Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[KAOS Agent]

Carrying a cross was not something only Jesus had to do. It was part of the punishment of crucifixion, as was the scourging. Historically, the Persians, Greeks and more all practiced crucifixion before the Romans learned of this nasty method of execution. That the cross to bear is a reference we understand today is due to the bible, but if Hook was from or had been to a place that had once practiced this form of execution, it's not at all unbelievable that they would use a phrase like that. It wouldn't be a religious reference, it's a historical one.

[Faemonic]

I guess I just have a hard time with the idea of magic and real-world religion coexisting. Although it could explain some of the stories from the bible, like people who are 300 years old, or water being turned into wine... magic! :P

Real-world religions coexist with real world language, though. Whoever wrote "cross to bear" and "buried the hatchet" (not religious, but still mind-bogglingly historical) lines for Hook must not have considered where those expressions actually came from.

 

Or maybe in the Enchanted Forest, "cross to bear" refers to an encounter with a giant woodland predator such as a bear, and the act of purposely making it upset (or "cross".)

 

Because it can't be that Aslan exists in the Enchanted Forest and was crucified instead of table-stabbed, and we just know Him by another Name in the land without magic, which would at least to me explain a lot about Killian referring to demons and preparing his soul and being devil-ishly handsome and fire and brimstone in the next life. (Seriously, I thought he was referring to reincarnation before Rumple described aich-ee-double-hockey-sticks.)

Edited January 3, 2015 by Faemonic

[pezgirl7]

Carrying a cross was not something only Jesus had to do. It was part of the punishment of crucifixion, as was the scourging.

I thought of that, but I believe the saying exists today due to Jesus' experience with the cross. Others were not well known enough to be remembered. I'm not gonna argue it. Reasons could be made for the saying in the EF, but it's just a thing that bugs me everytime I hear Hook say it.

[kili]

Real-world religions coexist with real world language, though. Whoever wrote "cross to bear" and "buried the hatchet" (not religious, but still mind-bogglingly historical) lines for Hook must not have considered where those expressions actually came from.

About the burying of the hatchet. There were Neverland Indians and they did have tomahawks (and did take scalps in the original Barry version). Maybe they too "buried the hatchet" in times of peace. Perhaps that is where Hook learned the phrase (even though they were never shown in OUAT).

For that matter, since the Shadow did shop in our world for Lost Boys, perhaps a few of them brought over some phrases he adopted?

Edited January 3, 2015 by kili

[myril]

Carrying a cross was not something only Jesus had to do. It was part of the punishment of crucifixion, as was the scourging. Historically, the Persians, Greeks and more all practiced crucifixion before the Romans learned of this nasty method of execution. That the cross to bear is a reference we understand today is due to the bible, but if Hook was from or had been to a place that had once practiced this form of execution, it's not at all unbelievable that they would use a phrase like that. It wouldn't be a religious reference, it's a historical one.

 

As should have all learned by now, world building is such annoying work, getting in the way of moving on story and plot and taking away from the characters and their dramatic development, it's boring, ridiculous effort, only done to satisfy nitpicking nerd fiction fans, some redundant appendix of the anatomy of story telling. It's the difference between geeks and nerds, the final battle, isn't it, geeks having fun to play around with whatever, nerds getting serious and exploring things into absurd depths.  /sarcasm off

 

Paying attention to such detail can be though sign of writers being fully in charge and love of their own fictional world and characters, having a good grip of their characters' developments, so they have the time and muse to pay attention to such lovely details, enriching their story telling and fictional worlds. It's when work becomes art (look at something like Lord of the Rings, the books I mean). Of course there are some writers paying overly attention to such details and losing sight for character drama over it, but think those seldom get published at all.

 

To be fair though, they did pay some attention to language, linguistics on the show, seeing the somewhat outdated words and phrasing used in the Enchanted Forest,and subsequently by the folks in Storybrooke after the first Dark Curse broke. Hook mostly does sound like a typical pirate with a background of British Navy (as we expect them to sound that is).

