S06.E04: Mr. And Mrs. Teacup

[mjc570]

Nothing to add that hasn’t already been said, but I just to weigh in on how much I disliked that opening warehouse scene —- it was so dark I literally would have had no idea what was going on had it not been for CC. (which wasn’t all that much help).   I’ve always liked how this show was so good at atmospherics (especially by such well-chosen music), but that was ridiculous.  It was frustrating not suspenseful for me. 

[Umbelina]

Listening to Costa on that podcast, I'm even more impressed with him, how much thought, effort, and care he puts into Oleg and the show.  He's lovely.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

All the more reason that it would be a propaganda disaster to kill Gennadi. It makes no sense. After Stalin, the KGB did not try to assassinate athletes and artists.

Not to the soviet people though.  You defect?  See what happens.  He would be named a frivolous traitor, and it would be a warning.

Either way, as I said, I think the KGB would rather do away with him quietly, but given that he's in protective custody?  I don't see how they can.

[Bannon]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not to the soviet people though.  You defect?  See what happens.  He would be named a frivolous traitor, and it would be a warning.

Either way, as I said, I think the KGB would rather do away with him quietly, but given that he's in protective custody?  I don't see how they can.

There's a reason that after the madness of Stalin, the Soviet Union didn't do stuff like kill defecting athletes and artists. The propaganda damage greatly outweighed the value gained in further intimidating the Soviet population.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I think she gets some of that from Elizabeth.  I am not sure at this point how much Elizabeth respects Philip.  Either that, or Paige is so desperate to please her mother that she will buy into anything and everything her mother says. 

She probably does. It was hard to miss Elizabeth’s tone- not to mention her actual words- when talking about how “some people” can’t handle it long term. It certainly wasn’t complimentary or understanding. And, yes, disrespectful and condescending.  Paige takes her cues from her rapidly burning out, unable to handle much more Mom. A huge mistake imo on both their parts to continually ignore Philip. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

She probably does. It was hard to miss Elizabeth’s tone- not to mention her actual words- when talking about how “some people” can’t handle it long term. It certainly wasn’t complimentary or understanding. And, yes, disrespectful and condescending.  Paige takes her cues from her rapidly burning out, unable to handle much more Mom. A huge mistake imo on both their parts to continually ignore Philip. 

Indeed.  In that conversation in bed, I was struck by how checked out Elizabeth was.  Phillip was saying some pretty alarming things about their finances, but Elizabeth barely reacted.

[AntiBeeSpray]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

She probably does. It was hard to miss Elizabeth’s tone- not to mention her actual words- when talking about how “some people” can’t handle it long term. It certainly wasn’t complimentary or understanding. And, yes, disrespectful and condescending.  Paige takes her cues from her rapidly burning out, unable to handle much more Mom. A huge mistake imo on both their parts to continually ignore Philip. 

Definitely. Elizabeth's own arrogance and ego is going to bite her in the butt and with Paige taking cues from that kind of behavior, it's not going to help her any. Philip has always been the more stable one and it's too bad that the both of them aren't giving him any respect as of now.

 

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

Indeed.  In that conversation in bed, I was struck by how checked out Elizabeth was.  Phillip was saying some pretty alarming things about their finances, but Elizabeth barely reacted.

Word. She seems intent on letting things burn. She hates America that much.

Edited April 21, 2018 by AntiBeeSpray

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, I wonder if Elizabeth realizes that her involvement in "the plot" is likely to be her dead end, regardless of the actual political outcome.  She didn't particularly get to make an informed choice, she was drafted, and yet -- even if no "corrective action" is necessary wrt Gorbachev -- rather than being super-loyal, reliably 1000% Elizabeth, she may be considered a threat by the very people who enlisted her ... simply because she knows about the "plot" and was willing to participate in an assasination plan against her better .... she is a double threat wrt to the big-wig -- she knows of his involvement and she might be "recruitable" in some future plot that he's not in control of and/or that goes to it's final end ...

She's not a deep thinker, but she may intuit that after the Summit -- because of her unquestioning loyalty and participation in the scheme -- as Oleg said -- too much of a liability to be continue working for the KGB....   More real life (within this fiction):  "If I told you I'd have to kill you."  She seems to know there's no happy ending to this story through no fault of her own.   Because the outcome is unclear and possibiilities so numerous, it's a gnaw rather than a panic at this point, a "can't have your cake and eat it too." --- what happens after? 

Edited April 21, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

Yeah, Elizabeth is screwed either way now.  Hard to care much about financial worries when you are pretty certain you are a dead woman walking.

I do wonder if she's figured that out.  True, she's not a deep thinker, but she knows her job and knows the players, I think she knows she's done, no matter how it turns out. 

And of course, we all know how it turns out...

[SusanSunflower]

I'd be massively "irritable" too (just in the worrying/figuring of it) ... It's would be such a betrayal of all Elizabeth believes about herself being invaluable, irreplaceable, essential.  There may come a "run for the border" moment (though that doesn't seem particularly likely at the moment, given the death-march quality of the season so far). Save herself, save Phillip, save Paige if possible ... trash the big-wig?? ... most likely Henry to be left behind.  She can't -- as yet -- talk it out with Phillip.  It's too awful; but in time, he and Oleg might rise to the occasion to save her ... trying to imagine how properly protect and prepare Paige -- one way or the other -- is beyond comprehension .  

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I do wonder if she's figured that out.  True, she's not a deep thinker, but she knows her job and knows the players, I think she knows she's done, no matter how it turns out. 

I was talking to somebody today about Elizabeth's potential reaction to Putin and we both thought that if she lived and went back to Russia and was still alive today she would totally be able to become a Putin supporter despite the lack of Communism. He would be the leader of the country and she's very open to nationalist rhetoric and very naive about politics. (Philip would hate him.) That led to relating it to this scheme she's in here. She's told by an authority figure that Gorbachev must be stopped from doing this thing. Of course she'd prefer it if all the authority figures were on the same page, but since this is the authority figure who comes to her she immediately starts making herself agree that this is right. The authority figure couldn't be acting out of anything but the good of the country. So Elizabeth becomes more and more anti-American, more and more sure that not only is Gorbachev wrong, he's acting against the will of what "people back home" want. Elizabeth is their champion.

