Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[WindofChange]

56 minutes ago, Starry said:

The point is that certain things aren't mentioned if they aren't plot-relevant.

Overall I think we can agree to disagree but I wanted to talk about this...

Not everything in every show is going to be plot-relevant. Character building moments aren't for plot yet they're just as important. Making off hand comments about work doesn't take a lot of effort. Not only that but bottle episodes aren't  plot-relevant either. So this is kind of a weak explanation especially considering it's not really that hard for Iris to mention her job or something about writing, meeting her work colleagues (even though we don't see them on screen), anything really.

Curtis can whine about his husband and not having a job, Dinah can go apartment hunting, Felicity/Oliver can play video games with William.... So why can't Iris mention her job once in a while? 

1 hour ago, Starry said:

I too want more for Iris but this is The Flash. It's Barry's story

Also, this... It is Barry's story, but Barry's story is just as strong as the supporting cast and nothing makes a strong supporting cast than delving deep into their characters as well. 

Oliver's story wouldn't have worked if we didn't know more about Felicity/Diggle, if they didn't have their own ambitions and lives... OTA are different people, that's where a lot of their inner conflicts come from. They're not just 'Yes People'... That's why it's important to build those characters. Building them up helped Oliver grow too.

[Starry]

I never said that it was great writing...For The Flash, if something isn't plot-relevant or cause for silly humorous moments that are not even funny, it doesn't matter. 

I am still watching for the Westallen moments only. Not ashamed to admit that.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Starry

[Trini]

9 hours ago, WindofChange said:

Uh Diggle and Felicity have lives outside of Oliver, their entire lives aren't entirely about Oliver. 

In season 3 both Diggle and Felicity realized that helping the city was not just Oliver's mission, it was theirs because they also believed in the cause. They'd be helping people with or without Oliver. Also, Diggle and Felicity don't think they're the Arrow unlike Iris who thinks she is also the flash. They both have their own identities as heroes. 

Not only that but Diggle and Felicity  have lives outside of Oliver. Diggle has his own family and Felicity has her own job and over the years have had friends who aren't really Oliver's friends (Alena, Curtis in S4, Ray in S3, Caitlin/Cisco in S2). We also saw that while she loved being with Oliver in S4, she didn't feel fulfilled just with being with him and doing nothing else with her life, which means Felicity doesn't only want Oliver in her life to be truly happy and fulfilled. 

Diggle nor Felicity get their strength from Oliver, they aren't motivated because of him, and while they do spend a lot of time with Oliver and would die for him, they have lives outside of Oliver and Team Arrow. 

So the situations aren't comparable at all. 

8 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Yeah the comparison between Iris and Felicity/Diggle makes really no sense to me..they aren’t doing what I’d like them to do with Felicity this year but still she decided to start her own company and when Oliver quit the team she was still Overwatch because Oliver or not Oliver that is her mission. So much that between them it was Oliver that wanted to give up being a vigilante in season 3-4 and Felicity still helped the team. Exactly because her life doesn’t revolve around Oliver.

Even more with Diggle that has his own family and like Felicity has cared about the mission despite what Oliver chose to do during the years.

Oh, if we're looking at all seasons, then Iris definitely has a life outside of Barry - yes, even in Season 4. The Flash does struggle with doing much of anything with the characters outside of STAR Labs, though. The rest of the characters not part of Barry's family are in a similar boat.

But Diggle and Felicity are Oliver's supporting characters, and their lives do revolve around him. Especially with Diggle.

7 hours ago, quarks said:

For me at least, it's a script thing. Diggle and Felicity call themselves members of Team Arrow, and are recognized as part of a team.

Iris, on the other hand, doesn't describe herself as part of a team. Cisco, Julian and now Ralph have all described themselves as members of Team Flash. Iris, on the other hand, says, "We're the Flash." That is, she doesn't describe herself as a part of a team, but as part of Barry. ...

"We're the Flash" describes the team of Barry & Iris. Barry also repeatedly stated "We're the Flash". He views himself as part of their married unit too; that doesn't mean he has lost his identity. Plus, people (not here mostly) really want to harp on that line, but the concept was already voiced in Season 3, and demonstrated in the seasons before that with Barry & Iris' special connection to each other.

Iris is obviously part of Team Flash (and has been since way before this season) even if she has not said that specific line. Everyone acknowledges her as such.

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Plus, when Team Arrow and Team Legends contact Team Flash for help, they generally reach out to Barry and Cisco, and occasionally Harry or Caitllin - but so far, never Iris. ...

Guggenheim has always ignored Iris/Candice. I don't think The Flash can do anything about that.
 

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

For me, my issue with Iris is that she isn't doing what she is passionate about except in the context of loving Barry.  What she personally is passionate about and brought her fulfillment, her career in journalism, has been set aside in order to support everything Barry.  She tried to take up the position of team leader because that is what she thought Barry would have wanted but even that was an illusion since, in the season opener, we saw the rest of the team were just letting her think she was in charge but actually cut her out of the real decision making.  She's not in charge because she rose to the position or was so great at it, but because there was nothing else for her to do to help.  She's leader until they disagree and then do their own thing.  

Barry doesn't even discuss or ask her opinion when he's around.     

It just feels that Iris sublimated all of her own plans and wants to what Barry wants and that she's only a token member of his team, there because she's the girlfriend/fiance/wife, not because the team needs her.  And that's an awful thing to have done to Iris who does come with a slew of talents and abilities, but the stuff that was uniquely hers, that stuff has been discarded except for what is there to support Barry. 

I think all of this is untrue. Especially when one incident to describe the entire team dynamics for the season. Plus, the follow-up to that showed that the team was wrong and should have listened to Iris. The Team definitely needs her decision making skills (for example).

And Barry has discussed things with her. It's when he doesn't that something usually goes wrong.

But I agree with you that they shouldn't have cut her journalism career. It's another downside to centralizing things at STAR Labs. We barely get to see Barry and Joe's jobs at CCPD either.

[WindofChange]

3 minutes ago, Starry said:

I never said that it was great writing...For The Flash, if something isn't plot-relevant or cause for silly humorous moments that are not even funny, it doesn't matter.

Arrow is pretty much on the same boat writing wise... I think in the end it's more about not caring about iris as a character more than anything else. 

4 minutes ago, Starry said:

I am honestly still watching for Westallen and I am not ashamed to ad

Not saying you should be ashamed of it. We're just discussing the issues with the show and how iris is treated is a huge issue

[JamieLynn832002]

I wouldn't mind the lack of non-Barry story for Iris so much if it weren't for the several episodes dedicated to Ralph's story. I don't even hate Ralph but so much focus on him when they can't bothered to really develop stories for long time characters is annoying. 

