the Americans that are referred to in the title.

Just because they don’t interact much I would not assume that Paige and Henry were not close. There are no other known relatives and that would have spent a lot of time with just each other when they were younger and their parents were out being spies.

Stan’s confrontation in the garage was as well thought out as confronting you girlfriend with the guy she is cheating on you with. It seemed like the right thing to do when you did it but hindsight......  I would think that Stan let them go not only for Henry, to get the coup message to Moscow and because of friendship, but also because there was no way he could physically subdue them and arrest them and since he did not have a radio there wasn’t no way to call backup.

For Oleg to go to prison for a long time he would have Tom be convicted of a crime. What crime did he commit? Passing notes about a Soviet coup attempt would not Ben illegal.

Edited May 31, 2018 by AMDG
Used wrong word which made a sentence not make sense

[Ina123]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Kim Philby didn't personally murder wholly innocent British subjects in large numbers. This gets to the problem of having Liz and Phil murder so many people. It would have been a better show without that level of violence.

I agree. However, if you follow the secrets he disclosed he was responsible for numerous British and American deaths in WWII alone. We don't know what other deaths lead back to him, but I'm sure it's numerous.

Sure, we didn't see his violence but none the less it was there.

I also thought E's killing spree this season was gratuitous. 

My actual point was, like E and P, he was allowed to walk away.

[lazylou]

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

The one big question I am still wondering about is logistical and really has no bearing on the plot, but I do wonder how long it took Philip and Elizabeth to reach the Soviet border. Assuming they departed from Montreal, where did they fly to? Could they fly directly from Canada to an Eastern Bloc country? I feel like that would have been tricky without a visa. Maybe they needed to go somewhere like West Germany and then drive the rest of the way? 

It's almost 1,000 miles from Berlin to Moscow. That's a long drive. Perhaps the border crossing was not in Russia proper but in Belarus or Ukraine.

Presumably they were able to communicate with Arkady once they were in a Soviet state.

I also wonder how far they drove before meeting Arkady. I was a little surprised he didn't have a driver, although maybe he didn't trust anyone else at the moment. It was nice to see him picking them up and shaking their hands. They were incredible spies for the USSR. Think about how many other illegals were killed - Rob, Emmett, Leanne, William, Harvest - and that's just the ones we know about. Not only did Philip and Elizabeth last a long time in the field, with many many operational successes, but they made it out alive. Impressive. 

It was almost like a father picking up his kids who've been away at camp, and they fall asleep in the back seat because they're so exhausted and they feel safe enough to be able to relax. 

I wonder if they flew from Montreal to Helsinki, then drove to the Russian border.  This would avoid having to travel through Eastern block countries, and weren't they in a rented Volvo?

Those people who are going crazy about their having got away with so many murders need to consider that in most cases those deaths were self defense or crucial to evading discovery...well, not Gennady and Sophia, for instance...a book about Americans spying in Russia might feature just as many murders that those same critics would have considered OK.  It was the Cold WAR after all.  Still, the death toll is horrible! 

I have been wondering about how Paige and Henry will get by financially.  

[SunnyBeBe]

5 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

The one thing I never understood was why Philip was so intent on believing Renee was a spy. His only "evidence" was that she was perfectly his type. When they first brought up that plot point I thought it was to show how the spy life was destroying Phil, making him paranoid and ruining his life. But then we NEVER see evidence she's a spy, unless you count that one scene where she encourages him to stay at the FBI. 

It was another cheat of the time jump, I think. Nothing happens with her in 3 years? If she's a spy she's a pretty bad one as nothing she does affects Stan or the Jenningses in any way. It's a plausible piece of tension in the beginning when we're waiting for the bomb to go off but then it doesn't after 3 years? What's that for? If she's spying it isn't changing anything. 

