S04.E18: Lose Yourself

[sarthaz]

8 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Except Barry isn't really wrong. Deadly force should only be used if one's life or the life of another is in immediate danger. Additionally, if you have less restrictive means to subdue the perpetrator, you should use them. The folks on Team Flash had less restrictive means to subdue DeVoe, which they attempted to deploy, but Ralph didn't activate the cuffs. Team Flash isn't judge, jury, and executioner. They don't have the right to just kill people and I'm kind of glad that Barry has decided that his powers don't give him the authority over life and death. It's also why the pipeline prison wasn't well received by fans and why the show has taken efforts to rectify that by creating metahuman detention wings in the prison. It's why dictators and warlords go on trial at the Hague. It's actually the more sophisticated viewpoint. Unfortunately, the show isn't smart enough to have Barry connecting the not killing rule to his and his father's experiences with the justice system. 

Except DeVoe is not some human warlord who can be captured or imprisoned, and every pointless failed attempt to do so just results in more innocent people dying. Given the scope of his powers, I think it's reasonable to approach the situation where every second he is alive places everyone on the planet in immediate danger.

[benteen]

Agreed.  Putting down Devoe is the right call.  At the very least, Barry shouldn't be taking that option off the table.

Edited April 18, 2018 by benteen

[adora721]

I'm not sure why Barry as The Flash hasn't enlisted the aid of law enforcement to help capture DeVoe before now. We know the CCPD doesn't currently trust Barry Allen, but they do still trust The Flash. After the police saw the events at the penitentiary, Team Flash should have enlisted the aid of the police. Even if they couldn't pin it all on DeVoe, they could have set a plan in motion to use law enforcement in their quest to thwart DeVoe's plans. And the police are empowered to use deadly force.

 

Or, how about asking Joe to use the tuning fork to kill DeVoe because Joe is a police officer legally authorized to use deadly force when justified.

Edited April 18, 2018 by adora721

[Writing Wrongs]

Team Flash sucks at saving people.

Are they required to make a Marvel reference in every episode now?

[Chicago Redshirt]

Does someone have at their fingertips the body count for Team Flash? Obviously, it is nothing close to, say, the body count of Team Arrow, where pretty much every episode at least 3-5 mooks get killed (or at least, suffers what would seem to be a life-threatening arrow/bullet wound), and even some of the Big Bads get killed.

But it seems that at least some people have died over the years because of Barry and co.'s actions.

[mrspidey]

This is why you should never do these hyperintelligent supervillain plots. You'll either have to portray the villain as truly being at least 10 steps ahead of the hero which means the hero has to job to him for 99% of the story, or you have the villain make mistakes which destroys all his credibility. It. just. doesn't. work. 

Edited April 18, 2018 by mrspidey

[ketose]

1 hour ago, mrspidey said:

This is why you should never do these hyperintelligent supervillain plots. You'll either have to portray the villain as truly being at least 10 steps ahead of the hero which means the hero has to job to him for 99% of the story, or you have the villain make mistakes which destroys all his credibility. It. just. doesn't. work. 

I'll bring up the example for this type of season by mentioning Adam from Buffy. That villain also went through the season thwarting every attempt to stop him because that's what the script said and then was easily defeated in the finale, because that's what the script said.

Ultimately, TV shows can't handle a super-intelligent villain because the writers are only of average (or less) intelligence. Yes, they can just make him weirdly omniscient and try to carry that for 20 episodes, but then the resolution looks even dumber by comparison.

And by the way, someone died or "died" in every season finale. Eddie killed himself to stop Eobard, time remnant Barry "died" so the Speed Force could do Barry's dirty work, HR killed himself to save Iris. Failing to murder the villain means someone has to commit suicide.

[phoenics]

20 hours ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Seriously. How many deaths is Barry responsible for now? How many people does Devoe have to murder before Barry slips into Flashtime and just snaps his neck!?

