Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[tofutan]

10 hours ago, Oreo2234 said:

So it looks like Winn is in the crossover after all. Someone who seemed to have some inside info claimed he wasn't.

Aren't they shooting the Supergirl section of the Crossover yet? BTS people have talked about some people who will be in the Supergirl section, but not actually cross over to Barry's world. 

I really hope those shots aren't from the actual wedding. I can see the benefits of a smaller wedding, but this seems like way to low key and on the fly for my tastes. Like, are they still wearing their funeral clothes? 

Edited October 11, 2017 by tofutan

[Starfish35]

Yeah I think it was mentioned that Winn appears briefly at the beginning, but he doesn't come over to Earth-1.

Which was disappointing actually.  There's several things I'm disappointed about regarding the crossover, but one of them is that I was hoping for more of the Supergirl cast in the crossover than we got last year.  I mean, I'm grateful that Alex is being included, but I was hoping for J'onn and Winn at least, and maybe even Lena and James.  

[tennisgurl]

I hope the double wedding isn't what we are actually seeing. I think after all the build up with these couples, we need something really meaningful for a full on wedding. 

I wish Winn would come to Earth-1. He and Cisco would be instant best friends. Also, thought the new Supergirl episode was alright. Not awful, but not blowing my mind or anything. I actually like Mon-El more than others, and he and Kara can be cute sometimes, even I got so sick of him hogging so much screen time (taking time away from the rest of the cast, including Kara herself), and how Kara only seemed to be obsessing about this guy. Even now she spent the whole episode being angsty about him. Hopefully we can get a damn break soon, and get a storyline for some of the rest of the cast. Good storylines. 

Am I pathetic for being super pumped about all the super shows coming back to TV? I know I've been let down by them before, but damn it, I love them!

[tofutan]

I don't think that we can really avoid the angst. I think the show pretty much announced what their plan was for Supergirl's character arc with Cat's big speech at the end of last season. 

Quote

The thing that makes women strong, is that we have the guts to be vulnerable. We have the ability to feel the depths of our emotion, and we know that we will walk through it to the other side. 

I just hope it's what they promised, that they will use this to actually explore Kara's abandonment issues over Krypton and her isolatedness growing up on earth. I don't mind it, because to me those were generally the most poignant moments of season 1. Season 1 Kara did a lot of crying and screaming, so to me she was never just a happy, fluffy, uplifting character on the show. And she's also a pretty tragic and angsty character in the current comic interpretation as well. 

I can understand why people might not want to explore her tragic side simply out of preference but this is not coming out of thin air, either on the show or in the comics. 

For the record, I think Kara's constant dreaming of Mon-El isn't natural coming from herself. Since we have seen Reign share the same dream of Alura, I think those dreams are being caused by something. 

[Mellowyellow]

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Am I pathetic for being super pumped about all the super shows coming back to TV? I know I've been let down by them before, but damn it, I love them!

Nooooo totally not!!!! I'm super excited too!!!!!

And Madam Secretary, Lethal Weapon and Fresh Off the Boat! OMG I can stop listening to reality TV now!!!!!

[tofutan]

Wow, so Iris really had no plan other than to damsel herself? I kept waiting for it to be like a ruse, where as soon as Barry comes and confronts the baddie, she knocks the baddie out with some weapon. And all we saw of leader!Iris it seems was everybody going against her orders, working in secret to bring Barry back. Made her look like little Miss Buzzkill. 

The scene with the windmills was pretty cool looking, and Barry saving Iris and finally talking to her was satisfying, but yeah everything before that was ... weird on a meta level. And all that tongue bathing assuring everybody that Barry is the fastest again. 

So many bad frost puns. So much Caitlyn focus. 

[statsgirl]

One of the big problems I have with Mon El is that their OTP makes Kara racist.  It was racist when she told James that she couldn't be with him because he's not an alien and it was racist last night when she said she's glad she's not human.  It's not a good look on her.

[tennisgurl]

I actually liked the new Flash episode. We had lots of good stuff with Iris, some fun banter and action, solid emotions, and it looks like the return of Happy Barry, and putting Angsty Barry on ice. 

[tofutan]

19 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

One of the big problems I have with Mon El is that their OTP makes Kara racist.  It was racist when she told James that she couldn't be with him because he's not an alien and it was racist last night when she said she's glad she's not human.  It's not a good look on her.

