S04.E06: Pizza Rolls, Gender Roles, and Jazz Rolls

[calpurnia99]

1 minute ago, KellySunshine said:

I don't think Jazz is 'fat'. She has very large breasts and would look significantly smaller if she had a breast reduction.   I think she would have an average body if she was smaller on top. 

The average size in the US is about a 14 -16, correct? It's not like she's a size 24 (I say this as a plus sized lady myself, so maybe my idea of someone being "huge" (as a poster described Jazz above) may be different than another person's idea of "huge".  

One has to consider the affects of the hormones that Jazz is taking, and even if she ate healthy and worked out frequently, she may have issues with her weight simply because of the hormones.

She looks okay- I agree that she does not look morbidly obese.  The issue is how fast she added 40 pounds to her small frame and how she continues to get bigger and bigger.  To those that know her, her appearance is drastically different. Those of us who have a gradual 5 pounds a year gain between age 40-55- that is totally different. To be 16 and add 40 pounds in a year is a big problem. And by her own admission she loves to lay and bed and binge - if she keeps this up, she will be a size 24 in another 2 years.

[Granny58]

40 minutes ago, KellySunshine said:

The average size in the US is about a 14 -16, correct?

I agree that she is top heavy, which makes her look bigger.   Unfortunately, in that age group 14-16  that is still overweight.  I know I will sound ancient, but "in my day" most teen girls were size 7, 9 and 11.  Not all, of course, but most.   We didn't spend our time looking at a screen, as it didn't exist.  

Edited February 7, 2018 by Granny58

[SunnyBeBe]

I thought that Jazz's weight and need to lose was determined by her doctor and based on BMI.    I would think the doctor knew how to do that.  And, if it wasn't correct, I'd bet that Jazz would be all over that.

Significant and sudden weight gain, along with self isolation and binge eating is a recipe for disaster.  In addition to increasing the risks for post surgery complications, it's a huge warning sign for greater obesity down the road.  Jazz and her family have certainly seen My 600 Pound Life.  It's not that out of the realm of possibility for someone like Jazz.  These bed bound people have MANY of the same traits as Jazz, including, a family who caters to their whims, refusal to leave their home, lay in bed and binge eat, refuse to try to get help for their eating disorder, tried diets, but, didn't work, body image issues, feelings of social anxiety, feelings of worthlessness, no work or education plans, reliant on others for all their needs.........Here's a clip on one lady.

https://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/my-600-lb-life/

[Kid]

2 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Average size in the US is still overweight and still has associated health risks (especially in surgeries). Jazz has gained a lot of weight recently due to binge eating disorder which is very unhealthy.

Not only that, Dr. Bowers specifically stated that if her BMI does not come down the hospital will not approve the surgery. So whether or not she’s considered aesthetically fat, and she is - she is not morbidly obese but she is chubby, is not relevant because the doctor and the hospital are setting the rules for health reasons and because of her age.  

Her boobs are bigger than they used to be because she gained weight ( mine are always larger when I am heavier) and she carries a lot of her weight around the stomach as well. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Kid

[Pollo Loco]

3 hours ago, RemoteControlFreak said:

 

18 hours ago, Pollo Loco said:

I also found it interesting that Noelle said she'd have short hair if she could still look female(implying that she wouldn't), yet her voice is very much masculine sounding which, short hair or long, the voice would be a pretty big giveaway.  I'm aware that not every transgender person gets bottom surgery but I would think they'd want to come across as female (ie altering their vocal tone)as they could which is why the decidedly male tone tends to throw me a little aka Kaitlyn Jenner. I'm hoping this doesn't come off as insulting, just genuinely curious. 

Yes, her voice is a giveaway, but at least with long hair she can look a little more stereotypically female. I think that's what she was saying.  Also, you seem to be implying that getting bottom surgery raises the voice. My understanding (thanks Google) is that this is not the case and raising the voice requires voice therapy to learn how to speak in a higher register and/or vocal chord surgery of some sort.

 

Sorry, I reread my post and realized how it read. I meant more along the lines that I thought that even with or without the bottom surgery that a transgender person would likely want to alter their voice so they sound more stereotypically female(or male). Based on your reply, changing the tone may be harder then just "deciding to do it" as in time, money, ability. 

[Scarlett45]

18 hours ago, Pollo Loco said:

I also found it interesting that Noelle said she'd have short hair if she could still look female(implying that she wouldn't), yet her voice is very much masculine sounding which, short hair or long, the voice would be a pretty big giveaway.  I'm aware that not every transgender person gets bottom surgery but I would think they'd want to come across as female (ie altering their vocal tone)as they could which is why the decidedly male tone tends to throw me a little aka Kaitlyn Jenner. I'm hoping this doesn't come off as insulting, just genuinely curious. 

Vocal training is possible, but it’s work and often takes a bit of time to perfect. Noelle may fully intend to try to alter her voice through coaching but she’s still young and perhaps focused on other parts of transition. 

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Granny58 said:

I agree that she is top heavy, which makes her look bigger.   Unfortunately, in that age group 14-16  that is still overweight.  I know I will sound ancient, but "in my day" most teen girls were size 7, 9 and 11.  Not all, of course, but most.   We didn't spend our time looking at a screen, as it didn't exist.  

I was a fat kid/teen and I am a fat woman (16/18 at 5’7), I was happy to hit my growth spurt in middle school so that I could fit into adult plus size fashion (no cute plus size teen clothes at the turn of the millennium) so no I don’t think Jazz is fat in the way I was fat (and am fat) but 40lbs in one year, unless you’ve hit a HUGE growth spurt (as in 5 inches or so) is a lot.

My rotund self would be alarmed at the emotional implications of that. Grief, depression, ptsd etc. I’m more alarmed that at 5’2 Jazz gained 40lbs in one year than I am by how she physically looks (she looks fine but she needs a better bra). 

[stacyasp]

4 hours ago, janedi said:

This episode just makes me continue to think Jazz is purposely sabotaging the surgery,

She has to know leaving school will be a red flag to any therapist who considers writing her a letter.

