S16.E12: Michael Avenatti, Jordan Peterson, Frank Bruni, Jay Inslee, and Alex Wagner

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Attorney Michael Avenatti is the top-of-show interview guest. Clinical psychologist Jordan Peterson is the mid-show interview guest. The roundtable guests are columnist Frank Bruni, Wash. Gov. Jay Inslee and author Alex Wagner.

[angelamh66]

Avenatti was considerably less annoying than he has been in other interviews. And while I see some of Jordan Peterson's points, I enjoyed watching Alex Wagner hand him his ass on Overtime. 

[bethja]

.Peterson seriously pissed me off in Overtime.  Why should I have to worry about the feelings of Trump voters if Trump is impeached? Did any of them worry about how Clinton voters felt, winning the popular vote but losing the presidency? Why must it always be the liberals who have to "reach out"and be kind to the other side.  Who was chanting "lock her up" at Trump rallies and wearing "Trump the bitch" t-shirts?  If they're so unhappy being called stupid, maybe they should think twice before demonizing "coastal elites" and insinuating that we're not "real Americans".  I'm sick to death of being told all the polarization in this country is due to identity politics on the left.  I agree that both sides do need to start coming together but it's going to take both sides, not just liberals.  I knew this guy was going to play that game the minute he started complaining about the leftists in academia.  

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, bethja said:

I'm sick to death of being told all the polarization in this country is due to identity politics on the left.  I agree that both sides do need to start coming together but it's going to take both sides, not just liberals.  I knew this guy was going to play that game the minute he started complaining about the leftists in academia.  

Yes, basically the relationship they want is where Trump voters are the drunk, abusive father and the rest of us are their abused children who are constantly told that if we just behave correctly and don't upset Daddy he'll spontaneously stop drinking and lashing out at us and get a great job etc. Doesn't matter that when people *do* suck up to abusive dad he calls them condescending and backhands them anyway.

This is even used as an argument about the Civil War. If the north hadn't attacked the South they would have freed the slaves anyway. And if the north hadn't interfered after the war they wouldn't have lashed out with Jim Crow etc.

[bobbyjoe]

I did love how Alex pinned Jordan Peterson down on Overtime with how phony he is.  Yeah, he’s all about criticizing liberals for supposedly being too easily offended but, gee, he says, everybody needs to be so very very careful not to offend Trump voters because they’re all such special snowflakes.  Mmmmm hmmmm.

You know Alex hit a home run on this point because even Bill broke through his usual robotic “PC on Campus” fixation to shoot down Peterson’s attempt to deflect and say “that’s a good question.”  It’s almost like Bill was just this close to actually making a realization.

Edited April 22, 2018 by bobbyjoe

[CaliCheeseSucks]

So tired of Avenatti's media mugging all over the place. There's such a thing as overexposure and he's hit it.

Love Alex Wagner and wish the panel had been Wagner and Inslee only; Bruni just doesn't add anything special and I've found the two-person panels far more engaging when they've been used.

Unless I missed it, there was no mid-panel comedy segment. How I would love for this to become a trend.

[arachne]

2 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Unless I missed it, there was no mid-panel comedy segment. How I would love for this to become a trend.

This week's comedy segment was about "ads" for attorney Michael Cohen. And for once I found it halfway entertaining. 

[sugarbaker design]

7 hours ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Love Alex Wagner and wish the panel had been Wagner and Inslee only; Bruni just doesn't add anything special and I've found the two-person panels far more engaging when they've been used.

Funny, I thought Bruni added way more the conversation than Washington cheerleader Inslee.

[GoldenGirl90]

Jordan Peterson is a tool. He goes on about how the left is obsessed with identity politics, all the while ignoring the fact that identity politics is what gave us a President Trump. He’s whining about political correctness but wants a safe space for Trump voters? Am I understanding his logic correctly?

Whatever. Watching Alex own him was very satisfying. ??

[ganesh]

15 hours ago, bethja said:

I'm sick to death of being told all the polarization in this country is due to identity politics on the left. 

