S06.E09: Jennings, Elizabeth

[Colleenna]

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

All of the needle in a haystack stuff is basically impossible, and some of it is so pointless I don’t know why the FBI would waste time on it. The cars bought with cash were done so using fake/stolen names and addresses. They aren’t going to be where they’re supposed to be. 

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Colleenna said:

On 5/25/2018 at 7:02 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, that's funny about that wig slip.  It must be that P and E are professionals.  Tatianna just didn't know what she was doing. lol

Wig adhesive. P&E would know this;  Tatiana, because she is not field, would not. 

I don't think Tatiana would have needed wig adhesive in the first place, as her mission was supposed to be quick and dirty: Kill Nesterenko and skedaddle. 

Also, the wig slipping gave the audience a clear ID that it was Tatiana. (Though I know for a lot of viewers that didn't click anyway.)

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

2 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

I think all the western country posts were nice. 

I'm sure they all were. But given that at the time the US and Soviet Union were basically THE superpowers - I'd assume the US post would be the pinnacle posting for anyone doing embassy work, regardless of position. I'd think they'd only send their best (I expect we did the same). Sometimes, of course, connections entered into it - as it did with Oleg - for which we are thankful.

Ditto. I'm sure the Rezidentura was a mix of merit/political/patronage/nepotism appointments. That's one reason they didn't really even trust one another, as they couldn't be sure where loyalties ultimately lay. (Ugh, what an exhausting way to have to live.)

Edited May 28, 2018 by dubbel zout
spelling!

[Clanstarling]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Also, the wig slipping gave the audience a clear ID that it was Tatiana. (Though I know for a lot of viewers that didn't click anyway.)

Ditto. I'm sure the Rezidentura was a mix of merit/political/patronage/nepotism appointments. That's one reason they didn't really even trust one another, as they couldn't be sure where loyalties ultimately lay. (Ugh, what an exhausting way to have to live.)

I didn't recognize her, but my husband did, of course. ;)

Good point about the mix at the Rezindentura.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, duVerre said:

Re Tatiana's wig falling off: I also doubt that the Center had enough notice to get her a well-fitted one.

In addition, no one would be interacting with her at close range, so a well-fitted and thoroughly convincing wig wouldn't be necessary.

And as I think Umbelina pointed out earlier, she wouldn't want a wig that was on tight because she was supposed to do what Elizabeth did--get him and keep walking. With a wig that wasn't on tight she could just take it off when she got around the corner and stuff it in her pocket and not be recognized. So the wig was like Philip's hat that he tossed away and replaced with a different one.

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I've been thinking about generational perspectives a lot lately, not just in terms of this show. So I loved the bolded paragraph. It makes a lot of sense to me. And really, is something we all experience in our lives.

 

And it's a great ultimate callback to this being the "second generation" program. On a purely practical level that just meant that the Illegals had a special relationship to these Americans and maybe could turn them. But there's also the fantasy of turning American kids into Soviets. Of the immigrant parents being *understood* by their American kids. (Again I'm thinking of Stan saying to Curtis, "I'm pretty sure we're both American..." and it's all you need to hear to know Curtis will turn Gregor in.)

But Paige isn't even like a child of immigrants raised in an immigrant version of her culture. She's more like an American who took a DNA test thinking she was vaguely Scotch-Irish with some German and it came up Slavic instead. She didn't show any interest in Russia even after she knew. There's a culture difference and a generational one.

Elizabeth, here, is interesting though because she's in between. She's the one that knows Paige. Claudia thinks she can convey the emotional meaning of Tchaikovsky to Paige by playing her the music. Like a Baby Boomer making a Millennial listen to All Along the Watchtower. Elizabeth immediately says that Paige doesn't like classical music and tries, instead, to relate it to her American life with The Nutcracker. I think it's maybe similar to the honeytrapping. She wants Paige's approval and however much she might want Paige to be another version of her she actually does know who Paige is and it's not her.

Which leaves open the question of Henry--it seems like he's the one that's openly not like his parents, but maybe it's not that simple with him either.

[Penman61]

Having watched this ep a second time now, I agree that Philip runs in order to draw out the agents trailing him (i.e., Philip doesn't start running because an agent starts running after him first)...but then what?  Is Philip just getting confirmation that he was indeed being tailed?  Or is there something useful about actually drawing out/identifying the two FBI agents chasing him?   I guess if Philip ran and no one chased him, that's a useful piece of info?

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Having watched this ep a second time now, I agree that Philip runs in order to draw out the agents trailing him (i.e., Philip doesn't start running because an agent starts running after him first)...but then what?  Is Philip just getting confirmation that he was indeed being tailed?  Or is there something useful about actually drawing out/identifying the two FBI agents chasing him?   I guess if Philip ran and no one chased him, that's a useful piece of info?