And there's no way she actually thought Dr Volker was going to write her a letter after she delivered that depressing spiel during her therapy session. And yet she played along with mom expecting the letter to be given that same day. Yeah right.

I think Jazz knows exactly what she's doing.

This kid is smarter than we think

So do you think saying she doesn’t care if she dies a few years early. (because of her binge eating) is akin to wanting to commit suicide albeit a slow way to do it? Cause that’s what it sounds like to me. I think she manipulates everyone with the suicide talk and voila she gets her way, but if my child was that depressed or binge eating or so unstable they would be in therapy immdiately before any surgery takes place!

[princelina]

4 hours ago, janedi said:

This episode just makes me continue to think Jazz is purposely sabotaging the surgery,

She has to know leaving school will be a red flag to any therapist who considers writing her a letter.

And there's no way she actually thought Dr Volker was going to write her a letter after she delivered that depressing spiel during her therapy session. And yet she played along with mom expecting the letter to be given that same day. Yeah right.

I think Jazz knows exactly what she's doing.

This kid is smarter than we think

Or she could be subconsciously self-sabotaging.  I was looking at something else on youtube and saw a video of a young person talking about sex-change regrets, and because of this show I clicked to see what she had to say.  It was a young person who had transitioned from male to female, probably early 20s, and her two points were A. that while she was happy with her decision overall, it's a big deal and completely normal to wonder at times if you are doing the right thing, or even feel regret sometimes, especially since everyone has an opinion about everything, and therefore B.  it's important to take your time and make sure you are comfortable with things, no need to rush anything because you have your whole life.  Now obviously Jazz has no interest in B, but I think as far as A goes she doesn't feel like she could dare, as the "face of transgender youth" and all.  I would think part of the pre-surgery therapy would be discussing possible regrets or worries and working through them - it can't be just sitting on a couch, announcing you've wanted it your whole life, and walking out with a letter!

And what was the deal with the onion and mushroom chopping?  You don't need that to "cook" macaroni and cheese from a box.

[CousinAmy]

Homeschooling means both Jazz and Jeannette will be home more, leading to more time to film. Perhaps the seasons will be longer? It's probably more convenient for the producers (and isn't that what really matters?)

[Maricopa]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

no work or education plans,

I have seen zero indication that Jazz is interested in doing anything with her life except for switching her outie for an innie. I hope there is more positive life direction going on that we are seeing.

[gingerella]

Oy, I totally forgot about the bizarre supermarket outing where she lunged at the cheese samples and Jeanette tried to hold her back and she swiped her hand away and shoved two pieces into her maw before Jeanette cold stop her. That is crazy behavior, and in public no less. Then the whole, I'm eating healthy because I'm about to binge eat an entire box of mac n cheese but hey it's organic so it's healthy! That? Also crazy. But honestly, at the end of the day it's Jeanette's fault, and Greg's too. They are NOT a united front with her, and that combined with Jeanette's enabling has created a really serious situation, IMO...

Edited February 8, 2018 by gingerella

[Visaman666]

Concerning the subject of sexuality, everyone involved in this program has to walk on eggshells, as Jazz is 16 going on 17, and I believe the age of consent in Florida is 18. Plus any depictions or counselling of sexual activities, including masturbation, could be considered child pornography. 

[Bridget]

12 hours ago, Dobian said:

We live in a culture that puts kids in bubble wrap and it shows.  All the coddling, minimizing competition because it's too "stressful", preoccupation with self-esteem.  My daughter had a class where the teacher allowed them to do their presentation to the teacher in private if requested because speaking to the class might cause anxiety.  Great way to prepare them for when they will be required to give a presentation in their job one day.  This generation is poorly equipped to deal with the harsh realities of the real world.

Preach!!!!! (Haven't seen the episode yet, but I had to read the thread!)

I teach high school (and have taught grades 7-8) and I can't tell you how many students would rather not present in class and take an F instead! The few students who do ask to present to me after school either end up not showing or do a craptastic job, so it's still an F. Even students with an IEP (those who are considered part of "Special Ed") get up and rock their presentations. 

Starting in the fall, I have my students (grade 7, 8, 9 or 10, it makes no difference) stand up at their desks when speaking, answering questions or reading to get them into the habit of learning how to read/present to an audience. I explain my rationale and some bitch about it, but that's what they do. They eventually make their way to the front - and it's a great way to get my "attention seekers" to participate.

Not to toot my own horn, but many of my students end up getting over stage fright quickly, but that's all them. I just start the show & they take over. Once it becomes a habit and the kids know it's a safe place with zero bullying, the students are actually supportive of each other. They want everyone to let go of fear and it's only eliminated through practice. They will even gently remind shy students to "stand up - you can do this!"  That is 100% them, not me. Even when they can stay seated, some will still stand up because it's now automatic.

I also loved your thoughts on continued procrastination on Jazz's end and how home schooling is the worst thing her parents could do to her.

Structure from unbiased professionals and other people is what she needs as part of the maturation process. She needs to be on a regular schedule & understand that if she graduates, life is even more difficult. If she can't figure out solutions to her 11th grade social problems, how will she ever learn about sticking with things, looking at concerns through a different lense (it's not always about you), taking risks and making new friends, building some appropriate & normal self-esteem and even seeing what normal friendships look like? She is at the age when most students slack off the most and sadly, so many of them struggle with time management skills to begin with.

Don't get me started on the excuses I hear on a daily basis about true stories of crappy time management! My school is on a block schedule, so I see all of my students for an hour on Mon and during the rest of the week, I see different classes every other day for 2 hours. Kids seem to think HW is optional or similar to a trip to the cafeteria. "I had to do HW for other classes, so I didn't finish my rough draft for this class." Ahhhhhhhn! They have 48 hours to finish HW, but sadly, they don't even appreciate that instead of realizing most other students their age have 24 hours to finish the same thing.

If Jazz flops with home schooling, even failing one class, it is entirely possible that she won't even graduate on time, which should be the huge red flag Jeanette should see (if she ever updates those God awful glasses) and realizes how much she screwed up by giving in - again. I hope and pray Jeanette butts out and allows Jazz to freak out and take ownership of being miserable due to trying to meet deadlines. She has to learn somehow that mom & dad can't bail her out of everything. I also hope Jazz has to do chores now that she's home all day. 

