S15.E13: A Little Place Called Aspen

[LeighLeigh]

Random observations:

Loved seeing Chris. Wished he had a talking head. I miss his voice.

Shocked that Joe S. was booted out. Did not see that one coming. His bread did look dry, though.

Happy for Adrienne, Girl Power and all that, but her dish looked yucky to me and I would rather have eaten Joe's dry bread-not-fancy-toast.

Tom fell in love with Flamm during Restaurant Wars. I think that he is still infatuated.

 Loved seeing/hearing about Joe's wife, Hillary. I am happy for him. 

Joe F's dry humour is a family trait. His mom is hysterical as well (she comments on everyone's Instagram).

Padma's stylists could do better. I would love a separate section for her wardrobe  misses.

Can't wait to see Fatima next week.

[Wings]

13 hours ago, spiderpig said:

Mustache Joe made a classy exit and I was proud of him.  Now trim those stupid waxed curly ends. 

Or buy an accordion.  

[bobbobbob199]

8 hours ago, hkit said:

The unwillingness to see it as sexism is why this problem exists. 

People are too quick to blame without understanding the situation. The two chefs demonstrated in the incident in question, Jonathan Waxman and Jonathon Sawyer, have cooked in numerous food festivals with Bruce, Waxman has judged cooking competitions with Bruce, they know each other and maybe even communicate regularly.

I'm all for women chefs, and I don't discredit Adrienne's statement (I'm sure there were scenes the episode did not show, maybe with non-chefs), but the interaction between Jonathan Waxman, Jonathon Sawyer, and Bruce was not sexist. The three simply knew each other (as many chefs knew Bruce) and they definitely did not know who Adrienne was so they greeted Bruce first and probably assumed Bruce was the chef. And according to someone who was there, the "sous chefs" served their own dishes too. So to the attendees I guess it wasn't really important. The situation would have been the exact same had Bruce been an equally prominent chef that happened to be female.

Edited March 2, 2018 by bobbobbob199

[worleybird]

So what has been the purpose these last few eps of the split screen during one of the commercial breaks with a Behind the Scenes (where we can't hear any audio) and a Bravo promo (last night was for Married to Medicine)?

[carrps]

15 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Gosh, I wish I could take you fishing and show you the sheer joy of catching and then cooking fresh fish yourself.  There's nothing better in the world, truly! 

 

Or you could just take people's word for it that they don't like a particular activity. Nothing personal, but it bugs me when people push their "sheer joy" on people for whom it's "sheer agony." I've been taken fishing a number of times by different people who all promised I'd love it this time. Nope. Nopity nope.

Still friends, though? :-)

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, carrps said:

Or you could just take people's word for it that they don't like a particular activity. Nothing personal, but it bugs me when people push their "sheer joy" on people for whom it's "sheer agony." I've been taken fishing a number of times by different people who all promised I'd love it this time. Nope. Nopity nope.

Still friends, though? :-)

Of course!  To each his own.

But, how would anyone know if they loved it or hated it, if haven't actually gone fishing?    You don't care for it, so fine.  For those of us who love it, a bad day fishing is better than a good day doing most anything else. 

I am such a fish snob (because I can't bear the thought of fish that's been out of the water for more than six hours or so) that I rarely order it in a restaurant, unless I can actually see it first.  And besides, the kind of fishing I mostly do (offshore)...you do a lot more fishing, than catching, which basically means trolling around, and gabbing with your friends and family, catching the sights and soaking up rays.  One could fairly describe it as hours of not much, punctuated by periods of pure mayhem and adrenaline pumping insanity.   When it's a huge dolphin (Mahi for the tourists) or a wahoo (a better eating fish does not swim in the oceans)....or the best, a billfish, it's beyond thrilling.  Can't think of much I'd rather do.

In this challenge, JoeStache & Adrienne had never fished before...I think I heard JoeS say he'd never even fileted a fish, which I found odd.  Not sure about Flamm, tho.

I'm kind of on the fence about the finale, but upon final reflection, I'm in Camp Flamm.  He has a sailfish tatt on his arm. 

