S35.E13: Million Dollar Night

[burner]

The advantage wasn't the fire making twist - allegedly that was going to happen regardless of who won the challenge. The advantage was giving Chrissy a heads-up about the twist so she could think about it and give someone else (Devon) a chance to practice fire making.

 

I just wish there was a way to confirm it was the plan all along to have that final twist because it seemed INCREDIBLY contrived to keep Ben in the game. But had Ben won, it would have given Chrissy a chance to stay in the game too so I guess whatever.

[ljenkins782]

4 hours ago, babs1226 said:

He wasn't searching through the forest in the dark, he was searching around the well.  You don't need light to dig in the sand,  By the time he actually saw the dig sign on the raft, it was already getting light out.   And Jeff announced that there would be a twist at the next immunity challenge the night before anyone competed.  Nobody knew at that point who was going to win immunity.  Ben would have won immunity if he hadn't put his u upside down,  That challenge was anyone's to win, so if Ben had won, would people be complaining that the twist wasn't fair to him?  Mike said in a talking head that Ben had to go because he was playing for his wife and kids, and that made him ferocious.  Damn right!  If you were in Ben's position at final 5, would you just throw in the towel, or would you do everything you could to stay alive, even trying to find an idol in the dark?

I doubt he was only searching by the well and the raft. Obviously they can't show the hours he spent searching, but if it lasted long enough for the sun to be rising, it couldn't have been just those 2 spots. 

Quote

 

Choose Ryan as the person safe and then hand her immunity necklace to Devon.  And SHE competes for fire.  Because it's the only way she gets to tribal without Ben.

Quote

She doesn’t have the guts to do something like that. She assumed (emphasis on ASS) that she’d sail into the winner’s circle.

I don't think she assumed that at all. I think she knew Ben would almost certainly win, hence being so determined - and not just at F4 - to get him out. 

It would have been a very cool scenario though - I'm not sure I could see anyone doing it though, just for the risk of losing and claiming the crown of Dumbest Survivor Ever from whoever is currently wearing it. 

 

As for the middle quote, I find it deeply ironic that the same person who is always insisting that Abi Maria is actually a great person and was entirely a victim of bad editing is so extremely confident that Chrissy is an awful person based on the work of the same Survivor editing team, lol. ;) 

And it seemed pretty clear that they all recognized him as a threat. I do think Chrissy took things personally, but I also think she, and most of the others, realized that Ben would have a good story at FTC and didn't want to sit next to him. 

Quote

 

I think they spitball these things and have them as options but I've read on boards in the past that they don't have to use them and can make changes on the fly.  This isn't The Amazing Race where the non-elimination legs are absolutely locked in in advance.  Survivor has always had wiggle room during the season.

And they are using that wiggle room more and more these days to shape their "entertainment show" to what they want to happen.  This season pushed it up to Big Brother levels.  Which is NOT a good thing.

 

I think they've always had flexibility going all the way back to season 3 when the young people were lording their numbers over the older people on one tribe. Out of nowhere, there was a tribal switch that decimated the young people alliance. 

[ByaNose]

Just rewatched Episode 1. I always do that after the Finale. There is a little foreshadowing to us (the viewers) about Devon. The tribe that came in second after jumping off the ship and to raise their tribe can of fire would win flint. Jeff says, “It’s not as pretty but gets the job done. Flint! With this you can make fire.” The camera is squarely on Devon in a tight close up. Darn! Why didn’t I pick up on that hint? LOL!!!!!! Although, his tribe came in third and didn’t win anything. It’s funny to see everyone clean and healthy, too. The struggle is real folks. LOL!!!!!!

Edited December 22, 2017 by ByaNose

[kikaha]

11 hours ago, Daisy said:

that's pretty much it. it's (in my opinion) justifying a bad decision. 
Final 3 is dumb. it should be final two. ...

I feel i should copy and paste this

Borneo: 4 - 3
Outback - 4-3
Africa - 5- 2 
Marquesas - 4-3
Thailand - 4-3
Amazon - 6-1 (because Matthew was creepy  and he basically admitted that he didn't really play the game.)
Pearl islands 6 -1 (because it was Lil. had it been someone not int he Outcast tribe I don't think it's this blow outy)
All Stars - 4-3
Vanuatu: 5-2 
Palau: 6-1 (well deserved - woulda been close had Ian not Ian'ed)
Guatemala (6-1. Stephanie was bru.tal.)
Panama (5-2)
Micronesia - 5-3 
Tocancins - 7-0 
Cagayan - 8-1. (because Woo. was flipping stupid. but I don't think had Kass been there it would have been a blown out, nor would it have been one had it been Spencer/Tony, Tony/Kass). 


so basically - the first 12 seasons, it was pretty darned even.  all the blow outs totally make sense if you knew the background of that season.  Stephen wasn't a goat, he just had a HORRIBLE final, and JT totally tap-danced. Katie (Goat) but Ian gave it to her. Danielle + Kim ("goats") but they won final immunity  (which is the point).

in the final 3 format.