I'm not convinced that that won't be addressed. Kreisberg talked about this season being about Kara embracing her human destiny. I think we are clearly meant to see Kara "me so Kryptonian" as wrong and something she has to get over. This was already a theme in season 2, when it was Kryptonians versus Daxamites. People have been waiting for some bigger, more in depth "well, the Kryptonians are not as pure as Kara likes to idolize them" arc. So maybe it's finally happening. Yes, we have always had traces of it, like s1 with Astra's story, s2 where Kara finds out about her father's work on weapons of mass destruction and questioning in conversation with Mon-El whether trying to be "good Kryptonians" might have led her parents astray. But they haven't actually talked in more detail about it and how screwed up Kryptonian society actually was. 

Kryptonians being fairly "I'm so superior" racist against other species is absolutely a theme in the comics. We also saw it on Smallville via Jor-El. It makes sense to me that Kara might have more of a tendency towards falling into it because she actually lived as part of Kryptonian society, while Clark never did. We might see it be delved in deeper this season with the story of Reign and who created her, especially now that they have Alura again (they said they had to recast because they realized they had Alura in some form in almost every episode). 

It's also absolutely a theme in the New 52 Supergirl comics, the only comics the Reign character appears in. 

(for the record, based on what I've seen so far of season 3, I'm still not convinced that this arc will necessarily end with happily ever after Kara/Mon-El and that his return will even come close to resolving the issues she has. All this talk about embracing her human destiny and coming out on the other side could just as well be pointing towards a getting over him story, where they part as friends and he goes off heroing somewhere else with the Legion of Super Heroes. Or maybe they won't be able to resist bringing on Brainiac5 at some point after all. I wish people would realize that there can be a middle ground between Mon-El meaning nothing to Kara (something that clearly isn't happening) and Mon-El meaning everything. I for one still see enough signs to think that at the very least Kara's issues this season are going to be a lot more layered than just being lovesick)

Edited October 11, 2017 by tofutan

[Primal Slayer]

Sara's whole brief storyline at the beginning of the premiere made no sense besides just being for cheap laughs.

[Sakura12]

LoT had a great episode. But I agree making Sara work at a Bed, Bath and Beyond store makes no sense. A former assassin should not be dealing with customers. If Sara needed a job she probably would've gone back to bar tending or being a bouncer or something where she could use her skills. Sara would definitely be looking out for all the women being harassed by men at clubs. 

The Flash was okay, however LoT is still the only show that knows how to use all their characters well. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT had a great episode. But I agree making Sara work at a Bed, Bath and Beyond store makes no sense. A former assassin should not be dealing with customers. If Sara needed a job she probably would've gone back to bar tending or being a bouncer or something where she could use her skills. Sara would definitely be looking out for all the women being harassed by men at clubs. 

Not to mention that I highly doubt she'd stick around in Central City. Why wouldnt she go back to Star City? 

Legends was definitely fun but I feel like they are making it into brainless fun. Everyone was severely dumbed down.

[scarynikki12]

Sara was in Star City, she just didn’t interact onscreen with any Arrow characters. 

[statsgirl]

Sara was in Star City along with Ray and Nate.  They went to Central City to get the Wave Rider fixed.

Dysplasia is an abnormal growth of cells, not something that would cause Julius Caesar to speak with a British accent.  Its a funny episode though.

I haven't finished watching but am I supposed to believe that Felicity ran Palmer Tech into the ground?

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Sara was in Star City, she just didn’t interact onscreen with any Arrow characters. 

That makes it even worse.

[Sakura12]

Well since Arrow pretty much forgot Sara existed last season, it didn't bother me that she didn't see any of them. Plus aren't they supposed to be "dead" for their cliffhanger, LoT couldn't ruin that non surprise for people who watch Arrow. 

[statsgirl]

7 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

LoT couldn't ruin that non surprise for people who watch Arrow. 

But The Flash could.

"Arubicon" was funny.

[quarks]

Somebody has got to explain to me why Nate got to join Team Flash but Sara and Ray didn't get to go back to Team Arrow.

And "Team Arrow is supposed to be dead" is not that explanation, since Oliver is still around. At the very least, Sara could have told Oliver that really, as mayor, he needs to focus on bringing jobs into Star City so that former assassins aren't reduced to working hated retail jobs. 

[scarynikki12]

Sara did have a line about vigilantes needing to pay bills so I took that as her saying she was going on patrol at night like she used to. 

[Primal Slayer]

11 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Well since Arrow pretty much forgot Sara existed last season, it didn't bother me that she didn't see any of them. Plus aren't they supposed to be "dead" for their cliffhanger, LoT couldn't ruin that non surprise for people who watch Arrow. 

Green Arrow and Black Canary are very alive so they could've included a scene with them very easily. And The Flash already spoiled things so why not LoT?