Edited January 3, 2015 by katusch

[Shanna Marie]

Because it can't be that Aslan exists in the Enchanted Forest and was crucified instead of table-stabbed, and we just know Him by another Name in the land without magic, which would at least to me explain a lot about Killian referring to demons and preparing his soul and being devil-ishly handsome and fire and brimstone in the next life. (Seriously, I thought he was referring to reincarnation before Rumple described aich-ee-double-hockey-sticks.)

Hook also talked about "Providence" bringing Bae to him in Neverland, and I believe there was one other point where he thanked Providence for something. He was also spurring Rumple to kill him so he'd be reunited with Milah.

 

Although they play with some archaic language forms, there are a lot of anachronisms thrown in, like the liberal use of the word "okay" even in the fairy tale world of the past.

 

I have wondered if there's actually some linguistic difference between realms -- are the people in the Enchanted Forest actually speaking English, or is there some kind of translation effect in the various curses and portals that makes them switch languages between realms? If what we're getting is actually a translation rather than literal English, that could explain some of those aberrations. It would make sense for the curse to be making everyone speak English in Storybrooke, but then it gets more complicated when people not affected by the curse can still communicate in our world and when Emma, who grew up in our world, can get along fine in the Enchanted Forest.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm pretty sure Anna's speech was one big anachronism. She seemed more like a valley girl than a sheltered princess. I was waiting for her to say "like totally" or "OMG".

[Shanna Marie]

I'm pretty sure Anna's speech was one big anachronism.

Then there's the "Joan" thing, referring to the bit in the movie where she chats with the painting of Joan of Arc. But the movie doesn't necessarily put Arendelle in another world -- it may be a kind of Scandinavian Ruritania -- while the Once version is clearly in another world that requires portal travel to get to our world. So who is "Joan" in that world? I can deal with their world having a Blackbeard even though that's a historical figure in our world because that's not his actual name and is a fairly generic nickname based on a physical description that could easily be applied to an entirely different pirate who happens to have a black beard, but how do they have a Joan of Arc?

 

Or was the "Joan" alias just meant as an Easter egg wink-wink reference to the movie, without any implication that Anna actually was referring to Joan of Arc?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Or was the "Joan" alias just meant as an Easter egg wink-wink reference to the movie, without any implication that Anna actually was referring to Joan of Arc?

Answering in Writers thread about a bigger issue regarding this.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[HeimrArnadalr]

Regarding religion, in the pilot Snow and Charming were married by a man dressed similar to a Catholic bishop. Arendelle in the movie also has a bishop and a chapel based on a modern replica of the traditional Scandinavian stave church. Although Arendelle's bishop didn't appear on Once, the chapel is seen in shots of the castle.

 

When Ingrid was telling Anna about the shattered sight story, she (or maybe Anna, can't remember) said that the king who originally cast the spell was a Norse king. This makes sense in relation to the movie, which is somewhat based on a rather specific time and place in Norway, but less so with regard to Once's fantasy world. Then again, maybe this is another example of people traveling to the Land Without Magic while Rumple waits centuries for someone to cast the Dark Curse for him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Then again, maybe this is another example of people traveling to the Land Without Magic while Rumple waits centuries for someone to cast the Dark Curse for him.

Unless it's something loopy like the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle are really the Land Without Magic in the past, and that's how their stories made it to our world. Once the magic was gone, it all became legend. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the final season's big reveal.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Or maybe the Land Without Magic is really just North America. Or possibly just Boston and New York (and Tallahassee). 

 

I can handwave the intermix of religious imagery and terminology. After all, if you look past worship there is a lot of overlap between religion, mythology, legends, and fables.

 

Maybe once upon a time, long, long ago, there was free travel between all the realms, including tLWoM, and there was some kind of disagreement between the leaders of the realms about the use of magic, and wars were fought and barriers put in place, and now the realms are separated and so much time has passed that no one in tLWoM even knows the other lands exist, but legends and stories remain as fairytales.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I can handwave the intermix of religious imagery and terminology. After all, if you look past worship there is a lot of overlap between religion, mythology, legends, and fables.

