S02.E02: The Darlington 500

[babs1226]

On 3/19/2018 at 12:08 AM, TobinAlbers said:

No witnesses to see Emma shoot her too before she lifeboated back to 2018.

Just to be clear, Emma has the mother ship.  The heroes drive the lifeboat :).

[TobinAlbers]

4 minutes ago, babs1226 said:

Just to be clear, Emma has the mother ship.  The heroes drive the lifeboat :).

Ha! Okay. Emma motherships and Lucy lifeboats.

[legaleagle53]

10 hours ago, kili said:

Jiya's initial visions included a destroyed bridge. I'm betting Rittenhouse is planning to using violence to help reshape the world.

Not a destroyed bridge.  She saw the Golden Gate Bridge during its construction.  She can only see the past, not the future, because it would make no sense to give her the ability to foresee the future when  the showrunners have said that they have no plans for going to the future, ever.  Why would it help the Time Trio to know what happens in say, 2068 if they're never going to go there?

 

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And Lucy's grandpa seems to be Hitler reincarnated. That actually fits and would nicely simplify the convoluted Rittenhouse mythology.

Except that you can't be the reincarnation of someone who was a contemporary of yours and was still alive (albeit unheard of) at the time you left.  In order for Nicholas to be Hitler reincarnated, he would have to have been born after Hitler died. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by legaleagle53

[CooperTV]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

She can only see the past, not the future, because it would make no sense to give her the ability to foresee the future because the showrunners have said that they have no plans for going to the future, ever.

But she clearly saw the future at the moment when she saw the burn on Rufus's arm that wasn't there at the time and appeared later.

[legaleagle53]

1 minute ago, CooperTV said:

But she clearly saw the future at the moment when she saw the burn on Rufus's arm that wasn't there at the time and appeared later.

Wasn't Rufus already in 1955 when she saw it?  That's not seeing the future.  It's seeing something that happened at some point in the past after Rufus had arrived in 1955.

[CooperTV]

4 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Wasn't Rufus already in 1955 when she saw it?

No, it happened at the beginning of the episode when he was repairing the time-machine. She was also saying "It's not real, it's not real", referring to the vision. The picture after the spoiler tag.

Spoiler

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by CooperTV

[legaleagle53]

Just now, CooperTV said:

No, it happened at the beginning of the episode when he was repairing the time-machine.

But when did he get burned, in 1955 or in 2018?  If it happened in 1955, then it was a past event that she saw, not a future one.  Once Rufus set foot in 1955, he became part of that era, albeit temporarily.  His temporal footprint is still there.

Remember, Grandfather Paradox (and no, I don't mean Nicholas) knows when you've been messing around!

[CooperTV]

1 minute ago, legaleagle53 said:

But when did he get burned, in 1955 or in 2018?

She saw what will happen with the person from our timeline, and saw nothing else regarding the past.

[legaleagle53]

Just now, CooperTV said:

She saw what will happen with the person from our timeline, and saw nothing else regarding the past.

That doesn't answer the question.  When was he actually burned, in 1955, or in 2018?

[UNOSEZ]

So basically Jiya is seeing events that are going to become the past... She's seeing snippets of the timeline changing... Omg she's primary

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

 

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And Lucy's grandpa seems to be Hitler reincarnated. That actually fits and would nicely simplify the convoluted Rittenhouse mythology.

Except that you can't be the reincarnation of someone who was a contemporary of yours and was still alive (albeit unheard of) at the time you left.  In order for Nicholas to be Hitler reincarnated, he would have to have been born after Hitler died. 

Sorry, "reincarnated" is a bad word choice.
And I think I have the generations wrong too. He's Lucy's great grandfather, right?
So then, Evil Genius Great Grandpa might have been a contemporary of Hitler (born 1889), so maybe this is similar to Alexander Graham Bell patenting the telephone at the same time Antonio Meucci was working on his own version, and we could say Gramps Nicholas Keynes is just another version of Hitler? Or...?

[iMonrey]

On re-watch the episode makes less sense than the first time around. Why would Flynn have any information about one of the Rittenhouse sleeper agents? They weren't placed there until after he was already incarcerated and Emma took control of the Mother Ship. Even assuming that information magically appeared in his notes or the famous notebook (what happened to that anyway?) wouldn't they have already been confiscated by Denise and the government? Wouldn't they pretty much already have all the written info Flynn possessed? They're trying really hard to keep Flynn relevant (let's face it, Visnjic's the strongest actor on the show) but they wrote him into such a corner last season he really has no value to them at this point.

So Nicholas Keynes wrote a manifesto about planting sleeper agents in different decades with a time machine back around - say, 1912 or so. And according to Carol, "If it weren't for his writings we wouldn't be here!" Um, what now? Has Rittenhouse spent the last 106 years waiting around for someone to invent a time machine? That doesn't seem like a very realistic goal for 2018 let alone 1912. I don't see how Keynes was ever considered a brilliant leader rather than a kook and a dreamer. Further I don't see what bringing him into the future accomplishes either. He has no current knowledge and they are already in full possession of his grand plan because - apparently - they've been basing their whole idealism on it for the last 100+ years.