It's a direct contrast to Oleg and Philip making hard choices about what they think is right--and confirms what Oleg said about how easily her loyalty could be used. You don't shake Elizabeth by giving her orders that go against her stated values, but you can shake her by confusing the authority.

So while I think Elizabeth has to be aware of all the things she's denying, she's probably telling herself all the time that she's the one who's saving the country and is the big hero. She might die, but then didn't she always see that in her future? Underneath, though, she's got to be really confused and scared. She never doubts she's doing the wrong thing, but that's in large part because she lets her leaders do her thinking for her. Now she's in a situation where she didn't really have a choice, it's true, but what's almost worse is that for the first time there really is a choice because there's a conflict within the authority.

She might die without honor, even. (For all we know, her father may have died doing his duty and been considered dishonorable too.)

What's weird for me is connecting that to the way she's being with Paige, the lies she's telling to her and about her. I guess she was doing that anyway before this secret mission, but it's still fascinating to think that along with pushing Philip and Henry away, she's practically chaining herself and Paige to the same rock and jumping into the ocean. It just now makes me think of when Martha was leaving and Elizabeth told Philip to lie and promise he'd come meet her in the USSR because it would make her calmer but Philip knew it was better to tell her the truth so she could have a life.

[Dev F]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

What's weird for me is connecting that to the way she's being with Paige, the lies she's telling to her and about her. I guess she was doing that anyway before this secret mission, but it's still fascinating to think that along with pushing Philip and Henry away, she's practically chaining herself and Paige to the same rock and jumping into the ocean.

I've actually been wondering if maybe the lies are about the exact opposite of that -- if Elizabeth is not so much chaining herself and Paige to the same delusion, but using lies and omissions to prevent Paige from becoming just like her. Prior to this season, she's always thought of Paige in terms of how much she reminded her of herself; she wanted her to be able to face the ugly truths of the world and be strong. Now she's desperate to keep her away from the violence and sexual exploitation that she's always prided herself in being able to handle. So what changed?

Well, one big thing that happened is that Elizabeth realized at the end of last season how much she needed Philip's sense of decency and compassion to keep her from becoming lonely, hollow, and cold like Tuan. I wonder if one reason why she's now so desperate to keep Paige "pure" is because she no longer wants her daughter to be a younger version of herself -- she wants her to be a replacement for Philip.

[Darrenbrett]

11 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I also find some of the loose ends from prior seasons (Philip's son, why Gaad was killed) a little odd, but I don't agree that the money issues and boarding school are "small stuff" or a waste of time.  The show has really always been about relationships in the Jennings family unit.  Those seemingly little things loom large.

I agree with this take. And Philip was always pretty positive about the lifestyle they enjoyed, talking about how the food in America, etc. "is pretty great". So, it's nice to see a rounding out of that picture, where he realizes -- via direct experience -- the flaws/challenges/limitations of Capitalism. In drawing to a conclusion, the show can't just get lost in the real politik, it has to finish the story about the marriage and the family as well, or it'll miss the mark on it's original intensions.

One pet peeve from the last few episodes that I've been meaning to touch on. Elizabeth is not only serving as nurse to the guy she's trying to gather intel on, but in addition she's also (twice now) watched him (from VERY close by) with just a different wig on. I mean, come on. Wigs help disguise someone. But the guy's seen Elizabeth up close a hundred times now. He knows her face. So when she showed up in the pizza joint with the long, straight black wig, and before that the shorter brown wig while she walked in front of him and his colleagues with a newspaper in hand... well, that just stretched the credulity way too far for me.

Last point, I loved, LOVED!, the telling look Elizabeth gave Philip when he tried to "intrude" on her little debrief with Paige. I mean, that look said SO MUCH. Spectacular acting. Russel's acting is what I love most about the show. And that's saying a lot. Because clearly, acting is a high point of this show - with numerous stellar performances to make note of.

[AllyB]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

but it's still fascinating to think that along with pushing Philip and Henry away, she's practically chaining herself and Paige to the same rock and jumping into the ocean.

I feel that at some point during the years we skipped, probably early on, P&E came to an arrangement that Philip wouldn't interfere with Paige's KGB training as long as Henry was left out of it. And over the years Elizabeth has decided that to mean that Paige is her child and Henry is Philip's. 

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

What's weird for me is connecting that to the way she's being with Paige, the lies she's telling to her and about her. I guess she was doing that anyway before this secret mission, but it's still fascinating to think that along with pushing Philip and Henry away, she's practically chaining herself and Paige to the same rock and jumping into the ocean. It just now makes me think of when Martha was leaving and Elizabeth told Philip to lie and promise he'd come meet her in the USSR because it would make her calmer but Philip knew it was better to tell her the truth so she could have a life.

I loved the way you put this. I would never have connected the two.

If you survive by telling lies to yourself (and accept the convenient lies told to you by your handlers), then you're inclined to believe that lying to others will help them survive. (and I do believe Elizabeth was intending to be kind in that moment)

Elizabeth believes what she's told, because she needs to. Philip got out, sort of, because at some point he couldn't lie to himself any more.

Both patriots, both love their country. Philip, who wanted to go home last season, can love his country while accepting that it doesn't live up to its ideals.

Elizabeth cannot, so she lies to herself. She lies to herself about Paige, she desperately wants to believe Paige will be useful to the cause despite all evidence to the contrary. And it's part of why she's given Henry over to Philip, because they both are of little use to her now that they aren't part of her mission or goals.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Elizabeth cannot, so she lies to herself. She lies to herself about Paige, she desperately wants to believe Paige will be useful to the cause despite all evidence to the contrary.

I agree.  Paige gives Elizabeth purpose.  If Paige is a successful second generation agent, with legitimate access to the State Department and US government, then everything Elizabeth is doing is worth it.      