Totally useful. By knowing the meeting was watched Philip now knows he's been photographed. That's the reason he called Elizabeth with the bug out signal. It's what gave him the small advantage they have. If he wasn't sure no doubt Elizabeth would have yet again chosen to stay and hope for the best. This way they know exactly where they stand. They need to assume everything is blown.

[jjj]

And Philip does not have a clue that things are also blown on the KGB side.  But he knows for sure he will be identified shortly from surveillance photographs.  

17 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Totally useful. By knowing the meeting was watched Philip now knows he's been photographed. That's the reason he called Elizabeth with the bug out signal. It's what gave him the small advantage they have. If he wasn't sure no doubt Elizabeth would have yet again chosen to stay and hope for the best. This way they know exactly where they stand. They need to assume everything is blown.

[Blakeston]

I have to agree with those who found it implausible that the intern Liz targeted would end up blabbing to Paige's boytoy.

In any given semester, there are tons of interns in DC doing foreign affairs-related work. The odds that Paige's quasi-boyfriend would just happen to be one of a handful of guys at a party who helped Liz's target into a cab (and heard him babble about his ruined life) are miniscule.

It would be even more unlikely that Paige's bf would feel the need to tell her the details of a stranger's drunken ramblings about being seduced by an older woman - and even more unlikely that Paige would hear about it and think "that older woman must have been my mother!"

It would have made a lot more sense if they worked for the same congressman.

[Erin9]

7 minutes ago, jjj said:

And Philip does not have a clue that things are also blown on the KGB side.  But he knows for sure he will be identified shortly from surveillance photographs.  

He doesn’t know how bad it is. But he knows Elizabeth is disobeying orders. She’d told him everything and she was leaving to save- not kill- Nesterenko. Of course- he doesn’t know she was successful. 

He doesn’t know she’s told Claudia either. (I’m not entirely sure why she did that. It put them in a terrible position. Claudia wasn’t the only one in trouble.) I would think he knows there’s a problem, but not the severity of it. 

[Sarah 103]

27 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I have to agree with those who found it implausible that the intern Liz targeted would end up blabbing to Paige's boytoy.

In any given semester, there are tons of interns in DC doing foreign affairs-related work. The odds that Paige's quasi-boyfriend would just happen to be one of a handful of guys at a party who helped Liz's target into a cab (and heard him babble about his ruined life) are miniscule.

Maybe I'm confused but I thought they (Jackson Barber and Brian) were interning for different Senators, but that both Senators were working on something together. There are tons of interns in DC, but it's easy for me to imagine that interns with a common link (Senators work on Committee X or Subcomittee Y) might socialize together. 

[jjj]

Quick summary of who does not know what in this episode:

Elizabeth:  does not know the FBI has latched onto Philip and probably has photographs

Philip: does not know that Elizabeth (1) killed the Rezidentura deputy director and (2) confessed to Claudia and (3) told Claudia that she has reported the plot back to Russia [via Oleg, although she does not say that]

BOTH:  do not know that Oleg was arrested and never got to decode the message (Elizabeth and Philip think it is on its way)

Claudia:  also does not know that the message about the plot did not get back to the Gorbachev supporters (Elizabeth said she had notified them already)

Oleg:   does not know that Tatiana has been killed (does not matter to him personally, but he will be interested), therefore does not know that the plot against Gorbachev has taken a hit; and does not know that Philip has been spotted and on the run 

Stan:  still does not *know* anything, but suspects much of what is listed above

Paige:  for all she thinks she knows, does not have a clue 

Henry:  has no clue, but also does not know there are any clues beyond being pissed at his parents for their apparent lack of prioritization of time with him

Renee, although off-screen: does not know the state capitals; otherwise, knows everything  (heh, I can't snark like this much longer!)  

How great would it be to have them all in a room for ten minutes exchanging all this vital information?  ("It's pronounced 'peer', Renee, really.  Not 'PEE-EЯЯЯ'.")

Edited May 28, 2018 by jjj

[TimWil]

Wow, jjj. I’m having a serious V8 moment here (knocks fist against side of head). I thought Elizabeth had actually made a phone call to “back home” which implicated Claudia and the Rezidentura. OF COURSE what it really was was the encoded message Philip dropped off for Oleg on her behalf. DOH. Thanks! Your post really sheds light on how this series finale could rock like no other.

[SlovakPrincess]

I would be fine with Renee not being mentioned in the series finale at all.   It is far too late for me to give a crap, show!!  I just want to focus on the fate of P and E and their kids and poor sweet Oleg and how Stan feels about his best buddy turning out to be a spy -- the Stan and Philip relationship means for more to me, quite frankly, than anything to do with Renee.     

[kikaha]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Having watched this ep a second time now, I agree that Philip runs in order to draw out the agents trailing him (i.e., Philip doesn't start running because an agent starts running after him first)...but then what?  Is Philip just getting confirmation that he was indeed being tailed?  Or is there something useful about actually drawing out/identifying the two FBI agents chasing him?   I guess if Philip ran and no one chased him, that's a useful piece of info?