Or, like it's been said on the show, we need to listen to the concerns of our butthurt white dudes who voted for the guy who despises them. I've listened to them enough. They want the country to be 1955 and work in the glamorous coal mines. They think "telling like it is," means they can spew hatred and when they're called on it, they whine about free speech. We know them very well. I'm not obligated to accommodate marks who got conned because they didn't want the lady in charge after the black guy. 

I actually disagree with the panel about the lawsuit. I mean, yeah, it's been two years. The DNC had filed a lawsuit against Nixon too, so it's not like it's coming from nowhere. Sure, it's a political stunt, but I think it's kind of no-lose. For one, it's not like our butthurt white dudes were not going to vote democratic any harder, and for the other, there's enough democratic voters who will get fired up to stick it to Trump and this might get more of them out to vote. There's a chance any of the parties might end up in deposition. If nothing happens? "We were honestly concerned about protecting our democracy for all Americans." 

I'm surprised there aren't any Cohen/Saul Goodman jokes. Seems like an easy go to.

Oh give me a break, 'you have to offend if you're going to think.' What does that have to do with making a trans person feel bad? Call it what it is - you're giving yourself license to be an asshole and don't think you should be called on it. 

[iMonrey]

I was just coming here to say that anyone who was as frustrated and annoyed with Jordan Peterson as I was definitely should watch Overtime because both Alex Wagner and Jay Inslee deftly handed his ass to him. I just wish they'd been given the change to do that on the show proper. The only good part of that interview was Alex Wagner telling Jordan and Bill they should have a baby together.

In fact I definitely felt like Wagner was MVP on this panel. I thought she made a really good point about there being no "pro-Russian" faction in the tea party, so who exactly is Trump trying to appease? 

I don't think running on pot legalization is going to work as a wedge issue for Democrats. The stoners are too lazy to go to the polls. 

[ganesh]

I tend to think people who blame universities don't really know what being faculty entails. Or maybe I'm just in a different department. 

While I think the Fresno professor, who was tweeting from her own account, should say whatever stupid thing she wants to say, it's my understanding that there was a larger context here, and this was one issue of that. So it's more like the president is saying 'this was the last straw,' which he said poorly, but the issue isn't singularly that someone made a dumb tweet and is getting fired. That doesn't fit Bill's canard about there's no free speech on campus. Even though Berkeley of all places paid for security for Milos what's his name, to the tune of $800K. Which was part of an overall tab of $4 million. But no free speech anymore. Sure, Bill. 

Hey do you guys know that one time Bill was dis invited from speaking at the Berkeley graduation?!

Alex is a figurative saint for not crushing that guy's windpipe when he was lecturing her about parenting. 

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Oh give me a break, 'you have to offend if you're going to think.' What does that have to do with making a trans person feel bad? Call it what it is - you're giving yourself license to be an asshole and don't think you should be called on it. 

Exactly. This is a guy who seems to be advising caution about convicting a person for major treason and law-breaking which they actually committed because of how his followers are going to feel about it. Funny how nobody was worried about how the majority of the country would feel about winning an election and still not getting the person they voted for because electoral college. They've been out in the streets angry since he took office and he doesn't doesn't seem to think that matters. Does he think Trump's 30% are just more important than all those millions of people, perhaps?

 

17 minutes ago, ganesh said:

I tend to think people who blame universities don't really know what being faculty entails. Or maybe I'm just in a different department. 

When was the last time they were ever actually there? I mean, beyond doing a bad comedy set? They seem to just sit around all day imagining these "far left" college professors brainwashing students. They can't deal with the fact that it's not this tiny group of professors, it's an actual cultural change. When kids grow up thinking treating LGBTQ people, disabled people, people of different races and genders etc. with respect is a good value to hold, they get interested in issues of Civil Rights. Which is what "identity politics" is. As was pointed out above, Trump was all about identity politics. He's about asserting the supremacy of the white straight cis male over everyone else. The only time they want people to forget those differences is when other groups are asking for equal treatment. Then suddenly "all lives matter."

Sure there are humorless people there too and that sucks for a comedian who's used to the days when college campuses were more about being offensive, but hey, cultural changes affect professions sometimes.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't think running on pot legalization is going to work as a wedge issue for Democrats. The stoners are too lazy to go to the polls. 

