Historical Fiction Thread

[Spartan Girl]

It doesn't look like we have a thread focusing exclusively on historical fiction, so I thought I'd start one!

I love historical fiction, especially those taking place in the Tudor era!  Anything about Henry VIII, I immediately have to read.  So of course I read the Philippa Gregory books, but I love anything by Alison Weir as well!  Her Six Tudor Queens series is really good; I loved her take on Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn, and I can't wait for her one about Jane Seymour coming out in a few weeks!

[Danny Franks]

I'm a big fan of historical fiction, although I tend to be disappointed more than pleased by a lot of what I read, these days. Mainly ancient or medieval history, for me.

I really enjoyed Elizabeth Chadwick's two books about William Marshal. A truly interesting and remarkable character from history. But the rest of her work seems to be rooted in the historical romance genre, which is something I generally try to avoid.

Sharon K. Penman is one author who straddles the line of history/romance very well, though. The Sunne In Splendour is one of my favourite books.

For a more macho take on historical fiction, I really like Christian Cameron's Chivalry series, set during the One Hundred Years War. But I have to say, I found his other historical novels, set in the ancient Mediterranean, to be far less appealing.

And for more macho stuff, the quasi-history of David Gemmell's Troy series was just great fun. He wrote the Trojan War as a historical saga, centred around Aeneas of Dardania, but with all the heroes of myth as supporting characters.

[nodorothyparker]

Sharon K. Penman always manages to feel fairly scholarly while also pulling off an engaging read.  I quite liked her Devil's Brood series starting with When Christ and His Saints Slept about the English Anarchy that led to the founding of the Plantagenet dynasty though Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine.  The two subsequent books about their son, Richard the Lionheart, were certainly serviceable enough but felt like they should have been more engaging than they were, given the subject material.  I liked The Sunne in Splendour too for material that's been well trod by lesser writers.

I'll always say of Gregory that while I do enjoy that she focuses less on the famous named men and more on their women living in their wake, better bring a solid working knowledge of the history or at least have ready access to Google.  If there was ever a stray bit of gossip or far-flung conspiracy theory out there, you can trust her to follow it over anything that's concretely known.

Right now I'm nearing the end of Madeline Miller's The Song of Achilles about the title character and the battle for Troy and loving it so much more than I ever honestly had any reason to imagine I would.  She somehow manages to make 3000-plus year-old characters feel immediate and relatable with a sparingly lovely bit of prose thrown in for good measure.  I'm in the in between place of not wanting a good book to end and wanting to get to the end so I can see what she did with the story of Circe next.

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Right now I'm nearing the end of Madeline Miller's The Song of Achilles about the title character and the battle for Troy and loving it so much more than I ever honestly had any reason to imagine I would.  She somehow manages to make 3000-plus year-old characters feel immediate and relatable with a sparingly lovely bit of prose thrown in for good measure.  I'm in the in between place of not wanting a good book to end and wanting to get to the end so I can see what she did with the story of Circe next.

You will not be disappointed...

Another good historical fiction book I love is Marrying Mozart by Stephanie Cowell. It's a lot like Little Women and the Austen novels except with real people. And if you're looking for a more rounded portrayal of Mozart's love life, it's perfect.

[Bunty]

I enjoyed the first few in the Fiona Buckley Ursula Blanchard series-- the 1st of which is To Shield the Queen. The series is still going strong with #16 coming out this year but I haven't found the time to continue reading. 

Quote

Blurb Fiona Buckley introduces steely-nerved handmaiden Ursula Blanchard in this first thrilling adventure in a "sixteenth-century mystery series as complicated and charming as an Elizabethan knot garden." — The Tampa Tribune

Barbara Hambly has a mystery series set in New Orleans featuring Benjamin January a black man who is also a doctor-- 1st in the series is A Free Man of Color.
 

