S06.E20: Shifting Allegiances

[paulvdb]

The one thing I liked was Oliver/Anatoly, especially Anatoly telling Oliver that he was stupid for going back to basics and doing it all on his own.

[Trisha]

2 hours ago, paulvdb said:

The one thing I liked was Oliver/Anatoly, especially Anatoly telling Oliver that he was stupid for going back to basics and doing it all on his own.

Me too. Their scenes saved the ep for me.

I really, really like this take from the AVClub review on what Oliver’s “back to basics” plan may really mean. It would be great if this is what the writers are going for, but it’s probably giving them much too much credit. https://tv.avclub.com/arrow-hides-one-decent-story-underneath-a-pile-of-well-1825588269

Quote

I’ll be curious to know how many of you guessed that Oliver was allowing himself to be captured. (I did.) But whether or not you saw that particular “twist” coming, the idea that Oliver is able to make his first dent in Diaz’s organization through what he knows about people — about Diaz and Anatoly both — is an interesting one. It’s the first instance in which the “back to basics” idea appeals. What if Oliver’s return to “basics” isn’t about finding a guy, killing that guy, and letting countless repetitions of “You have failed this city” fly? What if it’s less about relying on trick arrows and super-hacking and team assaults, and more about dealing with one person at a time?

[UNOSEZ]

I still don't see why ppl are so upset with Diggle.  The team imploded.  It was shown he was torn about some of the decisions OTA was making in handling the NTA / Laurel situations... He was upset that Oliver (once again)  witheld info(lied)  when it came to him taking over... The entire situation was way over the top he felt he had a part to play in it getting so far.. He felt guilty because I think he believes if he had stepped up things coulda gone down differently and as a result everyone has suffered Most importantly the city so he's trying something different... I don't see a personality transplant I see something that may have been building for a while...  I've read that it's bad form for Diggle to want to lead this team or his own team.. And I'm not sure why ppl feel that way.. He's been loyal for years had( and still has)  Ollie's back if needed

 

As for the noobs I thought they did ok... They are noobs  they still need teaching...

And tho I love him Anatoly has tried to kill Oliver.. (I feel maybe more than once) and he is/was the leader of a ruthless crime syndicate and he doesn't bring about the same levels of hate and cries of hypocrisy as the Noobs who for the most part have been annoying petty and in one episode aggressive... Is it just anatoly's charm? 

[way2interested]

9 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I still don't see why ppl are so upset with Diggle.

To me it's less about Diggle exactly and just the plot of him separating from Oliver just to push this compartmentalizing/Oliver has to be alone idea

9 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

It was shown he was torn about some of the decisions OTA was making in handling the NTA / Laurel situations

The entire situation was way over the top he felt he had a part to play in it getting so far.. He felt guilty because I think he believes if he had stepped up things coulda gone down differently and as a result everyone has suffered

Even so (and I can buy that OTA are the bigger people here), the newbies had a hand in the situations too, and only one of the parties has apologized while the other is just moving on after getting mad at Oliver for specifically wanting to do that months ago. I would be fine/better with OTA apologizing if it came with newbies introspection as well.

9 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

he is/was the leader of a ruthless crime syndicate and he doesn't bring about the same levels of hate and cries of hypocrisy as the Noobs who for the most part have been annoying petty and in one episode aggressive... Is it just anatoly's charm? 

I think it's that people aren't necessarily comparing Anatoly to the newbies (those are apples to oranges, the newbies are supposed to be heroes and they are letting their aggression and pettiness come to the forefront while Anatoly has always been in the crime syndicate and has always been morally grey but half the time we've known him, and in-canon way more years than not, was on Oliver's side),  but rather Anatoly and Black Siren, both characters who have villainous set-ups but one has better set up to be "redeemed" mostly from background, reasoning, and emotions (and yep, charm) than the other.

Edited April 27, 2018 by way2interested

[tv echo]

This episode was unpleasant to watch. My usual enjoyment over seeing Oliver and Anatoly interact was overshadowed by my disgust at NTA and my eyerolling at Black Siren's fear of Diaz(!). This episode made it clear to me that the show is just doubling down on making NTA the "wronged victims" in their feud with OTA. This season might as well be called the Season of Hypocrisy. The Arrow showrunners and writers have thrown logic, character consistency and continuity completely out the window this season...

Diggle apologizes to NTA?!?!  And the newbies respond by standing there silently like smug hypocrites.