I do think the democrats won't do that well just running on "We'll stop Trump" or "impeachment", but I don't think this is the right issue either. I don't think they should even mention Mueller. They should get in front of it because it's been a clear economic boost to Colorado, and it does mean more jobs, but as THE issue? I'm not seeing it. Small steps they could run on - fund research to actually study what the benefits actually are and in what doses. 

Bill comparison to guns-weed was funny, and I do take his point. Running or voting on anti-gun isn't really a thing. 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure there are humorless people there too and that sucks for a comedian who's used to the days when college campuses were more about being offensive, but hey, cultural changes affect professions sometimes.

I'm too busy cranking out proposals to worry about brainwashing students. The only agenda I have is 'publish papers.' I mean, I'm sure there's some professors who are bags and think they're so great, but the majority are just trying to get through the day and see how many of the 55 things they have to do that day can actually get done in between students whining about homework being too hard.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This is a guy who seems to be advising caution about convicting a person for major treason and law-breaking which they actually committed because of how his followers are going to feel about it.

On OT, he said, 'you might think these people are backward.' Well, PBS did a week long piece on 'typical' Trump voters, and at the conclusion, they had on some psychologists and economists, and the one common takeaway they had was that "these people are all looking back to a past time and not what's coming up next". So, yes, they literally are. While I certainly think they're allowed to change and ask for help moving forward, I'm not under any obligation to facilitate that. I'm living in 2018. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by ganesh

[CaliCheeseSucks]

7 hours ago, arachne said:

This week's comedy segment was about "ads" for attorney Michael Cohen. And for once I found it halfway entertaining. 

I must have perfectly timed the bathroom break.

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

They think "telling like it is," means they can spew hatred and when they're called on it, they whine about free speech. 

 

They literally voted for the real-life version of the "Old White Guy Says" Twitter account from Community. Except that at least periodically, Pierce Hawthorne was given some redeeming qualities. 

[cali1981]

Last night's show was another example of a poor guest choice which Bill and his staff periodically make.  Bill should realize by now that not every one who agrees with his unique point of view makes for good television.  Peterson is a self-indulgent blowhard who devoured way too much time and brought the show's timing to a halt.  Poor Frank Bruni, a great NY Times columnist, barely got to say anything. It was good to see Alex Wagner.  I remember when she got shafted by MSNBC but she appears to have landed on her feet very nicely.  I'll have to catch Overtime to see her eat Peterson's lunch.

[scrb]

13 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Funny, I thought Bruni added way more the conversation than Washington cheerleader Inslee.

First time I've seen Inslee.  I thought he was smooth and natural on camera.

Some have suggested Hickenlooper for 2020 but if they're going for white male governors of medium-sized states, why not Inslee to see if he gets momentum in the primaries?

But he's not that young (neither is Hickenlooper) and I think he's only had one term as governor, though he's also served in Congress.

[DXD526]

Quote

Poor Frank Bruni, a great NY Times columnist, barely got to say anything.

I love reading Bruni's columns and was really looking forward to hearing what he had to say, but Peterson wouldn't STFU. He was even worse during Overtime, which he totally monopolized. If he's ever listed as being on again, I'm skipping that week. One of the most smug and insufferable guests ever, and that's saying a lot. 

[ruby24]

14 hours ago, scrb said:

First time I've seen Inslee.  I thought he was smooth and natural on camera.

Some have suggested Hickenlooper for 2020 but if they're going for white male governors of medium-sized states, why not Inslee to see if he gets momentum in the primaries?

But he's not that young (neither is Hickenlooper) and I think he's only had one term as governor, though he's also served in Congress.

Inslee's my governor! He's in his second term here, was re-elected in 2016.  I don't watch the show anymore, but how did he do? 

I think he might be considering running in 2020. 

[attica]

Weed was an actual gotv issue when it has been on the ballot, persuading non-habitual (heh) voters to go vote, which makes it attractive for D's this season.  It might not matter to a chunk of D voters, but it will bring in stragglers and  I actually agree with Bill on this.