I think there was no question in Philip's mind that US authorities were trailing and watching the father (and therefore Philip) at that very moment.  He felt sure they would swoop down on him any second.  So he left within seconds, and started running after he got a better lay of the land.  Not to test his thesis, but to escape. 

If no one had followed him, he would know they weren't on to him yet.  But I think that was about a 0.0001% probability in his mind. 

On 5/27/2018 at 11:07 AM, jjj said:

Poor Stan, whatever else happens next week, he will not be able to get away from the case even at home,  because his bedroom looks out on what will be a very lengthy inventory and investigation of the Jennings' house.  

And if Renee is a Soviet spy, as some of us suspect, his involvement will be even more long-term and personal. 

I think we got a glimpse of Stan's sense of betrayal on learning the truth about P&E.  Imagine how he will feel if/when he learns he didn't just become best friends with a Soviet spy -- he married one. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, kikaha said:

I think there was no question in Philip's mind that US authorities were trailing and watching the father (and therefore Philip) at that very moment.  He felt sure they would swoop down on him any second.  So he left within seconds, and started running after he got a better lay of the land.  Not to test his thesis, but to escape. 

If he was just trying to get away it would be better to duck in somewhere etc. I think Umbelina earlier explained that in real world spycraft you never run if you think you're being tailed. The only time you run is to flush out surveillance.

I assume that Philip had an escape route planned out as a matter of routine. He knew where he was going to start to run--not in the park where it would be easier to catch him but at a spot on the street. He ducked behind some people to possibly block himself from view and maybe also he'd scoped out exactly where on the sidewalk to run where it would be most clear. The basketball court was probably also something he already knew about as a good place to escape from since it had more than one exit. He looked to see if any were covered first.

He obviously knew there was a good chance he was being tailed, but he couldn't know for sure without flushing them out and I think in this instance he absolutely needed to know for sure.

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And as I think Umbelina pointed out earlier, she wouldn't want a wig that was on tight because she was supposed to do what Elizabeth did--get him and keep walking. With a wig that wasn't on tight she could just take it off when she got around the corner and stuff it in her pocket and not be recognized. So the wig was like Philip's hat that he tossed away and replaced with a different one.

snip

But Paige isn't even like a child of immigrants raised in an immigrant version of her culture. She's more like an American who took a DNA test thinking she was vaguely Scotch-Irish with some German and it came up Slavic instead. She didn't show any interest in Russia even after she knew. There's a culture difference and a generational one.

snip

Which leaves open the question of Henry--it seems like he's the one that's openly not like his parents, but maybe it's not that simple with him either.

Yes, the Residentura would have full disguises and kits, including everything needed for a wig to stick to someone's head.  We've seen Philip pull of a wig, and how there is both glue (for a believable hairline) and hair color crap involved.  Tatiana could have easily had a wig that wouldn't fall off, but she needed to escape after the deed, and pulling off that hair easily was part of that.  Duck into a store bathroom, an alley,  or whatever and remove that, flip the coat around, add a flashy scarf from the pocket?  Keep walking. 

YES!  Well done!  The DNA test metaphor is perfection about Paige and her "Russian soul."

Henry remains the most interesting of the children to me.  They could have him do just about anything in this finale and it could/would feel real.  He's our wildcard.  (Watch the writers kill him...sob)

5 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Having watched this ep a second time now, I agree that Philip runs in order to draw out the agents trailing him (i.e., Philip doesn't start running because an agent starts running after him first)...but then what?  Is Philip just getting confirmation that he was indeed being tailed?  Or is there something useful about actually drawing out/identifying the two FBI agents chasing him?   I guess if Philip ran and no one chased him, that's a useful piece of info?

Philip needed to know if they were blown.  He could have escaped followers without running, without even knowing who they were.  It was very crowded, so it could have been any or most of the people around.  He ran to draw them out, confirm it, because if they were there FOR SURE?  He needed to warn Elizabeth and start the escape plan. 

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Totally useful. By knowing the meeting was watched Philip now knows he's been photographed. That's the reason he called Elizabeth with the bug out signal. It's what gave him the small advantage they have. If he wasn't sure no doubt Elizabeth would have yet again chosen to stay and hope for the best. This way they know exactly where they stand. They need to assume everything is blown.

Exactly.

4 hours ago, Erin9 said:

He doesn’t know how bad it is. But he knows Elizabeth is disobeying orders. She’d told him everything and she was leaving to save- not kill- Nesterenko. Of course- he doesn’t know she was successful. 

He doesn’t know she’s told Claudia either. (I’m not entirely sure why she did that. It put them in a terrible position. Claudia wasn’t the only one in trouble.) I would think he knows there’s a problem, but not the severity of it. 