BTW....Tom Coliccio is an avid angler...he has a YouTube channel of his outings with his chef friends....for those here who are not angling averse.  It's not bad at all, if you like that sort of stuff.

[chiaros]

40 minutes ago, Wings said:

The toast in Sasto's dish needed to be buttered for sure!  What is the matter with some of you?  Don't make me come over there.  Dry toast separating two beet layers, oh hell no.  

Speak for yourself. If you turned up on my door berating me for toast without butter in a dish highlighting beets - I would tell you to get lost.

[jpgr]

6 hours ago, Totale said:

Adrienne put me off from the beginning with her constant recitation of her resume, and I agree with whoever above said she cooked to the middle and kept her head down all through the first half of the season.  

But to me this is the perfect illustration of Adrienne's journey! She came in thinking her resume was enough, but still being very deferential to the great chefs she worked for, and that didn't get her any accolades or success in the competition (other than for her knife cuts in the Olympic episode). When the lightbulb went off, that she needed to take what she learned from all these chefs and apply the skills to her own food in new ways, that's when she started doing much better and found her voice. I think she can combine the authority of mastered technique with her warmth, history, and unique perspective to be an amazing chef and is worthy of the Top Chef title.

[meep.meep]

2 hours ago, Wings said:

The toast in Sasto's dish needed to be buttered for sure!  What is the matter with some of you?  Don't make me come over there.  Dry toast separating two beet layers, oh hell no.  

The most appropriate thing Sasto could have used on his bread was bacon fat to keep up the cowboy theme, but that wouldn't have gone with vegetarian.  Some people would have questioned use of butter for a vegetarian dish as well.  Olive oil and garlic would have been nice.

The beets on the other hand?  Yuck.

I've never seen anyone look as checked out as Chris did.  What was he eating the whole time?  Something big and green.

It's nice when Padma's assets get their own chance to shine.

[Wings]

Vegetarians eat dairy, this wasn't  vegan.

[LeighLeigh]

Brother posted a photo of himself cooking in the cowboy cauldron. All of the cheftestants were there to not give away who the final three were.

I think they did that for the onion soup fancy toast challenge as well. The other chefs were cooking in the street as well to not make the final few too obvious.

Edited March 2, 2018 by LeighLeigh

[ratgirlagogo]

7 hours ago, AriAu said:

It was a VERY stocked pond and I'm surprised that someone didn't just use the net to scoop one up...especially Adrienne as the time was ticking away.

Not legal in Colorado and  many other  states, with some geographically limited exceptions for  some Native tribes.

 

3 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

Those "cowboy kettles" looked REALLY hard to cook on.  There was really no way to mitigate the amount of heat, other than moving things around the grill top, and it looked like that oak was burning HOT HOT HOT".  I was kind of surprised there wasn't some sort of "step" kind of device to use to raise the pots to lower the heat, even on the edges that fire looked really almost too hot to work on.

    Older cookstoves all required a lot of moving stuff around, is my impression - I know the old potbelly castiron stoves do.  A lot of modern glasstop ranges are the same (just another reason I hope I never end up getting stuck living in a place that has one).  

6 hours ago, candall said:

I watched the last two episodes back-to-back, so I was too disappointed about Carrie to decide among the Final Three.  What a shame--Carrie would have really shone with trout fishing, cowboy cauldrons and being inventive with a veggie-only hard left turn.

Yes, I was thinking just the same thing.   Joe F knew what he was doing when he chose her as his sous - she already had experience working with the cowboy cauldrons and that had to be huge.  Probably the main reason he was able to incorporate smoke flavor in his dish.

Edited March 2, 2018 by ratgirlagogo

[LotusFlower]

2 hours ago, bobbobbob199 said:

I'm all for women chefs, and I don't discredit Adrienne's statement (I'm sure there were scenes the episode did not show, maybe with non-chefs), but the interaction between Jonathan Waxman, Jonathon Sawyer, and Bruce was not sexist. The three simply knew each other (as many chefs knew Bruce) and they definitely did not know who Adrienne was so they greeted Bruce first and probably assumed Bruce was the chef.