Rene: "You probably want a thank-you or something, huh?" 
Diggle: "What I want is to apologize, Rene. My feelings on how you guys conducted yourselves aside (sighs), things got really out of hand. And I'm sorry for the part that I played in it." 
Curtis: (*crickets*)
Dinah: (*crickets*)
Rene: "Thanks, Hoss. Let's get back to work."

Now Oliver, Felicity and Diggle have all apologized to the newbies for their parts in the feud, but the newbies have never apologized to OTA. Yet what did OTA do? They put secret surveillance on the newbies after receiving solid intel that one of them had betrayed Oliver.  What did NTA do? Rene betrayed Oliver to the FBI. He also attacked Oliver with an axe and recklessly shot at BS, Felicity, Thea and Quentin. Dinah deceived Oliver and the team in her dealings with Vince the Vigilante. Curtis hacked into Diggle's chip and caused Diggle considerable pain. (He also injected tracking nanites into Felicity's pancakes last season without her knowledge.) So where are their apologies?

Rene: "So Oliver finally drove them all away. I can't say I'm surprised or that I care." STFU, Rene!
Rene: "Taking down Diaz was always gonna come down to the three of us." STFU, Rene!

The hypocrisy extends to Black Siren. In this episode, she tells Quentin that Diaz is a "monster." So says the woman who, among other things, killed an innocent girl by sonic screaming into her ear and then wore the dead girl's shoes (6x04), broke the neck of an injured security guard who pleaded for his life because he had two young daughters (6x04) and threw a killing dagger into another building guard despite Cayden James' directive not to kill (6x07). Not to mention her murder of Vince, because she was 'forced' to by Cayden.

Maybe they're trying to show us that she's changed due to Quentin's influence. If so, it's poorly executed. More significantly, she should acknowledge that she too 'was' a monster, just as bad as Diaz (if not worse), instead of being so hypocritically horrified by Diaz's killing of his childhood bully.

She could kill Diaz with one sonic cry, and yet she claims that she's too terrified of Diaz to defy him. Huh?! How does that make any sense at all? 

Black Siren: "I watched him burn a man alive over a childhood grudge. If I cross him, what is he gonna do to me?"

Quentin: "I know what you're capable of. You can bring walls smashing down. You really expect me to believe that you are scared of a thug like Diaz?"
Black Siren: "He is so much more than just a thug. And yes. Yes, I am scared. And you should be scared, too. So just sign the damn paper."

From SyFy review:

Quote

This show has been trying its hardest to make Diaz into an evil, inhuman force to be reckoned with — but after facing off with everyone from a near-immortal assassin to a magical killer with a lot more juice on paper, it’s still a tough sell to give the Dragon that much menace. Laurel is positively terrified of him, but this is a woman who has stood beside metahuman speedster baddies like Zoom and not really missed a beat. Yes, Diaz is clearly dead inside and capable of anything — but he’s still just a man. That’s not meant as a fault to the job Kirk Acevedo is doing with the character, just a symptom of where you end up after season upon season of oneupmanship. Sure, it’s a nice throwback to have a human villain who is simply ruthless to face off with Oliver, but it still can come off as a bit toothless when someone like Black Siren — who, as Quentin points out, could turn Diaz to goo with a whistle — is so terrified of the guy.

This episode does no favors for Quentin either. After initially showing some backbone and kicking Black Siren out of his house, he quickly changes his mind and goes groveling back to her again. At this point, I hope the season ends with Quentin leaving with Black Siren to return to her Earth - and never coming back.

While I'm glad that Anatoly seems to be having second thoughts about aligning with Diaz and kinda helped Oliver in this episode, I can't forget that he shot a good young cop in the back and killed him not that long ago.

I'm also glad that Oliver defeated Diaz in that fight (before Diaz cheated and used a knife), but the fight shouldn't even have lasted as long as it did. I still don't understand at all why Diaz is so scary. He seems no scarier than Tobias Church from last season. Even Adrian Chase driving away with blood on his face after killing the cops at the safe house was 10 times scarier than Diaz burning his childhood bully.

Felicity made a silent cameo at the very end of this episode. Watching smug Curtis do the hacking and other stuff that she normally does on Arrow was like a stab in the heart.

I did like when Oliver silently took out all of Anatoly's men in the living room, while Anatoly was in the kitchen. I always love it when the show remembers that Oliver is actually the biggest badass on Arrow.

