S05.E14: The Devil Complex

[Froippi]

Am I the only one that feels like they are asking way to much of Fitz with his brain I mean they wanted a solution for the Rift he gave them one not the way they wanted it but it was a solution 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Froippi

[tessaray]

Well, that was... dark. 

It's weird but I kind of feel like that if they actually prevent the world from being ripped apart, Daisy might forgive Fitz more readily than we think. Because Quake is who she is and running from/denying that because she believes the "Destroyer of Worlds" thing is hurting her in a different way.  (Not that it justifies it - at all.)

For once, Deke didn't annoy me.  And I'm glad Jemma's got that sliver of hope now.  

[LeisureTime]

So, I was not the biggest fan of the Framework, mostly because none of it was real, and one of my fears in that season was that we were going to get a whole lot of "BUT I was a monster!!  I AM A MONSTER!!!!!" from Fitz. And I just couldn't buy that, because Fitz and Framework Fitz were different people born from different life experiences. But I like this a little bit more. I think because it is focusing less on what Fitz did in there and more on the potential he has to be that ruthless. And that it's also being played as sort of a mental break I think really helps.

Also? I flat-out loved the way Iain De Caesteker  reverted back to those season two hand motions and whatnot. And I still didn't catch onto Fight Club Fitz until Daisy was on the table and asked who he was talking to, so kudos to the show.

[thuganomics85]

Good old, Agents of Shield!  Pulling the classic "Oh, y'all enjoy watching Fitz and Simmons be together and be happy?  Well, we're not just going fuck all of that up, we're going to take other relationships and characters, and fucked them all up too!  Thanos ain't got shit on us, fuckers!"

I'm amazed I managed to remain unspoiled for this one, but I totally fell for it.  I just thought Dr. Leopard/Framework Fitz was just another anomaly, and was enjoying the idea of the anomalies actually gaining the intelligence of the "fears" as well.  But, nope, it was something much more insane.  It was the real Fitz, who I guess had some kind of mental breakdown and became Framework Fitz.  But wait, there is more!  He recovers at the last minute, but realizes that this is the only way to stop the anomalies, so he ends up giving Daisy her powers back against her will.  Yep, there is no way around that.  I understand his reasons and he might possibly be in the right at the end, but he basically performed surgery against her will.  No way I can see their relationship coming back from that.  Daisy's going to be all kinds of messed up.  Brutal stuff.  And, once again, Iain De Caestecker just brought it all home.  It really is amazing how he can just flip between these various characters, and be funny and charming one moment, cold and scary the next, and then conflicted and guilt-ridden at the end.

Of course, as usual, Elizabeth Henstridge was right behind him.  Poor Simmons: I don't know what she is going to do now.  She still clearly loves him and finding out the truth about Deke will no doubt change things, but while she said those vows and they might include "until death do us part", no one expects that to include "My husband went nuts, turned into the psycho doctor from the days he was stuck inside a computer program, and then performed surgery on my best friend against her will" in it.

On a lighter note, I'm glad that Mack and Yo-Yo are realistically still having a bumpy road in her recovery and supporting her, but there is still no doubt that they care for one another.  Yay, you two!

Oh, and while all of this is going on, basically Coulson and Melinda find out that a) Hale is actually working for Hydra, and b) good old Anton the Russian is back.  And, of course, Coulson goes with them even though he clearly knows this is a trap, because that's just how Coulson rolls!  Meanwhile, we the audience see that Hale is working with some alien (Kree?) played by the always awesome Peter Mensah.  Fun times ahead!

Damn, Agents of Shield!  Every time I think I have you figured out, you find some way to surprise me!  And that has become quite rare for any show I watch, so that alone is why I will always look forward to you each week.

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, teenj12 said:

Wow, no words for what Fitz did. I just wish we got more focus on Daisy's thought process after it happened, but her expressions said everything we needed to know about the trauma that was just inflicted on her. The show's been hinting for a long time about Fitz's dark side (even before the Framework), so can I just say I'm really not surprised? Just the grittiness of him yanking the device out of Daisy's brain while she's tied up and helpless was... disturbing. 

Yes but they are also hinting strongly that it is necessary ( that Fitz gave into his dark side because his lighter half won’t do what needs to be done) so it may end up indirectly saving the situation. 

I predict it creates a fissure in the group and Daisy may never fully trust him even if she eventually accepts it.

[rmontro]

7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yes but they are also hinting strongly that it is necessary ( that Fitz gave into his dark side because his lighter half won’t do what needs to be done) so it may end up indirectly saving the situation. 

It also makes me wonder how much Fitz was relying on his darker side when he was portraying that super rich space guy when he was trying to save them from the Kree in the future?

[shrewd.buddha]

12 hours ago, CyberJawa1986 said:

Am I the only one thinking nobody noticed a missing whoever that the Monster Spaceman killed in the beginning?