It's terrible spy craft for Elizabeth to have told Claudia anything, at either meeting with her.  The first, "I didn't do it." She could have easily said "I didn't get the chance, I'll do it tomorrow." and Tatiana would never have been tapped in.  The second meeting was also a stretch.  WHY would Elizabeth have it out with Granny?  What possible reason?  All I can think of is she's burned out, and exhausted, not thinking as clearly as she should, or formed some sort of emotional bond.  Both were HUGE errors on her part.  She should have run with Philip right after telling Granny she'd kill that dude tomorrow. 

Then again, I don't think it completely sunk in to Elizabeth's mind that members of Center and the KGB would now HAVE to kill her, and Philip in case she told him.  She hadn't completely accepted that her own people would now be as big of a threat to them as the FBI.  Very odd.

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Quick summary of who does not know what in this episode:

Elizabeth:  does not know the FBI has latched onto Philip and probably has photographs

Philip: does not know that Elizabeth (1) killed the Rezidentura deputy director and (2) confessed to Claudia and (3) told Claudia that she has reported the plot back to Russia [via Oleg, although she does not say that]

BOTH:  do not know that Oleg was arrested and never got to decode the message (Elizabeth and Philip think it is on its way)

Claudia:  also does not know that the message about the plot did not get back to the Gorbachev supporters (Elizabeth said she had notified them already)

Oleg:   does not know that Tatiana has been killed (does not matter to him personally, but he will be interested), therefore does not know that the plot against Gorbachev has taken a hit; and does not know that Philip has been spotted and on the run 

Stan:  still does not *know* anything, but suspects much of what is listed above

Paige:  for all she thinks she knows, does not have a clue 

Henry:  has no clue, but also does not know there are any clues beyond being pissed at his parents for their apparent lack of prioritization of time with him

Renee, although off-screen: does not know the state capitals; otherwise, knows everything  (heh, I can't snark like this much longer!)  

How great would it be to have them all in a room for ten minutes exchanging all this vital information?  ("It's pronounced 'peer', Renee, really.  Not 'PEE-EЯЯЯ'.")

 

GREAT JOB!

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I would be fine with Renee not being mentioned in the series finale at all.   It is far too late for me to give a crap, show!!  I just want to focus on the fate of P and E and their kids and poor sweet Oleg and how Stan feels about his best buddy turning out to be a spy -- the Stan and Philip relationship means for more to me, quite frankly, than anything to do with Renee.     

Most of us would be, but it's just not going to happen.  They mentioned her FAR too much again this episode.  I'm hoping it's just a small scene with Renee putting a chalk mark on a mailbox.  I really don't want it to be significant, such as Renee killing someone or helping in an escape.

58 minutes ago, kikaha said:

I think we got a glimpse of Stan's sense of betrayal on learning the truth about P&E.  Imagine how he will feel if/when he learns he didn't just become best friends with a Soviet spy -- he married one. 

The show may let Stan realize Renee is a spy...it's not out of the question.  Maybe he sees her put a chalk mark on that mailbox?  Ha!

51 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

If he was just trying to get away it would be better to duck in somewhere etc. I think Umbelina earlier explained that in real world spycraft you never run if you think you're being tailed. The only time you run is to flush out surveillance.

I assume that Philip had an escape route planned out as a matter of routine. He knew where he was going to start to run--not in the park where it would be easier to catch him but at a spot on the street. He ducked behind some people to possibly block himself from view and maybe also he'd scoped out exactly where on the sidewalk to run where it would be most clear. The basketball court was probably also something he already knew about as a good place to escape from since it had more than one exit. He looked to see if any were covered first.

He obviously knew there was a good chance he was being tailed, but he couldn't know for sure without flushing them out and I think in this instance he absolutely needed to know for sure.

Well said.

The main thing is that Philip is good enough to evade tails without running.  It was a conscious choice, he NEEDED to be certain, and he needed it right then.  He would of course know photos were being taken, and he only had a light disguise on, since the idea of the priest being tailed hadn't really occurred to him.  Also, he was a last minute fill in for Elizabeth on this job.  We didn't see him check the area though, as a matter of fact, he got there right before the priest.  Maybe Philip did get sloppy this time?

Edited May 28, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

All I can think of is she's burned out, and exhausted, not thinking as clearly as she should, or formed some sort of emotional bond. 

It does honestly seem like it's all about the emotional bond for her. I guess just as Claudia saw Elizabeth as like the women she fought with in the war Elizabeth saw Granny as a kindred spirit, even if ultimately they disagreed. Maybe Claudia just reminded her of her mother or something. But it seemed like she told all this to Claudia to give her a chance to run--which was weird because of course Claudia wouldn't run. She'd meet her fate head-on just like Elizabeth would.

Elizabeth, to me, seems like she's always been drawn to Claudia in ways that she couldn't help and were self-destructive. In my head I do assume it's just Elizabeth automatically slipping into her role as daughter because Claudia reminds her of her mother or some embodiment of the Centre or something. She was furious at her for not immediately marking Elizabeth as innocent of being the mole in S1 but she can forgive her for lying to her and manipulating her loyalty for a coup against Gorbachev.