Edited April 27, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

More recycled dialogue...

From this episode:
Oliver: "That assumed a fair fight."
Ricardo Diaz: "Potato-potatuh."

From 607:
Cayden James: "That was a literary epigram, Miss Lance, not a directive."
Black Siren: "Potato-potatuh."

Edited April 27, 2018 by tv echo

[UNOSEZ]

I agree @way2interested I wish the show would've had the newbs apologize for their part in this.. Me sticking up for them is me absolving them.. They've been idiots at points... Its just they are newbs... Rudderless newbs at the moment..  Its not like they haven't been trying to stop Diaz and fight crime... They just aren't as good at it yet. 

 

Yeah the whole Oliver has to be alone thing is a head scratcher 

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, UNOSEZ said:

I agree @way2interested I wish the show would've had the newbs apologize for their part in this.. Me sticking up for them is me absolving them.. They've been idiots at points... Its just they are newbs... Rudderless newbs at the moment..  Its not like they haven't been trying to stop Diaz and fight crime... They just aren't as good at it yet. 

 

Yeah the whole Oliver has to be alone thing is a head scratcher 

Honestly, if NTA would stop acting like smug pricks and actually apologized, then I might not be as angry at the plot. An apology can actually go a long way (I could have liked Rene in 6x09 before the ending because he actually acknowledged his wrongdoings before doing a complete 180 two scenes later). But with them acting so high and mighty, and then having OTA consistently apologize, they may be the bigger people, but it's frustrating to watch, as it seems like NTA have the power over OTA. Oliver finally stopped apologizing, which is why I haven't gotten angry with him mildly working with Dinah a few episodes back. 

There's also three episodes left in the season. I can't imagine them being able to wrap this plot up, at least not well. 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I can't imagine them being able to wrap this plot up, at least not well. 

Arrow's tagline. 

[doesntworkonwood]

I liked Oliver and Anatoly's scenes because they had what a lot of the other parts of the show has been missing, a sense of history. They felt earned, and I'm glad that Anatoly is stepping up. 

[way2interested]

27 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I wish the show would've had the newbs apologize for their part in this.. Me sticking up for them is me absolving them..

You can stick up for them and that's fine, but others who also wish the newbies would apologize aren't so keen on absolving them. That's why people are mad at the Diggle scene.

[statsgirl]

4 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I agree @way2interested I wish the show would've had the newbs apologize for their part in this.. Me sticking up for them is me absolving them.. They've been idiots at points... Its just they are newbs... Rudderless newbs at the moment..  Its not like they haven't been trying to stop Diaz and fight crime... They just aren't as good at it yet. 

 

Yeah the whole Oliver has to be alone thing is a head scratcher 

It's not quite true that they've been trying to fight Diaz all this time, after Vince died , they took about two months off to complain and do nothing while Oliver Diggle and Felicity worked around the clock to stop Diaz.

I might feel some sympathy about them being rudderless if every time they open their mouths they didn't trash talk Oliver and pronounce how vastly superior they are to him. In the old saying "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him.

I wonder if Oliver 'fired' Felicity because he planned to get caught by Diaz and thought she would never be okay with the plan.

Edited April 27, 2018 by statsgirl

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

This episode made it clear to me that the show is just doubling down on making NTA the "wronged victims" in their feud with OTA. This season might as well be called the Season of Hypocrisy.

More like their petulant, whiny, hypocritial, douchey feud with OLIVER. Because OLIVER betraaaayed them; OLIVER is a lousy leader, OLIVER!OLIVER!OLIVER! (insert Jan Brady's "Marcia!Marcia!Marcia!).

 

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, if NTA would stop acting like smug pricks and actually apologized, then I might not be as angry at the plot. An apology can actually go a long way (I could have liked Rene in 6x09 before the ending because he actually acknowledged his wrongdoings before doing a complete 180 two scenes later). But with them acting so high and mighty, and then having OTA consistently apologize, they may be the bigger people, but it's frustrating to watch, as it seems like NTA have the power over OTA. Oliver finally stopped apologizing, which is why I haven't gotten angry with him mildly working with Dinah a few episodes back. 

There's also three episodes left in the season. I can't imagine them being able to wrap this plot up, at least not well. 