It stood out to me, also. 
The other odd thing was when Fitz was discussing what he would wish for if the dimensional tear was a gateway to a wish fulfillment dimension : he would wish for an extra day between Saturday and Sunday. That just seemed like a writer trying to be clever, because, really, when was there a time any of the AoS team experienced anything close to a regular work week? It reminded me of Dowager Countess of Grantham of Dowton Abbey asking "What is a weekend?" (because people like her don't understand a work week) 
Do the core team members  consider what they are endlessly doing day and night to even be a job? Is there a 401K or dental plan? 
I thought it was an example of the writers not really thinking about the characters as real people or living in real world situations. Fitz and Simmons got married - but will they ever have a home to go to? For that matter, where is everyone eating and sleeping? It is those smaller details that make characters and shows feel grounded (despite the mandate of 24-7 action). 

Edited March 25, 2018 by shrewd.buddha

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

It stood out to me, also. 
The other odd thing was when Fitz was discussing what he would wish for if the dimensional tear was a gateway to a wish fulfillment dimension : he would wish for an extra day between Saturday and Sunday. That just seemed like a writer trying to be clever, because, really, when was there a time any of the AoS team experienced anything close to a regular work week? It reminded me of Dowager Countess of Grantham of Dowton Abbey asking "What is a weekend?" (because people like her don't understand a work week) 
Do the core team members  consider what they are endlessly doing day and night to even be a job? Is there a 401K or dental plan? 
I thought it was an example of the writers not really thinking about the characters as real people or living in real world situations. Fitz and Simmons got married - but will they ever have a home to go to? For that matter, where is everyone eating and sleeping? It is those smaller details that make characters and shows feel grounded (despite the mandate of 24-7 action). 

Well back when Simmons was undercover in Hydra she went to an apartment and latter had moved in with Fitz. Since Daisy and Ghostrider have been brought in everybody has been on lock down in some former SHIELD/SSR base that the government didn't snatch after the Hydra emergence in The Winter Soldier 

[Lobsel Vith]

10 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

I really want to watch the version of the show you're watching where the team have apparently kept Deke around just because they like him and think he's a swell guy.

Considering Deke is only there because he's a FitzSimmons Easter Egg since there's no actual reason the team took him along in the first place - and there's no reason why the characters completely forgot about their desire to kill him from one episode to the next - means that the show handwaved what he did. It's the reason why no one currently holds what he did against him now (presumably since characters bringing up his slaver past might impact how some viewers see him now). And since Fitz was instantly forgiven for what he did in the Framework, it's hard for me not to see a pattern of this show having characters cross moral lines only to give up on addressing it in any meaningful way. What Fitz did in this episode was horrible, but we already had Simmons pacifying him afterwards, even when he was justifying what he did. I have no real confidence this show will actually have meaningful ramifications for Fitz crossing the line.

[tessaray]

I don't think Fitz was instantly forgiven for what happened in the Framework - they went from that straight into the future insanity, with no time for them to really process.  Fitz actually had more time after the team disappeared for his mental state to become worse.  Since they've been back they've been focused on other crises.  As for Jemma, she's trying to make sense of it, not handwaving it but obviously a mental break makes it more complicated.  "In sickness and in health" and all that. She can't just walk away.  

[call me ishmael]

Could someone remind me if they explained the logic of “Coulson must die if the planet is to be saved”?  I can’t remember and it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

[Froippi]

25 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I don't think Fitz was instantly forgiven for what happened in the Framework - they went from that straight into the future insanity, with no time for them to really process.  Fitz actually had more time after the team disappeared for his mental state to become worse.  Since they've been back they've been focused on other crises.  As for Jemma, she's trying to make sense of it, not handwaving it but obviously a mental break makes it more complicated.  "In sickness and in health" and all that. She can't just walk away.  

I think it runs deeper than that remember after season 1 she ran away to Hydra instead of trying to help now if she abandons him now it makes look worse than what happen after season 1

10 minutes ago, call me ishmael said:

Could someone remind me if they explained the logic of “Coulson must die if the planet is to be saved”?  I can’t remember and it doesn’t make a lot of sense.

all I know is Future Yoyo thought this could have been the reason for the destruction but her thoughts is all over the place in the future you were never for sure if that was the real reason

[Froippi]

I really think the worst part of all this is the fan base might not ever forgive Fitz they may think this is to Dark to overcome

Edited March 25, 2018 by Froippi

[VCRTracking]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Considering Deke is only there because he's a FitzSimmons Easter Egg since there's no actual reason the team took him along in the first place - and there's no reason why the characters completely forgot about their desire to kill him from one episode to the next - means that the show handwaved what he did. It's the reason why no one currently holds what he did against him now (presumably since characters bringing up his slaver past might impact how some viewers see him now). And since Fitz was instantly forgiven for what he did in the Framework, it's hard for me not to see a pattern of this show having characters cross moral lines only to give up on addressing it in any meaningful way. What Fitz did in this episode was horrible, but we already had Simmons pacifying him afterwards, even when he was justifying what he did. I have no real confidence this show will actually have meaningful ramifications for Fitz crossing the line.