Quote

 

In her breakout from fantasy and Star Wars novels, Hambly (Mother of Winter) chronicles the adventures of piano teacher and surgeon Ben January, a free man of color. The setting, 1833 New Orleans, is vivid and ornate. Riverboat dandies and roughshod frontiermen rub elbows with dueling gentlemen of the landed aristocracy as their splendidly gowned wives and colored mistresses celebrate Mardi Gras, oblivious to the squalor, fever and plague around them. Social and sexual mores are lax. Racial bigotry is the norm in a society that classifies people according to an elaborate scale of color and bloodline (octoroon, quadroon, musterfino, etc.). The plot is a whodunit involving the murder of Angelique Crozat, a beautiful but grasping octoroon who was the ex-mistress of a recently deceased Creole (white) planter. Back home after 16 years in Paris, January intervenes on behalf of Madeleine Dubonnet, a former piano student recently widowed by Arnaud Trepagier, the murdered woman's former patron. For his trouble, the ebony-skinned January becomes an unwitting scapegoat of the influential white suspects. Menaced by ruthless cutthroats, he must risk his freedom to absolve himself. Hambly pays rich attention to period detail fashion, food, manners, music and voodoo. Her characters, however, speak and think with decidedly modern accents, a departure from period verisimilitude that's easily justified on grounds of rhythm and pace. The tale lacks some of the moral gravity implied by the title, but it works as an escapist entertainment flavored liberally with the sights, textures, sounds and tastes of a decadent city in a distant time. (June)

Publishers Weekly - Publisher's Weekly

 

[Sharpie66]

One book I read back in high school in the early ‘80s that really stuck with me is The Books of Rachel by Joel Gross. It’s a generational historical fiction about a Jewish family, from the Spanish Inquisition to the establishment of Israel. I really need to reread it and see if it as good as I remember. GoodReads has it at 3.9/5.0 stars.

[DearEvette]

I really enjoyed  Ragtime by E.L Doctorow.   just loved he depiction of Coalhouse Walker's rage even though I knew it would end badly.  But this was one black man who was not going to be ignored.  Also prompted me to look up pictures of Evelyn Nesbitt.  She really was very beautiful.

Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden. Since most of my book reading back in the 80s and 90s were mass market sci-fi fantasy and romance, I rarely read "important" novels.  This is one of the first ones I ever read.  In hardcover even,  LOL. 

Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet.  Yeah, I am very surprised I loved a book about the building of cathedral.  But it was rather soap-tastic as well.

The Conqueror by Georgette Heyer.  A book about William the Conqueror.  History tells us that William of Normandy was born a bastard, held off multiple assassination attempts, became Duke of Normandy, repelled the French and invaded England to become it's King. Heyer does all that plus invites us to watch him as a strategic military genius.

I, Claudius by Robert Graves.  Sex, betrayal, murder, stuttering... it has it all.

[MeloraH]

The Ibis Trilogy  by Amitav Ghosh, Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel, The Red Tent by Anita Diamant, Small Island by Andrea Levy

[Captain Carrot]

The Killer Angels by Michael Sharra.  That being said the books his son wrote to turn into a trilogy can be ignored.

[Haleth]

I just finished Lilac Girls by Martha Hall Kelly about a concentration camp for women during WWII.  I didn't realize until after I finished that two of the POV characters were real people.  It was enraging, heart wrenching, infuriating, and ultimately hopeful.  The women who survived (and those that didn't) were heroes.

DearEvette, if you enjoyed Pillars of the Earth, look at the third in the series, A Column of Fire which I thought was even better than Pillars.  (The second in the series, which name I forget, isn't as good.)

[Danny Franks]

On 08/05/2018 at 5:10 PM, DearEvette said:

Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follet.  Yeah, I am very surprised I loved a book about the building of cathedral.  But it was rather soap-tastic as well.

I've not read Pillars of the Earth, but I have read Ken Follet's Century Trilogy, and found that he's very good at bringing past events to life, but he does it through characters that feel rather thin and strikingly similar to one another. But I would still recommend that series, because it focuses on the politics and social dynamics of British, American and German societies quite well.

[Stenbeck]

I was unaware Alison Weir was writing historical fiction!

In non-fiction her, The Six Wives of Henry VIII is fantastic. It was an epic, once in a lifetime read.

Henry VIII: The King and his Court is just as impressive, although the level of detail can be a bit tedious after a while.