Cook Islands - 5-4 (Yul, totally could have been Ozzy, Becky. 0 votes)
Fiji 9-0. (Dreamz was never winning after the car thing, and Cassandra: goat)
China: 4-2-1. (Is Courtney a goat? is Amanda? if Amanda doesn't choke and Courtney isn't there it's a lot closer or is it more of a Todd blow out/) )
Gabon 4-3-0 (Sugar is the Goat)
Samoa: 7-2-0 (Mick + Russell, end of story)
HvV: 6-3-0. (Russell goat again)
Nicaragua: 5-4-0 (but people fully admitted Chase got a lot of pity votes,)
Redemption Island: 8-1-0 (that whole season was goat-y)
South Pacific (6-3-0)
One World: (7-2-0)
Philippines (6-1-1)
Caramoan (8-0-0 - but I claim bitter betty cakes, Dawn should have gotten some but whatever)
San Juan del Sur: 5-2-1
Blood vs. water: 7-1-0
Worlds Apart: 6-1-1
Cambodia: 10-0-0
Kaoh Rong: 5-2-0
M vs GenX: 10-0-0 
Game Changers: 7-3-0

and now. HHH: 5-2-1

whatever ideology the show had regarding goats, and easy wins. went out the window a long time ago. I think having two people going against the jury (even in this new format) makeshift more sense then forcing a third person sit there and be all "oh did stuff too" (votes indicate otherwise) and you don't have to worry about the stupid "tie" breaker because you'll always have that "final odd" person to trump it. and it just makes more emotional sense. you start off as 16 (18, 20), and then it's just the two of you to become the sole survivor. 
 

I think F3 is much better.  Mainly because it brings winners to finals who otherwise would have become the last jury members. 

e.g, Yul probably would not have made finals if Cook Islands had been F2.  Sandra wouldn't have made finals in HvV.  Nat probably wouldn't have made finals in BvW2; neither would Denise in Philippines.  Those are off the top of my head: I bet there are others. 

In short, some of the most highly-thought of Survivor winners would likely not have won with F2. 

The flip side is the people who probably would have won, if they had played during an F3 season.  Rob C is one example.  Cirie might be another in Micronesia.  Ian might have won Palau: it certainly would have made a far more interesting vote than the one we actually got.  Terry almost surely would have won his first season.  

That's the advantage F3 gives us.  More options.  I like it better that way.   

[Subrookie]

I haven't had the chance to read everything before this post. I just watched this and here is what I learned :

I don't care what people said here before this episode, Chrissie deserved to win. Probably, one of my favorite female players ever. 

I now know how democrats felt on election night. 

So tired of easily found idols.

This show is biased towards physical challenges. Women can win when they design challenges that favor puzzles. Peaches just likes guys like Colby to win. 

I am totally sympathetic to Ben and his military service but that should not be why anyone wins this game. 

[KimberStormer]

BA

LONEY

So I am late to the party because I actually literally forgot it was Wednesday yesterday, which says something about this season.  I think I know this board well enough to know that it's already too late for anyone to really see my post.  I am eager to read your guys' thoughts because I imagine that, like me, you think this ending was absolutely ridiculous, but unlike me, you all hate Chrissy with a passion so I wonder what people are landing on.  Ryan FTW?  I can't wait to find out!  But right now it's late, I've got Pilates in the morning, and I'm not getting through all the pages of posts tonight so I'm going to just say that I thought Devon voting for Ryan was surprising and adorable (I actually said "awwww" out loud), that of course Mike patted himself on the back that he would surely have won if he hadn't lost, that being able to fast forward through Jeff's wasting time with the studio audience mid-show is a blessing, and that I finally was not bored by Desi when she unexpectedly decided she would take the reins of the FTC for herself.  JP on the other hand did exactly as expected and said nothing.

If I were Chrissy, reading that "advantage" I would have recited exactly Devon's line from when he read the one Jessica used on him....absolute, unmitigated bullshit.  I thought they knew this terrible twist going in to the game, not that it was going to be a last-minute completely transparent producer contrivance to save their favored contestant...

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, NeverLate said:

There was still flint to practise with, it broke in half. Use the half!

My thought as well.  Personally, though, I don’t think Devon truly believed he needed to practice more.  I got the impression Devon thought he had the fire making Comp in the bag.

 

8 hours ago, green said:

And you can't practice with half a flint.  You'd just keep hitting your finger because the flint was too short.

Sure you can; 1/2 a flint is still a pretty decent size.  I have several halves in my backpacking rigs which work just fine, because I’m just that cheap.  ;)   

Break the flint again down to a 1/4, though, and yeah it’s going to start getting chancy to use - especially when your striker is a machete.  ;>

[tessat]

For all the conspiracy theorists - if this game was skewed to keep Ben in - why then did Chrissy win the challenge when her S was upside down in Heros? Yes it's a technicality but due to the font used - there is a definite  top of the S and a definite bottom. In all other challenges - the pieces used must be in the correct positions. This was a screen catch a fan got for all the theorists! Look at the photos to the right - click to enlarge!

 

https://twitter.com/taymarc_

[Daisy]

2 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

BA

LONEY

So I am late to the party because I actually literally forgot it was Wednesday yesterday, which says something about this season.  I think I know this board well enough to know that it's already too late for anyone to really see my post.  I am eager to read your guys' thoughts because I imagine that, like me, you think this ending was absolutely ridiculous, but unlike me, you all hate Chrissy with a passion so I wonder what people are landing on.  Ryan FTW?  I can't wait to find out!  But right now it's late, I've got Pilates in the morning, and I'm not getting through all the pages of posts tonight so I'm going to just say that I thought Devon voting for Ryan was surprising and adorable (I actually said "awwww" out loud), that of course Mike patted himself on the back that he would surely have won if he hadn't lost, that being able to fast forward through Jeff's wasting time with the studio audience mid-show is a blessing, and that I finally was not bored by Desi when she unexpectedly decided she would take the reins of the FTC for herself.  JP on the other hand did exactly as expected and said nothing.

If I were Chrissy, reading that "advantage" I would have recited exactly Devon's line from when he read the one Jessica used on him....absolute, unmitigated bullshit.  I thought they knew this terrible twist going in to the game, not that it was going to be a last-minute completely transparent producer contrivance to save their favored contestant...

lololol we don't always agree, but when we do we agree wholeheartedly. 
I don't hate Chrissy. (but again I would have been fine with Ben winning without this dumby twist)

[Daisy]

6 hours ago, kikaha said:

I think F3 is much better.  Mainly because it brings winners to finals who otherwise would have become the last jury members. 

e.g, Yul probably would not have made finals if Cook Islands had been F2.  Sandra wouldn't have made finals in HvV.  Nat probably wouldn't have made finals in BvW2; neither would Denise in Philippines.  Those are off the top of my head: I bet there are others. 

