S06.E07: Harvest

[skippylou]

RE: Harvest's last words.

Re-watched with closed captioning.

E to H: Mother's expecting you.

H to P:  

(in English) I have a couple of messages. You have to remember them.  For my mother 

(in Russian) I love you.  I'm sorry I left like that.  I thought of you every day.  I never forgot what you did for me.  Don't be sad. I had a good life.  An interesting life.  I did what I wanted.  

(in English)  Remember.

P to H:  I will.  

H to P: (in English)  Tell them the sensor schematics are in France.  Air base in Cazaux.  

(in Russian) For my father, you son of a bitch.  I'm glad I never saw you again.  I hope you die the miserable death you deserve.  You won't forget.

P to H: (in Russian) Not a word.  

E:  Where's Milwaukee avenue?

H to E: (in Russian) Just keep going.  

This is where P spots the suicide pill pendant, it appears to be closed.  

Harvest goes Tango Uniform.  But I cant see where he had time or opportinity to take the pill.  Anyway, my original speculation about code words and phrases now looks wrong.  The only intel was the air base in Cazaux.  

Lots of info on Cazaux Air Base here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cazaux_Air_Base

[kokapetl]

15 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I think this board "spent way too much time with Renee and the "is she or isn't she"" LOL

I also think Stan just needed a spouse. (As I've posted before), If she is used for anything I think it would be fitting for her to walk into FBI HQ on her first day at work and see the sketches and say. "Hey, that's Elizabeth and Phillip!" I would LMAO!

Stan living alone in that giant house was totally implausible. Now, with Renee, it’s only mostly implausible.

[MisterBluxom]

8 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I think in her heart of hearts Elizabeth knows this is an ugly thing to get her daughter into and doesn’t want to spook Paige.  And on some level, subconsciously, she must know Paige is not really suited to this work — she just can’t admit it to herself.  Philip pushes Paige a bit because he wants her to wake up and realize what she’s really getting into.  

Weird that the Center has so far steered clear of Henry — did I miss an explanation as to how they decided Paige would be groomed and Henry would be left to live a normal life?

I never heard of any explanation.

The only guess I can offer is that if The Center's intelligence was good enough to learn that Henry visited neighbors' homes several times without permission, they might have concluded he was "damaged goods" and it would be best to avoid him. I know that I certainly would have come to that conclusion.

I was very surprised to learn that Henry turned out to be such a fine young man. But then I realized this was not "real life" and it was the writers who decided to have him behave like "damaged goods" but then grow up to be a fine young man without ever offering a word of explanation as to how that happened. It remains one of the many mysteries that I suspect will never be addressed by the show.

Edited May 11, 2018 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

5 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

They really cranked the Stan-i-meter straight to 12, huh? Seems like a bit too rushed, as we approach the endgame. I wish there had been a more gradual realization, or that they at least gave him a better lightbulb moment than suddenly realizing Phillip and Elizabeth's disappearances were really suspicious, especially given the very plausible explanation of Phillip's (backed by Henry's confirmation of work trouble).

 

 

I think it's fair to assume that Stan will figure most prominently in all the remaining episodes - assuming the writing will be good - which, unfortunately, is highly unlikely. After all, three episodes does not seem like enough time to wrap up these six seasons and provide a satisfying explanation about The Jennings ultimate destination.

But it does seem to answer one question. Why has this show been dancing around Stan for all six years? My guess is the remaining episodes will be all about Stan's attempt to nail The Jennings.  If Stan eventually does arrest them and the remaining episodes are not all about how that happens, I think it will confirm the notion that there has been a big problem with the writing all along.

If you listen to the Podcast featuring the writer of the "Harvest" episode (posted upthread) ... the remainder of this post is hidden because I fear most people will find it very offensive.

 

After listening to that Podcast, I tried to write my opinion of the lady writer. But I just couldn't do it because I was certain many people would find it extremely offensive. You need to listen to it yourself and make up your own mind. I will just say that she sounded like a teenage "Valley Girl" who was in love with one of the show runners. If so, that might explain a lot about the reason people have been complaining about the writing. Please listen to her and form your own opinion.

Edited May 11, 2018 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

5 hours ago, whiporee said:

Just on a  sidenote, I HATE how everything is a podcast now. Why won't they just let us read?!?

Especially since actors are usually chosen with great care to ensure they come across in a way that does not cause audiences to hate them. I listened to her for about 60 seconds and I wanted to tell her to shut up and never do another Podcast.

This lady writer ended almost every sentence with an upwards inflection as if she was asking a question. Have you ever listened to someone talk for ten minutes and most every sentence sounds like they are asking a question?

In addition to that, she spoke about one of the show runners with a loving regard - almost like a teenage Valley Girl. You will have to listen for yourself. But I got the idea she felt it was through his loving support that she got that job in the first place.

I have no logical reason for making such an offensive assumption. It was just the feeling I got after listening to her and I wouldn't blame any of you who are offended by that.

But please listen to her for yourself and see what you think.

Edited May 11, 2018 by MissBluxom

[MisterBluxom]

8 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I have a question for the Russian speakers in this group.  "Harvest" was the only character on the show whose first language was Russian and he spoke English without any accent.  Characters like Oleg, Tatiana, Arkady, etc.  are native Russian speakers but they have accents.  It sounds like the actor who played Harvest is a native English speaker who learned Russian at one point.  Can anyone comment on how good (or not) his Russian is?

Also, what song was playing when Elizabeth threw that duffle bag into the water?  It was pretty.

I Googled "music The Americans s06e07" and found this site that I expect will let me find the soundtrack to any TV show episode in the future.

https://www.tunefind.com/show/the-americans/season-6/63453#songs

The song was "Broken Flag" by The Patti Smith Group.

Unfortunately, we cannot disagree more about the quality of that song. I hated it and felt it kind of ruined that scene for me.

But now that I think some more about it, that terrible ugly dirge was actually pretty representative of the feeling I would have if I ever had to dump those body parts.

