S06.E14: Collision Course

[apinknightmare]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

There were definitely four in my book. Lance belongs on that list as well. While not fighting OTA, he, deputy mayor, completely disregarded the best interests of the city to play out Misery. 

Seriously. I'm so disappointed that he wasn't called out on that. 

[Hiveminder]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Oliver Queen is the worst mayor that Star City has ever seen. The city is on the verge of collapse because of $70 million? $70 million is budget dust. A city the size of Star City should have a budget of $1 - $1.5 billion. To cover $70 million you would just hold off on nonessential projects, cut back on some city services, implement a hiring freeze, and maybe temporarily increase taxes. Or you would ask the state or the feds to bail you out.

I imagine Star City’s budget is a little more strapped than most, what with the annual May crises and regular villain/hero fight cleanup costs. Their police new hire processing costs alone must be astronomical. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

21 minutes ago, bijoux said:

There were definitely four in my book. Lance belongs on that list as well. While not fighting OTA, he, deputy mayor, completely disregarded the best interests of the city to play out Misery. 

Right! He was being an asshole. And a creepy pathetic one at that. I was pissed that NO ONE told him, that he still had a daughter that was still living: Sara. Quentin's been acting like Laurel was his only child. Then again, as someone (blanking on the name) stated, he only cares about the child who's dead.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when Curtis was whining about how they (the NOOBS) had "never" been treated as equals. That's because you NEVER WERE EQUALS, you nimrodic maroon. You were the stumbling, bumbling idiot who needed to be trained how to fight, and you still can't. Dong is the one who's the THUG and all he can do is shoot guns, something he has no problem with considering he accidentally killed his wife with a gun. Or was it his gun that was used to kill her? I don't care. And all Dinah is good at is hypocrisy, pouting  and using her sonic scream. And despite being a cop, still needed training.

And UNLIKE this group, the actual heroes in the Marvel universe who had their Civil War? Each had valid points. Each and every one of them ARE HEROES. It's very gray, because most can see both sides. Here? The NOOBS are petulant hypocritical whiny crybabies. And UNLIKE the Marvel universe, no one betrayed another to the government, like Dong did. And Pouty is all like 'how dare you throw that in his face? He's already paid for that!' Yeah? When? How? When all this blows over, he's still testifying. And if he's the only thing the city has against Oliver (crooked DA did say case was like sand or some such and he needed more ammunition), apparently he's not enough. 

And seriously. Oliver has never thought of himself as a hero. So I wanted to punch Dong in the face for trying to provoke him with that and then when that didn't work, he used William's name. Like he's some poster person for what a good parent is. FUCK OFF, Asshole. I hope there's a complication and you bleed out.

Edited March 2, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Honest and serious question: How were Oliver, Felicity and John acting like assholes? I'm not being snarky. 

Black Siren has been missing for days or weeks. At the top of the episode, Dinah tells Oliver she got herself assigned to the missing money case in order to find Black Siren and because OTA isn't sharing info. Unless Dinah is performing a very elaborate and time wasting ruse, Oliver has a reasonable belief that Dinha doesn't have Black Siren. Or at least didn't have her as of this morning. When they go to the alley, they decide the boot print means NTA has Black Siren. Do we think Dinah would be able hold this long con of snarling about Black Siren if she had her the whole time? Yes, she was an undercover cop, but she has a history of losing it in regards to Vince. And everyone on both teams has had histories of lying, so in a certain sense it's a wash. So if OTA thought for a half second, they would have figured out that NTA likely didn't have Black Siren.

But even if OTA thought NTA had her, we've seen Oliver and company burst into actual villains lairs with much more measured approaches than he did with NTA. He just broke in there and started barking at them. And then when Felicity confirms that there are only 6 heat signatures, she undermines that by suggesting they already killed Black Siren. Really Felicity? Rene and Dinah I can buy, but does Felicity think Curtis would be cool with letting them murder Black Siren? It's kind of a jerky thing to imply. So even if I think NTA's actions were worse that doesn't mean that I can't believe that OTA approached it in an assy fashion.

Edited March 2, 2018 by HunterHunted

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

So even if I think NTA's actions were worse that doesn't mean that I can't believe that OTA approached it in the assiest fashion.

Ah, got it. See, I hate the NOOBS so much, that I didn't care that Oliver, John and Felicity barged in and did what they did. I guess that makes me a hypocrite? Don't care. Because I LOATHE, HATE, DESPISE the NOOBS.

Edited March 2, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[doesntworkonwood]

It's a special type of episode when even though you skip all of the scenes with characters you don't like, you still end up being pissed off. 

There was a lot of talk of crossing lines, but the only people who actually did cross any lines were Renee, Curtis and Dinah. Starting with the last couple of episodes and keeping Vincent a secret as well as blaming Oliver and Diggle for his death even though the only people to blame were themselves because they are so incompetent as rational human beings (let alone the superheroes that they pretend to be). 

No apologies, no regret, no shame in their own actions, especially Renee. Everything OTA did was only ever as a response to team shitholes actions. Even then, and with the slight exception of Felicity, they did it in a very measured way. Honestly that last scene with Felicity and Curtis pissed me off because if anyone has the higher ground, it was Felicity and Diggle. 

I don't know what this show wants from me as a viewer. If it's to hate those twats because they're the true villains of this season, I'll congratulate the writing team on pulling off an actual surprise. If it's anything else? I can honestly say that this is the worst ever storyline that this show has done. 

[BkWurm1]

So rewatching because like others have said, the rage got in my way in certain scenes and I missed stuff.  Some of this is just random observations. 

• Why doesn't Oliver and Felicity's kitchen have any upper cabinets?  They don't even have open shelves which would be so easy for the set department to install AND on trend.  Plates are just stacked up on the counter in the corner.   I'm not sure they even have a refrigerator or at least it's not right in the kitchen. This apartment is so badly planned out.  Who would put a giant sliding wooden door right next to the hot stove?  Who would put a bedroom door IN a kitchen?  I swear William must be living in the pantry.    