Coulson and May punching him and Fitz wanting to cut his throat and the characters barely tolerating him now aren't enough for you but it is for most viewers. The fact that he didn't do anything else shitty is why they put up with him. They didn't "take him along" he somehow ended up back in time instead of exploding along with Enoch. 

Jemma just married Fitz and now she sees he's having a mental breakdown. She's trying to  deal with this. He didn't give up when she was trapped across a universe, she's not going to give up on him now.

I get hating characters because they seem to get "special treatment" by shows, I see that a lot in these kinds of forums, but I'm tired of arguing about it in Deke's case, because I am just not that angry about him. I've defended Daisy back in the beginning of the show on the old TWOP boards when many others hated her and thought she was a "Mary Sue". I just don't want to endlessly have a debate about Deke.

Edited March 25, 2018 by VCRTracking

[SnoGirl]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yes but they are also hinting strongly that it is necessary ( that Fitz gave into his dark side because his lighter half won’t do what needs to be done) so it may end up indirectly saving the situation. 

I predict it creates a fissure in the group and Daisy may never fully trust him even if she eventually accepts it.

This is really bumming me out because Daisy and Fitz have always had this accepting friendship with each other. Fitz accepted Skye day one on the Zephr, Fitz accepted Daisy after her change to Quake, and Daisy accepted Fitz after the Framework. They’ve always been there for each other....ironically, the only time Daisy struggled with Fitz was after his brain injury, and now that brain injury is rearing it’s power back over Fitz.

I thought it was interesting that Fitz struggled with words when talking to Leopold. I wonder what version of Fitz/Leopold we’ll see in the future. Think we’ll go back to “struggle to find words Fitz” or a mix of “light/darkside Fitz?” How many episodes are left this season? If this is the last season, I’m going to be crushed if this is how Fitz goes out.

Is it too soon to bring up the Star Wars parrallels again? Because Fitz definitely went darkside. 

[Gothish520]

17 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

Coulson and May punching him and Fitz wanting to cut his throat and the characters barely tolerating him now aren't enough for you but it is for most viewers. The fact that he didn't do anything else shitty is why they put up with him. They didn't "take him along" he somehow ended up back in time instead of exploding along with Enoch. 

Jemma just married Fitz and now she sees he's having a mental breakdown. She's trying to  deal with this. He didn't give up when she was trapped across a universe, she's not going to give up on him now.

I get hating characters because they seem to get "special treatment" by shows, I see that a lot in these kinds of forums, but I'm tired of arguing about it in Deke's case, because I am just not that angry about him. I've defended Daisy back in the beginning of the show on the old TWOP boards when many others hated her and thought she was a "Mary Sue". I just don't want to endlessly have a debate about Deke.

Agree. I don't see anyone being warm and fuzzy with Deke, in fact everyone is still pretty cold to him. They are trying to save the world not to mention their own arses, it's not like they have all this time to keep rehashing their feelings. I think they are tolerating him because he has been and continues to be helpful, he's actually done a lot to help them since first turning in Daisy. He has lived through things they can only imagine, they are using his knowledge as well as having another body to get things done. 

As for Fitz, this is rough stuff but I feel like he did what had to be done. Daisy needed to get her powers back. But there is a long dark road ahead for all of the characters.

[Froippi]

what Fitz did might not even be the darkest thing we see this season who to say the others might not do something Darker somewhere down the road

[tessaray]

3 hours ago, Froippi said:

I really think the worst part of all this is the fan base might not ever forgive Fitz they may think this is to Dark to overcome

It may be too much for Fitz/FitzSimmons fans but as storytelling goes, it's kind of riveting. IDC has been great. If by the end of the series Fitz ends up truly evil (not cartoon Grant Ward evil), I'll be disappointed that Leo and Jemma didn't get a HEA but I won't be disappointed by the way the writers have evolved the characters. 

[Ceindreadh]

4 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Considering Deke is only there because he's a FitzSimmons Easter Egg since there's no actual reason the team took him along in the first place - and there's no reason why the characters completely forgot about their desire to kill him from one episode to the next - means that the show handwaved what he did. It's the reason why no one currently holds what he did against him now (presumably since characters bringing up his slaver past might impact how some viewers see him now). And since Fitz was instantly forgiven for what he did in the Framework, it's hard for me not to see a pattern of this show having characters cross moral lines only to give up on addressing it in any meaningful way. What Fitz did in this episode was horrible, but we already had Simmons pacifying him afterwards, even when he was justifying what he did. I have no real confidence this show will actually have meaningful ramifications for Fitz crossing the line.

Deke ended up in the present day by accident, because he was trying to help the team leave the future. 

Whatever he's done in the past (future), the team can't exactly abandon him in a place where he has no contacts, no money, no identity.

For better or worse, he's SHIELD's responsibility and all they really can do with him is give him shelter and make use of any skills or knowledge he has. 

[paigow]

Deke is a twisted version of Kyle Reese...sent from the future to be his own father...maybe Daisy is Sarah Connor, or maybe it is Piper or Ruby... whoever he impregnates will give birth to the man that hooks up with FitzSimmons 2.0 in the dystopian future.

