S06.E01: Dead Hand

[SusanSunflower]

Funny, oddly enough, I was just thinking that an outraged telephone from "Paige's mother" to the security guard's employer reporting his ridiculous abuse of authority might well have been quite effective ....  and evoked zero suspicion ... Even an outraged phone call from "Paige" demanding the return of her (needed) identification would have evoked zero suspicion .... he had no right or authority to confiscate and to walk away with her necessary identification (what if she got stopped for a traffic violation or simply wanted to buy beer?) 

Edited March 29, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

he had no right or authority to confiscate and to walk away with her necessary identification (what if she got stopped for a traffic violation or simply wanted to buy beer?) 

He kept her college ID, not her driver's license. 

[SusanSunflower]

sorry, my bad -- but I don't think he had authority to confiscate either ... if he wanted to take them to "the station" to get a photocopy, fine -- Paige could follow him there and wait while he did that ... again -- not immediately "suspicious" ...   I think an "outraged phone call" might be useful, particularly if this officer decided to pursue or harass or make demands on Paige (to get her ID back) 

[atlantaloves]

Well, I for one, totally enjoy Miss Thang being totally bad ass and killing people in the middle of the street.  That was great.  This is going to be a terrific season. I am enjoying all the music, they are over doing it a little, because there isn't much of a script yet, (they are setting us up for the season) but I think they will get there. Meanwhile we can enjoy all the wigs and phony eye glasses. So glad you all had a long recap because I was getting a little confused, I love this site, it's the best! ?

[Umbelina]

He was just hitting on her, of course he had no "right" to do that.

Paige had options.  Flirt back (which could easily work, firm up the date for dinner to lead him on, take of the cap and swirl out the hair, yammer on about not knowing any cool guys, etc.)  OR Demand his ID and threaten to report him, throw a fit, be a bitch, say she didn't think the Navy would approve of his conduct OR methods of getting a date. OR, burst into tears, cry her eyes out about not being able to get back in the dorm, now that may have appealed to his sick "character" but more than likely he'd want to avoid a scene.  She could throw in that her mother died today, and she's waiting for her aunt to break the news that her sister is dead in person.  Flirting back and being VERY interested in their date would have been the easiest, by far.  Hell there are probably other ways as well, make up a dad who is a Navy Commander, and say that's who she's waiting for, whatever, or a dad who is a Congressman, on the defense committee, former Navy.  It's DC, anything would be believable, including an FBI agent dad who was on his way to meet her, or would certainly be able to get her ID back.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Umbelina

[dubbel zout]

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

I don't think he had authority to confiscate either

I was replying to your parenthetical about a traffic stop or buying a beer. A college ID wouldn't be acceptable in either situation.

[Helena Dax]

Philip and Elizabeth ending up as enemies is the saddest ending I can think of. It wasn't a good time to talk (Philip could have been clearer, anyway; a simple "We'll talk tomorrow, but I've been contacted" would have been enough) and I hope he tries again next morning. Secrets between them can only end bad.

I'm sorry, but how dumb is Paige? I mean, she's got eyes, she can see that her dad is out of the business and  what spying is doing to her mother. I guess she's been heavily brainwashed by Elizabeth and Claudia and I guess that when it turns out that your parents are Soviet spies, you don't really have good choices left. But I don't know why, I couldn't take her seriously. 

Elizabeth's face when she got that pill, omg. 

[scrb]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He was just hitting on her, of course he had no "right" to do that.

Paige had options.  Flirt back (which could easily work, firm up the date for dinner to lead him on, take of the cap and swirl out the hair, yammer on about not knowing any cool guys, etc.)  OR Demand his ID and threaten to report him, throw a fit, be a bitch, say she didn't think the Navy would approve of his conduct OR methods of getting a date. OR, burst into tears, cry her eyes out about not being able to get back in the dorm, now that may have appealed to his sick "character" but more than likely he'd want to avoid a scene.  Flirting back and being VERY interested in their date would have been the easiest, by far.  Hell there are probably other ways as well, make up a dad who is a Navy Commander, and say that's who she's waiting for, whatever, or a dad who is a Congressman, on the defense committee, former Navy.  It's DC, anything would be believable, including an FBI agent dad who was on his way to meet her, or would certainly be able to get her ID back.

She could have done what Nina would have done -- "I sucked his cock."

Has Paige's training gotten to the sexual seduction part yet?

In the opening montage, looks like Elizabeth hasn't gotten away from having to sex up marks.

 

Paige must have asked that question by now.  Besides beating up or killing people, what about honeytraps?

[RedHawk]

13 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

Fun historical/ geography fact! Paige was prob. staked out in Cleveland Park/Woodley Park. If she was a few blocks away from the Naval Observatory and a block from a great Chinese restaurant that was a place for some high-level US-Soviet meetings.  It all checks. There was a restaurant-- closed about 5 years ago-- called Ivy's (or something) that was known as a good neutral meeting place among diplomats.   Although I chuckle to think of that area referred to as a 'bad neighborhood.' It's gentrification city now-- can't buy a one bedroom condo for less than 400K these days.

Did they call it a bad neighborhood? LOL! That area of NW DC,  especially right around the Naval Observatory, has never been a bad neighborhood. Elizabeth murdered the guard near the intersection of Wisconsin Avenue and Calvert Street. That's in Glover Park, which borders the west side of the  Observatory grounds  

They play loose with DC geography although they use real street names and  sometimes reference real locations and businesses from that era. They used a more or less accurate, correct map last season when they showed Stan and Dennis marking a path that Sophia could walk to the (real!) Armand's pizza location, but they marked her workplace as being located in a place that it would not have been.

Edited March 30, 2018 by RedHawk

[Umbelina]

I'd bet a large amount of money that Paige is still a virgin, so no, and remember, Elizabeth is pretending to believe the lie that Paige will never have to kill anyone or do a honeytrap.

I mean really, Paige has no friends, let alone boyfriends, so just whom would she have fucked?