I hope to God there are consequences in place that we're not privy to, like not having surgery, if Jazz makes the choice to fail with school. Why in the hell should her parents reward that outcome?

This might sound cold hearted, but I'd love for Greg & Jeanette to tell Jazz "Once you're earning your own money and can pay for what insurance won't cover, then we can move forward with the surgery." I think if Jazz had to pay for any and all non-approved insurance health care, she'd get her butt in gear while being engaged and understanding about all of the pre-op checklist Items. She'd also appreciate it so much more and take it really seriously.  If she really doesn't understand why she needs to be in therapy (surgery pending or not), she isn't ready for the procedure. She's not going to get her teeth cleaned; this is major surgery. 

[Bridget]

12 hours ago, RemoteControlFreak said:

If it's true that the average size in the US is 14-16 than that means the average woman in the US is fat. There's no way around that. Just because everyone else is fat doesn't mean she's not.

Also, I doubt the average 16-year-old girl in the US is a size 14-16.  

All due respect, you might be surprised by how big teenagers are these days. I have many female students (in grade 10) who are already wearing a woman's size 14-16. These are shorter females too, between 5'2" and 5'3", and many of them are very busty as well. The males are getting more and more huge each year too. It all boils down to many of them eating crappy food and leading extremely sedentary lifestyles.

( I'm 5'7", so no disrespect to the "shorter ladies" on this board)

[Granny58]

11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I was a fat kid/teen and I am a fat woman (16/18 at 5’7)

my 2 cents...this size for a grown woman of 5'7" doesn't strike me as fat.  

[Granny58]

2 hours ago, Bridget said:

All due respect, you might be surprised by how big teenagers are these days. I have many female students (in grade 10) who are already wearing a woman's size 14-16. These are shorter females too, between 5'2" and 5'3", and many of them are very busty as well. The males are getting more and more huge each year too. It all boils down to many of them eating crappy food and leading extremely sedentary lifestyles.

( I'm 5'7", so no disrespect to the "shorter ladies" on this board)

and you can tell many of them lead sedentary lifestyles (aside from the obvious that that is all anybody does these days) because they have no calf muscles, ie no walking and stooped posture.  I can spot it a mile away.  

[riverblue22]

 This is not the Jazz we were introduced to years ago.  She is not moving in a good direction and her parents need to take her off TV.  She also needs to stay in school and stop obsessing over surgery.  I think Greg should tell her he won't pay until she is 21 or he feels she is mature enough to handle it.  She needs to get her mind off the surgery and focus on more immediate problems.  I think they need a good family therapist because somehow Jeannette has to stop enabling her so much.

[Scarlett45]

23 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

my 2 cents...this size for a grown woman of 5'7" doesn't strike me as fat.  

You’re very sweet to me @Granny58 but I’m ok with being fat, I have a BMI of 32, I’m obese and look like a fertility statue. (Like many plus size ladies of color who were fat as children)  

I was also 5’7 at 14, so the same height/size I am now.....so although I’m older I didn’t get any taller!

I say all this to say if you gain 40lbs in one year and haven’t gotten any taller (whether you’re 15 or 35) I would think It could be due to depression OR there was a major medical reason (even just injury or pregnancy). 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Scarlett45

[Adiba]

I would be afraid, if I were Jazz' parents, that she would start to purge after binge eating as a way to control her weight for the surgery. As a poster upthread stated, this is not the same Jazz we were introduced to in the beginning of the show (and in her youtube videos).  She needs therapy, imo--and not just for her body dysphoria. The show seems to present the surgery as a panacea for all of Jazz's issues, and I am certain that that is wishful thinking. As if after surgery she will magically start to eat healthier, be more active, and take an interest in higher education. 

[bichonblitz]

I live down the street from a high school. Ocassionally, depending on the time of day, I get caught up in traffic as school is letting out. So I sit there and watch the kids walking home, across the street, down the sidewalk, etc etc. I'm not kidding when I say 75% of them are overweight. And sloppy looking. But dress code is another issue for a different topic. It's sad. 

[Granny58]

49 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

You’re very sweet to me @Granny58 but I’m ok with being fat, I have a BMI of 32, I’m obese and look like a fertility statue. (Like many plus size ladies of color who were fat as children)  

I was also 5’7 at 14, so the same height/size I am now.....so although I’m older I didn’t get any taller!

I say all this to say if you gain 40lbs in one year and haven’t gotten any taller (whether you’re 15 or 35) I would think It could be due to depression OR there was a major medical reason (even just injury or pregnancy). 

I hear ya.  My BMI is just skirting the edge of obese (by doc charts though...not in real life).  My goal now is to stay functional and fit.   But I do wholeheartedly agree that the big red flag is a 40 pound gain in a year.  I gained mine over decades and that is a major difference.  

[calpurnia99]

I think the family just telling Jazz to "do it" is not going to help. When I was in High School I went to Weight Watchers and I at least learned some basic dieting concepts. The idea of totally depriving yourself backfires.  There are also plans where the more you exercise, the more you can eat is built in. She needs a Structured (there is that word again) weight loss plan. I do feel for her in that she is young and isn't supposed to know everything about how to lose weight. Why the adults in her life are not doing more to help her with this is baffling. It is really hard to lose weight. The person also hates being fat, if it were that easy we would all be slim and fit. Just telling someone to "do it" is useless advice. And if hypnotherapy actually worked for weight loss we would all be going to one.

Edited February 8, 2018 by calpurnia99

[gingerella]

We're all stating the obvious over and over and over with what we're seeing on this show now and that leads me to one simple thought, maybe the Jennings family just isnt endowed with the smarts gene. Maybe they cant/dont see the desperate need for therapy - for all of them - because, well, they're just not that smart upstairs...

[rwlevin]

The fact that jazz thought bark thins could be healthy was astounding to me. They're called thins because they're physically thin.