[Trini]

9 hours ago, WindofChange said:

It's not that hard to have Iris say that she is working on an article, or meeting with a few friends once in a while, it takes the least amount of effort so it's difficult to say that she has a life outside of Barry because the show has never alluded to it. Also the fact that Candice Patton said that all Iris needs in her life is Barry is pretty indicative that she has nothing else going on in her life, nor does she need anything to be going on in her life... which again is kind of pathetic and can be easily rectified with a few changes in dialogue.

No it's not. It's a figure of of speech. However, I agree they could show/tell more.

 

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I honestly don't think I can buy that Iris believes in the cause. If Iris believed that her blog was genuinely helping, why did she stop? It's not like she doesn't have time.

The only time we saw Iris talk about why she's now a member of Team Flash is because she thought that's what Barry would've wanted in 401, that she kept running because of him. She never voiced this season that she wants to help people by helping Team Flash, that she wants to do something with her life, that being a part of the team gives her life meaning. So it's hard to really believe she believes in the cause when she never voiced it.

The show hasn't expressly said she stopped the blog; but she was then hired by CCPN, so she was writing for a bigger audience anyway. Well, she is there and she is helping. I think they should have more of her voice on the show, but just because there isn't a line doesn't mean it isn't true.

(the bolded:) That wasn't the only reason; I don't see being inspired by someone you love as a bad thing. (Thinking about it, it happens a lot on the Berlanti shows.)
 

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No doubt Iris is smart and level-headed. This role is just not believable for her because there was no build up to her taking on that role.

Well, all that happened offscreen in the space between seasons, supposedly. I myself would have loved a flashback episode showing what happened between Barry leaving and returning. However, they've shown her leading in STAR Labs before, and they showed last season that she is the one who can keep everyone together and working, and as the voice of reason, so it's not completely unreasonable.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Trini

[Trini]

39 minutes ago, Starry said:

I never said that it was great writing...For The Flash, if something isn't plot-relevant or cause for silly humorous moments that are not even funny, it doesn't matter. 

I am still watching for the Westallen moments only. Not ashamed to admit that.

I think everyone wishes the writing were better! I've got my own ideas about how it could be really great with some tweaks. There's still enough good stuff going on that I'm still invested. This middle part of the season is kind of a slog, though.

[WindofChange]

In the end the writers could've put some effort into Iris' character... I don't wish for the writing to be better I just wish for the writers to care more about Iris but it's obvious Iris' character outside of Barry  means very little to them. That's why they can't even bother with giving her tiny lines that indicates her life outside of Barry, why she can't have a storyline of her own, why she can't have ambition for a career she was once passionate about. And what a shame that is because it clearly reflects in what we see on screen. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

How is Comic Iris? Does she have a career and skills or is she mainly a love interest as well?

I haven't read comics in quite some time, and all my knowledge is from the wonderful straight to home dvds, and Young Justice, but yes, she has a career: She's a reporter. There was even a period piece, set shortly after the Korean War, JL: The New Frontier that came out 10 years ago. Iris and Barry were engaged, he thought she didn't know who he was; but she wasn't stuck at his side, all rah-rah! But a reporter in her own right. Just as Lois was. I sometimes cringe when I watch because of the way GA looks--just ODD without that goatee (as @BkWurm1 can attest), and Diana, who is an amazon, is taller than Supes. It's a one off, but a really good movie, with a great cast.

[BunsenBurner]

I have come to a conclusion about the Flash. It is a show written for 6 year olds, acted by late 20s+ who play teenagers. My opinion.

For comic people to say there shouldn’t be love on the shows everyone seems to be in love with someone. There is little chemistry between any of them. 

It is a boring boring show. 

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

I have come to a conclusion about the Flash. It is a show written for 6 year olds, acted by late 20s+ who play teenagers. My opinion.

For comic people to say there shouldn’t be love on the shows everyone seems to be in love with someone. There is little chemistry between any of them. 

It is a boring boring show. 

Lol bless you for cracking me up after a very harrowing adventure with gelatine today! 

***

I don't mind it! It's no AoS but it makes good background TV when one is trying to fulfil one's step quota. Plus hubby side eyes me less than when I have MKR on! 

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

That’s not on Iris the character. It’s on the writers

Hi and welcome!

Since you're new, a quick note that others on this board are aware of - I'm an active WGAw member. So comments like this tend to aggravate me.

1. Iris the character is a creation of the writers, who created the character, her dialogue and the plot.  

2. With that said, at least one of the issues with Iris is not on the writers or Candice Patton. That is: the decision to restrict 50% of filming in any one given episode to Flash's four main standing sets: the three Star Labs sets and Joe West's house, with an additional 25% of filming typically also restricted to one of the other standing sets (Jitters, although that's frequently repurposed for the other three shows; the Central City set/Barry's crime lab; Barry and Iris' loft; and this season, Ralph's apartment/office, which is using the walls/furniture from an old Arrow set.) That's not even on the CW.   That's a production decision made by Berlanti and the WB, one all the more noticeable this season since, in a major change from last season, both Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow are doing more location shots and working with additional sets.  That production decision in turn has severely affected what Iris can and cannot do - specifically, kept the writers from allowing her to leave Star Labs, Joe's home and her own apartment. 

3. Combined, that means that the statement, "That's not on Iris the character. It's on the writers," manages to BOTH fail to give credit to the writers for creating/writing the character AND blames them for decisions that they couldn't control.

I have no problems with critiquing the writers for the frequently clunky dialogue on all four shows, or for creating huge plot holes, or for failing to do the minimum research on Native American issues, which would have let them know that the people actually breaking the law in "When Harry Met Harry" were the museum directors, for instance. Those were decisions under their control. But I do have huge issues with blaming the writers for things not under their control (Flash's production budget) while simultaneously failing to credit the writers for what they have done - creating Iris West-Allen.

So now that that's off my chest...

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Iris worked as a reporter at CCPN as late as s3. No mention has been made about her quitting or being fired so I assume she still works there. 

I don't think we can assume that. For one, her job has never been mentioned this season. To add to this, we've generally seen her at Star Labs during both daylight and night hours, and she's there more frequently than Joe or Cecile - both of whom are still shown doing their regular jobs, along with Barry and, if we're counting him as a police consultant, Cicso. That's also true on the other shows - we've seen Oliver, Dinah, Rene (until he was fired), and Kara at their mundane jobs on a regular basis, and we've heard Felicity and Curtis discussing their mundane jobs. Plus, Candice Patton has stated in interviews that we're not going to be seeing Iris as a journalist any time soon - suggesting that Iris isn't working at CCPN right now.

I'm still hoping they'll go back to that storyline eventually - I think that Iris would be very effective as an investigator/interrogator, and I'd love to see more of that, assuming the production budget can be increased.  

 

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Even someone like Ralph, who’s getting plenty of screen time, has no role as a PI agent rather as the newest superhero. 