The name of the song "Broken Flag" may be the most representative thing about that scene. I wonder if Elizabeth ever had any second thoughts about the value of her allegiance to Russia and the Communist ideals after having to live through that experience. Probably not. They got her when she was just a young girl and she never really had any chance after that.

Actually, it has always seemed quite obvious to me that "Communism" is really not much more than a fancy name for a "Dictatorship". Just like "National Socialism", the name may sound like something good. But what do those names really mean? Evidence? Putin has had a strangle hold on Russia for how many years now? The notion of elections in Russia is ... what? ... just a hoax?

I seem to recall that Putin has been in power for 16 years now and like most Russian leaders, I expect he will not relinquish power until he dies or "F's" up something so badly that he gets kicked out of power (like Khrushchev and Gorbachev). It seems so obvious to me that Communism is really just a shabby kind of trick that basically results in the enslavement of its people. When I first started high school, they made us go downtown to buy a copy of George Orwell's "Animal Farm". I always resented the fact that if they were going to force us to read a book, they should have just given it to us - like all the other books they had us read. I was such a dumb kid because it was one of the best books I ever read and it has stayed with me for more than 50 years now.

Edited May 11, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Helena Dax]

38 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I never heard of any explanation.

The only guess I can offer is that if The Center's intelligence was good enough to learn that Henry visited neighbors' homes several times without permission, they might have concluded he was "damaged goods" and it would be best to avoid him. I know that I certainly would have come to that conclusion.

I was very surprised to learn that Henry turned out to be such a fine young man. But then I realized this was not "real life" and it was the writers who decided to have him behave like "damaged goods" but then grow up to be a fine young man without ever offering a word of explanation as to how that happened. It remains one of the many mysteries that I suspect will never be addressed by the show.

I don't know, I think he's become "an orphan with living parents", meaning they are physically alive, but Henry doesn't really expect help or emotional support from them. If they are lucky enough to have another Thanksgiving together, Henry will be mentally prepared for being ditched and he'll tell himself it doesn't matter. He's making plans for the summer as an orphan would do: no need to see his parents on holidays, no need to ask them for some advice. Of course, some people may think this is an admirable trait, but I think it shows that he has come to the conclusion that he doesn't need his family because he can't afford the luxury of needing something so unrealiable. He isn't a mess because he's a good, smart boy and he doesn't really have a bad relationship with them, just a weak one. But I do see a consequence of having P + E as a parents with all their absences, lies and silences. Paige chose to embrace them because it was the only way to find the real Philip and the real Elizabeth and Henry chose to run away (physically and emotionally).

[meira.hand]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But not in any way that would make it hard for the kids to have friends. Tons of kids are children of immigrants with harsh backgrounds. Henry and Paige actually avoided a lot of that because their parents were taught to fit in. There's no reason Philip and Elizabeth's parenting would lead to Paige not being able to make friends, particularly compared to, say, any random child of immigrants whose parents were much stricter and expected the kid to conform to that rules of the culture they left.

The difference is that with regular immigrant families, there is usually a supportive group of other immigrant families from the same location. They may have different values from regular Americans but a lot of social contacts within their own community. E&P lived a very isolated life, especially when the children were young and without close friends, so they did not give their children any role model for social intimacy of any kind. I assume they realized getting too close to other people may present real danger and the only reason Stan got close was because he basically forced himself upon them and his being an FBI agent meant they had to be careful and go with it. In a way he may have been what stirred Henry onto a more healthy emotional and social path.

[EtheltoTillie]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It was an airline window.

I thought that was a stupid mistake, even though Elizabeth covered by saying "I saw it in a magazine."  Will it play out?  Maybe so.

Yes, I was shouting "Don't show that picture. They will wonder why you were on an airplane." Her cover was weak. It seemed to be a mistake outside Elizabeth 's normal care. 

[MisterBluxom]

19 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

The difference is that with regular immigrant families, there is usually a supportive group of other immigrant families from the same location. They may have different values from regular Americans but a lot of social contacts within their own community. E&P lived a very isolated life, especially when the children were young and without close friends, so they did not give their children any role model for social intimacy of any kind. I assume they realized getting too close to other people may present real danger and the only reason Stan got close was because he basically forced himself upon them and his being an FBI agent meant they had to be careful and go with it. In a way he may have been what stirred Henry onto a more healthy emotional and social path.

Heh! Too bad this show isn't real life. If it was, I'd guess that Henry winds up joining the FBI or some other Law Enforcement Group. Or maybe he will become a lawyer and work as a prosecutor specializing in getting life sentences for traitors and spies? What a great title for a future TV show ... "The Prosecutor"!

I will be very interested in the futures of both Keidrich Sellati and Holly Taylor.  I expect that Keidrich will be able to work as an actor in the future - if he wants to. But this experience may well have discouraged him from ever wanting to work as an actor again.  Of course I have no idea. But it sure does seem that he was treated most unfairly by this show - and for no good reason as well. I sure would love to know if they ever gave him an explanation as to why he was being treated that way.

As for Holly Taylor? For the longest time I kept looking for the lady who appeared on Bosom Buddies. Her name was Holland Taylor and I got the two of them confused. It wasn't until I had seen a few episodes that I finally realized my mistake. In the word of Homer Simpson, "Doh!".

Edited May 11, 2018 by MissBluxom

[duVerre]

24 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

I expect that Keidrich will be able to work as an actor in the future - if he wants to. But this experience may well have discouraged him from ever wanting to work as an actor again.  Of course I have no idea.

 Keidrich mentions his hopes for his future in his interview at Vulture. http://www.vulture.com/2018/05/henry-americans-interview-keidrich-sellati.html

[Ina123]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That writer lost me completely when she said she's the one who has been writing for Paige for three years, but it was interesting just for that reason.  Not a shocker she speaks "valley girl" during interviews, and not sardonically.

 

OMG. Someone needs to be a true friend to this woman and tell her how immature "valley girl" speak is.

Every time she spoke I just kept hearing the "One time at band camp" girl in American Pie.