And why would they assume Bruce was the chef?  Therein lies the sexism, Bob.

[Norma Desmond]

I didn't watch the episode, but am happy to learn that Mustache Joe went home. Yay. A little joy in such an awful season.  Adrienne sucked almost the whole season, getting marginally better, I mean, "hittting her stride",  two episodes ago and Joe Flamm never wowed me, so, IN MY OPINION (it's fine if you disagree) this was the worst season ever, and, like in the Jeremy x Amar season,  I'm skipping the finale.

[bobbobbob199]

36 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

And why would they assume Bruce was the chef?  Therein lies the sexism, Bob.

Because they KNEW Bruce was an executive chef of a well known restaurant. And usually executive chefs of their own restaurants don't work as sous chefs for someone else. They didn't know if Adrienne was an executive chef or not. Especially the two attendees shown (Waxman and Sawyer) who have done lots of events with Bruce, all three as executive chefs. If you know someone is an executive chef, and have seen them in such a role many, many times, you assume they are the chef, man or woman.

Again, their may have been other interactions that day that were sexist in which unknowing guests who didn't know who anyone was assuming Bruce was the chef BECAUSE he was a man (although it may also be the fact that he looks much older)...but I don't blame anyone who knew Bruce personally because chef of his caliber does not work as a sous chef for someone else. Nothing shown in the episode itself was sexist.

[Jextella]

4 hours ago, LeighLeigh said:

Tom fell in love with Flamm during Restaurant Wars. I think that he is still infatuated.

1

So did I (major crush goin' on here).

4 hours ago, LeighLeigh said:

Joe F's dry humour is a family trait. His mom is hysterical as well (she comments on everyone's Instagram).

1

I don't do social media, but I will check this out.

That fact that grams was sent to the family dinner speaks volumes about the juju going on in that family.

[LotusFlower]

16 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

Because they KNEW Bruce was an executive chef of a well known restaurant. And usually executive chefs of their own restaurants don't work as sous chefs for someone else. They didn't know if Adrienne was an executive chef or not. Especially the two attendees shown (Waxman and Sawyer) who have done lots of events with Bruce, all three as executive chefs. If you know someone is an executive chef, and have seen them in such a role many, many times, you assume they are the chef, man or woman.

Knowing Bruce was irrelevant.  They knew they were participating in a cooking competition, so they should have looked at all the chefs serving food that day as competitors, all on an even playing field.  

[Wings]

I am not sure Bruce is high calibur. Good sure, but looking at the menus in both of his restaurants I would, good hearty fare but not all that special.

[bobbobbob199]

6 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

Knowing Bruce was irrelevant.  They knew they were participating in a cooking competition, so they should have looked at all the chefs serving food that day as competitors, all on an even playing field.  

From the interaction shown it wasn't even clear that Waxman/Sawyer were assuming that Adrienne was not on an even level with Bruce...it only shows that the two gravitate more towards talking to Bruce because they knew him. I think Adrienne's quote was not related to a scene we actually saw in the episode...Top Chef does that sometimes.

 

Just now, Wings said:

I am not sure Bruce is high calibur. Good sure, but looking at the menus in both of his restaurants I would, good hearty fare but not all that special.

Ok Bruce does not cook "high caliber" food but he is well known in chef circles.

[Wings]

5 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

From the interaction shown it wasn't even clear that Waxman/Sawyer were assuming that Adrienne was not on an even level with Bruce...it only shows that the two gravitate more towards talking to Bruce because they knew him. I think Adrienne's quote was not related to a scene we actually saw in the episode...Top Chef does that sometimes.

 

Ok Bruce does not cook "high caliber" food but he is well known in chef circles.

Yeah, I get that  :-)

[LotusFlower]

4 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

From the interaction shown it wasn't even clear that Waxman/Sawyer were assuming that Adrienne was not on an even level with Bruce...it only shows that the two gravitate more towards talking to Bruce because they knew him. I think Adrienne's quote was not related to a scene we actually saw in the episode...Top Chef does that sometimes.