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The main thing is that Philip is good enough to evade tails without running.  It was a conscious choice, he NEEDED to be certain, and he needed it right then.  He would of course know photos were being taken, and he only had a light disguise on, since the idea of the priest being tailed hadn't really occurred to him.  Also, he was a last minute fill in for Elizabeth on this job.  We didn't see him check the area though, as a matter of fact, he got there right before the priest.  Maybe Philip did get sloppy this time?

True. I guess we don't now what they usually ought to do in situations like this where the meet in public. Even once he knew they were blown and was looking around he didn't see anybody he could identify as FBI.

[Umbelina]

Spies are supposed to do a pretty extensive surveillance of the area before ANY meet.  It was so crowded though, would he have spotted that?  Maybe, if he'd spent a few hours there he would.  Maybe he's just rusty, and this was such a "nothing" meet with someone who wasn't a high target the FBI might watch that he slacked off a bit.

It's always the tiny slip ups that get people in the end...that said, the FBI is close to nailing them anyway, if anything, this gave them a slim chance of escaping.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Spies are supposed to do a pretty extensive surveillance of the area before ANY meet.  It was so crowded though, would he have spotted that?  Maybe, if he'd spent a few hours there he would.  Maybe he's just rusty, and this was such a "nothing" meet with someone who wasn't a high target the FBI might watch that he slacked off a bit.

Yes, maybe it was a combination of Philip (and probably Elizabeth too if she'd gone since we saw her in an even lighter disguise with Andre) considering this a meet requiring less vigilance at the same time that the FBI saw it as a meet that required more vigilance than usual. So the FBI was being super careful at the same time the KGB was being less careful (thus the lighter disguise vs. the kind of thing Philip wore to meet Oleg).

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

Renee, although off-screen: does not know the state capitals; otherwise, knows everything 

LOL. Poor Renee. She's the right age to have learned the state capitals in elementary school and should only need a refresher, but maybe that's how she's finally outed as a Soviet spy.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

He obviously knew there was a good chance he was being tailed, but he couldn't know for sure without flushing them out and I think in this instance he absolutely needed to know for sure.

Even when he doesn't think there's any chance he's being tailed, Philip is always very careful, so for him to need to flush them out reinforces that the noose is tightening.

[J-Man]

Renee will slip up during her FBI interview when she nervously blurts out that Moscow is the capital of Idaho.

[Penman61]

46 minutes ago, J-Man said:

Renee will slip up during her FBI interview when she nervously blurts out that Moscow is the capital of Idaho.

 

Or that St. Petersburg is the capital of Florida...

Or that Odessa is the capital of Texas...

RENEE!!!!!

[Law Mom]

So I spent the weekend binge watching the entire season and I haven't read the entire thread, but one thing I keep coming back to is that I don't think Renee is KGB. I think the point of Renee is that she will get the job, see the composites, and be the one to ID Philip and Elizabeth. Wouldn't that be awesome? The FBI with years of work, millions in resources, and dozens of dead agents vs. a >37 year old wife with one day on the job in HR? If that happens I will laugh and laugh.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm still not clear why E, after she discovered what was going on, didn't just leave a message, make a call or slip a note to the guy that his life was in danger from a KGB faction and that he should seek protection.  He seemed to be tracing all over the city, near streets, rooftops, etc.  He seemed oblivious to the danger.  Wouldn't that have saved him, and E wouldn't have had to tail him or shoot the assassin, thus, digging herself in even more? And, P wouldn't have had to place him and Oleg in more danger either if word was sent another way.

[kikaha]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

If he was just trying to get away it would be better to duck in somewhere etc. I think Umbelina earlier explained that in real world spycraft you never run if you think you're being tailed. The only time you run is to flush out surveillance.

I assume that Philip had an escape route planned out as a matter of routine. He knew where he was going to start to run--not in the park where it would be easier to catch him but at a spot on the street. He ducked behind some people to possibly block himself from view and maybe also he'd scoped out exactly where on the sidewalk to run where it would be most clear. The basketball court was probably also something he already knew about as a good place to escape from since it had more than one exit. He looked to see if any were covered first.

He obviously knew there was a good chance he was being tailed, but he couldn't know for sure without flushing them out and I think in this instance he absolutely needed to know for sure.

The fox flushes out the hunters, dogs and horses, hunh?

That might work if you know the strength of the enemy -- their numbers, their location, how fast they can move, their weapons -- and are damn sure you have an escape route.  If you don't know all those things, you're flying blind.  Extremely high risk, that can blow up in your face in a heartbeat.  