On 4/21/2018 at 12:02 PM, ganesh said:

I'm surprised there aren't any Cohen/Saul Goodman jokes. Seems like an easy go to.

The quip in the monologue about a 'criminal lawyer 'was literally the way Saul was introduced in Breaking Bad. Not that Bill would credit it.

[ganesh]

"No, we need a criminal. Lawyer." That's what I was thinking when Bill said that which is why I mentioned it. Maybe it's not mainstream enough. 

[Duke Silver]

Love Alex Wagner, and I agree w/ the point upthread about an inkling, a dawning of sorts, seemed to hit Bill...but then it passed like gas due to too much garlic.

"Campus free speech" remains the sole ground for conservative intellectuals to gesticulate over.  And really, that's all it is.  I mean, the far left on campuses has so successfully inculcated generations of unsuspecting youths that.......what we have now is GOP domination at all levels of government.   Uh, o.k.

[teddysmom]

On 4/21/2018 at 12:30 PM, ganesh said:

Alex is a figurative saint for not crushing that guy's windpipe when he was lecturing her about parenting. 

I didn't think he was lecturing her as much as just saying in general to parents who treat their children like they're geniuses and the most special thing in the world to the point that they turn into little assholes.  A neighbor of mine is a teacher at a very tony private school and the shit he deals with is beyond belief.   

The "everybody wins" culture is creating a lot shitty people who think they should be awarded just for existing.  

We can have conversations without being purposely offensive, or giving license to be an asshole because "free speech". 

Alex had a good point regarding the Starbucks race training, in that some people need to admit "I'm biased and I need to figure out why and to try to overcome it". 

[ganesh]

I don't dispute his point, but he was saying "you're going to find out this and you're going to do that." He didn't come off well. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I didn't think he was lecturing her as much as just saying in general to parents who treat their children like they're geniuses and the most special thing in the world to the point that they turn into little assholes.

That's what he said in his opening gambit or whatever. But then he leaned forward and told her what kind of child she would end up having. So he very much did get in her face and lecture her about parenting in general and her own parenting, which he knows FUCK ALL about. How Alex maintained her poise and professionalism, I'll never know. But she did hand him his ASS in Overtime. And ASSHOLE monopolized it, so we didn't get any questions from anyone who had submitted one.

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

I don't dispute his point, but he was saying "you're going to find out this and you're going to do that." He didn't come off well. 

Yup.

I just don't understand Bill. One one hand, he's constantly criticizing Democrats for being weak and losers and that they're not doing anything, yet when anyone points out how there's a blue wave occurring across the country, and that Alex (I think?) told him the country's been protesting since the election, he dismisses it as meaningless, and continues with his bloviating. Just what does he want? Though he didn't mention them specifically, and he had a few of them on his show, during New Rules, he pretty much dismissed the protests of the Parkland Teen Survivors.

[teddysmom]

12 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That's what he said in his opening gambit or whatever. But then he leaned forward and told her what kind of child she would end up having. So he very much did get in her face and lecture her about parenting in general and her own parenting, which he knows FUCK ALL about. How Alex maintained her poise and professionalism, I'll never know. But she did hand him his ASS in Overtime. And ASSHOLE monopolized it, so we didn't get any questions from anyone who had submitted one.

I see your point, but you could say to just about anyone, if you let your child run rough shod over you and spoil them rotten you're could end up with a brat.

Did he say "you specifically, Alex are spoiling your child, yada yada" or i"f you do, you could. "

No parent wants to hear that, no matter how they're raising their child. But it's the rest of society that has to deal with the brats of the world.  I'm not including Alex' child in this at all.  And I'm in no way criticizing Alex, and I understand her reaction, I could have not been paying that close attention to the whole exchange.   I just didn't take it as he meant her in particular. 

I was ready to not like him at all based on the clip they showed, but I agree with some of his points about child rearing.   I have a friend who has let her daughter be rude to people here in our office, and to her at home. She didn't want to upset her and ruin her weekend, when she brought home a report card where she failed all subjects.  So she waited until the next week to take her phone and iPad away.   This is what I'm talking about.  I wouldn't have seen daylight for a month other than to go to school if I brought home a report card like that. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I could have not been paying that close attention to the whole exchange.   I just didn't take it as he meant her in particular. 