Quote

One pet peeve from the last few episodes that I've been meaning to touch on. Elizabeth is not only serving as nurse to the guy she's trying to gather intel on, but in addition she's also (twice now) watched him (from VERY close by) with just a different wig on. I mean, come on. Wigs help disguise someone. But the guy's seen Elizabeth up close a hundred times now. He knows her face. So when she showed up in the pizza joint with the long, straight black wig, and before that the shorter brown wig while she walked in front of him and his colleagues with a newspaper in hand... well, that just stretched the credulity way too far for me.

 

I generally agree, but I will say that if you only know someone by a specific look (like curly reddish hair, nurse's uniform and glasses), you may not recognize them when they are sporting an entirely different look.   

[SusanSunflower]

Still, it would seem to be an extreme and unnecessary risk for the KGB to take ...  yes, I know Keri is the very beautiful #1 star of the show for many people -- but seriously ....  (at least I think that was the point being made) -- an overtasked, even skeletal a crew should not casually risk its "star player" doing this sort of close surveillance. 

[Erin9]

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I agree.  Paige gives Elizabeth purpose.  If Paige is a successful second generation agent, with legitimate access to the State Department and US government, then everything Elizabeth is doing is worth it.      

I generally agree, but I will say that if you only know someone by a specific look (like curly reddish hair, nurse's uniform and glasses), you may not recognize them when they are sporting an entirely different look.   

I don’t think he’d have looked twice at her really. Elizabeth looked very different. He’d have to have made a point of staring at random people in a restaurant, noticing Elizabeth, then thinking hair, glasses etc aside she looks like the nurse....maybe she is the nurse. Highly unlikely imo. It’s not like he was likely to glance at Elizabeth and click in on the resemblance. 

It was dangerous, but comparatively speaking, not that dangerous. 

Speaking of Glenn and Erika. With very limited airtime, they’ve made me care about them, an individuals and as a couple. They clearly love each other a lot. I’d compare this to Stan and Renee, but there is no comparison. They do a lot with so little. Good job by the actors, writers, directors with them. 

[Ina123]

On ‎4‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 10:51 AM, Clanstarling said:

I took typing, because I knew I was going to be a lit major and would be typing papers. But I didn't take shorthand, which was big in the day, so that I wouldn't go the "easy" route to being a secretary. Which I didn't, worked in tech for most of my adult life (and still do). Though ten years ago I helped out a friend by replacing his secretary for a while - and was totally humbled by how hard the job really was.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean it was an easy job. I meant they were usually available and pretty easy to get if your WPM were decent. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Speaking of Glenn and Erika. With very limited airtime, they’ve made me care about them, an individuals and as a couple. They clearly love each other a lot. I’d compare this to Stan and Renee, but there is no comparison. They do a lot with so little. Good job by the actors, writers, directors with them. 

I was shocked when she was referred to as Stan's wife during the episode.  It really does say something that it's still not clear (to me at least) what Renee and Stan even see in each other (aside from Stan being a potential source of information (if it turns out Renee really is a spy)), while Glenn and Erika's caring for each other is completely apparent. 

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

very naive about politics

I think Elizabeth is uninterested in—and impatient with—politics, not naive. 

[Ina123]

20 hours ago, Bannon said:

 Now, it certainly appears that Claudia and Liz are about to pursue significant risk, in the wake of a murder spree, to kill two low value defectors. I really, really, hope that the attempt to murder Mr. and Mrs. Teacup does not figure prominently in the resolution of this show. We'll see, I guess.

It would seem more likely to me that they want them found so as to ship them back and interrogate them for what they gave up. Kind of like Nina and the engineer.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

I feel that at some point during the years we skipped, probably early on, P&E came to an arrangement that Philip wouldn't interfere with Paige's KGB training as long as Henry was left out of it. And over the years Elizabeth has decided that to mean that Paige is her child and Henry is Philip's. 

But would Philip even have that power? I mean, it's the Centre who would want Henry and if they wanted him Elizabeth would move on him in a heartbeat. I can definitely imagine that Elizabeth sees it that way, though. I really hope we get an ep that dives into exactly how Elizabeth is dealing with Henry in her head. Does she imagine herself as making some big sacrifice by letting him go? (Doesn't seem like she feels that way.) Does she see it as throwing a bone to Philip so he has no right to complain about Paige? Does she resent Henry for not caring about her enough to become like Paige? Just feel disconnected from him like he's a stranger? Does she actually find herself hating him because he's so American and keep him away because that disturbs her? (Remember in the pilot Philip said he could see how much Elizabeth hated watching the kids be Americans.)

In this ep she claimed Henry was doing everything Philip wanted him to do--does she see Philip as somehow manipulating Henry to be this American just to spite her?

In a way, a lot of this situation now is a sad reflection on Elizabeth's breezy confidence at the end of last season. She was the one who thought it was no biggie for Philip to just retire because she didn't need him "for this." She's the one who thought it was no biggie for Henry to go to that school, that he'd just be away for a few months and come home.  Back then it seemed she was feeling so good, mostly because of her marriage, that she couldn't see how anything could touch her. Now she seems more resentful of these changes than Philip does.

28 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Still, it would seem to be an extreme and unnecessary risk for the KGB to take ...  yes, I know Keri is the very beautiful #1 star of the show for many people -- but seriously ....  (at least I think that was the point being made) -- an overtasked, even skeletal a crew should not casually risk its "star player" doing this sort of close surveillance. 

But in this case she had to because she's literally the only person on that mission. She's doing two missions with the State Department guy. As the nurse she's just spying on him. When she's in the pizza parlor she's trying to listen to the Russian who works with Gorbachev. He's the one she's spying on for Mexico City.

9 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Speaking of Glenn and Erika. With very limited airtime, they’ve made me care about them, an individuals and as a couple. They clearly love each other a lot. I’d compare this to Stan and Renee, but there is no comparison. They do a lot with so little. Good job by the actors, writers, directors with them. 