Ralph was shown using his PI skills in the episode right before the crossovers, and was shown conducting surveillance on Mrs. Evil during Barry's trial. 

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I don't buy that Felicity and Caitlin are friends when we've seen them talk two times.

 

More than twice (they started interacting on screen prior to Flash, as it happens - well back in Arrow season two) and Felicity has occasionally mentioned her on Arrow.  To the point where back in Arrow season three, fans were complaining that Felicity was better friends with Caitlin than with Laurel and Thea. I think we can easily argue that Felicity is better friends with Caitlin - and Iris - than she's ever been with Dinah, even before Dinah left Team Arrow for Team Not Arrow.

1 hour ago, Trini said:

Barry also repeatedly stated "We're the Flash".

Which doesn't help.

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Guggenheim has always ignored Iris/Candice. I don't think The Flash can do anything about that.

1) Guggenheim does not have sole responsibility for Arrow.  

2) The Flash writers and producers work on the same exact floor as the Arrow writers and have regular meetings. Until November, one of the main Flash writers/showrunners was also still reviewing/commenting on Arrow scripts and visiting the Arrow sets. 

So yeah, I think Flash could do something about that. They just haven't, for whatever reason. 

On the other side, Arrow hasn't really bothered to get Flash to mention Dinah or Thea. 

[Sakura12]

I don't really take what the actors say as their own thoughts, they are never going to say they hate the storyline they are in. They are always going to go by what the producers tell them to say or whatever the current storyline is for their character. Candice just seems to repeat whatever Iris says to Barry as her answers for what's going on with her character. 

I wish Iris had better storylines, I kept watching the Flash for her. I finally gave up when Ralph came in and automatically got more story and development then she has. 

[Wishing Well]

My ideal plot would have been for Iris to have been either a cop or DA, who heads the task force to find him/bring him in.  Joe/Barry can’t tell her the secret because of her JOB, not because she’s a 5 year old who needs protection.  Over the first season, she develops a fascination for The Flash while dating Eddie, while still being a part of the anti-Flash force.  Same thing happens to the end of the season where Eddie kills himself.

S2 would be Iris refusing to associate herself with the Flash bc of what happened to Eddie.  Not out of spite but of the memories associated.  It’s still ridiculous to me that Caitlin and Iris both lost their partners to senseless deaths caused by Barry, ahem, but we got to see HIM mope.  Then we have the story with her mother and Wally, which gives her a fresh perspective on Team Flash and superhero-ing.  During this time, Iris leaves the police force and becomes an advisory or something to CCPN.  

Season 3 is still about Savitar wanting to kill her, but through her investigation skills from her time at the police station/news she is able to deduce who Savitar is.  She and Barry actually do more than run around like headless chickens, and IRIS gets to have a conversation with Savitar.  Kidnap her if you need to, but have her actually talk with him and discover what is going on. 

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I finally gave up when Ralph came in and automatically got more story and development then she has. 

Imagine if they just took out every awful thing he's said and replaced any of those lines with updates about Iris' life outside of the team/Barry or just once stated that Iris was still a reporter* or, since they seemed to want to make Iris and Caitlin actual friends and not just coworkers, a mention of the two of them hanging out instead of forgetting about that once the (first attempt at a) wedding was over. 

*They could even have made up some position at CCPN that had her working with STAR Labs or CCPD to explain why she's at STAR Labs during the day (or have her pop up at CCPD) and to explain why they don't show her at CCPN. If they even cared a little bit about Iris' career, I'm sure they could have thought of something. 

[statsgirl]

If nothing else, all the time spent on Ralph when iris needs it so badly as a character in her own right tells me everything about how little the show values her as an individual rather than an extension of Barry.  And then there's the way Joe treats her, as if she's the stepchild and Barry is his real son.

22 minutes ago, Wishing Well said:

My ideal plot would have been for Iris to have been either a cop or DA, who heads the task force to find him/bring him in.  Joe/Barry can’t tell her the secret because of her JOB, not because she’s a 5 year old who needs protection.  Over the first season, she develops a fascination for The Flash while dating Eddie, while still being a part of the anti-Flash force.  Same thing happens to the end of the season where Eddie kills himself.

My ideal would be to go with their original casting sides and make Iris a psychology grad student.  She'd have a skill that the Team could use when dealing with metas and help in handling handle them, and she'd have the organizational skills to run Team Flash and manage Barry, Cisco and the various iterations of Wells.

I don't like the idea of Iris developing a fascination with The Flash while she's happily dating and living with Eddie, it's too bad romance fiction.  A curiosity as to what motivates him perhaps.

The irony with the way Eddie died is that he became the forward-thinking hero that everyone keeps saying Barry is, but that he rarely shows.

[Featherhat]

3 hours ago, JamieLynn832002 said:

I wouldn't mind the lack of non-Barry story for Iris so much if it weren't for the several episodes dedicated to Ralph's story. I don't even hate Ralph but so much focus on him when they can't bothered to really develop stories for long time characters is annoying. 

Yeah. That's one of the most frustrating things about Flash this season. They have nothing for Wally to do so they ship him off to LOT, still have Caitlin's Killer Frost arc as a total muddled mess, having trouble writing for Iris etc and yet new guy Ralph has plenty of screentime, an arc that apparently necessitated being a complete douche for many episodes, shown in loving detail, whilst the women are barely allowed to react to that and has already become basically the 2nd most important part of the show (currently). 

I like Iris a lot (or should I say CP) but I've been frustrated that so much of her increased screentime has been about the wedding (yes I know it's an important day or anyone and they had to set up the crossover etc) but the episodes where she's had the most focus are ones like "Luck Be a Lady" where 90% of her story is doing crazy things like "comically" ruining the end of that guy's funeral etc. I would say the crossover itself had some good scenes and some nice Iris/Felicity friendship moments but all of that has unfortunately gotten lost in the wedding controversy and it was a shame the writers crapped all over that friendship for a whining "joke". 

Iris as wrangler for Team Flash is fine in theory, and something that even now could untilise her psychology background and journalism in collating information a story, but she doesn't end up having authority on the team unlike say Sara who's unequivocally the Captain and everyone listens. I think everyone in STAR Labs likes/loves her but they don't necessarily respect her place there as anything other than Barry's now wife. And that's basically how I see the writers as well. They like the character and like the WestAllen relationship a lot but they're not actually that interested in exploring her as much beyond "Barry's True Love" and even then, they love WA as "the perfect couple" and "gold standard" but do the bare minimum to actually show that and prefer to just have character's talk about it. See: previously discussed quick peck on lips when reuniting after prison with their Dad's hands still wrapped around Barry, they'd rather write for Barry and Joe together. 