[ClareWalks]

40 minutes ago, rwlevin said:

The fact that jazz thought bark thins could be healthy was astounding to me. They're called thins because they're physically thin.

I also don't understand why she needed to scan the package to determine if they're healthy or not. Does she seriously not know how to read a nutrition label at all?

[Kid]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

We're all stating the obvious over and over and over with what we're seeing on this show now and that leads me to one simple thought, maybe the Jennings family just isnt endowed with the smarts gene. Maybe they cant/dont see the desperate need for therapy - for all of them - because, well, they're just not that smart upstairs...

 I think they are smart. I think they are in denial. And, I think her dad is quite aware but he keeps losing the battle. And, I think her siblings are very much aware. Mom and Jazz are the ones that seem to not see reality.

By the way, having been an overweight teenager, I can tell you by experience that her grandfather’s comment is not helpful. Those kind of comments from someone you love leads to more self loathing and more eating for comfort.  I was much like Jazz – not morbidly obese as a teenager but chubby.  And the constant nagging and comments from my family made a bad situation worse.

[Bridget]

5 hours ago, calpurnia99 said:

I think the family just telling Jazz to "do it" is not going to help. When I was in High School I went to Weight Watchers and I at least learned some basic dieting concepts. The idea of totally depriving yourself backfires.  There are also plans where the more you exercise, the more you can eat is built in. She needs a Structured (there is that word again) weight loss plan. I do feel for her in that she is young and isn't supposed to know everything about how to lose weight. Why the adults in her life are not doing more to help her with this is baffling. It is really hard to lose weight. The person also hates being fat, if it were that easy we would all be slim and fit. Just telling someone to "do it" is useless advice. And if hypnotherapy actually worked for weight loss we would all be going to one.

I was SO going to suggest that Jazz join Weight Watchers, but was waiting for an appropriate post to respond to. I've done WW. It works. I've even seen high school students at the meetings too...and not because their parents dragged them along. They're participating in the program and are losing weight slowly but surely, the safe and healthy way. There are no restrictions at all; it's simply learning how to grow into a new lifestyle (more exercise, more protein, learning how to make healthier versions of favorite dishes) that works best for each person. 

If her parents wanted to add to her resume and bank account, and if WW ever developed a "teen program" to tackle the current issue of so many young people who are overweight, being the face of Weight Watchers would be positive attention for Jazz. She'd be helping young people who struggle with something she does/did too, other than being transgender. 

Jazz would be in a group environment, learn that healthy food isn't always a salad, understand portion size/control and maybe meet other teens who are participating. Her joining would provide a support system on the journey to her weight loss goal. Everyone and their mother can tell you dropping weight is easier when you're not alone. She'd be able to avoid jabs from her family, because she's got her WW family to support her. She'd be able to have a bite or two of an appetizer and not feel deprived. She'd no doubt feel good about herself (which she really does need instead of her parents giving into her every whim) when hitting benchmarks (dropping the first 5lbs, then 10lbs) and then be celebrated in the meetings for that victory (as are others who have reached other benchmarks or goals). 

Being conservative (losing 3lbs a month), dropping 30lbs would probably take maybe 8-10 months via WW, accounting for plateaus, going off plan for X number of days or any other host of reasons those of us (who have have participated in WW or any other diet) have temporarily fallen off of the wagon. Had she started when Dr. Bowers told her about it, she'd no doubt be at her surgery goal weight before she knew it.

[Caracoa1]

Im thinking Jazz believes that bottom surgery is going to be the solution to all her problems....that she will be able to stop binge eating, lose weight, be social, go to a good university, meet a good man and marriage.....

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, Bridget said:

and if WW ever developed a "teen program" to tackle the current issue of so many young people who are overweight,

Actually WW just announced that they will be offering free WW plans to teens ages 13-17, I think this summer in fact. And while you're right about WW (I've done it and am doing it now, and it does work BUT, you have to follow the program and change your behaviors, go back to your old habits and the weight will return, guaranteed). Jazz simply lacks the ability and maturity to stick with anything. That's why I said before that she cannot do home schooling, for the same reasons that I doubt she'll lose the weight, she has zero self control, zero impulse control, zero self awareness when it comes to pretty much anything other than whinging on about being a trans teen. It's like she has no other facet to her identity and her brothers and sister totally see that. The boys say how sad it is that she no longer plays soccer because she was so good at it. Her sister advises her to stop fixating on things she cannot fix and focus on that which she can control. But Jazz just doesn't hear any of it.

 

I remember back in seasons 1 & 2, I really looked forward to this show because I felt like it was such an important show to be on, particularly because at that time it provided a critical counterpoint to the vapid, insipid bullshit that was I Am Cait, which seemed to be obsessing about hair, makeup, clothing, and how to become a 'transKardashian', if you will. Now? This show has turned more into I Am Cait in its obsessive blathering about America's Next Top Vagina, and The Neverending Journey of Medical Consultations That Lead to the River Nowhere, that its become more hate watching that something I look forward to, and that makes me a bit sad. Now I think as each episode begins, "I wonder what fucked up shit Jazz will do this episode..." This show had soooo much potential to teach people about the journey of a trans teen and what obstacles they face, and how we all can make this a more just and accepting society. But honestly? Someone tuning in to this show right now, without having viewed the first two seasons, would probably think all trans teens are completely fucked up. I think at this point Jazz is actually doing a DISservice to her cause. Maybe it's just me though...

[ClareWalks]

Based on what Jazz has said about how she LIKES to eat a lot and she doesn't want to lose that coping mechanism, I think she is beyond the help that Weight Watchers can provide (which is more "how do I lose weight?" than "how do I cope with the urge to binge-eat to deal with my mental health issues?"). She needs Overeaters Anonymous and she needs it now. Or at least, ya know, a decent therapist (and not just to get a one-time letter for the surgeon).