       I think this is the ONE scene in the whole episode where Oliver is able to smile and look relaxed.  Only for like 5 seconds but it's lovely.  

• The Oliver/Dinah scene after they see BS stealing the money.  Oliver vows he will not let Dinah torture and kill "Laurel".  And Dinah's response is that he better be damned sure he deliver on his threats.  It's framed as if Oliver is the underdog in this confrontation.  Dinah is so positive that she has the superior strength and skills.  But where in the hell does she get this idea that Oliver couldn't take her down?  The smug is thick but it's also really confusing as to WHY she feels this way.  
• I just realized we never got an explanation for where Quentin stashed BS.  I wonder whose cabin it was.  Why was Quentin so sure no one could find her there?  
• Thea offers to go with Quentin as backup when he made up that story about going home so BS could easily come to him to say goodbye before skipping town.  Makes me sad that when the team actually NEEDED back up, she did less to help than Felicity.  
• I don't get Rene at all.  Half the time in the episode he is actually the voice of reason, trying to get his team to focus on getting the money back to the city but then he's the one that is also the most belligerent about OTA and in the actual fight, the one that most seems to support Dinah's quest for vengeance.   
• Both the NTA and the OTA really were slapdash apparently in their initial investigation of the alleyway that BS disappeared from.  
• I love (as in hate) how Dinah thinks that Oliver kicking Rene off the team was punishment enough for him selling out Oliver's secrets and still planning on testifying so as to put him away for life.  Like Oliver should at this point call it even.  
• I know that Rene was actually trying to pick a fight so he could plant the tracker (really Felicity, a built-in automatic tracker detector needs to be a part of Oliver's suit and the whole freaking bunker) but I hate the suggestion that Oliver solves everything by fighting.  It's just so not true.   I mean it's the NTA, not Oliver that thinks they can solve all the city's money issues by beating answers out of BS.  Oliver is the diplomate among them in a list that includes Rene and Dinah.  No one in this group is closer to being a thug than Rene.  Grrr.
• Didn't catch the full meaning before but as OTA is exiting the Helix lair, Dinah basically threatens to kill them all.  And I quote "Just so you know, we are going to find her [BS].  And when we do, you better hope to god you're not there too."  Since we know Dinah's plan is to kill BS, yeah, it seems clear here she's just warned them about how she's fine with killing them too.  And this is because they dared conduct a two-minute search of their lair after not taking the NTA's word about not having BS.  Death threats. Nice.  Stay classy Dinah. 
•  I REALLY hate it's the NTA that gets to grumble about not knowing how they ever worked with the OTA or again complaining about how they were treated as less than full equals.  And at the same time, I REALLY love how the NTA is pretty much not even considered important enough to complain about by the OTA.  Lol, I'm clearly conflicted.     

 

• My recording glitched right before Rene tells the others about planting the tracker (so if I missed anything important, give me a heads up) but this time I caught that he said "Karma is a bitch" about bugging the OTA.  It's a petty detail but Felicity never bugged anyone.  She tracked their freaking phones and read their messaging.  And again, it was because they KNEW one of them had betrayed the team. That Rene is the one yapping on about karma, oh, the only thing keeping me from rage blackout is knowing he WILL get some by the end of the episode.    
• Again I'm struck by how much this episode was written from the NTA's POV and from their POV they are the only heroes that can save the city, they even have the "let's suit up" followed by music and a shot of them each in front of their special dummies wearing their suits as if their commitment and determination is supposed to be heroically inspiring. And usually the ones that get the POV are the ones that are meant for the audience to back, but every comment and assumption coming out of their mouths is such utter bullshit.    And I can't understand where the writers wouldn't be aware that it's bullshit, but it terrifies me that they think it's a legitimate angle to write from.  
• Now they also are writing the episode from the OTA's POV (I love the van scene and I love that Felicity has been out in the field this whole episode) but since they are focused on the mission for the most part and not making personal jabs at the other team, it FEELS like we are getting the NTA POV more strongly.  I just can't figure out if that was intentional or not.  

 

• Dinah crushing the bug, her team's tech still makes no sense, lol.  
• Ok, just breaking down Quentin's theory about BS, that if she'd had someone to support her when things got bad, she wouldn't be a criminal.  Now it stands then to reason that Quentin thinks that HIS Laurel then was just one unsupported bad day from turning INTO a remorseless, psycho killer.  Suddenly everything  Quentin has said about seeing his Laurel in BS makes sense!
• Dinah's rant about being left sitting on the side of the road LIKE TRASH while they let that murderer go free cracks me up.  No one is making you stand on the side of any road. And it's really weird she immediately thinks of herself being like trash in that situation.  And the only reason you aren't in on the mission and that BS is demanding to flee the country is because you want to KILL BS.  If you would just let her be prosecuted, then no one would feel the need to make the deal with BS.  
• No, HOSS, John is not the WHOLE reason you got shot. You are a vigilante and you were shot by a bad guy.  Diggle wasn't able to save you but you know who DID save your freaking life?  Yeah, that was OLIVER!!!  AGHHHHH!  The selective memory and hypocrisy are killing me.  
• Dinah’s reasoning for why they can’t hold back their punches against the OTA makes no sense.  She says “Laurel is a meta.” And then goes on to say that if they hold back against their former friends protecting her that the NTA will be the ones getting hurt.  Huh?       

• So Curtis's justification for risking seriously hurting John was that the OTA was going to hurt the city by letting BS go?  I don't buy the parallel punk.  

 

• I was talking earlier about giving the POV to the NTA and also giving them the heroic music, but during the scene where she's stalking toward BS and about to kill her (so much for getting the money for the city being your plan) she gets the villain is closing in music.  So many mixed messages in this episode.  