In short, some of the most highly-thought of Survivor winners would likely not have won with F2. 

The flip side is the people who probably would have won, if they had played during an F3 season.  Rob C is one example.  Cirie might be another in Micronesia.  Ian might have won Palau: it certainly would have made a far more interesting vote than the one we actually got.  Terry almost surely would have won his first season.  

That's the advantage F3 gives us.  More options.  I like it better that way.   

that's fair. and again, I respect that decision. 
but in my mind: that doesn't matter simply because we don't know. if they don't win because we don't know if they win final immunity (okay Sandra wouldn't).  we don't know how they'd wheel and deal to get themselves there. (i mean, Hatch literally had to throw a challenge to ensure he actually got to the final two with less blood on his hands. I'm pretty sure down the line someone would be able to do something similar)

also - final 3 robs of of great moments. 
yes. a final 3 could have given us a better option in Palau/Guatemala . but it robs us of Ian and Rafe being so mentally exhausted they choose to quit/honour commitments, leaving us with a great survivor moments (and debatable options to come). I Adore Cirie, I don't hide this at all - and while I think the final 3 option easily could have saved her - had the producers flat out told them that there was a Final 2 option I am positive the woman would have found a way that season to make it). I also adore Sandra - and i would have been happy with Parv being a two time winner. (and that's assuming that Russell doesn't win final immunity and take Sandra, remember, Russell thought Sandra was a goat. he could have easily dumpe Parv, and taken Sandra).  way too many options and scenarios to just think (though I see why you'd or anyone else would get there) - that we'd be robbed of great winners. 

the argument from production has been to eliminate people dragging weaker people to the end because of blow outs. - looking at the numbers that's false.  now the argument of this dumby twist is the "help those who played great games have a better chance." which is the stupidest thing I swear I've heard Jeff say and he's said a lot of whoppers over the years. Quite frankly - there shouldn't be "more options."  the players need better ways to navigate the waters of Survivor. thats the point.  I said somehere else. like people want those in final 3 (and now 4) to have a better chance because they played a good game. so then why not have the same outrage for the first person voted out who could have had the chance to play a good game. it's a very dangerous slope iin my opinion. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Daisy

[Ellee]

I’m giggling at Chrissy having an upside ‘S’ in her puzzle.  Thank you for the post.  :D

Apparently ‘the fix’ was in for Chrissy to win her fourth IC.  

To the keepers of Survivor stats... Will Chrissy have an * by her name for wins? 

And for the record I’m teasing about all this as I don’t take these shows that seriously. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Ellee

[Al Herkimer]

23 hours ago, neece26 said:

  I really don't have a problem with the final "twist".  If Ben had placed his "u" correctly and won the final immunity challenge, then Chrissy would have had the same lifeline he was thrown to control her own fate in the game. 

But it wouldn't have mattered. If Ben made it to the final 3, he was going to win. That was evident a long time ago. So Chrissy played the best possible game and should have been successful in keeping him out of the final 3.  I was rooting for Ben all along but this disgusted me. The twist was designed specifically to keep Ben in the game and give him the win.

[Al Herkimer]

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Why not? Let us disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is some law preventing producer manipulation, here and now. We have covered this topic repeatedly over the years. "Survivor" and other reality shows are not categorized as "game shows" and are not subject to the same regulations. They are classified as "entertainment," and there is nothing stopping production from helping their perceived fan favorites along in the game. Nothing.

Look, I could debate endlessly whether or not production helped Ben find all those idols. I mean, sure, it's equally possible he just found them through sheer luck and determination and none of the camera crew or anyone tipped him off. But that so-called "advantage" Chrissy got? Was not an advantage. That's really not up for debate. In no way, shape or form did it give her an advantage. It effectively prevented her, Devon and Ryan from voting out Ben, plain and simple. That's some Grade-A bullshit, right there.

And I have no problem believing there was another "advantage" on stand-by just in case Ben won final immunity. Something to the effect of "you get to nullify one jury vote." The producers knew damn well Ben was going to get voted out if he didn't win immunity and they were prepared to prevent it even before they knew who won. This was planned.

I agree with all of this, but I do believe that there's no need to have a different "advantage" on standby. If Ben wins the final immunity, give him the same advantage.  Why not? He wins at that point, anyway.  I think they had created that advantage when they saw it might be the only was to get Ben to the end.  But it's not "technically" cheating, because any of the 4 could have won it.  I was rooting for Ben, but was disgusted by the manipulation that gave him the win.

[ProfCrash]

I don't believe for a second that this twist was invented for Ben. Ben benefited from it but this would have been something decided on before the season started.

[Al Herkimer]

1 minute ago, ProfCrash said:

I don't believe for a second that this twist was invented for Ben. Ben benefited from it but this would have been something decided on before the season started.

I would be so incredibly happy if I could believe that.  I wonder if there's any way to know for sure? 

[Guest]

I don't think the show is allowed to make up twists as it goes along.  I think Standards & Practices is out there.  I think Dalton Ross has mentioned that before.

I too forgot the finale was Wed. and watched it last night.  And I didn't mind the season. 

I don't like Ben, but the jury saw more of his game than I did so I respect their choice.  Anyone listening to RHAP or interviews from jurors saying why they voted Ben?  I hope it wasn't because he's the poorest or the vet.  If the poorest player with the most kids wins, why play at all.  I wanted to tell him, "You want your kids' college funded and your retirement, too?  Do what the majority of us do and go to college and get a real job and fund those things yourself."  