Yeah, it really seems to imply that they're intentionally making Renee and Stan's marriage look like as much of a front as possible. That can't be unintentional. Stan's domestic life has been a major storyline on the show, second only to the Jennings'. It seems weird if Renee is just supposed to be some prize Stan has been given for working through his issues post-divorce, because that's how she plays now and she's not much of a prize. Seems like it would be incredibly awkward to live with her.

11 hours ago, Dev F said:

I've actually been wondering if maybe the lies are about the exact opposite of that -- if Elizabeth is not so much chaining herself and Paige to the same delusion, but using lies and omissions to prevent Paige from becoming just like her. Prior to this season, she's always thought of Paige in terms of how much she reminded her of herself; she wanted her to be able to face the ugly truths of the world and be strong. Now she's desperate to keep her away from the violence and sexual exploitation that she's always prided herself in being able to handle. So what changed?

I've been thinking a lot about this because I really am fascinated by just where Elizabeth's head's at with Paige. We've seen her able to lie to herself plenty, but never more so than with Paige. She clearly *is* trying to shield her from ugly truths and seems to be using this idea that Paige will have some cushy job where she just xeroxes things she shouldn't as justification for why she can keep doing that.

Ifshe's imagining making Paige like Philip by shielding her...Philip wasn't ever shielded...

In this ep where Elizabeth talks about "this life" burning people out. It seems like this is the only way she's able to consciously understand Philip's burn out. The life is too hard, so if she can shield Paige from that she won't burn out, won't ever have to see too many bad things. She doesn't want to engage with the idea that his bigger problem was a more fundamental one. He *could* have continued the work if he felt like there was a point to it, but when he thought through his missions all too often the ends just didn't justify the means. That's reflected in Gabriel's thoughts about his own life and the way he tried to do genuinely good things when he went back to the USSR to make up for all the people he'd hurt, including Philip. Elizabeth always avoids all discussions of any flaw in the USSR--she'd always rather talk about WWII than the gulags, dismisses criticism with "everybody has problems" or "mistakes were made."

Philip, in this ep, is taking the exact opposite approach. He's trying to get Paige to think about things *now* either so she can get out or because he thinks it's wrong to shield yourself that way. He thinks he should have started asking questions earlier (he told Gabriel he didn't think or ask any questions when he signed up). That's exactly what Elizabeth is trying to keep Paige from doing. She keeps giving her these lectures about the life, but they're tough-talking, vague pep talks about how "life isn't black and white" and "sometimes things happen you can't control." They're all about *not* looking at things too closely. If she can avoid Paige even having something to avoid thinking about even better. Sometimes you don't get the thing you were after and that's okay. It happens. The pile of dead bodies don't even merit a mention. All that matters is whether you achieved your objective or not. All that matters is that *you* don't have to be afraid no matter what you did. The matter of the general is over. Shit happens; has nothing to do with Paige or Elizabeth. No way of figuring out what went wrong.

That implies, imo, that underneath she does kind of get that that was Philip's problem and she doesn't want him infecting Paige with it. Which just leads me to to another possibility that's the exact opposite of that--that she's doubling down on the defense mechanisms she developed before she met Philip rather than incorporating his style into her own. Thinking too much can bring a good agent down.

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I generally agree, but I will say that if you only know someone by a specific look (like curly reddish hair, nurse's uniform and glasses), you may not recognize them when they are sporting an entirely different look.   

I very often meet people on the job in hard hat and safety glasses. Sometimes that is the only way I ever see them. I was approached while shopping and wondered who in the world was this guy calling me by name? It took me a few seconds because although I'd been with him many times before, I just had never seen him without a hard hat and safety glasses. It was only a fleeting few seconds that I didn't recognize him but I can see how she could pass by in a wig and not be noticed if you associate someone in another way.

[Umbelina]

Yes, and Elizabeth looked sexy, assured, and confident and was wearing at least 3" heels in the restaurant.  In addition I'm pretty sure she came up behind him and then sat facing away from him.  Nurse Elizabeth looks dumpy, shapeless, and short in her flats, and extremely unflattering wig.

Either way, this guy isn't an Elizabeth, trained to notice every detail about everyone. 

Could she pull that off with Stan?  Probably not at close quarters, he would look at everyone in a restaurant as a matter of course. 

They better cut to the chase on Renee pretty soon, it's annoying, at this point, I don't even want to know, EXCEPT I think it plays into the end, so I will have to know anyway, so get to it! 

Very interesting about the The Great Patriotic War!  It's odd, I've been reading so much about WWII, specifically the USSR side lately, and it never even occurred to me to wonder why they called it that, rather than WWII.  "Invaded and fought on home soil" indeed.  I agree with you that this will be about the situation in the Jennings home now.  Great catch.  Great title, if you are correct.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Umbelina

[GingerMarie]

Elizabeth and Philip will start working together again.  They love their kids but above all they love each other and more than ever need each other.  The show started with Elizabeth and Philip against the USA and it will end that way.   The start of the season is just showing us how much they need to work together.  Mr. and Mrs. Teacup.  Who knew these'people would be the end of the Jenning's family.  Whether it be Elizabeth, Paige, Henry or Philip that Stan and the FBI take down but a Jenning's will die.  Maybe not the one we think.  Renee is like 'Wag the Dog' to get our mind off her and next thing you know she is super super double agent for the USA or USSR.  There is a saying 'you can't see the forest because of the trees'.  Maybe we should stand back a little and see if the picture gets clearer.  PEACE

[Umbelina]

Yes, Renee will play into it, but I just hope it's not in some major way.  If she wasn't going to be a part of it, Philip wouldn't have been so suspicious of her.

[duVerre]

11 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

One pet peeve from the last few episodes that I've been meaning to touch on. Elizabeth is not only serving as nurse to the guy she's trying to gather intel on, but in addition she's also (twice now) watched him (from VERY close by) with just a different wig on. I mean, come on. Wigs help disguise someone. But the guy's seen Elizabeth up close a hundred times now. He knows her face. So when she showed up in the pizza joint with the long, straight black wig, and before that the shorter brown wig while she walked in front of him and his colleagues with a newspaper in hand... well, that just stretched the credulity way too far for me.