 

• I wonder if a scene of Thea fighting was cut.  She's holding her wrist like she's hurt in the scene when Oliver asks if everyone is ok.  
• Curtis to Dinah when he's talking her down from killing BS.  He tells her to look around at what they all were doing to each other and does that seem like justice and she says it's nobody's fault but theirs.  And Curtis says she sounds like Oliver and goes on to babble about how they formed the team so they wouldn't be like Oliver.  And that her killing BS would mean they would start to be like him.  But that has been her mission the whole time and you KNEW what she planned and you backed her and supported her and risked seriously hurting Diggle just so Dinah could find BS and attacked Oliver and a disabled John and let Rene shoot at Thea and Quentin and Felicity all to help Dinah follow through with her vengeance.  You are WAAY worse than Oliver is right now.         

        I feel in part the show is trying to equate Oliver defending himself against the NTA after they crossed the line and came after them with Dinah basically saying Oliver and everyone on his side had it coming for not letting her kill BS.  I don't like that but I trust the audience doesn't buy into it either. 

• I get how the NTA lost Laurel, they had to rush Rene, the idiot that was just getting started, to the hospital and the OTA weren't letting them go after Laurel but not sure how the OTA let Laurel get away unless they all hopped in the van and escorted the NTA to a hospital and just never looked for her at all.  
• Hated the line about Felicity being upset in part because Curtis was messing with their company's prototype.  Doesn't make sense in context.  I guess they brought it up so that we could remember she was still planning on starting a company with Curtis so that when he cut all ties, we could be extra horrified?  It was a huge waste of opportunity not ever showing Felicity and Curtis trying to work together while no longer on the same team.  
• I have extra high hopes that none of the NTA will be in next week's episode.  Curtis says that when Rene is in the clear, THEN they are going to track Laurel down and arrest her.  Since Rene is surely going to take more than an episode to recover after being shipped off to another hospital out of town, it feels really likely that the NTA just plain isn't around next week.  Crosses fingers.
• The DA says his case against Oliver is built on sand and it's only a matter of time before Oliver's lawyer figures it out.  This is WITH Rene's testimony.  So much for anyone that buys Rene's story that since Oliver was already going down it only was logical for Rene to at least not get caught up with him as well.   From the sound of it, even WITH Rene's betrayal, Oliver still wouldn't have easily been convicted which means that Rene's flip was completely self-serving like we always thought.  

Edited March 2, 2018 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

doesn't Oliver and Felicity's kitchen have any upper cabinets?  They don't even have open shelves which would be so easy for the set department to install AND on trend.  Plates are just stacked up on the counter in the corner.   I'm not sure they even have a refrigerator or at least it's not right in the kitchen. This apartment is so badly planned out.  Who would put a giant sliding wooden door right next to the hot stove?  Who would put a bedroom door IN a kitchen?  I swear William must be living in the pantry.    

Because Felicity is short?  A friend of mine had IKEA kitched redux and she is under 5 foot so she had no high up cabinets? I dunno just a guess.  Given earthquakes maybe they don't want open shelves. Here in SoCal I wouldn't have those open cabinets myself. But that's just me and that's my headcanon.

[kes0704]

1 hour ago, Angel12d said:

I mean, it doesn't help that JH is a mediocre actress who can't carry dramatic scenes and thinks being badass is pouting and strutting and glaring but the writing is also to blame here. Just quit. Please. For the love of everything. 

JH’s constant line delivery through gritted teeth and the angry whisper-yelling annoyed me way more than it really should have.  I need someone to ask her to please stop doing that. 

[BkWurm1]

48 minutes ago, bijoux said:

There were definitely four in my book. Lance belongs on that list as well. While not fighting OTA, he, deputy mayor, completely disregarded the best interests of the city to play out Misery. 

He at least has the insanity defense.  Because clearly he'd lost his mind.  

[doesntworkonwood]

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

He at least has the insanity defense.  Because clearly he'd lost his mind.  

They wasted such a good storyline. Another 'fatherhood' storyline vs Quentin Lance's slow decent into madness? I know which one I want. 

[bijoux]

46 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

• My recording glitched right before Rene tells the others about planting the tracker (so if I missed anything important, give me a heads up) but this time I caught that he said "Karma is a bitch" about bugging the OTA.  It's a petty detail but Felicity never bugged anyone.  She tracked their freaking phones and read their messaging.  And again, it was because they KNEW one of them had betrayed the team. That Rene is the one yapping on about karma, oh, the only thing keeping me from rage blackout is knowing he WILL get some by the end of the episode.    

 

 

• Curtis to Dinah when he's talking her down from killing BS.  He tells her to look around at what they all were doing to each other and does that seem like justice and she says it's nobody's fault but theirs.  And Curtis says she sounds like Oliver and goes on to babble about how they formed the team so they wouldn't be like Oliver.  And that her killing BS would mean they would start to be like him.  But that has been her mission the whole time and you KNEW what she planned and you backed her and supported her and risked seriously hurting Diggle just so Dinah could find BS and attacked Oliver and a disabled John and let Rene shoot at Thea and Quentin and Felicity all to help Dinah follow through with her vengeance.  You are WAAY worse than Oliver is right now.         

       

1. I actually thought he said, "Karma, bitch," and wanted to slap him hard for it.

2. By not being successful vigilantes? Mission accomplished. Congrats.

[tennisgurl]

If nothing else, I am kind of enjoying everyone in the fandom, from the Fefe Reddit types, to the comic book fans to the Tumblr shippers to the Twitter action lovers to the egghead TV nerds to us here on Previously, are all pretty much in agreement on one thing: NTA much be destroyed. 

"On any day, we would stand apart from each other! You from the lands of Reddit, who loathes all things cute and blond! And you, of comic sites, who cannot go an episode without mentioning the comic books! And you of Previously, whos snark could power nations! I see in your eyes, the same anger that could take the heart of fans. A day may come, when the riotous fury of fans may fail. A day when our live streams crash! When you break all ties of fandom and liking of each others posts. But it is not this day! An hour of pissed off rants, and angry cat giffs may shatter our keyboards and phones, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that we hold dear, on this good show, I BID YOU STAND, FANS OF ARROW!" 

SHOW THOSE WRITERS WHO THEY'VE SCREWED WITH!