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'd bet a large amount of money that Paige is still a virgin, so no, and remember, Elizabeth is pretending to believe the lie that Paige will never have to kill anyone or do a honeytrap.

I mean really, Paige has no friends, let alone boyfriends, so just whom would she have fucked?

She and Stan's son were pretty horizontal and alone...there was implied sex. 

[Umbelina]

Just now, jjj said:

She and Stan's son were pretty horizontal and alone...there was implied sex. 

There was implied petting.  After that she dumped him.

[scrb]

If Elizabeth felt it necessary, she would have instructed Paige on sex and probably told her to go seduce some guy so that she got some experience and then was ready to add it to her spying tool belt.

Wasn't Elizabeth getting raped by that general the first time she had sex?

If she's had to pay a high price to serve her country, why would she think Paige could be exempt from having to make similar sacrifices?

If it wasn't her asking her to honeytrap, sooner or later the Center would.

[Umbelina]

Don't you remember, Elizabeth bought, hook line and sinker, that Paige would just "work in an office somewhere."  Philip is the one that pointed out that "things never go as planned" and asked her about Paige cutting up a body to stuff it in a suitcase, killing someone, doing honeytraps "what WE do."  Elizabeth became furious and said Paige would never have to do any of that.

The denial is strong in Liz.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Umbelina

[walnutqueen]

6 minutes ago, scrb said:

If Elizabeth felt it necessary, she would have instructed Paige on sex and probably told her to go seduce some guy so that she got some experience and then was ready to add it to her spying tool belt.

Wasn't Elizabeth getting raped by that general the first time she had sex?

If she's had to pay a high price to serve her country, why would she think Paige could be exempt from having to make similar sacrifices?

If it wasn't her asking her to honeytrap, sooner or later the Center would.

What a good Mum.

I wonder if that's why Phillip had reservations?

[Erin9]

12 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Philip and Elizabeth ending up as enemies is the saddest ending I can think of. It wasn't a good time to talk (Philip could have been clearer, anyway; a simple "We'll talk tomorrow, but I've been contacted" would have been enough) and I hope he tries again next morning. Secrets between them can only end bad.

Agreed. E and P ending up as enemies is the saddest ending I can think of too. Yes, it was a bad time, but from what we’ve seen there really isn’t a good one. E has been worked into the ground and seems to be working all the time. I think a part of her resents he quit, even if it was her idea. She does need him. 

What he had to say was very important. He kept repeating that it was important, and she just wasn’t listening. Because she didn’t believe it was. 

The best scenes of the show were Arkady laying it out for Oleg and Oleg for Philip. Incredibly powerful. 

[BW Manilowe]

25 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

He kept her college ID, not her driver's license. 

Well, she would probably still need her college ID if it wasn't fake & if she actually had classes to go to; especially depending on how hard it might've been to get the ID replaced (which, I suppose, she could also do if she had to). At least at the college where I went, it seemed like you needed it for stuff way more than you expected to, or way more than you needed any of your other school ID's--besides the college 1-- for stuff.

As I remember, among the stuff we needed our college ID for was to check things out of the campus library; I think, once we had 1 we had to show it when we chose & registered for our new classes every semester, to help verify we were actually enrolled (& I'm pretty sure there was another method they verified our enrollment status with, since it's entirely possible for someone to make a fake ID); we also had to use it if we wanted the student admission fee for on campus events that required tickets or admission fees. And there was other stuff we needed our ID's for that I can't remember right now. It's been 33 years since I went to college.

So, yeah, I could probably see why Paige would be pissed off about that guy keeping/trying to keep her ID.

[SunnyBeBe]

Why is it that E, Claudia and Paige talked freely after watching the movie, but, when in their own home, P and E turn on the water and whisper to talk business? 

[Umbelina]

Because talking about a movie is nothing compared to someone listening in to them talking about active operations.

[jjj]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Because talking about a movie is nothing compared to someone listening in to them talking about active operations.

Which is also a proxy for talking about their marriage.

[Inquisitionist]

9 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Agreed. E and P ending up as enemies is the saddest ending I can think of too. Yes, it was a bad time, but from what we’ve seen there really isn’t a good one. E has been worked into the ground and seems to be working all the time. I think a part of her resents he quit, even if it was her idea. She does need him. 

The number of simultaneous assignments that Elizabeth has going on has always been far-fetched hasn't it?  But it seems to have reached ridiculous proportions now.  The nursing thing seems to be an every night requirement, then she's also tailing people walking in and out of buildings, and flying down to Mexico at the drop of a hat... I think William's set-up in Glanders was more realistic:  his one mission was to work in a lab.

8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Why is it that E, Claudia and Paige talked freely after watching the movie, but, when in their own home, P and E turn on the water and whisper to talk business? 

I thought they turned on the water back when they didn't want Paige and Henry to hear them.

I'll have to watch this again in the next day or two.  Lots going on that promises excitement this season, but some of it was hard to follow.

[SunnyBeBe]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Because talking about a movie is nothing compared to someone listening in to them talking about active operations.

They talked about what info Paige had gotten on some weapons, the upcoming summit and Claudia even told E about her sudden trip to Mexico.  So, that seems pretty sensitive stuff to me. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Well, so far, this season, I hate the loud and endless music more than Paige.  It's cheap, annoying, and most of these actors don't need "help" conveying emotions and turmoil.

I forgot to comment on that but I really didn't like the music either. It felt like suddenly they felt the need to bring in music to underline things that did not need that at all and there were so many songs it felt like flipping through a playlist.

 

1 hour ago, SusanSunflower said:

sorry, my bad -- but I don't think he had authority to confiscate either ... if he wanted to take them to "the station" to get a photocopy, fine -- Paige could follow him there and wait while he did that ... again -- not immediately "suspicious" ...   I think an "outraged phone call" might be useful, particularly if this officer decided to pursue or harass or make demands on Paige (to get her ID back) 

She herself probably could have even demanded to speak to a supervisor. Yes it would have someone else seeing her, but she's in light disguise and they're not getting her picture. Paige started out the situation being friendly and open and couldn't really change gears.