[jcbrown]

6 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I remember back in seasons 1 & 2, I really looked forward to this show because I felt like it was such an important show to be on, particularly because at that time it provided a critical counterpoint to the vapid, insipid bullshit that was I Am Cait, which seemed to be obsessing about hair, makeup, clothing, and how to become a 'transKardashian', if you will. Now? This show has turned more into I Am Cait in its obsessive blathering about America's Next Top Vagina, and The Neverending Journey of Medical Consultations That Lead to the River Nowhere, that its become more hate watching that something I look forward to, and that makes me a bit sad. Now I think as each episode begins, "I wonder what fucked up shit Jazz will do this episode..." This show had soooo much potential to teach people about the journey of a trans teen and what obstacles they face, and how we all can make this a more just and accepting society. But honestly? Someone tuning in to this show right now, without having viewed the first two seasons, would probably think all trans teens are completely fucked up. I think at this point Jazz is actually doing a DISservice to her cause. Maybe it's just me though...

I didn't watch it early on but it sounds like I should have. I actually agree that she is doing a disservice to her cause by being fixated on bottom surgery and showing no other dimension at all to her life. She is (to me) clearly depressed and floundering and the adults in her life just keep profiting from it. (Please do not misunderstand me--I am not saying anything about her trans identity as being part of her floundering. I just think she is not shown as having any goals beyond surgery and that does not a life plan make.)

[kicotan]

3 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Maybe it's just me though...

It's not just you, trust me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm super glad that awareness of otherness is being given a forum...but, yeah when it turns into an obvious shitshow?  You end up giving haters ammunition and the whole mission of acceptance is lost.

I think the Jennings family should cut and run, get their daughter the help she needs for her binge eating, suicidal ideations, etc. out of the limelight.

I feel so sorry for Jazz and the dysfunctional way so many things are being addressed on this show, I'm at the point of thinking that watching this show borderlines on sadism...and I'm going to have to just stop.

[gingerella]

16 minutes ago, kicotan said:

It's not just you, trust me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm super glad that awareness of otherness is being given a forum...but, yeah when it turns into an obvious shitshow?  You end up giving haters ammunition and the whole mission of acceptance is lost.

I think the Jennings family should cut and run, get their daughter the help she needs for her binge eating, suicidal ideations, etc. out of the limelight.

I feel so sorry for Jazz and the dysfunctional way so many things are being addressed on this show, I'm at the point of thinking that watching this show borderlines on sadism...and I'm going to have to just stop.

^^THIS^^

[princelina]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Someone tuning in to this show right now, without having viewed the first two seasons, would probably think all trans teens are completely fucked up. I think at this point Jazz is actually doing a DISservice to her cause. Maybe it's just me though...

So I did not watch the first 2 seasons - I tuned in around season 3 after seeing so many people on the I Am Cait thread talking about what a wonderful, mature spokesperson she was for the trans community vs. Caitlin - and I what I saw was a mom worried about her child's depression and possible suicide, while trying to force her to date boys and become a popular teenager.  So I didn't get it.  Although I would assume reaching a certain smarty-pants age (even if she didn't have actual puberty) brought a lot of this on.  It is not just Jazz being her age, but also her peers being that age that could lead to confusion and depression for her - kids that age want to be cool and aren't always welcoming to people who are different, even if they are polite and not mean.  And as we have seen, Jazz has a lot of social awkwardness that could turn off kids who want to be nice.  And of course she has been the sun around which her family revolves for a long time, which is not good for a child and can cause anxiety issues as well.  They just seem to have lots of problems to me, and I think the parents could benefit from therapy too.

[Bridget]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

Actually WW just announced that they will be offering free WW plans to teens ages 13-17, I think this summer in fact. And while you're right about WW (I've done it and am doing it now, and it does work BUT, you have to follow the program and change your behaviors, go back to your old habits and the weight will return, guaranteed). Jazz simply lacks the ability and maturity to stick with anything. That's why I said before that she cannot do home schooling, for the same reasons that I doubt she'll lose the weight, she has zero self control, zero impulse control, zero self awareness when it comes to pretty much anything other than whinging on about being a trans teen. It's like she has no other facet to her identity and her brothers and sister totally see that. The boys say how sad it is that she no longer plays soccer because she was so good at it. Her sister advises her to stop fixating on things she cannot fix and focus on that which she can control. But Jazz just doesn't hear any of it.

 

I remember back in seasons 1 & 2, I really looked forward to this show because I felt like it was such an important show to be on, particularly because at that time it provided a critical counterpoint to the vapid, insipid bullshit that was I Am Cait, which seemed to be obsessing about hair, makeup, clothing, and how to become a 'transKardashian', if you will. Now? This show has turned more into I Am Cait in its obsessive blathering about America's Next Top Vagina, and The Neverending Journey of Medical Consultations That Lead to the River Nowhere, that its become more hate watching that something I look forward to, and that makes me a bit sad. Now I think as each episode begins, "I wonder what fucked up shit Jazz will do this episode..." This show had soooo much potential to teach people about the journey of a trans teen and what obstacles they face, and how we all can make this a more just and accepting society. But honestly? Someone tuning in to this show right now, without having viewed the first two seasons, would probably think all trans teens are completely fucked up. I think at this point Jazz is actually doing a DISservice to her cause. Maybe it's just me though...

I'm thrilled to learn they're offering a program for teens AND it's free. Finances truly hold many people back from eating healthy and/or joining programs like WW. I'm so excited for this to kick off! 

You're spot on, as is @ClareWalks re: Jazz's inability to contain her eating and understand how to live a healthy lifestyle. I was just hoping if she joined WW, she'd find some solace in being part of a group, but now that I read your posts, I totally agree with everything. (which is one of the reasons I love this site so much - I love learning and thinking about things from a different perspective. Thank you for that!)

[calpurnia99]

I didn't mean to say Jazz should go to Weight Watchers. I mentioned it as an example of where I learned some good principles regarding dieting and how if Jazz learned some of those same dieting philosophies they teach at WW such as exercising to eat more, building in cheats not depriving yourself she would have more success. I agree with Clarewalks that the binge eating requires something more like Overeaters Anonymous. My point was that she has nothing to help her except "eat healthy" "lose weight" "exercise more" as he advice she is getting from her family.  That's not fair she is only 17 and needs more guidance to learn some weight loss tips to make this easier for her. She needs professional help and a structured program and psychotherapy. The whole thing is an absolute Shit Show.