[Cthulhudrew]

19 hours ago, RoseofSharon said:

I missed so much while I was screaming at the screen.  Did Rene actually shoot Felicity?  I thought I saw her grab her arm when she jumped in front of him, but no one mentions anything later.

That's what it looked like to me, but honestly, that whole fight scene was (like so many) SOOOO DARK!!!, that I can't be sure of anything that I saw. Well, other than the typical NTA angst fest, anyway. It also looked like Thea was holding her own arm at the end when they were carrying John, as if she'd been injured somehow, but she didn't even get in the fight (that I saw, anyway).

How has JH managed to keep Dinah in constant Scowl Mode for this entire season? I guess it's true what they say about making a face too long and it freezing in place.

19 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Considering if Curtis didn't exist on the show, Felicity would probably do everything herself that he's done? That shouldn't be a problem. She should be able to come up with something herself. 

Which is what my main problem has always been with Curtis. He's never brought anything to the table that S1 and S2 Felicity didn't already bring. Computer genius? Check. Electronic inventor? Check. Wry commentary? Check. Awkward social skills? All boxes checked.

That said, he was at least tolerable, if unnecessary, the first season or so he was on. Now he's become as deplorable as the rest of NTA.

One other thing- if NTA is tracking you via John's arm, don't hang around and wait for them. You've got at least three vehicles (Quentin's, Thea's, and OTAs). Load them up, go in separate directions. Heck, leave Dig at the cabin, it's not like NTA is going to beat him up. That fight was completely unnecessary. Just like all the whining.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Cthulhudrew

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If nothing else, I am kind of enjoying everyone in the fandom, from the Fefe Reddit types, to the comic book fans to the Tumblr shippers to the Twitter action lovers to the egghead TV nerds to us here on Previously, are all pretty much in agreement on one thing: NTA much be destroyed. 

"On any day, we would stand apart from each other! You from the lands of Reddit, who loathes all things cute and blond! And you, of comic sites, who cannot go an episode without mentioning the comic books! And you of Previously, whos snark could power nations! I see in your eyes, the same anger that could take the heart of fans. A day may come, when the riotous fury of fans may fail. A day when our live streams crash! When you break all ties of fandom and liking of each others posts. But it is not this day! An hour of pissed off rants, and angry cat giffs may shatter our keyboards and phones, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that we hold dear, on this good show, I BID YOU STAND, FANS OF ARROW!" 

SHOW THOSE WRITERS WHO THEY'VE SCREWED WITH!

Oh. Gods. I legit guffawed at this. Well done

[KenyaJ]

42 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

If nothing else, I am kind of enjoying everyone in the fandom, from the Fefe Reddit types, to the comic book fans to the Tumblr shippers to the Twitter action lovers to the egghead TV nerds to us here on Previously, are all pretty much in agreement on one thing: NTA much be destroyed. 

"On any day, we would stand apart from each other! You from the lands of Reddit, who loathes all things cute and blond! And you, of comic sites, who cannot go an episode without mentioning the comic books! And you of Previously, whos snark could power nations! I see in your eyes, the same anger that could take the heart of fans. A day may come, when the riotous fury of fans may fail. A day when our live streams crash! When you break all ties of fandom and liking of each others posts. But it is not this day! An hour of pissed off rants, and angry cat giffs may shatter our keyboards and phones, but it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that we hold dear, on this good show, I BID YOU STAND, FANS OF ARROW!" 

SHOW THOSE WRITERS WHO THEY'VE SCREWED WITH!

Oh, I <3 you! That was magnificent.

[Cthulhudrew]

17 hours ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I read through the comments on the official CW Arrow feed. Maybe this whole civil war storyline is so that Olicity fans and comic book fans bury the hatchet and come together in their fiery hatred of the newbies.  I can see no other narrative purpose to this terrible storyline.

Rene tried to bury the hatchet with Oliver, and all it got him was a trip to the hospital. Ba-dum-tss!

I'll be here all week, folks!

[BkWurm1]

25 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

20 hours ago, RoseofSharon said:

I missed so much while I was screaming at the screen.  Did Rene actually shoot Felicity?  I thought I saw her grab her arm when she jumped in front of him, but no one mentions anything later.

That's what it looked like to me, but honestly, that whole fight scene was (like so many) SOOOO DARK!!!, that I can't be sure of anything that I saw. Well, other than the typical NTA angst fest, anyway. It also looked like Thea was holding her own arm at the end when they were carrying John, as if she'd been injured somehow, but she didn't even get in the fight (that I saw, anyway).

 

1

During my rewatch I even stuck it on slow-mo and it's hard to tell what happened.  As best I could tell, it looks like Rene just narrowly misses her upper arm (her left).  There seemed to be a puff of smoke.  It was close enough that he might have clipped her coat (since there's no mention of a wound, otherwise I would have thought he grazed her arm) but it's all a stunt so it's hard to know what was the intent vs the reality.  She clutches her arms to her middle but I think that was supposed to be in fear.  

Thea is holding her wrist at the end of the fight so either her help got cut for time or she was injured maybe when Rene was shooting at BS, Quentin, and Thea and the front of the garage blew up.  I thought at first the car was supposed to blow up but another angle showed it was the garage.  What did Quentin have in there?  

33 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

One other thing- if NTA is tracking you via John's arm, don't hang around and wait for them. You've got at least three vehicles (Quentin's, Thea's, and OTAs). Load them up, go in separate directions. Heck, leave Dig at the cabin, it's not like NTA is going to beat him up. That fight was completely unnecessary. Just like all the whining.

I don't think they could track him once Felicity rebooted his arm, but yeah, they all should have left immediately.   They didn't have much time to escape since when NTA first caught up with OTA in the van, OTA were less than 6 miles from the cabin but even one minute should have been long enough to run.  Maybe the long dirt road was the only way in or out so they'd be forced to confront them anyway so they decided to stay put?  But that doesn't make sense since they were still trying to get to the cars when they ran out of time.  Did they all take time to go use the bathroom and collect snacks before they left?  

[BkWurm1]

In case anyone was wondering about Rene's injuries.  The doctor talked about his lung collapsing (again) and also a traumatic haemothorax.