[Al Herkimer]

15 hours ago, illdoc said:

People have said "Well, it wasn't a last-minute thing (that last "secret advantage") to make sure Ben got in, because anyone including Ben could have won immunity". Well, I say, "who says that there was only one secret advantage?". If we are going to go "full-on conspiracy", why not say there were two--one in Jeff's left pocket in case Ben won and one in his right pocket if anyone else won (for example) and that Ben's "secret advantage" would have been something different! And, for the record, I think the "game-show fixing" involves rigging so that a certain contestant wins the prize. Technically, it would only be rigging to get Ben to the end (where obviously he would win, but theoretically could still lose).

Why have two advantages?  I think that would be outright cheating, and unnecessary. Give Ben the same "advantage" Chrissy got. It wouldn't matter.  If he got to the final, he was going to win.  I think that production didn't actually cheat from a legal standpoint, whatever that is.  They introduced a "twist" that could have affected any player.  But I think it was designed with the dynamics of this group in mind, designed "on the fly" and not from when they first started this season. They should, and do, have the right to introduce a twist, mix up the tribes, whatever, if they feel a need to make the show more interesting... as long as they aren't outright cheating one player in favor of another.  while I feel that the introduction of this twist was specifically designed to cheat Chrissy in favor of Ben, in a "legal" sense, I can see the argument that it was "fair" because it applied to everyone.

[Special K]

15 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Anyone listening to RHAP or interviews from jurors saying why they voted Ben?  I hope it wasn't because he's the poorest or the vet.  If the poorest player with the most kids wins, why play at all.  I wanted to tell him, "You want your kids' college funded and your retirement, too?  Do what the majority of us do and go to college and get a real job and fund those things yourself."  

Harsh but so true. 

Anyone know what he does for a living?

[peachmangosteen]

I mean, plenty of people went to college and have 'real jobs' and still have trouble funding their kids college funds.

[Guest]

And yet they usually have no trouble funding the latest iphone and leasing a different car every third year and $200 cable bills and all the other non-investment crap people spend their money on.  

20 minutes ago, Special K said:

Harsh but so true. 

Anyone know what he does for a living?

I found this that says he works at a grocery warehouse as a stocker. 

http://www.cbs8.com/story/37115314/survivor-winner-ben-driebergen-reveals-how-hell-spend-his-1-million-prize-exclusive

Which is kind of funny because my daughter and I had this conversation during the show and I said, "He probably works at Wal-Mart," thinking what would he do that the show would never mention, instead cherry picking his most interesting past vocation, as they and all reality shows are wont to do.  I still laugh at BB's Austin, the "pro wrestler", which he did for about a month.  

Edited December 22, 2017 by Guest

[fishcakes]

Chrissy didn't win, so the season is somewhat redeemed for me. As for the idea that she was cheated, no one who wins the final immunity in an F3 season is guaranteed the choice of who they sit next to at the finals. In an F2 season, yes, you pick your opponent, but in an F3 season, the only thing final immunity guarantees you is that you get to F3, not who you sit next to. If Ben had won final immunity, he would have wanted to vote Chrissy out, but wouldn't have been able to and she would have been the one who got the chance to make fire. His social game wasn't strong enough to maintain an alliance; her social game wasn't strong enough to win the whole thing. Those are the breaks. At least Chrissy has the satisfaction of knowing that she tied for the most immunity wins by a woman in a single season. I believe she might have mentioned that once or 12 times.

I'm okay with Ben's win, but his hero edit for the finale was over the top. All it was missing was Trace Adkins singing us into every commercial with a song he'd written about Ben.

Edited December 22, 2017 by fishcakes

[ProfCrash]

The interviews I have read and listened too have had pretty generic explanations for their votes. Chrissy and Ryan both said that they would have voted for Ben had there been a tie at the final tribal and they were the third place person.

I have said for a while that I had no problem with a Ben or Chrissy win.

Ben played a solid, if loud and socially inept game. Ben was at the head of a large alliance, an important part of the new lead alliance, and behind the removal of a large number of the jury members. He hustled to find those idols and was smart in keeping the idol finds to himself. He used one hidden idol in a new way that changed that tribal council. Had Ben won final immunity and made his way to the final, I would have been cool with his win. He had played a great game. Toss in that people were discussing needing to get him out for an awful long time, long before he was on the bottom, because of his game play and his back story and it was clear that Ben had the win if he made the final tribal.

My only objection to Ben's win is that a new twist was tossed into the pot at a point in time that no one could adjust to the twist. I think that the path to the final tribal should be clear at the beginning of the game. Ben should not have had a chance to win with fire unless there was a tie vote at the final four tribal. I understand that anyone could have benefited from that twist but that doesn't make it better.

Chrissy played a solid game, even though it was socially inept. She played from the bottom in her first tribe, and was written off and ignored by most of those folks. She established a solid alliance with Ryan and JP. She was an important part of the alliance of seven until Lauren decided to make it an alliance of four. She played from the bottom again and took advantage of cracks in the new alliance and the chaos caused by Ben's idol finds. She won a ton of immunities.

I do think that Chrissy was hit harder by the social play then Ben, although Ben was clearly called out for his bad social play. I think Joe's question got at the idea that as the Mom, Chrissy was expected to be something different then she was. It was clear that Chrissy was listening to people and discussing their lives with them. She was not discussing strategy but she was not ignoring people. I think that it feel into something similar to the Dawn scenario, that the person asking you about your life and talking to you about personal things should not the person voting you out. Ben was called out for discussing himself but not asking about others but Chrissy was dinged in exit interviews (and I suspect votes) for learning about peoples personal lives and stories and then voting them out.  It was not called out as directly as Dawn was. I think that is because it was clear who Chrissy was working with and she would not pretend to be playing the game with folks she was not aligned with but I do think it irked folks. I am thinking of Desi on this one.