That's why I'm not eager for her to be pregnant any time soon. We all know it's coming at some point but once it does she'll be forever in the Mommy storylines. With time travel they can/probably already have bring in their kids and grandkids without sticking her with babies on the sidelines for the rest of the show's run, except for the inevitable kidnapping storylines. That said, I'm interested in a couple of upcoming episodes for her, but I have a sneaking suspicion they're going to end up more about Barry's feelings ala the Savitar arc where she got only a few scenes of her own POV on her possible/forseen death.

I also really want them to sort out Killer Frost's arc and decide once and for all how to integrate her or not with Caitlin ie they've waffled about how much both personalities remember or how much they can control it, and used it as "funny filler" for her friends to make jokes at her expense. I'm not holding my breathe about it though. Will anyone know or care when Wally officially joins Team Legends or will they be in for a surprise next crossover? 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, quarks said:

1) Guggenheim does not have sole responsibility for Arrow.  

2) The Flash writers and producers work on the same exact floor as the Arrow writers and have regular meetings. Until November, one of the main Flash writers/showrunners was also still reviewing/commenting on Arrow scripts and visiting the Arrow sets. 

So yeah, I think Flash could do something about that. They just haven't, for whatever reason. 

Is he the showrunner or not? But you can replace his name with "the Arrow writers room" if that is more accurate.

Can the writers/producers of one show force the writers/producers of another show to include a character when they're not interested, just because they meet sometimes? Unless it's in the fall crossovers, Iris has been ignored.
 

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't really take what the actors say as their own thoughts, they are never going to say they hate the storyline they are in. They are always going to go by what the producers tell them to say or whatever the current storyline is for their character. Candice just seems to repeat whatever Iris says to Barry as her answers for what's going on with her character. 

I wish Iris had better storylines, I kept watching the Flash for her. I finally gave up when Ralph came in and automatically got more story and development then she has. 

Not all actors, all the time, though. Grant Gustin has been vocal about being dissatisfied with storylines and/or writing decisions at times. Candice is a double minority, however, so anything she says (especially if it's negative) will be judged more harshly or have harsher repercussions.

I don't think Ralph has gotten more than Iris, but he definitely has an undeserved amount of screentime. sigh

[BkWurm1]

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“We are the Flash” is not about Iris becoming Barry or taking over his identity because she has none of her own. It’s about communicating, sharing his burdens and becoming a unit. I don’t see how Barry and Iris being strong together and each other’s rock is a bad thing.

I don't think it's a bad thing except for that it seems to be Iris's ONLY thing at this point.  And I want more for her.  

8 hours ago, Trini said:

 

I think all of this is untrue. Especially when one incident to describe the entire team dynamics for the season. Plus, the follow-up to that showed that the team was wrong and should have listened to Iris. The Team definitely needs her decision making skills (for example).

And Barry has discussed things with her. It's when he doesn't that something usually goes wrong.

But I agree with you that they shouldn't have cut her journalism career. It's another downside to centralizing things at STAR Labs. We barely get to see Barry and Joe's jobs at CCPD either.

1

I didn't find Iris to be Team Leader in name only to be a one-time incident.  I've seen it happen in big and little moments all season long.  It's even more noticeable when Barry gets back. She even brings him to therapy in part about it but it didn't change how he does things or makes choices.  The majority of the time, Barry informs Iris of his choice after the fact, often even after he's made important life-altering choices that he's told other people about, like with his trial stuff.  And apart from Barry, even one of the most recent ones had Harry super frustrated by the choices and actions and direction the team was making and all it did was remind me that Harry is a more natural fit and has more experience in the position.  

Iris has not really made the position her own.  They could never have her lead another mission and I don't think it would cause a ripple in the show's dynamic and that's a problem IMO.  

I also don't think the big take away from the first episode was the team should have listened to Iris and left Barry in the Speed Zone.  She was being irrational about not trying to save him.  Her reasons weren't to protect the city or stop bad stuff from happening via the Thinker, she was just too upset to get her hopes up.  (And then Joe tell her to have faith and she does about the dumbest thing I've ever seen on any of the Arrowverse shows and just because she got lucky and it worked doesn't mean it wasn't still the worst idea, lol) But even if I agreed that the take was the team should have listened to her, they didn't listen to her and didn't regret not listening to her which all contributes to making her position feel like shoehorning her in. 

Sadly, I still think this is the best she's been written since season one, lol.  

[Starry]

On 22/2/2018 at 4:17 AM, quarks said:

Hi and welcome!

Since you're new, a quick note that others on this board are aware of - I'm an active WGAw member. So comments like this tend to aggravate me.

Hi! Thanks for the info :)

On 22/2/2018 at 4:17 AM, quarks said:

1. Iris the character is a creation of the writers, who created the character, her dialogue and the plot.  

2. With that said, at least one of the issues with Iris is not on the writers or Candice Patton. That is: the decision to restrict 50% of filming in any one given episode to Flash's four main standing sets: the three Star Labs sets and Joe West's house, with an additional 25% of filming typically also restricted to one of the other standing sets (Jitters, although that's frequently repurposed for the other three shows; the Central City set/Barry's crime lab; Barry and Iris' loft; and this season, Ralph's apartment/office, which is using the walls/furniture from an old Arrow set.) That's not even on the CW.   That's a production decision made by Berlanti and the WB, one all the more noticeable this season since, in a major change from last season, both Arrow and Legends of Tomorrow are doing more location shots and working with additional sets.  That production decision in turn has severely affected what Iris can and cannot do - specifically, kept the writers from allowing her to leave Star Labs, Joe's home and her own apartment. 

3. Combined, that means that the statement, "That's not on Iris the character. It's on the writers," manages to BOTH fail to give credit to the writers for creating/writing the character AND blames them for decisions that they couldn't control.

Okay, replace "writers" with "Berlanti and the WB" and whoever is responsible for the limited sets. Can I ask you if the showrunners can discuss with Berlanti and the WB which sets their limited budget allows them to keep? Can they decide to keep Iris' office at CCPN and get rid of one of the STAR Labs room instead? I am not sure how this works so sorry if it seems like a silly question.

I actually think the loft set is also gone.

My point is that I can agree with people stating that the writers/showrunners see Iris as Barry's love interest and nothing more, that they have no clue how to incorporate her job into the plot, that they don't want to spend screen time in what she does outside of Barry and Team Flash...Or that they can't do that because of sets issues. But I don't agree with statements like "Iris quit her job because of Barry and that makes her a sad and pathetic woman". If Iris were a real person she'd be sad and pathetic because she allowed her love for Barry and her loyalty to Team Flash to quit her job and be defined by her husband and his superhero team. I don't agree with that because I don't buy the premise that Iris has no job when the script hasn't mentioned it. Candice headcanoned that Iris is still a reporter at CCPN precisely because they've left it unclear.