I think Bruce’s comment directing them to talk to Adrienne indicated the commentary was in reference to that interaction.  

[bobbobbob199]

3 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

I think Bruce’s comment directing them to talk to Adrienne indicated the commentary was in reference to that interaction.  

They literally said "hows it going, whatsup Bruce" (saying hi to a friend) and Bruce said I'm just here to be pretty. How is that sexist?

[Jextella]

7 hours ago, Wings said:

I missed how she died.  I think the fact that all the other chefs had their mothers (one grandma) there might have been a trigger. 

I agree and I would not be surprised to learn the judges really wanted to see her in the finals.  Her mistake could not be ignored  

 

Lung cancer - sudden and quick...two months from the day of diagnosis.

4 hours ago, worleybird said:

So what has been the purpose these last few eps of the split screen during one of the commercial breaks with a Behind the Scenes (where we can't hear any audio) and a Bravo promo (last night was for Married to Medicine)?

Seriously. 

[LotusFlower]

7 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

They literally said "hows it going, whatsup Bruce" (saying hi to a friend) and Bruce said I'm just here to be pretty. How is that sexist?

Of course anything’s possible with editing, but Bruce directing them to talk to Adrienne (“You guys can go talk to Adrienne....I’ll just stand here and be pretty”) coupled with Adrienne’s talking head commentary about being overlooked standing next to Bruce make it seem that she was referencing that very interaction.  

[bobbobbob199]

14 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

Of course anything’s possible with editing, but Bruce directing them to talk to Adrienne (“You guys can go talk to Adrienne....I’ll just stand here and be pretty”) coupled with Adrienne’s talking head commentary about being overlooked standing next to Bruce make it seem that she was referencing that very interaction.  

I don't know, but from that interaction (without Adrienne's commentary) I did not see anything sexist actually happen during the challenge. That's my point.

Edited March 3, 2018 by bobbobbob199

[LotusFlower]

11 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

I don't know, but from that interaction (without Adrienne's commentary) I did not see anything sexist actually happen during the challenge. That's my point.

I guess my point is that Adrienne’s commentary served to enlighten or provide insight to what you didn’t see.  One of the things that’s come out of the #MeToo movement is not just how prevalent sexism is, but how it runs the gamut from subtle to overt.  Overt sexism and harassment is easy to spot and criticize; subtle examples - not so much.  But women recognize it, and can speak on the subject.  

[Empress1]

19 hours ago, avecsans said:

I actually hated both challenges. If I had to catch a trout, I would still be in the pond. It was too reminiscent of chopping ingredients out of the ice in the Texas season.  And it annoyed me that the chefs were doubly handicapped in the elimination challenge: no protein and then having to cook on the cowboy cauldron.  I am thrilled that Adrienne pulled it out. She didn’t allow Bruce to overwhelm her with all his ideas and I appreciated that she mentioned how people assumed that she was the sous chef because she’s a woman.  I hate that we still have to put up with this garbage.

 I was worried for Joe Flamm because I don’t think anyone has ever done well using baby vegetables.  I like this final two, but I am rooting for Adrienne all the way.

Not only is she a woman, but she's a woman of color. She gets it twice. I know that life. #I'mNotTheAssistant

I know how to clean, scale, and fillet fish (I really love to do it) but I've never been fishing. I'd have been in there with the nets.

When Adrienne was describing her dish before she made it, I thought it sounded great. When I saw it, I was like " ... Oh." I admire her plan B-ing it but the dish did not look good. Mustache Joe went out classily. I liked his final talking head about taking chances.

[stormy]

I don't know, maybe it's me but Padma's boobs hanging out really bothered me.

Other than that, I was very happy to see Joe go.  He seemed to be wandering around like he didn't really know what was going on.

[StrictTime]

4 hours ago, meep.meep said:

 

I've never seen anyone look as checked out as Chris did. 

My thoughts exactly.  I knew just by looking at him that whichever chef had to cook with him was going to get the PYKAG.