More like dumb ass. How about capturing her and using her? Just sending her back so she can continue to help her mass murdering husband doesn't seem like a great plan. Then again, if this season has shown us anything, it's that Barry and Iris are not exactly the world's greatest thinkers.

More like smart ass - since she HAD to send her in the chair back because that was the only way of bringing OTF back into Star Labs.

Point.  Iris.

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

I'll bring up the example for this type of season by mentioning Adam from Buffy. That villain also went through the season thwarting every attempt to stop him because that's what the script said and then was easily defeated in the finale, because that's what the script said.

Ultimately, TV shows can't handle a super-intelligent villain because the writers are only of average (or less) intelligence. Yes, they can just make him weirdly omniscient and try to carry that for 20 episodes, but then the resolution looks even dumber by comparison.

And by the way, someone died or "died" in every season finale. Eddie killed himself to stop Eobard, time remnant Barry "died" so the Speed Force could do Barry's dirty work, HR killed himself to save Iris. Failing to murder the villain means someone has to commit suicide.

Good point about it being really hard to write a super brilliant villain - in order to take him/her down, he/she has to mess up, etc., destroying the villain's credibility as a real threat - OR the team has to pull off a miracle, which feels cheap.

But I do think the show has telegraphed how TF is going to defeat DeVoe in the end.  DeVoe's "strategy brilliance" was revealed again in this episode as being based on probabilities that he uses to plot his strategy.  Basically, if he calculates that TF is 33% likely to do Action #1, 25% likely to do Action #2, 22% likely to do Action #3 ... ... and 0.02% likely to do Action #10, then he tailors his response for the higher probabilities.  So he would devise plans to counter Actions #1-7, but probably not 8-10 because he doesn't have enough resources.

Thus, TF's best shot is to do something wildly unpredictable (like something Ralph would do) or something that would be so low on DeVoe's Probability matrix that he wouldn't bother devising a counter attack for it.

I also wonder if TF could somehow get the Dark Matter thingee from the machine DeVoe is creating and connect it to DeVoe to do to him what Harry did to himself.

[dkb]

I think Marlize will kill/imprison DeVoe somehow and that is how Team Flash "wins" this season. Maybe a talk from Iris or something, this episode again made it a point to get Marlize to talk about the time her and Iris talked before. There has to be some connection there.

Barry is treating Iris as more of a partner then DeVoe does with Marlize now; which is kind of a reverse of what happened before particularly in the DeVoe and Marlize relationship.

 

Go Iris!!!

[lion10]

Barry got Ralph killed with his moralizing.  DeVoe's been killing people like Ralph for months now and is very ruthless and dangerous, especially to someone who doesn't have super speed and lightning fast reflexes.  Ralph was right about needing to kill DeVoe if they got the chance because DeVoe won't quit and there isn't enough difference in the power level to safely handle him.

 

But then I'm the type of fan that thinks that Batman should kill the Joker around the fifth time he's unleashed a neurotoxin laughing gas into Gotham.

Edited April 19, 2018 by lion10

[Whodunnit]

Is anyone else annoyed that Barry seems to have reverted back to the season 2 mentality that he can lock any meta up in Star Labs indefinitely? Because that has to be his plan after learning that Ammunet can bust metas out of the meta wing any time she likes...

It's unethical, we've established this, but more than that, Star Labs is not equipped for longtime care of prisoners; I'm not even sure there is a toilet in those cells!

Also, it was a half arsed (and therefore bad) plan, and Ralph was right to think that they were going to die. 

Edited April 19, 2018 by Whodunnit
Metas not metal. Rock on!

[cambridgeguy]

20 hours ago, adora721 said:

Or, how about asking Joe to use the tuning fork to kill DeVoe because Joe is a police officer legally authorized to use deadly force when justified.

That would make Barry the ultimate coward - he refuses to get his hands dirty but will happily call in someone else to do the job.