[JennyMominFL]

8 hours ago, J-Man said:

The rules about SSNs changed when the IRS started requiring a valid SSN for every dependent claimed as an exemption.  So at that point, all children who were being claimed as dependents (which would be virtually everyone) had to obtain an SSN. This was done to avoid the widespread problems with duplicate, ineligible, or fraudulent dependent claims on tax returns. Supposedly after the law took effect, millions of children miraculously "disappeared," at least for tax purposes.

So how were you (or someone else) able to claim him as a dependent without an SSN?

I)

I have a non taxable VA Disability pension...  I don't file

[Milburn Stone]

I need a memory-refresher. Elizabeth was concerned that Paige would be upset by Marilyn's death. I don't remember how Paige knows Marilyn. (In fact, I barely remember Marilyn myself, except for the last couple episodes--and I guess she was one of Erica's other caregivers?) When did we first meet her, what was her connection with Paige, etc.? Thanks.

[Ina123]

13 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I need a memory-refresher. Elizabeth was concerned that Paige would be upset by Marilyn's death. I don't remember how Paige knows Marilyn. (In fact, I barely remember Marilyn myself, except for the last couple episodes--and I guess she was one of Erica's other caregivers?) When did we first meet her, what was her connection with Paige, etc.? Thanks.

They were both lookouts the night the General was killed and the night of the warehouse fiasco. I'm not sure that E was concerned about Paige because specifically it was Marilyn but that Paige would be experiencing a "co-worker's" death.

[Dev F]

10 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I need a memory-refresher. Elizabeth was concerned that Paige would be upset by Marilyn's death. I don't remember how Paige knows Marilyn. (In fact, I barely remember Marilyn myself, except for the last couple episodes--and I guess she was one of Erica's other caregivers?) When did we first meet her, what was her connection with Paige, etc.? Thanks.

Marilyn has been one of P&E's main agents for surveillance and the like since the end of season 4, when Gabriel introduced her to them to help with their meet-ups with William. Her special talent is supposed to be that she's immediately forgettable; Gabriel recommends her by noting, "You wouldn't even notice her if she sat on your lap." So it's sadly fitting that she ends up as a literally unidentifiable corpse.

Anyway, we haven't seen her interact much with Paige, but they did work together on surveillance on a few missions earlier this season. Marilyn is the one who told Elizabeth she thought Paige was too young for the espionage biz.

1 hour ago, GussieK said:

Yes, I was shouting "Don't show that picture. They will wonder why you were on an airplane." Her cover was weak. It seemed to be a mistake outside Elizabeth 's normal care. 

To me that's exactly why it was such a significant moment. Elizabeth could've shown Erica any of the drawings in her sketchbook without having to explain anything, but for some reason this one drawing on a cocktail napkin meant so much to her that she broke operational security to show it off. I assume that's how she knew Erica was right that it wasn't just about the image itself but something else, some other need, breaking through.

[benteen]

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige would not, even under the mildest FBI questioning, stand up to that.  Not a chance in hell.

She's an accessory to murder, one she knows about, and one she doesn't know about, both military.  She's committed treason.  She has no "out" of this, even if they round up Granny and every other agent of KGB officer she's met, she'd be blown, the KGB would have no further use for her and she'd be eliminated if needed.  They might try, if it wasn't too difficult, to get her to Russia to live out her useless life there, because of her parent's sacrifices and excellent work. 

Here?  The ONLY realistic answer is life in prison.

I'm not sad about that, I really don't care for idiotic zealots much.

Agreed.  Paige would crack like an egg.  She's not even a fraction as clever as she thinks she is. 

[SunnyBeBe]

JJJ, I'm also really anxious to find out what Renee's role, if any is.  Will she STOP Stan from going after P & E?  BECAUSE, if she doesn't, then there really is nothing preventing Stan from the very LEAST, discovering that their identities are bogus or sketchy.  Once that is done, he would reveal his suspicions of them being illegals and killers to Aderholt, and then, the cards will fold.  I can't imagine anything that would STOP Stan in his tracks, so that he would not check on P & E further. AND I see no clear way for Henry.  IF P & E run for it, the truth comes out and Henry would be invited to leave the school.  If they are arrested, also invited to leave the school. And, if they are killed (if the reason is make public), he would be invited to leave the school.  So, the only hope for Henry to remain in his school, is if Stan chooses to not explore his parents further OR someone STOPS STAN before he tips off who he's looking at.  

I wonder if P will check in to see if Kimmie made it back from Greece.

[EtheltoTillie]

11 minutes ago, Dev F said:

.

To me that's exactly why it was such a significant moment. Elizabeth could've shown Erica any of the drawings in her sketchbook without having to explain anything, but for some reason this one drawing on a cocktail napkin meant so much to her that she broke operational security to show it off. I assume that's how she knew Erica was right that it wasn't just about the image itself but something else, some other need, breaking through.

I agree. It was so unusual there must be more significance to it. Stay tuned. 

[JFParnell]

On 5/10/2018 at 8:25 AM, MissBluxom said:

I'm not the brightest shed in the bulb ... but I don't recall ever seeing you post before.

You should post more often.

Why, thank you, kindly! 

[JFParnell]

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

OMG. Someone needs to be a true friend to this woman and tell her how immature "valley girl" speak is.

Every time she spoke I just kept hearing the "One time at band camp" girl in American Pie.

Thank you and @MissBluxom for taking the heat and listening to it! I'm going to punk out and pass on it. I just don't have any trouble imagining the uptalking writer and I have a feeling I might gouge my own eyes out with a plastic spoon before the podcast even ended.

[BetyBee]

14 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I have got to stop reading the anti-Paige stuff.  It ruins the show for me.  Its no ones fault that you don't like Paige and I do.   But reading peoples post and how much people hate Paige comes close to making me avoid wanting to post on groups.  I keep coming back because I have things to say but.....I love the character and I just don't get the hate.  And I am close to being offended by the hatred.  But that is on me and the show is almost over so whenever I start reading someones post that starts dissing on Paige I stop reading it.    But I would love to see her go on to be spy for Russia.   I am not sure that is the way the story would unfold.  It is just as likely that her signing up for the State Department is the irony that gets her family found out.  But I would honestly love to see that part of the plan actually work.  Her parents disappear into the darkness and Paige go on to spy for Russia.  That would be the ultimate ending for me.  