We can agree to disagree on this. If they take this a step further and instead of leaving it unclear they give credence to the theories that she quit I will eat back my words. This is a sensitive topic for me because the "Iris has no job", "She never goes to work and spends too much time at STAR Labs" complaints were present in fandom discussions in s3 as well. Those statements were obvious attempts at bashing the character and the romance, especially as a way to prop up other female characters and ships.

On 22/2/2018 at 4:17 AM, quarks said:

I don't think we can assume that. For one, her job has never been mentioned this season. To add to this, we've generally seen her at Star Labs during both daylight and night hours, and she's there more frequently than Joe or Cecile - both of whom are still shown doing their regular jobs, along with Barry and, if we're counting him as a police consultant, Cicso. That's also true on the other shows - we've seen Oliver, Dinah, Rene (until he was fired), and Kara at their mundane jobs on a regular basis, and we've heard Felicity and Curtis discussing their mundane jobs. Plus, Candice Patton has stated in interviews that we're not going to be seeing Iris as a journalist any time soon - suggesting that Iris isn't working at CCPN right now.

I'm still hoping they'll go back to that storyline eventually - I think that Iris would be very effective as an investigator/interrogator, and I'd love to see more of that, assuming the production budget can be increased. 

I don't pay attention to what time of the day she's at STAR Labs because the writing is full of plot holes when it comes to this. Joe and Cecile's jobs are still a part of the narrative in a way Iris isn't. They also work at CCPD like the main character.

I disagree that what Candice said suggests that Iris isn't working at CCPN. She just won't be seen doing her job on screen any time soon.

On 22/2/2018 at 4:17 AM, quarks said:

Ralph was shown using his PI skills in the episode right before the crossovers, and was shown conducting surveillance on Mrs. Evil during Barry's trial.

Not enough. Ralph is a character who has been granted more development and stories than Iris (and the other members of Team Flash) and even with all that he's still defined by his role at STAR Labs as the team newest meta. I don't expect anything for Iris when their new golden boy's regular job is treated like this.

On 22/2/2018 at 4:17 AM, quarks said:

More than twice (they started interacting on screen prior to Flash, as it happens - well back in Arrow season two) and Felicity has occasionally mentioned her on Arrow.  To the point where back in Arrow season three, fans were complaining that Felicity was better friends with Caitlin than with Laurel and Thea. I think we can easily argue that Felicity is better friends with Caitlin - and Iris - than she's ever been with Dinah, even before Dinah left Team Arrow for Team Not Arrow.

I don't watch Arrow. I don't know how many times Felicity has mentioned Caitlin on that show. Did she mention her in the context of hanging out with her? Of bonding with her? Because Caitlin hasn't. When Caitlin got her powers Felicity didn't know anything about it. How close can they be? Consulting each other over science matters does not a friendship make imo.

I take your point about Felicity being better friends with Caitlin and Iris than with the Arrow women. That was not my original argument though. My point was that neither Iris nor Caitlin have female friends they could invite to their bachelorette parties unless those are Barry's friends first.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Starry

[insomniadreams88]

7 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Will anyone know or care when Wally officially joins Team Legends or will they be in for a surprise next crossover? 

I'm waiting for one of the two teams to contact the other and for Wally to be in the background on the Waverider during a video chat and for someone from The Flash - even better if it's Joe or Iris - to go, "Wally? Huh? When did you get there? We thought you were in X." "No, that was 6 months ago. I called you guys but no one bothered to answer." 

[tv echo]

15 Arrowverse Plot Holes That Are Too Big To Ignore
By Nat Brehmer  01.19.2018
https://screenrant.com/arrowverse-plot-holes-mistakes-cant-ignore/

15. EVERYONE LECTURES BARRY ON TIME TRAVEL WHEN THE LEGENDS DO IT EVERY WEEK
14. SUPERGIRL TELLS JAMES ONLY SUPERPOWERED PEOPLE CAN BE HEROES
13. OLIVER SHOULDN’T HAVE SURVIVED HIS FALL
12. TIME WRAITHS
11. THE YAMASHIRO FAMILY SHOULD HAVE BEEN WIPED OUT
10. BARRY’S INCONSISTENT POWERS
9. WALLY SHOULD HAVE LOST HIS POWERS WHEN SAVITAR WAS ERASED FROM EXISTENCE
8. WHY DIDN’T THEA DISCOVER THE ARROW CAVE UNDER HER OWN CLUB?
7. OLIVER’S PAST WITH AMANDA WALLER
6. THE SUN SHOULD WEAKEN BIZARRO
5. WHY DIDN’T ZOOM STEAL JAY GARRICK’S SPEED?
4. WHY WOULDN’T RIP HUNTER KILL VANDAL SAVAGE AS A BABY?
3. WHY WERE THERE METAHUMANS IN FLASHPOINT?
2. THAWNE’S DEATH
1. MARTIAN MANHUNTER’S CONSTANTLY FLUCTUATING POWER LEVEL

[Sakura12]

55 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

I'm waiting for one of the two teams to contact the other and for Wally to be in the background on the Waverider during a video chat and for someone from The Flash - even better if it's Joe or Iris - to go, "Wally? Huh? When did you get there? We thought you were in X." "No, that was 6 months ago. I called you guys but no one bothered to answer." 

I would love if LoT made a joke about that in Wally's first episode, he disappears and the team immediately wonders where he went and go looking for him, when they find him Nate will be "Dude, you can't just run of like that". Wally "You mean you noticed?" Sara: "Of course, you're on our team we'll notice when you are not there (glares at Nate and Amaya).  

[quarks]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

Is he the showrunner or not? But you can replace his name with "the Arrow writers room" if that is more accurate.

Can the writers/producers of one show force the writers/producers of another show to include a character when they're not interested, just because they meet sometimes? Unless it's in the fall crossovers, Iris has been ignored.
 

Guggenheim is one of four major showrunners on Arrow. He and Wendy Mericle report first to the other two showrunners (several reports from the Kriesberg situation and other sources confirm that, although we rarely hear from her, Sarah Schechter is their direct boss, with Berlanti right above her). Berlanti and Schechter in turn report to WB, all scripts/characters have to be passed through DC and Diane Nelson, and everyone has to sell the show to the CW and the affiliates. As he keeps repeating, "that's above [his] paygrade." He does not have full or final control over the show.  

In terms of Flash, not only can the writers/producers of Flash force Arrow to include a character when they aren't interested, we know they have - they've discussed being asked to include mentions of Central City and specific characters in their scripts.  The choice to include Captain Singh last season, for instance, wasn't theirs - Berlanti told the four shows to include mini-crossovers of other characters, and Flash suggested that Arrow use Captain Singh. Marc Guggenheim has also discussed getting told to add a scene for Carlos Valdes at the last minute during season three of Arrow (notably, all four Arrowverse shows later completely ignored the implications of that scene). It has happened.