Quote

 

What is a traumatic Haemothorax?

Haemothorax is a collection of blood in the pleural space and may be caused by blunt or penetrating trauma. Most haemothoraces are the result of rib fractures, lung parenchymal and minor venous injuries, and as such are self-limiting.

 

1

So internal bleeding in the space where your lungs expand, hence probably the collapsed lung.  

Edited March 2, 2018 by BkWurm1

[tennisgurl]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So internal bleeding in the space where your lungs expand, hence probably the collapsed lungs.  

Nelson voice: "HAHA".

God dang this show has made me mean. 

@KenyaJ @catrox14 you make me blush :) 

Edited March 2, 2018 by tennisgurl

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I swear William must be living in the pantry.    

It would explain why he was so unhappy with Oliver at the start of the seasn.

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I have extra high hopes that none of the NTA will be in next week's episode.  Curtis says that when Rene is in the clear, THEN they are going to track Laurel down and arrest her.  Since Rene is surely going to take more than an episode to recover after being shipped off to another hospital out of town, it feels really likely that the NTA just plain isn't around next week.  Crosses fingers.

I thought that Rene was in the clear at the end of the episode but recovery was going to take time, and since Star City is out of money, they have to ship him to another city.  Are Curtis and Dinah going to wait until Rene is better before they go after Laurel? It makes them seem incompetent.

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

1. I actually thought he said, "Karma, bitch," and wanted to slap him hard for it.

Rene called Felicity a bitch???? Grrrrr.

5 hours ago, KenyaJ said:

So much so that he was begging her to leave Oliver's arraignment (his arraignment, yo) to perform some complicated hack. It doesn't bother me at all that Curtis is a skilled hacker, because his skills have been useful and complementary to Felicity's on many occasions. But I don't buy him "teaching" her anything about hacking at all, the same way I wouldn't buy her teaching him something about his T spheres. 

It's all part of Curtis' delusion. Because all three of them have huge delusions.

5 hours ago, Angel12d said:

So when is this show gonna admit that they can't write for the BC and they should just give up already? They've had 3 tries at this now and Dinah is, unbelievably, the worst one yet. HOW ARE THEY SO BAD AT THIS?

I wonder if the failure of BC V4 is on purpose.  A virtual nose-thumbing at those who insisted this show have yet another one.

3 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Black Siren has been missing for days or weeks. At the top of the episode, Dinah tells Oliver she got herself assigned to the missing money case in order to find Black Siren and because OTA isn't sharing info. Unless Dinah is performing a very elaborate and time wasting ruse, Oliver has a reasonable belief that Dinha doesn't have Black Siren. Or at least didn't have her as of this morning. When they go to the alley, they decide the boot print means NTA has Black Siren. Do we think Dinah would be able hold this long con of snarling about Black Siren if she had her the whole time? Yes, she was an undercover cop, but she has a history of losing it in regards to Vince. And everyone on both teams has had histories of lying, so in a certain sense it's a wash. So if OTA thought for a half second, they would have figured out that NTA likely didn't have Black Siren.

But even if OTA thought NTA had her, we've seen Oliver and company burst into actual villains lairs with much more measured approaches than he did with NTA. He just broke in there and started barking at them.

 

It's possible that Black Siren went away and came back again that morning and that's when Dinah took her.

As for not entering the NTA bunker with any finesse, OTA was just completely fed up with them at this point.  OTA had repeatedly offered to work with them and share information, NTA didn't share and when they turned up to fight they started with a long litany of how awful OTA is. At that point, Oliver and Diggle probably just didn't have any more fucks to give. Much like most of the viewers.

Edited March 3, 2018 by statsgirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

There was also a certain sense of urgency since they knew Dinah was out for blood and if she killed BS the money they needed were gone. There wasn’t exactly time for pleasantries. And assuming Dinah killed her when she’s been talking about that every chance she got seemed the reasonable thing to consider to me.

Diggle is a way better person than I am because if those assholes did what they did to me I wouldn’t have gone to the hospital. Rene got was he was looking for, when he supposedly should be home since he started all this mess because being out there being WD was going to cost him his daughter. I don’t know how the writers think I’m supposed to believe he was only selflessly thinking of her and not being a coward when he knows the FBI can use his secret identity against him, still goes out as WD and we have no idea where his kid even is.

I was kinda laughing at the end when Dinah and Curtis were talking about Oliver like he is awful and they are so much better..I guess when they were so busy praising themselves they didn’t notice Oliver has become a good man in the years while they are becoming worse version of themselves. They went from trying to save the city to caring about a personal vendetta and using someone’s disability against him. 

William bores me, I wish Felicity had more interesting scenes. I’m not going to mention BS/Lance because I’m trying to forget, lol.

Delicity might be my favorite part of the show currently. Their friendship is perfect.

[Primal Slayer]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

The Oliver/Dinah scene after they see BS stealing the money.  Oliver vows he will not let Dinah torture and kill "Laurel".  And Dinah's response is that he better be damned sure he deliver on his threats.  It's framed as if Oliver is the underdog in this confrontation.  Dinah is so positive that she has the superior strength and skills.  But where in the hell does she get this idea that Oliver couldn't take her down?  The smug is thick but it's also really confusing as to WHY she feels this way.  

Since the first day that we met Dinah she was a very confidant person. Even one of her first confrontations with the team she was talking about kicking their asses. She isn't intimated by him so it's very much in character for her to try to play alpha in that scene.

[HunterHunted]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It's possible that Black Siren went away and came back again that morning and that's when Dinah took her.

Except why would Black Siren come back to that same alley? OTA went back to the alley because that's the last place they know she was. They can only conclude that she's on the run or someone grabbed her. If you're going back to the alley for clues you are assuming someone grabbed her right after the fight. Which means that OTA thinks NTA had her this whole time and that Dinah's snarling has been elaborate ruse. Unfortunately, OTA has to make weird logical leaps to make their strange supposition make sense. 