Well, a lot of the legends/fables/mythology are based off religious ideas. Grimm's fairy tales has a lot of religious references throughout, and so do Robin Hood and Arthurian legend. It's just part of the source material. That's why it makes sense for Enchanted Forest residents to make references. 

Edited January 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Well, a lot of the legends/fables/mythology are based off religious ideas. Grimm's fairy tales has a lot of religious references throughout, and so do Robin Hood and Arthurian legend. It's just part of the source material. That's why is makes sense for Enchanted Forest residents to make references. 

Takin' this reply over to the Social Issues thread...

[Camera One]

Hook's line was just meant to be a joke.  The writers just don't think very deeply about these things.  

 

As for the nuns, the writers couldn't hardly care less what the Fairies do at the nunnery even though there is potential for so much mythology there.  

 

I think I read that Snow White was originally supposed to be a nun.  She may or may not have been teaching at a religious school.  I guess that would have been the obstacle to her and David falling in love, until they created the character of Kathryn.  Or maybe Snow White as a nun was back when they had planned to kill Charming.  

[Souris]

Hook's line to Emma when she's complaining about wearing the corset bothers me. "You're discomfort is a cross I'm willing to bear." I know it's a common saying, but unless Jesus was known in the EF, I can't see Hook picking up that saying in the real world. 

 

That line really bugged me, too. I found it jarringly anachronistic because of it being so linked to a Christian origin. I could handwave it coming from a character with the Modern World curse download, but Hook's not one of those. So my inner copy editor was itching to take a red pen to it. All they needed was to change "cross" to "burden" to make it OK to me. I dunno, it just jumped out at me.

 

It reminds of the time I was reading an Arthurian novel and the author compared something to the size of a football field. It bothered me so much I immediately said "No!" and slammed the book shut. I cannot overlook modern sports being referenced in an Arthurian novel.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Souris

[OnceUponAJen]

The savior title was cringe-y for me as well, but I know it's meant as "savior from the curse" versus "Savior of the world." I certainly wouldn't want anyone calling me by that title, though, for different reasons than just being embarrassed by it.

I did pick up on Hook's "it's a cross I'm willing to bear." That phrase has become more commonly used in secular speech, but I did find it a little jarring when I reflected on it. I agree "burden" might have been a better choice of words, given that we're dealing with the Enchanted Forest.

However, if they do bring in Arthurian legend then I would fully expect to see Christian references and imagery (I.e. the Holy Grail).

Edited January 4, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Rumsy4]

I really hope they don't bring religion into the Show--A&E would be sure to be offensive about it. The "savior" title always makes me cringe.

Keeping the faries dressed as nuns is silly, and it' sounds ridiculous when people still call Blue "Mother Superior", but that's just a part of A&E's careless attitude to world-building or dealing with the aftermath of the original curse being broken.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Faemonic]

I really hope they don't bring religion into the Show

Too late! But they obviously don't really know what to do with it, so it's not too offensive, I guess...?

 

I brought it in because people get jarred by Hook's "cross to bear" line, but I was jarred the moment Mayor Mills in the first season demanded what the hell was it about this story book of Henry Jr.'s... It took me out of it a bit to wonder, wait, if Mayor Mills says hell then is there a hell and why would she make a hell and does she think even a little that she just might go there one day? But by the time Mary Margaret said that she was a teacher, not a nun, and could therefore go on dates, I sort of went with it.

[KingOfHearts]

Replying in Social Issues.