[Lamb18]

I'm watching the show now and haven't read any posts. Well, the quickfire didn't quite descend to the levels of the Texas season where they had to chip food out of ice on skis, but still to catch your own fish and cook it in 45 minutes.

Poor Adrienne, Bruce is taking over her dish although he's just being helpful. Hopefully she's strong enough to stick to her vision. It is funny to see them goofing around in the grocery store. Nice napkin folding skills by Mustache Joe. He's grown on me as the season's progressed. I hope Adrienne does well. I've wanted her to win since the first episode.

At first I thought that was Gail with Tom, but it's someone called Nilou. Tom keeps talking while Adrienne works, she's trying to be polite but needs to get on with it.

I can't believe Joe put a burning log in the beets. He better strain those out good so no one gets embers in their food. I wonder if the elevation is affecting Adrienne's food, since nothing is working out. I hope her adjustments turn out OK.

Ha, there's Ludo from whatever he's been on. Some pretentious twit tells Joe S his food is so well-balanced, he wouldn't even notice there's no meat.

I wonder if they're drinking Coors. No, I think it's a different brew. I think Joe F and Adrienne will make it and Joe S will be out.

Well, congratulations, Joe! The phone call of doom did not curse him. Hurray! Adrienne's in the finale!!

[dleighg]

43 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

At first I thought that was Gail with Tom, but it's someone called Nilou.

I was really trying to figure out what the pattern was on her dress. I thought it looked like cartoonish cats, but that can't be can it? And she also made me think it was Gail for a moment or two.

Gail looked like she had a very uncomfortable head cold.

[biakbiak]

44 minutes ago, Lamb18 said:

it's someone called Nilou.

She was briefly the editor of Food and Wine, her depature was annpunved a few days after this was filmed.

[albarino]

Lotus Flower has a distinct point of view regarding the episode.  I think I can make an ageist argument that the judges automatically assumed the older chef was the contestant, not the sous.  How dare they?!?  

I think Adrienne is lucky to be there; quit looking for perceived slights.  

I'm offended by Padma's attire.  I struggle with the discussion of professionalism amongst fellow chefs versus the sluttiness of the host.

[LeighLeigh]

Adrienne is not only a female who is a female of colour, she is also short. She seems to work so hard to prove herself. Luckily, she comes across as genuine with a great sense of humour.

P.S the Uproxx reviews of Top Chef are hilarious. 

[Thumper]

43 minutes ago, albarino said:

  

I'm offended by Padma's attire.  I struggle with the discussion of professionalism amongst fellow chefs versus the sluttiness of the host.

This.  I don't know that I would call it "sluttiness," but Padma is drawing attention to herself in an unprofessional way.  Maybe that's what TPTB want, but I think it draws away from the show.

[Fiero425]

23 minutes ago, Thumper said:

This.  I don't know that I would call it "sluttiness," but Padma is drawing attention to herself in an unprofessional way.  Maybe that's what TPTB want, but I think it draws away from the show.

She's had a problem with her attire going back to her 1st year in Season 2! I still remember that season, there was a firemen's challenge where she was wearing a denim vest and a sheriff's star! In another episode, the chefs had to cook over open fire-pits on a beach! It was very cold early on, but she was sporting a bikini top, cutoff jeans, and a shearling coat! It was bizarre and very well noted by all concerned! I still don't understand going "GA GA" over her! She's pretty enough, but chef after chef, along with commentary by Tom outside the show, she's the most stunning woman this side of Gina Lollobrigida!; NOT! ;-)

[bobbobbob199]

3 hours ago, LotusFlower said:

I guess my point is that Adrienne’s commentary served to enlighten or provide insight to what you didn’t see.  One of the things that’s come out of the #MeToo movement is not just how prevalent sexism is, but how it runs the gamut from subtle to overt.  Overt sexism and harassment is easy to spot and criticize; subtle examples - not so much.  But women recognize it, and can speak on the subject.  