I don't disagree that Iris has been ignored over on the other three shows. I just strongly disagree that the Flash writers/showrunners can't do anything about that.

3 hours ago, Starry said:

Okay, replace "writers" with "Berlanti and the WB" and whoever is responsible for the limited sets. Can I ask you if the showrunners can discuss with Berlanti and the WB which sets their limited budget allows them to keep? Can they decide to keep Iris' office at CCPN and get rid of one of the STAR Labs room instead? I am not sure how this works so sorry if it seems like a silly question.

I actually think the loft set is also gone.

Sure, it can be discussed - in fact, it probably was discussed as part of the overall June planning/blocking. And yes, Flash could have kept Iris' office and gotten rid of one of the other sets instead. They didn't. I suspect, frankly, that this had less to do with plot/character stuff on Flash, and more to do with the fact that the sets for Jitters, Cisco's lab and Barry's CSI lab could be more easily repurposed/set for the other three shows than the CCPN set could. However, what the writers couldn't control/discuss was the lack of a budget for another soundstage (especially since they had to replace one of Arrow's soundstages this season) and the lack of a budget for location shots - two things which have effectively constrained Iris and kept her at Star Labs. Or, for that matter, the rising costs of shooting in Vancouver. 

By loft set, I meant Barry and Iris' apartment. It's definitely not gone.  Nor is the loft set over on Arrow, which has made occasional appearances over on Flash. 

Quote

Not enough. Ralph is a character who has been granted more development and stories than Iris (and the other members of Team Flash) and even with all that he's still defined by his role at STAR Labs as the team newest meta. I don't expect anything for Iris when their new golden boy's regular job is treated like this.

Sure, he's the team's newest meta. But he's also been defined as a former/current detective, with that role frequently getting mentioned/used on the show. We just saw him meet up with an old contact and argue that he's now going straight, and we've frequently seen him in his office this season. It's the same way where Kara is the team's major superhero, but she's also defined as a reporter. Supergirl certainly doesn't do much with that (and I think we can all make a very good argument for dropping that plotline completely), but it's there. Or the way Oliver is mostly defined by his role as the leader of Team Arrow, and Dinah as the leader of Team Not Arrow, but they're also defined as the mayor of Star City and as a police detective. Or, back on Flash, the way Barry is mostly defined as a superhero/metahuman, but also defined as a CSI. 

Unfortunately, I'm with you on having no expectations for Iris whatsoever at this point. But you know what? I think we should. As you have pointed out, she's one of the most important people in Barry's life, so why shouldn't she get more focus than Ralph? Admittedly, I'm saying this partly because I hate Ralph, but also because I'm tired of watching Flash waste Candice Patton. She's shown that she has remarkable acting chops and pretty decent comic timing. Use that, Flash!

[Featherhat]

6 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't watch Arrow. I don't know how many times Felicity has mentioned Caitlin on that show. Did she mention her in the context of hanging out with her? Of bonding with her? Because Caitlin hasn't. When Caitlin got her powers Felicity didn't know anything about it. How close can they be? Consulting each other over science matters does not a friendship make imo.

 I don't think anyone is claiming they're particularly close, although I do think they could basically have counted as closer than Caitlin/Iris before "Girls Night Out" and Insta MOH, especially as they *are* on different shows whereas Iris and Caitlin are on the same show and we barely had any idea of how they feel about each other until recently. I feel the same way about Dinah and Felicity, they certainly don't have to like each other or be close, but I want to know how they feel about each other as members of the team, and sigh, Felicty and Thea can also be counted on one hand, although we do know Thea was supportive of their relationship. 

However Felicity also has more of a POV in the narrative, she's allowed to disagree with Oliver and the rest of the team (and frequently gets beaten for it online but.....) she's had some of her own storylines in the last couple of seasons, including partly Havenrock, Helix, her company and now friend Alena. It's not been great but it is something and almost everyone respects her as part of the team. Her parents were also a lot about her and not really Oliver, even if I think TA in particular was wasted and should have done more. Barry and Iris sharing a Dad and that Dad being All About Barry (because he's the lead) has hampered in that direction. Dig who has his own wife/sister in law, nephew, kid, brother and soldier storylines, has his own supporting cast. Laurel had her own sets and characters in S1, her own storyline in S2 and basically stood around waiting to die in S4 only when they'd decided to kill her off (ironically what many of her fans call her best season). A lot of these to connect with the main storylines but that also shows that you can't just lift a character out of the storyline and go on, whereas I think if Iris just sat at home on her laptop 90% of her storylines would stay the same, and that is frustrating. 

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Not enough. Ralph is a character who has been granted more development and stories than Iris (and the other members of Team Flash) and even with all that he's still defined by his role at STAR Labs as the team newest meta. I don't expect anything for Iris when their new golden boy's regular job is treated like this.

I'm not sure that's true but even if it was, his "hero's journey" from criminal douche bag to I AM ELONGATED MAN! is being done in loving detail, his every "I can't be a hero" freak out/tantrum gone over more than once, he's the NuBarry getting pep talks 3 times an episode (ok not quite but nearly) whereas we don't see Iris trying to adjust to "organising" Team Flash and people encouraging her, and Caitlin has no coherent KF storyline and it's being ignored or used as almost comic relief ( I'm hopeful Legends will do okay by Wally, at least Rip Hunter is being a nicer recruiter than usual). As of this week I feel like I know Zari's POV on LOT after less than 10 episodes than I do Iris's after 3.5 seasons and whilst I'm glad for Zari, I'm sad for Iris because that shouldn't happen to a charismatic actress who can handle the crumbs you give her well. 

To turn to Legends, I've seen a few comments recently that Sara granting Zari permission to try to rescue her brother means E1LL might return via the loopholes. First off, we don't know if Zari will succeed, she might crash and burn, at least until it's time for TA to leave. For another if the writers and execs wanted Sara to suddenly return LL, they could have done so earlier, Sara is only anti going back because she's tried and failed because they so far haven't wanted E1 resurrected or saved. It's not like the writers have suddenly realised they could save her via time travel. And whilst I have given up hope of anticipating what KC will end up doing next on Arrowverse shows, I can't see her fitting in well with the Legends permanently or going back as Middle Team Arrow with Dinah there, and I don't think JH is going anywhere either. 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Featherhat

[Cleanqueen]

The thing I honestly don't understand with Iris's role on the team now is that it suggests the team at Star Labs couldn't function for the 3 seasons prior to this. I understood the premise of why she stepped in to that role when Barry went in to the SF and the team needed some sort of leadership, but once Barry returned her role made no sense BECAUSE 1)it took away from what both Caitlin and Cisco used to do. In order to give her something, two other characters had to lsoe the roles they had for 3 seasons. Cisco plays babysitter to Harry and Caitlin is confused most of the time about her powers.