 

42 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

I'm sorry, but how dumb is Paige? I mean, she's got eyes, she can see that her dad is out of the business and  what spying is doing to her mother. I guess she's been heavily brainwashed by Elizabeth and Claudia and I guess that when it turns out that your parents are Soviet spies, you don't really have good choices left. But I don't know why, I couldn't take her seriously. 

Maybe she can't see it. It's not like either kid noticed when Philip was falling apart. As a kid she probably just assumes Elizabeth is always fine--underlined in this episode by Elizabeth reassuring her that everything was fine when Elizabeth herself actually felt like she needed to murder someone to fix what was not fine.

41 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Did they call it a bad neighborhood? LOL! That area of NW DC,  especially right around the Naval Observatory, has never been a bad neighborhood. Elizabeth murdered the guard near the intersection of Wisconsin Avenue and Calvert Street. That's in Glover Park, which borders the west side of the  Observatory grounds  

The guy was quite possibly just bullshitting about that anyway. He says he's a security guard, but he came over because she's sitting in a car minding her own business and it's a bad neighborhood. So what, is he asking for ID to protect her? Too bad she didn't immediately think to say, "It's a bad neighborhood? Thanks, Mister!" and drive off.

Of course she felt more hampered because she's actually trying to be a spy, but that's why a real life situation probably would have gone down really differently. A real girl might have just said no when he asked her for ID and then driven off. Like no, being in the Navy does not actually give you any right to ask for my papers on a public street. The fact that Paige had the ID and cover story ready probably made her almost too happy to give it.

32 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

33 minutes ago, jjj said:

She and Stan's son were pretty horizontal and alone...there was implied sex. 

There was implied petting.  After that she dumped him.

Definitely no sex implied between Paige and Matthew. Second comment left in the thread for next week's ep.

28 minutes ago, scrb said:

If she's had to pay a high price to serve her country, why would she think Paige could be exempt from having to make similar sacrifices?

If it wasn't her asking her to honeytrap, sooner or later the Center would.

Elizabeth totally buys she wouldn't have to do that. And frankly, she freakin' shouldn't! It makes far more sense for Paige to live a normal life in a boring job with access to lots of info. But on this show, sure, she'd probably wind up going straight to honeytrapping. She already somehow triggered a murder when her shift hadn't even started yet. Plus the show tends to like to show spying and sex as related. Her relationship with Matthew already did that. It's probably the way Paige would be most comfortable having sex.

 

20 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

What he had to say was very important. He kept repeating that it was important, and she just wasn’t listening. Because she didn’t believe it was. 

The arrogance was pretty clear. What Philip had to say couldn't be important. It would be about his job or Henry, two unimportant things because they're not part of the Cause. It was kind of a nice flip of the old-fashioned condescending husband thing: I know you like to TALK honey, because you women like to TALK TALK TALK about trivial stuff but I work all day and I'm tired.

19 minutes ago, BW Manilowe said:

Well, she would probably still need her college ID if it wasn't fake & if she actually had classes to go to; especially depending on how hard it might've been to get the ID replaced (which, I suppose, she could also do if she had to). At least at the college where I went, it seemed like you needed it for stuff way more than you expected to, or way more than you needed any of your other school ID's--besides the college 1-- for stuff.

A real college student would have rightfully demanded that back. It would probably be needed immediately. It's not just some little card they give you to make you feel special. Actually, it probably would have worked just as well if Paige had gone to the restaurant later with Elizabeth or Marylin and then they could just say, "You took my daughter's ID. Give it back and I'm reporting you." Elizabeth seemed to consider her priority to be to assure Paige that it was totally fine to give the guy her ID instead of using it as another challenge to teach.

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They talked about what info Paige had gotten on some weapons, the upcoming summit and Claudia even told E about her sudden trip to Mexico.  So, that seems pretty sensitive stuff to me. 

They were alone in an apartment. Philip and Elizabeth are supposed to do the water thing when they're afraid someone else in the house might hear. The safe house is like one big water faucet running all the time, or it's supposed to be.

Edited March 29, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

I'm almost willing to ignore the part of this in which Paige should have known her rights if questioned by "authority" while doing surveillance....  This was arguably a "sensitive" location to be inexplicably loitering in .... 24/7/365 ... but likely doubly so in the run up to the summit.   

A single woman sitting in a car late at night in a "bad neighborhood" (which I think included most of D.C. for a decade or two) probably needs to have some explanation for being at "loose ends" -- consulting a map??? maybe --- rather than just hanging out in a dangerous abandoned location for no reason.   

Police do abuse their authority ... I was pulled over "to make sure everything was okay" at 1 am on the San Diego Freeway driving down to see my boyfriend after getting off work at 11:30 pm ... he said I was "weaving' but I was stone cold sober and had had cups of coffee (I was tired).  About a year later, a cop in that area was arrested (and eventually convicted) for murder and sexual exploitation of women driving alone though his corridor.  He would accuse them of "weaving" (drunk driving) and "let them off with a warning" in exchange for sex ... except for a couple he beat up and another he killed. 

For a lot of reasons, I dislike plot points suggesting that women (or men) can simply turn on the charmn and use sex" as some magic get-out-of-trouble-free card. Many women discovered that actually they're going to be murdered anyway because they now "know too much" .... and/or in the eyes of their abuser they're simply whores ... 

Edited March 29, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[shura]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

OR, burst into tears, cry her eyes out about not being able to get back in the dorm

Wouldn't that require acting ability?

[Umbelina]

14 minutes ago, shura said:

Wouldn't that require acting ability?

Ha!  I think almost anyone can at least fake tears, even Paige, even Holly.

I moved this over from the spoiler thread.  I'm trying to clarify this rather important plot device/story. 