 

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

 I generally agree, but I will say that if you only know someone by a specific look (like curly reddish hair, nurse's uniform and glasses), you may not recognize them when they are sporting an entirely different look.   

 

1 hour ago, Ina123 said:

I very often meet people on the job in hard hat and safety glasses. Sometimes that is the only way I ever see them. I was approached while shopping and wondered who in the world was this guy calling me by name? It took me a few seconds because although I'd been with him many times before, I just had never seen him without a hard hat and safety glasses.

I became sick a few years ago--not with cancer, but an immune system illness that can make you lose almost all your hair. That is what happened to me--slowly and then suddenly, like going bankrupt. And the hair ain't coming back. So now I wear a wig--have been doing it for a year--and am here to report my experience in the field.

Before the wig, my hair was far from great. It was not only beige, it was the thinnest, finest, dullest hair on Planet Earth. It was so thin that my ears stuck through it--and I don't have prominent, Prince Charles ears.

So when I had to buy a wig, I decided I would go for something really spectacular, something far from what I usually am. I'm in my mid-sixties, and I went for a fantastically thick, silver-and-white Helen Mirren bob. It's wonderful hair--and God knows, I paid through the nose for it, too--and it's also magic. Because since that day, people who knew DuVerre With The Sad Hair meet DuVerre-in-a-Wig and don't recognize me. I have changed one thing...and it turns to be the central, most powerful thing.

I wasn't surprised that the mail carrier, or the young woman who sells me fruit at the market, didn't make the connection; I'm just one of many customers in their day. But the guy who lives in the apartment two doors down from me saw me with my key in my own door and bellowed "EXCUSE ME! Do you KNOW DuVerre????" "Geoff, it's okay!" I said, "it's me!!!!" "She's not subletting her apartment!" he answered, "DuVerre would have told me!" "Geoff!" I said. At this point I was walking toward him. "Geoff! It's DuVerre, and I'm wearing a wig!" It was amazing to see his face change when the penny dropped. I should also mention that my own sister had a hard time finding me in a restaurant the first day I met her in the wig. I told her to look for the colour, not for me, but she still couldn't pick me out. Now, after a year, my friends keep saying that they never noticed that my eyes were a certain colour or shape, that I seem to have cheekbones for the first time, am I using Botox or what have you. But nothing about me has changed. Just my hair. But because of my hair, they now look at my face in a different way.

So yes, I believe that Elizabeth could eat pizza in a witchy goth wig just one table away from her employer, and be invisible at the same time. It is easily accomplished. E.G. I joined a line at the market right behind a guy who's a dreaded old friend of my dreaded ex-husband. I usually would have avoided him like the plague. Not now. I knew he wouldn't recognize me, even when he turned and handed me a plastic bag. And he didn't. 

[Umbelina]

Wonderful story DuVerre!

Elizabeth also changed her clothes, her makeup, and into heels, as well as her walk.  She also kept her face away from him, but I think you are right, she probably didn't even have to do that, at least not from feet away.

[Sarah 103]

On 4/20/2018 at 12:19 PM, margol29 said:

They should be grooming Henry for his part as a spy. He is old enough.

 

I think Henry is on their radar but they are waiting for something. I have no idea what the something is 

On 4/20/2018 at 1:47 PM, icemiser69 said:

Didn't Martha adopt a child at one point?  I do want to see Martha, but only if it leads to her eventual happiness. 

Martha could be an intersting version of be careful what you wish for. She really wanted a child and now she has one. I have no idea what her life is like, but I wouldn't mind on more check in to see what her life is like with a young daughter. 

On 4/20/2018 at 2:38 PM, sistermagpie said:

I am so hoping they'll do something with this, maybe at Thanksgiving with Henry at home. Because it's so stark. It's undermined by the fact that they showed Henry so little that many people saw a phantom story where Henry was supposed to be neglected by both his parents his whole life, but that wasn't intentional. This is more intentional.

 

22 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I really want Henry to stay away as much as possible.  He seems to pick up on things pretty quick.  At least that was the case an episode or two ago when he was talking to his dad on the phone.  If he can pick up on the emotions of his father without seeing his face, and just by the tone of his voice, then he is going to have no problem reading Paige's non-poker face during Thanksgiving dinner.

Henry was never too interested in his parents. He thought Paige was the favorite and had no idea why. I think a week home with his family and he would come very close to figuring out that something is very wrong and it involves Paige. 

22 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

I was hoping they would talk more about the general's death in the show.  Is the bullet in his skull, if not where is it?  Where is a 1980s version of a CSI type unit when you need them?   

Now I'm picturing a parallel show to this one about the police/other law enforcement dealing with all of Philip and Elizabeth's murders. 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, duVerre said:

I joined a line at the market right behind a guy who's a dreaded old friend of my dreaded ex-husband. I usually would have avoided him like the plague. Not now. I knew he wouldn't recognize me, even when he turned and handed me a plastic bag. And he didn't. 

LOL. Awesome!

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, Ina123 said:

On 4/20/2018 at 7:51 AM, Clanstarling said:

I took typing, because I knew I was going to be a lit major and would be typing papers. But I didn't take shorthand, which was big in the day, so that I wouldn't go the "easy" route to being a secretary. Which I didn't, worked in tech for most of my adult life (and still do). Though ten years ago I helped out a friend by replacing his secretary for a while - and was totally humbled by how hard the job really was.

 

Just to be clear, I didn't mean it was an easy job. I meant they were usually available and pretty easy to get if your WPM were decent. 

Oh, I didn't think you did. I didn't either. It was more that it was the easy path to take. My realization, however, of just how difficult the job was, was pretty humbling nonetheless.