[Lobsel Vith]

8 hours ago, tessaray said:

It's weird but I kind of feel like that if they actually prevent the world from being ripped apart, Daisy might forgive Fitz more readily than we think. Because Quake is who she is and running from/denying that because she believes the "Destroyer of Worlds" thing is hurting her in a different way.  (Not that it justifies it - at all.)

Why would Daisy forgive Fitz - realistically speaking? Instead of simply talking to Daisy about the situation, he tortured the inhibitor right out of her, and she was in pain the entire time (if you've seen gifs of the scene, those moments are gruesome). It's a bit much to say that what Fitz did was right when he went about things in a horrible, and unnecessary, way.

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yes but they are also hinting strongly that it is necessary ( that Fitz gave into his dark side because his lighter half won’t do what needs to be done) so it may end up indirectly saving the situation.

Daisy using her powers to resolve the issue with the fissure is one thing - Fitz deciding to have a robot endanger Mack and Yo-yo, kidnapping Daisy, painfully removing the inhibitor in such a way that it "traumatized" her is another matter entirely.

[Raja]

I remember coming out of the Framework pod I for one was saying there is no way Fitz comes back from that without some major therapy. Well he never got it just a half year in jail as General Hale searched for his comrades and then into battle against the Kree. Well now he is in SHIELD jail at least treatment can start. How well he is by the finale is in question

[Froippi]

Its is odd how Jemma sorta of threw Fitz vows back at him not sure if that is how that scene was suppose to play out but that is how I took it

[Cirien]

53 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Why would Daisy forgive Fitz - realistically speaking? Instead of simply talking to Daisy about the situation, he tortured the inhibitor right out of her, and she was in pain the entire time (if you've seen gifs of the scene, those moments are gruesome). It's a bit much to say that what Fitz did was right when he went about things in a horrible, and unnecessary, way.

Daisy using her powers to resolve the issue with the fissure is one thing - Fitz deciding to have a robot endanger Mack and Yo-yo, kidnapping Daisy, painfully removing the inhibitor in such a way that it "traumatized" her is another matter entirely.

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting or even being BFF's with him. 

If she comes to a place where she goes "I get what you did and why you did it but I can't never trust you again and we're not friends or acquaintances but I'll work with you because the world is bigger than what you did to me" That would make sense 

[tessaray]

Just now, Cirien said:

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting or even being BFF's with him. 

If she comes to a place where she goes "I get what you did and why you did it but I can't never trust you again and we're not friends or acquaintances but I'll work with you because the world is bigger than what you did to me" That would make sense 

Yes, this is what I was (clumsily) trying to say in my original post.    

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, Cirien said:

Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting or even being BFF's with him. 

If she comes to a place where she goes "I get what you did and why you did it but I can't never trust you again and we're not friends or acquaintances but I'll work with you because the world is bigger than what you did to me" That would make sense 

One problem we have been seeing with Phil Coulson's leadership was that his team, the survivors of the Hydra emergence, became family. With a future Director Johnson this may be the first lesson, while she worked for surrogate mom and dad there will have to be a detachment.

[Froippi]

I do believe Deke said it best he always has the pressure of saving the world on his shoulders or something like I really think the pressure cause him to take this route not that its a excuse cause its not

 

lets not forget either how many times Daisy betray the team either heck I think she had Fitz by the neck in season 3 at one point when under Hive control

I also want to know how well Mack will take this betrayel since he needs Fitz to help with yoyo arms

[teenj12]

1 hour ago, Froippi said:

I do believe Deke said it best he always has the pressure of saving the world on his shoulders or something like I really think the pressure cause him to take this route not that its a excuse cause its not

 

lets not forget either how many times Daisy betray the team either heck I think she had Fitz by the neck in season 3 at one point when under Hive control

I also want to know how well Mack will take this betrayel since he needs Fitz to help with yoyo arms

Key words: "under Hive control". Not her own.

Edited March 26, 2018 by teenj12

[VCRTracking]

I forgot to say how also incredible Chloe Bennet was in the episode. The fear and confusion when she was strapped down felt so real as was the agony when Fitz pulled pulled out the inhibitor.

[NUguy514]

Well, the FitzSimmons stuff was brutal.  All the actors involved in that story were incredible, especially Iain and Elizabeth.  I was surprised by how touching I found the Jemma/Deke scene at the end.

But Jesus, Hydra, show?  Again?

[Froippi]

8 hours ago, teenj12 said:

Key words: "under Hive control". Not her own.

But same thing happen Daisy did not want forgiven so we will see 

[Lunula]

Totally got me on the Leopold vs. Fitz thing - good stuff.

However...if this dizziness and then throwing-up thing is the "Jemma is pregnant" reveal I'm going to be beyond annoyed. We have two scientists, beyond smart, facing a literal end-of-the-world situation who have known one other and been dating. They get married and all of sudden they forget how to use birth control? Or are we to assume that given all the crap they are currently facing and they just got married a second ago that they tried to get pregnant?