These asshats wouldn't be where they are if NOT for Oliver and his training them. Where was Stutterbark until he met Oliver and learned who he was and what he did? Pouty was a cop, but she didn't know how to fight like Oliver does; and all Wild Dong was good at and only does is shoot guns. They can ALL DIE IN A FUCKING DUMPSTER FIRE.

[BunsenBurner]

In the scene where Oliver and Diaz are fighting Diaz says’”Maybe he won’t be so smart when he gets up.” On CC it’s says, “so smug” which makes more sense. 

IMO they had Oliver in a henley because Diaz’s arms are way too small compared to Oliver’s. They were trying everything they could to make it obvious that Diaz wasn’t a wimp. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by BunsenBurner

[KenyaJ]

6 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

In the scene where Oliver and Diaz are fighting Diaz says’”Maybe he won’t be so smart when he gets up.” On CC it’s says, “so smug” which makes more sense. 

So much more sense! I guess KA just flubbed the line?

[GHScorpiosRule]

My closed captioning decided it didn't want to work last night, so I didn't hear what marblemushmouth was saying, when I wasn't fast forwarding his ass.

[statsgirl]

nn

14 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Also liked Zoe being the anti-william who's 2 second appearance to whimper into Felicity 's shoulder made me angry.. She knew what was up wit her padre and she was down...   Don't mind Laurel being petrified of Diaz.. Comic books are filled with villains who have much stronger subordinates who could kill them if they wanted but don't...

The Zoe/William contrast strikes me as the contract between comic books and the more realistic writing for a TV show.

Both kids have lost their mothers to violence.   But Zoe's had it even worse, unlike William, she apparently doesn't have grandparents or someone else she can stay with and so she goes into foster care when Rene can't have her.  Rene has even just come out of the hospital and she's had to spend the time eating mac and cheese with Curtis or with her overnight babysitter.

William reacts realistically; he's angry at Oliver for having a hand in getting his mother killed, he has difficulty dealing with Oliver being a vigilante because it means that his sole remaining parent could die but he comes to terms with it and comes to rely on Felicity and Raisa, knowing that even if something happens to Oliver he won't be alone in his life.

Zoe reacts in a comic book manner: she encourages her father to continue risking his life as a (now illegal) vigilante even though he's been badly injured twice and if he dies she will be completely alone and adopted by someone if she's lucky. Or maybe she's just trying to get him killed.

Edited April 27, 2018 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I still don't see why ppl are so upset with Diggle.  The team imploded.  It was shown he was torn about some of the decisions OTA was making in handling the NTA / Laurel situations... He was upset that Oliver (once again)  witheld info(lied)  when it came to him taking over... The entire situation was way over the top he felt he had a part to play in it getting so far.. He felt guilty because I think he believes if he had stepped up things coulda gone down differently and as a result everyone has suffered Most importantly the city so he's trying something different... I don't see a personality transplant I see something that may have been building for a while...  I've read that it's bad form for Diggle to want to lead this team or his own team.. And I'm not sure why ppl feel that way.. He's been loyal for years had( and still has)  Ollie's back if needed

 

As for the noobs I thought they did ok... They are noobs  they still need teaching...

And tho I love him Anatoly has tried to kill Oliver.. (I feel maybe more than once) and he is/was the leader of a ruthless crime syndicate and he doesn't bring about the same levels of hate and cries of hypocrisy as the Noobs who for the most part have been annoying petty and in one episode aggressive... Is it just anatoly's charm? 

7

I find Anatoly to be more honest about who he is so my expectations are based on that and the show explained why he and Oliver are in a feud and from Anatoly's standpoint, I understand his beef.  I don't have to agree but it makes sense something I have not found to be the case with the newbs or their continued petulance.   And now Oliver makes a direct appeal to Anatoly and has made up for the problems he caused and Anatoly is back to showing the audience he is the man that we had known.  

He killed a cop recently just for arresting him which yes, proves he is a bad guy but it's not hard to believe that in Anatoly's code, the cop threatened his life and freedom so he took away the cop's.  Anatoly makes sense.  The newbs preening and praising themselves while playing the victim doesn't.  And yeah, they are supposed to be the heroes.  The code they are judged by requires them to be better than the bad guys, even the "honorable" ones.  

I also think even when Anatoly is at his worst, you can tell he wishes there was another way with Oliver.  He took the first chance he had to try to make things right while the newbs have been just making the rift worse and reveling in doing so.  They seemingly lack the compassion that a trained killer like Anatoly still manages to retain.  Which only underlines how terrible the newbs are as people.  