[shksabelle]

Assuming DOD, CIA, and the State Department has mail robots a la the FBI, what other jobs would they have that Paige would be qualified for?

[qtpye]

12 hours ago, shksabelle said:

Assuming DOD, CIA, and the State Department has mail robots a la the FBI, what other jobs would they have that Paige would be qualified for?

I am sure if they go through with this storyline, Paige will become amazing in every way. We will find out that she the strongest student in her college, despite all the nights waiting in a car for her mother in a stupid hat and glasses. If she goes into the FBI and Stan is her mentor, she will graduate top of her class in Quantico and become another Clarisse Starling. Hopefully, the writers are a little better than this.

22 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

On 4/20/2018 at 12:19 PM, margol29 said:

They should be grooming Henry for his part as a spy. He is old enough.

 

I think Henry is on their radar but they are waiting for something. I have no idea what the something is 

Maybe waiting for a time when he is very frustrated and disappointed with his parents, so they can have a very attractive woman in her twenties approach him with an offer that he will find very intriguing? Perhaps like when his father tells him that they can no longer afford the boarding school that he adores and his mother never even talks to him anymore and seems to not even care that he exists?

[Dowel Jones]

I would think that they would appeal to his sense of adventure and video games and hockey.  Have another hockey player/agent befriend him, get him interested in some low level hacking or other computer activity, and then lead him into something illegal.  They could then hold that over him and get him to do ever more illegal stuff like spying.  Your basic honeytrap.

[Milburn Stone]

On 4/19/2018 at 1:21 AM, Umbelina said:

I think  the KGB would expect Philip to make a decent living out of the set up they gave them...

So, in other words, the KGB would expect capitalism to work? ;)

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

So, in other words, the KGB would expect capitalism to work? ;)

With all the money they put into it?  I'm pretty sure they would expect Philip to be intelligent enough to do his job.

[Milburn Stone]

38 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

With all the money they put into it?  I'm pretty sure they would expect Philip to be intelligent enough to do his job.

This gets at the question of what we're meant to believe about the travel agency. If it has not been a going concern (pre-expansion), but rather has been subsisting on a continuous diet of cash from The Centre, then Philip should find no problem in telling The Centre that he needs more cash post-expansion to keep from going under. (In fact, in this scenario, I would expect he'd have had their prior approval for the expansion.) After all, he still works for them (as witness the Kimmie scene), is still the husband of one of their top agents and the father of an agent-to-be, and still needs the cover for himself and his entire family. On the other hand, if Philip after startup has been expected on his own to keep the business healthy in a competitive environment, with The Centre taking a strictly laissez-faire approach, that is an implicit endorsement from them that capitalism works.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[SusanSunflower]

Because this is TV land, it's impossible to parse just how well the travel agency has ever been doing since as far as I can tell they have always lived far beyond the means of any mom-and-pop small business I've known and don't recall money ever being an issue ... to go to Disneyland or buy a new (fancy) car or in anticipation of Paige going to college (all big ticket items) ... see also the impromptu trip to see Elizabeth's mother.  I assume the Centre subsidizes a fair amount (not least so there are stable capable employees to keep the joint running when Philip and Elizabeth are out of town (suddenly) on assignment or pulling a lot of night work.  Actually I thought briefly that having Phillip a full-time on-site manager would have raised some serious tensions with the otherwise largely autonomous staff (which also makes me wonder why -- with Phillip now full time, they needed some new hires (whatever).   (I've also wondered why Paige and/or Henry hasn't been enlisted to learn the business as a part-time job in high school, etc. 

[qtpye]

5 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Because this is TV land, it's impossible to parse just how well the travel agency has ever been doing since as far as I can tell they have always lived far beyond the means of any mom-and-pop small business I've known and don't recall money ever being an issue ... to go to Disneyland or buy a new (fancy) car or in anticipation of Paige going to college (all big ticket items) ... see also the impromptu trip to see Elizabeth's mother.  I assume the Centre subsidizes a fair amount (not least so there are stable capable employees to keep the joint running when Philip and Elizabeth are out of town (suddenly) on assignment or pulling a lot of night work.  Actually I thought briefly that having Phillip a full-time on-site manager would have raised some serious tensions with the otherwise largely autonomous staff (which also makes me wonder why -- with Phillip now full time, they needed some new hires (whatever).   (I've also wondered why Paige and/or Henry hasn't been enlisted to learn the business as a part-time job in high school, etc. 

The travel agency storyline is nothing more than to inject some "Capitalism is hard, too" storyline, perhaps to try to make the story seem a little less "Communism is evil."

If Phillip is still working and E is obviously doing a thousand jobs at once, why doesn't Phillip just go to the Centre for money? They need the travel agency as the perfect cover for their lifestyles, so it would make sense. Also, keeping Henry in boarding school would also be a good idea for various reasons.

[Umbelina]

They wouldn't want the kids there, because it would require even more bullshit explanations about them going off on missions.  That's the one they use most at home too "have to go into the office, the quarterly reports weren't filed" when really they are off on a KGB mission.

Either could be true, the KGB subsidizing them on a continuing basis, or the KGB giving them funds to start or buy a business, a house, cars, the furniture, the clothing, insurance, etc. and then expecting them to make the rest of their living by working.  I think the latter is true, or we would have seen something in all these years about incoming funds.

That's really only "capitalism" if you talk about a rich kid, born to wealthy parents, that could purchase all of that and gift it to their child for a "start in nearly upper middle class life."

The KGB didn't send them to the USA penniless and tell them to be successful capitalists.  The KGB set them UP as successful capitalists, and, I think, expected them to be able to work hard enough to support themselves from that very big head start on.  I seriously doubt the KGB had anything else to do with the Travel Agency, or their finances, other than everything needed to continue their various spy operations.  For example, wigs, make up, disguises, weapons, communications equipment, bugs, high powered night vision, numerous vehicles, all of that crap is left for them in their safe house/changing place by the Residentura.

12 minutes ago, qtpye said:

The travel agency storyline is nothing more than to inject some "Capitalism is hard, too" storyline, perhaps to try to make the story seem a little less "Communism is evil."