It also made ZERO sense for Denise to humiliate Mason that way. He's the one who invented the damn time machine in the first place, without telling the government. Clearly he's not on their side and only accepted their help because he had no choice. He's about the most dangerous enemy Denise could make right now and she's practically shoving him into the arms of Rittenhouse. How dumb is she?

I want to love this show so much and I do love the cast but frankly the writing is just terrible.

[JackONeill]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I want to love this show so much and I do love the cast but frankly the writing is just terrible.

As most, like you, have been saying, Rittenhouse is THE problem. I mean who is the bad guy? It’s no longer Flynn. Carol looks to be on the fence. Emma is as one-dimensional now as Flynn was in the first couple of episodes, so will she change, a la Flynn’s? 

Now, we have this weird dude, who’s someone’s father or grandfather. Yeah, he’s delusional but he doesn’t seem like a real baddie. In fact, he seems like a lightweight. And what, exactly, are the good guys supposed to be stopping? World domination? Do they want better seats at the Met? Or what? Who are they and what do they want? We still don’t know. Do the writers even know?

What would be wrong with having a fun little time time travel show, where the cute leads just jump into the past on larks and meet famous people?

[legaleagle53]

19 minutes ago, JackONeill said:

As most, like you, have been saying, Rittenhouse is THE problem. I mean who is the bad guy? It’s no longer Flynn. Carol looks to be on the fence. Emma is as one-dimensional now as Flynn was in the first couple of episodes, so will she change, a la Flynn’s? 

Now, we have this weird dude, who’s someone’s father or grandfather. Yeah, he’s delusional but he doesn’t seem like a real baddie. In fact, he seems like a lightweight. And what, exactly, are the good guys supposed to be stopping? World domination? Do they want better seats at the Met? Or what? Who are they and what do they want? We still don’t know. Do the writers even know?

What would be wrong with having a fun little time time travel show, where the cute leads just jump into the past on larks and meet famous people?

That's what Making History was supposed to be -- a cross between Timeless and Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure -- and it bombed spectactularly.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

On 3/19/2018 at 5:01 AM, BooBear said:

I am wondering why they are on superspeed with regard to the ship. I am guessing something happens in middle season that pulls them apart. 

I think its fairly obvious what that "something" will be - considering it was such a driving force for one of the pair's actions & motivations, at times, last season - but its just a matter of how far (& how long) they drag it out.

Edited March 20, 2018 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[snarktini]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And I think I have the generations wrong too. He's Lucy's great grandfather, right?

Correct. Lucy's mom is Carol. Carol's mom is the little girl the painting. The little girl is his daughter.

[legaleagle53]

27 minutes ago, snarktini said:

Correct. Lucy's mom is Carol. Carol's mom is the little girl the painting. The little girl is his daughter.

But what's interesting to me is that even though David Rittenhouse founded the organization in 1778, it still took 140 years for one of his spiritual descendants to become the actual architect of the organization's master plan and another 100 years for the architect to be allowed to bring the master plan to fruition.  It makes one wonder what exactly Rittenhouse was doing all those years between 1778 and 1918 and how Rittenhouse became so powerful between 1918 and 2018 without its chief architect around.

Edited March 20, 2018 by legaleagle53

[snarktini]

6 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

Which makes you wonder what happens if Carol decides to rebel against Nicholas.  If she kills him, she wipes both herself and Lucy out of existence, and she can't take him back to where and when she left him in 1918.

 

I don't think that's true. Killing him wouldn't erase her life. My understanding is that in the original timeline, he had kids, wrote a manifesto, and died on that battlefield. Blonde daughter grew up without Dad and had Carol. In this timeline, he had kids, wrote a manifesto, and was saved on the battlefield but taken to the future so he still leaves his timeline at the correct moment in history. Blonde daughter will still grow up without Dad and have Carol. 

But to your second point, yeah, Rittenhouse is a seemingly inept Big Bad. WTH.

[legaleagle53]

8 minutes ago, snarktini said:

I don't think that's true. Killing him wouldn't erase her life. My understanding is that in the original timeline, he had kids, wrote a manifesto, and died on that battlefield. Blonde daughter grew up without Dad and had Carol. In this timeline, he had kids, wrote a manifesto, and was saved on the battlefield but taken to the future so he still leaves his timeline at the correct moment in history. Blonde daughter will still grow up without Dad and have Carol. 

You're right. I had temporarily forgotten that Carol's mother was already a little girl when Nicholas left 1918 (and I even just watched the episode an hour or so ago!).  But I wonder now what Carol remembers being told about her grandfather while she was growing up.