Do I have this right?  Gorbachev wants to give up Dead Hand if it will stop Star Wars.  The KGB doesn't want to give up Dead Hand even if that means taking out Gorbachev.  Arkady and now Oleg and Philip all want to know what Elizabeth's mission is, and if it's to stop them from giving up Dead Hand, to stop her from succeeding.  Granny got orders from the KGB that's against Gorbachev, to stop the forfeiture of Dead Hand.  Does Granny know the KGB is thwarting leader of the USSR?  Is she in the dark about that?  So Arkady is siding with the leader of his country over his colleagues *and boss presumably* at the KGB?

They certainly managed to conveniently skip over how Oleg got permission to go to the USA.  He barely got away without being shot before, WHY would they allow him a trip to the USA just a couple of years later?  Frankly, skipping over the most difficult part of this set up pisses me off.  Lazy writing.

[Dev F]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It's stupid.  It's even more stupid that they keep telling us how smart she is, and she has shown NO sign of being smart.  She's not asking good questions with Granny and mom, she's not independently researching.  She lives near DC where every single newspaper covers the conditions in the world, and specifically the USSR.  She met her grandmother, who lived during Stalin, and hasn't even shown the slightest interest in THAT horrifying period of time, and apparently cares nothing about persecution for religion, or listening to the Jewish people who have been released talk about conditions in her "now."

I'd argue that Paige has had like a four-season arc explaining why she isn't asking those kinds of questions. It climaxed last season with her discovering that her gentle, peace-loving American mentor was lying to her about his belief that she was broken beyond repair, while her ass-kicking Russian-spy mom seemed to be coming clean with her about everything and showing her how to be strong and unafraid.

It's not about the politics or moral philosophy of it; in this series, that's almost always been beside the point. Like most things on the show, it's about the psychology of interpersonal relationships, and in that sense it rings true to me. And not in the sense that you have to set aside the philosophical implausibilities and focus on the personal dimension; it actually makes sense to me, all things considered, that Paige's psychological needs would override her intellectual judgment. Hell, I know people in real life much smarter than Paige who believe things much stupider because their psychological state demands it.

[scrb]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Ha!  I think almost anyone can at least fake tears, even Paige, even Holly.

I moved this over from the spoiler thread.  I'm trying to clarify this rather important plot device/story. 

Do I have this right?  Gorbachev wants to give up Dead Hand if it will stop Star Wars.  The KGB doesn't want to give up Dead Hand even if that means taking out Gorbachev.  Arkady and now Oleg and Philip all want to know what Elizabeth's mission is, and if it's to stop them from giving up Dead Hand, to stop her from succeeding.  Granny got orders from the KGB that's against Gorbachev, to stop the forfeiture of Dead Hand.  Does Granny know the KGB is thwarting leader of the USSR?  Is she in the dark about that?  So Arkady is siding with the leader of his country over his colleagues *and boss presumably* at the KGB?

They certainly managed to conveniently skip over how Oleg got permission to go to the USA.  He barely got away without being shot before, WHY would they allow him a trip to the USA just a couple of years later?  Frankly, skipping over the most difficult part of this set up pisses me off.  Lazy writing.

Elizabeth knows Gorbachev was pushing for the arms reduction talks.  The arms race ruined the Soviet economy.

So obviously she knows that if that general didn't want to give up Dead Hand, that would be going against what Gorbachev was trying to do.

But he made it explicit, that if Gorbachev was trying to bargain that away, Elizabeth would tell them and they'd overthrow Gorbachev, within 24 hours IIRC.

[Sunshinegal]

Stan's girlfriend Renee is played by the same person who played Marita on the X-Files. She must be up to something. And Stan's weakness is pretty women. And she looks as good now as she did 20 years ago. I wish I look that good in 2o years.

[Umbelina]

AND @Dev F, if that were the explanation the writers were offering, instead of constantly saying how smart and mature she is?  I'd be much more comfortable with her character.

They don't do that though, even though that is a much more workable premise.

Just now, scrb said:

Elizabeth knows Gorbachev was pushing for the arms reduction talks.  The arms race ruined the Soviet economy.

So obviously she knows that if that general didn't want to give up Dead Hand, that would be going against what Gorbachev was trying to do.

But he made it explicit, that if Gorbachev was trying to bargain that away, Elizabeth would tell them and they'd overthrow Gorbachev, within 24 hours IIRC.

Granny must be kept in the dark though, according to him as well.

So, lots of lies and treason going on this year.

[scrb]

Well Granny knew that someone wanted to meet Elizabeth in Mexico, which is highly unusual, to make an illegal do that.  She had less than a day to go down there.

Arkady also mentioned to Oleg that this faction was looking to meet an illegal, which was going over his authority.

That's probably what drove Arkady to go to Oleg that night and get him to get to Philip before the other side could or Elizabeth could get him on her side.

Even if Elizabeth doesn't tell Claudia what happened in Mexico, she can probably deduce that it has something to do with the arms talks, since that is what Elizabeth is working on.  If it was important enough to pull her away from her work, it probably has something to do with it.

If the Strategic Rocket guys think that giving away Dead Hand must be stopped at all costs, then the other Russians -- Philip, Elizabeth, Claudia, etc. -- all know how important the outcome of those talks are.

[Umbelina]

Either way, Liz was told to not tell anyone from Center, so she has to lie to Granny as well.

Should be tense, all our Soviets at cross purposes.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

They certainly managed to conveniently skip over how Oleg got permission to go to the USA.  He barely got away without being shot before, WHY would they allow him a trip to the USA just a couple of years later?  Frankly, skipping over the most difficult part of this set up pisses me off.  Lazy writing.