So we didn't see everything. What we did see (with the two Jonathans greeting their friend Bruce, that is literally all we saw) was not sexist, not even subtly. Now we were not there and Adrienne was so if she says it was I have no reason to doubt her, but I'm sure she had more basis and context for her claims than what was shown.

And the fact that you say women can recognize it, and speak on the subject (implying others can't) is actually overtly sexist in and of itself. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by bobbobbob199

[Fiero425]

Catching the episode "on Demand" since I missed it yesterday being at the hospital with my MOM who's 80! Adrienne truly deserves this just for not giving up in that silly fishing challenge! How did JOE blow it with the most time? ;-)

Edited March 3, 2018 by Fiero425

[mlp]

I didn't see anything sexist about the bit in question.  If the chefs cooking had been, for example, Mary Sue Milliken and unknown young Joe S., I'm quite sure they would have assumed that Mary Sue was in charge.  

I like Adrienne but I hope she doesn't win.  She has certainly been on a journey and "found her voice" and all that but IMO that doesn't make one Top Chef.  It makes one eligible for, as I said once already, the Most Improved trophy.  I'm going to be disappointed if she wins.  I'm also going to wonder how much factors besides cooking affect the judges' decisions.

[xtwheeler]

2 hours ago, albarino said:

Lotus Flower has a distinct point of view regarding the episode.  I think I can make an ageist argument that the judges automatically assumed the older chef was the contestant, not the sous.  How dare they?!?  

I think Adrienne is lucky to be there; quit looking for perceived slights.  

I'm offended by Padma's attire.  I struggle with the discussion of professionalism amongst fellow chefs versus the sluttiness of the host.

Clothing does not convey messages about sexual availability, and if it did, a woman's sexual availability is nothing to be condemned as "slutty." Sexual activity, whether frequent or not is no basis for shaming someone. 

Padma surely has either a stylist from the show or the show's consent for her attire, so by definition it cannot be "unprofessional" if endorsed by her employer. 

What many are ignoring in the Adrienne/Bruce situation is the fact it is not an isolated incident. It is not limited to the limited circumstance of chefs who happen to know Bruce. People assume the man is in charge and the woman is the assistant. 

Ex: I've been practicing law since I was 23 years old. I lost count after my first couple of years of how many times people assumed I was the court reporter for depositions *I* was taking, how many times I was assumed to be the receptionist, secretary, or paralegal, not to mention how many times I was called "sweetheart" "honey" or "babe." So it is unlikely to me, but possible THIS time it wasn't just seismic, but I believe Adrienne when she says it happens to her all the time. Read what Tom Colicchio and Anthony Bourdain have to say about the extremely abusive bro culture in professional kitchens. And please don't dismiss women's experiences when we tell you what we are experiencing. You think we are jumping to conclusions, while you are reflexively defending and therefore perpetuating abusive sexist behavior because it is uncomfortable to confront, in my opinion. Nobody wants to admit their "instinct" is to side with an abuser, but it is about time we ALL examine our instincts and think about how much conditioning and  condoning of historical bad behavior gave rise to those "instincts." 

[spiderpig]

Padma made a point in her book of how TC wardrobe did wonders disguising her weight gain (up to 17 pounds in a season).  Since we just really started commenting on the extreme cleavage in the past two episodes, I'm wondering if the over-exposure isn't intentional to misdirect the eye.

She looks fabulous no matter what.

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, AriAu said:

I've been a Bruce fan all along since he turned out great food, but in the end, he was not the winner, but I loved that he was a big enough person to put the focus back on Adrienne, where it belonged. But....

I'm not surprised that Uncle Johnny thought Bruce was "in" the game rather than a sous. Bruce has a big reputation and a successful restaurant that cooks Jonathon Waxman type food and I am sure their paths have crossed. I am a big Waxman fan (Barbuto is my first stop on every NYC trip) and he has mentored many, many chefs so I'm inclined to cut him a break since we obviously did not see the entire exchange between them. While I agree, it could have been a sexist assumption on his part I think it wasn't, but YMMV.