I bought, but haven't read The Life of Elizabeth I and The Wars of the Roses. 

[Haleth]

13 hours ago, Stenbeck said:

I was unaware Alison Weir was writing historical fiction!

In non-fiction her, The Six Wives of Henry VIII is fantastic. It was an epic, once in a lifetime read.

Henry VIII: The King and his Court is just as impressive, although the level of detail can be a bit tedious after a while.

I bought, but haven't read The Life of Elizabeth I and The Wars of the Roses. 

I just picked up her Queens of the Conquest about the Medieval queens of England yesterday.  Who doesn't love Eleanor of Aquitaine?

[Hanahope]

I read so many Aurthurian books when I was younger, I loved The Crystal Cave series by Mary Stewart, as well as the The Mists of Avalon series by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

I've read some of Phillipa Gregory's War of the Roses books (Lady of Rivers, White Queen, Red Queen and Kingmakers Daughter), and while they were interesting to read the different perspectives of the queens, I needed a break afterwards.  I'll restart again with White Princess, which I believe is next in the series.

[Spartan Girl]

I just finished Jane Seymour, The Haunted Queen by Alison Weir. I know Jane isn't considered the most interesting Tudor Queen, but I loved this take on her. Unlike many authors, Weir didn't sugarcoat Anne Boleyn as the ultimate feminist heroine in her last book, though she wasn't exactly like Philippa Gregory's scheming bitch either. Jane is given similar treatment, though she's more sympathetic than Anne was. I liked that she struggled with guilt about Anne's fate -- she hated her for what she does to Katherine of Aragon and Mary, but she doesn't want her dead.

I can't wait for the next book about Anne of Cleaves!

[Hanahope]

So while working on cleaning out a bookcase to sell/donate, I ran across two books I bought/read nearly 2 decades ago, The Poyson Garden and The Tyde Poole by Karen Harper.  These are fictional mysteries set during Elizabeth I's life, but before she became queen, where she's solving the mysteries.  I remember liking both books, were fun escapism.  I looked up on Amazon and saw she wrote several more.  So requested to borrow the next two from my local library.  I'm going to sell/donate the first two.  Decent enough, but not 'keepable' at this point.

[Epeolatrix]

The Oracle Glass by Judith Merkle Riley is set against the real Affair of the Poisons in the court of Louis XIV. A witty and clever young woman in late 1600s France becomes apprentice to a 'sorceress' and learns the literal tricks of their trade: aphrodisiacs (useless), midwifery (and abortion), inheritance powders (poison), and divination (gossip). Because courtly society at Versailles was such a hot-bed of intrigue and social manipulation, several noble woman (including the king's official mistress) turned to the sorcerers' guild to preserve or advance their positions, and that's when things got dangerous. The more fraught the situation, the more desperate the measures.

[Katy M]

I loved the Kent Chronicles by John Jakes.  And I loved almost everything by Michener.  I hated The Drifters, though.

[Spartan Girl]

Anybody read Fates and Traitors by Jennifer Chiavierini? It's an interesting look at the Lincoln assassination through the eyes of women acquainted with John Wilkes Booth: his mom, his sister, his fiancée, and co-conspirator Mary Surratt. Ironic that Booth came from an antislavery family...

[Cherry Cola]

On 5/29/2018 at 2:15 PM, Hanahope said:

So while working on cleaning out a bookcase to sell/donate, I ran across two books I bought/read nearly 2 decades ago, The Poyson Garden and The Tyde Poole by Karen Harper.  These are fictional mysteries set during Elizabeth I's life, but before she became queen, where she's solving the mysteries.  I remember liking both books, were fun escapism.  I looked up on Amazon and saw she wrote several more.  So requested to borrow the next two from my local library.  I'm going to sell/donate the first two.  Decent enough, but not 'keepable' at this point.

Great series! I have read them all.  I love the era and love the mystery of these books. 

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Cherry Cola said:

Great series! I have read them all.  I love the era and love the mystery of these books. 