Either way, I just can't see Jemma being that...well...dumb. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Lunula

[Froippi]

51 minutes ago, Lunula said:

Totally got me on the Leopold vs. Fitz thing - good stuff.

However...if this dizziness and then throwing-up thing is the "Jemma is pregnant" reveal I'm going to be beyond annoyed. We have two scientists, beyond smart, facing a literal end-of-the-world situation who have known one other and been dating. They get married and all of sudden they forget how to use birth control? Or are we to assume that given all the crap they are currently facing and they just got married a second ago that they tried to get pregnant?

Either way, I just can't see Jemma being that...well...dumb. 

Maybe this is why I ignore the fact she could be pregnant to much other stuff going on to force this storyline plus they our way to smart for that

[Ceindreadh]

For such a smart guy, Fitz is a bit of an idiot.  If he really felt that using Daisy's powers was the only way to seal the rift he should have just told everybody that it was the best plan and let them guilt Daisy into having her powers restored.  He could have always promised to reinstall the inhibitor afterwards. 

[Cranberry]

Debate is completely fine, but please make your points without insulting other posters. Thanks!

[Lobsel Vith]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:16 PM, tessaray said:

I don't think Fitz was instantly forgiven for what happened in the Framework - they went from that straight into the future insanity, with no time for them to really process.  Fitz actually had more time after the team disappeared for his mental state to become worse.  Since they've been back they've been focused on other crises.  As for Jemma, she's trying to make sense of it, not handwaving it but obviously a mental break makes it more complicated.  "In sickness and in health" and all that. She can't just walk away.  

Daisy forgave Fitz for being tortured shortly after being brought out of the Framework. Simmons didn't hold it against Fitz that he shot her or tried to murder her; she was making sure he was okay at the diner. Mack wasn't angry at Fitz for losing his daughter for a second time when they reunited. Fitz was forgiven pretty immediately for what he did, as exemplified by the examples I cited; his mental state doesn't change that everyone pretty much forgave him for what he did.

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:52 PM, VCRTracking said:

Coulson and May punching him and Fitz wanting to cut his throat and the characters barely tolerating him now aren't enough for you but it is for most viewers. The fact that he didn't do anything else shitty is why they put up with him. They didn't "take him along" he somehow ended up back in time instead of exploding along with Enoch. 

Fitz and Simmons talking about murdering Deke in one episode, and in the next being completely okay with him, is an example of how the show handwaved Deke's actions. Daisy performing emotional support for Deke in the same episode is another example. He sold someone into slavery for money, and he never paid any price for his actions. Deke being brought along at all - when there was no reason for anyone to bring him, especially when Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons wanted him dead in that episode - highlights the very issue that I previously brought up.

As for "most viewers" - are you referencing the people who vilified Daisy to frame Deke as a hero for selling her into slavery? The same people who had no problem with Fitz pulling off a rescue attempt with no plan, but treat Daisy with contempt despite Kasius making it clear he might have killed Simmons had Abby failed her fight? The same kind of people who have vilified Daisy now because she said she would never forgive Fitz for torturing her for a second time? The kind of people who prioritized Ward over Daisy seasons ago, despite him threatening to rape her at one point? Trust me when I say that pointing to those kinds of viewers doesn't support your argument in the least.

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 4:19 PM, Ceindreadh said:

Deke ended up in the present day by accident, because he was trying to help the team leave the future. 

I'm not talking about Deke ending up in the present, I'm addressing Deke being brought along in the first place - which is what I was addressing in the post you replied to. That people need to fanwank reasons to explain why Deke was brought along in the Future Arc (because the show provides absolutely no reason at all within the narrative of the storyline) is the very issue that I'm addressing. There's no canon reason why Deke was brought along.

21 hours ago, Froippi said:

I do believe Deke said it best he always has the pressure of saving the world on his shoulders or something like I really think the pressure cause him to take this route not that its a excuse cause its not

Deke has flip-flopped on his reasons for selling Daisy into slavery (he's not the most trusthyworthy person), and I don't think that we should frame selling a person into slavery as something good. That Kasius was planning to wipe out the Lighthouse after he sold Daisy to the highest bidder should be sufficient to highlight that Deke was not in the right.

[Froippi]

11 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Daisy forgave Fitz for being tortured shortly after being brought out of the Framework. Simmons didn't hold it against Fitz that he shot her or tried to murder her; she was making sure he was okay at the diner. Mack wasn't angry at Fitz for losing his daughter for a second time when they reunited. Fitz was forgiven pretty immediately for what he did, as exemplified by the examples I cited; his mental state doesn't change that everyone pretty much forgave him for what he did.

Fitz and Simmons talking about murdering Deke in one episode, and in the next being completely okay with him, is an example of how the show handwaved Deke's actions. Daisy performing emotional support for Deke in the same episode is another example. He sold someone into slavery for money, and he never paid any price for his actions. Deke being brought along at all - when there was no reason for anyone to bring him, especially when Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons wanted him dead in that episode - highlights the very issue that I previously brought up.