I hope that during the break the writers look over what they did in season 1.  Some dark and heavy stuff happened there AND they also had a villain who was almost always 10 steps ahead of Our Heroes but the show wasn't a depressing slog most of the time.  It also wasn't as goofy as Legends so hopefully they can find a balance.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That would make Barry the ultimate coward - he refuses to get his hands dirty but will happily call in someone else to do the job.

It's not dirty for a police officer, legally authorized by the state, to kill a criminal he knows has murdered almost a dozen people including a warden. As a CSI, I don't know if Barry has the same license to kill as Joe does.  Notice I said kill not murder. Killing a serial killer, which is what DeVoe is, isn't dirty work; it's justice. 

And we can assume DeVoe's "enlightenment" isn't going to be good for CC or possibly the world, since megalomaniacs rarely settle for just controlling a city. Therefore, they are more than justified in killing him to save the planet - no dirty work involved. We don't call our police or military forces  "dirty" when they kill criminals or our enemies. It should be the last resort, but it doesn't make them or their work dirty.

Edited April 19, 2018 by adora721

[Cekrypton1]

I have to assume that because Ralph's body is still there, that the finale will have them sucking the Thinker's consciousness out of Dibney's body and that Ralph's consciousness will re-emerge. That just as his body is elastic, so was his consciousness, so unlike the others, it wasn't destroyed, just pushed aside or compressed by DeVoe's.

Here's my Q: I thought the meta powers were a result of dark matter interacting with the body/genes of the power host. That is why they are all different--speed, cold, weather control, etc--because their genes are different and react differently. So how is DeVoe able to both acquire the powers and then take them with him in his new bodies?

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

 

I have to assume that because Ralph's body is still there, that the finale will have them sucking the Thinker's consciousness out of Dibney's body and that Ralph's consciousness will re-emerge. That just as his body is elastic, so was his consciousness, so unlike the others, it wasn't destroyed, just pushed aside or compressed by DeVoe's.

 

I will have a major problem if the team finds some way to save Ralph and all of the other bus metas die. 

2 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Here's my Q: I thought the meta powers were a result of dark matter interacting with the body/genes of the power host. That is why they are all different--speed, cold, weather control, etc--because their genes are different and react differently. So how is DeVoe able to both acquire the powers and then take them with him in his new bodies?

Good question. I don't think they have used that as the reasoning for a while. Especially, since last season they used the husks to explain the new meta abilities. Are there any metas still running around from the original dark matter explosion outside of DeVoe?

Plus, they are using that chair to switch the powers. Perhaps, that's why the powers are able to move to the other body.

[ruby24]

But, I assume the other bus meta's bodies have been buried already, right? They've been dead for weeks/months. Unless Star Labs is saving them all in case they can get them back, but that hasn't even been brought up as a possibility.

I only think Ralph is alive because they went out of their way in this last episode to say that his body is capable of hosting all the other powers in a way that the others weren't. So if he's still in there it's probably because of the way his cells work.

[Kate45]

15 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

But, I assume the other bus meta's bodies have been buried already, right? They've been dead for weeks/months. Unless Star Labs is saving them all in case they can get them back, but that hasn't even been brought up as a possibility.

This is a really good question. They have never shown us what has happened with the other bodies. They have only shown us what happened with DeVoe's original body. 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Here's my Q: I thought the meta powers were a result of dark matter interacting with the body/genes of the power host. That is why they are all different--speed, cold, weather control, etc--because their genes are different and react differently. So how is DeVoe able to both acquire the powers and then take them with him in his new bodies?

That's the same question I asked months ago when he started doing all the body-swapping. Yeah, I think it's a plot hole. With Melting Point's powers it makes slightly more sense that he could acquire more powers, but otherwise, no - it shouldn't work (with the way the show has always explained powers).

But now you've got me thinking about another plot hole (or just sloppy/lazy writing?) in this episode: So there were 4 bus metas at STAR Labs for DeVoe to snatch (Melting Point, Null, Folded Man, Ralph); and the main reason that the previous bus metas died is because DeVoe was taking over their bodies, to get their powers. But after taking Melting Point's powers, no one else should have died. Since, he could easily absorb and transfer them now. Yes, I know that DeVoe's evil and all that, but without their powers, they weren't a threat; and so far he hasn't bothered harming anyone who wasn't a threat.