In one scene when they were walking to the beach, I did not recognize her. I thought "oh another one of her friends is overweight" and then I realized it was Jazz. She had on a big Hawaiian shirt and from the side she look enormous. 

[ClareWalks]

Sorry guys I didn't mean to imply that the WW advice wasn't good! She would definitely benefit from the nutrition education they provide. She seems to think diet food has to taste bad. Probably got that attitude from Jeanette, who we have seen in the past has a bad attitude about her own body. It's a helpful reminder that our kids are listening! Since Jazz is pretty competitive I think Jeanette should eat healthy with Jazz so they can feed off each other (heh heh).

[gingerella]

53 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

Sorry guys I didn't mean to imply that the WW advice wasn't good! She would definitely benefit from the nutrition education they provide. She seems to think diet food has to taste bad. Probably got that attitude from Jeanette, who we have seen in the past has a bad attitude about her own body. It's a helpful reminder that our kids are listening! Since Jazz is pretty competitive I think Jeanette should eat healthy with Jazz so they can feed off each other (heh heh).

I think you were right though, WW can only work IF you commit to and follow the program. Jazz couldn't do that right now so I agree with you, she needs something deeper like therapy because her underlying eating issues are related to much deeper and more serious issues like self loathing and maybe trying to push away all th questions about herself that she might not feel she can even say aloud for fear of no longer being the trans teen poster child. Speaking of which, I wonder if there is a faction of the trans teen world that, after watching her show, does not want her to represnt them so publicaly,

[Bridget]

It makes me sick to think TLC would have planted someone to stir the pot, but I don't doubt it. Those are the bits on "reality TV" that make me wonder what production thinks the viewers want to see. I'd love to see a normal thing, like dinner at the table. I really do wonder what they talk about on a daily basis. I wonder if we will ever see Greg & Jeanette meet up with Noelle's parents/family, even if it's for less than a minute. I'd love to see the twins spend quality time with just their parents when home on a break. I'd love to see Jazz help cook dinner or set the table and talk to her parents about something other than surgery and doctors. I'd love to see them be honest and real with Jazz about being aware and making the time to meet all of the surgery pre-requisites. If she has the surgery, I think it's important for her to show her parents and doctors that she really does want it, if that's the case. Very much like how Dr. Now requires XYZ from his patients before he will sign off, and many of them are successful, I hope to see more enthusiasm from Jazz during this time. While I'm not a doctor nor do I play one on TV, Jazz & Dr. Now's patients all suffer with mental illness. If the 600lb folks can adhere to the pre-op requirements, Jazz should be able to as well, especially when she has a better support system in place than most, including an enabler, just like 600lb folks have.

I'm kind of shocked that St. Greg (I really do love him) hasn't informed his clueless wife that a teenager doesn't know the basics about weight loss. The whole she needs "willpower" issue bugs me because it doesn't exist in the teenage brain. I work with teens all day and they truly don't have it yet. They struggle with any type of restriction that requires them to buck up, be mature and act like an almost adult,  like staying in class without asking to go to the bathroom or go without their phones for two hours. Sad, but true. You'd think they lost a limb or something when they're told no and gently reminded (in February!!!) about the basic expectations of my classroom.

However, if Greg wants Jazz to "fail" so she will have to wait for surgery, I can support that. I wish he'd talk to her about therapy rather than mom, who asks her to go instead of making her go. I also hope the nice therapist who has "treated Jazz since she was 3" (is it truthful to say that since we were told Jazz hadn't been to see her in a long time?) informs Jazz that hypnotherapy isn't the same as psychotherapy.

Greg & Jeanette are proud pioneers and have embraced their roles in the transgender community, which would make me think they would have had Jazz in continual therapy, as well as themselves, because it's common knowledge that there isn't a manual for how to raise kids, let alone one who is transgender. Jazz went to therapy when she was 3, so I wonder when she stopped going and why? I wonder if that will come up in a future session with the therapist. Also curious about that therapist treating both Jazz & mom. Isn't that some type of conflict of interest? That's what I was told by a therapist I saw. I brought my mom with me to a session once and my mom really liked my therapist. My mom actually wanted to start seeing that therapist, and when I told the therapist, she said "I cant work with two patients who are mother/daughter (or any parent/offspring) because it's not only a conflict of interest, but it would impact how I worked with you because I'd have two different accounts of the ongoing  issues."

(I ended up letting my mom "have her" for several reasons.)

I know many speculate Jazz will engage in threats of self harm if told "no", like if she was told she couldn't leave her current school.  I know many parents who have done the things they need to do in order to show their kids that they're not playing around, which has been anything from taking a bedroom door off of the hinges to accompanying kid to school to turning off cell phones and/or WiFi at home. It really bothers me to see parents letting a kid run the roost in general, but to see it on TV just makes me want to yell...yet I continue to watch!  Jazz's parents need to step up and parent her like they did with their other three kids. If they think she will hurt herself because they tell her no, then they might consider realistic options to combat those threats, empty or not, like having her admitted somewhere on a 5150 hold. I must sound awful, but I'd do it to save my child's life and to let them know how much they matter. 

[CousinAmy]

You can't force anyone to lose weight, join Weight Watchers, or even go to therapy. Right now those are Jazz's choices. I wonder if she will be able to wheedle Dr. Marci to do the surgery anyway? This is a TV show with a storyline, a storyline which is now hurtling full-speed ahead towards gender confirmation surgery. Would they have to drop the storyline if she can't meet the requirements, or drop the requirements?

[kylies-lips]

It bothers me a lot that Jazz's weight is a storyline at this point. And this is just me coming from the place of being a person who has struggled with weight her entire life. There are so many factors involved in weight loss/gain and a lot of it is individualistic and much it stems from emotions. But I feel like Jazz and her weight is a horse that's been beat to death.