I don't enjoy the Henry bashing, but I just scroll on by.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so disagreements are not surprising.  

Each episode leaves me wanting to know how this story will end.  That is probably what the writers want; however I'm going to be disappointed if Stan finally figuring out things is portrayed as brilliant. Especially after Gaad was ousted for far less.  That said, I do like Stan.  Mostly I wonder who will survive and what will happen to the kids, especially Henry.  And I what to know what the deal is with Renee, and if she's anything besides a loyal wife.  

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, duVerre said:

 Keidrich mentions his hopes for his future in his interview at Vulture. http://www.vulture.com/2018/05/henry-americans-interview-keidrich-sellati.html

Thank  you for posting that.

[Clanstarling]

11 hours ago, duVerre said:

My hospital birth certificate has my footprints on it. It's hanging on the wall and I'm looking at it now. I was born in 1951.

Granted, I was born in Ontario, Canada, and I don't know if this applies to the U.S.  But the two countries are fairly alike in these things.

I've been googling around, and the record-keeping of such prints seems to change depending on the hospital involved. Apparently, prints are taken both as keepsakes for the parents and to use as hospital i.d., should other methods of i.d. (e.g. plastic wrist and ankle bands) fail. 

Mine doesn't have footprints, but they don't count as I was born overseas. My husband's doesn't, he's around your age. I suspect it varies. The real question is whether or not any of those footprints were put into a searchable database so they could be compared. Same thing as DNA.  Having the sample doesn't help much, if there's no matching sample in the database with identifiers to tie it to.  I do remember in the 80's there being a push to keep some kind of database of infant footprints to identify kidnapped children. But I don't really remember the details.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Some of them don't speak English with a Russian accent in real life, for example Annet Mahendru.  Just Youtube her, she can speak perfect English as well as Russian.

Some people are able to speak a foreign language without an accent - like Mahendru - some are not (Henry Kissinger). The ability is  called something like "having the ear". My daughter can speak French w/o an accent, I can speak German, and used to be able to speak Spanish the same way. When I was going to a German realschule in the 8th grade, a German I encountered was astonished that I was American. She just thought my grammar was terrible. I wasn't sure whether to be proud or offended. LOL.

9 hours ago, J-Man said:

The rules about SSNs changed when the IRS started requiring a valid SSN for every dependent claimed as an exemption.  So at that point, all children who were being claimed as dependents (which would be virtually everyone) had to obtain an SSN. This was done to avoid the widespread problems with duplicate, ineligible, or fraudulent dependent claims on tax returns. Supposedly after the law took effect, millions of children miraculously "disappeared," at least for tax purposes.

When my oldest applied for college, there was someone else using her social, as some other college student was using it. We had to go through some steps to prove it was hers. I never did hear what happened with the other student.

[MisterBluxom]

49 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

JJJ, I'm also really anxious to find out what Renee's role, if any is.  Will she STOP Stan from going after P & E?  BECAUSE, if she doesn't, then there really is nothing preventing Stan from the very LEAST, discovering that their identities are bogus or sketchy.  Once that is done, he would reveal his suspicions of them being illegals and killers to Aderholt, and then, the cards will fold.  I can't imagine anything that would STOP Stan in his tracks, so that he would not check on P & E further. AND I see no clear way for Henry.  IF P & E run for it, the truth comes out and Henry would be invited to leave the school.  If they are arrested, also invited to leave the school. And, if they are killed (if the reason is make public), he would be invited to leave the school.  So, the only hope for Henry to remain in his school, is if Stan chooses to not explore his parents further OR someone STOPS STAN before he tips off who he's looking at.  

I wonder if P will check in to see if Kimmie made it back from Greece.

Your feelings are very understandable. But I hope you won't become seriously invested in receiving any explanations.

After all, if they didn't explain hardly anything about Agent Gaad's death, it's hard to imagine we'll get much of an explanation about Renee. I suggest you try to expect nothing and if they give us any tiny snippet of an explanation, you can then feel real happy about that. I wonder if they believe we are happy to have these puzzles we can work on for ourselves?

Like anyone who has ever painted themselves into a corner, the writers now have a tiny amount of time left to resolve some very large and complicated issues. Something has to give and I have a feelingit ow==wonl

Edited May 11, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I seem to recall that Putin has been in power for 16 years now and like most Russian leaders, I expect he will not relinquish power until he dies or "F's" up something so badly that he gets kicked out of power (like Khrushchev and Gorbachev). I

18 years, actually. He was inaugurated on May 7, 2000. I do a day in history thing at work every day, so this was recent enough that I remembered.

The other day in history item that's vaguely connected to the show is that J Edgar Hoover was appointed FBI Director on May 10 in 1926 - and died in office in 1972. That's 48 years as the top guy in the Bureau.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Clanstarling

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

Marilyn has been one of P&E's main agents for surveillance and the like since the end of season 4, when Gabriel introduced her to them to help with their meet-ups with William. Her special talent is supposed to be that she's immediately forgettable; Gabriel recommends her by noting, "You wouldn't even notice her if she sat on your lap." So it's sadly fitting that she ends up as a literally unidentifiable corpse.

It's also sadly ironic (or meta, or something) that my question was spurred by the fact that, as I wrote, "I barely remember Marilyn myself." Gabriel's assessment completely validated! 

[SunnyBeBe]

8 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

It's also sadly ironic (or meta, or something) that my question was spurred by the fact that, as I wrote, "I barely remember Marilyn myself." Gabriel's assessment completely validated! 

Marilyn should have ducked before plowing full steam towards the officers.  And, Harvest should have been handed a bullet proof vest as soon as he got into the van and told to lie down flat, not peering out the windows.  Oh well.....it had to go down that way, I suppose.  So, with that encounter, it was Russians: 2 dead. Americans 2 dead. 

[Erin9]

24 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

It's also sadly ironic (or meta, or something) that my question was spurred by the fact that, as I wrote, "I barely remember Marilyn myself." Gabriel's assessment completely validated! 

True.