As for "most viewers" - are you referencing the people who vilified Daisy to frame Deke as a hero for selling her into slavery? The same people who had no problem with Fitz pulling off a rescue attempt with no plan, but treat Daisy with contempt despite Kasius making it clear he might have killed Simmons had Abby failed her fight? The same kind of people who have vilified Daisy now because she said she would never forgive Fitz for torturing her for a second time? The kind of people who prioritized Ward over Daisy seasons ago, despite him threatening to rape her at one point? Trust me when I say that pointing to those kinds of viewers doesn't support your argument in the least.

I'm not talking about Deke ending up in the present, I'm addressing Deke being brought along in the first place - which is what I was addressing in the post you replied to. That people need to fanwank reasons to explain why Deke was brought along in the Future Arc (because the show provides absolutely no reason at all within the narrative of the storyline) is the very issue that I'm addressing. There's no canon reason why Deke was brought along.

Deke has flip-flopped on his reasons for selling Daisy into slavery (he's not the most trusthyworthy person), and I don't think that we should frame selling a person into slavery as something good. That Kasius was planning to wipe out the Lighthouse after he sold Daisy to the highest bidder should be sufficient to highlight that Deke was not in the right.

yea but I really don't think he has any reason to lie about his mom I understand what your saying but I also looking at why would Deke lie about his mother and cannot find one at this point

[Lobsel Vith]

25 minutes ago, Froippi said:

yea but I really don't think he has any reason to lie about his mom I understand what your saying but I also looking at why would Deke lie about his mother and cannot find one at this point

Deke working for Kasius, constructing the Framework and using it to help enforce the status quo, and selling Daisy into slavery for money are examples at how Deke has not been trying to 'save the world'. Actions speak louder than words.

[blugirlami21]

Great episode. The Fitz reveal was completely surprising and really well done. I like that the writers used an existing problem to remind of us of an old one. Fitz has been through a lot mentally the last couple of seasons with very little time or opportunity to address anything. 

His brain damage was never really fixed, the loss of Jenna, and the framework have all compounded to this outcome. 

I actually just did a rewatch of the show and I kind of don't think Fitz has done anything worse than Daisy or any of them has in the past. An argument can be made that Fitz is not in his right mind, which imo he isn't, just like Daisy wasn't when she was under Hive' s control. She did lots of things that she wouldn't do normally and she was forgiven. 

He didn't kill anybody and she needed her powers back to fix a major problem they were having. I also think she put them at a disadvantage by refusing to get inhibitor removed. 

Some hard choices are going to be made and will keep being made until they can change the future. 

The Deke thing is neither here nor there for me at this point. I like the character. Far more important things to be up in arms about. Ymmv.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Deke working for Kasius, constructing the Framework and using it to help enforce the status quo, and selling Daisy into slavery for money are examples at how Deke has not been trying to 'save the world'. Actions speak louder than words.

That was him in the first few episodes, yes. He wasn't a believer in this whole "these agents can save the world" mantra that he had been told on and on. He had to grow to learn that. His actions from the first few episodes are wrong in our perspective. Him taking that job from Kasius was the worst we've seen him, absolutely. Coulson locked him up when he found out (Deke had to escape on his own), he got punched several times, and Daisy did not say the words "I forgive you" at any point. But, taking a look at Deke's perspective, he was a very cynical person, growing up in a world built on survival. These strangers showed up, he found out that they were destined to save them, and he also found out Daisy was there. In his mind at that point, before knowing her, she was the one to destroy the world. That's all he's ever known. His world is not the same as our world. The world had already been destroyed for him; there was nothing to save. He had to learn to behave differently. And he's still working on it.

I look back to Robbie's arc last season. At the beginning, he attacked Daisy and knew what Ghost Rider was doing inside of him. He wasn't perfect either, nor was he saving anyone; in fact, he became a vigilante by killing people. No matter what these people are and what they've done, Robbie still allowed Ghost Rider to take over him to exact vengeance by torturing and killing people. But he learned to grow, especially with the help from Daisy, and I grew to really like Robbie. I don't like Deke as much as I liked Robbie. And yes, I am aware that both men are different and have gone through different things. But they have similar beginning arcs. And, at least neither are Ward. I think that's an important thing we can always take away. Deke and Robbie are both grey characters who have done bad things for selfish reasons, but they do still have a good heart deep down inside. They both have very troubling pasts because of the worlds they grew up in and the circumstances that led them down this road, but they also managed to make better choices after knowing the Agents, something that Ward never learned. 

But I do like Deke. I didn't at the beginning, but I grew to like him. I always liked Robbie, and I stopped liking Ward the moment he was revealed to be HYDRA. So I know different strokes for different folk, and all. 

[Froippi]

the more I think about the more I only really see Simmons forgiving FItz the whole for better and worse deal with marriage

[Lady Calypso]

1 minute ago, Froippi said:

the more I think about the more I only really see Simmons forgiving FItz the whole for better and worse deal with marriage

I think with them being married, it certainly makes things more complicated. Now, Jemma can't be as unforgiving with Fitz because they are married, so she does see him in a whole new light. They have a different relationship, so I do wonder how she'll handle Fitz going forward.