Mike said he voted for Chrissy because she played the game hard and he appreciated the she got to the final the old school way, winning immunities and through alliances.

Rob and others have asked if the jury valued Ben's idol finds and plays more because they saw the play and the reaction to it directly and they don't see the individual immunity win. It has been suggested that there is more value to watching the idol played at tribal because they are there in the moment and it feels bigger so they credit it more. Honestly, I think if it was a man who had won the four immunities and gotten into the final that way, the man would have won. But that is my gut feeling and not supported by anything anyone said.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I think if it was a man who had won the four immunities and gotten into the final that way, the man would have won.

Interesting.  I wonder if future female players should maybe be mindful of keeping more women around until the back half, to pad the jury with more women.  There were only 3 of 8 this year.  Though two of them voted for Ben so probably not worth bothering.  

I value immunity wins over idol finds because finding idols seems kind of luck-based.  Not that getting up before dawn to hunt isn't laudable.  But same for fire making.  I think it's clear that Ben wasn't really more experienced or skilled at fire making, he was just lucky his spark caught first.  I don't like when $1M hinges so heavily on luck, which is a big flaw in TAR and their taxi issues.  

[babs1226]

11 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

I doubt he was only searching by the well and the raft. Obviously they can't show the hours he spent searching, but if it lasted long enough for the sun to be rising, it couldn't have been just those 2 spots.

I can only comment on what we were shown,not on what anyone assumes.  However,we have no idea what time tribal council ended, so who knows how much time he had.

[ProfCrash]

2 minutes ago, babs1226 said:

I can only comment on what we were shown,not on what anyone assumes.  However,we have no idea what time tribal council ended, so who knows how much time he had.

We were shown Ben rooting around the forest as well. He started at the well, pouring water down the sides of the well, over the lid and then digging around. Then we were shown him in the forest running his hands through trees and the like. Then we were shown him sitting by the raft. He sat down right after saying that he had been up all night searching and he was exhausted but he had to do it for his family. It was very clear from the edit that he had been searching all night long and in a multitude of places. They did not show the full nights search but they did show him searching in three different locations.

[Destiny74]

Chrissy would be a nasty person whether she was a female or a male.  I don't differentiate between jerk men and jerk women.  I hated Tony because he was the same type of smug Chrissy was.  I hated Russell because he was a jerk.  I hated Abi.Maria because she was a bitch, etc...

Been was obnoxious with the bomb sounds but he had a right to be a bit childish because he really was blowing up the game.

Chrissy sounded like she was reading from a notebook of facts at the final tc.  She didn't care about these people.  She learned about their lives to have an in at the ftc.  They jury knew it, they felt it, therefore, all her "getting to know people" crap was just that, crap.

The final twist was garbage, and I am still glad Ben won.

Mike was the one who lost the game for Chrissy, if anyone but her was responsible.  When he destroyed that shell, didn't that put another HII into play?  Without that HII Ben would've been out before the final four.

What was with Mike saying he would have won if he had made it to the end?  Hell, Ryan played a.better game than Mike.  He's delusional.

[survivinmt]

I don't think Ben won BECAUSE he was a vet. I think they were trying to vote him out partially because he was a vet though. One of the main reasons Ben won is because everyone else guaranteed him that the ONLY way for him not to get voted out was for him to find or win an idol. If they could have lied to him good enough for him not to be ASSURED that he could only save himself - he may have given up looking for idols. So part of his motivation was their poor social play.

Edited December 22, 2017 by survivinmt

[BarneySays]

Quote

It was in no way an advantage for Chrissy. She had a solid plan to vote out Ben and go to the F3 with Ryan and Devon, both of whom she thought she could beat. That "advantage" forced her to do something she never would have done otherwise and give Ben a chance to stay in the game. If it were truly an advantage, then Chrissy should have been given the option to simply not use it. The only person who benefited from that advantage was Ben.

 

It was an advantage to the player who won immunity because s/he could then select on her own one person to sit beside her.  And could warn one player of the challenge so s/he could prepare for it.  I don't see how this could be perceived as not an advantage.  The fact that it was not advantageous for Chrissy personally because the existence of the twist thwarted her (and her alliance's plan) is simply a twist of the game.  If anyone were robbed, it was Devon.  He bucked the usual trend of passively going along when he decided (in a saving move) to vote for Doc.  To save yourself so dramatically and then turn around and have to fight to stay in was more disheartening than the thought that chrissie was denied her cakewalk.

The view that somehow Chrissy was robbed of her right to the $1 mm by the twist seems based on a false sense of entitlement to the $1 mm that was wrongly taken from her.  We have no way of knowing whether she would have stood a chance against Devon.  Of the three of them, I would have picked him over the other two.  I was happy to see the jury reject the notion of the hapless runt loser as winner simply because story structure tells us that the runt ultimately loses.  Telling him directly that he did nothing other than hitch his wagon properly was a refreshing change from propping up losers like cochran and (was it?) aubrey, and that (was it?) david guy. 

The highlight of the show to me was the scene where chrissie was trying to butter up Ben solely for a jury vote.  The words and pauses were Pinteresque- each humoring the other, not even convincing themselves that they were sincere (although I wonder if chrissie thought she were successful). That was also a perfect view of what so many found unpleasant about her.  She laid it on real thick, with all of the conviction she could muster, but none of it even remotely sincere.  That level of disrespect is insulting.  It was a dramatic payoff that Ben had the last laugh.