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

More recycled dialogue...

From this episode:
Oliver: "That assumed a fair fight."
Ricardo Diaz: "Potato-potatuh."

From 607:
Cayden James: "That was a literary epigram, Miss Lance, not a directive."
Black Siren: "Potato-potatuh."

I beg to differ.  It is not the same dialogue.  BS said "Po-tay-to/Pa-tah-tuh"  the last word no regular person has ever said on purpose while Diaz did "Po-tay-to/Pa-tah-to" the accepted alternative to Potato.  Clearly the person that wrote the line wanted to hear it said correctly.   ;)

[insomniadreams88]

What if Oliver had killed Diaz before he could have stabbed him during the fight? Then what? Did Diaz even plan for the possibility or did he figure that it would all work out, like in 619, when he could've been shot in the head?

Ugh, why is Diaz the Big Bad? 

[BkWurm1]

His only special skill seems to have been bribing or extorting public officials on mass really quickly.  But even that was never explained.  Was it a pyramid scheme?  Each one he bribed had to bribe/extort their own buddies or they didn't get the official Dragon tote bag. 

[bethy]

Testing something....

 

Okay. Good. This was the gif I needed for the episode to capture my incoherent rage at the n00bs and their smug horribleness and, frankly, the arrogance of the writers who seem to think they’re going to make me forget the stupidity and condescension of the writing for these characters by doubling-down on Rene’s insufferability. 

Now I have this image ready to go for future episodes, which I’m not sure I’ll be able to handle watching live again lest I keel over from a rage-induced heart attack or stroke.

Edited April 27, 2018 by bethy

[bijoux]

Speaking of compromised public officials, have Hill and Armand been reinstated? Also, why did Dick tear up the contract Quentin signed? That's blackmail material, you nincompoop. 

[statsgirl]

28 minutes ago, bijoux said:

That's blackmail material, you nincompoop. 

But don't you know that he's the Biggest Badest Big Bad of them all?

Or so they keep telling.

Edited April 27, 2018 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

48 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Speaking of compromised public officials, have Hill and Armand been reinstated? Also, why did Dick tear up the contract Quentin signed? That's blackmail material, you nincompoop. 

Oh, he doesn't need blackmail material on Quentin. He'll do dumb shit for notLaurel voluntarily!

[Soulfire]

Even though this episode was frustrating for many, many reasons, still --

 

 

 

Mostly including this because his eyes are really blue here.

From here and here.

[tennisgurl]

Wow, those baby blues Stephen! And William, Felicity, and Oliver becoming a cute little family unit has become one of the most surprisingly delightful things about the show this season. 

One of my big problems with the Newbies (besides...everything) is how their story is being framed. I dont mind when heroes have flaws, or make mistakes or do bad things because they seemed like good ideas at the time. I prefer that even, it makes them more human and relatable, and if done well, can create an excellent character arc where we see the heroes try to work past their faults or past mistakes and become better. That can lead to great drama and storytelling. But, for this to work, the writers have to be aware of the flaws of their characters. Oliver is a deeply flawed man, but the show is aware of this, so he can work to change and become a better person, and we can root for him to overcome his dark side. With NTA, the show really doesn't seem to think they're making a mistake here, or are at all in the wrong, and its ridiculous. Look, I cant imagine ever really loving NTA after this, but, if after the schism happened, if they had realized that they made mistakes and that their personal flaws and bad choices escalated a situation, and they actually apologized and tried to do better, I could maybe tolerate them on my screen. But, the writers wont let this happen. Its all being framed as them being these awesome heroes who have no flaws and have done nothing wrong and that everything ever is Oliver's fault. But, thats not what we see! What we see are three people who, at best, are deeply flawed individuals who bring the worst out in each other, and have ton terrible things for what they thought were good reasons. At worst, and what I've increasingly seen, are three hypocritical, narcissistic, smug, uncaring assholes who wouldn't know a hero if one punched them in the face. This isnt a tragic conflict between flawed people, its the tale of thee pieces of shit, and the actual heroes who now have to deal with them for a greater good, and now how to cow tow to them because its what the writers want. Its just a total mess. 

Honestly, the only thing to save this season would be if Black Siren finally melted Diazes brains or something, and NTA became the true Big Bad of the season.