I agree, plus I read an interview with Bruce where he says he always goes to Barbuto every time he goes to NYC and loves everything chef Jonathan brings out.  So I'm sure the two are already buds of a sort and their bro-fest type hello to each other could have been interpreted by Adrienne as sexism when it wasn't motivated that way.  And I'm a woman and primed to see sexism, so that says something. 

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, bobbobbob199 said:

From the interaction shown it wasn't even clear that Waxman/Sawyer were assuming that Adrienne was not on an even level with Bruce...it only shows that the two gravitate more towards talking to Bruce because they knew him. I think Adrienne's quote was not related to a scene we actually saw in the episode...Top Chef does that sometimes.

That's how I took it, not that Jonathan assumed Bruce was the chef, just that he knew him and recognized him.   I could have missed it but I didn't see the evidence of Bruce being assumed to be the chef and she the assistant.  That may have been Adrienne's interpretation, although we really didn't see the conversation so what was said could have shown her assumption to be true.  But even if true, that assumption wouldn't necessarily be motivated by sexism but based on Bruce's senior status as a chef next to Adrienne.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Yeah No

[LotusFlower]

56 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

So we didn't see everything. What we did see (with the two Jonathans greeting their friend Bruce, that is literally all we saw) was not sexist, not even subtly. Now we were not there and Adrienne was so if she says it was I have no reason to doubt her, but I'm sure she had more basis and context for her claims than what was shown.

And the fact that you say women can recognize it, and speak on the subject (implying others can't) is actually overtly sexist in and of itself. 

I believe you misunderstood what I meant when I said Adrienne saw something that you didn't see.  I didn't mean it literally.  I meant it in terms of her experiences as a woman and as a female chef in a very male-dominated culture.  If you say you have no reason to doubt Adrienne, then believe her!  And believe women when we share our experiences that present unfamiliar points of view.  As @xtwheeler put it a few posts up:

"And please don't dismiss women's experiences when we tell you what we are experiencing. You think we are jumping to conclusions, while you are reflexively defending and therefore perpetuating abusive sexist behavior because it is uncomfortable to confront."

[Yeah No]

3 hours ago, stormy said:

I don't know, maybe it's me but Padma's boobs hanging out really bothered me.

You know I didn't articulate this last week but the main reason Padma's boobs hanging out so far bothers me is that it's like the 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one recognizes as sexism.  I think this is a REAL example of sexism on the show that is going unnoticed - That attractive women on TV are encouraged to expose their potentially sexually stimulating anatomy in order to increase ratings.  And I for one will not believe it doesn't have anything to do with that.  In fact I believe it has EVERYTHING to do with that or we wouldn't have Giada's boobs and every other gorgeous women's boobs ever more exposed every year but a conspicuous absence of male beefcake for women to ogle on.  What's next, actual nipples on display?  Meanwhile the men stay covered up in baggy suit jackets.  Double standard.  And if the women are in compliance with it they are in my opinion only contributing to the sexism!

[Yeah No]

Quote

And please don't dismiss women's experiences when we tell you what we are experiencing. You think we are jumping to conclusions, while you are reflexively defending and therefore perpetuating abusive sexist behavior because it is uncomfortable to confront.

I don't think it's fair to Jonathan, whom I generally like, to draw the conclusion that he was being sexist without knowing what his real motivations were.  I like Adrienne too but just as Jonathan might be capable of being sexist she is just as capable of jumping to conclusions.  Without knowing both sides I can't really say that it was definitely sexist.

[bobbobbob199]

53 minutes ago, LotusFlower said:

I believe you misunderstood what I meant when I said Adrienne saw something that you didn't see.  I didn't mean it literally.  I meant it in terms of her experiences as a woman and as a female chef in a very male-dominated culture.  If you say you have no reason to doubt Adrienne, then believe her!  And believe women when we share our experiences that present unfamiliar points of view.  As @xtwheeler put it a few posts up:

"And please don't dismiss women's experiences when we tell you what we are experiencing. You think we are jumping to conclusions, while you are reflexively defending and therefore perpetuating abusive sexist behavior because it is uncomfortable to confront."