Edited March 20, 2018 by legaleagle53

[Bort]

Carol seemed to make a pretty big deal out of Rittenhouse lineage, maybe her grandmother picked up the gauntlet once her husband died.

[Shanna Marie]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So then, Evil Genius Great Grandpa might have been a contemporary of Hitler (born 1889), so maybe this is similar to Alexander Graham Bell patenting the telephone at the same time Antonio Meucci was working on his own version, and we could say Gramps Nicholas Keynes is just another version of Hitler? Or...?

Hitler wasn't unique in being into the idea of eugenics and a master race. There was a lot of pseudoscience around that kind of concept in the late 1800s into the mid 20th century. He took it into genocide, but at that time, it wasn't entirely considered a crackpot idea that there were people who were superior members of the species and who should probably breed with each other, while others shouldn't be allowed to breed. There was stuff like phrenology -- studying the shape of the head -- to indicate which people were superior to others. So, basically, Hitler was a product of his time. He just managed to industrialize his ideas in a way no one else had.

The Rittenhouse thing doesn't seem to be about "race" in that sense (though Lindbergh was a Nazi sympathizer and the show had him being from a Rittenhouse family, so maybe there's also an element of racism there), but more about selecting the right people to put them in the right positions to shape history the way they want it to go. We can't really tell what characteristics they're looking for. It does seem like Lucy may have been the result of their breeding program, since her parents were both from Rittenhouse families but weren't really in a relationship -- like they hooked up to have a kid for the glory of Rittenhouse. But were they trying to have a child with certain attributes? With the father not in her life at all, it's not like he contributed anything but DNA, so his DNA would have had to be the only point in them getting together like that (if that's the case). Lucy wasn't being indoctrinated, even in Timeline #2, since her mother didn't expect her to know they were part of Rittenhouse (unless her mother somehow already knew she was the Lucy from Timeline #1).

[legaleagle53]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Lucy wasn't being indoctrinated, even in Timeline #2, since her mother didn't expect her to know they were part of Rittenhouse (unless her mother somehow already knew she was the Lucy from Timeline #1).

Since Lucy's paternal grandfather Ethan knew she was that Lucy (he told her in 2017 that as soon as he heard he had a new granddaughter and that her name was Lucy, it gave him hope that his years of living a double double life both as an undercover double agent with Rittenhouse and as a closeted gay man would not be in vain), it's not at all hard for me to believe that Carol knew the same thing.  As Flynn observed, "Time travel, right?"

Edited March 20, 2018 by legaleagle53

[UNOSEZ]

I don't know why.. And not sure how they could retcon this in.. But I'd love if Rufus' dad or at least his dad's side was rittenhouse... One it would kinda tamp down on making Lucy the golden child  which can get kinda boring and two.. It would add some color ( pun intended)  to rittenhouse cuz as it stands I only remember one person of color being attached to  rittenhouse and she was trying to run away. Rather not have the big bads also be loony race haters as well.. Cuz how would Emma and Carol really be down with that.. Neither seem the type... Three Rufus' reaction would be priceless 

[BooBear]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Further I don't see what bringing him into the future accomplishes either. He has no current knowledge and they are already in full possession of his grand plan because - apparently - they've been basing their whole idealism on it for the last 100+ years.

My guess on that was that they kind of had to if they wanted to save him. Can't have him running around the time line when he is supposed to be dead.  I think they just presumed he would have something useful to offer it is only now that Carol is like ... err maybe not. 

Rittenhouse is THE problem.

 I am going to go with the idea that this kind of show needs a baddie that isn't too complicated and we don't think about too much.   I especially think so since they don't know if they will get renewed so they are just trying to go with what worked before. But it might have been better if someone did sit Lucy down and explain exactly what Rittenhouse is trying to do. Seems odd that Lucy is so against them without really knowing their plans.  Plus there seems to be tons of people loyal to them... maybe there is something positive there? Maybe? That would be a great twist if Rittenhouse had laudable goals and Flynn, Connor and the US gov't did not. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I am going to go with the idea that this kind of show needs a baddie that isn't too complicated and we don't think about too much.   I especially think so since they don't know if they will get renewed so they are just trying to go with what worked before. 

Well, I think you are correct in assuming the show doesn't expect us to think about this stuff very much, but that's kind of the problem. It's too ill-defined to be "simple" and it just makes me question it more. I get that this is typical network pablum and it's not terribly ambitious, but it could be clearer. As to "going with what worked before" - it didn't. Rittenhouse was just as much of a problem last season and viewers complained about it just as much. I really wish they would have dumped the whole concept. They didn't learn from their mistake, and that's problematic.

Quote

Seems odd that Lucy is so against them without really knowing their plans. 