To me, Renee was in it for the long game.  She played her cards right and was eventually getting to the FBI office.  We can't know too much, because the writers didn't go there, but, they sure gave her a lot of attention to me.  I don't have a handy list, though, I certainly commented on things as they happened, but, I recall that her meeting of Stan was quite convenient and she seemed to just jump in with him immediately.  She conveniently moved in with him due to her apt. faulty plumbing. ?? Okay.  Maybe, that was legit, but, then....... Then there were some of the things she said that had mistakes in them. (Some around here may recall this more than me. It called her real origin into question.)  Then there was the way she seemed to push Stan into a more dangerous position, which seems odd when you love someone.  She also seemed quite intrigued with any information she could get from Stan.  But, the biggest thing to me, is when she put herself down and plead her case to be a patriotic citizen by working at the FBI.  And Stan bought it. My suspicions were confirmed by her bizarre smile standing outside of her house after the raid across the street. AND the fact that Philip thinks that she may be KGB.  It takes one to know one.....so to speak.  I won't even go into the attention they paid to Renee's car and how it was displayed in a trailer as being stopped by a police car, since, it was never aired. Not sure why. I don't know her function, because I don't think the writers ever got that far with her character.  Maybe, they will reveal more later on. For now, I just think that the writers had mercy on Stan and didn't do a reveal on her, since it would have too cruel. 

[Marianna]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

To me, Renee was in it for the long game.  She played her cards right and was eventually getting to the FBI office.  We can't know too much, because the writers didn't go there, but, they sure gave her a lot of attention to me.  I don't have a handy list, though, I certainly commented on things as they happened, but, I recall that her meeting of Stan was quite convenient and she seemed to just jump in with him immediately.  She conveniently moved in with him due to her apt. faulty plumbing. ?? Okay.  Maybe, that was legit, but, then....... Then there were some of the things she said that had mistakes in them. (Some around here may recall this more than me. It called her real origin into question.)  Then there was the way she seemed to push Stan into a more dangerous position, which seems odd when you love someone.  She also seemed quite intrigued with any information she could get from Stan.  But, the biggest thing to me, is when she put herself down and plead her case to be a patriotic citizen by working at the FBI.  And Stan bought it. My suspicions were confirmed by her bizarre smile standing outside of her house after the raid across the street. AND the fact that Philip thinks that she may be KGB.  It takes one to know one.....so to speak.  I won't even go into the attention they paid to Renee's car and how it was displayed in a trailer as being stopped by a police car, since, it was never aired. Not sure why. I don't know her function, because I don't think the writers ever got that far with her character.  Maybe, they will reveal more later on. For now, I just think that the writers had mercy on Stan and didn't do a reveal on her, since it would have too cruel. 

This is maybe more extra-textual, but she serves no other function. She was not important to Stan’s development or the story itself. Stan was the same sad-sack before and after Renee. So why even have her as a character, otherwise?

So not clear why her existence as a spy had to be kept secret from P and E, though. 

[mwell345]

2 hours ago, scowl said:

Stan went from scolding them about how many agents had been killed in the past one to five years... to letting the murderers walk away.

I would have been less surprised if Elizabeth had walked up to Stan, taken his gun, and shot him in the head. At least that would have made sens

This was the one thing that bothered me too, because I didn't feel like it was true to Stan's character.   Essentially, by letting them escape, he betrayed his agency and his country.  That just didn't seem like something he would have done.

[SunnyBeBe]

The only thing that I could think of is that the KGB wanted to make sure that Philip and Stan were not too close as friends and so close that Philip was trying to help Stan, holding back some things or just letting their friendship impede P's work.  Plus, from a script perspective, it was more amusing for P and E not to know, because, if they knew, then we would know, right?  And the mystery was really about the viewers not really knowing.  That's all I can come up with.  

[Helena Dax]

16 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It was nice how even though P and E are back in Russia and alone, they still in English. 

No, that's pretty normal, especially since they're not used to speak in Russian at all. 

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Then he just as instinctively goes into survival mode when he convinces Stan to let them go--doesn't he even hang his head for a long moment before he does it? It's like he's thinking before he does it. This is his evil superpower and I think it's also the reason he never ever really used it on his kids. Often to his own detriment.

Yes, yes he does, and it's amazing. I'm in awe of that scene. I love how Stan is trying to see Russian spies and Philip is trying to make him see the Jennings. I think even his mention of EST is a way to do that. Like, "see, I'm still old, good Philip with my dumb ideas about EST"

I don't know if the FBI could find and identify Paige's hair in one of the KGB cars, but imo, there's no way to prove she was really there. I mean, she was Philip and Elizabeth's daughter, she saw them regularly and it's logical to assume there was some hugging involved at some point. And sometimes you hug someone and you get a hair from them on your shoulder or your shirt. If she doesn't confess, what other proof do they have against her?

Honest question, what do they have against Oleg? He wasn't spying on the Americans. He didn't commit treason. So he's guilty of meeting a Russian spy, but what kind of crime is that?