But we never got to know her anyway. She was just “there.” We knew Hans better, even though he was little more than a lookout later. 

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Tons of kids are children of immigrants with harsh backgrounds.

When Paige and Henry were growing up, they didn't know their parents were immigrants. And Elizabeth and Philip had to raise the kids as if they (P and E) were Americans, not immigrants. Of course their own childhood experiences couldn't help but influence certain aspects, but they couldn't tell the kids how rough things had been for them except maybe in the most generic way. 

[benteen]

I think when Henry learns the truth, he'd also face an identity crisis too.  Henry Jennings is his birth name and that certificate would be real but Jennings is just a made up name the KGB gave his parents.

[SlovakPrincess]

I think in the next few episodes Stan will realize he’s been actively avoiding knowing what he should’ve looked into or suspected about the Jennings.   Between being a lonely guy who needs friends — and his epic fuck ups with murdering Vlad and letting Nina get so far in trouble she was eventually executed — Stan has had reasons to doubt / deny his intuition.

Glad we finally got a little insight into motivated Paige — fear of loneliness and a deep need for her mother’s approval.  

[jjj]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I need a memory-refresher. Elizabeth was concerned that Paige would be upset by Marilyn's death. I don't remember how Paige knows Marilyn. (In fact, I barely remember Marilyn myself, except for the last couple episodes--and I guess she was one of Erica's other caregivers?) When did we first meet her, what was her connection with Paige, etc.? Thanks.

Actually, Marilyn seemed to be doing a lot of Paige's training, although she did not know Paige's real name or that she is Elizabeth's daughter.  There were a few references to this, but I most clearly remember Elizabeth/Marilyn in a car talking about following Stan, and Elizabeth told her not to use "Julie" (Paige), because she was not ready for it.  This implied that Marilyn was giving Paige assignments.  

Edited May 11, 2018 by jjj

[TaurusRose]

19 hours ago, anonymiss said:

She seems like an empty vessel. She hasn't been developed as a believable human being, let alone aspiring spy. She exists only as a convenient plot device who somehow escaped all the influences of American life and popular culture. She doesn't have any hobbies or interests (except a convenient desire springing out of nowhere at a wee age to dedicate her life to making a difference) and only has superficial critical thinking, replete with a default deer-in-headlights expression. 

Paige is a pretty and seemingly normal white girl. She wouldn't have to "put her mind" into forming friendships. If they wanted to be less lazy they could have developed that Paige has extreme shyness or some impediment that makes her get bullied like a speech impediment (she already has poorly affected delayed speech), or was the target of mean girl bullying for being a mega-nerd and now is traumatized. But she is a pretty and "normal" girl who has never been abused or mistreated and was given the things she needed to fit in (as was Henry). Paige is just too well adjusted for any of this to be believable.

 

Not trying to pick your comment apart, but it cracks me up that in the U.S. any young white girl is always “pretty” whether she is or not. Double points if average looking young white girl has blonde hair. The word means almost nothing now.  IMHO, Paige is quite average in all respects including appearance. And Holly Taylor is a piss poor actress period. As has been pointed out, an actress with a moderate skill level could compensate for poor character development. She cannot.

Edited May 11, 2018 by taurusrose

[Juliegirlj]

Stan has figured out that Phillip and Elizabeth are Russian spies. Proof : 

Spoiler

Before William died he told Stan that the Russian spies were a married couple and that “She is pretty and HE is lucky”. During his search of the Jennings house, Stan gazed at their family portrait and said “ He is lucky”........

Poor Stan. 

[jjj]

Ha!  Glad someone else is still willing to help carry the torch of Renee-suspicion!  And I think we have seen the last of Kimmie.  Hope she takes that Michigan degree into a great career, and I wonder if she will ever learn of her role in the spy business. 

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

JJJ, I'm also really anxious to find out what Renee's role, if any. [snip]

I wonder if P will check in to see if Kimmie made it back from Greece.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yeah, if they just leave the Renee thing hanging, I'm going to be mighty ticked.  If all we get to see is Stan come home and show his pain and shock to her about losing his best friend and job, and she just comforts him and it fades to black......uhhhh.....I hope not. 

[Sarah 103]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

The only guess I can offer is that if The Center's intelligence was good enough to learn that Henry visited neighbors' homes several times without permission, they might have concluded he was "damaged goods" and it would be best to avoid him. I know that I certainly would have come to that conclusion.

Isn't that who they would want, someone who can get in and out of a room without being detected? My theory is that seeing how things went with Paige, the Center may have decided that waiting a little longer to recuit is a better idea. Henry going to boarding school probably impacted thier plans as well. 

6 hours ago, GussieK said:

Yes, I was shouting "Don't show that picture. They will wonder why you were on an airplane." Her cover was weak. It seemed to be a mistake outside Elizabeth 's normal care. 

I don't know what magazine ads were like in the 1980s, but I could picture an ad for an airline, a travel company, or something involving an airplane window. 

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I think when Henry learns the truth, he'd also face an identity crisis too.  Henry Jennings is his birth name and that certificate would be real but Jennings is just a made up name the KGB gave his parents.

There was a real Philip Jennings. He died as an infant. The KGB used that birth certificate for Philip, and when he "married" Elizabeth, she took his last name. I can't wait to see how Henry learns the truth and how reacts to the news. 

[dubbel zout]

4 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

6 hours ago, GussieK said:

Yes, I was shouting "Don't show that picture. They will wonder why you were on an airplane." Her cover was weak. It seemed to be a mistake outside Elizabeth 's normal care. 

I don't know what magazine ads were like in the 1980s, but I could picture an ad for an airline, a travel company, or something involving an airplane window. 

Yeah, this is why I didn't see it as Elizabeth making any sort of mistake.

Edited May 11, 2018 by dubbel zout

[EtheltoTillie]

13 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Yeah, this is why I didn't see it as Elizabeth making any sort of mistake.

 

We can agree to disagree.  I think it was sort of weak.  She realized she had to say something, so she came up with the magazine explanation on the fly.  Yes, there could have been such a picture, but she's been drawing from real objects, not from illustrations--so it was still an odd choice, and the artist lady gave her the side eye.