I read the Queene's Christmas by Karen Harper and I thought it was pretty bad.  As queen, Elizabeth would have not been solving a murder. She would have been trying to figure out how to handle the political ramifications of a murder at her Christmas court.  And as far as the actual mystery, there weren't clues and discoveries to keep me interested in guessing.  When they revealed the murderer I couldn't have cared less.  But, I'm glad you like them.  I love historical fiction of any era and country, but Tudor era is probably my favorite, so I was disappointed.

[Blergh]

I had to put down Phillipa Gregory's The Red Queen when she had the 13-year-old widowed Margaret Beaufort in the throes of labor with the future Henry VII describe herself as being tossed around by the midwives 'like a sack of potatoes', Come on,Miss Gregory, that birth occurred in 1457 and potatoes wouldn't be discovered by Europeans until 1533 (and not grown in England until roughly a century after that). How tough would it have been to looked that up AND substituted 'turnips' to convey the meaning?

[annzeepark914]

Hotel on the Corner of Bitter & Sweet by Jamie Ford is an interesting story of a Chinese boy and his Japanese friend and classmate, that took place around 1941, in Seattle.  The kids are about 12 (the friend is a girl).  It covers what life was like during WWII for these immigrant families, a bit of the discrimination they face (but not so much that it's depressing) and, of course, what happened to Japanese Americans.  I loved this novel.  It's well written and interesting.

[Tom Holmberg]

Knopf is re-releasing the "Lymond Chronicles" by Dorothy Dunnett in new paperback editions with new covers.  My favorite historical fiction (I just recently re-read them).

[dubbel zout]

I tried to read those books years ago, but I just couldn’t get into them. (Interestingly, the covers then had been newly redesigned.)

[peacheslatour]

On 5/20/2018 at 12:51 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I just finished Jane Seymour, The Haunted Queen by Alison Weir. I know Jane isn't considered the most interesting Tudor Queen, but I loved this take on her. Unlike many authors, Weir didn't sugarcoat Anne Boleyn as the ultimate feminist heroine in her last book, though she wasn't exactly like Philippa Gregory's scheming bitch either. Jane is given similar treatment, though she's more sympathetic than Anne was. I liked that she struggled with guilt about Anne's fate -- she hated her for what she does to Katherine of Aragon and Mary, but she doesn't want her dead.

I can't wait for the next book about Anne of Cleaves!

Anne of Cleaves is my favorite of Henry's wives. She may not have been a beauty but she saved herself and was able to live quite a nice life. I used to read a lot of Victoria Holt, two of my favorites were The Queen's Confession (Marie Antoinette) and My Enemy The Queen (Elizabeth I).

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Anne of Cleaves is my favorite of Henry's wives. She may not have been a beauty but she saved herself and was able to live quite a nice life. I used to read a lot of Victoria Holt, two of my favorites were The Queen's Confession (Marie Antoinette) and My Enemy The Queen (Elizabeth I).

She's my favorite too. She managed to get out of marriage with her head and a nice amount of money. She still ended up being a part of court. Her step/former stepchildren all seemed to really like her. 

Edited April 2, 2019 by andromeda331

[Tom Holmberg]

23 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I tried to read those books years ago, but I just couldn’t get into them.

They've published companion volumes giving background and translating the foreign language material. Some people are turned off by all the Old French and Latin.

https://www.amazon.com/Dorothy-Dunnett-Companion-Elspeth-Morrison/dp/0375725873/

https://www.amazon.com/Dorothy-Dunnett-Companion-II/dp/0375726683/

[cathy7304]

If you like Margaret Beaufort, you should check out the trilogy of books by Judith Arnopp. She takes Margaret from childhood to being King Henry VII's mother to grandmother of Henry VIII.

The 4 book series of the Tudors (plus Charles Brandon) by Tony Riches is fantastic!

Nathen Amin's book The House of Beaufort is great!

[AuntiePam]

Katherine by Anya Seton -- I was entranced by this book many years ago and have wanted to re-read it but re-reading so often results in disappointment.  It's a story of Katherine Swynford, mistress of John of Gaunt, and it broke my teenage heart.