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

As for not entering the NTA bunker with any finesse, OTA was just completely fed up with them at this point.  OTA had repeatedly offered to work with them and share information, NTA didn't share and when they turned up to fight they started with a long litany of how awful OTA is. At that point, Oliver and Diggle probably just didn't have any more fucks to give. Much like most of the viewers.

Here's how I feel about this--it's not enough for NTA to be wrong. I feel like OTA has to actually be right. I think how they came into the NTA bunker was not done the right way. I have to want to root for OTA and I don't. Oliver and Quentin's leadership of Star City is straight deserving of indictment. I've found Oliver's weird dodging to William about being the Green Arrow to be some of the most weasely stupid nonsense Oliver has ever pulled. I found John lying about his injury to be a colossally stupid storyline and not really in character.  Most of the storylines have been terrible this season. The show isn't giving me much reason to like any of the characters. So I'm not going to give passes to legacy characters since so much of what I've from OTA and NTA has been terrible.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Except they found a fresh print..it was wet because NTA was just into the alley before them. It wasn’t a well written scene, it doesn’t work with OTA thinking Dinah left it when she took BS that night since it was fresh and it doesn’t work with OTA thinking they just took her because there’s no explanation about BS being back in the alley again that day.

[BunsenBurner]

I am not a doctor or nurse but.. how can you open a wound 5 months later?  Even bones are mended by then. 

[KenyaJ]

48 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Are Curtis and Dinah going to wait until Rene is better before they go after Laurel? It makes them seem incompetent.

So yes, then?

27 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Delicity might be my favorite part of the show currently. Their friendship is perfect.

Just the best. During the hiatus, I went back and watched all 5 seasons (don't judge me; there was much fast forwarding) and I had so many warm fuzzies from how much they love and support each other. I want an episode where the two of them go out on a mission together, just by themselves. It doesn't have to be the A story, but I need it.

[HunterHunted]

6 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Except they found a fresh print..it was wet because NTA was just into the alley before them. It wasn’t a well written scene, it doesn’t work with OTA thinking Dinah left it when she took BS that night since it was fresh and it doesn’t work with OTA thinking they just took her because there’s no explanation about BS being back in the alley again that day.

This is precisely my point. The narrative requires that OTA comes into the NTA bunker hot and itching for a fight, but the writing is too poor for OTA to reasonably conclude that NTA had Black Siren. So if OTA wants to demonstrate that they aren't hotheads who aren't capable of being reasonable, they needed to slow down and think through what the footprint actually proved. 

[kes0704]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't think they could track him once Felicity rebooted his arm, but yeah, they all should have left immediately.   They didn't have much time to escape since when NTA first caught up with OTA in the van, OTA were less than 6 miles from the cabin but even one minute should have been long enough to run.  Maybe the long dirt road was the only way in or out so they'd be forced to confront them anyway so they decided to stay put?  But that doesn't make sense since they were still trying to get to the cars when they ran out of time.  Did they all take time to go use the bathroom and collect snacks before they left?  

Stuff not making sense is the true villain of #Arrow. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

  Are Curtis and Dinah going to wait until Rene is better before they go after Laurel? It makes them seem incompetent.

They made a blood pact not to vigilante without one another. It's 3 or none. 

[insomniadreams88]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Are Curtis and Dinah going to wait until Rene is better before they go after Laurel?

Of course. They know that they'll likely run into OTA and need Rene there to go, "this doesn't change anything, hoss." Or for him to get re-injured (again) so that they can once again blame Oliver (or maybe mix it up and blame Diggle or Felicity next time). 

Edited March 3, 2018 by insomniadreams88

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, HunterHunted said:

This is precisely my point. The narrative requires that OTA comes into the NTA bunker hot and itching for a fight, but the writing is too poor for OTA to reasonably conclude that NTA had Black Siren. So if OTA wants to demonstrate that they aren't hotheads who aren't capable of being reasonable, they needed to slow down and think through what the footprint actually proved. 

Except when you are running out of time and you know there’s the real danger of Dinah killing BS because she wants and is capable of doing it it makes sense to rush. It wouldn’t have made sense when the danger was real and imminent to stop and calmly think of the options. The facts they had were that they had Dinah’s print on the scene and that Dinah wanted to kill BS. Discussing “this print is fresh so Dinah must have just found her, why did BS come back here?” or “Dinah made me think she had no idea where BS was but she must have lied because here’s a print on what was used to drag BS” would have been out of place in that situation. Either way you can’t know if she has her or not and you have to check even if there’s one chance of that, and you can’t rule it out, before it is too late. It’s badly written not because the characters aren’t calm in a dangerous situation but because the sequence of events is messy. And if being hotheads was the problem with NTA it wouldn’t be such a big deal to me.

[UNOSEZ]

4 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Black Siren has been missing for days or weeks. At the top of the episode, Dinah tells Oliver she got herself assigned to the missing money case in order to find Black Siren and because OTA isn't sharing info. Unless Dinah is performing a very elaborate and time wasting ruse, Oliver has a reasonable belief that Dinha doesn't have Black Siren. Or at least didn't have her as of this morning. When they go to the alley, they decide the boot print means NTA has Black Siren. Do we think Dinah would be able hold this long con of snarling about Black Siren if she had her the whole time? Yes, she was an undercover cop, but she has a history of losing it in regards to Vince. And everyone on both teams has had histories of lying, so in a certain sense it's a wash. So if OTA thought for a half second, they would have figured out that NTA likely didn't have Black Siren.

But even if OTA thought NTA had her, we've seen Oliver and company burst into actual villains lairs with much more measured approaches than he did with NTA. He just broke in there and started barking at them. And then when Felicity confirms that there are only 6 heat signatures, she undermines that by suggesting they already killed Black Siren. Really Felicity? Rene and Dinah I can buy, but does Felicity think Curtis would be cool with letting them murder Black Siren? It's kind of a jerky thing to imply. So even if I think NTA's actions were worse that doesn't mean that I can't believe that OTA approached it in an assy fashion.

