S05.E02: Red Queen

[MostlyC]

Quote

Octavia must take guidance from an unlikely ally when the future of the bunker and all those inside it are jeopardized.

[Guest]

Seems like they regressed Octavia in the beginning back to sweet, innocent girl who hid under the floor trying to rule Wankru so they could try to sell that Jaha inspired her to make death the enemy by the end.  It didn't seem like that much of a change to her having that first gladiator battle.

I still find Octavia being the best fighter who can take on four grounders at once kind of preposterous.

Was surprised that they heard Clarke trying to dig them out.

[Fireball]

28 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I still find Octavia being the best fighter who can take on four grounders at once kind of preposterous.

I also find it preposterous. I tend to roll my eyes whenever Octavia starts fighting.

[owenthurman]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I still find Octavia being the best fighter who can take on four grounders at once kind of preposterous.

 

2 hours ago, Fireball said:

I also find it preposterous. I tend to roll my eyes whenever Octavia starts fighting.

Thirded. It really hurts the show, for me.

[slf]

What Jaha said about Aurora Blake was true as hell. I've been waiting for someone to address that for years.

[ottoDbusdriver]

8 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Was surprised that they heard Clarke trying to dig them out.

Unless Clarke developed Hulk-like strength, there's no way she would have been heard in the bunker through so many feet of rubble.
 

Kara Cooper: "These deaths are on you too"
Why blame a long-dead Irish rock band for deaths in the bunker ?

Umm, I don't get all the open fires -- it's an enclosed underground building with limited oxygen-generating capacity from the farm, so why are there open fires everywhere ?

Just call him Thelonious 'Just a scratch' Jaha.  Who knew Jaha was a fan of Monty Python ? And he's dead.

Octavia: "You are Wonkru or you are the enemy.  Choose."
Well, that thinned the numbers somewhat.

I don't seem to recall any previous Commanders wearing a gear on their foreheads.

Oh FFS !! -- Hunger game rules.   Really show, really ??
After 6 years there should only be a few dozen people left.

Apparently there was a sale on fencing at the bunker Home Depot in the intervening 6 years.

So what happened to that kid that Jaha was caring for ?  Was he one of the first ones into the ThunderDome or whatever the hell they are calling it ?
Or was he that novitiate outside the ring ?  Novitiate, really ?  I somehow doubt grounder speak would even know the word 'novitiate' after a 100 years of feral survival after Praimfaya 1.0. (or would that be Praimfaya O.G. ?)

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I don't seem to recall any previous Commanders wearing a gear on their foreheads.

This was controversial (mostly around Tumblr) because that's actually a bindi, and that's cultural appropriation, etc.

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I have to agree on Octavia's fighting skills. Someone who lived under the floor for most of her life and only learned to fight a few years ago should not be near as good as people that have been fighting for their entire lives. Survival fighters are usually better than ones that just train in gym as well. I can buy her being better than some, but not everyone. 

Unless Clarke was ramming the rubble with her truck, they should not have been able to hear her. I did like that they all assumed it was Clarke because Wanheda never dies. 

I really want everyone to be reunited soon. 

[UNOSEZ]

Solid episode... Sad to see jaha go... Glad we got one last shout out to wells... Who I'm still salty they killed off.. Seems that Gaia and Kara are now close to octavia and mama Indra isn't too happy with how daughter number two is handling things seemingly with the blessings of daughter number one... I hope they fill in some more blanks... That said I'm ready for the season to start moving fwd I don't need to any more catching up... Let's let the bunker ppl out... Also I hope that lil snippet of Ethan doesn't mean he's a baby psycho growing up presumably under Gaia and Octavia. 

 

And how long till he starts a romance with clarke's "daughter " maddie... 

Casting agents couldn't have found one minority for one of those parts?  

[roctavia]

I wanna know what crime Kane committed to earn his place in the thunderdome.... did he steal medicine for Abby? did we see Abby in the flashfoward? Her brain still wasn't right. 

Octavia must have some latent fighting skills that make her so talented at killing grounders.... maybe living in the floor of the ark all that time gave her some special mutant abilities.  p

 

I'm also wondering how they knew the bunker food/farm growth would last exactly 5 years and not a minute more... and how long are they expecting to live down there? Forever? Or do they assume someone will eventually dig them out if there are survivors up top? I feel like there would be other ways to stretch the food supply a little without going to half rations from the start.... I mean, I know it's an unknown of how long they will be stuck there... but way to freak people out from the beginning.

[Bobcatkitten]

I will say this about Octavia's fight scenes - they are well choreographed and fun to watch. 

[Lady Calypso]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Yeah, I have to agree on Octavia's fighting skills. Someone who lived under the floor for most of her life and only learned to fight a few years ago should not be near as good as people that have been fighting for their entire lives. Survival fighters are usually better than ones that just train in gym as well. I can buy her being better than some, but not everyone. 