Exactly. How are we supposed to be invested in the fight against an organization if we don't know what they want? "World domination" isn't scary enough, especially in today's political climate. Hell, things might be much better under Rittenhouse, we don't know. 

[legaleagle53]

37 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Well, I think you are correct in assuming the show doesn't expect us to think about this stuff very much, but that's kind of the problem. It's too ill-defined to be "simple" and it just makes me question it more. I get that this is typical network pablum and it's not terribly ambitious, but it could be clearer. As to "going with what worked before" - it didn't. Rittenhouse was just as much of a problem last season and viewers complained about it just as much. I really wish they would have dumped the whole concept. They didn't learn from their mistake, and that's problematic.

Exactly. How are we supposed to be invested in the fight against an organization if we don't know what they want? "World domination" isn't scary enough, especially in today's political climate. Hell, things might be much better under Rittenhouse, we don't know. 

Anything that tramples on people's rights and agency to remake the world in its own image "for the greater good" is anything BUT the greater good.  That's the lesson that we've apparently all failed to learn, despite having had the examples of Napoleon, Marx, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, and Saddam Hussein just in the past 200 years alone.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Hitler wasn't unique in being into the idea of eugenics and a master race. There was a lot of pseudoscience around that kind of concept in the late 1800s into the mid 20th century. He took it into genocide, but at that time, it wasn't entirely considered a crackpot idea that there were people who were superior members of the species and who should probably breed with each other, while others shouldn't be allowed to breed. There was stuff like phrenology -- studying the shape of the head -- to indicate which people were superior to others. So, basically, Hitler was a product of his time. He just managed to industrialize his ideas in a way no one else had.

The Rittenhouse thing doesn't seem to be about "race" in that sense (though Lindbergh was a Nazi sympathizer and the show had him being from a Rittenhouse family, so maybe there's also an element of racism there), but more about selecting the right people to put them in the right positions to shape history the way they want it to go. We can't really tell what characteristics they're looking for. It does seem like Lucy may have been the result of their breeding program, since her parents were both from Rittenhouse families but weren't really in a relationship -- like they hooked up to have a kid for the glory of Rittenhouse. But were they trying to have a child with certain attributes? With the father not in her life at all, it's not like he contributed anything but DNA, so his DNA would have had to be the only point in them getting together like that (if that's the case). Lucy wasn't being indoctrinated, even in Timeline #2, since her mother didn't expect her to know they were part of Rittenhouse (unless her mother somehow already knew she was the Lucy from Timeline #1).

Yes there were definitely black disciples viewing the old man's mural. So it plays like Captain America The First Avenger where Hydra was like Nazi, except without the ethnic and racial biases.

[IWantCandy71]

Quote

the actors, for me at least, are just not generating the kind of chemistry to convince me they are attracted to/in love with each other.  *shrugs* 

This, too. I've never been a "shipper" of any couples on any show in a major way-and I tend to hate any couples the show is forcing down my throat. I especially shake my head at pairings like Lucy and Wyatt, who have no chemistry. But...unpopular opinion perhaps...I'm still waiting for Abigail Spencer to have ANY chemistry with ANYONE on this show other than Goran. Some  folks online want to know why some ship Lucy and Flynn ? Well, because AS and GV have actual chemistry. And if I WERE going to ship a couple, they have to have it. GV/AS have it. AS/ML don't. AS also doesn't have it with the actor who plays Rufus, if anyone wanted to go there. In fact, I don't see "time team chemistry" with the three of them. Blame who you want for that-but I just don't see it. I don't buy that these three people love each other the way the show wants me to believe it. Not at all. And that's kind of important, you know. This kind of show can make or break on that alone.

 

23 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Flynn is a psychopath who just killed Lincoln, and many other people, including random old guy in the present, because he wanted to.

Show hinted that Lincoln was Rittenhouse, at least that's the impression I got at the time. Either that, or Rittenhouse had evil plans for Lincoln and Flynn killed to stop them. Flynn has said he didn't WANT to kill, but felt he "had" to. Doesn't make anything he has done right, but the fact that HE is the only one in jail  is laughably hypocritical coming from any of the main three characters. Except for maybe Rufus. Lucy and Wyatt can shut their mouths about anybody killing anybody else. Period.  But then maybe I just dislike Wyatt because I dislike any character who is pretty much just there for his looks. It certainly isn't his personality. Put a jar of mayo next to Wyatt and try to figure out which one is more alive. The jar of mayo at the time of this posting, is winning by a LANDSLIDE.

 

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 11:07 PM, LittleIggy said:

Jumping in to assassinate Lincoln was a bridge too far for me.