Holy crap.. I'm not the only person who doesn't outright hate the boobs and actually sees the faults OTA brought to this clusterfub of a storyline 

[apinknightmare]

4 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Really Felicity? Rene and Dinah I can buy, but does Felicity think Curtis would be cool with letting them murder Black Siren? It's kind of a jerky thing to imply.

Why is it jerky? Dinah's been trying to kill Black Siren for weeks now and Curtis was still working with her and hadn't managed to convince her to stop - he was even helping her. 

[lion10]

7 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

These writers really need to reign it in. Dinah beating Quentin, Rene trying to axe Oliver, Curtis disabling Diggle (It's one thing if those two are in the middle of a fight and he does it to survive but he cast the first stone)...and didn't Felicity get shut? I didn't understand that scene. It looks like she jumped in front of Wild Dog as he was shooting and got hit but nothing came of it.

That's always been an unclear point aboiut what exactly Diggle and Rene are shooting.  I don't think they're just shooting bullets, so what are they?

[UNOSEZ]

2 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Why is it jerky? Dinah's been trying to kill Black Siren for weeks now and Curtis was still working with her and hadn't managed to convince her to stop - he was even helping her. 

Just because he hadn't outright convinced BC to not kill BS didn't mean he wasn't trying.. As was evident every time the subject came up.. I'm sure felicity knows what its like dealing with a stubborn hero

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Just because he hadn't outright convinced BC to not kill BS didn't mean he wasn't trying.. As was evident every time the subject came up.. I'm sure felicity knows what its like dealing with a stubborn hero

So what? Curtis isn't her keeper - there's nothing saying Dinah hadn't gotten to Black Siren on her own and killed her when Curtis wasn't around to stop her. Felicity didn't sign off on all of Oliver's kills before he shot the arrow. 

ETA: Also, I'd argue that there's evidence that at this point Felicity (and the others) probably aren't really sure exactly what NTA is capable of. If you asked them just last episode if they thought that Curtis would ever purposely mess with Diggle's implant, the answer would've been a resounding no. 

Edited March 3, 2018 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I'm watching the episode now and wow you guys weren't exaggerating the awfulness of the Noobs.

They have to be the villains of the seasons. Nothing else makes sense. 

[Chaser]

JH makes KC look like an Oscar winner. Like she's really bad.

BS cares so much about Quentin, she shows no emotion over Dinah smacking him around.

The Delicity is strong in this episode. 

I want Olicity sex.

If William is so advanced in school, why does he need so many tutors? 

Rene is a little bitch. 

The whole BS/money plotline just doesn't make sense.

WTF Thea?! Don't feed the voices in Lance's head!

I don't have words for Curtis and Dinah in that hospital scene. I hate them so much.

That cliffhanger... I don't care. 

[UNOSEZ]

48 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

So what? Curtis isn't her keeper - there's nothing saying Dinah hadn't gotten to Black Siren on her own and killed her when Curtis wasn't around to stop her. Felicity didn't sign off on all of Oliver's kills before he shot the arrow. 

ETA: Also, I'd argue that there's evidence that at this point Felicity (and the others) probably aren't really sure exactly what NTA is capable of. If you asked them just last episode if they thought that Curtis would ever purposely mess with Diggle's implant, the answer would've been a resounding no. 

Fair enough.. But what I was responding about was the comment she made.. Cuz she basically is saying there are only 6 life signs so if laurel was there she had been killed and Curtis was cool with it and just chilling... To which he was a bit offended by

[insomniadreams88]

6 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Fair enough.. But what I was responding about was the comment she made.. Cuz she basically is saying there are only 6 life signs so if laurel was there she had been killed and Curtis was cool with it and just chilling... To which he was a bit offended by

So do you think if Dinah had killed BS and Curtis found out after the fact, he’d have told OTA? Because I don’t. It doesn’t matter if he would’ve been cool with it or not. NTA is supporting each other, even when they’re wrong, just because they want to oppose OTA on everything. 

[statsgirl]

4 minutes ago, Chaser said:

If William is so advanced in school, why does he need so many tutors? 

I thought it was an after-school program, cancelled because of the budget crisis, rather than a tutor for him personally.  My school board had a lo of really interesting after school programs when there was the money still.

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

They made a blood pact not to vigilante without one another. It's 3 or none. 

I thought they  made a pact to make joint decisions.  If it extends to only being a vigilante when it's all three, they're even stupider than I thought. Are they doing it for ego, or to save the city?

It's also hard to believe that Dinah, who is so furious to avenge Vince's death, is going to take off a month or two while Rene recovers.

5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Do we think Dinah would be able hold this long con of snarling about Black Siren if she had her the whole time? Yes, she was an undercover cop, but she has a history of losing it in regards to Vince. And everyone on both teams has had histories of lying, so in a certain sense it's a wash. So if OTA thought for a half second, they would have figured out that NTA likely didn't have Black Siren.

But even if OTA thought NTA had her, we've seen Oliver and company burst into actual villains lairs with much more measured approaches than he did with NTA. He just broke in there and started barking at them. And then when Felicity confirms that there are only 6 heat signatures, she undermines that by suggesting they already killed Black Siren. Really Felicity? Rene and Dinah I can buy, but does Felicity think Curtis would be cool with letting them murder Black Siren? It's kind of a jerky thing to imply. So even if I think NTA's actions were worse that doesn't mean that I can't believe that OTA approached it in an assy fashion.

Oliver doesn't think that Dinah would hesitate to kill Black Siren the minute she got her hands on her, money be damned.  I'm not convinced that he's wrong.

Honestly, Felicity probably doesn't know what Curtis would be cool with these days. She didn't think that Curtis would refuse to share information after he had agreed to; she didn't think that he was going to blame her, Oliver and Diggle for everything he's blaming them for, and she certainly didn't think that Curtis would deliberately cause Diggle pain in order to track them.

Curtis blamed Oliver for hurting Rene when it was Rene who went after Oliver with an axe. I don't think Felicity can be sure of Curtis having any limits right now, including letting Dinah get her revenge on Black Siren.