[Sakura12]

6 minutes ago, quarks said:

Somebody has got to explain to me why Nate got to join Team Flash but Sara and Ray didn't get to go back to Team Arrow.

And "Team Arrow is supposed to be dead" is not that explanation, since Oliver is still around. At the very least, Sara could have told Oliver that really, as mayor, he needs to focus on bringing jobs into Star City so that former assassins aren't reduced to working hated retail jobs. 

Because the writers have a hard-on for Nate and they thought it would be funny to show Sara and Ray hating their lives. 

I'll go with @scarynikki12 and think that Sara was beating up bad guys at night. 

[tennisgurl]

LoT was fun as always, but I do question a few characterization choices. Everyone seemed a little bit slower on the uptake than usual, and like everyone else, I dont know why they had Sara working at some crappy retail store. I guess the jerk manager was right about being declared dead twice looking bad on a resume! Maybe she was fighting crime on the side? Without texting Oliver I guess? You would think she or Ray would have looked up Team Arrow to see if they needed backup, considering how miserable they seemed to be. And Rip has seemingly become a total asshole who has even more disdain than usual for his former teammates, and turned his ship into a training simulator. Weird. 

Still a fun episode though, and its still the only Arrowverse show that really knows how to use an ensemble cast. 

[insomniadreams88]

Regarding tonight’s LoT:

1) I kept waiting for it to spoil Arrow characters being alive. At least Lance. Especially after The Flash spoiled Felicity and Curtis. 

2) I was offended by the line about Felicity running PT into the ground. 

3) Stein is definitely not going to make it home for his grandchild’s birth, is he? (And I’d think that even without the crossover spoilers)

[Primal Slayer]

Giving Sara a scene with Oliver fighting some bad guys with Oliver saying something like "you know I can get you a better job" and Sara saying something to the tune of "I hate it but I enjoy the quiet day life" and then flashing to her actual job would've been sooo much better then what we got.

[Mellowyellow]

10 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Regarding tonight’s LoT:

2) I was offended by the line about Felicity running PT into the ground. 

 

Can you tell me who said it? 

[ruby24]

The diapers line on The Flash was foreshadowing the Tornado Twins and they made it really obvious. For the first time I actually think they really will have the babies on the show. 

[statsgirl]

I think Sara working at Sinks, Showers and Stuff was MG trying to be funny with the Olicity Bed Bath and Beyond stuff.

I didn't mind no Arrow characters showing up (but once again, there is a Flash mini-crossover with Nate of all people being a superhero but Arrow never gets what Flash gets)* but I really resented the implication that Felicity ran PT into the ground.  I kept hoping for a line that it was some other woman Ray left PT to.

7 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Can you tell me who said it? 

The guy Ray worked for in the beginning.  He said that's why Ray had to work for a dating app company because he left his company to a woman who ran it into the ground.

Poor Mrs. Stein.  Martin is going to go back for the birth of his first grandchild but his family is on the Wave Rider.

*There's a famous experiment with capuchin monkeys where for the same task one monkey was given cucumber and the other was given more valuable grapes for the same task.   I watched with my daughter who said Flash always gets the grapes and Arrow the cucumber.

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, ruby24 said:

The diapers line on The Flash was foreshadowing the Tornado Twins and they made it really obvious. For the first time I actually think they really will have the babies on the show. 

Aren't the Tornado Twins, Wallys kids though? I know they like to take from Wally but that just crosses the line lol.

[Mellowyellow]

Thanks @statsgirl! I was freaking out it was Ray!!!!! Would quit watching if it was!

[SmallScreenDiva]

22 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

its still the only Arrowverse show that really knows how to use an ensemble cast. 

It's the only Arrowverse show that is actually an ensemble. I wish Arrow would handle it's bloated cast better but it's still very much Oliver's show. Just as The Flash is Barry's. 

[ruby24]

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Aren't the Tornado Twins, Wallys kids though? I know they like to take from Wally but that just crosses the line lol.

No, they're Barry and Iris's kids. Don and Dawn Allen (not great names, I know, lol).

Edited October 11, 2017 by ruby24

[Delphi]

More like a bunch of dick bags of old guys tried to circumvent every single thing the ceo wanted and fucked there company.   But sure,  let's blame the genius hacker girl. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

14 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The guy Ray worked for in the beginning.  He said that's why Ray had to work for a dating app company because he left his company to a woman who ran it into the ground.

Is this supposed to the same universe as Arrow's? That's such a weird detail to include considering Felicity is supposed to start her own company on Arrow.