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

Speaking of compromised public officials, have Hill and Armand been reinstated? Also, why did Dick tear up the contract Quentin signed? That's blackmail material, you nincompoop. 

It was just a test. Now he feels comfortable that Quentin will follow his lead.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Honestly, the only thing to save this season would be if Black Siren finally melted Diazes brains or something, and NTA became the true Big Bad of the season.

It wouldn't save the season, IMO, but I actually wouldn't mind BS just randomly screaming and melting Diaz's brains after he's just given some lame villain monologue and she just shrugs like "I was bored." It would be in keeping with what we've seen of her this season and I'd rather that than this weak-ass redemption they're giving her out of nowhere. ?

[GHScorpiosRule]

I am SERIOUSLY getting shades/vibrations of Season 9 Smallville with this shitty writing and arrogance of the writers. At least on Smallville, I got my few episodes of Tom/Clark all mussy, bloody and sweaty, which just amped up his hawtness; and Justin's HAWT Green Arrow. I don't even get to see Stephen shirtless, flexing his muscles while working on the salmon ladder.

Okay, I suck. I couldn't find one of him all mussed up, so here's an earlier look.

[tennisgurl]

10 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

It would be in keeping with what we've seen of her this season and I'd rather that than this weak-ass redemption they're giving her out of nowhere. ?

And her redemption arc is shaping up to be super lame anyway! Instead of her actually reevaluating her life or working to try to be a better person, she either acts like she`s just humoring the crazy man who keeps stalking her, is just acting like she could reform to get stuff, or, possibly worse, they are making her act like some poor abused woobie that Big Bad Diaz is holding hostage or something. Its so stupid and patronizing, it makes me wanna puke. It comes off as super "daddy saves his little girl from her mean boyfriend" and thats pretty much a total 180* change from her being remorseless and somewhat competent villain. 

[bijoux]

6 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

It was just a test. Now he feels comfortable that Quentin will follow his lead.

I heard what he said, but tearing it up is still short sighted because why not keep it to use it for something else? It’s like you buy a car to get to work, but then let it sit when you go grocery shopping and lug your groceries for miles. Just because you get something for one purpose, there’s no reason it can’t be used for something else in the future.

[apinknightmare]

5 hours ago, bijoux said:

I heard what he said, but tearing it up is still short sighted because why not keep it to use it for something else? 

It’s because he’s a ginormous idiot. 

[statsgirl]

He is an idiot. That's a big reason why it's so hard to buy him as the biggest baddest of them all.

Quentin may sign a paper once because  he feels sorry for BS but there is always the chance he's going to come to his senses at some point and stop doing it.  Holding the paper is a way of blackmailing him to continue signing these kinds of things.  Now that it's torn up, 3-D lost his leverage.

[insomniadreams88]

I thought he just tore Lance’s signature off the bottom and planned to use it for something else.

But on second thought, he’s not that smart. 

[apinknightmare]

52 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I thought he just tore Lance’s signature off the bottom and planned to use it for something else.

But on second thought, he’s not that smart. 

LOL, that’s what I thought too. 

[Primal Slayer]

He doesnt care if Lance stops signing, he'll just kill him. I dont think he is that interested in blackmail.

[bobbyjoe]

Diaz is a run-of-the-mill gangster with no superpowers who does things like running drugs and guns.  Somebody apparently forgot that on a superhero show, you need a supervillian who’s A) interesting and B) has some kind of heightened ability and plan that makes them a credible threat.

 

We keep being told that Diaz is so super scary that everybody’s afraid of him, but I still haven’t seen any reason why.  It’s like Negan on The Walking Dead; there’s absolutely no reason somebody wouldn’t have just shot him in about a million different scenes other than stupid plot armor.  With Diaz, BS is all like “oh noes, he set a guy on fire”— I half hoped Damien Darhk would suddenly pop up in that scene and say “golly gee whiz, he set one dude on fire?  Here, let me set twenty guys on fire just by snapping my magic fingers.”

[bijoux]

The thing is, this could have worked much better if the season was set up the other way around villain wise. There's Dick for the first part of the season and the team inexplicably can't take him down. They just don't get it, how is this possible, Rene could take him. Hell, Curtis... Ok, not Curtis, but Rene could take Diaz's lame ass. And this begins to set everyone on edge, leading to frayed tempers, bad calls, and finally the team split. And then, it's revealed that Cayden James is pulling all the strings. He also kills Diaz when he gets tired of him. Or Anatoly does so unceremoniously when Diaz steps in front of the TV while Anatoly is watching a baseball game. CJ: Mr Knyazev there was no need to do that. Anatoly: I beg to differ. You were not the one forced to watch him try on tacky suits and pretend he knows how to fight.