Is historical fiction limited to books featuring real people, or are we including any fiction set in historical times?  If it's okay to leave out famous people, I'd like to recommend Morality Play by Barry Unsworth.  I've read a lot of historical fiction set in medieval times, and this book is the one that made me realize the huge influence of the church on everyone's lives.  It's also a neat mystery.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

Katherine by Anya Seton -- I was entranced by this book many years ago and have wanted to re-read it but re-reading so often results in disappointment.  It's a story of Katherine Swynford, mistress of John of Gaunt, and it broke my teenage heart.

Is historical fiction limited to books featuring real people, or are we including any fiction set in historical times?  If it's okay to leave out famous people, I'd like to recommend Morality Play by Barry Unsworth.  I've read a lot of historical fiction set in medieval times, and this book is the one that made me realize the huge influence of the church on everyone's lives.  It's also a neat mystery.

I love that book. I've re-read Katherine so many times.  

[Spartan Girl]

Finally got Alison Weir's latest Tudor queen book: Katheryn Howard: The Scandalous Queen! So far it is as good as always. Katheryn is usually branded as a dumb slut who really should have known better after what happened to Anne Boleyn. But so far this Katheryn, while fickle, is more naive than stupid. Haven't gotten to the Henry VIII marriage yet, but even though cheating on him was monumentally stupid but in all fairness, she was a teenager and he was a fat, disgusting possibly impotent old man. You do the math.

[peacheslatour]

19 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Finally got Alison Weir's latest Tudor queen book: Katheryn Howard: The Scandalous Queen! So far it is as good as always. Katheryn is usually branded as a dumb slut who really should have known better after what happened to Anne Boleyn. But so far this Katheryn, while fickle, is more naive than stupid. Haven't gotten to the Henry VIII marriage yet, but even though cheating on him was monumentally stupid but in all fairness, she was a teenager and he was a fat, disgusting possibly impotent old man. You do the math.

You'd think she would be glad he was impotent. But cheating was a stupid, reckless thing to do in that poisoned atmosphere.

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Finally got Alison Weir's latest Tudor queen book: Katheryn Howard: The Scandalous Queen! So far it is as good as always. Katheryn is usually branded as a dumb slut who really should have known better after what happened to Anne Boleyn. But so far this Katheryn, while fickle, is more naive than stupid. Haven't gotten to the Henry VIII marriage yet, but even though cheating on him was monumentally stupid but in all fairness, she was a teenager and he was a fat, disgusting possibly impotent old man. You do the math.

Yes, I feel sorry for most of his wives but Catherine Howard has a special place in my heart.  She was a 16-17 year old girl forced to wed an old (for the time), gouty man, who had disgusting smells emanating from him.  She didn't really have a mother figure and had been left to basically raise herself her whole life.  She should have known better, but she didn't know better.  And the picture of her spending the night before her execution practicing laying her had on the block is just so heartrending.  She was little more than a child that was failed by her family who just wanted power any way they could get it. So, of course they had to abandon her the moment she messed up in order to distance themselves.  Ugh.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Finally got Alison Weir's latest Tudor queen book: Katheryn Howard: The Scandalous Queen! So far it is as good as always. Katheryn is usually branded as a dumb slut who really should have known better after what happened to Anne Boleyn. But so far this Katheryn, while fickle, is more naive than stupid. Haven't gotten to the Henry VIII marriage yet, but even though cheating on him was monumentally stupid but in all fairness, she was a teenager and he was a fat, disgusting possibly impotent old man. You do the math.

I'm intrigued by this one, but I will say her take on Anne of Cleves was disappointing.  Some of that was because I like to think about Anne being queer in some form.  I would have preferred her to be asexual (or if I'm being completely honest a lesbian) over what Alison gave us.  Seriously, 

Spoiler

Secret baby???  

 

[Snow Apple]

I didn't know it was out. I'll have to see if my library has it when/if it opens up again.

Kathryn Howard holds a special place for me too ever since I stumbled on Angela Pleasense's portrayal of her. It was the first time I experienced anything Tudor. I was only a kid but never forgot her horror that she married an old man instead of the King! she expected. And practicing on that block.

I've read multiple books about her since then, but always up for a new one.

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

You'd think she would be glad he was impotent. But cheating was a stupid, reckless thing to do in that poisoned atmosphere.