And yes, they have been VERY vague about this season's pile of bodies; I wonder if they're leaving themselves some room to retcon stuff later. Best case scenario (but least likely to happen): the bodies aren't dead, but in a vegetative state, since their minds were erased/suppressed.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Trini
eye speel gud

[BeautifulFlower]

Wasn't the bodies of the bus metas absorbed in 4x13 left in Iron Heights? If so, I'm petty sure the city buried them.

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

That's the same question I asked months ago when he started doing all the body-swapping. Yeah, I think it's a plot hole. With Melting Point's powers it makes slightly more sense that he could acquire more powers, but otherwise, no - it shouldn't work (with the way the show has always explained powers).

But now you've got me thinking about another plot hole (or just sloppy/lazy writing?) in this episode: So there were 4 bus metas at STAR Labs for DeVoe to snatch (Melting Point, Null, Folded Man, Ralph); and the main reason that the previous bus metas died is because DeVoe was taking over their bodies, to get their powers. But after taking Melting Point's powers, no one else should have died. Since, he could easily absorb and transfer them now. Yes, I know that DeVoe's evil and all that, but without their powers, they weren't a threat; and so far he hasn't bothered harming anyone who wasn't a threat.

And yes, they have been VERY vague about this season's pile of bodies; I wonder if they're leaving themselves some room to retcon stuff later. Best case scenario (but least likely to happen): the bodies aren't dead, but in a vegetative state, since their minds were erased/suppressed.

 Meting Po(in)t's powers don't allow him to absorb other meta powers  He only acts as a conduit for transferring them.   Presumably the next person Devoe touches will receive Caitlin's powers (I'm not convinced the Killer Frost persona goes with the powers).   I would assume he gives the powers to Marlize as she's the only one working with him.  

[ottoDbusdriver]

13 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I hope that during the break the writers look over what they did in season 1.  Some dark and heavy stuff happened there AND they also had a villain who was almost always 10 steps ahead of Our Heroes but the show wasn't a depressing slog most of the time.  It also wasn't as goofy as Legends so hopefully they can find a balance.

I'm pretty sure there were fewer pep talks back in S1.

7 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Here's my Q: I thought the meta powers were a result of dark matter interacting with the body/genes of the power host. That is why they are all different--speed, cold, weather control, etc--because their genes are different and react differently. So how is DeVoe able to both acquire the powers and then take them with him in his new bodies?

I'm going to have quote from a running joke from the old TWoP forums from the show 'Revolution', and go with the default excuse for anything inexplicably bizarre that happened --- "nanites !!!"

[GHScorpiosRule]

What the FUCK did I just watch?

[BeautifulFlower]

Sorry I have to nitpick something.

When Barry and the team got alerted over the pocket dimension opening, Barry came through a breach with the others. I know he can super speed change, but did he WAIT for the others to change and then go?

[Katsullivan]

On 4/19/2018 at 11:13 AM, adora721 said:

It's not dirty for a police officer, legally authorized by the state, to kill a criminal he knows has murdered almost a dozen people including a warden. As a CSI, I don't know if Barry has the same license to kill as Joe does.  Notice I said kill not murder. Killing a serial killer, which is what DeVoe is, isn't dirty work; it's justice. 

Police officers - even American police officers - aren't licensed to carry out executions. And yes, I make this statement aware of its supreme irony.

[ketose]

The use of lethal force is authorized more for the protection of lives rather than successful apprehension. You can't kill someone because they were running away. But even Barry would have been within the law to kill DeVoe while he was trying to kill metas.