If the writers truly wanted to correct their mistakes with Iris , they would have used flashpoint to change her background to a cop. With them showing how well Iris worked in that filed on E2, I was truly shocked that they didn't take that opportunity with Flashpoint. Instead flashpoint was used to have her relationship with her dad be tumultuous only for her to forgive Barrry and never bring it up again.

I think this speedster storyline for Iris is making the trajectory they are taking with her character even more confusing. As of right now, it seems like Joe is the only one on this show with no powers. 

If they got rid of the set where she was the journalist, they could have easily had her be a journalist who operates from the comfort of her own home. They could show her at home more often writing for her online newspaper, it really isn't that hard. The flash writers just aren't invested in her as much as they are in their other characters. 

[Velocity23]

Quote

In the perfectly titled “Run, Iris, Run,” airing Tuesday, March 13, Team Flash confronts a new bus meta, Matthew AKA Melting Pot (Westworld‘s Leonardo Nam), with the ability to swap people’s DNA — which is precisely what he does when he transfers Barry’s super speed to Iris (played by Candice Patton).

In the wake of that switcheroo, and with a new threat unleashed on Central City, Barry must act as team leader while Iris takes on the mantle of superhero speedster.

http://tvline.com/2018/02/22/flash-season-4-episode-16-iris-speedster-suit-candice-patton/

[Cleanqueen]

OH BOY THIS IS A BAD STORYLINE.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Cleanqueen

[Morrigan2575]

2 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

OH BOY THIS IS A BAD STORYLINE.

 

I'm almost willing to bet the episode will still be ALL about Barry ??

Edited February 22, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

I don’t know why, but I wasn’t expecting Barry to be a key part of her suiting up. I was thinking another earth’s Iris or...something else. Should’ve known!

Edited February 22, 2018 by apinknightmare

[Primal Slayer]

I like the outfit but HATE the mask. Would've rather have had a doppelganger Iris.

[Sakura12]

So do we think Barry's going to be mopey and whiny about that or be supportive? 

[Morrigan2575]

Just now, Sakura12 said:

So do we think Barry's going to be mopey and whiny about that or be supportive? 

He'll be mopey and whiny but people will tell him he's being supportive. ?

[Starry]

It's not a storyline. Pretty sure it's not going to be permanent.

44 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

The thing I honestly don't understand with Iris's role on the team now is that it suggests the team at Star Labs couldn't function for the 3 seasons prior to this. I understood the premise of why she stepped in to that role when Barry went in to the SF and the team needed some sort of leadership, but once Barry returned her role made no sense BECAUSE 1)it took away from what both Caitlin and Cisco used to do. In order to give her something, two other characters had to lsoe the roles they had for 3 seasons. Cisco plays babysitter to Harry and Caitlin is confused most of the time about her powers.

Nah. Cisco and Caitlin are doing what they've been doing for years. They've never shown any leadership qualities whatsoever. The only thing Iris is taking away from them is maybe time at the comms. Cisco has been bickering with Harry since the latter showed up. Caitlin and her power struggle has been her s3 storyline. Iris is doing no tech/medical stuff. It's Ralph that is being afforded the hero arc Cisco and Caitlin could get.

If that wasn't clear before, I am no fan of Team Flash. I see this from another perspective. Iris isn't shown outside of STAR Labs because Team Flash has to get all the screen time.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Starry

[apinknightmare]

31 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

In the wake of that switcheroo, and with a new threat unleashed on Central City, Barry must act as team leader while Iris takes on the mantle of superhero speedster.

Best of luck, team. You’re all gonna die. 

[Featherhat]

15 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm almost willing to be the episode will still be ALL about Barry ??

Pretty much what I was thinking when I said it up thread. Lois and Clark's "UltraWoman" is one of the better examples of this trope, with some moping from Clarke (understandably) but  realising he was wrong and ultimately being supportive. Also I think they were still on shakey ground fron the Reveal fallout.

I hope that something similar happens here but again the Flash is 90% Barry even when Iris is the one with a death coming up. Or else it will be all "yes Iris definitely IS the Flash, go #feminism!" And absolutely no follow through the week after. As you might be able to tell I have no faith in The Flash writers.

[Starfish35]

31 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Lois and Clark's "UltraWoman" is one of the better examples of this trope

I was about to say - this reminds me of the Lois & Clark episode where Clark's powers get transferred to Lois and she becomes UltraWoman. :)

Edited February 22, 2018 by Starfish35

[Cleanqueen]

31 minutes ago, Starry said:

It's not a storyline. Pretty sure it's not going to be permanent.

Nah. Cisco and Caitlin are doing what they've been doing for years. They've never shown any leadership qualities whatsoever. The only thing Iris is taking away from them is maybe time at the comms. Cisco has been bickering with Harry since the latter showed up. Caitlin and her power struggle has been her s3 storyline. Iris is doing no tech/medical stuff. It's Ralph that is being afforded the hero arc Cisco and Caitlin could get.

If that wasn't clear before, I am no fan of Team Flash. I see this from another perspective. Iris isn't shown outside of STAR Labs because Team Flash has to get all the screen time.

It isn't just the comms, she's shown being the one to contact Felicity and deal with tech gadgets like cisco has been in the past. They've never really needed a team leader, everyone used to go and do their thing without having be told what to do. It makes them look incompetent. 

[Lady Calypso]

23 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

I hope that something similar happens here but again the Flash is 90% Barry even when Iris is the one with a death coming up. Or else it will be all "yes Iris definitely IS the Flash, go #feminism!" And absolutely no follow through the week after. As you might be able to tell I have no faith in The Flash writers.

Yep. This is somehow one of the only shows to treat a woman as an afterthought. Just like the joke of the all women's episode where women even fathoming to team up together was solely for a one Very Special Episode and Caitlin/Iris promptly continued to not be friends after that, I imagine a supposed Iris-centric episode will be more about Barry and Iris will only be treated like comedic relief where she gets to be zany with using her new temporary powers, much like what Cecile was reduced to with her pregnancy (to be fair, I only watched two clips of Cecile's telepathic powers stuff).

I'd love to see this give Iris something interesting to do where it progresses her as a character. But this is The Flash; they have a hard time writing for the women characters, especially in comedic situations. See: Jesse's breakup cube with Wally, Caitlin/Killer Frost being treated as a gag, and Iris' bridezilla moments. If they didn't give Iris good material for her death arc last season, I don't expect a one episode power transfer episode is going to work like I hope it would. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

25 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I was about to say - this reminds me of the Lois & Clark episode where Clark's powers get transferred to Lois and she becomes UltraWoman. :)

And Smallville BOTCHED their attempt to "show" Lois what it was like for Clark and then tried to break up with him, because he needed to be "on call 24/7 because he was a GOD." Or maybe the break up attempt happened in the series finale and Chloe had to shake some sense into her.