[Chaser]

10 minutes ago, Delphi said:

More like a bunch of dick bags of old guys tried to circumvent every single thing the ceo wanted and fucked there company.   But sure,  let's blame the genius hacker girl. 

And in the end they 'fired' her and locked her out of the company over a season ago.

Basically what LOT are saying is that the board publicly threw it all on her. 

Great. How timely. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Chaser

[JamieLynn832002]

21 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Is this supposed to the same universe as Arrow's? That's such a weird detail to include considering Felicity is supposed to start her own company on Arrow.

I'm not sure but it always has been before. I'm assuming it was supposed to come off more douchy-jackass than actual fact but yeah, it was weird. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by JamieLynn832002

[statsgirl]

In my headcanon, it was part of time being broken that PT failed under Felicity.   But it's such an unnecessary jab at her.  (I know if I complain to MG in a tweet, he'll say I'm reacting like that because I have no sense of humour.)

[scarynikki12]

13 minutes ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Is this supposed to the same universe as Arrow's?

Yes.  They travel through time but only in Earth 1.

I think they didn't have Sara interact or reference any of the Arrow characters in part to keep the "suspense" of the last season finale alive but also because they didn't necessarily need them.  I love watching Sara and Oliver fighting side by side, so I wouldn't have said no if they'd shown that, but I think they wanted to drive it home how unsatisfied Sara feels when she's not Captain Lance of the Legends.  Fighting crime with Oliver wouldn't be a good way to show these feelings but working in retail for a guy like that certainly makes it clear. 

[Miss Dee]

Other than the meta reasons, I assumed Sara was making her life suck on purpose because she felt guilty and responsible for getting the Legends disbanded.

[tofutan]

I predict that the ratings of Flash will suffer less than the other shows because Flash has always been the darling. I'm gonna be positive and predict that Legends will profit from that (maybe that's why they had Kid Flash on the premiere, rather than of Team Arrow, to reward people who stick around after Flash). Arrow is gonna be interesting to me, because it fends alone. 

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Sara was in Star City along with Ray and Nate.  They went to Central City to get the Wave Rider fixed.

Dysplasia is an abnormal growth of cells, not something that would cause Julius Caesar to speak with a British accent.  Its a funny episode though.

I haven't finished watching but am I supposed to believe that Felicity ran Palmer Tech into the ground?

Ray was actually in Silicon Valley and said he was something like the most popular vigilantee in his town (or second most, it was after Nate said his bit of being second most popular and I think Ray said me too).

Ray's boss was clearly a shortsighted idiot so I don't take his assessment on what happened with his company as fact.  

5 hours ago, quarks said:

Somebody has got to explain to me why Nate got to join Team Flash but Sara and Ray didn't get to go back to Team Arrow.

And "Team Arrow is supposed to be dead" is not that explanation, since Oliver is still around. At the very least, Sara could have told Oliver that really, as mayor, he needs to focus on bringing jobs into Star City so that former assassins aren't reduced to working hated retail jobs. 

Sara did mention that even a vigilante needed to pay her bills so I'm assuming unless they say otherwise that Sara did work with Team Arrow over the summer or at least was there in Star City helping out on her own.    

4 hours ago, Delphi said:

More like a bunch of dick bags of old guys tried to circumvent every single thing the ceo wanted and fucked there company.   But sure,  let's blame the genius hacker girl. 

1

Yeah, this.  When Felicity was fired, the company was not suffering. She saved and turned around the company with that battery of Curtis's that more than fixed everything with the bottom line and the chip Curtis created Palmer Tech was going to sell for a hugely exorbitant amount and the board fired Felicity BEFORE she could make the company price the tech within reach of anyone that needed it.  So if the company got ran into the ground, it was what happened AFTER she was gone.  After all, Curtis quit once she was gone so Palmer Tech lost its golden goose.  

The idiot obsessed with his dating app seems like the type to not get his facts straight but now that they put the claim out there in the universe, I'm going to NEED it addressed and refuted on Arrow.  Thankfully with Felicity starting up her new business, it seems like that might actually happen.    

[Featherhat]

Weren't they supposed to be trying to get PB for a crossover, maybe that didn't work out so we didn't get Quentin. I guess they just wanted to joke about Sara and Ray to be working shitty retail/app jobs and any Team Arrow stuff would have interfered with that, though I am headcanoning that she'd at least checked in with her Dad after everything even if she was solo vigilanting. And maybe they want to keep their options open for Sara knowing or not about BS and/or Nu!BC. I'm not sure Sara was ever officially declared dead the 2nd time and did I blank on Ray being legally resurrected? So along with the Felicity thing, I'm just going to put it into the "plot over road character moments" things. It would also have been nice to see Clarissa, especially if spoilers are true. 