Don't forget that the big fight scene with Octavia and the "traitors" of Wonkru was 46'ish days after Praimfaya, and since the first four seasons essentially happened in the space of just under a year (I think someone calculated it under a year), Octavia's only been a fighter for a year of her life. 

But yeah, fighting all those people with ease was not really realistic. The fight scene was good in itself, but it's just headscratching.

As for the episode, I'll admit that I got bored halfway through and stopped paying full attention. The people in the bunker, sans Kane, interest me in the least. Jaha is still the worst. I'm sorry, but no amount of scenes with the kid could have made me like him after almost a full series of his bullshit. No, show, I haven't forgotten his part in season 3, and he wasn't any better in season 4. I know most of these people are awful, but Jaha was always on another level. So, good riddance. I was still hoping for Kane to have snapped and been the one to kill him. 

Yeah, no way could they have heard Clarke pounding away at the thousands of pounds of concrete and other material on top of the bunker. Like Jaha said, they'd likely not be able to dig out of the bunker in their lifetime. 

[Sakura12]

I forgot about Jaha dying, shows how much I cared. I haven't liked him from the beginning (mostly having to do with the actor).

Octavia being able to beat everyone without breaking much of sweat was unrealistic. I know some hate Clarke, but at least we didn't see her winning fights with people that should have years of experience over her. She would blow up mountains, poison or shoot people to kill them. 

[Lilac2000]

Some of the scenes are so dark...like I literally can't tell who is who. At the end I could tell it was Octavia of course...and Ethan since he was called by name. Did Gaia have short blonde hair? I think I saw Indra in the shadows. Someone said Kara was there? Like allied with Octavia? And of course I saw Kane. 

[CooperTV]

26 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I know some hate Clarke, but at least we didn't see her winning fights with people that should have years of experience over her.

Clarke killed a jaguar or whatever by jumping on them and killing it with a knife. There's literally nothing realistic on this show.

[Paloma]

33 minutes ago, Lilac2000 said:

Did Gaia have short blonde hair?

Yes, that was Gaia. It's nice that they thought to stock the nuclear bunker with hair coloring (and presumably makeup).

 

2 hours ago, roctavia said:

I feel like there would be other ways to stretch the food supply a little without going to half rations from the start.... I mean, I know it's an unknown of how long they will be stuck there... but way to freak people out from the beginning.

Agree, the bunker population was in serious need of calm organizational and leadership skills--instead they get a teenager who thinks gladiator competitions are a good way to dispense justice. And I get that the rebellion leaders had to be punished, but unless there were multiple people who had hydroponic farming skills, they should have found a way to punish them while keeping them alive to deal with the food supply problem. Of course, the rebels may not have cooperated, but going right to "let's murder the engineer who runs the farm" (or whatever her exact job was) seemed foolish. 

 

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I hope that lil snippet of Ethan doesn't mean he's a baby psycho growing up presumably under Gaia and Octavia. 

 

And how long till he starts a romance with clarke's "daughter " maddie... 

I really, really don't care about Ethan and hope they don't pursue a storyline with him.

[CooperTV]

14 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I really, really don't care about Ethan and hope they don't pursue a storyline with him.

How dare! Ethan is clearly this season's Riley Lastname, and you can't have a show without this essential character!11

[piequinn35]

So Kara and Dr. Jackson's boyfriend Nathan became the right and left hand of Octavia? or they are just her bodyguards?

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, piequinn35 said:

So Kara and Dr. Jackson's boyfriend Nathan became the right and left hand of Octavia? or they are just her bodyguards?

Could be both... Miller is like his dad a soldier thru and thru.. And after Kara killed all the ppl in the first gladiator circle I guess everything was cool and she fell in line behind the Red queen.. Octavia also has religious zealot of a "sister" in Gaia close by so seems like she has her advisors and mommy Indra wasn't one of them... I hope they explain how that went down as the two of them(3 or maybe 4 now with Gaia and Ethan)  was the only real relationship I cared about 

[jane1978]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Don't forget that the big fight scene with Octavia and the "traitors" of Wonkru was 46'ish days after Praimfaya, and since the first four seasons essentially happened in the space of just under a year (I think someone calculated it under a year), Octavia's only been a fighter for a year of her life. 

Well, Octavia is young and athletic and she was trained by Indra, one of the best figther around. Plus it was a narrow corridor so they really couldn´t attack her all at once and in one on one fights she just had to be quick enough to evade the strikes and then attack. Those were not the elite fighters like during the conclave, just some ordinary pissed guys. Seems most of the ordinary grounders just believe blunt force is everything and don´t think much about defence or tactics. She´s been lucky nobody managed to sneak behind her, but I don´t think her winning is completely impossible. 