To be fair, they did at least tell us they were doing that. I think Arkady said to Oleg that because of his father and connections he could travel the USA. It doesn't explain why, but at least it says there's a reason for it somewhere.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Do I have this right?  Gorbachev wants to give up Dead Hand if it will stop Star Wars.  The KGB doesn't want to give up Dead Hand even if that means taking out Gorbachev.  Arkady and now Oleg and Philip all want to know what Elizabeth's mission is, and if it's to stop them from giving up Dead Hand, to stop her from succeeding.  Granny got orders from the KGB that's against Gorbachev, to stop the forfeiture of Dead Hand.  Does Granny know the KGB is thwarting leader of the USSR?  Is she in the dark about that?  So Arkady is siding with the leader of his country over his colleagues *and boss presumably* at the KGB?

That's how I understand it. The head of the KGB has bypassed the head of Directorate S to set up a meeting with Elizabeth. But we also know that they set up this meeting through Claudia, because she's the one who sent her to Mexico City. It's quite possible, therefore, that Claudia knows that this meeting is wonky because it must be coming through a different channel, right? Because this is a Directorate S thing but it's not using the usual channels, which Arkady would know about. So Claudia may very well know she's working against Arkady and/or Gorbachev. It definitely seems like she'd be on the hardliner side if she had to choose. But she didn't give Elizabeth a heads-up about that before she was sitting down at the table. The more I think about it, the more it seems like Claudia must know it's a plot because if she didn't they'd risk her accidentally saying something about it to the wrong people, right? She may have been the person to recommend Elizabeth for the job.

Quite possibly Elizabeth was chosen for the same reason Philip was. They looked at her file and thought she'd be anti-reform, and also that she'd follow any order she was given. As Oleg laid out, either she's being used by them or she's one of them. Which is probably something Elizabeth herself isn't even sure about. They even just told her to potentially kill herself at the end of this. Claudia might not literally know that, but all this does still imply that she was fine with sending Elizabeth on a potentially rogue assignment despite being Paige's "Granny."

But at this point Arkady and Oleg have no idea what Elizabeth's meeting is about, right? They just know it's something Arkady shouldn't know about and it's an easy guess that it's something to scuttle Gorbachev's plans for the summit. They probably know nothing about Dead Hand because that's top secret.

More and more it seems like the whole thing rests on Elizabeth turning to her husband. The Centre has isolated her from him, they have her keeping things secret about Paige, about her work. Now she's in an anti-Gorbachev plot. The only person she really has to talk to is Claudia who had a hand in putting her into the position and presumably expects her to simply carry it all out. Claudia doesn't really care whether she sleeps or takes cyanide.

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

I'd argue that Paige has had like a four-season arc explaining why she isn't asking those kinds of questions. It climaxed last season with her discovering that her gentle, peace-loving American mentor was lying to her about his belief that she was broken beyond repair, while her ass-kicking Russian-spy mom seemed to be coming clean with her about everything and showing her how to be strong and unafraid.

To me, when I think back on her arc, the thing that seems most important is that part at the end: strong and unafraid. It seems like she feels power and security in being an insider in this plot. Philip and Elizabeth used their mysterious power to get rid of Pastor Tim, a figure that had become a symbol of anxiety, and then Paige started punching a bag and being able to walk alone at night. She decided to be mom, definitely. That convo with Philip about EST seems more and more significant now. The one where he said she could choose who she was, specifically meaning that she didn't have to be "screwed up" or somebody who didn't fit in the world. It seems like instead she decided to embrace the idea that this was the only place she'd be understood/accepted. She decided to define herself by her misery or whatever. That said, still...

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

, if that were the explanation the writers were offering, instead of constantly saying how smart and mature she is?  I'd be much more comfortable with her character.

Yes, that's really jarring. When they literally describe this Paige as more confident, as independent, curious and intelligent, it seems like they're obviously saying that those things add up to...this. And as an added ironic twist her younger brother has been shown to be all those things since the start of the show and has grown into a much more obvious example of them.

It's just awkward given the world at the time. It's not like a story about her joining the church group or even a White Power movement or nowadays ISIS--those things are more familiar potential influences. Paige is more like an 80s teenager who spent the summer with her aging hippie aunt and came back to school acting like she *was* a hippie as if it was 1968.  She likes it because she's really taken with her aunt's stories about Woodstock but it just makes people at school uncomfortable and embarrassed for her.

Edited March 30, 2018 by sistermagpie

[crgirl412]

10 hours ago, benteen said:

It looked like he was with some of his employees so it must have been a later happy hour sort of thing.

They wouldn't have been doing that fun-looking sh** if Elizabeth were still going in to the office. 

[Umbelina]

I don't think Elizabeth CAN talk to Granny, even if Granny has guessed though.  She WAS specifically told not to do that, correct?  So, if she does, and Granny is after all in on the plot to overthrow Gorbachev as needed?  IF Elizabeth ignores her instructions and tells her, Granny would be pissed, and lose trust in blabbermouth Liz, maybe even decide she must be eliminated once this is all over?  IF, on the other hand, Granny isn't in on it, she may be nervous that Liz's lies or avoidance seem questionable, and she's "lost control" of a very important agent at a very important time.   Tough lines for Liz to walk, because of course, Granny at least, might also suspect (either way) that Liz might tell Philip.

Which could end up giving the KGB a reason to hang Philip from the long rope they've given him.

A lovely mess for all!

At least Oleg, Philip, and Arkady are on the winning side of this Gorbachev/KGB war.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[Avaleigh]

Great premiere episode. I feel confident that this show will stick the landing when it comes to the finale.

In last season's finale when Elizabeth told Philip that she doesn't want to see him like this anymore, that's how I felt watching Elizabeth in this episode. It's hard to see her in this place where it's almost like she's half dead inside. 

Even though I know it will never happen, I'd love for P&E to finally defect and salvage some kind of life worth living where they can be reasonsbly happy.

What was really hard for me to see is just how expendable Elizabeth is to the KGB even though she's one of their best officers and has sacrificed so much for them. She's given them everything. Her body, her time, her youth, her child, her personal life, etc. Now they expect her to kill herself for them if things don't go according to plan. How can she not see that they don't give a shit about her on a personal level and that Paige will be equally expendable to them if shit ends up going wrong for whatever reason?