Again, see above. That particular move took THOUGHT. It wasn't done out of rashness or anger. There was a reason for it. Maybe show doesn't have the guts to say Lincoln was Rittenhouse ? But just from grandpa, I'd say part of his plan is to get ANY influential leader on their side-and that would include Lincoln, and if Lincoln didn't obey-they'd just off him, anyway. But probably in not so quick a way. Just my thoughts. But fact is, Flynn went back with *supposedly* the purpose of killing Lincoln....who was going to be assassinated anyway ? Come on, now. That doesn't make a bit of sense. Why go to all that trouble to assassinate someone who was already in history, going to be assassinated ? Either it's just another case of really sloppy writing, and the writers not really knowing what Flynn was up to in season one themselves, or they knew exactly: Flynn had to eliminate Lincoln before Rittenhouse recruited him(by blackmail, just like they recruited others, most likely). I mean, can't you imagine someone with Lincoln's influence, working for them? That alone would have changed American History irrevocably.Sadly, why a man who isn't stupid-and Flynn is not-would waste his time going back to do something that had already been done, will probably never be answered and we'll never know why he'd risk his life (which is what he was doing-whatever the reason for assassinating Lincoln-it was important enough that Flynn risked his life to do so). There had to be  more to it than "oh, there's Lincoln. Let me shoot him." If Flynn has been against Rittenhouse this whole time, the ONLY view that really makes sense, is that Rittenhouse wanted the opposite to happen: they wanted Lincoln alive. Not for any good purpose, either. In fact, if Flynn has seen the future-quite possible that future has an alive Lincoln as grandpa's second in command. You never know. It's science fiction, after all. And wouldn't an evil Lincoln, even if forced to be evil, be some kind of trippy fun ?

 

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 9:09 PM, Lieutenant said:

Does the Time Team's treatment of Flynn not bother anyone else?  I found them to be annoyingly sanctimonious , tbh

 I enjoy watching Flynn, but Rufus can use his head for a drum until Flynn grovels for Rufus getting shot,  and I'll just nod and smile. But Wyatt and Lucy. Those two can shut up and sit down. They've been annoyingly sanctimonious since day one.  I cannot stand self righteous characters, especially when there's very little right about them. What's that on your hands, Lucy and Wyatt ? Oh, it's innocent blood.  Yeah.

Edited March 21, 2018 by IWantCandy71

[legaleagle53]

31 minutes ago, IWantCandy71 said:

Again, see above. That particular move took THOUGHT. It wasn't done out of rashness or anger. There was a reason for it. Maybe show doesn't have the guts to say Lincoln was Rittenhouse ? But just from grandpa, I'd say part of his plan is to get ANY influential leader on their side-and that would include Lincoln, and if Lincoln didn't obey-they'd just off him, anyway. But probably in not so quick a way. Just my thoughts. But fact is, Flynn went back with *supposedly* the purpose of killing Lincoln....who was going to be assassinated anyway ? Come on, now. That doesn't make a bit of sense. Why go to all that trouble to assassinate someone who was already in history, going to be assassinated ? Either it's just another case of really sloppy writing, and the writers not really knowing what Flynn was up to in season one themselves, or they knew exactly: Flynn had to eliminate Lincoln before Rittenhouse recruited him(by blackmail, just like they recruited others, most likely). I mean, can't you imagine someone with Lincoln's influence, working for them? That alone would have changed American History irrevocably.Sadly, why a man who isn't stupid-and Flynn is not-would waste his time going back to do something that had already been done, will probably never be answered and we'll never know why he'd risk his life (which is what he was doing-whatever the reason for assassinating Lincoln-it was important enough that Flynn risked his life to do so). There had to be  more to it that "oh, there's Lincoln. Let me shoot him." If Flynn has been against Rittenhouse this whole time, the ONLY view that really makes sense, is that Rittenhouse wanted the opposite to happen: they wanted Lincoln alive. And it wasn't to get his autograph, either.

 

Lincoln was at worst collateral damage to Flynn.  As I recall, Lincoln was just one part if a bigger assassination plot to take out not only him, but also Grant and two other men including Lincoln's vice-president (and that part actually IS historically true), and it was the other men whom Flynn really wanted taken out.  When that part of the plan failed because Boothe was incapacitated, Flynn probably figured that since he couldn't change history, he might as well make it by doing what Boothe was supposed to have done and for which Boothe ended up getting blamed anyway.

And as for "innocent blood"?  Jesse James was far from innocent.  And the Rittenhouse goons whom Wyatt killed in the line of duty weren't exactly choirboys, either -- and in every single one of those situations where Waytt killed them, it was either kill or be killed for him or for someone else.  The only time when that wasn't the case was in 1983, and that was an accidental death.  At worst, Wyatt would have been legally guilty of involuntary manslaughter, not murder, because he did not specifically intend to kill the man he was chasing.