If Phillip is still working and E is obviously doing a thousand jobs at once, why doesn't Phillip just go to the Centre for money? They need the travel agency as the perfect cover for their lifestyles, so it would make sense. Also, keeping Henry in boarding school would also be a good idea for various reasons.

I think it's more that "life isn't easy either way" and for Philip, that little reminder that although this seems like heaven now, it's not easy or perfect after all.

I don't think Philip even wants to bring up Henry's NAME to the KGB, let alone that he's now perfectly placed to turn into a second generation spy.  If he asked them for money?  It opens doors he wants shut and locked with a few hundred locks.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Actually I thought briefly that having Phillip a full-time on-site manager would have raised some serious tensions with the otherwise largely autonomous staff (which also makes me wonder why -- with Phillip now full time, they needed some new hires (whatever).   (I've also wondered why Paige and/or Henry hasn't been enlisted to learn the business as a part-time job in high school, etc. 

The showrunners apparently said recently that Philip has always worked full time at the travel agency and did his spying at night. (Nice perk for Elizabeth there that he pulls double shifts and she doesn't.)

From what I can gather, it seems the travel agency has indeed always been a legit business that made money--keeping in mind that on TV any job is often to support any lifestyle, even if the two obviously don't match up at all. Now the idea is supposed to be that Philip continued working at the agency and it did very well with his full attention, enough that he felt he should expand it according to the rules of American business, and now he's learning that this was a bad idea.

At the same time, the boarding school that was last season so eager for Henry that Philip couldn't use money as an excuse to keep him home (the scholarship means they don't need to even talk about money) is an indulgence Philip's desperate to give him even though it's for rich people and not middle class schmoes like him. So Philip isn't getting enough money from the Centre even though he actually should very much still be on the payroll, being the person providing fairly regular access to secret tapes of the Head of the CIA Soviet Department. He and Henry are representing the American life now, so money matters to them in ways it doesn't matter to Elizabeth with her designer wardrobe and Paige with her college tuition and apartment that she uses during the rare times she's not with her mother.

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They wouldn't want the kids there, because it would require even more bullshit explanations about them going off on missions.  That's the one they use most at home too "have to go into the office, the quarterly reports weren't filed" when really they are off on a KGB mission.

Either could be true, the KGB subsidizing them on a continuing basis, or the KGB giving them funds to start or buy a business, a house, cars, the furniture, the clothing, insurance, etc. and then expecting them to make the rest of their living by working.  I think the latter is true, or we would have seen something in all these years about incoming funds.

That's really only "capitalism" if you talk about a rich kid, born to wealthy parents, that could purchase all of that and gift it to their child for a "start in nearly upper middle class life."

The KGB didn't send them to the USA penniless and tell them to be successful capitalists.  The KGB set them UP as successful capitalists, and, I think, expected them to be able to work hard enough to support themselves from that very big head start on.  I seriously doubt the KGB had anything else to do with the Travel Agency, or their finances, other than everything needed to continue their various spy operations.  For example, wigs, make up, disguises, weapons, communications equipment, bugs, high powered night vision, numerous vehicles, all of that crap is left for them in their safe house/changing place by the Residentura.

I think it's more that "life isn't easy either way" and for Philip, that little reminder that although this seems like heaven now, it's not easy or perfect after all.

I don't think Philip even wants to bring up Henry's NAME to the KGB, let alone that he's now perfectly placed to turn into a second generation spy.  If he asked them for money?  It opens doors he wants shut and locked with a few hundred locks.

 

 

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The showrunners apparently said recently that Philip has always worked full time at the travel agency and did his spying at night. (Nice perk for Elizabeth there that he pulls double shifts and she doesn't.)

From what I can gather, it seems the travel agency has indeed always been a legit business that made money--keeping in mind that on TV any job is often to support any lifestyle, even if the two obviously don't match up at all. Now the idea is supposed to be that Philip continued working at the agency and it did very well with his full attention, enough that he felt he should expand it according to the rules of American business, and now he's learning that this was a bad idea.

At the same time, the boarding school that was last season so eager for Henry that Philip couldn't use money as an excuse to keep him home (the scholarship means they don't need to even talk about money) is an indulgence Philip's desperate to give him even though it's for rich people and not middle class schmoes like him. So Philip isn't getting enough money from the Centre even though he actually should very much still be on the payroll, being the person providing fairly regular access to secret tapes of the Head of the CIA Soviet Department. He and Henry are representing the American life now, so money matters to them in ways it doesn't matter to Elizabeth with her designer wardrobe and Paige with her college tuition and apartment that she uses during the rare times she's not with her mother.

However, pulling Henry out of boarding school is the perfect time to approach him (unknown to P and E) to be a second generation illegal. Henry did not seem to have a whole lot of love for his for his father's profession (not knowing his father's true profession) and probably always had loftier goals for himself. He probably rubbed shoulders with the rich and elite and really felt like one of them. Phillip's phone call has reminded him that even though he leads a very comfortable life, at the end of the day he is still middle class and does not have a father living off a trust fund, who has to actually work for a living. Add to this a mother who seems to not even care about him anymore and it could be a recipe for another disillusioned American kid going to the other side.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

However, pulling Henry out of boarding school is the perfect time to approach him (unknown to P and E) to be a second generation illegal. Henry did not seem to have a whole lot of love for his for his father's profession (not knowing his father's true profession) and probably always had loftier goals for himself. He probably rubbed shoulders with the rich and elite and really felt like one of them. Phillip's phone call has reminded him that even though he leads a very comfortable life, at the end of the day he is still middle class and does not have a father living off a trust fund, who has to actually work for a living. Add to this a mother who seems to not even care about him anymore and it could be a recipe for another disillusioned American kid going to the other side.