What you said is exactly: "Overt sexism and harassment is easy to spot and criticize; subtle examples - not so much.  But women recognize it, and can speak on the subject. "

Talk about overt! I'm sorry, this statement is one of the most sexist things I have read in addition to showing a complete misunderstanding of what sexism is... Although it can be argued that women are more greatly affected by sexism than men, you are perpetuating the stereotype that sexism is against women and men don't understand it. 

Again the whole argument that we need to hear women because men are being sexist towards them out while not mentioning the fact that we need to hear out men (and non-gender binary ppl, if that's your thing) as well is very sexist, and it's not even subtle.

Edited March 3, 2018 by bobbobbob199

[bobbobbob199]

Anyways, I am very surprised Joe Sasto went home because he had been doing so well. I know you are only as good as your last dish, but that never actually seems the case on Top Chef. 

Joe Flamm's dish actually looked well composed for a vegetable forward dish. Adrienne's dish seems a little bit all over the place with flavor combos, but it was certainly ambitious. Joe Sasto's dish didn't look bad but I'm not a huge beet fan. I'm surprised he didn't make pasta... Maybe pasta outdoors with the cooking equipment was not the best. 

I have no idea who wins it but based on the promo maybe Joe Flamm? Neither Joe Flamm nor Adrienne have been getting a great edit, though Adrienne has the "underdog" edit that may work. 

[LotusFlower]

14 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I don't think it's fair to Jonathan, whom I generally like, to draw the conclusion that he was being sexist without knowing what his real motivations were.  I like Adrienne too but just as Jonathan might be capable of being sexist she is just as capable of jumping to conclusions.  Without knowing both sides I can't really say that it was definitely sexist.

If Jonathan isn’t regarded as a brute, then I’m sure the interaction with Adrienne and Bruce wasn’t intentional, which makes his “motivation” moot.  Take Matt Damon’s interviews on the #MeToo movement in Hollywood, for example.  He’s always been regarded as a pretty progressive and respectful guy, and yet his comments on the matter showed he had no idea what women in his industry were experiencing, and had no understanding of how he was participating in maintaining the male-dominated status quo.  As a powerful man in Hollywood, he simply saw things a certain way.  Similarly, as Adrienne put it, Jonathan saw two chef contestants behind the table and simply assumed the male contestant was the Exec. Chef.  Nothing sinister about it, just someone’s innate perspective.

 

22 minutes ago, bobbobbob199 said:

Although it can be argued that women are more greatly affected by sexism than men, you are perpetuating the stereotype that sexism is against women and started by men.

!!!

[Yeah No]

Don't read into this expression, but I have been saying that Adrienne is the dark horse all this season.  I actually think she has been given a clean edit in the sense that it has at least been neutral.  Same with Joe Flamm.  I don't think it's any accident that they're the final two.  I'm actually not surprised at Sasto going home on this episode.  I think he was the lucky one that was skating through for several episodes, not so much Adrienne.  I also thought that she was at a disadvantage in the fishing challenge because of her small stature and lack of upper body to really get the line out there as a novice.  Plus if there was a threat of bear poop in the fish someone should have mentioned it to the chefs.  I don't think Joe F. or Sasto knew about the danger of raw fresh water fish either, they just got lucky.  If Adrienne wasn't so pressed for time in the first place she probably wouldn't have put out almost raw fish.  I think I would be much angrier about this if Adrienne didn't end up in the final two.  All's well that ends well, I guess.

I can't say that I've loved this season in general, though.  It frustrated and angered me more than a lot of recent seasons.  I have to go back a few years to remember any season that has annoyed me as much as this one.  Several reasons for that include great chefs that did well all through and got snagged on one nitpick dish and lots of accusations of sexism, racism and other hot button issues being swirled about.  Then the general feeling that the judges weren't that impressed with the results, but the nagging belief that the show itself was responsible for some of that by giving them some ridiculous challenges.  And then Padma's boobs.  Not my idea of the best season overall.