Like I said; he and Bill were talking in generally about how rude kids are, end up being assholes because the parents want to be their friends and not parent. But when Alex said she just had a child, Peterson, leaned across Bill and told her how her kid would end up a brat, if she didn't do x, y or z.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I see your point, but you could say to just about anyone, if you let your child run rough shod over you and spoil them rotten you're could end up with a brat.

Did we learn nothing from Veruca Salt?

Seriously - spoiled children are nothing new. I don't know why Bill or anyone else seems to think they are more prevalent now than they were 50 years ago except that maybe they are more visible now because of social media. There are plenty of good parents out there doing their jobs and raising their children to be polite. We just don't hear about those. Bill is showing his age. Pretty soon he'll be complaining about the "noise" kids call music these days. He has brought up this subject (children who say "F.U." to their parents) twice now - I wish I knew the specifics of it, where he's seen these kids, etc. My gut says he saw one instance of that on some random occasion and extrapolated that all children act that way today.

[GHScorpiosRule]

13 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

He has brought up this subject (children who say "F.U." to their parents) twice now - I wish I knew the specifics of it, where he's seen these kids, etc. My gut says he saw one instance of that on some random occasion and extrapolated that all children act that way today.

Yup. That's my guess as well. Because what I've been seeing on social media lately? Parents punishing their kids for being bullies and posting it on Face Book. There was that one dad who made his kid walk/run to school in the rain while he filmed it and followed him in his car, because his son was acting like a bully.

And did anyone else hear how BILL, an avowed ATHEIST, muttered "Jesus Christ!" either during his and Peterson's love fest over spoiled kids or the Free Speech nonsense.

[One Imaginary Girl]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I don't think that the possibility of offending is a natural consequence of thinking, which is inward or inner.  It's the expression of one's thoughts that could cause offense.  That jumped out at me right away.

[ganesh]

He just doesn't want to have to watch what he says, so his premise is that he can get away with saying what he wants because he's "thinking". 

And yeah, I yell at colleagues all the time when we're doing actual work, but I don't personally insult them. 

He never answered the initial question in the clip - what makes it ok for you to offend a trans person? 

[Victor the Crab]

Yeah Bill, Democrats and other liberals should listen to you and do exactly what you say if they have "any chance of winning in November", like take up one of your hobby horses such as weed legalization - or is it bashing Muslims or political correctness? Because you were soooo successful the last time there were midterms (hint: NOT!)

Jordan Peterson should go eat a bag of huge dicks. Preferably, with Alex Wagner stuffing them down his big mouth. And there should be some leftover for Bill to choke on.

18 minutes ago, ganesh said:

He just doesn't want to have to watch what he says, so his premise is that he can get away with saying what he wants because he's "thinking".

Like he was "thinking" early last June when he dropped the "n" word.

Quote

He never answered the initial question in the clip - what makes it ok for you to offend a trans person? 

For Bill, his lame excuse is he was making a "joke", which is always his go to excuse whenever one of his jokes falls flat or just outright sucks, because he thinks that because he supports groups like the LGBTQ community or African American people he's entitled and privileged to make lewd jokes about them without repercussions. Yet others in his field, like Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, and Trevor Noah, never go down this road and are successful at being funny and getting their message across. Last year, Anthony Atamanuik as Drumpf on The President Show was training with U.S. soldiers who are trans, as well as being grilled by a Marine drill sergeant who was also trans. You think Bill would grow up and come up with something along those lines?

[Zanne]

12 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I didn't think he was lecturing her as much as just saying in general to parents who treat their children like they're geniuses and the most special thing in the world to the point that they turn into little assholes.  A neighbor of mine is a teacher at a very tony private school and the shit he deals with is beyond belief.  

 

10 hours ago, teddysmom said:

But it's the rest of society that has to deal with the brats of the world. 

I literally lol'ed when he got to the part about raising kids people won't like. I'm a teacher, and I have some absolute asshole kids this year. It's more than I've ever had in a single year before. The sad thing is, the parents defend their child's awful behavior to the point the kid feels like they don't have to follow the rules of polite society anymore.