Edited January 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Social Issues thread:

 

 

They did throw in a line in S1 that killing Emma would break the Dark Curse, which is what most often happens to saviors and chosen ones in religion and fiction. That's why Regina opted for a sleeping curse to get rid of her. But now, Emma's role seems to have devolved in bringing back so-called Happy Endings. And apparently since everyone in Storybrooke except Regina has a Happy Ending, Emma is focussed on that. It makes no sense to me. Why is this the savior's role? Why is she even still the savior, when Rumple specifically made her the savior to break the original dark curse? Or is the show implying that because she is the product of true love and has inherant white magic, that makes her the savior? But none of that has been clarified in the show. So, whenever Emma calls herself the savior in later seasons, she comes across as slightly delusional. Especially because she is easily defeated soon after (Zelena, Ingrid, etc.). They seem to have demoted the savior from saving the day to bringing people happy endings.

 

This is assuming the show remembers its own mythology but I always assumed that the breaking of the Dark Curse was just the beginning. Crazy!Imprisoned!Rumple in the pilot had that line about "the final battle will begin," and that can't just be the breaking of the Curse because there was no battle to speak of. So yes, Regina took away the Happy Endings with the Curse, but, as we've seen, the breaking of the Curse did not guarantee the return of the Happy Endings.

 

If there is really supposed to be some sort of Final Battle, I'm assuming that's the forces of good vs the forces of evil. There are some characters who will obviously be on the good side (Snow, Charming, Emma, etc) and some characters who will obviously be on the evil side (any villain they haven't used or any villain they've resurrected by the final season) and some characters whose allegiances are up in the air (Regina, possibly Rumple). I would like to think that Emma, whose power comes from and who is the embodiment of the most powerful magic in all the realms, would be instrumental in this fight.

 

(Of course, now watch and this Final Battle will end up being like the unnamed Catastrophe the people from the future were trying to avoid in The 4400, heh.)

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[KingOfHearts]

 

Crazy!Imprisoned!Rumple in the pilot had that line about "the final battle will begin"

Another weird line from Rumple that didn't make any sense in the long run. My guess is that the "final battle" was Emma vs. Regina in S1. It wasn't necessarily a war of flesh and blood, but still a conflict that culminated into the breaking of the curse. It's weak but I bet that's what A&E would go with.

[Rumsy4]

I think the "final battle" line was either a discarded concept from some earlier draft of the plot, or it was part of Rumple's manipulations. After all, Rumple's sole aim was to get to the land without magic using the Dark Curse. Once he had a way to bring magic back, he could care less about the Curse. After all, he had gotten his memories back when Emma had told him her name. And he had manipulated Emma into retrieving the True Love potion from Maleficent's belly so he could get his magic/power back. He didn't care that Henry was potentially dying. It could also be that Rumple did not know how the Dark Curse would be broken (True Love's kiss from the savior). Perhaps he anticipated some kind of final showdown between Emma and Regina. Of course, the writers can retcon that line to mean something entire different now, but I doubt they had any specific idea in mind.

[YaddaYadda]

Regarding the fairies being nuns in SB, weren't the fairies the equivalent of nuns in the Enchanted Forest anyway?  I mean we had Grumpy's terrible backstory (well I hated it) with Nova and she wasn't allowed to fall in love or some nonsense like that.

 

I hope they don't bring religion into the fray, but they have Robin and there's talk of Camelot, so who knows.

[Camera One]

Crossover question with "Wonderland".  

 

When Cora took Will's heart, why didn't she use Will and Ana's Looking Glass to go back to the Enchanted Forest?  Since Will and Ana had been planning to go back so it was two-way.

[HeimrArnadalr]

Unless it's something loopy like the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle are really the Land Without Magic in the past, and that's how their stories made it to our world. Once the magic was gone, it all became legend. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the final season's big reveal.

That would mean that travel between the Land Without Magic and the Enchanted Forest would be time travel, which is explicitly against the Rules of Magic (unless you have the power of the three genies or the unholy combination of brains, courage, a heart, and a newborn). If every magic bean, mermaid, enchanted brig, magic door, and dark curse could time travel then it would make that more of a Guideline of Magic. 

 

There is another connection between the Norse of our world and theirs, though: they both use(d) the Futhark alphabet. Queen Elsa even explicitly mentions it by name in one episode and is able to read it in another.