I am not convinced Chrissie would have won against Devon.  She was given a very positive edit on final tribal council, but still her desperation and insincerity shown through.  The desperate bickering between her and Ryan was comical in its embarrassment.  And the mothers are ipso facto heroes was insulting to the intelligence of not just mothers, but all people.  It was obviously her manipulative emotional plea to the jury.  I wouldn't be surprised that it would have lost her votes (and would have against devon as well). 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Production doesn't rig challenges so much as certain challenges naturally favor certain players.

Notice they never did the challenge where each player knocks out someone else's tiles, the one where everyone can gang up on one person to eliminate them from the challenge. Because they knew everyone would go after Ben, and they didn't want that.

 

Quote

I don't think the show is allowed to make up twists as it goes along.  I think Standards & Practices is out there.  I think Dalton Ross has mentioned that before.

Allowed? Who's to stop them, and who's going to prove whether they came up with it on the spur of the moment or not? Again, reality shows like "Survivor" are not governed by the same laws as game shows. They are classified as "entertainment" and the producers can do whatever the hell they want. There's a persistent misconception about this. Probably people telling themselves they "can't" rig the game because they don't want to believe it's true.

[Alapaki]

5 minutes ago, BarneySays said:

It was an advantage to the player who won immunity because s/he could then select on her own one person to sit beside her.  And could warn one player of the challenge so s/he could prepare for it.  I d

Being able to select is only on advantage compared to not being able to select.

But that’s comparing the shitty scenario TPTB put into place, with an even shittier scenario they hypothetically could have put into place. 

The proper comparison, imo, is between the shitty scenario TPTB put into place, and the traditional system of voting. 

Viewed in that light, I can’t see a single circumstance in which the winner of the Final 4 IC is benefitted by the new format  

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, iMonrey said:

Allowed? Who's to stop them, and who's going to prove whether they came up with it on the spur of the moment or not? Again, reality shows like "Survivor" are not governed by the same laws as game shows. They are classified as "entertainment" and the producers can do whatever the hell they want. There's a persistent misconception about this. Probably people telling themselves they "can't" rig the game because they don't want to believe it's true.

I love the conspiracy theorists....

Any way, every journalist and podcaster who is out there has mentioned the Standards and Practice folks out there. They are there to insure that the game is fair and sticks to whatever plan they have developed or approve changes that are made for whatever reason. Does that leave room for wonky things to happen? I suppose. But the various twists, advantages and the like are set at the beginning of the game. They are not randomly developed simply to help a particular contestant. As has been pointed out by a fair number of people on this board, anyone could have won that immunity and the "advantage", including Ben. And if they were rigging a challenge, I doubt that they would have come up with the various puzzle challenges that they had at the last set of challenges once they knew that Chrissy was that good at puzzles. If they wanted to make sure Ben got to the finals, they would have changed the challenges to be more in his favor.

They swap up the challenges precisely to prevent one particular group of people from always winning.

I am not going to google it, but there was a huge brewwhahahah after the second season because people figured out that some of the shots we saw in the show were reshot or shot with extras from a helicopter to make for better footage. It had no effect on the game but people were up in arms that the show was being manipulated. It was this massive out cry. It was very clear what type of lawyers and managers they have out there to prevent Production from rigging things to favor a particular contestant.

So, no how matter the show is categorized, there are people who are paid to be on the set to insure that Production is playing it straight. If not for legal reason, because they know that the show will fail miserably if it is shown that there is any sort of rigging. We know that some of the awful ideas were proposed by fans of the show (Tyler Perry Idol anyone). We have reporters who are out there and see what is happening.

Feel free to believe that it is rigged if you want but it is not. And if it is, and it is ever proven, CBS will be paying out millions of dollars in penalties as every past contestant will sue the show for screwing with their chances of winning because of manipulation and it will be a massive publicity nightmare.

[kikaha]

2 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Honestly, I think if it was a man who had won the four immunities and gotten into the final that way, the man would have won.

Perhaps this season -- certainly true if the man was Ben -- but Brad won the last four ICs in Game Changers, and watched Sarah easily win the season.  Interesting this has happened two seasons in a row.  Says to me winning challenges isn't close to the most important thing in winning the votes of jurors, no matter what the gender.  

I doubt Survivor is rigged.  But I also doubt CBS has any liability either way.  Pretty sure the contestants sign waivers that, among other things, give CBS total freedom to do whatever it chooses. 

[Rachel RSL]

17 hours ago, green said:

There was nothing wrong what Chrissy said.  Joe decided not to marry because his parents got divorced when he was young.  That isn't something deep and personal.  It is just something he told Chrissy like he probably told numerous people throughout his life.  And he asked for something personal from Chrissy.

Not to mention, Joe and Chrissy didn't know each other before they got to Fiji so this is obviously something Joe told her, on camera, during the filming of the show. I don't see why it's a big deal for Chrissy to repeat something he's already said on camera.

7 hours ago, tessat said:

For all the conspiracy theorists - if this game was skewed to keep Ben in - why then did Chrissy win the challenge when her S was upside down in Heros? Yes it's a technicality but due to the font used - there is a definite  top of the S and a definite bottom. In all other challenges - the pieces used must be in the correct positions. This was a screen catch a fan got for all the theorists! Look at the photos to the right - click to enlarge!

Hmmm....S is one of those letters that can work both ways though. Who's to say which is the top and which is the bottom? (Unless, of course, they were told beforehand that one specific part is the top.) I'd be interested in seeing screenshots from everyone else's letters to see if they all had the S going the same way.

55 minutes ago, BarneySays said:

It was an advantage to the player who won immunity because s/he could then select on her own one person to sit beside her. 

Without that "advantage", she could have selected both people to sit beside her.

[tessat]

You can see the difference in the S - my point being that usually in these competitions - everything has to be spot on and in the photo it clearly show the S is upside down as far as the font. 
People are complaining about Ben being given all these advantages or help and the same could be said for Chrissy. You can go back and rewatch the episode on CBS and stop when they show each person's letters if you want to.