[JamieLynn832002]

Letting go of how much the newbs angered me for the moment, how stupid is Oliver to use 'I have failed this city' in the meeting at the end? Oliver, sweetie, if you're awaiting trial for being the Green Arrow maybe don't run around using his catchphrase? Or publicly seeking out your child out by name to save while in costume as you did in We Fall? 

[SmallScreenDiva]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Are Curtis and Dinah going to wait until Rene is better before they go after Laurel? It makes them seem incompetent.

These are the people who apparently just sat on their asses for five weeks after they broke up with OTA. So I'm thinking yes.

9 minutes ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

Letting go of how much the newbs angered me for the moment, how stupid is Oliver to use 'I have failed this city' in the meeting at the end? Oliver, sweetie, if you're awaiting trial for being the Green Arrow maybe don't run around using his catchphrase? Or publicly seeking out your child out by name to save while in costume as you did in We Fall? 

This! My jaw dropped and I was yelling "Just tattoo 'I'm GA' on your goddamn forehead then!"

[HunterHunted]

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Oliver doesn't think that Dinah would hesitate to kill Black Siren the minute she got her hands on her, money be damned.  I'm not convinced that he's wrong.

He's not wrong, but I don't think you can extend that same sentiment to every member of NTA. Rene? Yes. He's always been a shoot first ask questions later guy. But Curtis? 

13 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Honestly, Felicity probably doesn't know what Curtis would be cool with these days. She didn't think that Curtis would refuse to share information after he had agreed to; she didn't think that he was going to blame her, Oliver and Diggle for everything he's blaming them for, and she certainly didn't think that Curtis would deliberately cause Diggle pain in order to track them.

Curtis blamed Oliver for hurting Rene when it was Rene who went after Oliver with an axe. I don't think Felicity can be sure of Curtis having any limits right now, including letting Dinah get her revenge on Black Siren.

Felicity is apparently judging Curtis on decisions he had yet to make and actions he had yet to take. At the time she was suggesting that Curtis would be complicit with Dinah murdering Black Siren, Curtis had not yet turned off Diggle's chip nor had he blamed Oliver for Rene's injury. If she wants to suggest that she doesn't know what Curtis' limits might be AFTER all this shit went down, that's fine. But she's basing her accusation on everything Curtis has done before OTA stormed NTA's bunker, I don't think there's enough evidence that prior to the bunker storming that would suggest he'd be cool with murder.

[statsgirl]

Rene is a completely loose canon at this point.

Curtis wouldn't kill Black Siren but with this "one for all, all for one" attitude, if Dinah lost it one day and did kill her, I wouldn't be surprised if Curtis helped to cover it up  rather than turn her in.  They are a team, after all, and completely loyal to each other as they keep saying.

Especially if Rene pushed him to do it.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

Felicity is apparently judging Curtis on decisions he had yet to make and actions he had yet to take. At the time she was suggesting that Curtis would be complicit with Dinah murdering Black Siren, Curtis had not yet turned off Diggle's chip nor had he blamed Oliver for Rene's injury. If she wants to suggest that she doesn't know what Curtis' limits might be AFTER all this shit went down, that's fine. But she's basing her accusation on everything Curtis has done before OTA stormed NTA's bunker, I don't think there's enough evidence that prior to the bunker storming that would suggest he'd be cool with murder.

You're really getting some mileage out of "if Laurel's here, she's not warm." LOL

Anyway, Curtis going along with Dinah and not drawing a line in the sand with her pursuit of Black Siren is enough evidence prior to the bunker storming that suggested he'd be cool with murder. Or at least not doing much about the situation if Dinah had murdered Black Siren on her own, considering they all agreed to stick together no matter what. 

[lemotomato]

39 minutes ago, HunterHunted said:

But she's basing her accusation on everything Curtis has done before OTA stormed NTA's bunker, I don't think there's enough evidence that prior to the bunker storming that would suggest he'd be cool with murder.

In the last episode, Dinah took Quentin's gun from him and shot at BS. Later, with Felicity and Diggle observing, Oliver asked Curtis and Rene to keep Dinah in line, basically telling them to keep her from killing. Curtis shrugs and says "We're not having a lot of luck with that." Rene flat out says "No promises." After that, do you really think that Team Arrow was supposed to believe that Curtis could stop Dinah from doing what she wanted to do? Or that if Dinah had murdered BS on her own and only told her team about it afterwards, that Curtis would turn Dinah in to Team Arrow, especially if Rene was OK with killing too?

Edited March 3, 2018 by lemotomato

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

After that, do you really think that Team Arrow was supposed to believe that Curtis could stop Dinah from doing what she wanted to do? Or that if Dinah had murdered BS on her own and only told her team about it afterwards, that Curtis would turn Dinah in to Team Arrow, especially if Rene was OK with killing too?

Yeah, Dinah’s been off the rails for a while now, and til last night - at the very last minute - no one had been able to get through to her. Insinuating that Siren would only be dead if Curtis somehow allowed it is kinda absurd. 

[HunterHunted]

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

In the last episode, Dinah took Quentin's gun from him and shot at BS. Later, with Felicity and Diggle observing, Oliver asked Curtis and Rene to keep Dinah in line, basically telling them to keep her from killing. Curtis shrugs and says "We're not having a lot of luck with that." Rene flat out says "No promises." After that, do you really think that Team Arrow was supposed to believe that Curtis could stop Dinah from doing what she wanted to do? Or that if Dinah had murdered BS on her own and only told her team about it afterwards, that Curtis would turn Dinah in to Team Arrow?

You've made my point. My argument has always been that OTA has evidence that Curtis is not cool with Dinah murdering Black Siren. I never made any argument that he'd be successful at stopping Dinah. I also don't know if he'd help her cover it up. But the line "We're not having a lot of luck with that" is explicitly stating that he's trying to prevent it and does not approve of it. Whether he's successful at it is another story. However, Rene's "No promises" is a lot more ambiguous and even suggests approval of the murder.

Once again, I'm not saying Curtis could successfully stop Dinah just that he's on record as being against killing BS. But I'm done. My position has been the same. This is getting tiresome.