Similarly, it was the same kill-or-be-killed situation with the Rittenhouse goon whom Rufus killed in 1969 and the soldier whom Lucy killed in 1918.  In that last case, the choice that Emma and Carol gave Lucy was that either the soldier or Lucy was going to die, and Lucy knew that if she refused to kill the soldier, she'd be Emma's second target after Emma finished the soldier off because she'd have proven Emma's point that Lucy was an expendable liability whom not even Carol could protect -- you heard Emma complain to Carol in Sunday's episode that Emma wouldn't have failed in 1955 if Carol had allowed her to kill Lucy in 1918.  A choice like the one that Lucy had in 1918 is truly no choice.  Would you rather that Lucy had blown her cover and made herself a martyr right then and there?

Edited March 21, 2018 by legaleagle53

[IWantCandy71]

Yeah, I'm not going to get into "Lucy and Wyatt have justifications for blowing someone's brains out, but Flynn doesn't". I've got better things to do.

[thuganomics85]

Man, I never knew Nascar would end up being part of Rittenhouse's grand plan!  Of course, it really was more that all those car executives where there, and they were hoping to take out the entire group, and monopolize the industry, I guess.  You some greedy little bastards, Rittenhouse!

Fun episode, and a pretty good one for Wyatt.  Got a kick out of him being the knowledgable one this time, and fanboying over everything.  Wendell Scott was pretty cool, and I'm definitely going to make time and learn more about the real Wendell.  And I'm totally going to believe that Rufus nodding to him is going to lead to Wendell being the one to start that trend!  Oh, time travel!

Things were less fun back in the present though.  Jiya is still having crazy visions, which seem to include seeing the future (err... past?), which will probably be troubling.  And now Christopher and Connor are at each others' throats since she won't allow him to make any public appearances and save his reputation.  I understand keeping a lid on things and playing it safe, but Christopher needs to find a better way at handling him.  Because he certainly isn't one to underestimate.  The dude built a fucking time machine, of all things.

So, Nicholas/Grandaddy Preston's big plan is to basically cull the population and allow only the ones he deem worthy to survive.  Complete with a crazy mural outlining his grand plan.  Very evil dictator of you, dude.  No surprise, Emma looked turned on by all of that, but Carol was definitely having "Oh, shit, maybe aligning myself with the crazy, murderous cult isn't all that is cracked up to be!" moment there.

Right now, Goran Visnjic is getting some of the easiest paychecks of his career, but I have to imagine Flynn will factor in more later this season.

[bros402]

2 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Lincoln was at worst collateral damage to Flynn.  As I recall, Lincoln was just one part if a bigger assassination plot to take out not only him, but also Grant and two other men including Lincoln's vice-president (and that part actually IS historically true), and it was the other men whom Flynn really wanted taken out.  When that part of the plan failed because Boothe was incapacitated, Flynn probably figured that since he couldn't change history, he might as well make it by doing what Boothe was supposed to have done and for which Boothe ended up getting blamed anyway.

Seward (Secretary of State) was the third assassination target

[Manda317]

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

On re-watch the episode makes less sense than the first time around. Why would Flynn have any information about one of the Rittenhouse sleeper agents? They weren't placed there until after he was already incarcerated and Emma took control of the Mother Ship. Even assuming that information magically appeared in his notes or the famous notebook (what happened to that anyway?) wouldn't they have already been confiscated by Denise and the government? Wouldn't they pretty much already have all the written info Flynn possessed? They're trying really hard to keep Flynn relevant (let's face it, Visnjic's the strongest actor on the show) but they wrote him into such a corner last season he really has no value to them.

You make a good point about Flynn. I love Flynn and am really happy that he is still on the show, but he shouldn't have any information about the sleeper agents. They should have had him plan for the possibility that he would be betrayed, so he hid the notebook or destroyed it so that he is the only one who knows what Lucy said. That way it would make sense for them to reach out to them about the goals and ideas of Rittenhouse. Keynes ideas would be included in the history of Rittenhouse, so Lucy probably talked about them and gave insights. Flynn could argue for release and electronic monitoring in exchange for the location of the journal or it's information. Lucy could also push for them to help save Flynn's family in exchange for the help which is what she was trying to help Flynn do when he was arrested.

[Clanstarling]

On 3/19/2018 at 7:32 AM, albinerhawk said:

Overall I enjoyed the episode, but one of the timey-wimey elements bothered me. If Wyatt knew about the Rittenhouse racer, whose name is escaping me, wouldn't his actions already been in the past and known by Wyatt? So then wouldn't the explosion at the Darlington 500 already happened? It was their going back into the past that changed it. So what are the rules there?

I going to comment on that - but your comment is much better than mine would have been.

On 3/19/2018 at 8:41 AM, Raja said:

Right now the time travel theory rules  seems to be Quantum Leap like, with killing

Sounds like the pitch for the show!

On 3/19/2018 at 12:27 PM, tennisgurl said:

This show, in a lot of ways, reminds me of the The X Files, in that the MoTW stuff is a million times more interesting than the conspiracy arc.