[ProfCrash]

29 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Perhaps this season -- certainly true if the man was Ben -- but Brad won the last four ICs in Game Changers, and watched Sarah easily win the season.  Interesting this has happened two seasons in a row.  Says to me winning challenges isn't close to the most important thing in winning the votes of jurors, no matter what the gender

I had forgotten about Brad's run. Sarah had played a great strategic and social game. Brad has always been an asshole and that had not changed. Ben did not have the social game that Sarah had but he had the idols.

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, BarneySays said:

The view that somehow Chrissy was robbed of her right to the $1 mm by the twist seems based on a false sense of entitlement to the $1 mm that was wrongly taken from her. 

I think it's more that Chrissy was 'robbed' of a) being able to follow through on her plan that she would have been able to execute without this new twist and b) being able to adjust said plan because she knew how the endgame worked ahead of time. Devon is the one that was more 'robbed' of his chance to win because of this twist. Them's the breaks though, but it's annoying that they decided to fuck over the players at the very end like that. They've done it before though, so I don't know why I was initially surprised by it.

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Notice they never did the challenge where each player knocks out someone else's tiles, the one where everyone can gang up on one person to eliminate them from the challenge. Because they knew everyone would go after Ben, and they didn't want that.

They haven't done challenges like that in awhile. I think it's because they're pissed the WA cast didn't play it the way it's supposed to be played.

33 minutes ago, kikaha said:

Perhaps this season -- certainly true if the man was Ben -- but Brad won the last four ICs in Game Changers, and watched Sarah easily win the season.  Interesting this has happened two seasons in a row.  Says to me winning challenges isn't close to the most important thing in winning the votes of jurors, no matter what the gender.  

I agree with this, but I do believe that returnee seasons tend to have less sexist tendencies among the cast than newbie seasons, for some reason.

Can someone directly link me to the screenshot of Chrissy's 'S' in the final IC? The link in this thread just takes me to someone's twitter.

Edited December 22, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[BarneySays]

Quote

Being able to select is only on advantage compared to not being able to select.

But that’s comparing the shitty scenario TPTB put into place, with an even shittier scenario they hypothetically could have put into place. 

The proper comparison, imo, is between the shitty scenario TPTB put into place, and the traditional system of voting. 

Viewed in that light, I can’t see a single circumstance in which the winner of the Final 4 IC is benefitted by the new format  

 

Quote

Without that "advantage", she could have selected both people to sit beside her.

 

 

 

I think you're confusing two separate issues.  The twist was not to chrissy's advantage, to be sure, but that's a very different thing than arguing that she did not receive an advantage.  Under the rules of the twist, as winner, she most certainly received an advantage.  If Ben had won, she would have had the opportunity to fight to stay in instead of immediately being voted out (assuming Ben and at least one other would have voted her out otherwise).  That's how the twist was designed to work.

She could not have selected both people to sit next to her.  She could have voted for Ben to be out and hope that her alliance mates voted with her. 

[Rachel RSL]

Quote

You can see the difference in the S - my point being that usually in these competitions - everything has to be spot on and in the photo it clearly show the S is upside down as far as the font. People are complaining about Ben being given all these advantages or help and the same could be said for Chrissy. You can go back and rewatch the episode on CBS and stop when they show each person's letters if you want to.

Yes, I understand. My point is that S works both ways so unless they were specifically told that one way was correct and one way is incorrect, it works. No thanks, not interested in going back to rewatch any part of this dreadful season. I'm just saying, we can't know that she's the only one who put her S that way and if they were told that it had to go the other way.

Quote

She could not have selected both people to sit next to her.  She could have voted for Ben to be out and hope that her alliance mates voted with her. 

They would have. We all know that for a fact. Which means she would have chosen both people to sit next to.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Rachel RSL

[ljenkins782]

On 12/21/2017 at 10:14 AM, Rachel RSL said:

I remember people mentioning that early in the season and, while I can definitely see the resemblance, that's not who he reminds me of.  I just can't pinpoint who it is exactly. Luckily, I tend to forget most reality show contestants the second they're off my tv screen so at least it won't drive me crazy for too long.

I see a little bit of Jason Momoa in him, minus the super thick eyebrows.

[ProfCrash]

1 minute ago, tessat said:

You can see the difference in the S - my point being that usually in these competitions - everything has to be spot on and in the photo it clearly show the S is upside down as far as the font. 
People are complaining about Ben being given all these advantages or help and the same could be said for Chrissy. You can go back and rewatch the episode on CBS and stop when they show each person's letters if you want to.

I did not notice the S when I was watching the show. I did see a backwards E or two on Devon's puzzle. Probst said he looked at Ben's puzzle four times to confirm that it was an upside U before saying it was wrong.  I would guess that a misplaced S is harder to see then an upside down U. Heck, I just wrote S on post it and flipped it upside down and didn't notice enough of a difference to care.

[tessat]

On the Twitter account the still shots are over on the left hand side of the page - just click on them

[peachmangosteen]

I can't find the link and I don't care enough to look lol. Ben won, so who cares at this point.

[Rachel RSL]

5 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

I see a little bit of Jason Momoa in him, minus the super thick eyebrows.

I can see that. I actually see a little bit of everybody that people have mentioned in Devon. 

[ProfCrash]

7 hours ago, tessat said:

For all the conspiracy theorists - if this game was skewed to keep Ben in - why then did Chrissy win the challenge when her S was upside down in Heros? Yes it's a technicality but due to the font used - there is a definite  top of the S and a definite bottom. In all other challenges - the pieces used must be in the correct positions. This was a screen catch a fan got for all the theorists! Look at the photos to the right - click to enlarge!