[apinknightmare]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

He doesnt care if Lance stops signing, he'll just kill him. I dont think he is that interested in blackmail.

I don't think he was after the signature now, but when I was watching when he pointed to the paper and indicated he was after the signature (before he indicated it was a loyalty test), for a split second I thought maybe he was going to forge some documents to set Quentin up for something so he was removed as mayor too so he could put his own guy in there. But that's too smart, no way would he be that calculating LOL.

[UNOSEZ]

I don't mind Diaz as a villain... I don't really remember that the show really made an effort with cayden James... We were just told he was super smart and good at computers so we bought all the condescending talks he had with everyone.. Sure Diaz is just a "thug" ( with all the racial and socio-econimic baggage that comes with the term)  but I enjoy that while cayden James was coming up with his utterly idiotic plan to what.. Blow up a city he didn't notice the street tuff gaining influence thru good ol fashion bribery and hyper violence.. Even tho it makes no sense humans fall behind ppl Like  that.. We always have... Add that to the fact that Richard dragon(Diaz) is supposed to be one of the beat fighters in universe I get it... As much as I got Cayden James.. Neither of  them are Slade but I'd rather a Diaz over a James anyday... 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

James was coming up with his utterly idiotic plan to what.. Blow up a city he didn't notice the street tuff gaining influence thru good ol fashion bribery and hyper violence..

And Diaz's utterly idiotic plan was to use James as a stooge and was clearly so wrapped up in that that he helped James get the things he needed to build a bomb to blow up the city Diaz was trying to take over and had no way to stop it to the point where he was looking for a helicopter to evacuate him before Cayden detonated it. At least Cayden was being played - Diaz doesn't have any excuse. He's just a raging moron. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

15 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

And Diaz's utterly idiotic plan was to use James as a stooge and was clearly so wrapped up in that that he helped James get the things he needed to build a bomb to blow up the city Diaz was trying to take over and had no way to stop it to the point where he was looking for a helicopter to evacuate him before Cayden detonated it. At least Cayden was being played - Diaz doesn't have any excuse. He's just a raging moron. 

This is why you can't tell me Diaz is so smart he'd set all this up. Moronic idiot. He's such an effin' failure.

[way2interested]

34 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I don't mind Diaz as a villain... I don't really remember that the show really made an effort with cayden James... We were just told he was super smart and good at computers so we bought all the condescending talks he had with everyone.

To be fair, James had more set up than Diaz did. People we cared about (Lyla, Felicity) gave us that information back in s5, and he was tied to a principles argument between both Diggle and Lyla and Oliver and Felicity. Even if he didn't have more depth, the audience is already more invested because of the indirect history he has with the main characters. Diaz was introduced through Diggle but then quickly pushed to the side, so there's no emotional involvement with him whatsoever.

This isn't me saying that James was a great villain, more like Diaz and James are two halves of what could have been a good villain. 

[UNOSEZ]

57 minutes ago, way2interested said:

This isn't me saying that James was a great villain, more like Diaz and James are two halves of what could have been a good villain

Maybe a great villain... I guess when I constantly see posts calling Diaz an idiot and a common thug when ( plot holes and writing mistakes aside)  he got cayden James to help cripple team arrow and took over the city... I get defensive cuz I read that as something else ( which is totally my own stuff to deal with but still) 

I get what ur saying tho about cayden being referenced before by other characters.. So there was a bit of history there.. I think maybe the show wanted to do a little " usual suspects " with Diaz but kinda missed the mark a bit

[statsgirl]

Diaz is an example of a character that is all tell and very little show.  We're told that he took over the administrators and police of Star City but other than paying for the DA's kid's cancer treatment (what would US TV shows do for plot if they ever get single payer medical care), but none of the rest makes sense.  He said that he would target the Chief of Police's family if she didn't do what he said.  Why didn't she use her resources to protect them?  How is it that there are only six members of the police department who aren't corrupt?  I know it's hard to be a policeman in Star City but that's ridiculous.