[ketose]

It would have made a little more sense if it was shown as Octavia challenging each Grounder with you are wonkru or yadda yadda instead of just letting any group of them attack her.

Jaha's dead. I think it may be time for me to stop watching.

[ottoDbusdriver]

13 hours ago, CooperTV said:

This was controversial (mostly around Tumblr) because that's actually a bindi, and that's cultural appropriation, etc.

I had completely forgotten about that.

[CooperTV]

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Miller dating the doctor came as a surprise. What happened to his other boyfriend? He was so so redundant, I forgot. Since they gave him a more prominent character as a boyfriend now, one can hope for a more prominent storyline for him? 

Miller and Jackson became a thing in the last couple episodes of season 4, I think. I don't think it was anything obvious but they did spent some time together and flirted mildly.

IDK, Miller and Jackson were always tertiary characters, and Miller barely has any storylines. Which is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

[AudienceofOne]

Yawn.

[slf]

12 hours ago, jane1978 said:

Well, Octavia is young and athletic and she was trained by Indra, one of the best figther around. Plus it was a narrow corridor so they really couldn´t attack her all at once and in one on one fights she just had to be quick enough to evade the strikes and then attack. Those were not the elite fighters like during the conclave, just some ordinary pissed guys. Seems most of the ordinary grounders just believe blunt force is everything and don´t think much about defence or tactics. She´s been lucky nobody managed to sneak behind her, but I don´t think her winning is completely impossible. 

She may be young but that's about it. She lived under a floor eating very little food for the first sixteen years of her life. Grounders, on the other hand, have been trained from childhood and generally had better access to vegetables and protein. There's just no way her muscles, reflexes, agility, and instincts are on par with most Grounder warriors. It doesn't matter that Indra trained her for a few weeks.

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, AudienceofOne said:

Yawn.

Yep. My expectations for this episode:

vs Reality:

[AudienceofOne]

I mean, how many times can they tell exactly the same story? We get it. The human story is the brutal story of inadequate resources, territorial battles and brutal tribalism. But it's also a story of people coming together to build things that are greater than the sum of their parts. And that's where I thought this show was eventually going. Because unless they find something new to say about society, I'm just not that interested. I'd almost be relieved if this didn't get a season 6 because then I could quit.

[slf]

15 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Yep. My expectations for this episode:

vs Reality:

No shit. I'd heard rumors there was going to be cannibalism so I was excited for this ep even tho Octavia is one of my least favorite characters. Imagine my disappointment.

[Isazouzi]

"This isn't the Ark, and this isn't the ground. But in Rome..." OK, so this is Rome. And Grounders be like "where?"

I was immensely bored. But Jaha is finally dead, that's a good thing.

I agree with whoever said it's way too dark. I know they're in a bunker, but still. If I don't watch at night, I can barely see anything on my screen.

Octavia's fight, while nicely choreographed, was still ridiculous. At one point, there were 2 grounders behind her who could have stabbed her in the back in an instant if they wanted to.

So anyway, I wonder how many people are left in the bunker. It's 6 years after praimfaya. How are they going to get out? Who's going to clear out the rubble above their head? Clarke and the prisoners?

[thuganomics85]

Hey, Kyra Zagorsky!  Glad to see appearing in more things now.  Totally knew Kara was trouble the first time she appeared, but judging from that final shot, it seems like she has fallen in line now.  Even has become a bodyguard for Octavia?!

Pretty freaking obvious that this was a send-off for Jaha, since everyone seem to be suddenly forgetting about all the shit has done in the past seasons, and treating him like he was some misunderstood, but honorable man.  He probably should have been killed off seasons ago and the over-the-top noble sacrifice was a bit much, but whatever works, I guess.

Octavia being the most badass fighter on the planet is unrealistic, but that really isn't anything new for the show.  At least the fight scenes are well choreographed.  And I do think Marie Avgeropoulous has improved a lot as an actress compared to when she first started.

Glad Niylah is still around, although I wonder how long Jessica Harmon can pull double duty with this and iZombie.  And I still want to see her act opposite of her brother, Richard.

So, Octavia's Thunderdome is basically a way to handle criminal disputes.  Along with the added bonus of decreasing the population, I imagine.  And, twist! Kane is now fighting in the arena!  I wonder what he did to earn it.

Looking forward to seeing the Space crew against next week.

[Solace247]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Pretty freaking obvious that this was a send-off for Jaha, since everyone seem to be suddenly forgetting about all the shit has done in the past seasons, and treating him like he was some misunderstood, but honorable man.  He probably should have been killed off seasons ago and the over-the-top noble sacrifice was a bit much, but whatever works, I guess.

Has it made the show more palatable? I'm waiting for the first half of the season to air, so I can read everyone's comments to see if it's worth watching. Didn't finish the final few last season as I could see where it was going and didn't find it very compelling. Honestly, I'd probably need a few more deaths before I'd be willing to catch up--there are too many people that I couldn't care less about.