[teddysmom]

9 hours ago, Zanne said:

I literally lol'ed when he got to the part about raising kids people won't like. I'm a teacher, and I have some absolute asshole kids this year. It's more than I've ever had in a single year before. The sad thing is, the parents defend their child's awful behavior to the point the kid feels like they don't have to follow the rules of polite society anymore.

A coworker's wife is an art teacher and the new principle doesn't like disciplining children at the school because it makes them feel bad about themselves. Up until recently they were allowed to run thru the halls and knock down students' art work that had been hung there. 

I appreciate that Alex was feeling a little sensitive about her child. I'm not a parent, but I know from having dogs and pet sitting/training them,  and having to tell people to their face "you let them get away with everything and give them what they want, it's like a kid. They turn into assholes. Now you may not be doing it, but it's always something to keep in mind. When I walk your dog, she walks by my side and knows I won't let her run all over the place. When you walk her, she pulls and is unruly. Whose method is working? I'm not cruel, she just knows what I expect." 

My sister would do my niece's "projects" when she didn't get them done, "because I don't want her to fail". I told her "let her fail a few times, it's good for her and she'll learn from the humiliation".  My mother was very strict with us, didn't take shit, and at some point let us live with our choices. Guess what? We grew up to be responsible adults, for the most part. 

If we wonder why people are assholes now, look at how they were brought up. 

[attica]

I don't have a lot of anecdotal experience with kids, but for every kid who 'calls Children's Services' (cite needed, Bill*) on their parents, there are parents who call the cops on their misbehaving kids (I am related to a person who did this. They are white, which is probably why the kids are still alive. And in spite of such atrocious parenting, the kids are quite nice adults now.).

*I will accept this is a threat some kids use, but I'll be gobsmacked if there are data to back up it actually happening. For nothing else, kids don't call anybody, and I don't think most CPSs have text or twitter capability.

[SpiritSong]

On 4/24/2018 at 6:25 AM, attica said:

I don't have a lot of anecdotal experience with kids, but for every kid who 'calls Children's Services' (cite needed, Bill*) on their parents, there are parents who call the cops on their misbehaving kids (I am related to a person who did this. They are white, which is probably why the kids are still alive. And in spite of such atrocious parenting, the kids are quite nice adults now.).

 

I have a friend who called the cops on her teenage son, and justifiably so. Assault and battery is not "misbehavior." It's a crime, and parents who react appropriately are to be applauded, not condemned. My friend was reluctant to do so on several previous instances, until I pointed out that what she was teaching her young daughter was that it was okay for someone to harm her, and she wasn't worth protecting.

The son turned 18 and eventually moved out. He's still a thief, a liar and supports himself by selling illegal drugs. Her daughter is an honor student. You can't just blindly accuse people of "atrocious" parenting. She did the best she could, and she loves both her kids.

[scrb]

On 4/22/2018 at 12:06 PM, ruby24 said:

Inslee's my governor! He's in his second term here, was re-elected in 2016.  I don't watch the show anymore, but how did he do? 

I think he might be considering running in 2020. 

Like I said, I thought he seemed pretty comfortable on camera.  I'm not sure how many media appearances he did outside of WA but he looked confident.

Now I'm listening to him on Larry Wilmore's podcast.

He sure sound like he's running for something else, talking about having the right position on gun control, climate change, etc.  As if he's been practicing articulating a lot of these policy issues.  So far they haven't covered health care, which is probably going to be one of the biggest issues this fall and beyond.

[smores]

Back when I was in elementary school, roughly 100 years ago, they did teach us about CPS, and basically said if you were being abused, call this number and report it.  So, being a little shit, at some point, I think I got spanked for doing something wrong (this was the early/mid 80s, so kind of normal), and I said that we were told to report it.  I was told that I was more than welcome to call, but I wouldn't be alive when they got here to report it.  And, that was the end of me reporting anything to CPS.  Of course my parents wouldn't ever beat me, they just weren't the type of people to sugar coat things, so that was their way of shutting it down.  I knew they weren't doing anything out of line, I was being a little shit, and that was the end of that.