It was sad to see that she still has to sleep with strangers for the Cause even though she'd obviously rather not. (It's significant to me that this isn't something that she wants Paige to ever have to do.) She has a husband and partner who loves her and vice versa but they are barely allowed to spend any time together because of her work.

It's almost like Elizabeth is doing double the work now that Philip is more or less retired. (Is he still doing the Kimmy job?) I feel like I picked up on some resentment from Elizabeth that Philip is in a place where he's enjoying his life. It's like she's simultaneously envious and annoyed that he's been allowed to (mostly) shake off his commitment to their cause even though she gave him her blessing last season. 

While some part of her is okay with Philip going to watch Henry play hockey, I think another part of her is angry that he gets to do that. While part of her is understanding and sympathetic to why Philip retired in the first place, I think another part of her wants him to say, "I can't watch you do this alone anymore. I still want to support the cause as much as you do. I'm ready to go back." 

[Chaos Theory]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

They talked about what info Paige had gotten on some weapons, the upcoming summit and Claudia even told E about her sudden trip to Mexico.  So, that seems pretty sensitive stuff to me. 

The location they meet probably gets swept for bugs on the regular.  P&E can hardly do a full and careful sweep of their home so when they take a few basic precautions.  Turning on the water and talking with your voices low is a small thing to make sure no one is listening in.   Plus they really don’t want Henry and early on Paige to hear  them.     

Edited March 30, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

The location they meet probably gets swept for bugs on the regular.  P&E can hardly do a full and careful sweep of their home so when they take a few basic precautions.  Turning on the water and talking with your voices is a small thing to make sure no one is listening in.   Plus they really don’t want Henry and early on Paige to hear  them.     

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure parabolic microphones were also around then, and could be used. 
By the way, you can own your own now for not that much money.  and...wow.

[scrb]

You know it would be an interesting dichotomy if people like Arkady, Oleg and Philip are for reforms because they've seen that life in the West is nothing like the way it was portrayed by Soviet propaganda.

So they know the country must have reforms, try something different than the course they were on most of the 20th century.

Meanwhile it's KGB and others at the top who live well and want to maintain their privilege are the ones who will stop reforms, because they can't be sure they will retain their privilege after the reforms.

[Higgs]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

They certainly managed to conveniently skip over how Oleg got permission to go to the USA.  He barely got away without being shot before, WHY would they allow him a trip to the USA just a couple of years later?  Frankly, skipping over the most difficult part of this set up pisses me off.  Lazy writing.

Oleg took out a "loan." His wife and child are collateral.

[Sarah 103]

23 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Philip Line dancing was everything.

Agreed. He looked happy and goofy. Paige and Henry would have been so embarassed if they saw him. 

23 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

Shouldn’t her focus be on getting into Georgetown and then working deep cover for the State Department, not being a mini-Elizabeth? I mean it’s still possible that’s where they’re going with her. 

 

I thought that was the plan too, although based on her line about the freshman dorms being past tense, she is already at least a sophmore in college. 

22 hours ago, Maire said:

Happy to see Oleg even with the neck beard.

Very happy to see Oleg, could have done without the neck beard. 

22 hours ago, Sader87 said:

1987...one of the last eras before pervasive cell-phone use (though I did see a primitive one in Philip's car I think)

I thought what he had was a carphone. My parents both had carphones when I was growing up. The carphone was stuck in the car, you couldn't remove it like you could with the big breifcase early cellphones. 

21 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

How is she going to handle honeytrapping.

In honeytrapping she will have the power, she will be the one in control. At least that's my guess

19 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

@jjj Also, what is the deal with her school? I know I'm the only who cares about this but what exactly are the Russians grooming her for? Shouldn't they be focused on getting her close to powerful people, not sneaking around bars watching randos?

I agree. You would think they would want her involved in campus life and spending time with her peers/classmates because some of them are eventually going to be become important people in government and industry. 

12 hours ago, ChromaKelly said:

Another season of worrying about Oleg. Don't hurt my Oleg! 
 

What do you mean your Oleg? He's mine. (just kidding-the wonderful thing about fantasy is that we can both have him) I agree that I want him to come through this okay and reasonably unharmed. 

11 hours ago, halopub said:

Save Oleg!

Yes! 

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I'm going to be really annoyed if Henry's plotline this season is just about how he gets to live in blissful ignorance as a typical American teenager. I just can't fathom that the Center would be so incredibly stupid as to place all their hopes on Paige, and completely ignore all of Henry's potential.

It's totally Godfather. Henry is Michael. "I never wanted this for you," but like Michael, he has all the skills and would be amazing. 

10 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

I don't like the redone travel agency only because they went way too far.  It was a very small, fairly dark office with about 3 employees and now it's huge, bright and modern with several employees.   

I like that the private office is still stuck in the 1970s but clearly business has really taken off and Philip decided to make improvements. The outer office where most of the staff works reminded me of Michael Steadman's office as creative director of DAA (thirtysomething). 

10 hours ago, benteen said:

I think Henry is the good son who will do the right thing but I agree that Philip, Elizabeth and the Centre completely missed the boat when it comes to Henry and his potential.  Not to mention Henry noted that the school he goes to is one that congressman and senators send their kids too.  I suspect even with the training that Paige has received, Henry could run rings around her.

They recuited the wrong kid. I'm surprised they didn't change course and say we'll go after Henry, but we're going to wait until he's older. 

9 hours ago, misstwpherecool said:

One of things is that along with new office having a car phone back then would be status is many circles. A capitalist tool. Philip is dressing and acting like a banker or something. I don't think Philip is necessarily retired. Maybe the center has him working in different social circles for something else. Or Philip used trade craft to get money for his/their life.