Anyway. I had to snicker at Jeanette's dramatic "Nobody asked MEEEE!!!" speech when talking to Greg about Jazz doing virtual school, LOL. Jeanette is down for Jazz attending red carpet events and doing press tours and flying around the country to visit every doctor that does bottom surgery. But when it comes to staying home with her child (who is practically done with high school) and monitor her virtual school progress then she immediately feels put upon. Rough life.

But this is the monster she created. Jazz is past the point of having the normal high school experience. I imagine school is not a fun place for her to be, which is a shame because she is very bright and could honestly stand to socialize with her peers more. How can she possibly be focused on high school when she and her family are living this extremely high profile life? She's writing books, having speaking engagements all over the country...SHE HAS HER OWN TV SHOW! It's silly that Jeanette would think a normal high school experience would even be an option at this point and I'm surprised that Jazz was even still in regular school, tbh.

I can understand Jeannette's concern about her loafing around her room all day now and the potential for more isolation and possibly depression. But again...this is all kind of a monster she created. It is beyond evident that the Jennings family was so busy being the spokesfamily for raising a transgendered kid that they never stopped to think about what would actually happen to that child once she became an adult. So she loses the weight, has bottom surgery and then what? 

 

It's kind of cute to watch Jazz around Victoria because she is one of the few people I've seen Jazz actually connect with and not try to dominate a conversation with. The other person was her friend Skyler (the tall thin blonde who recently had bottom surgery). Even if romance doesn't happen I hope that Jazz and Victoria can be friends. She needs more people in her life who are just regular people who don't make a big production over being trans. 

[msrachelj]

On 2/7/2018 at 9:10 AM, Madding crowd said:

I think the grandpa’s comment is mean and fat shaming a sensitive teenager is never going to help her lose weight. He is probably the type of man who badgers the grandma into not eating so she stays thin.

Jazz already has problems with isolation, virtual school would be the worst thing for her. I’m not sure she has real friends beyond what was drummed up by TLC-I just don’t see her as being close to anyone which is sad.

grandpa has some control/bullying issues with the way he treats people, i guarantee you. have seen this in his attitude toward his wife and his grandchild. 

[yankeefan]

1 hour ago, msrachelj said:

grandpa has some control/bullying issues with the way he treats people, i guarantee you. have seen this in his attitude toward his wife and his grandchild. 

I used to like the grandfather, but lately I think he's really being an ass.  He was mean to the grandmother at the bowling alley and his comment about "Jazz rolls" was horrible.

[calpurnia99]

14 hours ago, kylies-lips said:

 

It's kind of cute to watch Jazz around Victoria because she is one of the few people I've seen Jazz actually connect with and not try to dominate a conversation with. The other person was her friend Skyler (the tall thin blonde who recently had bottom surgery). Even if romance doesn't happen I hope that Jazz and Victoria can be friends. She needs more people in her life who are just regular people who don't make a big production over being trans. 

Yeah but it's also a fake storyline. They found Victoria, who could be an actress, to play this part.  They possibly wrote it to inform the audience about Pansexualism.  Also for another shocking storyline: Does Jazz like girls? None of this was Jazz's idea or Victoria's or the girl playing the matchmaker friend (who wants to be on TV). They are acting it all out. If Jazz has a crush on anyone, she is not going to tell the producers about it. That's very embarrassing, but playing the role of having a crush is not too hard. And since all parties know it's a script, it doesn't embarrass her. After they are done filming, they won't be friends.  Victoria will go back to her life and Jazz will go back to her room. If there really is a boy or girl she likes, it won't be filmed for the show- I doubt she would allow that because it would be mortifying. Remember when you were in High School and how you felt having a crush? Would you want that on National TV? 

Edited February 10, 2018 by calpurnia99

[Nohardfeelings]

Valid points but I don’t think Victoria is an actress. She commented on Jazz’s instagram post about the episode after one of her friends tagged her (Jazz follows her so her comments show up directly under the post) I looked at Victoria’s public page and saw Jazz commented hearts under one of her pictures. I don’t think even TLC would make Jazz interact with a page that fans may or may not find a whole 8 weeks before the episode airs. However I think the dating in the dark guy could have been fake! Whatever happened with him anyway? 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Heartismyarmor

[princelina]

On 2/9/2018 at 2:37 PM, Bridget said:

However, if Greg wants Jazz to "fail" so she will have to wait for surgery, I can support that. I wish he'd talk to her about therapy rather than mom, who asks her to go instead of making her go. I also hope the nice therapist who has "treated Jazz since she was 3" (is it truthful to say that since we were told Jazz hadn't been to see her in a long time?) informs Jazz that hypnotherapy isn't the same as psychotherapy.

Greg & Jeanette are proud pioneers and have embraced their roles in the transgender community, which would make me think they would have had Jazz in continual therapy, as well as themselves, because it's common knowledge that there isn't a manual for how to raise kids, let alone one who is transgender. Jazz went to therapy when she was 3, so I wonder when she stopped going and why? I wonder if that will come up in a future session with the therapist. Also curious about that therapist treating both Jazz & mom. Isn't that some type of conflict of interest? That's what I was told by a therapist I saw. I brought my mom with me to a session once and my mom really liked my therapist. My mom actually wanted to start seeing that therapist, and when I told the therapist, she said "I cant work with two patients who are mother/daughter (or any parent/offspring) because it's not only a conflict of interest, but it would impact how I worked with you because I'd have two different accounts of the ongoing  issues."

(I ended up letting my mom "have her" for several reasons.)

I know many speculate Jazz will engage in threats of self harm if told "no", like if she was told she couldn't leave her current school.  I know many parents who have done the things they need to do in order to show their kids that they're not playing around, which has been anything from taking a bedroom door off of the hinges to accompanying kid to school to turning off cell phones and/or WiFi at home. It really bothers me to see parents letting a kid run the roost in general, but to see it on TV just makes me want to yell...yet I continue to watch!  Jazz's parents need to step up and parent her like they did with their other three kids. If they think she will hurt herself because they tell her no, then they might consider realistic options to combat those threats, empty or not, like having her admitted somewhere on a 5150 hold. I must sound awful, but I'd do it to save my child's life and to let them know how much they matter. 