True, but him being impotent was a widely known secret that was supposed to be covered up. Henry never wanted anyone to think he was anything less than a patent man capable of fathering plenty of sons and was likely to blame his wives for not getting them. Some historical fiction novels had the Howard family encouraging her affair so that she could get pregnant and pass it off as the king's to ensure they stayed in power and Henry wouldn't get rid of her like his other wives. So there's that possibility.

49 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I'm intrigued by this one, but I will say her take on Anne of Cleves was disappointing.  Some of that was because I like to think about Anne being queer in some form.  I would have preferred her to be asexual (or if I'm being completely honest a lesbian) over what Alison gave us.  Seriously, 

  Hide contents

Secret baby???  

 

Personally I liked her Anne of Cleves novel, because I liked that she didn't wind up a lonely spinster just because the divorce screwed over any better marriage prospects for her.

[Snow Apple]

I always like to imagine Anne of Cleves enjoying living a contented life as the king's "sister" without putting up with a husband's whims.

[peacheslatour]

3 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

I always like to imagine Anne of Cleves enjoying living a contented life as the king's "sister" without putting up with a husband's whims.

Or his stinking pustule of a body. Poor Katherine Howard! Her parents belong in the Worst Parents topic except they weren't fictional, more's the pity.

[Katy M]

45 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Or his stinking pustule of a body. Poor Katherine Howard! Her parents belong in the Worst Parents topic except they weren't fictional, more's the pity.

Well, for what it's worth her mother died somewhere around when she was 5 to 7 and her father died before she married Henry.

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, Katy M said:

Yes, I feel sorry for most of his wives but Catherine Howard has a special place in my heart.  She was a 16-17 year old girl forced to wed an old (for the time), gouty man, who had disgusting smells emanating from him.  She didn't really have a mother figure and had been left to basically raise herself her whole life.  She should have known better, but she didn't know better.  And the picture of her spending the night before her execution practicing laying her had on the block is just so heartrending.  She was little more than a child that was failed by her family who just wanted power any way they could get it. So, of course they had to abandon her the moment she messed up in order to distance themselves.  Ugh.

I have sympathy for all six wives. She didn't deserve that fate. Her family who pushed her forward did but not her. She was still pretty much a kid. 

[Haleth]

14 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Or his stinking pustule of a body. Poor Katherine Howard! Her parents belong in the Worst Parents topic except they weren't fictional, more's the pity.

That whole Howard/Seymour clan were a piece of overly ambitious, greedy work.  Things worked out so well for their cousin Anne Boleyn, let's give it another try with young Catherine.

I read in an Elizabeth I bio that Anne of Cleves maintained a warm friendly relationship with the young princess even post divorce.

I recently finished Wolf Hall and Bring out the Bodies.  What fantastic writing!  Very witty.  It made me see another perspective through the eyes of the man often considered the bad guy in the whole affair.  As soon as I can get back to the library I'll be borrowing the third in the series.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Haleth

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, Haleth said:

That whole Howard/Seymour clan were a piece of overly ambitious, greedy work.  Things worked out so well for their cousin Anne Boleyn, let's give it another try with young Catherine.

I read in an Elizabeth I bio that Anne of Cleves maintained a warm friendly relationship with the young princess even post divorce.

I recently finished Wolf Hall and Bring out the Bodies.  What fantastic writing!  Very witty.  It made me see another perspective through the eyes of the man often considered the bad guy in the whole affair.  As soon as I can get back to the library I'll be borrowing the third in the series.

Anne of Cleves was closed to both Elizabeth and Mary, ending up converting to Catholicism at then end. 

[Ohiopirate02]

47 minutes ago, Haleth said:

That whole Howard/Seymour clan were a piece of overly ambitious, greedy work.  Things worked out so well for their cousin Anne Boleyn, let's give it another try with young Catherine.

I read in an Elizabeth I bio that Anne of Cleves maintained a warm friendly relationship with the young princess even post divorce.

I recently finished Wolf Hall and Bring out the Bodies.  What fantastic writing!  Very witty.  It made me see another perspective through the eyes of the man often considered the bad guy in the whole affair.  As soon as I can get back to the library I'll be borrowing the third in the series.