Philip knew none of those things.  Only that they might grab him at any moment, and he had to get out of there ASAP.  I agree, waiting till he made his way out of the park was critical: too easy to trap him there (he suspected everyone he saw).  Once he made it across the street, his possible escape routes widened, and he took off like a bat out of hell.  I saw terror/adrenaline all over his face.

I also agree that Philip didn't know for sure.  But it was so close to certainty, he was acting as though it was sure. 

[Ina123]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:44 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Poor Stan will find the tape after it's all over, and go into Blockbuster to get more evidence, and the clerk will run it through, but says, "Before I can see who rented it, that will be $25 in late fees."

And a rewind fee.

[Natalie25]

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I'm just catching up before the finale and haven't had time to read all 13 pages! But I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with everyone saying that Tatiana is now also dead - has the show confirmed it officially? Because that woman that tried to shoot Nesterenko wasn't Tatiana - my immediate thought when they showed the body was that she was Elizabeth's handler in the Russian flashbacks. Her English was better than Keri's Russian-accented English, so she was clearly also an illegal. And it makes the flashbacks so much more important. The woman telling Elizabeth to put comrade before country is directly choosing to murder a fellow (honest!) comrade for her own political gain.

The assassin being Tatiana makes absolutely no sense, so if it really is her it's terrible writing. She's an official diplomat, realistically her trying to kill another diplomat would be MAJOR international incident!

[lazylou]

Dumb question, I guess.  So, apparently Renee mispronounced Pierre....did she get some other capital wrong?  She did call I U the U of I...which, since she said her friend was a graduate, seems odd.   But Pierre is often mispronounced, as is Helena, capital of Mt, and many other small cities around the country.  

[dubbel zout]

30 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

On 5/26/2018 at 8:44 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Poor Stan will find the tape after it's all over, and go into Blockbuster to get more evidence, and the clerk will run it through, but says, "Before I can see who rented it, that will be $25 in late fees."

And a rewind fee.

"Listen, if we make an exception for you, we have to make one for everybody. Just pay up, will you?"

11 minutes ago, Natalie25 said:

Because that woman that tried to shoot Nesterenko wasn't Tatiana

It was definitely Tatiana. We know this because a) she was shown in the "Previously on..." to remind us she's still around, and b) they had her platinum wig fall off and the camera focused on her for a few seconds to make sure we knew it was Tatiana.

As for it not being an international incident, that could still happen next episode, but the point was to show how important it was that Nesterenko died. They had to scramble to find someone to do it, and Tatiana got the short straw, as it were. You can argue she shouldn't have been the one to have to do it, but it was clear she did.

[Chaos Theory]

I think the wig slip is ultimately lying there naked to the world fully exposed.  Like when Philip “exposed” himself to Martha.     Whether done of your own free will or my accident it is P&E being fully naked to the world.  But in this case it was Tatiana but it had the same effect.  An agent lying dead on the street exposed to the world.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Law Mom said:

So I spent the weekend binge watching the entire season and I haven't read the entire thread, but one thing I keep coming back to is that I don't think Renee is KGB. I think the point of Renee is that she will get the job, see the composites, and be the one to ID Philip and Elizabeth. Wouldn't that be awesome? The FBI with years of work, millions in resources, and dozens of dead agents vs. a >37 year old wife with one day on the job in HR? If that happens I will laugh and laugh.

It will be indeed awesome, in a "isn't this writing awesomely awful" sort of way!

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, Law Mom said:

I think the point of Renee is that she will get the job, see the composites, and be the one to ID Philip and Elizabeth. Wouldn't that be awesome? The FBI with years of work, millions in resources, and dozens of dead agents vs. a >37 year old wife with one day on the job in HR? If that happens I will laugh and laugh.

Unless there is some crazy time jump in the last episode, that can't happen - she said she had her interview the following week, and after an interview, especially for a government job that may require additional background checks, it will be weeks, at least, before she starts the job.

[Ina123]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 5:00 PM, Plums said:

pretty sure that's not a thing any church would do. The only thing official membership requirements as far as I'm aware, is paying dues/tithing. 

Not necessarily. No member of my church is required to tithe or pay any sort of dues. All we ask is a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ as their Savior almost always to a "hymn of invitation".  Billy Graham always used "Just as I Am" but there are hundreds. Generally someone  (pastor, deacon, or deaconess) will step forward and have a prayer with them as we sing. Then the pastor asks, "all members who agree to accept "______" into membership, say aye".  I've never heard a "no" in 60 years. They also may be new to the area and are just looking for a new church home. Same procedure. Also, our pastor may or may not have had a meeting prior with them. Usually previous members of another church will also have a letter forwarded to the new church attesting to their previous membership. This is Missionary Baptist, by the way.

Churches vary.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Ina123

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Churches vary.

It can be a very local thing, i.e., not just on the broad denominational level.