Can't wait to see if this factors into anything next week.  It looks like

Spoiler

the suspect sketches will be showing up next week.  More art! 

Edited May 11, 2018 by GussieK

[mattie0808]

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

 

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I never heard of any explanation.

The only guess I can offer is that if The Center's intelligence was good enough to learn that Henry visited neighbors' homes several times without permission, they might have concluded he was "damaged goods" and it would be best to avoid him. I know that I certainly would have come to that conclusion.

I was very surprised to learn that Henry turned out to be such a fine young man. But then I realized this was not "real life" and it was the writers who decided to have him behave like "damaged goods" but then grow up to be a fine young man without ever offering a word of explanation as to how that happened. It remains one of the many mysteries that I suspect will never be addressed by the show.

 

Because he would have shown just waaaay too much natural aptitude for tradecraft? Because spies (particularly spies who would be working against the interest of their own country) are generally “fine people”? ;)

That it has apparently not ONCE crossed P/E’s minds, even as a passing joke, that Henry is much more cut out for this spying stuff than Paige boggles my mind. I mean, Paige goes to a kinda left-leaning church and Gabriel and the Center know and to Elizabeth in particular it’s a SIGN. Henry conducts covert surveillance, breaches a target, makes use of the target’s supplies, and does this for some time without getting caught...and he’s just...naughty? Paige needs to get that internship at the State Department and somehow her college (and apartment) is being paid for, meanwhile Henry (secretly!) got himself into a high school just chock full of the children of public and private sector movers and shakers and...no one’s interested in having him graduate from there?

This is just one of those things that makes NO SENSE.

 

I don’t think Henry is or was “damaged goods” — I think he’s actually grown up remarkably well all things considered, and none of his hijinx as a kid were all that crazy. Right now, he’s accomplished, driven, hard-working, perceptive and accepting. And his world is about to collapse around him. Hope he finds a way to make it through.

[KarenX]

13 minutes ago, GussieK said:

We can agree to disagree.  I think it was sort of weak.  She realized she had to say something, so she came up with the magazine explanation on the fly.  Yes, there could have been such a picture, but she's been drawing from real objects, not from illustrations--so it was still an odd choice, and the artist lady gave her the side eye.

It might NOT have been an odd, suspicious choice if she had a good story for why she was drawn to a picture in a magazine. If she had sincerely drawn her picture from an ad because it inspired her in some way, she would have been able to say it. But! We know she was lying/covering up and why. Artist knew she was lying and covering up, too, and if she hadn't been in so much pain and so short of time she might have pursued the lie. Lucky for Elizabeth she moved on.

[Cardie]

4 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

When Marilyn was pulled out of that van, dead as a door nail, she wasn't wearing any gloves.  That means that van should be full of her fingerprints.  Cutting off her head and hands at that point is all kinds of useless, with the van just sitting there with her fingerprints inside it.

But there are likely no Marilyn fingerprints on file and because the van would be full of prints, it would be difficult to pinpoint which ones belonged to the handless corpse in the garage.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige would not, even under the mildest FBI questioning, stand up to that.  Not a chance in hell.

She's an accessory to murder, one she knows about, and one she doesn't know about, both military.  She's committed treason.  She has no "out" of this, even if they round up Granny and every other agent of KGB officer she's met, she'd be blown, the KGB would have no further use for her and she'd be eliminated if needed.  They might try, if it wasn't too difficult, to get her to Russia to live out her useless life there, because of her parent's sacrifices and excellent work. 

Here?  The ONLY realistic answer is life in prison.

I'm not sad about that, I really don't care for idiotic zealots much.

Yes, there was a chance they'd have allowed her to stay alive and just make sure she didn't say anything since they knew not every kid would go in for spying. But she's happily made herself a criminal and a traitor now and gotten herself info on the operation. 

12 hours ago, Cardie said:

I doubt the show would actually do this but I can see the Centre intervening to place Henry in that school and get him access to the rich and elite, hoping to recruit him as an adult but keeping mum on their plans to the parents.

If they've been too dim to think about him before now I can't imagine them wasting money on his school thinking they could recruit him one day. Without his parents he's just a random kid no more or less likely to be recruited than anyone else. Less recruited than most, probably, because there's nothing in Henry that says he'd be open to treason or the USSR. He's not even a joiner in general.

 

12 hours ago, jjj said:

I don't think the Centre made any decision about Henry yet -- the plan was for Gen2 to get a good education and later infiltrate government. Paige accelerated the process by asking questions.  Not sure at what point the children were supposed to be brought into the Centre operations.  

No, the plan was for Paige to be told immediately and then they'd eventually recruit her. Paige didn't accelerate anything. Gabriel had already been sent back to the USA because her parents were dragging their feet and hadn't told her yet. They've never explained how not only did the Centre not have any interest in Henry, but the parents acted like they always knew they wouldn't have an interest in him. Even though he's obviously star spy material. 

12 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

They really cranked the Stan-i-meter straight to 12, huh? Seems like a bit too rushed, as we approach the endgame. I wish there had been a more gradual realization, or that they at least gave him a better lightbulb moment than suddenly realizing Phillip and Elizabeth's disappearances were really suspicious, especially given the very plausible explanation of Phillip's (backed by Henry's confirmation of work trouble).

 

Yeah, it didn't feel organic to me either. 

7 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

I never heard of any explanation.

The only guess I can offer is that if The Center's intelligence was good enough to learn that Henry visited neighbors' homes several times without permission, they might have concluded he was "damaged goods" and it would be best to avoid him. I know that I certainly would have come to that conclusion.

I was very surprised to learn that Henry turned out to be such a fine young man. But then I realized this was not "real life" and it was the writers who decided to have him behave like "damaged goods" but then grow up to be a fine young man without ever offering a word of explanation as to how that happened. It remains one of the many mysteries that I suspect will never be addressed by the show.