The Howards and the Seymours were two entirely different families.  There may have been some intermarriages, but the Howards were an old established family with royal blood.  The Seymours were country gentry.  

I devoured HIlary Mantel's The Mirror and the Light when it was first released.  I kept on switching from ebook to audiobook because I could not tear myself away.  I have a few minor quibbles about the pace of the book and how she handled Margaret Pole, but overall I thought it a worthy conclusion to the trilogy.

[Snow Apple]

I wonder what it was about Anne that turned off Henry? Lady Mary loved her so she can’t be that disgusting.

Maybe because she wasn’t a hot young thing that let him pretend he’s still the young stud he used to be?

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

I wonder what it was about Anne that turned off Henry? Lady Mary loved her so she can’t be that disgusting.

Maybe because she wasn’t a hot young thing that let him pretend he’s still the young stud he used to be?

From all accounts, Henry surprised Anne on her journey to meet him in England.  Anne was taken unaware and was not pleased.  Even though she was warned Henry was likely to do this, she was not able to fake happiness when he barged into her room and roughly kissed her.  She attempted to recover after he sexually assaulted her, but the damage was done.  Henry soured on her that day.  I believe she was warned that Henry would attempt to come to her disguised and flirt, not take liberties on her person.  He put her into a no-win situation.  If she had pretended to enjoy it, he would have branded her a slut.  

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

From all accounts, Henry surprised Anne on her journey to meet him in England.  Anne was taken unaware and was not pleased.  Even though she was warned Henry was likely to do this, she was not able to fake happiness when he barged into her room and roughly kissed her.  She attempted to recover after he sexually assaulted her, but the damage was done.  Henry soured on her that day.  I believe she was warned that Henry would attempt to come to her disguised and flirt, not take liberties on her person.  He put her into a no-win situation.  If she had pretended to enjoy it, he would have branded her a slut.  

Nothing ever really changes, does it?

[Spartan Girl]

Almost done with Alison Weir's Katheryn Howard and interestingly this version of her

 

doesnt cheat on Henry, at least not full-blown sex.  Her family basically pimped her out to be the next queen, even though she was in love with Thomas Culpepper. And even though Henry was crazy about her (or at least the idea of her being his perfect "rose without a thorn") she was still in love with Culpepper. And while Henry was good enough to her, the pressure of not getting pregnant and Henry being an unstable tyrant gets to her, so she meets with Culpepoer in secret but all they do is just make out because she can't bring herself to go all the way (despite her past experience). Not that it did her any good in the end, since she gets sold out by her enemies and family anyway...

Edited May 22, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[proserpina65]

On ‎05‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 11:26 AM, peacheslatour said:

You'd think she would be glad he was impotent. But cheating was a stupid, reckless thing to do in that poisoned atmosphere.

Especially since she'd seen what happened to her cousin, Anne Boleyn.  I have no sympathy for Catherine Howard.

On ‎05‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 1:13 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Personally I liked her Anne of Cleves novel, because I liked that she didn't wind up a lonely spinster just because the divorce screwed over any better marriage prospects for her.

In real life Anne of Cleves actually made out pretty well for herself, even if she wasn't able to remarry.  Marriage was not all that great for women of that period.

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Especially since she'd seen what happened to her cousin, Anne Boleyn.  I have no sympathy for Catherine Howard.

again, she was a dumb kid.  The best I can say for her family was maybe they were hoping Henry would die shortly after the marriage.  

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

In real life Anne of Cleves actually made out pretty well for herself, even if she wasn't able to remarry.  Marriage was not all that great for women of that period.

Yes.  Anne definitely made out the best of the 6 wives.  Jane Seymour probably would have died after childbirth regardless who she had married and was married to Henry such a short time (and managed to give him a on at the end of her life) that she didn't have long enough to get on his bad side.  Katherine Parr's tragedies mostly came out of her own bad decisions after Henry's death.  And while I feel sorry for Catherine of Aragon, she wasn't as innocent as some of the others.  Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard fared the worst, IMO.