Edited January 6, 2015 by HeimrArnadalr

[Faemonic]

That would mean that travel between the Land Without Magic and the Enchanted Forest would be time travel, which is explicitly against the Rules of Magic (unless you have the power of the three genies or the unholy combination of brains, courage, a heart, and a newborn). If every magic bean, mermaid, enchanted brig, magic door, and dark curse could time travel then it would make that more of a Guideline of Magic.

Season One climaxed in a time-traveling apple.

There is another connection between the Norse of our world and theirs, though: they both use(d) the Futhark alphabet. Queen Elsa even explicitly mentions it by name in one episode and is able to read it in another.

But everybody speaks English, even with regional (Australian, English) accents. And Belle can read script from "another language".

[KingOfHearts]

 

That would mean that travel between the Land Without Magic and the Enchanted Forest would be time travel, which is explicitly against the Rules of Magic (unless you have the power of the three genies or the unholy combination of brains, courage, a heart, and a newborn).

Replying in Speculation.

 

 

Season One climaxed in a time-traveling apple.

I'd say since the apple ceased to exist in the past, that would technically be changing history. It breaks the law most definitely. Without Jefferson's hat, it would have decomposed in the grass. (I'm surprised Regina didn't originally keep it as a memento.)

Edited January 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FormerMod-a1]

Timeline Headaches have been added to the Continuity and Nitpicks topic, the title has been updated to reflect the change.

[Camera One]

Questions that may never be answered... except on Twitter.

 

Someone asked about what happened to Thomas (Cinderella's Prince) after the events of "The Price of Gold", and Adam says Rumple kept him imprisoned, and then the Curse brought him to Storybrooke.  I guess that was obvious.  I don't remember too clearly but didn't Thomas disappear right after Cinders "tricked" Rumple into signing the scroll?  

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/561055953202597888

[Geeni]

But he would still be imprisoned in SB, wouldn't he? I mean, Belle was. I swear these writers don't think anything through.

[Serena]

But he would still be imprisoned in SB, wouldn't he? I mean, Belle was. I swear these writers don't think anything through.

Belle was because she was Regina's prisoner and Regina chose where she ended up. Thomas was Rumple's prisoner, and he had no power to dictate where he would end up in SB.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

Someone asked about what happened to Thomas (Cinderella's Prince) after the events of "The Price of Gold", and Adam says Rumple kept him imprisoned

Rumple said he "hadn't done anything" to Thomas. Not that Rumple doesn't lie, but I thought the episode implied otherwise to reinforce the idea of the "price of magic". If Rumple simply organized a capture, doesn't that nullify some supernatural price to be paid? Seems like a cop-out to me.

Edited February 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

So what was mysterious in that episode, is now completely not mysterious at all.  Wonderful.  Why the hell did Rumple want Cinderella's baby anyway?  It's not like he was hankering to raise a young'un around the castle.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Camera One

[Camera One]

In preparation for the Maleficent Retcon Festival commencing in March, I was rewatching a scene from Episode 2 of the series.

 

So in that episode, the Mirror said that Regina traded away the Dark Curse to Maleficent.  Why would Rumple let Regina give the Dark Curse to Maleficent?  Why did Rumple give the Curse to Regina so early, when he knew Snow needed to be pregnant before it should be cast?  Did Rumple tell Regina what the Dark Curse would do?  Since Maleficent sure seemed like she knew all about it, despite not knowing who made it.  So is the "Dark Curse" something all Sorcerers know about?  And why would Regina trade Maleficent the Dark Curse for a Sleeping Curse?  Regina knew how to make a Sleeping Curse in 2A, I thought.  And didn't Regina get that Apple from the Witch in the forest with the help of Hansel and Gretel?  If that Apple didn't have the Sleeping Curse in it, why was it necessary?

 

And of course, in that scene, I was reminded that Maleficent said, "Enacting it will take a terrible toll.  It will leave an emptiness inside you A void you will never be able to fill."  Is there a different definition for "never" in the Enchanted Forest?