Amen to your entire post!  (Retired middle/high school teacher here :)

At this point I think the parents have lost enough control that they can't "make her go".  (And your question about when she stopped going and why:  I assume when she grew old enough + stubborn enough to exert her will and be obeyed.). Right now Jazz is stating that they can give their opinions, but she (Jazz) is in control.  IMO their response should be:  "Fine.  You need to lose weight and get therapy letters.  We are happy to pay for therapy, weight watchers, and food from the diet of your choice.  If you are in control it's up to you to make and keep your therapy appointments and get a handle on your weight.  But until you meet Dr. Marci Bowers' conditions, we are not approving or paying for this surgery."  Then just shut up and let her go - at least for a month or two, and see how motivated she is.  At that point if she is doing nothing but lounging and binge eating, it would probably be time for a more active intervention.  But this is where I would advise them to start.  If they were asking me :)

Also - the whole "I have to give her her way or she may kill herself" - that's just a horrible position to be in.  And horrible for the kid to know the parent is thinking that way because it gives them the trump card.  At some point they have to either call her bluff or do what you said.  

Edited February 11, 2018 by princelina

[CousinAmy]

18 hours ago, yankeefan said:

I used to like the grandfather, but lately I think he's really being an ass.  He was mean to the grandmother at the bowling alley and his comment about "Jazz rolls" was horrible.

I think grandfathers (and grandmothers) get an automatic pass. They aren't required to be anything but lovable, and if they say something untoward, remember they are from two generations back, and likely haven't updated their parenting style in 20+ years.

(My grandfathers were born in the 19th century, 1880s and 1890s; one died long before I was born and the other when I was a toddler.) I still think Jazz's grandparents speak from a place of love, even though they may not always say the right thing.

Unless the grandparents' lines are scripted? Grandpa just happened to make a quip that became the title of the episode? Jazz just happened to wear that particular T-shirt that inspired Grandpa's quip?

It's all fake?

[Caracoa1]

Greg should just put his foot down and say no surgery until you are 18 and can sign for yourself... she'll be 18 in what.... October of this year?  Is there a rush on Jazz's behalf due to her hormone blockers running low?  I don't understand why the fuss about losing weight and going to therapy so she can have the bottom surgery which she proclaims will make her feel like a complete woman.  I believe that all her life her parents always gave into her wants and she had never had to put in the work necessary to achieve what she wants....it has always been handed to her freely with no consequences and now all these requirements are new to her and she is feeling overwhelmed.

[Bridget]

19 hours ago, princelina said:

Amen to your entire post!  (Retired middle/high school teacher here :)

At this point I think the parents have lost enough control that they can't "make her go".  (And your question about when she stopped going and why:  I assume when she grew old enough + stubborn enough to exert her will and be obeyed.). Right now Jazz is stating that they can give their opinions, but she (Jazz) is in control.  IMO their response should be:  "Fine.  You need to lose weight and get therapy letters.  We are happy to pay for therapy, weight watchers, and food from the diet of your choice.  If you are in control it's up to you to make and keep your therapy appointments and get a handle on your weight.  But until you meet Dr. Marci Bowers' conditions, we are not approving or paying for this surgery."  Then just shut up and let her go - at least for a month or two, and see how motivated she is.  At that point if she is doing nothing but lounging and binge eating, it would probably be time for a more active intervention.  But this is where I would advise them to start.  If they were asking me :)

Also - the whole "I have to give her her way or she may kill herself" - that's just a horrible position to be in.  And horrible for the kid to know the parent is thinking that way because it gives them the trump card.  At some point they have to either call her bluff or do what you said.  

Amen to your post too! (Current middle/high school teacher here. ?) 

I know I am judging G&J like they're other teachers at my school who have unruly classrooms and I admit it! I watch Jazz and am always thinking, "I would do XYZ if she were my kid because I know it would get her to settle her tea kettle and/or require her to be accountable." It's not tough love, it's called being the adult in the room because the power balance in that house is ridiculous. Even the way she speaks to her parents irritates the crap out of me, but I know they've allowed her to do it for so long, so I can't feel bad for them.

Your idea to give Jazz guidelines and butt out, then step in when necessary is amazing!  No one wants to see young people fail, but at some point, all of the adults in their lives have got to give them enough rope and see what happens. Parents/teachers need to let their kids/students screw up or fail to meet a goal in an attempt to communicate that there are consequences in life without saying "I told you so" or "you should have done..." No one can want something more than someone else, just like if someone wants a loved one to lose weight or quit smoking, it's not going to happen until the person who needs to do it is ready and wants to do it. 

It's awful (and 10 types of crazy) that so many teens do hold a trump card of some sort and their parents allow them to have that power. I just don't understand it at all. The parents are enabling their kids and reinforcing the idea that parents are all talk. "Mom really won't take away my phone" or "I will still get new shoes even though I ditched school and got caught." Parents need to be consistent, no matter how hard it is. It's one of the only ways to illustrate that "no means no." I wish parents would call their kids' bluff and handle it sooner than later or else their kid will be 50 and living at home because they don't like being told what do at work! 

At the beginning of the current season, there was a scene when G&J had no idea where Jazz was because she took off in the car without telling them. Judging by their reactions, it didn't seem like it was the first time she's done that. Her car keys should have been taken for X days after that or there should have been some other consequence. No one called her out on it, she didn't realize it's not OK to do and she has no reason to change that particular habit. That's on her parents, and as bad as I feel for them having a kid without common courtesy, they have to want to make her accountable or punish her. Even though there are so many of us that want them to ground her for mouthing off to adults (I've never heard her say "I'm sorry), we can't want it more than they do. 

What was odd to me about that scene is that for as concerned as G&J are about Jazz's safety, even when she's with a group of friends, I was floored that they were so nonchalant about her driving away without saying a word. Putting aside the drivers on the road who are impaired or texting, she might run into someone who could be quite dangerous. That's just not safe, smart or mature. It could be her invincible teenage brain indicating "I'm only going a few miles, nothing can happen to me", but we know the stats about accidents and their proximity to a driver's home. I hope her parents get that in check.