[duVerre]

1 hour ago, Natalie25 said:

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I'm just catching up before the finale and haven't had time to read all 13 pages! But I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with everyone saying that Tatiana is now also dead - has the show confirmed it officially? Because that woman that tried to shoot Nesterenko wasn't Tatiana - my immediate thought when they showed the body was that she was Elizabeth's handler in the Russian flashbacks. Her English was better than Keri's Russian-accented English, so she was clearly also an illegal. And it makes the flashbacks so much more important. The woman telling Elizabeth to put comrade before country is directly choosing to murder a fellow (honest!) comrade for her own political gain.

The assassin being Tatiana makes absolutely no sense, so if it really is her it's terrible writing. She's an official diplomat, realistically her trying to kill another diplomat would be MAJOR international incident!

 

58 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

"Listen, if we make an exception for you, we have to make one for everybody. Just pay up, will you?"

It was definitely Tatiana. We know this because a) she was shown in the "Previously on..." to remind us she's still around, and b) they had her platinum wig fall off and the camera focused on her for a few seconds to make sure we knew it was Tatiana.

As for it not being an international incident, that could still happen next episode, but the point was to show how important it was that Nesterenko died. They had to scramble to find someone to do it, and Tatiana got the short straw, as it were. You can argue she shouldn't have been the one to have to do it, but it was clear she did.

And to top it all off, the Js confirmed that it was Tatiana on the Slate podcast. So there you have it, from the source.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Natalie25 said:

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I'm just catching up before the finale and haven't had time to read all 13 pages! But I feel like I'm taking crazy pills with everyone saying that Tatiana is now also dead - has the show confirmed it officially? Because that woman that tried to shoot Nesterenko wasn't Tatiana - my immediate thought when they showed the body was that she was Elizabeth's handler in the Russian flashbacks. Her English was better than Keri's Russian-accented English, so she was clearly also an illegal. And it makes the flashbacks so much more important. The woman telling Elizabeth to put comrade before country is directly choosing to murder a fellow (honest!) comrade for her own political gain.

The assassin being Tatiana makes absolutely no sense, so if it really is her it's terrible writing. She's an official diplomat, realistically her trying to kill another diplomat would be MAJOR international incident!

 

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

"Listen, if we make an exception for you, we have to make one for everybody. Just pay up, will you?"

It was definitely Tatiana. We know this because a) she was shown in the "Previously on..." to remind us she's still around, and b) they had her platinum wig fall off and the camera focused on her for a few seconds to make sure we knew it was Tatiana.

As for it not being an international incident, that could still happen next episode, but the point was to show how important it was that Nesterenko died. They had to scramble to find someone to do it, and Tatiana got the short straw, as it were. You can argue she shouldn't have been the one to have to do it, but it was clear she did.

Also, Tatiana was NOT "just a diplomat."  She was KGB operating under diplomatic cover.  She works for Directorate 12, bio-weapons. 

It would be a major diplomatic incident indeed, but probably not so much since she was carrying that gas chemical weapon, and obviously about to kill another KGB diplomat who was there negotiating for the USSR on arms control.

[TimWil]

38 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Unless there is some crazy time jump in the last episode, that can't happen - she said she had her interview the following week, and after an interview, especially for a government job that may require additional background checks, it will be weeks, at least, before she starts the job.

I seem to remember Stan telling Aderholt her interview was “next Wednesday.” I took that as having some significance.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I seem to remember Stan telling Aderholt her interview was “next Wednesday.” I took that as having some significance.

Right, so, that if Stan is already on their heels and they have packed their bags, I can't imagine how Stan would sit around on his hands until the following week, before he gets this info from Renee. But, maybe, they'll do a time stall.  

Edited May 29, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[jjj]

3 minutes ago, TimWil said:

I seem to remember Stan telling Aderholt her interview was “next Wednesday.” I took that as having some significance.

I think the significance is that we will not get to "next Wednesday" in show time, unless there is an epilogue that does a little time jump.  This episode covered about 18 hours, and I expect the finale to cover an even shorter time period, as the last scene this week is the Jennings getting out of Dodge immediately, and the FBI about to be handed photographs of Philip in the park.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, kikaha said:

The fox flushes out the hunters, dogs and horses, hunh?

That might work if you know the strength of the enemy -- their numbers, their location, how fast they can move, their weapons -- and are damn sure you have an escape route.  If you don't know all those things, you're flying blind.  Extremely high risk, that can blow up in your face in a heartbeat.  

Philip knew none of those things.  Only that they might grab him at any moment, and he had to get out of there ASAP.  I agree, waiting till he made his way out of the park was critical: too easy to trap him there (he suspected everyone he saw).  Once he made it across the street, his possible escape routes widened, and he took off like a bat out of hell.  I saw terror/adrenaline all over his face.

I also agree that Philip didn't know for sure.  But it was so close to certainty, he was acting as though it was sure. 