 

I wonder if this will all make sense after 4B.  Bwahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

And of course, in that scene, I was reminded that Maleficent said, "Enacting it will take a terrible toll. It will leave an emptiness inside you. A void you will never be able to fill."  Is there a different definition for "never" in the Enchanted Forest?

 

Actually, (and I can't believe I'm defending the show right now), I think Regina's inability to ever be happy with what's in front of her - even though she should be completely content with Henry being back in her life after a year of separation and is verified as her True Love, Snow and Emma groveling at her feet to become her friend, and the fact that everyone in Storybrooke has forgiven her of her past evilness - is part of that "void" she can never fill. She should have been able to fill that void when she had a True Love's Kiss with Henry, but she immediately forgets about that when Robin is in town and now suddenly he's the only way she can truly be happy. Mark my words, if her and Robin ever get together permanently, there will be yet another void in her life she needs to fill to make her "happy." So in that sense, the show is actually still following that warning.

 

And does this same "terrible toll" apply to Snow as well for the Curse 2.0? Maybe that's why she's like a total robot around Emma... 

Edited February 3, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

Are they a confirmed true love couple? I don't remember. It's also possible he could have sold the baby to someone else. After all, that's where James went.

[LizaD]

 

Why the hell did Rumple want Cinderella's baby anyway?

He didn't. It was part of his long, complicated, and non-sensical con to end up in that prison to get baby Emma's name. It had to be something big for Cinderella and her Prince to want to fight him on and a baby was it. Also it's obviously tipping the hat to the original Rumpelstilltskin tale.

 

 

Are they a confirmed true love couple?

Maybe not explicitly on the show but I recall one of the writers alluding to it. I think someone asked why Cinderella's baby didn't have magic and one of them goes, not all true love babies have magic. Besides I really can't imagine why they wouldn't be true love when all the Disney-fied couples are. They just don't want to bother with a story for those 2.

[Camera One]

He didn't. It was part of his long, complicated, and non-sensical con to end up in that prison to get baby Emma's name. It had to be something big for Cinderella and her Prince to want to fight him on and a baby was it. Also it's obviously tipping the hat to the original Rumpelstilltskin tale.

 

It was early on in the series, so I agree it was meant to be a take on the Rumplestiltskin story.  But in hindsight, it didn't make all that much sense.  There was no guarantee Cinders and Thomas would become friends with Snow and Charming, nor even that Snow and Charming would become involved.  He could have gotten himself thrown in jail by jeering to Snowing that he knows how to stop Regina and he won't say until the time was right, or multitudes of different ways that didn't involve making a deal with Cinderella.  Was he even planning to stick around after killing the Fairy Godmother?  

[LizaD]

At that point he knew they were friends. Snow and Charming went to their wedding and was pretty chummy with them. I think he knew they would get involved cause they're busybody do-gooders and he's messed with them enough at that point to know that about them.

I thought it was a cool plot, the only good plot they've had in fact. It's been obliterated by the material since, with all the realm jumping but that's another subject.

It also neatly tied in with the making a deal with Emma on Cindy's behalf that finally did get him to Bae.

Edited February 4, 2015 by LizaD

[KingOfHearts]

 

But in hindsight, it didn't make all that much sense.

It could be that Rumple saw the future and knew Emma was going to make a deal with him. Even if he only knew about pregnant Ashley going to be in Storybrooke, he could have used her baby as leverage for any deal. He probably even got the quill to the fairies somehow to use it on him. Everything is complicated with Rumple. He sees all the potential futures, you know!

Edited February 4, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

He sees all the potential futures, you know!

 

I was thinking about that too.  That future-sight he has sure is a convenient way of explaining away Rumple's convoluted plots.  He had to do so-and-so because he saw a snippet of it... very clever setup in terms of writing, but to me, not very satisfying as a viewer.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

He had to do so-and-so because he saw a snippet of it...

So, That's So Raven style?

 

 

very clever setup in terms of writing, but to me, not very satisfying as a viewer.