Thank you! I thought I was the only one who preferred the MoTW on that show.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Anything that tramples on people's rights and agency to remake the world in its own image "for the greater good" is anything BUT the greater good.  

Yes but we don't know if Rittenhouse wants to trample on people's rights. For all we know they want to make our current government less corrupt and give us (and themselves) greater freedom. Let's face it: once upon a time, "world domination" was this big scary thing all movie villains threatened the good guys with. Unfortunately, that just doesn't wash when your Big Bad is so ill-defined and the current world is crap anyway. They really need to spell out exactly what Rittenhouse wants the world to look like before I can vote for them or against them. The fact that they simply want to change things isn't enough to scare me. Hell there are plenty of things I'd like to change myself. I might be the perfect Rittenhouse recruit for all I know. That would actually be a great twist: Rittenhouse are the good guys and Lucy & Co. are the bad guys trying to stop them from doing good. I mean, is it really such a stretch that our government is actually the bad guy? Look what Denise just did to Mason.

Edited March 21, 2018 by iMonrey

[Shanna Marie]

28 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yes but we don't know if Rittenhouse wants to trample on people's rights. For all we know they want to make our current government less corrupt and give us (and themselves) greater freedom.

I'm not inclined to think the best of people who use murder to carry out their plans to make the world a better place. Even if those car executives were corrupt, sending a suicide bomber to blow up the reviewing stand isn't the action of a group trying to make the government less corrupt and give everyone more freedom. A more benign organization might have done something like put someone in place with enough future knowledge to make a fortune on the stock market and then buy out those companies. These people were using murder that stood a high risk of collateral damage. That strongly suggests that Rittenhouse isn't the good guys.

[mythoughtis]

 Im not inclined to be a fan of an organization that will stop st nothing to get what it wants..,

killing Flynns family 

breeding Lucy for their purposes down the line

threatening to kill the woman that The three helped escape to Japan 

Sent in sleeper agents to change the past to change things that already happened for their benefit( our 3 are changing things inadvertently while trying to prevent Rittenhouse from changing things.  ) 

threatened Masons and Rufus’s families.  

[Camera One]

I found this episode very enjoyable to watch.  There was a good mix of humor and drama from the 3 main characters on the mission, and Wendell Scott was a great guest character.  As with last year, I'm mainly watching for the mission-of-the-week.  I found the Rittenhouse stuff more annoying last year because it was so cryptic.  This year, their plan is more concrete so I find it less irritating, but as many have said above, their plans don't make a whole lot of sense and there's still a complete disregard for unintended consequences for the changes they make in the past.  I also found it unlikely that Flynn would know a random address even though the sleeper agents weren't there last season.  I don't really see the point of keeping the character around any longer.  The Connor subplot was a dull distraction, since the character was never very developed in the first place.  It seems like he might go for revenge against Agent Christopher now, which seems like unnecessary drama I don't want to watch.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Camera One

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Connor subplot was a dull distraction, since the character was never very developed in the first place.  It seems like he might go for revenge against Agent Christopher now, which seems like unnecessary drama I don't want to watch.

Or he is/becomes a Rittenhouse pawn.

I'm pretty sure I said this last season too, but Rittenhouse ruins the show for me just as Red John ruined The Mentalist for me. I realize in both cases that I should just not watch, and yet, because of an attraction to the initial hook (time travel) and a few engaging weekly character beats, here I am. But I don't know that I'll continue to watch the show. 

In contrast to this show's villainous organization, Battlestar Gallactica (2004) began each episode with a voiced over montage that explained who the Big Bads were, where they came from, what their motive was. Is that too much to ask from a scifi show?

Edited March 22, 2018 by shapeshifter

[CooperTV]

27 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Or he is/becomes a Rittenhouse pawn.

Like he was throughout the last season until like, two episodes before the end. I really hope they're not doing this again. Oh wait, they're trying to whitewash Flynn and have their Big Bad have "Vague Evil Plan of Vagueness" for 18 episodes now. *sigh*

[Clanstarling]

On 3/20/2018 at 3:57 PM, UNOSEZ said:

I don't know why.. And not sure how they could retcon this in.. But I'd love if Rufus' dad or at least his dad's side was rittenhouse... One it would kinda tamp down on making Lucy the golden child  which can get kinda boring and two.. It would add some color ( pun intended)  to rittenhouse cuz as it stands I only remember one person of color being attached to  rittenhouse and she was trying to run away. Rather not have the big bads also be loony race haters as well.. Cuz how would Emma and Carol really be down with that.. Neither seem the type... Three Rufus' reaction would be priceless 

I'm trying to remember Rufus' family situation. I remember a mother and a brother, all very close. But I don't remember a father. He could still be of Rittenhouse descent w/o it being a retcon. I think I remember the woman who was running away was from a solid lineage of Rittenhouse believers.