My theory is that once he could devote his full time and energy to the travel agency it started to do much better. Staff figured it was because he know had to pay for private school tution and college tution. Philip was always interested in status symbols. He was the one who wanted the sports car. 

8 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Oleg, Arkady and Philip are a lot alike. It is interesting. I loved the passion and commitment that Oleg and Arkady have for seeing a better Russia, a better world. And Philip shares that too. He doesn’t talk much about the Motherland, but what he has said shows a deep desire for a better life for his people. A better standard of living in particular. And a more peaceful world. Arkady read his file very well and chose wisely imo. 

I agree. Philip isn't motivated by ideology. He wants to make the world better for his family and his people. Oleg wanted to figure out why the system wasn't working and improve it or fix it. 

6 hours ago, Tighthead said:

Was there a car phone?

I thought it was a removable tape deck/CD player like we all had back then. You would take the unit out of the dash so it couldn’t get stolen. Later just the faceplates became detachable. 

I thought it was a carphone. 

[Mrs peel]

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

sorry, my bad -- but I don't think he had authority to confiscate either ... if he wanted to take them to "the station" to get a photocopy, fine -- Paige could follow him there and wait while he did that ... again -- not immediately "suspicious" ...   I think an "outraged phone call" might be useful, particularly if this officer decided to pursue or harass or make demands on Paige (to get her ID back) 

As a Navy security guard (was he even that?) talking to someone on a public street in Washington DC, he had no authority to question her at all, never mind demand ID.

 

phillip had both a tape deck and carphone.  I thought the new expanded office was a sign that he had in fact given up spying and was solely focused on the business, which therefore was far more successful.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Mrs peel
Added another thought.

[Higgs]

12 minutes ago, scrb said:

Meanwhile it's KGB and others at the top who live well and want to maintain their privilege are the ones who will stop reforms, because they can't be sure they will retain their privilege after the reforms.

The difference between the two Soviet factions has to do with trust in American promises. SDI threatened an ability for an American first strike. "Dead Hand" would preclude it, but only if the US is told about it after it's in place. (See Strangelove, Doctor)

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Elizabeth CAN talk to Granny, even if Granny has guessed though.  She WAS specifically told not to do that, correct?  So, if she does, and Granny is after all in on the plot to overthrow Gorbachev as needed?  IF Elizabeth ignores her instructions and tells her, Granny would be pissed, and lose trust in blabbermouth Liz, maybe even decide she must be eliminated once this is all over?  IF, on the other hand, Granny isn't in on it, she may be nervous that Liz's lies or avoidance seem questionable, and she's "lost control" of a very important agent at a very important time.   Tough lines for Liz to walk, because of course, Granny at least, might also suspect (either way) that Liz might tell Philip.

Oh yes, you're right. I was even thinking about Granny being the person that Elizabeth could talk to in general about her work. But Granny asking "have you been sleeping?" is obviously different than Philip's "You're not sleeping." When Granny asks a question it's so that Elizabeth can assure her she's fine. With this, Elizabeth might at least be able to say she's got some big secret important thing, but you're right, she can't necessarily tell her what it is. Unless Claudia herself says that she already knows, I guess. But that wouldn't be a comfort because Claudia would just pressure her about it.

22 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

In last season's finale when Elizabeth told Philip that she doesn't want to see him like this anymore, that's how I felt watching Elizabeth in this episode. It's hard to see her in this place where it's almost like she's half dead inside. 

I wonder how Elizabeth is experiencing it beyond just feeling tired and depressed. Like with Philip he was consciously thinking about what he was doing and the people he'd hurt and why. Elizabeth doesn't do that, but she still seems obviously miserable. Maybe seeing Philip being able to have a life really does make her wish she could do that--without realizing it, of course. She has to keep telling herself that what she's doing matters more, but does it? This doesn't even seem to be a situation like with Young Hee where she's experiencing a connection that will later be painful.

25 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

While some part of her is okay with Philip going to watch Henry play hockey, I think another part of her is angry that he gets to do that. While part of her is understanding and sympathetic to why Philip retired in the first place, I think another part of her wants him to say, "I can't watch you do this alone anymore. I still want to support the cause as much as you do. I'm ready to go back." 

Oh yeah, I think that. Philip's the only one she could just openly resent. He's the only person who ever claimed to care about her personally. Only now she seems almost scared of it. I mean, there's Philip living a regular life and not only is it not empty of meaning...has the world really changed that much? He's like proof that it's possible but she's afraid to do it. What's sad is if they'd gone to Russia they'd at least be going through it together.

I think, btw, that Elizabeth's workload has maybe gone up a lot in the months leading up to the summit or something?

[jjj]

3 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

 single woman sitting in a car late at night in a "bad neighborhood" (which I think included most of D.C. for a decade or two) probably needs to have some explanation for being at "loose ends" -- consulting a map??? maybe --- rather than just hanging out in a dangerous abandoned location for no reason.   

Police do abuse their authority ... I was pulled over "to make sure everything was okay" at 1 am on the San Diego Freeway driving down to see my boyfriend after getting off work at 11:30 pm ... he said I was "weaving' but I was stone cold sober and had had cups of coffee (I was tired).  About a year later, a cop in that area was arrested (and eventually convicted) for murder and sexual exploitation of women driving alone though his corridor.  He would accuse them of "weaving" (drunk driving) and "let them off with a warning" in exchange for sex ... except for a couple he beat up and another he killed. 

For a lot of reasons, I dislike plot points suggesting that women (or men) can simply turn on the charmn and use sex" as some magic get-out-of-trouble-free card. Many women discovered that actually they're going to be murdered anyway because they now "know too much" .... and/or in the eyes of their abuser they're simply whores ... 