He was terrified for good reason but that doesn't mean he was acting out of panic. If he just thought he was being followed the protocol would be to lose them quietly by ducking somewhere.  That's exactly when he'd be trained not to run. This is the procedure for flushing out surveillance. If you're trying to flush them out it stands to reason you probably don't have all that info.

He did seem to have something of a route planned out at least. He took a risk because he was so sure imo. If he'd panicked he'd probably have been caught. 

[Pink-n-Green]

On 5/24/2018 at 5:40 PM, jjj said:

Would be fun if they got the actual Ed Meese (Attorney General then, so in charge of the FBI and still alive) for a cameo.  I knew young agents in the FBI then who knew him. 

 

Funny you should mention that because I had a kind of similar idea Matthias Schoenaerts, the actor who played Vanya Egorov in "Red Sparrow".  In that movie, dude was a dead ringer for Vladimir Putin.  And I *think* that Putin would have been a KGB officer in 1987.  So I thought it would be pretty cool to insert baby Putin in the last episode and have him interact with E and P.

I'm really hoping that, after years of loving this show, I am not disappointed with the finale.  It seems like there are so many loose ends that it would be impossible to tie them all up in an hour and a half.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Pink-n-Green

[Ina123]

OK. I'm being convinced finally that Renee is KGB.

The scene:

It's all over (however it all ends).

Stan leave work and sighs. Comes home tired and beat. Renee kisses him and tells him to relax while she goes for take-out.

She crosses a street and makes a chalk mark.... fade to black.

Two years later there's a sequel on FX. Stan is still FBI and Renee carries on the work.

[SunnyBeBe]

This is one series that I will purchase.  I've threatened it before with other series and changed my mind, but, I will buy this one. It'll take awhile for the complete set with extra scenes, interviews, etc.  to get ready, I suppose. 

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

Funny you should mention that because I had a kind of similar idea Matthias Schoenaerts, the actor who played Vanya Egorov in "Red Sparrow".  In that movie, dude was a dead ringer for Vladimir Putin.  And I *think* that Putin would have been a KGB officer in 1987.  So I thought it would be pretty cool to insert baby Putin in the last episode and have him interact with E and P.

I'm really hoping that, after years of loving this show, I am not disappointed with the finale.  It seems like there are so many loose ends that it would be impossible to tie them all up in an hour and a half.

Putin, in 1987, was stuck in a dead end KGB job, doing glorified clerical work, in Dresden, East Germany. It wasn't until after he resigned from the KGB, in the immediate wake of the failed coup of 1991, that he began his climb to influence and power. He was sort of a nobody in the late 80s.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

OK. I'm being convinced finally that Renee is KGB.

The scene:

It's all over (however it all ends).

Stan leave work and sighs. Comes home tired and beat. Renee kisses him and tells him to relax while she goes for take-out.

She crosses a street and makes a chalk mark.... fade to black.

Two years later there's a sequel on FX. Stan is still FBI and Renee carries on the work.

I've been saying Renee, Chalk, Mailbox here for at least two weeks now.

so, I agree.

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

I set my DVR to record every single replay of the upcoming episode.  I have always done that because my DVR likes to screw with me sometimes and not record it the first time it airs.  FX has never aired the reruns often enough.  Sure, the first night they do, but it would sure help if they aired those episodes each day for a few days.

Seems to me it re-airs Saturday around midnight.

Agreed. They need more re-airings.

[Umbelina]

Anyone recording the finale?

It's 90 minutes, so beware.

[Ina123]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I've been saying Renee, Chalk, Mailbox here for at least two weeks now.

so, I agree.

I have considered it a possibility, but I still think she's a nobody. Unless the Js really intend to make complete fools of the FBI and Stan in particular (best friend AND his wife Russian spies). But then, I see no reason for Renee, except as Stan's wife. Stan needed a wife.

If they make her a Russian spy and are wanting to make the FBI and Stan even more like Keystone Cops, it's a writing disappointment to me.

[SunnyBeBe]

Elizabeth did impress me when she got so indignant about how they had to do what they had to do growing up and be STRONG.  Her scene with Paige in this episode was quite powerful and perhaps my favorite, except for the one of her and P dancing and preparing for love scene when they went country. (I think it was to Oklahoma or Kansas sometime ago.)  I hope she wins something for it.  I really bought it.  The emotion from Paige was powerful too. 

The flashback scenes of E sitting at that table with the designed tablecloth seemed so lonely.  What would she do as she sat there and stared at that tablecloth day after day? I guess she thought a lot about her training.   Now she sits and smokes. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Colleenna]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I set my DVR to record every single replay of the upcoming episode.  I have always done that because my DVR likes to screw with me sometimes and not record it the first time it airs.  FX has never aired the reruns often enough.  Sure, the first night they do, but it would sure help if they aired those episodes each day for a few days.

Yeah, unfortunately cable and high-speed Internet not available where I am, so for TV, it's DirecTV. Which is most excellent, except during heavy rain or snow storms. So I do the same thing about recording replays.