But tbf, it would be a big stretch for a normal, intelligent American kid to decide that his dad no longer being able to afford his fancy prep school means the USSR has the right idea. Henry isn't shut out from loftier goals even if he has to leave. The ivy leagues are still very much in his sights--that's part of what's so silly about the storyline for so many of us. The school would totally want him there and has enough money to keep him. It would make far more sense given what we've seen of Henry, imo, for him to continue using the American system that's been brilliant to him so far to be a success in other ways even if he's slightly derailed now. It wouldn't give him any reason to be attracted to the Soviet Union.

Unless he was spying strictly for money, but given what we've seen of Henry's morals that wouldn't make much sense to me. He's clearly willing to break rules to get what he wants, but only when it doesn't offend his personal morals, which I think treason definitely would. (Henry's always been shown thinking through his own morals, not learning them from someone else.) It would be throwing his life away for a little bump in the road. There are plenty of American-style shady ways for him to try to get back in with the elite. The show spent years laying the groundwork for Paige to be a traitor and even there they've glossed over a lot of it.

More importantly, Paige's recruitment is all about her parents. If they're not using the parents (iow, Philip) to recruit Henry he's just a random American kid no more likely to betray his country than anyone else. Realistically, Elizabeth trying to recruit Henry ought to be a disaster and Philip would probably react to any orders in that direction by warning him off it instead.  Going at him without his parents would be a replay of Jared (if they tell him the truth behind his parents back) or probably just a phone call to Stan.

[Clanstarling]

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The showrunners apparently said recently that Philip has always worked full time at the travel agency and did his spying at night. (Nice perk for Elizabeth there that he pulls double shifts and she doesn't.)

From what I can gather, it seems the travel agency has indeed always been a legit business that made money--keeping in mind that on TV any job is often to support any lifestyle, even if the two obviously don't match up at all. Now the idea is supposed to be that Philip continued working at the agency and it did very well with his full attention, enough that he felt he should expand it according to the rules of American business, and now he's learning that this was a bad idea.

At the same time, the boarding school that was last season so eager for Henry that Philip couldn't use money as an excuse to keep him home (the scholarship means they don't need to even talk about money) is an indulgence Philip's desperate to give him even though it's for rich people and not middle class schmoes like him. So Philip isn't getting enough money from the Centre even though he actually should very much still be on the payroll, being the person providing fairly regular access to secret tapes of the Head of the CIA Soviet Department. He and Henry are representing the American life now, so money matters to them in ways it doesn't matter to Elizabeth with her designer wardrobe and Paige with her college tuition and apartment that she uses during the rare times she's not with her mother.

IIRC, Philip was against the idea of the boarding school, while Elizabeth was okay with the idea. I remember being pretty puzzled by their reactions. Though it may just have been Philip was in the mode of thinking they'd have to bug out fast, and wanted his family near at had.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

IIRC, Philip was against the idea of the boarding school, while Elizabeth was okay with the idea. I remember being pretty puzzled by their reactions. Though it may just have been Philip was in the mode of thinking they'd have to bug out fast, and wanted his family near at had.

I was completely confused by Elizabeth's reaction. Philip's made sense to me. Iirc, it wasn't even just bugging out it was that he didn't want to be separated from him like the Morozov dad was going to be separated from his family. 

Also, this might have been grasping at straws, but I wondered if they weren't trying to draw some parallel between Philip being invited to KGB school (as the smartest kid in his school in Siberia) with Henry being whisked away to this "fancy orphanage." It seemed to be just a personal blow to have his kid leave home--maybe he thought that meant he'd never see him again. There were little things to tie together there, but since they never came out and gave us any sort of a story or explanation I was just left hanging.

Elizabeth, otoh, I couldn't understand. She seemed to just think it was funny that the school was like a country club and didn't see an issue with Henry being gone for months at a time. This from the woman who said she'd rather have Paige be a drug addict than go to Jesus camp for 3 months of indoctrination. Somehow she didn't see how that kind of school is also anti-Soviet and it was like she'd never thought of the idea of trying to give the kid her values.

[SusanSunflower]

I think Philip said he didn't want Henry to "leave home" so soon... that he wanted to be able to spend more time with him, father/son fashion, before he went left home or went off to college..  I don't recall money or relative affluence being mentioned as an issue, just that Philip wasn't ready for Henry to prematurely leave home. .... (there was, of course, no mention of Paige being ~3 years older ... and no mention of her college plans until this year, a vague as they are now. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, SusanSunflower said:

I think Philip said he didn't want Henry to "leave home" so soon... that he wanted to be able to spend more time with him, father/son fashion, before he went left home or went off to college..  I don't recall money or relative affluence being mentioned as an issue, just that Philip wasn't ready for Henry to prematurely leave home. .... (there was, of course, no mention of Paige being ~3 years older ... and no mention of her college plans until this year, a vague as they are now. 

Philip definitely seemed only motivated by not wanting him to leave home--his "fancy orphanage" comment I thought was more about "orphanage" than fancy, although he noted it and so did Elizabeth, calling it a "country club." I suppose he maybe have put in ththe effort to make sure he didn't lose Henry when  he did go.

Pastor Tim did mention telling Paige to make lists of colleges where she wanted to go and she said she was "Thinking about George Washington..." So that was as much as we got--maybe we should assume that's where she went. At the time I remember thinking that the school she mentioned was close to home while Henry was off to New Hampshire at 13/14.

[SusanSunflower]

I would have thought Stan and Phillip would have had many "how you gonna pay for your kids' college" conversation over the course of the years ... because they're both the sort of well-off middle class fathers would have taken "financial planning" as part of their dad duties ... not very likely to do nothing and "hope for the best" ... 

[scrb]

On 4/19/2018 at 12:08 PM, SusanSunflower said:

It's also sort of cowardly of the show to have Paige apparently honeypotting secretly as a matter of her own "choice"  

Paige shouldn't break the news to her parents until she has some valuable intel from it:

 

Paige:  Mom, Dad, I got useful intel!

(Elizabeth and Philip look at each other with quizzical expressions)

Philip:  How did you get this intel honey?

Paige:  I sucked his cock!