Even if the big bad in a show is a huge organization with a clear purpose, I find I get bored with it - make it too big, too powerful, and it is hard to believe the heroes can prevail. It's only interesting to me if there is some real insight to the individuals in the organization. And so far we've had the equivalent of twirling mustaches and smell the fart acting.

[IWantCandy71]

I think this show actually reminds me a bit of Sherlock. People talked about how brilliant it was and it was wildly popular. And the first series was good. After that, let's just say the flaws were impossible to ignore to the point that the show not being very good at all, became more and more evident. So it is with Timeless. Rittenhouse is already annoying. Truthfully I was tired of them by halfway through last season. Problem is that none of the three principal actors are strong enough to carry this show on their own. None of them have the charisma of a Scott Bakula. Goran comes close, but three main males are not needed on this show. So you've either got to kill one of them off or they leave the team ( would not shed a tear to see Wyatt gone at all) or get rid of Denise (I am good with that) and Conor, and make Flynn their leader or commander of sorts after they end Rittenhouse. But then, the only reason this particular group is doing what they are doing, is because of Rittenhouse. You either have to keep Rittenhouse or introduce another Big Bad, or you have to revamp the format of the show and make it just about time travel. But even Quantum Leap and Dr Who are not just time travel shows. You need an adversary- though it doesn't have to be a person- for these kinds of shows. Even if you just have the adversary or conflict be different for every episode, you need one. Without one, there's no point.

Edited March 22, 2018 by IWantCandy71

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, IWantCandy71 said:

Rittenhouse is already annoying.

Rittenhouse is all there is.

We visit WW-I and Madam Curie, and... nothing.  Virtually no WW-I action, virtually nothing about Curie.    We visit the NASCAR races, and... Wendell Scott does virtually nothing.

It's all about Rittenhouse now, and will be nothing byt whack-a-mole from now on, as one Rittenhouse mole after another pops up to get whacked.

Bo-

-ring!

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

show is a huge organization with a clear purpose, I find I get bored with it - make it too big, too powerful, and it is hard to believe the heroes can prevail. It's only interesting to me if there is some real insight to the individuals in the organization. And so far we've had the equivalent of twirling mustaches and smell the fart acting

™Joey Tribbiani (of Friends) School of Acting

[Camera One]

Quote

It's all about Rittenhouse now, and will be nothing byt whack-a-mole from now on, as one Rittenhouse mole after another pops up to get whacked.

I actually don't mind that.  This is an Eric Kripke show so I'm not expecting any developed worldbuilding or clever plot twists.  I'm watching for the team and the time travel/costumes/sets/culture shock, so I've always tolerated the stuff with Rittenhouse/Flynn/Emma/Connor/Gov't agency politics as a necessary evil.  As long as those components don't eat up more screentime than it already does, I'm fine with the show.

[possibilities]

I can't even remember why Rittenhouse killed Flynn's family, it's been so long since that reveal. I have decided to let Rittenhouse just be staticky noise that flares up now and then on the show, and not try to make sense out of it anymore.

I am wondering if the affection for Flynn comes from his character here, or if it's residual love for GV. I'm not really seeing anything about him that makes me like him, and the only thing I've seen GV in is ER, and I don't really care about the actor one way or the other. I feel like they replaced Flynn with Rittenhouse to up the ante. Before, it was a rogue actor on a revenge mission. Now they're fighting an entire shadowy conspiracy. I also thought they wanted to make Flynn a good guy, but they haven't really done that so far, what with locking him up and speaking to him like he's scum.

I think I just like the team bonding, their adventures in history, and the fun they have with historical figures.

I think it would be possible to have an over-arching mission I would be invested in, but they have not managed to write it well enough to really achieve that for me, so I accept the Rittenhouse premise they've given us, but find it irritating.

[DeafAngelboy23]

Finally I’m caught up to all episodes of Timeless after a week of binge time. It’s cool for the show to visit “The Lady in Black” & it’s one of my favorite races in NASCAR every season. It used to be held twice in spring and fall then the stupid lawsuit by Ferko ruined the tradition. 

 

Currently... The Bojangles Southern 500 is an annual Labor Day weekend event with throwback theme. 

[sarthaz]

This episode took me three tries to get through, because I just can't focus my attention on it. I guess that means I don't like it. I want to enjoy it, but it's just too tonally inconsistent. One minute, it's "Oh, Boy" Quantum Leap, and the next it's 5th Season Supernatural with an apocalypse around every corner.  I just don't know what I'm watching.

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

I can't even remember why Rittenhouse killed Flynn's family, it's been so long since that reveal.

To punish him for exposing Rittenhouse and Mason in the first place.  Flynn was a whistleblower at Mason Industries.

[bros402]

4 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

To punish him for exposing Rittenhouse and Mason in the first place.  Flynn was a whistleblower at Mason Industries.

Flynn worked for the NSA and saw things about an organization called Rittenhouse in intercepts