It's to pave over plot holes with cheap asphalt. Nevermind the million other ways Rumple could have used to find Bae - the show's going with prophecy! It could take the effort to give actual explanations, but why take the extra time to do that when you can have an umbrella solution?

[KingOfHearts]

When Emma believed in 1x22, did she get the memories of herself as a baby in EF, or was it simply belief? The flashes seemed to imply she remembered her time as an infant and being thrown in the wardrobe.

[Writing Wrongs]

What's with Cinderella's baby? In that mommy and me episode she is holding a baby named "Alex" (who looked like a boy to me), but "Alexandra" was born in Season 1. Did the second curse affect aging again?

[Dani-Ellie]

I think season 1 to season 4 comprises roughly a year and a half, give or take and including the missing year. The whole of season 2 was like maybe three months, 3A was a week, then we had the year time jump. 3B was at most two weeks, and 4A can't have been that long, either.

 

I'd buy that baby being a small 18- to 20-month-old (girl, as I have a friend whose daughter turned 2 in November and she still doesn't have a lot of hair).

Edited February 17, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

My friends have a daughter who just turned two and who still looks like a baby, so I guess I can kind of handwave there. She walks and talks, but if you saw a picture of her or just saw her when her mother was holding her, you'd think she was maybe a year old.

 

I've been pondering the population density of the Enchanted Forest and surrounding lands. Curse 1 supposedly took that whole land, minus whoever was in the Coradome, plus reaching into Wonderland for Jefferson (and maybe Will, depending on where he was at that time) and the World Without Color for Frankenstein/Whale. It's hard to tell the true geographic reach of the curse. Apparently even though they knew it was coming, running away wasn't an option, and it got people from other kingdoms like Eric, Abigail, and George, though we don't know about Midas. Curse 2 seemed to have a smaller geographical reach, since Hook could outrun it and it didn't get Eric, but there was no Coradome.

 

And yet, all those people fit into a small town.

 

We haven't really seen a "city" in the Enchanted Forest, have we? The closest I can think of is wherever the docks are and then the place where Regina went in her peasant woman disguise. Unlike most royal castles in the real world, it doesn't seem like a city has grown up around these. Charming, Hook and Ruby went straight into Regina's palace from the forest rather than having to go through city streets. So maybe if it is all rural and most of it is forest, there are only 20,000 or so people (for me, that's stretching the definition of "small"). But still, a good portion of a world fits into a single small town?

[KingOfHearts]

 

We haven't really seen a "city" in the Enchanted Forest, have we? The closest I can think of is wherever the docks are and then the place where Regina went in her peasant woman disguise.

There was the city Jefferson and Grace were in where Regina disguised herself as a hag, and the town Rumple and Bae were living in in Nasty Habits.

[Shanna Marie]

There was the city Jefferson and Grace were in where Regina disguised herself as a hag, and the town Rumple and Bae were living in in Nasty Habits.

So if that's not all the same city -- and also the same city Regina visited in peasant mode when Snow had to save her -- then it's even weirder that they could apparently fit the entire population of the kingdom, plus some other places, in a single small town. I know "medieval" cities were smaller, but not so small that an entire kingdom could fit in a small American town.

 

But if it was a small place being affected, why not run? They had enough warning to build the wardrobe. Or was Snow the epicenter of the curse, wherever she was?

[Delphi]

I don't think it was just the cora dome that protected the forest, arendelle was untouched.

I think it was season two when Regina said regarding Whales family that she brought who she wanted with the curse. She thought the rest of the forest would be destroyed or lied about it I forget.

So I imagine that after all the royalty of the enchanted forest were taken, Ella, Maurice, belle, etc. The realm was in chaos. Plus Rumple wasn't there to keep the ogres in control so they ran crazy.

I don't think Regina modified her curse for Snow, rather it was the same curse she used the first time, hence why Will is back, but presumably the lost boys aren't. Id imagine Tink is actually still in the enchanted forest, as well as Tiny. I don't think Hook out ran the curse like he claims. I think he just doesn't realize the curse didn't effect him.