Henry was always a fine young man. What he did with the neighbors' house wasn't any sign of delinquency. His logic was perfectly innocent and childlike. He was desperate to play a video game that was sitting there untouched. The neighbors weren't there. He wasn't taking anything from them by playing it. The temptation was great and he knew where the key was so he did it. Then probably felt clever and powerful and liked having the forbidden house to himself. I'm not sure what would meant to be explained about how that kid grew up into a good person. He always was one. 

I think, btw, that story was even echoed when Oleg talked about there being one pinball machine in Gorky Park the kids all stood on line to play. 

6 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I don't know, I think he's become "an orphan with living parents", meaning they are physically alive, but Henry doesn't really expect help or emotional support from them. If they are lucky enough to have another Thanksgiving together, Henry will be mentally prepared for being ditched and he'll tell himself it doesn't matter. He's making plans for the summer as an orphan would do: no need to see his parents on holidays, no need to ask them for some advice. Of course, some people may think this is an admirable trait, but I think it shows that he has come to the conclusion that he doesn't need his family because he can't afford the luxury of needing something so unrealiable. He isn't a mess because he's a good, smart boy and he doesn't really have a bad relationship with them, just a weak one. But I do see a consequence of having P + E as a parents with all their absences, lies and silences. Paige chose to embrace them because it was the only way to find the real Philip and the real Elizabeth and Henry chose to run away (physically and emotionally).

I think this is an exaggeration. Henry has never had any trouble asking his parents for stuff--his parents are the ones who have been paying for his boarding school up until now. He seems to talk to his dad regularly and expects his father to be interested in him. His dad took the day off work to spend with him while he was home. He flies or drives all the way to New Hampshire to watch Henry play hockey. That's not an orphan, it's just a kid at boarding school. He's planning a summer away because he has a specific problem that can be solved by working at this place and he's at least 16 years old, old enough to have that kind of job. In fact I believe he said his friend from boarding school works there every summer already. 

He sees his father genuinely upset that he's created this problem for him so it seems unfair to say Henry just doesn't expect anything from him because Philip's already orphaned him. As Henry himself said in this episode, he sees his father making an effort even if work often takes precedence. I think honestly that often when he does something himself instead of asking his parents it's not a sign that he doesn't think they'll give him something but just a preference for doing things that way. Like with the boarding school. He was smart to think that it was better to present his parents having already done the legwork than just ask them to go to boarding school like it was a whim. He still asked them for it, still expected them to take his request seriously, still expected them to respect his feelings on the matter. And they came through for him. Even Philip who didn't like the idea.

I don't think Henry's independence is just some sad coping mechanism for his parents having chaotic work lives or being a latchkey kid. For all his understandable disappointment when he's let down he seems exactly like his parents in this way. He's got a busy life and stuff to do and sometimes isn't available for his parents, but that doesn't mean he doesn't care about them. Sure maybe he learned that from his parents, but that's not a bad thing to be. If it is then Henry's bad the same way. 

But I don't think he is bad. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but at this point Henry seems pretty mature and insightful to me (if not perfectly so, of course). Yes he's annoyed at his parents letting him down and he might try to be different with his own kids (just as Philip is trying to give Henry the stuff he lacked). But he also seems to see the difference between his mother's unhealthy emotional withdrawal and his father trying and being under a lot of stress. Maybe there's other interpretations for his last line about having to be there for your family but to me it seems like he's actually being just like his dad in that scene--he's choosing work over family by going away for the summer because his school is important but that doesn't mean he's prioritizing work/money over family entirely.

This is also I think reflected in the phone call at the end. Some interpret Henry as blowing Philip off when he calls as a sort of punishment but he could just as easily just be back at school now and caught up in something else. I honestly think that if both his parents were as neglectful as they're described Henry would be far less likely to blow them off. When Philip calls Henry knows (or thinks he knows, sadly) he can blow him off because he'll call back. (Just as Philip in an earlier scene gets Henry off the phone to talk spy stuff and Henry just tells him when not to call him back.) They'll talk eventually. When Elizabeth calls he sits down to listen because he knows he's not going to get another chance.

Quote

The difference is that with regular immigrant families, there is usually a supportive group of other immigrant families from the same location. They may have different values from regular Americans but a lot of social contacts within their own community. E&P lived a very isolated life, especially when the children were young and without close friends, so they did not give their children any role model for social intimacy of any kind. 

I don't see how this is such a big deal that it's somehow making either kid socially stunted, especially since one of them seems particularly socially adept. They were introduced as an affectionate family with two kids. 

There are kids with single mothers who move a lot without being unable to make friends. Or immigrants who don't have a big immigrant community around them. Or families who are the only one of their race in a neighborhood. The Jennings themselves seem like an obvious model of social intimacy and then they even had exactly what you're describing when the Beemans moved in. Sure everything about the parents is going to be something the kids learn from but I think this kind of stuff is more subtle.

6 minutes ago, KarenX said:

But! We know she was lying/covering up and why. Artist knew she was lying and covering up, too, and if she hadn't been in so much pain and so short of time she might have pursued the lie. Lucky for Elizabeth she moved on.

I don't think she thought she was covering up where she copied the picture from. I think she just assumed she was emotionally unable to reveal what it meant to her, which was true. The artist might not have even thought about where she found it. As she said, the important thing was why the image spoke to her.

[Dev F]

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

No, the plan was for Paige to be told immediately and then they'd eventually recruit her. Paige didn't accelerate anything. Gabriel had already been sent back to the USA because her parents were dragging their feet and hadn't told her yet.

I'd say it's more that they sent Gabriel back in response to Philip threatening the rezident: "If our organization ever gets anywhere near our daughter without our permission, my wife and I are finished." People tend to overlook the fact that Gabriel's arrival marked a significant change in the Centre's attitude regarding Paige. It goes from stern soldier Claudia insisting that Paige be told "soon" about her parents' secret life, to old pal Gabriel gently prodding them to "start laying the groundwork." And in response P&E are very clear that "it's gonna take time."

I think that's all consistent with the Centre staying the fuck away from Henry until P&E are satisfied that things have worked out with Paige. And since it seems like what finally settles the Paige matter is Elizabeth and Philip agreeing that she goes in and Henry stays out, that means Henry never becomes a target.