They have never shown Diaz to have the smarts or the complexity to put together the plan to take over behind Cayden James' back.  He would have had to not only know who Cayden James is before ARGUS took him into custody but to know how James would react to his son being killed, and to know that Oliver, the mayor, is also the Green Arrow and be able to find someone skilled enough in IT to fake the pictures of the Green Arrow killing James' son.  If he's that much of a strategic thinker, why did he need to steal a 3-D printer to print drugs?  (A chemist friend said that the 3-D drug printing is ridiculous but I'll give them that McGufifn.)  How did he not keep James from building the bomb that would dismantle everything he had build up to take over Star City, much les get out of town before it blew up?

The definition of a thug is "a common criminal, who treats others violently and roughly, often for hire".  I think this describes Diaz, even more so because there's never be en any indication of any subtly in his make up.  He wants a vicuna suit because it's expensive even though he doesn't know what vicuna is; his greatest desire is a seat at the table and to kill the teenage boy who bullied him thirty years before.  A boy who overcame his own mostly likely abused childhood to make himself a decent member of society.

And as others have said, the biggest "tell not show" is the fact that the Black Siren, who is not just a meta but kills for fun, is afraid of Diaz. It makes no sense that if she doesn't like him, why she just doesn't kill him.

The writers seem to think that because Diaz is a big thing in the comic books, they could just steal that without having to do any work of their own.

[kes0704]

5 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 The writers seem to think that because Diaz is a big thing in the comic books, they could just steal that without having to do any work of their own.

This part right get is my biggest issue with the show. I shouldn’t have to be well versed in comic book lore to watch the show. It never used to be that way. 

They had 18 prior episodes to set Diaz up as a compelling villain and they didn’t use that time to show us much of anything. 

Instead, they used the story shortcut of ‘because comics’ as the reason why Diaz is the greatest villain the Green Arrow has ever faced. 

As a viewer I shouldn’t have to do “homework” to fill in the details and plot holes. 

[Primal Slayer]

I don't understand how some of these storylines were planned since the beginning of the season but just now coming to fruition. Makes it look like they are making it up as they go along  

[Cthulhudrew]

Dammit, Zoe! Just when things were starting to look up, you have to open your mouth.

Question: Why is Curtis always throwing his balls around when they are self-propelled?

(Yes, I know they are called spheres; I just like saying "throwing his balls around" because I have the maturity level of a 12 year old.)

On 4/27/2018 at 2:11 PM, bethy said:

Testing something....

 

 

LOL. One of my all-time favorite movies. So appropriate.

 

ETA: Also, isn't all this Diaz stuff a little outside of ARGUS' mandate? For that matter, I'm not entirely sure what ARGUS' mandate is. I thought it was supposed to be like black ops Homeland Security anti-terrorism stuff, so maybe the Quadrant gun-running puts it in their hemisphere, but Dig was already acting before that came about.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[arjumand]

On 4/27/2018 at 3:20 PM, tv echo said:

I'm also glad that Oliver defeated Diaz in that fight (before Diaz cheated and used a knife), but the fight shouldn't even have lasted as long as it did.

Yes. Exactly. I can't be arsed to watch the episode, but I watched relevant parts on youtube, specifically the fight and the conversation with Anatoly. I'm not an Anatoly fan, so I have nothing to say about that, really, but the fight was . . . not good.

Either Oliver was holding back, or it was scripted like that. Remember the hallway scene in Season 1? Season 1 Oliver took down 20 guys in the same time it took him to immobilise Diaz. Season 1 Oliver would have gone for the neck snap, not the empty ultimatum.

 

On 4/27/2018 at 11:11 PM, bethy said:

Testing something....

 

 

I love this gif, and in my case, I need to express how much I hate these writers. They're writing Diggle like a childish, whiny asshole (But he said I could be the Green Arrow now! It's not fair!), writing NTA as the most horrible unsympathetic jerks, and simultaneously making it clear that we're supposed to like them, and writing our protagonist superhero as a loser.

Ugh. This is reaching Detective Tiny Hands nooner levels of yuck.

[bijoux]

28 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Either Oliver was holding back, or it was scripted like that. Remember the hallway scene in Season 1? Season 1 Oliver took down 20 guys in the same time it took him to immobilise Diaz. Season 1 Oliver would have gone for the neck snap, not the empty ultimatum.

You don't even need to go back so far. Only two episodes ago a drugged up Oliver mowed through a bevvy of dirty cops.