[Lobsel Vith]

1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:

That was him in the first few episodes, yes. He wasn't a believer in this whole "these agents can save the world" mantra that he had been told on and on. He had to grow to learn that. His actions from the first few episodes are wrong in our perspective. Him taking that job from Kasius was the worst we've seen him, absolutely.

Let's be frank here: slavery isn't one of those things that's defensible no matter what your societal norms are. It's inexcusable, and I find it frustrating when it's framed as something that is acceptable or understandable simply because of Deke's background (because it's not). That we've seen characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben only highlights that using his background doesn't work; Deke has no excuse. Deke also said he worked for Kasius, so selling Daisy wasn't the only thing he did for Kasius.

2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Coulson locked him up when he found out (Deke had to escape on his own), he got punched several times, and Daisy did not say the words "I forgive you" at any point. But, taking a look at Deke's perspective, he was a very cynical person, growing up in a world built on survival. These strangers showed up, he found out that they were destined to save them, and he also found out Daisy was there. In his mind at that point, before knowing her, she was the one to destroy the world. That's all he's ever known. His world is not the same as our world. The world had already been destroyed for him; there was nothing to save. He had to learn to behave differently. And he's still working on it.

Deke escaped on his own, but the team still brought Deke along, despite having no reason to trust him. And let me be clear on something: I have no sympathy for a slaver. I had to put up with Ward in the Framework, where Ward's victims were used to try and elicit sympathy for Ward (which was, quite frankly, a disgusting narrative choice).

There are people who will always be more sympathetic to characters like Ward, Deke, and now Fitz. You can look at the responses in a myriad of communities to see that. People said they hated Daisy for shooting Ward after he kidnapped her and brought her to Whitehall. There are people who said they hated Daisy for trying to save Simmons from Kasius, but Fitz tried to rescue her without a plan and people didn't mind. Deke is already being woobified by a number of people. There are people who said they hated Daisy for telling Fitz that she would never forgive him while he was torturing the inhibitor out of her. There's a very stark difference in how characters like Ward, Deke, and Fitz are treated in comparison to someone like Daisy.

Look at the past episode: Fitz tortured Daisy, but she's sidelined to focus on the FitzSimmons romance, with Simmons even saying that his actions are a "gray area" despite the fact that they aren't. Deke selling Daisy into slavery, and now Fitz's actions, are given a huge pass.

3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I look back to Robbie's arc last season. At the beginning, he attacked Daisy and knew what Ghost Rider was doing inside of him. He wasn't perfect either, nor was he saving anyone; in fact, he became a vigilante by killing people.

Let's not compare two superpowered people fighting each other over a misunderstanding (which is as old as the Golden Age of comics, and a trope that still pops up in modern comics) with someone selling a person into slavery. The comparison doesn't work for obvious reasons.

4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I don't like Deke as much as I liked Robbie. And yes, I am aware that both men are different and have gone through different things. But they have similar beginning arcs. And, at least neither are Ward.

Deke isn't much better than Ward.

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think that's an important thing we can always take away. Deke and Robbie are both grey characters who have done bad things for selfish reasons, but they do still have a good heart deep down inside. They both have very troubling pasts because of the worlds they grew up in and the circumstances that led them down this road, but they also managed to make better choices after knowing the Agents, something that Ward never learned. 

No - Robbie is a character who killed child rapists and white supremacists. He's an anti-hero in the vein of the Punisher. Deke is someone who engaged in slavery and helped a tyrant remain in power. There is a world of difference between the two. Deke isn't grey - slavery isn't a gray area.

[xtwheeler]

I'm struggling to understand why many seem to think Simmons couldn't currently be pregnant, give birth to a daughter who will, in about 40 years' time give birth to Deke. 40 isn't even a little bit out there in terms of maternal age. Heck, Elizabeth Hentstridge will turn 39 before "this" baby would be born. Women are currently having babies up to and into their 50's, so Deke's mother giving birth around 40, the same age her mother did, seems awfully unremarkable to me. 

[Lobsel Vith]

20 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

I actually just did a rewatch of the show and I kind of don't think Fitz has done anything worse than Daisy or any of them has in the past.

Fitz literally tortured Daisy. The screenshots of the episodes show how disgusting his actions are. To say that it's the same as what other characters have done is simply not accurate.

21 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

An argument can be made that Fitz is not in his right mind, which imo he isn't, just like Daisy wasn't when she was under Hive' s control. She did lots of things that she wouldn't do normally and she was forgiven. 

The argument doesn't work given the situations. Daisy was under Hive's control; she had no agency. Simmons snapped Fitz out of his delusion, and he not only continued to torture the inhibitor out of her, but he justified his actions afterwards.

21 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

He didn't kill anybody and she needed her powers back to fix a major problem they were having. I also think she put them at a disadvantage by refusing to get inhibitor removed. 

So it's okay that he tortured her instead of simply talking to her?

22 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

Some hard choices are going to be made and will keep being made until they can change the future. 