 

https://twitter.com/taymarc_

Here you go Peach.  Looks to me like Chrissy had three S's. Ben had an N and not a U and Devon had backwards E. Too expect that people are going to be looking for the side of an S that is a bit heavier then another is ridiculous. Recognizing an upside down U or a reversed E is reasonable, they look totally different. Arguing that one S was a bit shorter on the end and hence upside down is beyond nitpicky. Clearly she didn't see it, or Probst or anyone else that was there. If there was  right side to the S then next time they can notch the side that is suppose to be down with a line, kind of like they do with 6 and 9 in games so you can tell which one is which.

[peachmangosteen]

2 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

I actually see a little bit of everybody that people have mentioned in Devon. 

Right! He's just like a smorgasbord of different people. I think that's why he looks so familiar to me, but I can't pinpoint exactly who he looks like.

[Paws]

Quote

think it's more that Chrissy was 'robbed' of a) being able to follow through on her plan that she would have been able to execute without this new twist and b) being able to adjust said plan because she knew how the endgame worked ahead of time. Devon is the one that was more 'robbed' of his chance to win because of this twist. Them's the breaks though, but it's annoying that they decided to fuck over the players at the very end like that. They've done it before though, so I don't know why I was initially surprised by it.

Chrissy, Devon, Ryan and even Ben were disenfranchised of their vote. The only “advantage” was that she knew they’d be disenfranchised. This is the whole basis of the game...that people get VOTED out.   Her advantage was the equivalent of “good news! your ship will sink but you get to choose your own lifevest” 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Paws

[peachmangosteen]

2 minutes ago, Paws said:

Chrissy, Devon, Ryan and even Ben were disenfranchised of their vote. The only “advantage” was that she knew they’d be disenfranchised. This is the whole basis of the game...that people get VOTED out. 

Yea, I feel like this particular twist is too much of a fundamental change to the game.

I do wonder if they'll keep it up after next season. I feel like they probably will. Ugh. 

[spritz]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 7:27 PM, Rachel RSL said:

Season's over and I still can't figure out who Devon looks like. It will remain a mystery for all time.

Devon has some resemblance to Adam Driver, the actor who played Kylo Ren from the Star Wars movies. 

 

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:21 AM, aurora296 said:

I was screaming in my living room for Devon to build that damn fire. Of course he was given some old flint or something. I just wasn't buying it that Devon was having a difficult time with his fire. As soon as Ben won, I was done! I shut my TV off and don't even care to check who actually won the game, because I can already guess. 

This is the first time EVER that I've shut off Survivor. I've never in my life missed an episode. 

Devon was robbed!! and I'd say Chrissy too. When it came down to it, the final 3 immunity didn't matter at all. Whomever won didn't get to decide who to vote off. 

Survivor has officially jumped the shark. Worst season ever. I think after all these years, I'm done. 

During the fire challenge, it did seem like Probst was giving Ben pointers, and encouragement, on how to enlarge his fire once Ben got his flame started. I didn't find it surprising that Probst might have been rooting for one over the other.

23 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

LOL at the bolded. I was impressed with Devon's willingness to take that challenge on without complaining about Ryan's free pass. I think it was probably a combination of knowing he was better at fire and realizing that Ryan was first choice to make FTC because he was easy to beat. 

 

Didn't Devon say that he wanted to be in that fire challenge, because if he had won, the victory would have been something he could add to his resume that he would use at the FTC to his advantage? He hadn't won any individual immunity challenges before that. 0 wins compared to Chrissy's 4. I think he wanted to finish that TC in a blaze of glory, and that would have been the last impression everyone would have had before the FTC. I don't think Devon was motivated by magnanimity in his willingness to take the challenge. 

 

Too bad Devon didn't make it to the FTC. I think it would have been a much more amusing FTC with Devon in it.

[Rachel RSL]

I suspect Devon was simply making lemonade out of lemons. He didn't want to be in that challenge, he wanted to vote out Ben and be guaranteed a spot in the F3, even if it meant not having a fire-making win on his resume. (Which damn previous Survivor first started using "resume" on this show? I hate that person.)

[MissEwa]

10 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

BA

LONEY

So I am late to the party because I actually literally forgot it was Wednesday yesterday, which says something about this season.  I think I know this board well enough to know that it's already too late for anyone to really see my post.  I am eager to read your guys' thoughts because I imagine that, like me, you think this ending was absolutely ridiculous, but unlike me, you all hate Chrissy with a passion so I wonder what people are landing on.  Ryan FTW?  I can't wait to find out!  But right now it's late, I've got Pilates in the morning, and I'm not getting through all the pages of posts tonight so I'm going to just say that I thought Devon voting for Ryan was surprising and adorable (I actually said "awwww" out loud), that of course Mike patted himself on the back that he would surely have won if he hadn't lost, that being able to fast forward through Jeff's wasting time with the studio audience mid-show is a blessing, and that I finally was not bored by Desi when she unexpectedly decided she would take the reins of the FTC for herself.  JP on the other hand did exactly as expected and said nothing.

If I were Chrissy, reading that "advantage" I would have recited exactly Devon's line from when he read the one Jessica used on him....absolute, unmitigated bullshit.  I thought they knew this terrible twist going in to the game, not that it was going to be a last-minute completely transparent producer contrivance to save their favored contestant...

I've been waiting for you to stop by @KimberStormer and I agree with eveything you say. As a Chrissy non-fan (all season long I kept nearly warming to her and then she'd say something that reminded me why I didn't like her - ending with #allmomsareheroes, which I, as a mother, found gag-worthy), I was on Team Devon, and without this ridiculous twist I think he had a good shot. He definitely would have made F3 and got more votes than Ryan, but I can't say for sure who would have won. But like a few others I would have been fine with a Ben win had it not come about like this. He's an ass, but they did basically hand it to him with their stupidity several times.