 

I actually thought "this is a bad neighborhood" was just a line to get Paige to roll down the window.  (although it might have been a bad neighborhood)  But anyone who has not been in this situation -- please don't try to get out of the car and "flirt your way out of it" or "ruffle his hair" -- that can go bad really fast.  Right answer is just to ask , "so, I can call the Naval Observatory when I need my ID to get back in my dorm?".  The guy knew this would not pass anyone's smell test.  I once had a car dealership refuse to return my license when I wanted to leave because they thought they were being cute, and it did not take the time to finish dialing "9-1-1" to have them hand it back.  

3 hours ago, BW Manilowe said:

Well, she would probably still need her college ID if it wasn't fake & if she actually had classes to go to; especially depending on how hard it might've been to get the ID replaced (which, I suppose, she could also do if she had to). At least at the college where I went, it seemed like you needed it for stuff way more than you expected to, or way more than you needed any of your other school ID's--besides the college 1-- for stuff.

As I remember, among the stuff we needed our college ID for was to check things out of the campus library; I think, once we had 1 we had to show it when we chose & registered for our new classes every semester, to help verify we were actually enrolled (& I'm pretty sure there was another method they verified our enrollment status with, since it's entirely possible for someone to make a fake ID); we also had to use it if we wanted the student admission fee for on campus events that required tickets or admission fees. And there was other stuff we needed our ID's for that I can't remember right now. It's been 33 years since I went to college.

So, yeah, I could probably see why Paige would be pissed off about that guy keeping/trying to keep her ID.

Well, it was not "her" ID card (it was a fake ID with different name and false address), but that was not the problem -- she needed not to have a trail of fake-Ellen in D.C. with her picture on it.  Imagine if Stan had an ID of Elizabeth with a different name -- even if she was wearing a magic wig and glasses.  

Edited March 30, 2018 by jjj

[Pink-n-Green]

23 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

...she is supposed to be a deep mole...

Speaking of moles, the mole on Oleg's wife's neck was very distracting.  I kept expecting it to start talking.  And I don't like Oleg's beard.

Does anyone else think that, although she encouraged him to quit the business, Elizabeth resents Phillip for line dancing, visiting Henry at school, etc. while she's murdering sailors and sleeping with gross old guys?

Paige looks really pretty with her new haircut but, geez, I'd forgotten about how eighties shoulder pads made even a petite woman look like a linebacker!

I wonder if we'll ever see Tuan again?

Those of you who think Stan's girlfriend is an illegal; do you think the knows who Phillip and Elizabeth really are?

I seem to be in the minority, but I liked the scene with Elizabeth, Paige and Claudia watching the Russian movie.  Paige and Claudia seem to have a nice, warm relationship.

I was originally going to TiVO the entire season and not watch until it was over.  That lasted until about 15 minutes after this episode ended :)

One more thing:  P and E were pretty mentally check out when Paige and Henry were growing up (especially E) I think Paige is thrilled that her mother is finally taking an interest in her and if spying for the Soviet Union is a way to keep Elizabeth's interest, she'll do just that.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Pink-n-Green

[RedHawk]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

The guy was quite possibly just bullshitting about that anyway. He says he's a security guard, but he came over because she's sitting in a car minding her own business and it's a bad neighborhood. So what, is he asking for ID to protect her? Too bad she didn't immediately think to say, "It's a bad neighborhood? Thanks, Mister!" and drive off.

She wasn't in a bad neighborhood. He was trying to get a date and used his "authority" to question her sitting there (which was likely within his job) and then he asked her to have dinner with him on the coming Saturday night. He didn't keep her ID to check her identity, he did it to force her into the date. He even told her that. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by RedHawk

[skippylou]

2 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

 

Those of you who think Stan's girlfriend is an illegal; do you think the knows who Phillip and Elizabeth really are?

 

No.  If she knows why never let P&E know?  Obvious answer she would have been instructed not to.  Then what would the purpose be?  It would only jeopardize P&E if she is ever caught.  Likewise telling P&E would only jeopardize Stan's GF (I forget her name) if they are ever caught.  Mutual ignorance seems to be the safest strategy.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

She wasn't in a bad neighborhood. He was trying to get a date and used his "authority" to question her sitting there and then ask her for the date. He didn't keep her ID to check her identity, he did it to force her into the date. He even told her that. 

Yeah, it's all stupid.  Paige is in her twenties now, right?  She doesn't know that a sailor can't demand her ID?

Henry would have known that at ten years old.

I get it, she was rattled for a minute, but she can't even keep it together on something as simple as that?  "No." or "My dad's at the naval observatory right now, that's who I'm waiting for."  Or hell, "My dad is a police officer, and he's on his way here to meet me.  He can verify who I am."

Edited March 30, 2018 by Umbelina

[jjj]

10 minutes ago, skippylou said:

No.  If she knows why never let P&E know?  Obvious answer she would have been instructed not to.  Then what would the purpose be?  It would only jeopardize P&E if she is ever caught.  Likewise telling P&E would only jeopardize Stan's GF (I forget her name) if they are ever caught.  Mutual ignorance seems to be the safest strategy.

It reminds me of the plotline a few seasons back, when the very public "defector" was not a defector at all, but everyone on both sides seemed a little or a lot wondering how much to believe her (the "defector").  Not everyone on each side has all the pieces of the puzzle, and that is intentional, to keep firewalls in place.  

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, it's all stupid.  Paige is in her twenties now, right?  She doesn't know that a sailor can't demand her ID?

Henry would have known that at ten years old.

I get it, she was rattled for a minute, but she can't even keep it together on something as simple as that?  "No." or "My dad's at the naval observatory right now, that's who I'm waiting for."  Or hell, "My dad is a police officer, and he's on his way here to meet me.  He can verify who I am."

 

Telling more lies is not the way to get out of the main lie (false identity).  I really can't fault Paige for not being able to get back the ID; there is a lot of victim-blaming here ("she should have done 'X' or 'Y'"), but it was the Naval officer who was the problem.  Saying her dad was at the Naval Observatory (eight blocks away) would not last a minute with a security officer from the facility.  He would know who has been admitted to the residence, or who works there.  

Edited March 30, 2018 by jjj