Fitz could have easily spoken with Daisy about the situation. That's the entire issue here. Nearly killing Mack and Yo-yo, kidnapping Daisy, putting her in a position where she ended up "traumatized" (and that could have killed her) was all unnecessary.

23 minutes ago, blugirlami21 said:

The Deke thing is neither here nor there for me at this point. I like the character. Far more important things to be up in arms about. Ymmv.

Considering Deke sold someone into slavery, I don't see how it isn't important to discuss. You're welcome not to participate if that's your wish, but it's an integral part of the reason why some people don't like the character.

[tessaray]

20 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Let's be frank here: slavery isn't one of those things that's defensible no matter what your societal norms are. It's inexcusable, and I find it frustrating when it's framed as something that is acceptable or understandable simply because of Deke's background (because it's not). That we've seen characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben only highlights that using his background doesn't work; Deke has no excuse. Deke also said he worked for Kasius, so selling Daisy wasn't the only thing he did for Kasius.

 

In our society, slavery is indefensible.  But setting the story in that particular dystopian future means that our norms no longer apply and Deke's actions re: Daisy happened to be one of the ways they chose to illustrate it.  If they were treating Deke like one of the team, that would be different but even now (except for the fish out of water scenes) he's still mostly shot on the fringes and in the shadows.   

If Deke does end up as one of the team, hopefully he will have done something more to earn that redemption.   

[Lobsel Vith]

15 minutes ago, tessaray said:

In our society, slavery is indefensible.  But setting the story in that particular dystopian future means that our norms no longer apply and Deke's actions re: Daisy happened to be one of the ways they chose to illustrate it.

No. Slavery is indefensible. That's it. Even in societies where historical slavery was permissive and lawful, there were people who recognized that it was morally repugnant and unethical. I'm not going to give Deke a pass because of the society he comes from, and I cringe at the idea that I'm expected to give him a pass. Even in this fictional setting, there are characters from the same society who demonstrated much better character than he ever did.

15 minutes ago, tessaray said:

If they were treating Deke like one of the team, that would be different but even now (except for the fish out of water scenes) he's still mostly shot on the fringes and in the shadows.   

He doesn't belong on the team at all.

18 minutes ago, tessaray said:

If Deke does end up as one of the team, hopefully he will have done something more to earn that redemption.   

If he does end up being part of the team, it'll be an example of how this show will prioritize a white male character over men of color during the run of the show, considering characters like Trip, Andrew, Joey, and Robbie have gotten much less than Deke, who has no reason to be on the team (as the show never states any reason at all that he was brought along) but is still there. Mack is pretty much the example that the Rule of One is still in effect on this show.

[tessaray]

48 minutes ago, Lobsel Vith said:

If he does end up being part of the team, it'll be an example of how this show will prioritize a white male character over men of color during the run of the show, considering characters like Trip, Andrew, Joey, and Robbie have gotten much less than Deke, who has no reason to be on the team (as the show never states any reason at all that he was brought along) but is still there. Mack is pretty much the example that the Rule of One is still in effect on this show.

I actually agree with this - there's no reason that they couldn't have made Deke's father a person of color. It was a missed opportunity. 

[paigow]

10 hours ago, tessaray said:

I actually agree with this - there's no reason that they couldn't have made Deke's father a person of color.... 

There is no definitive description of him so far....maybe he is

[Gothish520]

17 hours ago, Lobsel Vith said:

Deke isn't much better than Ward.

I disagree. Deke is nothing at all like Ward.

People are free to hate him all they want, but there are a lot of characters on this show that are shades of gray. There is reasoning and logic behind why some people don't loathe Deke and think he is nothing like Ward. Deke did not sell anyone into slavery. He turned Daisy in - he ratted her out for money. 

17 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

That was him in the first few episodes, yes. He wasn't a believer in this whole "these agents can save the world" mantra that he had been told on and on. He had to grow to learn that. His actions from the first few episodes are wrong in our perspective. Him taking that job from Kasius was the worst we've seen him, absolutely. Coulson locked him up when he found out (Deke had to escape on his own), he got punched several times, and Daisy did not say the words "I forgive you" at any point. But, taking a look at Deke's perspective, he was a very cynical person, growing up in a world built on survival. These strangers showed up, he found out that they were destined to save them, and he also found out Daisy was there. In his mind at that point, before knowing her, she was the one to destroy the world. That's all he's ever known. His world is not the same as our world. The world had already been destroyed for him; there was nothing to save. He had to learn to behave differently. And he's still working on it.

100%. This says it all, it explains Deke's motivation, it explains why he behaved the way he did. It shows that the team is not completely sold on him yet, they are not skipping through the fields with him hand in hand. Shades of gray. 

Ward was an awful, loathesome, evil person. Not a redeemable bone in his body. He chose evil, willingly. This is not Deke, not by a long shot. It's not Fitz either. But I'm not willing to excuse Fitz's behavior so readily. I feel bad about it because I loved Fitz, but he is clearly damaged and needs help. I wish the writers hadn't gone there, but I will accept it and go along for the ride. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Gothish520