A fun first episode though, even if I did want to kick Rip's hypocritical ass and I'm not sure he'd have ever shut Gideon down completely. Maybe we'll get more to the story as the season goes on.

[JamieLynn832002]

I didn't think Sara was declared dead the second time either. I was never 100% sure if Ray was still officially dead or not, the last we'd been definitively told on Arrow he was but that was some time before he left and I don't remember LoT ever addressing it.

[Velocity23]

So did the Flash imply that Barry will sometime in the future have to defend himself in a court of law for killing someone?

“Your Honor, I’m innocent. I didn’t do this! I didn’t kill anyone!”

[bijoux]

I'm not sure Sara was ever legally proclaimed to be alive after she showed up in season 2. I know she had a job and there was that welcome home party at the Queen mansion, but that's it.

[BkWurm1]

I assume Sara was legally alive after season two.  I don't think her dadthe cop or her sister the lawyer would let her ignore that.  Ray though last we heard was still playing dead so I guess he undid that over the hiatus.  Funny how so many people thought dead in Star City keep coming back alive.  Seriously, I doubt people would even look twice at LL walking around town.  

[Sakura12]

I don't think Sara was declared dead the second time since they just threw her in her old grave and didn't even tell Quentin. 

Disappearing without a trace for years at a time might make it hard for her to get a job. Still would have made more sense for Sara to be a bartender or bouncer at a club. I suppose she could be punishing herself by working retail. With that brutal day dream she had of killing her boss retail seems like a bad idea for a former assassin to choose. 

If LoT separating Sara from Arrow means we keep Laurel off the show I'm all for it. 

[tofutan]

First picture of Alex and Sara shooting together. 

[quarks]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

No, they're Barry and Iris's kids. Don and Dawn Allen (not great names, I know, lol).

No, Primal Slayer is correct. In current continuity they are Jai and Iris West, kids of Wally and Linda. Though since Flash has never shown a single hint of putting Wally and Linda together, I suspect the reference was to the previous Tornado Twins, Don and Dawn Allen, who are Barry and Iris' kids - born and raised in the 30th century. 

[Featherhat]

I'm actually interested in the Sara/Alex apparent fling despite having issues with the rumoured set up and the "of course they'll have their two lesbian/bi characters hook up. 

Sara was publically alive in S2 after Heir to the Demon but we have no idea what she told the court/press about where she had been. She bartended for Verdant for a few weeks, months? and then disappeared again and was definitely not declared dead in S3 and even if Quentin had wanted to do so after he found out, he couldn't exactly tell people what happened or how she was suddenly alive again. So sketchy job history for a decade and 1 public resurrection from the dead could certainly make it hard to get a job but any bouncer/body guard job would have been glad to have her once she demonstrated her skills, but it's less funny than having Sara in a hellish retail job. 

19 minutes ago, quarks said:

No, Primal Slayer is correct. In current continuity they are Jai and Iris West, kids of Wally and Linda. Though since Flash has never shown a single hint of putting Wally and Linda together, I suspect the reference was to the previous Tornado Twins, Don and Dawn Allen, who are Barry and Iris' kids - born and raised in the 30th century. 

That is one of the better things about Flash's use of time travel, they can use their future kids/grandkid/alternate timeline kids if Barry effs the timeline up again but don't have to have babies hanging around the show. I'm finding it really hard to picture Barry dealing with babies any time soon. I would say the same about LOT but that show doesn't really deal in relationships/babies much. Though I guess depending on what if anything happens with Lily Stein and her kid and/or Amaya's storyline all 4 shows could end up with "dealing with the kids" storylines in the next couple of years. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Featherhat

[quarks]

Just now, Featherhat said:

That is one of the better things about Flash's use of time travel, they can use their future kids/grandkid/alternate timeline kids if Barry effs the timeline up again but don't have to have babies hanging around the show. I'm finding it really hard to picture Barry dealing with babies any time soon. Depending on what if anything happens with Lily Stein and her kid all 4 shows could end up with "dealing with the kids" storylines in the next couple of years. 

Yeah, so far, with the occasional exception of Arrow, all four shows have generally avoided adding kids for whatever reason. (Hint: budget!) Given that Arrow ended up having to go through three different small kids for baby Sara, and that William has not exactly been greeted by Arrow fans with YAY LET'S SEE MORE OF KIDNAPPED KID I don't think that Flash will be rushing to add kids to their show either. I took that as a cute hint and a nice moment for Westallen fans, but not as a hint that Flash will be adding small stormy twins to the show on a full time basis.