[Paloma]

On 5/4/2018 at 11:53 AM, Isazouzi said:

So anyway, I wonder how many people are left in the bunker. It's 6 years after praimfaya. How are they going to get out? Who's going to clear out the rubble above their head? Clarke and the prisoners?

How they are going to get out is the biggest question for me, though I'm sure the answer will be unrealistic. Even if Clarke and the prisoners could dig them out, what would stop the prisoners from just murdering each person as they climb out, so that competition for resources is minimized? 

[paulvdb]

2 hours ago, Paloma said:

Even if Clarke and the prisoners could dig them out, what would stop the prisoners from just murdering each person as they climb out, so that competition for resources is minimized? 

Octavia will be the first to climb out and she is the best fighter on the planet so she kills them all. Or Clarke will think of some clever way to kill them all after they dig out the entrance to the bunker.

[SourK]

I just caught up on the first two episodes today, and I'm surprised by how happy I am to have a new season. It's dumb sometimes, but I like it.

I was surprised by how much effort they made to check in with a bunch of secondary and tertiary characters (some of whom I had completely forgotten about), but it reminded me that one of the things I like about this show is how the cast is stuffed with women and they all get to have different personalities and goals.

On 5/1/2018 at 10:31 PM, ParadoxLost said:

Seems like they regressed Octavia in the beginning back to sweet, innocent girl who hid under the floor trying to rule Wankru...

Wait, I wasn't paying attention. Is their name seriously spelled as Wankru?

On 5/2/2018 at 11:41 AM, roctavia said:

I'm also wondering how they knew the bunker food/farm growth would last exactly 5 years and not a minute more... and how long are they expecting to live down there? Forever? Or do they assume someone will eventually dig them out if there are survivors up top? I feel like there would be other ways to stretch the food supply a little without going to half rations from the start.... I mean, I know it's an unknown of how long they will be stuck there... but way to freak people out from the beginning.

Yeah, the response to the food situation seemed puzzling for a few reasons. One because, as you say, it seems like they reacted too quickly, and it seems like stretching out the rations will not solve the actual problem, which is needing to leave the bunker. Also, because it sounds like the problem is that the plants they're farming won't be unuseable in five years, it's not clear to me that cutting back rations will help very much, unless they have a way to stockpile produce. Also, I'm not 100% sure I buy the idea that the plants will be unuseable.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, SourK said:

Wait, I wasn't paying attention. Is their name seriously spelled as Wankru?

Yeah, the response to the food situation seemed puzzling for a few reasons. One because, as you say, it seems like they reacted too quickly, and it seems like stretching out the rations will not solve the actual problem, which is needing to leave the bunker. Also, because it sounds like the problem is that the plants they're farming won't be unuseable in five years, it's not clear to me that cutting back rations will help very much, unless they have a way to stockpile produce. Also, I'm not 100% sure I buy the idea that the plants will be unuseable.

I seem to be wrong on the spelling.  Its Wonkru.

The response to the food situation was all Octavia.  She made the half rations decision over Kane and Abby's objections.  Kane told her that it wasn't a decision for today.  Octavia decided to assert her leadership in a knee jerk reaction to wanting to avoid  facing the possibility on a future solution /discussion that might include culling the population again.

This entire episode is how Octavia got from everyone lives to thunderdome being a variation of floating on the Ark.

[hertolo]

Catching up, that was just the worst possible way to resolve that situation. Kinda like the opposite of "the Martian" in that it is not about what human ingenuity can achieve out of restricted resources and (here) cooperation, but about how you can destroy a functioning safety instrument  as quickly as possible. And I just don't like that story. I would be interested in one about re-construction, about how a transparent democracy was established, about how an intelligent leader made the clans work together by splitting them up, making them learn from each other and building one society. First step, taking away all the weapons. But of course this isn't that show. And that is okay, but in this case, I want to get back to the characters that interest me most which apart from Miller and Jackson is literally no one in there (yeah, what happened to the first boyfriend? Actor unavailable? a death I missed last season?).

Edited May 9, 2018 by hertolo

[piequinn35]

^Bryan was probably part of the Bunker Culling.

[AudienceofOne]

12 minutes ago, hertolo said:

Catching up, that was just the worst possible way to resolve that situation. Kinda like the opposite of "the Martian" in that it is not about what human ingenuity can achieve out of restricted resources and (here) cooperation, but about how you can destroy a functioning safety instrument  as quickly as possible. And I just don't like that story.

This is my problem. I thought this show had something interesting to say in the first few seasons but now it's making the same tired old points over and over again and it's doing in ways that are extremely silly. If you need two global annihilations to make your point about society, then your point about society is pretty shallow.