Help me out here, @BkWurm1! You know I fast forward ALL THINGS LOIS.

[Morrigan2575]

50 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I was about to say - this reminds me of the Lois & Clark episode where Clark's powers get transferred to Lois and she becomes UltraWoman. :)

I think Smallville did a S10 episode like that, must be a theme with Superman.

[catrox14]

How are these plot holes?

These are nitpicks and annoyances but each one of them are addressed like it or not.  Bad answers and bad plotting, maybe so. Stupid resolutions..sure.  But maybe I have a different notion of plot hole for a show like this.

 

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

15. EVERYONE LECTURES BARRY ON TIME TRAVEL WHEN THE LEGENDS DO IT EVERY WEEK

 

Except the Legends have rules and generally work within those rules.  They know what they are doing...ish.

 

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

13. OLIVER SHOULDN’T HAVE SURVIVED HIS FALL

Oliver was saved by someone and nursed back to health with time and healing herbs. How is that a plot hole?

 

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

8. WHY DIDN’T THEA DISCOVER THE ARROW CAVE UNDER HER OWN CLUB?
 

Thea didn't discover it because she never went down there and it was noisy the rest of the time. Is it stupid? Yes. Is it a plot hole? No. Because eventually Oliver showed it to her.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 Marc Guggenheim has also discussed getting told to add a scene for Carlos Valdes at the last minute during season three of Arrow (notably, all four Arrowverse shows later completely ignored the implications of that scene). It has happened.

I don't remember this. Could someone refresh my memory?

 

55 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And Smallville BOTCHED their attempt to "show" Lois what it was like for Clark and then tried to break up with him, because he needed to be "on call 24/7 because he was a GOD." Or maybe the break up attempt happened in the series finale and Chloe had to shake some sense into her.

Help me out here, @BkWurm1! You know I fast forward ALL THINGS LOIS.

Yeah, in Season 10 in the episode right before the two part finale, Jor-El decides to randomly give Clark's power to Lois so she can better understand Clark.  Unlike in Lois&Clark where Lois's take away from having Clark's powers was how hard it was for Clark and how much more she appreciated what he really did and what a weight it was on him to not be able to always save everyone which then brought them closer and made Lois even more supportive, Lois on Smallville decided Clark shouldn't be wasting his time on a relationship because he should be the Blur 24/7 and dumps him and thinks she's making the world a better place. 

It KILLED me that they brought in Chloe in the next episode and had her explain to Lois that Clark wasn't a god and that he needed to have a real life and love and support and a break sometimes from saving the world.  Agh!  Just rub it in right to the end how unsuited the Lois and Clark on Smallville were for each other.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

Is there a reason aside from the meta why Flash would want Barry and Iris to swap? I get when Arrow did it with Felicity and Oliver with Helix and this season in reversal. It was about their relationship. Is there a similar need for Iris and Barry? 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

Nah. Cisco and Caitlin are doing what they've been doing for years. They've never shown any leadership qualities whatsoever.

During Flashpoint, Cisco was depicted as the extraordinarily successful leader of Star Labs. Even leaving that aside, other scenes have shown him in a leadership role at Star Labs prior to the particle explosion. He's also taken on leadership roles during the crossover episodes, and he's often the one to make the command decisions out on field missions - something he's continued to do with Iris as team leader. That role was one of the reasons he kept squabbling with Harry.  I'll add that Flash essentially had to create a fight between Cisco and Ralph this season in order to force Iris to step up and make a decision - in previous seasons, Cisco would have taken over and tried to come up with some sort of plan to save both Caitlin and Barry. I agree that it doesn't seem to be his main thing, but I think that claiming that he's never shown any leadership qualities whatsoever is a major misreading of Flash during seasons two and three.

Caitlin was also shown taking a leadership/management role at Star Labs before the explosion. She's also taken on leadership roles during the crossover episodes and occasionally during missions. Killer Frost has definitely been shown to have leadership potential.

[quarks]

38 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I don't remember this. Could someone refresh my memory?

 

He mentioned it during one of Arrow's post season 3 interviews. The Arrow season 3 Blu-Rays also explain that the original plan for the season 3 finale didn't include Barry at all - to the point where they were rehearsing the elaborate, non-Barry-saves-the-day-fight-scene right up to a couple days before filming. There's some footage of the rehearsals. 

[BkWurm1]

44 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Is there a reason aside from the meta why Flash would want Barry and Iris to swap? I get when Arrow did it with Felicity and Oliver with Helix and this season in reversal. It was about their relationship. Is there a similar need for Iris and Barry? 

Given that they specifically mentioned having Barry take over as leader while Iris is off flashing, I think they are going to use the episode to address just what I've been complaining about, how Iris is leader in name only and this will be the episode the "proves" how hard it is to be leader and how great and wonderful Iris is at it or at least get Barry to appreciate her contribution more.  And maybe the episode will help actually better establish Iris as leader.  I though would have preferred her just being a good leader throughout the season.  I will try and reserve my judgment for now until I've seen it.  

15 minutes ago, quarks said:

He mentioned it during one of Arrow's post season 3 interviews. The Arrow season 3 Blu-Rays also explain that the original plan for the season 3 finale didn't include Barry at all - to the point where they were rehearsing the elaborate, non-Barry-saves-the-day-fight-scene right up to a couple days before filming. There's some footage of the rehearsals. 

Thank you, I don't think I knew all of that, but I meant, what scene with Cisco happened in season three that was then ignored after that?  

[Featherhat]

49 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Is there a reason aside from the meta why Flash would want Barry and Iris to swap? I get when Arrow did it with Felicity and Oliver with Helix and this season in reversal. It was about their relationship. Is there a similar need for Iris and Barry? 

At least an attempt at a similar thing? They both understand each others roles better and how HARD they are and declare They Are The Flash Together (and it goes right back to normal next episode)?

As frustrating as that would be (because I don't think it would be as good as either Reversal or Ultrawoman) it's better than 90% Barry angsting about it and then Joe also agreeing with him. Unless they break out the #feminism again, then nothing will save it.

Or just because they promised to give CP something cool to do, and it might be designed to shut the conversations we've just been having about her up as well.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Featherhat

[Morrigan2575]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

He mentioned it during one of Arrow's post season 3 interviews. The Arrow season 3 Blu-Rays also explain that the original plan for the season 3 finale didn't include Barry at all - to the point where they were rehearsing the elaborate, non-Barry-saves-the-day-fight-scene right up to a couple days before filming. There's some footage of the rehearsals. 

I remember this, it's why Katana was separated from the group (and never seen again). She was supposed to rescue everyone but, at the last minute CW ordered a Flash crossover and we ended up with Flash saves the day.

[Chaser]

Why would Iris need to learn about being a superhero? I thought her and Barry are The Flash.