What annoys me is how ridiculous these set-ups are. Being a comic book "hero" is supposed to be about not shooting people or killing villians when that was all based on comic book codes from decades ago. This is why Deadpool is the best hero in comic book movies today. And the DC writers should watch the Colossus speech about what being a hero truly means. It means showing an enemy mercy, not refusing to kill a mass murdering megalomaniac because of your personal code that gets more people killed.

[gaby4ever25]

Quote

I have to assume that because Ralph's body is still there, that the finale will have them sucking the Thinker's consciousness out of Dibney's body and that Ralph's consciousness will re-emerge. That just as his body is elastic, so was his consciousness, so unlike the others, it wasn't destroyed, just pushed aside or compressed by DeVoe's.

 I have a theory that Ralph’s meta powers will allow him to regain control of his mind long enough for Team Flash to defeat Devoe. 

[Trini]

Is killing DeVoe even an option, really? He's thwarted nearly every possible attack; only Fiddler got the closest. And now he's got even more powers to defend himself, plus an nearly indestructible body.

But for the record, I'm on the side that murder shouldn't be the go-to for the Flash (or anyone else), he's supposed to be able to defeat bad guys with his speed and brains, not brute force. Plenty of other shows for that.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

 

But for the record, I'm on the side that murder shouldn't be the go-to for the Flash (or anyone else), he's supposed to be able to defeat bad guys with his speed and brains, not brute force. Plenty of other shows for that.

Agreed. Barry doesn't out right murder people as that's not who he is. He looks for other solutions rather than kill. If he does kill, it's in self defense or he has no other choice. That's why I don't understand the people calling him a hypocrite. Some need to realize ther is a difference between premeditated murder and self defense.

[adora721]

11 hours ago, ketose said:

But even Barry would have been within the law to kill DeVoe while he was trying to kill metas.

Exactly! Let's say the Samuroid was a person, Joe would have legal support to  shoot him just as he did.  

 

I'm not for executions either, but all the metas were murdered; law enforcement officers can kill to protect from murder.

[benteen]

On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 11:03 PM, lion10 said:

Barry got Ralph killed with his moralizing.  DeVoe's been killing people like Ralph for months now and is very ruthless and dangerous, especially to someone who doesn't have super speed and lightning fast reflexes.  Ralph was right about needing to kill DeVoe if they got the chance because DeVoe won't quit and there isn't enough difference in the power level to safely handle him.

 

But then I'm the type of fan that thinks that Batman should kill the Joker around the fifth time he's unleashed a neurotoxin laughing gas into Gotham.

 

Batman should kill The Joker, you're not wrong there.  The Joker just escapes and kills people so I say that makes Batman as responsible for it because he refuses to put him down. 

I think what drove me even more crazy than Ralph not trying to kill Devoe due to Barry's moralizing is the fact that he just thought the failed metacuffs would hold Devoe and that he didn't at least knock him out first.  That was Ralph literally screaming to Devoe "KILL ME!  KILL ME!"

Edited April 24, 2018 by benteen

[adora721]

5 hours ago, benteen said:

I think what drove me even more crazy than Ralph not trying to kill Devoe due to Barry's moralizing is the fact that he just thought the failed metacuffs would hold Devoe and that he didn't at least knock him out first.

Yes; or how about having a stun gun around to use instead of a deadly weapon? They know a cop who could procure one for them or have Cisco whip up a meta stun gun... just saying.

Edited April 24, 2018 by adora721

[ketose]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

Yes; or how about having a stun gun around to use instead of a deadly weapon? They know a cop who could procure one for them or have Cisco whip up a meta stun gun... just saying.

The technology arguments end up being a dead end because they're just plot devices. They supposedly had a weapon that stopped DeVoe in Savitar's past and it didn't work. The tuning fork basically existed so that Ralph could incapacitate DeVoe long enough to prove he was a no-kill hero.

[Trini]

I thought it was funny that at some point during STAR Labs rebuilding Iris apparently told Cisco, "...and my desk needs a gun holster." And I'm betting he already had the bomb earring designs from when he made a pair for Cynthia!