Edited May 11, 2018 by Dev F

[ahpny]

Quote

I wouldn't think running a travel agency is one of those nights and weekends type jobs like being an emergency room doctor or a police officer.

And neither does Stan. I thought Philip missed an opportunity to sell the con to Stan in a much better way. He could have built upon the truth – business failing – but embellished it in a way that would made the busted Thanksgiving plans and stress seem more believable: He could have said in order to try and save his failing business, he borrowed money from some people he probably shouldn’t have, and now he’s in a very tight spot and can’t talk about it further b/c Stan’s FBI.

[shura]

7 hours ago, meira.hand said:

The difference is that with regular immigrant families, there is usually a supportive group of other immigrant families from the same location. They may have different values from regular Americans but a lot of social contacts within their own community. E&P lived a very isolated life, especially when the children were young and without close friends, so they did not give their children any role model for social intimacy of any kind. I assume they realized getting too close to other people may present real danger and the only reason Stan got close was because he basically forced himself upon them and his being an FBI agent meant they had to be careful and go with it. In a way he may have been what stirred Henry onto a more healthy emotional and social path.

Do we really know that they lived a particularly reclusive life and had no normal interactions with friends and neighbors? They showed up at the Beemans' door with their housewarming casserole like they'd done it before, in a perfectly neighborly way. And that was before they knew Stan was FBI, so they had no reason to pretend extra hard to befriend him.

1 hour ago, Cardie said:

But there are likely no Marilyn fingerprints on file and because the van would be full of prints, it would be difficult to pinpoint which ones belonged to the handless corpse in the garage.

Plus, for all we know, Elizabeth could have wiped the van down while Philip was driving it to the garage.

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I'd say it's more that they sent Gabriel back in response to Philip threatening the rezident: "If our organization ever gets anywhere near our daughter without our permission, my wife and I are finished." People tend to overlook the fact that Gabriel's arrival marked a significant change in the Centre's attitude regarding Paige. It goes from stern soldier Claudia insisting that Paige be told "soon" about her parents' secret life, to old pal Gabriel gently prodding them to "start laying the groundwork." And in response P&E are very clear that "it's gonna take time."

 

But Gabriel showed up 4 months after Philip talked to the Rezident so his appearance makes far more sense as a reaction to the fact that they haven't acted yet than backing off. The backing off part was before that when they let them alone for 4 months, during which time Elizabeth had already started working on Paige. But she wasn't actually pulling the trigger so they sent Gabriel. The change was in the opposite direction. Four months of no pushing at all, then Gabriel showed up to put on the pressure.

49 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I think that's all consistent with the Centre staying the fuck away from Henry until P&E are satisfied that things have worked out with Paige. And since it seems like what finally settles the Paige matter is Elizabeth and Philip agreeing that she goes in and Henry stays out, that means Henry never becomes a target.

They've never said anything explicit about any deal that Henry's kept out of spying that I remember. Why would Philip get to just decide that one of their kids was off limits? That's the Centre's decision. They got exactly what they wanted with Paige despite Philip's objections and it's already worked out with Paige committing treason. Why would the Centre not want to push ahead? And if they did why wouldn't Elizabeth go along? She's already brought Philip back in after telling him to retire.

Also none of this explains why neither Philip or Elizabeth has ever discussed whether Henry would be brought on board. They have explicit conversations about Paige's training. Nothing about Elizabeth's isolation from Henry has ever been linked to Philip laying down some law about it. Plus even before Paige was onboard they never said a single thing to each other about the possibility of Henry. Even when he wanted to go away to school it didn't come up. Not a single person has ever even suggested the possibility of Henry being recruited. Not Claudia, Gabriel, Philip, Elizabeth or Paige.

32 minutes ago, ahpny said:

And neither does Stan. I thought Philip missed an opportunity to sell the con to Stan in a much better way. He could have built upon the truth – business failing – but embellished it in a way that would made the busted Thanksgiving plans and stress seem more believable: He could have said in order to try and save his failing business, he borrowed money from some people he probably shouldn’t have, and now he’s in a very tight spot and can’t talk about it further b/c Stan’s FBI.

That would get Stan more involved. FBI agents don't just look the other way when someone says they're doing something illegal and dangerous. Plus Stan knows the sudden trips aren't just happening now, as he discussed with Henry. 

29 minutes ago, shura said:

Do we really know that they lived a particularly reclusive life and had no normal interactions with friends and neighbors? They showed up at the Beemans' door with their housewarming casserole like they'd done it before, in a perfectly neighborly way. And that was before they knew Stan was FBI, so they had no reason to pretend extra hard to befriend him.

Nope, as you say, they're normal. They know their neighbors. When the show started both kids thought they were like anybody else on the block. They're not the weird family on the block.

Edited May 11, 2018 by sistermagpie

[benteen]

49 minutes ago, ahpny said:

And neither does Stan. I thought Philip missed an opportunity to sell the con to Stan in a much better way. He could have built upon the truth – business failing – but embellished it in a way that would made the busted Thanksgiving plans and stress seem more believable: He could have said in order to try and save his failing business, he borrowed money from some people he probably shouldn’t have, and now he’s in a very tight spot and can’t talk about it further b/c Stan’s FBI.

I think his mistake was not personalizing it more.  He should have mentioned about Henry's tuition and have told him the whole thing was putting a strain on his marriage with Elizabeth.  Stan knows they've had marriage problems before and as pointed out earlier, Stan himself has had marriage problems.  Philip really didn't put up the effort that he should have to sell the story, which indicates that like Elizabeth, he's slipping as a spy or he just doesn't have the energy anymore to sell these stories.

Edited May 11, 2018 by benteen

[Anela]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Not trying to pick your comment apart, but it cracks me up that in the U.S. any young white girl is always “pretty” whether she is or not. Double points if average looking young white girl has blonde hair. The word means almost nothing now.  IMHO, Paige is quite average in all respects including appearance. And Holly Taylor is a piss poor actress period. As has been pointed out, an actress with a moderate skill level could compensate for poor character development. She cannot.

I think she's pretty. I'm glad the word isn't saved for supermodels.